JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS (Sub Committee on Women's Participation in Politics) díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Jun 2009

Experiences in Public Life: Discussion.

Chairman

I am delighted to welcome Ms Gemma Hussey, Ms Liz O'Donnell and Ms Niamh Bhreathnach. Each of them has a unique experience of political life and the sub-committee is grateful to them for taking time to share this with us this afternoon. In a future meeting we will hear from Professor Yvonne Galligan from Queen's University Belfast. Senator Ivana Bacik has been appointed rapporteur to the sub-committee and will prepare a report for it following our consideration of the various issues involved. I thank so many former lady Members for attending today in the Visitors Gallery.

I propose that each of our guests make a brief opening statement, to be followed by a question and answer session.

Ms Gemma Hussey

I congratulate the sub-committee for taking this matter up. It has been a long time coming but better late than never and we are delighted to be here. I am hoping the sub-committee will pursue this subject and that Government and political parties will be faced with their responsibility to acknowledge our failures and take steps to begin real reform. The sub-committee will undoubtedly inform itself about the many countries that have faced up to opposition and taken steps, legislative and voluntary, to get women into parliament and government. They did so because they knew countries are weaker without women.

The sub-committee asked us to say some words about our own experiences. I entered politics because of the great work of Margaret Waugh who founded the Women's Political Association in 1970. I had the great privilege to be elected chair in 1972. There are people in this room who were also involved in that organisation. We changed its name to the Women's Political Association from the Women's Progressive Association as we wanted to call a spade a spade. The WPP was founded to address the catastrophic lack of women in politics. Over a period of years many women put in a huge amount of work and in the 1980s it appeared as if that work was paying off as the number of women in the Dáil and Seanad increased. By 1990 with the election of Mary Robinson as President of Ireland, it seemed to augur well that the situation would further improve. Unfortunately, that did not happen. There are many reasons for that but certainly apathy set in. In the absence of any programme from any Government or real initiatives from any political party, nothing improved and stagnation occurred. The old stereotypes reasserted themselves and the Irish legacy of conservatism and control over women by other bodies, notably church and State, has still not been shaken off.

Ireland, alas, is among the worst countries in the world for women's participation in public life which offends against the idea of real democracy. We all know that women bring different life experiences, priorities, knowledge and a different style of decision-making. People like me and others who are present, going back to the time I went into Government, were in such small numbers that we did not have the critical mass to change the nature and style of politics, which is what needs to be done.

Scandinavia and other countries have achieved that critical mass. It is not only in Europe that countries have taken major steps to increase the number of women in politics. Where this happens, the style of politics changes and the social provisions for the population change. Most of the countries of Scandinavia are models of modern democracy. It is no accident that they are ruled 50:50 by men and women.

I was told an interesting story the other day by a woman banker who was not very senior but had heard I was appearing before the committee. She said that in terms of banks and property companies rampant testosterone played no small part in the madness of the Celtic tiger years. Greed and fear was played out in deals and loans. She asked where were the women in the key Ministries and in the political bodies who were supposed to control the situation on behalf of the people. The answer, of course, is that there were no women in the key roles in those top Ministries and bodies.

Research on countries that have made the breakthrough shows that the best way to achieve a breakthrough is to get a coalition of leadership from politics, women already in politics, civil society organisations and feminist organisations, all of which can come together and play a part. The matter of a quota, a word which is so frightening to Irish people, has to be examined. Where quotas have worked, they have done much to bring women forward in politics. Reserve seats have to be looked at as well as penalties and sanctions on parties who do not obey the rules. This was done to great effect in France which has made great breakthroughs. This issue has to be worked from the top. That is the reason I am delighted the committee is taking on this work on which I wish it well. This may be day one of a breakthrough for women in Ireland and for Ireland itself.

Ms Liz O’Donnell

I thank the Chairman, Deputies, Senators, and former Members of the Oireachtas. Given the context in which we are invited to appear before the committee, it is important that I would admit that my principal motivation in going into politics was because I saw the dearth of women in public life. Although I had been active in the Women's Political Association and had worked as a volunteer on Mary Robinson's election campaign and was a fully qualified lawyer I would not have crossed the bridge into politics unless I had been persuaded and facilitated by the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney, who was then a Minister of State. The issue of confidence has to be looked at. There are many women in society who are active in their own professions, such as health, medicine, engineering, architecture and so on, yet the breakthrough has not come about in terms of equality of participation for women in politics. I am pleased the committee, perhaps for the first time, is looking at this particular issue. Those of us who are committed to the participation of women in politics and see the need for women at the highest level of public policy making have been talking about this for years but it is important that it comes into this forum, the democratic forum, for such debate.

It might be said by some at this time of huge social economic trauma in Ireland, with the Government otherwise occupied with very compelling matters of the day in terms of rebuilding our society, that it is self-indulgent of us to talk about the participation of women in politics but as Ms Hussey has said there has never been a more important time for the participation of women at the highest level, if as a society and a body politic we are to rebuild our institutions and the economic and regulatory frameworks. That is what we are charged with as a society. There has never been a more important time to allow women have an input into that rebuilding of our institutions and the new regulatory frameworks. On all the boards that are being established, there is a huge talent bank of women, from all professions and none, working in the voluntary sector and in all parts of Irish life who should be involved with the rebuilding of our economic and social structures.

That was my story. I joined a party in which there was a space for me. I did not come from a political background and neither do many women. Not many women are actively involved in traditional political parties but I was facilitated and joined a party which had space for me. This brings me to the point that women have better opportunities in small parties. The facts bear this out. The smaller parties in the Oireachtas — my party sadly demised — the Labour Party, Sinn Féin and the Green Party have more space for women because there is the possibility of being offered a nomination to run for a winnable seat, not as a sweeper for other candidates, but to get elected in one's own right. The obstacle for women lies with the nomination process. In smaller parties, because there is space, one does not have to unseat a man to be given a nomination. That is where there are opportunities for women.

In the larger traditional parties, such as Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, the dearth of women is astonishing in a modern progressive democracy. Those parties, as large organisations, have to look at their institutional procedures for facilitating women to get on tickets. That is where the problem lies. Once women get past the convention and are nominated they do very well. The difficulty is in getting a nomination for a winnable seat. That is where quotas come in, an issue we can discuss later. I am sure there will be questions about the quota system. I would be loth to put any quota or requirement by law on the electorate. If quotas were to be placed that should be done within political parties themselves to ensure they put forward women for election rather than requiring the electorate to elect, say, two women out of every constituency. The public should be able to vote for whoever they wish, free of any gender bias, but there should be an onus on the political parties to ensure the electorate is offered the choice to vote for women candidates in elections.

