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Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 4 May 2021

Traveller Employment and Labour Market Participation: Discussion (Resumed)

Before we hear from our witnesses, I propose we publish their opening statements and submissions to the committee website. This includes our guests from Values Lab, St. Stephen's Green Trust, and Bounce Back Recycling Galway Traveller Movement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

This is the fourth public meeting on Traveller employment. The first meeting took place in December 2019. On behalf of the committee, I am delighted to welcome our witnesses from Values Lab, including Ms Rachel Mullen, researcher and Mr. Niall Crowley, researcher. From St. Stephen's Green Trust I welcome Ms Orla O'Neill, executive director. Unfortunately Mr. Martin Ward from Bounce Back Recycling Galway Traveller Movement could not be with us today but we have Joanna Corcoran with us. I welcome Joanna and thank her for joining us. I suggest that each organisation should make an opening statement for around five minutes. We will then have questions and comments from committee members. Each member will have around five minutes for comments and feedback from the witnesses.

I invite Rachel Mullen, a researcher from Values Lab, to make her opening statement.

Ms Rachel Mullen

I thank the Chair and members of the committee for giving us the opportunity to talk to them about the research we have undertaken on behalf of the St. Stephen’s Green Trust to look at Traveller employment pathways. I want to acknowledge the third member of our research team, Bridget Kelly, who unfortunately could not be here today.

I want to give a quick presentation on the core findings of the research. This research comes in the context of the significantly low levels of employment among the Traveller community in comparison with non-Travellers. Those figures have been well rehearsed. It also comes in the context of the unfulfilled employment aspirations of Travellers. The research fills a gap in that it looks at and explores the experiences of Travellers who, despite many barriers, have successfully negotiated a pathway into mainstream employment. The research is qualitative in nature and involved in-depth interviews with 15 Traveller adults, men and women, all of whom were working in mainstream employment. It also involved interviews with employers, key policymakers and two social partners.

I will present the research findings in three areas, namely, getting work-ready, getting into employment, and experiences in development and progression while in work. I want to present some of the barriers and enablers that were identified by interviewees in each of those three areas. The core barriers that were identified in getting work-ready were educational disadvantage and a lack of access to work experience as students. That educational disadvantage means that 12 of those we interviewed had all left school early, principally due to experiences of racism in school and experiences of teachers having low expectations of them. They had all had their education interrupted, some for years, but almost all of them went back to education at some point. Another key barrier in getting work-ready was a lack of access to work experience while a student. For example, some third level courses are determined on the student getting access to an employer that will take him or her on for work experience. That is a key barrier for Travellers, who find it extremely difficult to get that kind of work experience.

I refer to enablers to getting work-ready.

The key things that emerged were the role of local Traveller organisations and other community organisations in bringing people back to education and developing their skills. The role that local Traveller and community organisations played was key for those Travellers who left school early and were trying to find a way back into further education and training.

The role of Traveller-led social economy enterprises was also key for a number of people with whom we spoke. Ms Corcoran will speak a bit more about the role of Bounce Back Recycling in Galway. Other key enablers were local community centres providing further education and training courses. The third level access programme was key for a number of people. People often linked into that third level access programme through their local Traveller organisation or community organisation. Another core enabler that emerged in terms of giving people a sense of work experience and something for their curriculum vitae were internships in the public sector. For a couple of people, that was their first foothold and a key foothold in terms of getting their first job.

In respect of getting into employment, the key barriers that emerged were discrimination at the point of recruitment. A few people with whom we spoke decided on a career path based on the presumption they were going to be discriminated against so the chosen career path for a couple of people was going into the public sector rather than the private sector on the basis that they would be less likely to experience discrimination if they were working in the public sector.

The lack of connections or networks was a key barrier for people in terms of getting that first foothold into a job. We underestimate the kind of connections that non-Travellers have. We have many connections and networks that we gain through family members and friends in employment. Members of the Traveller community do not have those same connectors and networks so that was a key barrier.

Caring responsibilities emerged as a barrier in terms of getting into employment - not solely for women but also for men. A couple of the men with whom we spoke chose specific jobs that would allow them flexibility in terms of child caring responsibilities. Another core barrier in terms of the decision to take a job was the potential loss of secondary benefits, particularly the medical card.

In terms of enablers, while the lack of connectors was a barrier, having a trusted connector to get into that first job was a key enabler for a number of people. This emerged more easily for those Travellers who had completed third level education at the same time as their peers. They were able to access those kind of connectors in terms of the connections and networks they made in universities. For other Travellers, those kind of connectors were made through having a family member employed in an organisation that could vouch for them or connectors through local Traveller organisations and local community organisations. A second key enabler were employment supports through local Traveller organisations. Some local community organisations had specific job coaches who, for a number of people, were named as being critical in terms of supporting them and giving them the confidence to apply for and get their first job.