The women who preceded us in the Oireachtas did tremendous work. Many women politicians in this House, although there have been few, such as Nuala Fennell, Gemma Hussey and Monica Barnes, set the standard and broke all of the rules at the time. Younger women entering politics forget the contribution those women made to the body politic in what was a lonely time for women in politics.

As I am giving testimony having served as a woman Minister of State and Deputy for 15 years in the Dáil, in terms of a workplace, I never experienced any discrimination or even sexist attitudes from party colleagues, men or women. It is important to put on the record that I was always treated with courtesy, equality and respect by every Member of the House.

There are possibly ways in which the political culture and the life of a politician could be tweaked to make this career more family friendly for all of us, not only women, but it is, in the main, a profession that is tailor-made for men as it currently stands. It is a difficult terrain for women, particularly women with small children. I do not know how one overcomes that. It is about choices and giving people as many choices as possible in a modern civilised society, bearing in mind the time that a woman needs to be with children, in terms of intensity of care when children are young, is a very short period in a woman's working life. As in other professions, concessions and allowances should be made for the divided loyalties of younger women politicians who are mothers of small children. I look forward to questions from members.

Ms Niamh Bhreathnach

I endorse the comments made on the welcome we were given by the Chairman on the occasion of this opportunity to share our experiences with the committee. I wish the committee well in its work. We all have a vested interest in positive outcomes emerging from its deliberations.

I will start by telling my story of how I became very involved in the participation of women in the Labour Party. Some 35% of Labour Party Deputies are women. One might ask whether that is down to luck or planning. I would respond by saying that we worked very hard to achieve that. We all share an experience with the WPA. Having joined it and being encouraged by it to enter party politics, I chose the Labour Party because the equality document, for which we can give Mary Robinson a share of the credit for its preparation, was very inspiring. I took up my membership of the party with enthusiasm. When I arrived at a constituency branch office in Dún Laoghaire the party did not have one woman Deputy in the Dáil or one woman Senator in the Seanad, nor did it have a woman on the platform at its annual conference. We had this wonderful document with great aspirations between its two brown covers, funded by Socialist International Women, but we still had not committed ourselves to moving from the policy to the practical.

We got courage and confidence from the WPA. I come from a generation who were educated, as my mother would say, above our station. It was not enough for me to go to meetings and find that the men were giving all the answers. We began to search the documentation that was available through our membership of Socialist International Women and discovered that in Chile it had passed a resolution that committed all branches of Socialist International Women to commit themselves to working for women. We took that sentence and that document and began to work on how the Labour Party could put that into practice.

We have a PR system. I agree with Liz O'Donnell when she said the challenge lies with the parties. With our political system, we cannot slot into what the French or the Argentinians did. Considerable research has been done on this and it is available to the committee. I have Yvonne Galligan's extract and I thank the committee for sending me that. We committed ourselves to slotting women into the party organisation at branch and constituency level because they were not very visible in the organisation. Ten years of work went into this. It probably took that long for women to be encouraged and to be seen to get support. We took the reserve seats on the national executive. I was one the people who won one of the first reserve seats. The time one could retain that seat was limited and then one had to participate in the general contest. Through that kind of work on the executive and in our constituencies, the gender of those with seats on the platform at the party's annual conference began to change. More women addressed the conference and contested the officerships, not only the seats, on the national executive. We were given a huge boost when the Labour Party was in a position to nominate Mary Robinson as a presidential candidate and the outcome of that election was successful. We were working well and to be a feminist in politics was very positive. It was seen as an asset to the party political system. However, that has faded.

Having regard to the committee's terms of reference, all the parties have a women's officer and the women's officer in the Labour Party is Kirsty Hanafin. We have worked on identifying the obstacles to women's participation in politics and on recommendations to overcome them. We have identified and discussed the six Cs, cash, connections, culture, children, confidence and career. Male candidates probably experience those problems in one way or the other but they come forward time and again for women. The issue is how we can help women to overcome those obstacles. Some 87% of our TDs are men and 80% of councillors are men. Such representation of our population does not represent a balance in terms of gender. That must be addressed and the issue is how to address it.

The second issue the committee asked us to address was the potential initiatives that could be taken. I do not know if the committee is aware that Deputy Ciarán Lynch, our spokesperson on local government, brought forward a Bill — the Electoral (Gender Parity) Bill — to mark International Women's Day 2009. The committee might examine that Bill. Through the mechanism of funding political parties, it requests the political parties to ensure initially that 20% of the candidates they put forward are women, that then be increased to 30% and then to 40%. It has a lovely sunshine clause that when that later representation is achieved, that rather than seeking the 50% target representation, that the Bill will lapse. It is a short Bill and I will make it available to the committee.

In terms of progressing this work further, there is considerable work to be done. I will sum up what can be done by reference to a phrase that was commonly used in business circles in the 1990s, namely, "the tone from the top". If the tone from the top is that we want this to work, then it will work. When one notes the 7% of women Fianna Fáil Deputies and the 9% of women Fianna Gael Deputies, it appears that the bigger parties have a bigger problem in this respect. Alice Glenn used the expression that for male Deputies, voting to increase women's participation would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. There is no job creation in Leinster House. If more women are to come in here, some men will have to leave. There is a lot of work to be done. Work has to be done on the quota of female members of committees, they do not yet have such a quota. We had fun in the VEC in Dún Laoghaire this week. When I was Minister I had provided for a gender quota for councillors represented on the VECs. There was some panic this week in that respect, but that provision had to be made. Nudging, encouraging and being nice in seeking such gender representation did not work. When the Labour Party put standards and targets into its constitution, they had to be met. I recommend that the sub-committee examine that method and the research or experience in that regard. If we do not have it with us here, we certainly have access to it and would be delighted to make it available.

Chairman

I thank the three speakers for their presentations. I call Senator Bacik.

Senator Ivana Bacik

I thank the former Members who spoke today, and the former Members in the Visitors Gallery. It is great to see that level of interest in this initiative among women who have served as Deputies or Senators. I am also grateful to the Chairman and my colleagues in the justice committee for agreeing to my suggestion that we establish this sub-committee. It grew out of the Oireachtas women's event that I organised and which the Cathaoirleach and the Ceann Comhairle so graciously hosted on 9 December 2008. That event, to commemorate the 90th anniversary of Constance Markievicz's election, showed us how a parity democracy would look when we saw the Dáil nearly half full of women, all of whom had been elected in the past or are currently Members of the Oireachtas.

I am grateful to the witnesses for their eloquent presentations and for setting the scene. Ireland does extremely poorly in international league tables on women's representation. It is currently 87th in the Interparliamentary Union league. There are only 23 female Deputies out of a total of 166, just over 13%, and we have never achieved a number of women Deputies above 14%. Indeed, as Ms Hussey said, Ireland has slipped back from what appeared to be a breakthrough in the late 1980s and early 1990s in terms of women's representation.

The sub-committee's brief is to examine how we can achieve positive change. I am honoured to be the rapporteur and I am anxious to ensure that this is an action-focused sub-committee, that is, that it examines what action can be taken to achieve an outcome. Ms Bhreathnach spoke about the noble aspirations contained in many documents that do not translate into outcomes in terms of increased numbers of women representatives. She also put it very starkly to my male colleagues that increasing the number of women will necessarily lead to a reduction in the number of men. All the witnesses expressed very well how important it is for a functioning democracy to have representative levels of men and women. There is a collective good in that regard.

The witnesses' experience has emphasised for the committee the importance of mentoring and having strong female role models, as well as collective action through the women's political organisation. Ms O'Donnell emphasised the difficulty in political parties, especially large parties, at the nomination stage and selection conventions. Professor Yvonne Galligan will give a presentation to the sub-committee later in the summer. Her research certainly shows the selection level is an obstacle for women to run as candidates in local, national or European elections. What do the witnesses believe is the single most important political initiative we can recommend and, hopefully, ensure is adopted at the top levels of Government that will achieve an outcome of more women being selected by political parties? That appears to be the difficulty.

Ms Bhreathnach referred to the gender parity Bill which the Labour Party has introduced. That would operate by imposing a financial sanction on political parties that do not achieve the selection of a certain number of women candidates. That model is being used in France and has been used in Denmark. In fact, the sunset clause was introduced once the Danish levels of women's representation reached 40%. It is now no longer necessary because the culture changed. The difficulty, of course, is that our culture is still the problem. There is no longer overt discrimination, as Ms O'Donnell has said. The difficulty is cultural and that is the hardest to tackle. What is the single most important political initiative? Is it something like the gender parity Bill, which provides for financial sanctions, or should there be more specific quotas and reserved places in political parties? Do the witnesses have one major idea they believe the sub-committee should explore which might have been used elsewhere but which the sub-committee can recommend?

Ms Liz O’Donnell

Any recommendation should be addressed to the parties. It is up to the individual parties to embrace the concept that our democracy is unfinished while there is still such unequal participation by women. Once that concept is accepted there will be a moral obligation and huge political pressure on the political parties, particularly the larger ones, to make space for women. They must change their structures. I feel bad lecturing to bigger parties because I came from a small party where there was such space. It always had a significant number of women at organisational, national executive, leadership and local levels. It happened because it was a new party. It is the older, more traditional, institutional parties which need to examine their systems and actively make space for women by changing. I am not familiar with their systems but it is up to them to accept voluntarily that our democracy is unfinished and that their parties will flounder unless they have more women.

There is a huge appetite for more women in public policy making positions at the highest level. When women are on the ticket, they tend to do well. When they are elected, our experience is that women rise very quickly to the top of their parties in terms of leadership and Front Bench positions. Women work well as politicians. They just need to be assisted at the starting blocks, which are currently very much an obstacle race for them.

Finance is also an issue. Many women lack the finance and the networks which would allow them to raise money to fund their election campaigns. That is where the parties must step in and assist. If they are really serious about getting more women to participate in their parties and run for election under their party flag, they must help them to fund-raise and facilitate and mentor them in overcoming obstacles. Many of the women who might be considering running for election tend to be young women, possibly with young children. Things will have to be made easier for them, as they were for me. I was always facilitated, helped and given plenty of support at election time to make it easier. Women have networks but men have different networks, particularly economic networks, which are much more favourable in terms of men's participation.

Ms Niamh Bhreathnach

Professor Galligan has identified what I consider to be the biggest stumbling block, namely, the selection convention. I consider selection conventions to be the blood sport of a political party.

Ms Liz O’Donnell

It is the bear pit.

Ms Niamh Bhreathnach

People come out of the woodwork and vote for candidates but when it comes to getting that candidate elected they might not be as enthusiastic or visible during the campaign. That is the savage part of politics, and it is why the parties must adopt internally a commitment to reach a certain figure. In the VEC we had to go back to our partners in our alliance in Dún Laoghaire council, Fine Gael, because we had to meet requirements in that regard in legislation.

Senator Bacik mentioned France. It provided for financial penalties but there were people in France who actually paid the penalties rather than choose the women. That was interesting. Rwanda has the highest number of women parliamentarians. It identifies a number of seats that must be filled. Given the democratic magic of proportional representation, of which I am a great fan, it is up to the parties to run the candidates. The parties must be committed. That is the reason I favour the gender parity Bill, which has financial provisions. I hope the sub-committee will examine it and, perhaps, try it out on Professor Galligan. I agree with her identification of the selection process as the place where parties, if they are committed, can get involved in terms of the slate of candidates they put to the electorate.

It is interesting that in the recent debacle in Iceland, the country has turned to women politicians. We would say, in a defining moment, that men are very good at power but women are problem solving people. We would bring a difference to the situation. When one considers the challenges facing society and the next generation, or our children, which is particularly special to women, we can bring problem solving to bear. Who can say that problem solving is not something the biggest political parties need help with?

Ms Gemma Hussey

I have a brief answer to the question. Unlike Liz O'Donnell and Niamh Bhreathnach, I am not starry-eyed about the voluntary aspect. It has been shown all over the world where steps have been taken, backed up by legislation, that that is the only way the breakthrough has been achieved. When the breakthrough has been achieved the legislation can fade because the momentum takes over. While it would be nice if all the parties, including the two big ones, came out with voluntary quotas, nothing works voluntarily. We are talking about getting hands on power here, not about a garden party. One must be tough and say that Ireland is really disgraceful in this respect. It is a faulty democracy and does not have women participating in politics in any numbers, so what are we going to do about it? From the very top, the legislative body should say that it is going to do something about this. They are introducing laws every day of the week on other things.

A couple of the figures are interesting. Ms Yvonne Galligan, who will be addressing the sub-committee, has a lot more material other than that marvellous paper which was so kindly circulated. She had more up-to-date material. A figure from that particular paper struck me, however. In 68 countries, 160 political parties have adopted mandatory party quotas by law. The critical mass of women in a parliament is identified as approximately 30% plus. The countries with 30% plus have quotas, which is how they got there. They did not get there by people making pious promises or parties saying they would do this and that. They got there by the hard graft of legislation and penalties.

Ms Niamh Bhreathnach

It worked in France.

Ms Gemma Hussey

Even though in France some of them paid the fines instead of having the women, nevertheless, it worked there on the whole.