The other set of barriers relating to experience in work were forms of harassment in the workplace that were experienced in the form of micro-aggressions, not being comfortable with being open about one's ethnic identity in the workplace and not being afforded opportunities to progress. Some people felt this was directly because of their Traveller identity.

Enablers in the work environment included the importance of having a positive, supportive and family-friendly workplace culture, in particular supportive line managers. This was particularly in the context where somebody might have been the only Traveller in the organisation and felt they had a line manager who was really supportive in that regard, looked out for them and made sure they got opportunities. For some people, the presence of anti-racism and intercultural training for staff was a key enabler in terms of addressing harassment and racism in the workplace.

We have a number of recommendations arising from the research. It is critical that Travellers are named in mainstream labour market policies. The key policy in this regard would be the new Pathways to Work strategy being developed. We understand that the new strategy is about to be published. The last strategy did not name Travellers as a target group, which was a core gap, so it is critical that Travellers are named in mainstream policies. Arising out of that naming, specific targeted measures are needed to address the significant unemployment gap. Those targeted measures could then be implemented and driven through the national Traveller and Roma inclusion strategy, which will be reviewed. The next iteration is coming shortly. Underpinning this policy strategy should be the more effective implementation of the public sector equality and human rights duty, which is a legal obligation for Departments and public bodies. This is particularly critical in the areas of employment services. The use of an ethnic identifier is also critical given that there is very little data to tell us where Travellers are using specific employment services and the outcomes.

We think a systemic work experience programme across the public sector that would have internships specifically targeting groups that are very distanced from the labour market such as Travellers is important. In line with the finding around the importance of trusted connectors to act as a link to bring Travellers into employment and link them with potential employers, we suggest that a network of Traveller employment liaison workers who would be employed through the Department of Social Protection might be a useful way to go in this regard.

Other initiatives include expanding and deepening peer-led services. The Traveller health programme, which is a peer-led programme, would be a key model in this regard - again as bridge to link Travellers with potential employers, third level education and third level access programmes.

Social enterprise is a key area for Travellers and a key area of untapped potential. The national social enterprise policy is about to be reviewed. We believe there is a key opportunity there to name Travellers as a target group and look at targeted initiatives around getting Travellers to look at social enterprise as an employment option. The last recommendation involves the importance of guidance and supports should be developed for employers and trade unions, which obviously have a key role to play in respect of employment pathways for the Traveller community.

Ms Orla O'Neill

The St. Stephen's Green Trust is a privately funded grant-making social justice charity that works across the island of Ireland and is committed to social change. We also work in a number of other areas. We support the provision of culturally appropriate quality accommodation for Travellers and have an operational programme called Travellers in Prison, which is a partnership between Traveller groups, the Irish Prison Service, the Probation Service and mainstream prisoner support groups. We have a number of other programmes such as supporting people living in direct provision and asylum seekers in the North, programmes relating to the criminal justice system and a grassroots peace-building programme in the North.

Ms Joanna Corcoran

I thank the Chairperson for the chance to talk today. I would like share an image with the members of the committee and then I will begin my presentation. Can the members see that image?

Ms Joanna Corcoran

I am a community employment supervisor in the Galway Traveller Movement, GTM, which was established in 1994. GTM is an independent Traveller community development organisation for Galway city and county. It is made up of Travellers and non-Travellers. Our work has always been rooted in an understanding of and respect for the distinct culture and ethnic identity of the Traveller community. GTM's vision is full equality for Travellers and the participation of Travellers in social, economic, political and cultural life as well as the broader enhancement of social justice and human rights.

Our work is motivated and guided by the following core values - social justice, equality, collectivity, participation and dignity. Members of my community experience a higher level of unemployment when compared with the settled population. According to a Central Statistics Office publication in 2016, the Traveller unemployment rate is 80%. The main barriers currently experienced by Travellers as regards the labour market as well enterprise activities include discrimination, whether direct or indirect, and half of all Travellers feel they experience discrimination, according to the All-Ireland Traveller Health Study to which reference was made; lack of appropriate enterprise guidance and support from mainstream enterprise support organisations and lack of trust among Travellers with traditional business support providers; and loss of, or fear of loss of, benefits, particularly regarding the medical card, given Travellers' poorer health status. This can mean Travellers would be fearful of taking up employment or testing new enterprise ideas. There is a lack of visible role models as many Travellers need to hide their identity to succeed in a hostile and anti-Traveller work environment. A national survey of Travellers in 2017 found that 52% of Travellers said they had experienced an obstacle when accessing employment and 43% indicated they had encountered discrimination while accessing employment.