I notice that the sub-committee's terms of reference mention "a policy of 'positive discrimination' which has been successfully used in other European countries". It is not just European countries, however. We are inclined in Europe to suffer from a certain centrist attitude. In South America there are interesting examples of how they have changed things. In answer to Senator Bacik's question, I really think we have to be stronger than just exhortation and having parties stating at annual ard-fheiseanna that they are going to have more women in politics. That is not enough. We need to back it up with laws at this stage. The time has passed for aspirations.

Deputy Noel Treacy

I warmly welcome our three former Ministers and all their former Oireachtas colleagues here. I was asked by colleagues to sit on this committee and it is a big challenge. I have listened with interest to what has been said. In a few weeks' time I will be 27 years in the House, having fought ten elections. To answer the question as to what women bring to politics at any and every level, I would say they bring a real balance to debates and management of the political environment. Their presence has made a huge, positive contribution in all my political activities. Whether it concerns a public meeting, a Government meeting, a party political meeting or a conference, the participation of women brings real balance, which leads to better debate and conclusions. It also leads to better behaviour from everyone's perspective, but especially the male perspective.

I am not sure we can find a situation that will change everything dramatically or rapidly. I come from a party in which women have had a long involvement, from Countess Markievicz to Máire Geoghegan-Quinn and others. All the good people present came in between. Over the years, we have done our utmost to change opportunities and bring about further participation by women at every level of our political party, Fianna Fáil. Even at national executive level, we always had serious competition for 15 ordinary members of the party to be elected at ard-fheiseanna to that management body. Anyone could run for those posts and there was massive electoral competition to get there, both by male and female candidates. We changed that system, increasing 15 national executive places to 20, of which ten would be male and ten female. All of a sudden the competition went away and now the problem is to get willing participants. We now have about 25 or 30 — never more than that — seeking 20 places on the national executive. In the past, however, when there were 15 places and everyone was in the melting pot, 40 or 50 candidates would often run for that office.

It is difficult to know what system would create the change. I am not sure whether quotas or financial penalties are the answer. As Members of the Oireachtas, we certainly must examine how political parties are funded. I believe that by and large the State should be funding political parties in their totality. If we did that, we could bring in quotas and financial penalties on a wider basis. Those penalties could easily be imposed. The State, via the Standards in Public Office Commission or whoever oversees that situation, could ensure penalties were imposed dramatically and effectively when people did not make the contribution they should have made.

In the recent local elections we changed our candidate selection process. We went away from these wonderful conventions where we were able to galvanise massive momentum into huge success and decided that we would select. We had a minimum requirement of one female candidate per grouping. We achieved that, by and large, but we did not achieve it electorally. It did not work and, as a result, we have more or less disenfranchised some of our people who feel we went away from the democratic process and should have maintained that rather than doing what we did. It is difficult to know which way is best and how we are going to find that balance.

I listened with interest to what our three contributors said, particularly to Ms Hussey. She said she believes that conservatism is still rife and that church and State are still in control, or that they are controlling the situation to a degree. I would have thought we were long past that. I believe that in a modern society, equality is absolute. There is no way people can be discriminated against either by law or action. We are in a strong position and are equal to the best when it comes to that.

I agree with what Ms O'Donnell and Ms Hussey said, that it was never more important to have women in politics than now. Ms O'Donnell also referred to the talent bank that women are. I remember that, back in 1983, our political party ran a national conference under the title, Women Leading Change. We wanted to get that change and it worked for 18 months or two years but then it died away. We tried in different ways to bring women to the fore. I remember when I was a Minister of State with responsibility for science and technology that we established a talent bank of women in that area. We picked the brightest and best throughout the nation to be part of a national talent bank so that they would be available to serve on State boards. To go back to Ms O'Donnell's earlier point, this is the big challenge for everybody, particularly women who are mothers of young children. We offered positions on boards to many women but they could not give it the time or make the commitment. That is a difficult situation.

I refer to the winnable seat. If women are selected to go forward, they should be given the same amount of support by the political parties. Politics is a very competitive environment and women have played a huge role in the development of this State. The women who have served this country in office have done an outstanding job at every level. We all have an important responsibility to create an environment in which it would be more advantageous and positive for women to enter the political arena.

External factors mitigate against the performance of women and ridicule them unfairly. Over the past year, it has become obvious that some with major responsibilities do not get fair coverage for the efforts they make.

Those outside politics and those involved in it have an important responsibility to ensure we recognise the commitment, ability, effectiveness, balance and contribution women have made to our society. We must try to find a formula which is all embracing and enables women of any age to enter the political arena and participate therein with success.

Ms Niamh Bhreathnach

Deputy Treacy made a number of points and his contribution was very interesting. I admire the length of his career and his ability to get re-elected to this House.

Deputy Noel Treacy

I get elected with much help from many women.

Ms Niamh Bhreathnach

That is something. Professor Michael Marsh of Trinity College is doing work because the idea of women voting for women is not universally acceptable to women. There is ongoing research in this regard. For political parties, gender is not the most important thing; it is achieving a majority.

There is not a family friendly environment. I refer to the statistics in other countries in regard to women's participation. In Sweden it is 47%, in Finland it is 42%, in Cuba it is 36%, and in Argentina it is 35%. What is common to all those countries is very good child care policies. Women in Ireland have what we call "a triple burden". They have the burden of education, career and family. Now we want to add the burden of politics to that.

I beg to differ with Deputy Treacy who said women should be given the same help as men. If they are coming from behind and are not coming through in numbers, the parties must look to see what they can do to level the playing pitch.

Ms Liz O’Donnell

I wish to respond to Deputy Treacy's comment that in his experience what women bring to politics is balance, whether to Cabinet discussions or public meetings. That is exactly what we hope to achieve by having more women in politics. It will come to a point where decisions taken, from which women are absent in large numbers, will lack credibility in a democracy. We should be reaching a point where we are saying that a bunch of guys have made a very important decision but there was not a woman in the room. That is about the feminisation of policy-making and introducing a gender-based ingredient which is about women's perspectives, experiences and their thought processes and different way of working. That is what we are trying to achieve, namely, to ensure democratic decisions which are mandated by the people are made with an input from women who represent more than half the population.

I would go as far as to say that currently many of the decisions made at the highest level in public life are made without the input of women and, therefore, lack democratic credibility. That is a very serious issue and is why I am glad we are having this debate. It is the sort of discussion we, in the women's movement, have been having for 20 or 30 years.

It is very welcome that we have been given this opportunity in this forum to make these points. I hope clear recommendations for action to be taken to resolve this big deficiency in our democracy will come out of this process.

Ms Gemma Hussey

Deputy Treacy will forgive me if I pick up on something he said. I do not for one minute believe women today are still subjugated by church and State, although when I went into politics, women were. We still had battles over minor things like contraception. We had just achieved the situation where the children's allowance was paid to the mother by right. Up to that point, women's lives were extraordinarily controlled by church and the State, which backed up the church with laws which kept women down.

I wish to make it clear that what I said was that we have not yet shaken off the legacy of those years when women's lives were so completely controlled. If we had, we would have 50% of women in politics and 50% of women at the top of business, and not all bankers and property developers would be men.

If women had 50% representation, this sub-committee would not have been convened to examine the situation. We think we have made progress but we have not. We have a long way to go.

Ms Liz O’Donnell

It is important to note, given the upcoming Lisbon referendum, that many of the reforms which have helped women in terms of their mobility in society and including anti-discrimination legislation, equal pay and maternity legislation did not come from this House or the body politic in Ireland but from Europe.

When going out to vote, women, in particular, must bear that in mind. Most of the benefits we enjoy as women in terms of equality on a day-to-day basis have come from the efforts of the European Union and not from any reforming instincts of these Houses, whether among men or women.

Deputy Brian O’Shea

I welcome Ms Hussey, Ms O'Donnell and Ms Bhreathnach and thank them for their contributions. I also welcome the other former Members present. We have two former Ministers for Education here, namely, Ms Hussey and Ms Bhreathnach. What further role can the education system play in terms of bringing about a change in societal attitudes in regard to the part women play in politics or preparing girls more effectively to play a greater role in the political system or in society at large?

I remember in the 1980s a Deputy, who was not from my party, decided not stand again and defend his seat. I was intrigued and asked why he was not standing. He said this was no life for a family man. This cuts both ways.

Ms O'Donnell said the small parties provide more opportunities for winnable seats. However, there is an issue for the larger parties, namely, the multiple seat constituency where there may be a number of Deputies from the one party representing a constituency. This can lead to a huge amount of activity in the constituency, including clinics and all the work that goes with them. That is extremely demanding for everybody. It is certainly anti-family. I am not advocating that we change the proportional representation system but it is a factor. How can we address it?

Ms O'Donnell also raised the confidence issue which I have encountered and quite surprised me. Women say they would not be able to do something or are not up to it. How does one change that attitude?

There is some variance between the three speakers in regard to the quotas. That is something with which Senator Bacik will deal in time.

Essentially, my questions would be as follows. What about the education system? Does it have a role? Can it have a more effective role? Ms Hussey explained her comment earlier on church and State, that it was more an issue when she was elected here and became a Minister. I would have thought it is much less of an issue nowadays in terms of controlling people or keeping people in their place. Matters have improved a great deal, yet we are not seeing the number of women emerging that would be practical.

There may be a theme from what has been said. The country is in a fairly shocking state and there is the rebuilding of the economy to be undertaken. Maybe the theme should be how we put that recovery operation in place but make sure that there is room for women so that they are encouraged and can take their places there. I thank the delegation. This has been extremely useful to all of us.

Ms Gemma Hussey

The Deputy is correct that education is all important. It was a long battle to get anything approaching social and political education as a serious subject on the agenda. It still is not. Ms Bhreathnach did all sorts of wonderful things after me. I tried to get it going in terms of making civics something meaningful. The then curriculum and examinations board recommended a strong subject with strong examination levels in citizenship and in social and political education, but that was watered down and dropped, and today it is still not a major subject in schools although I feel strongly that it should be.

To change the subject, in general, girls' schools never went in for the kind of robust debates that boys' schools did. When I went to university I found very few of the girls took part in the major societies; it was an exception when somebody like Deputy Harney became very prominent in university societies because it was usually men.

I do not agree with what was said about the multi-seat PR system. It should be changed and I feel strongly about that. We have a disastrous electoral system. It leads to seven days and nights a week work for the Deputies sitting opposite, and that applies even more to Ministers. It imposes on politicians a life which is not conducive to the best kind of government. That is really all I have to say. I thank the Deputy for his input.

Ms Niamh Bhreathnach

I will take up the point about civics. The curriculum had been examined and the subject had disappeared. I encountered terrible difficulty as a Minister in exciting the civil servants in the then Department of Education about the importance of civics. Finally, mesmerised, the Secretary General came to see me and asked what I really wanted out of this. I said that I wanted the electorate to be able to pick up the election literature that comes through their doors and undertake a critical analysis of the promises and the record of achievement in it. He went away and, finally, the programme was re-jigged and put back into the system. During Deputy Michael Woods's time as Minister, the examination and the status of the examination was another matter.

In patriarchal society there is not a great deal of interest in these matters. I will put it as strongly as that. Why would one want to change something if it will damage an easy position? If Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael can be returned here with majorities with women accounting for 7% or 9% of their number, why change the system because they all are holding on to their seats? That is important. I looked at the Canadian model and I would recommend it to anybody who is interested in civics. The work the Canadians do through the education system is well worth examining.

We examined books when we reviewed this matter. When I arrived we still had, tá Mamaí sa chistin agus tá Daidí amuigh ag glanadh an charr, and we had to take these pictures out of school books. That was not today or yesterday. We put gender quotas on committees and we changed the composition of the boards of management. We did a great deal of work, but it is hard work and one must be totally committed to doing it. That is the message I would give to the committee, to be totally committed to delivering an objective. It is about harnessing the talents of women, not closing the door and leaving us out.

In the education field, I despair of the universities. They are the leaders and the challengers. They are bringing us to the cutting edge, and one takes a look and asks where women feature there.

For all of these branches, there is a gender problem in primary school where there is an absence of men as teachers. Gender is not just to do with women and that is what we will address today. In delivering a balanced society, one must look at a system that excludes women because women have a great deal to offer. I hope the committee is committed and I am delighted that it has asked us to come here today and share our views.

Ms Liz O’Donnell

Two former Ministers for Education have dealt adequately with the need for better voter education, civics, etc., in school with which I agree. On the confidence issue, a good way for women to gain confidence is to run for local election. I was so pleased to see so many women ran in the recent local elections. It is a good place to find one's feet, learn how to speak in public, learn how our democratic systems work at local level, and of course, it is hugely educational because the work and subject matter of local politics is extremely important. It includes housing, sanitation, transport, environment and all of the matters which greatly influence the way men and women live in our communities.

The first step is to get more women involved and elected in local politics and from that one will find confidence grows quickly. That was certainly true in my case. When I was approached by Deputy Harney to think about entering politics, I thought immediately I could not possibly do that. I had never known a politician. There is nobody involved in politics in my family. My immediate reaction was that I could not do that rather than saying when can I start, which maybe for a man would be the usual response. That is the way it was. I was a highly educated adult and had two small children. I should have felt competent and confident to do that.

However, politics is a daunting, frightening sort of theatre. When one does not come from a political background one cannot imagine being successful there unless one has somebody who, in a benign way, is mentoring and encouraging and giving a little support. The mentoring issue within political parties is extremely important. All parties should have in place mentors to encourage younger women, who perhaps are involved in the organisation but who do not have quite yet the confidence to cross that bridge into public life. A little encouragement goes a long way.

Chairman

I have made a note of that. That is the first time this afternoon any of the delegates have mentioned local politics. The vast majority of those who end up as politicians in this House have come through the local authority network. Should our concentration be on getting the balance right there because if we do not have enough women serving on the city and county councils, by extension we cannot have them in the national Parliament? Should our concentration be on that rather than on trying to immediately solve the problem at national level?

Ms Gemma Hussey

I do not agree. Given my views on the electoral system, the national legislators should be exactly that and we should have a much stronger system of local government where people genuinely have power and run their local areas. National legislators should do their work nationally; one should not have to follow the other. I speak as someone who never served on a local authority and I do not see why people should have to do so to be involved at national level. That is just a view.

Ms Liz O’Donnell

I would disagree. Local representation is a fantastic learning opportunity for women and, indeed, men, who want to come into politics. I agree with the abolition of the dual mandate. I always believed that local and national politics should be totally different spheres, which is now the case. However, in order to increase the critical mass of women generally involved in politics, it would be important to focus on local elections, particularly in the context of removing obstacles for nomination.

Ms Niamh Bhreathnach

As someone who has returned to local government, I must state that I find it very fulfilling because one is dealing with one's parish, one's family and the services they require. I admit that I feel disgracefully under-powered, if I could put it in that way. However, being involved in local government allows one to be close to ordinary people.

The Labour Party set itself the goal that 30% of its candidates elected in the recent local elections would be women. We achieved a figure of over 29%. That was a deliberate strategy. No hostages were taken and no excuses were accepted. We have set ourselves further targets in this regard and hope that by 2014, 50% of our candidates elected will be women.

As to whether it is easier to be a female candidate, one's campaign is certainly less expensive to run. Given that one is known to one's immediate family and neighbours and one has taken one's children to school and met other parents, it is easier to communicate with certain people. Since the advent of mobile phones and e-mail, people can find one at 2 a.m, so it is a full-time job and it is very difficult to find a cut-off point. As a result of the fact that it is a smaller arena, one's preferences tend to come from one's geographical situation. While some people may have been surprised that I returned to local government, I find it a satisfying occupation, particularly in light of my experience in the Houses. Too many Deputies pretend they are councillors and far too many councillors pretend they are Deputies. I am, therefore, absolutely in favour of the separation of the two.

Chairman

Many councillors want to be Deputies.

Ms Liz O’Donnell

On the point about local politics being a suitable theatre for young women with small children, it is certainly more manageable for them. If one is operating at local level, one is not obliged to be hundreds of miles away from home and one gets to see one's children and one's husband now and then.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

I welcome Ms Hussey, Ms O'Donnell and Ms Bhreathnach. I served with each of them in the Houses of the Oireachtas during the past 25 years and I am of the view that they, and some of those present in the Visitors Gallery, made a major contribution to national politics.

I have always found it easy to work with women, be it in politics or in community organisations. I accept that what I am about to say is somewhat of a sweeping statement but I have generally found women more reliable than their male counterparts in the context of executing certain tasks. In my experience, if a woman gives a commitment, she follows through on it.

As far as committees are concerned, I have always believed in taking responsibility myself. However, it has been my practice to give women responsibility for particular tasks because they always execute them well. If one takes this analogy further and applies it to the sphere in which we operate, it is obvious that our society could only gain if more women were involved in local and national politics. When one considers that more than 50% of the population is female, it should follow that a similar percentage of women should be involved in politics. Female representation in the Dáil stands at 13%, while in the Seanad it is 22%. These figures will have to be improved considerably. I hope this report will be of assistance in that regard.

In the previous Dáil, I was rapporteur in respect of a report on women in sport. I accept that politics is a different type of sport. The report to which I refer was quite effective at the time and it contained a number of recommendations which certainly improved the lot of women in sport. In the first instance, the report highlighted the matter and led to a major conference being held at Croke Park. The report to which I refer raised the profile of women in sport to a considerable degree and it also highlighted the lack of facilities — providing examples of instances where women were obliged to share changing rooms with their male counterparts, etc. — available to them.

The exercise in which our guests are engaging is extremely important. I would not underestimate the potential of their report to have some impact on the system. For that reason alone, what they are doing is a worthwhile exercise. People continually come before the various committees in order to present their views. That is part of the democratic process and, in the end, these individuals may not achieve very much. However, I am convinced that our guests' presence at this meeting and the exercise in which they are engaged will achieve something.

I am of the view that more women must become involved in politics at local branch level. Fine Gael operates a system of one person one vote. Whereas I know such a system can be abused — for example, by someone recruiting a large number of members to a particular branch in order to ensure his or her selection as a candidate — it provides everyone with a feeling that they are involved and that they have a say. When it comes to selecting a candidate to run for the party, everyone has a vote. As a result, if more women were involved at local branch or constituency level, there is a better chance that one of their number might be selected as a candidate. I have also found it to be the case that not all women will vote for a female candidate. This is another issue that must be addressed. I do not know why this is the case but it is certainly a factor.

I served as my party's spokesperson on arts, sport and tourism in the previous Dáil. At that stage, the National Women's Council of Ireland carried out a study on the membership of State boards. I checked the position with regard to tourism, which is driven by women. I examined the membership of the various tourism boards and discovered that hardly any of them contained women. As a result, I saw to it that the matter was put to a vote in the Dáil at that time. The position has improved in the interim but during the period to which I refer I suggested a quota system should be introduced, via legislation, in respect of the boards of Fáilte Ireland and Tourism Ireland. The then Minister stated that in view of the fact that all ten people serving on a particular board could be women — if they were good enough — there was no need to set a quota or a percentage.

My suggestion at the time was that 40% of the membership of these boards should be women. Such a percentage is enshrined in certain items of legislation but not in others, so there is a contradiction. I am of the view that we should recommend that 40% of the membership of State and semi-State boards should be made up of women. In addition, a similar percentage should apply in respect of VECs and county development and partnership boards. If women are to make an impact, it is important that they should be involved at local and national level. I agree with Ms O'Donnell and Ms Hussey regarding the importance of local participation and that if one is not involved locally, this should not be a bar to one being involved on a national level.

If a person wishes to become a Deputy, generally speaking he or she must have a high profile. The only reason I was asked to enter politics was because I was a Gaelic footballer. That was the only reason. Seán Kelly, MEP, gained election to Europe on foot of his participation in the GAA. If one does not gain election in this way, one must inherit one's seat from a family member. In such circumstances, it is problematic for women to gain election because it is difficult for them to build up a high profile. Some of them do build up such profiles but not to the same extent as their male counterparts. That is another disadvantage which women face. If a man wishes to gain a high profile, he must move in certain circles and appear at a large number of social events. The women find it difficult to do that because at times they believe that if they are seen at too many events on their own, for example, people start to ask questions. It poses difficulties and challenges for them which men do not have. These are two aspects which women have to overcome in order to become representatives. Most of the questions have already been asked.

I refer to the use of modern technology by women who live more remotely from Dublin. Would it be possible to use modern technology such as video-conferencing? For example, if a joint committee was in progress, would it be possible for a woman with young children to be at home in the west of Ireland and communicate with the committee by means of video-conferencing? This may be taking it to an extreme, but there is the question of distance voting. Would it be possible for someone to vote from a centre near home? This would accommodate women. Is there any way that modern technology could make life easier and facilitate the involvement of women who have family obligations? As Ms O'Donnell said, could we help them more?

Members of this sub-committee such as Senator Bacik and myself will have to come up with realistic proposals which hopefully will ensure that more women will be involved in politics. I wish to give an example from the recent local elections. In Tralee my party had just one candidate out of a total of 12 candidates. I decided to go out and try to head-hunt two prominent women. I was successful and both of them were elected. We now have three representatives where there was only one before. It proves the point that well known women have an advantage. If they are involved in local community initiatives they will have the connections. That was proved to me when two women with high profiles who were not associated with the party were elected based on their connections with their community at grassroots level. I ask for the delegation's views on the use of technology.

Ms Gemma Hussey

Deputy Deenihan's idea is very imaginative and it should be explored. Modern technology is changing the lives of young people who are much younger than all of us. His idea is a very good example of lateral thinking, looking at different ways of allowing for participation, both for men and women. We should bear in mind in this debate that every child has a father as well as a mother and in most cases there is a couple. Deputy Deenihan's idea of exploring new ways using modern technology is a great idea.

I am aware of the fact that he was such a distinguished footballer before he became a Dáil Deputy. In my time I was foot-slogging around the country trying to get women involved in politics and in doing that, I achieved a high profile which then got me elected to the Seanad through the National University of Ireland constituency. However, as Deputy Deenihan said, that was achieved by my having a high profile. There is no reason that women cannot have high profiles just like men as this is not so difficult nowadays. Deputy Deenihan referred to boards of State bodies requiring 40% women members. I had the impression there was a definite State policy that all State boards——

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

It is not a statutory requirement. It is a policy but it is not in legislation. I know because I had this argument and also from my own experience of the legislation.

Ms Gemma Hussey

I remember way back when I was Minister and was filling vacancies on State boards in the area of education, I was following a policy by which I asked that every nominating body should nominate both men and women and this created all sorts of difficulties for some bodies who were of the view that no women were available or suitable. One had to be a little bit tough about it and suggest they did not nominate anybody if they could not find any women. We succeeded in getting women onto the boards but there were not too many people doing this at the time. Where an effort is made one can get the talented women.

Deputy Deenihan talked about the importance of women at branch level. Why do the big parties such as Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil not have a policy of positive recruitment of women to local branches over a six-month period? This could be a project for 2010 or whatever, with targets of women making up at least 50% of the membership of branches and that they would not be making the teas and such work.

Ms Liz O’Donnell

It would be a very useful recommendation from this sub-committee to have an audit of the numbers of women on State boards to see how real the earlier commitment made by successive Governments has been. When I was a Minister of State there was a commitment to have a ratio of 40:60 men and women on all State boards and agencies and relevant authorities appointed by the Government. It would be interesting to see how women are faring in that regard. Such representation would go a long way towards allowing women to influence policy, quite apart from politics. There should be women on State boards who are not involved in politics but who have significant assets and knowledge and professional talent to bring to the corporate governance of organisations. An audit would be a little reminder to the Government of this earlier commitment and would be useful. It might result in a clarification of that commitment to representation of 40:60 on boards.

Ms Niamh Bhreathnach

I hope Deputy Deenihan is successful in getting all the women involved. Political parties have to look at how local branch meetings are organised such as the business of the meeting, the treasurer's report, the clearing of the debt from the last election. Women organise themselves and their meetings in a different way. I did an audit in the Labour Party at one stage. I telephoned all the branches and discovered there was a branch in one of our constituencies that had no women members. Then I discovered that the branch used to meet in a pub at noon on a Sunday which was not quite conducive to women attending.

I refer to the new technology such as YouTube which is the way people like us should be going. We can hand it to the next generation. It is possible through YouTube and the new technology to become a celebrity because this is really what it is about. Kicking the football, travelling the country, overnight celebrities are being invented out of the new technology. I love Deputy Deenihan's idea of looking at other ways of conducting business. We as women must address the issue of a family-friendly environment. There must be fathers here who want to go home and there must be women who want to come here. I note that Senator Bacik will be drawing up recommendations.

Deputy Seán Connick

I welcome the ladies. It is a very interesting presentation and debate. I welcome in particular the former Members of the Oireachtas. I was interested in the comments about the Scandinavian and Canadian models and this is an area which may provide more information.

Like Ms O'Donnell I was approached in 1999 and asked to run for the local party at town council level and there is much merit in this approach of seeking out the candidates who have the potential to get elected. I am always cautious about imposing quotas.

In her final contribution, Ms Hussey made the point that the bigger parties should encourage more women. Fianna Fáil does so at officer board level, at cumann level. When it comes to the voting rights of the cumann, we must have one female vote among the three votes in each cumann. We are encouraging more women to become involved at a local level. In the recent local elections in Wexford three out of our 25 candidates were women, two of whom were sitting councillors. Both the sitting councillors lost their seats and the new candidate was not elected, which is very disappointing because they are all vary capable ladies and very good individuals. The problem was that they were not successful in getting elected.

Work needs to be done on seeking out and finding the proper candidates. Work needs to be done if we follow Deputy Deenihan's suggestion whereby we handpick people we believe are capable of delivering the seat. The three witnesses are all very successful politicians. I would have admired, supported and at times given out about all of them individually when I saw them appear on television programmes.

Chairman

I apologise but I must interrupt the Deputy. Senator Bacik needs to leave for a division in the Seanad and we will be wrapping up shortly. I ask her to make a brief comment before she goes.

Senator Ivana Bacik

I apologise to Deputy Connick. I am conscious that I have already missed one division in the Seanad. As rapporteur I really appreciate the contributions from our three guests and also the very creative ideas proposed by my colleagues on the sub-committee. We have some good food for thought and there is much material for us to consider at future meetings and ultimately put in our report. I thank the witnesses and apologise for having to leave early.

Deputy Seán Connick

I wish to raise a number of issues about women campaigning. As a wheelchair user I recognise that it is important that female candidates are not pigeon-holed. They should not seek support simply because they are women. Women are much more capable and do not need to make that argument. They should be seen as broad-spectrum candidates as I would have liked to have seen myself. However, the fact that a candidate is female or in my case a wheelchair user tends to cloud to some degree the judgment on occasion, although this is not true of people who know us or have worked with us. Do the candidates have any views on women running on women's issues as opposed to putting themselves on the field of play as broad-spectrum candidates like everybody else, which is the proper approach?

When I am socialising I find that women are much more engaging when it comes to discussing politics. When out at a social function at night I find that women are much more engaging than men. I enjoy going to speak at a girls' school or to observe a debate. I find the boys are too cool in fifth and sixth year and do not want to know about it, whereas girls are much more engaging. With many school trips to Leinster House I have been lucky or unlucky to be caught for sometimes up to two hours of questioning in the AV room because they are so engaging, which augurs well for the future.

I believe women are making the breakthrough at all levels. I see that throughout the structure of society, particularly the people with whom I deal in various organisations. I find them extremely capable. It is only a matter of time before that breakthrough will happen in politics. Do the witnesses feel we are making a breakthrough, particularly given that three members of the Cabinet are female? The Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, became the first female Tánaiste in 1997 and obviously we have a female Tánaiste at the moment. Do the witnesses have any thoughts about 20% of the Cabinet being female?

This has been a very interesting exercise and I hope the witnesses have enjoyed the experience. We will do our best to make positive recommendations so that they are not back in five years with no progress having been made. We would like to think we can move the issue forward.

Ms Liz O’Donnell

I take the point that progress has been made on female members of Cabinet. However, that does not take away from the fact that there are only 23 women in the Dáil, which is a House of 166 Deputies. When women are elected to this House they tend to be very successful and take leadership roles in their parties. They generally do well in politics and rise to the top once elected. The big stumbling block is the nomination process and getting off the starting blocks to start a political career. When Deputy Connick says there has been progress, I do not agree there has been sufficient progress. It cannot be stated that it is progressive in 21st century Ireland that we have very low participation rates of women in Parliament. When I looked after the overseas aid programme we funded programmes in sub-Saharan Africa and elsewhere in the developing world. All of our budgets were absolutely contingent on these developing countries having total equality of access to education, health and other services. In other words, our overseas aid development programmes were gender-proofed. This may explain why there are higher participation rates among women in politics in emerging democracies in Africa than is the case in Ireland today.

The Deputy asked whether we thought it better to be a broad-spectrum politician. Yes, of course. Women are broad-spectrum politicians. There is no such thing as a women's issue; all issues are women's issues. The economy, health, war and peace are all fundamentally equally the concern of women and men. The objective is not to have women elected to do womanly things but to have women elected so that they can participate on an equal basis in running the country. That is what I hope the feminisation of politics will bring about.

Ms Gemma Hussey

I agree with Ms O'Donnell about women's issues. There was a time when that question was constantly asked. In the Government in which I served, there were two men who had no difficulty in involving themselves in all the debates on so-called women's issues. They were the then Taoiseach, Dr. Garret FitzGerald, and Deputy Ruairí Quinn. Deputy Quinn was never afraid to describe himself as a feminist. He was ahead of himself in those times. Nowadays there are those social issues, which are what we are talking about, and as Ms O'Donnell says, the broader spectrum issues that affect everyone in the country.

We might fall into the problem of complacency because there are three women in the Cabinet. It is not possible to get away from the fact that women are under-represented in every other area of politics and in every other powerful area of the country, even in the teacher unions. The majority of teachers are women and at primary level, unfortunately, they are the overwhelming majority. However, the leadership of teacher unions who enter discussions about pay and other issues are men. That is reflected in every area. For example, the spokespeople for nursing unions are men. We have all that difficulty. We are in danger of being complacent. However, with the help of this committee's work I am sure there will be a breakthrough.

Ms Niamh Bhreathnach

I know Deputy Connick said at the beginning that he would be loth to put targets in place. However, he represents a party 7% of whose Deputies are women. Based on the statistical trends, if we keep going at the pace his particular party is going, it will be nearly the next century before we actually reach some sort of parity. Accepting that it needs to hurry things along a little, I certainly think the involvement in branches, etc., is important. In my day I called it the visibility. The Labour Party used to be able to operate without a woman in sight. When women began to appear and began to take their places we were accepted to be good serving committee members. I would encourage that, but I would ask the Deputy to be somewhat more ambitious in the target.

I take the point that was made about the comparison between being in a wheelchair and being a woman. When political discussions are taking place, Mr. Barack Obama has to be mentioned at some stage. When Mr. Obama decided to run in the presidential election in the US, he did not allow himself to be pigeon-holed. When I was campaigning, I steered away from going to the pub every night. When I was helping male colleagues to get elected, we used to go to the pub. As Deputy Deenihan said, people tend to ask why one is in the pub buying rounds of drinks. Perhaps there is something in Irish political culture that makes that necessary. Maybe the publicans will encourage us to come back. I accept that we may campaign in a slightly different manner.

I would like the bigger parties to set targets. Those who say it is sad that there are so few women in the Oireachtas should bear in mind that it is as a result of hard work, rather than luck, that women comprise 35% of the parliamentary party of the Labour Party. The Labour Party had to take action in 1987 when it had no women in the Dáil, in the Seanad or on the platform at its party conference. I will make all of our information and research available to the sub-committee. It is a pleasure to have been asked to come here and talk to the sub-committee about the matters that first caused us to get involved in politics. I wish the sub-committee well.

Deputy Noel Treacy

I thank the former officeholders for returning to the Oireachtas. I suggested that we should consult these great people. Their advice and wisdom will be of benefit to us. I hope some more of their counterparts will attend future meetings of the sub-committee. I look forward to listening to them.

Chairman

We have had an interesting discussion this afternoon. I was struck by the remarks that were made about civic education. The witnesses were quite right to argue that we need to ensure that civic education becomes a serious subject at second level. That would give people a greater insight into what happens politically. It would be beneficial from a societal point of view. The sub-committee will consider the matter. I thank Ms Hussey, Ms O'Donnell and Ms Bhreathnach for attending this meeting. I thank the former Members of the Oireachtas who are in the Visitors Gallery. I thank the members of the committee for their contributions. We will examine what has been said with interest when we are compiling our final report on this issue.

The sub-committee adjourned at 4.10 p.m. sine die.