Discrimination against Travellers, racism, unemployment and social exclusion have a negative impact on all Travellers - women, men young people and children. Travellers are not gaining employment from the mainstream State investment in enterprise programmes, foreign direct investment, training initiatives and local development programmes. While there is a national Traveller and Roma inclusion strategy, NTRIS, there is not sufficient money or resources attached to the employment or enterprise actions in NTRIS. We need to create opportunities for Travellers to gain real jobs.

We in GTM have created 16 jobs alone for members of the Traveller community through our social enterprise activities. Since 2007, GTM has pursued an ambitious enterprise and social enterprise development strategy. We have formed two social enterprises: First Class Insulation, which has provided home insulation services in the west since 2010 and has delivered the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland's better energy warmer homes scheme to more than 1,500 homes; and Bounce Back Recycling, BBR, which was established in 2017 to recycle mattresses and furniture. We offer a nationwide collection service to commercial and domestic clients. Our social enterprise mission is to explore and expand new social enterprise opportunities to increase employment opportunities for Traveller men and women; develop a powerful model of economic self-determination to inspire the wider community; reclaim the community's role in environmental and economic sustainability; and promoting the visibility of our work to challenge racism and discrimination. A third social enterprise, Springback Upcycling, which will provide furniture refurbishment and upcycling, is at a start-up stage.

The recommendations we make are as follows. It is essential that the needs of Travellers and other groups are assessed in preparation for all enterprise and employment programmes in order that the services will be appropriate to the needs and experiences of members of the Traveller community. This means Travellers are a part of the decision-making and planning process at local and national level with all stakeholders. Under public sector equality and human rights duty, equality impact assessment and anti-racism training should be mandatory in all policies, actions and plans relating to employment and enterprise, and Travellers should be involved in that whole process. All enterprise and employment agencies and bodies need to introduce an ethnic identifier to collect data on the participation and access of Travellers in their programmes. There should be a positive action programme in the public sector which targets Travellers and recruitment processes. This should be undertaken by the Government Public Appointments Service with the involvement and partnering of Traveller organisations to support its implementation. Given the significant funding provided by the State to support private enterprise, the State should require private employers in receipt of State support to put in place strategies and actions to secure a diverse workforce. The State should also put in place resources to support this.

GTM calls for the special initiative for Travellers' programmes to become a peer-led programme, housed within Traveller organisations. GTM should be funded as a selected organisation to support Traveller organisations nationally to explore social enterprise development. We are well placed to do this and, as a result of recent national radio and conference coverage, we are receiving requests for support from Traveller organisation and local development companies throughout Ireland. The use of social clauses and social considerations in the procurement process is provided for in procurement directives and a pilot to explore how this could work should be developed. GTM has experience of delivering social benefits through the procurement process. The local economic and community plans, LECPs, must include formal participation of communities that have experienced the most disadvantage, including Travellers. Explicit commitment to this must be provided by local authorities. Unless Traveller organisations are participating in the structure developing local plans, we believe the plans that emerge cannot address the employment and enterprise needs of Travellers. Collaboration should take place with Traveller organisations in designing, delivering and promoting culturally specific and targeted supports and programmes, including enterprise programmes and social enterprises.

A complete overhaul of the current system that is delivering on equality outcomes needs to happen. The structural inequality needs to be addressed. The development of an innovative employment strategy with clear targets and adequate resources for success needs to happen. Employers need to recruit Travellers and champion social change. Investment in peer-led social enterprise models that can deliver on results for the Traveller community should happen. Members of the Traveller community need to be fully included as part of any employment recovery plan post Covid-19. The Government needs to take leadership and implement meaningful change through positive action measures. I thank the members for listening.

I thank Ms Corcoran for her presentation. I will open up the discussion to members who may have comments or questions, starting with Senator O'Reilly.

I join the Chairperson in thanking our speakers. Collectively, their contributions were very interesting and they were specific and focused in their recommendations, which is great. We cannot continue stating the issues in a broad philosophical sense. We must have a solution-based approach. That was very apparent in all their contributions and that is welcome.

I wish to raise a few issues. I would like the speakers to elaborate on what exactly they mean by social enterprise opportunities. I have a broad sense of what they mean but I am not specifically sure about it. Will any of the speakers comment on how much or how little the current community employment schemes are being used in a positively discriminatory way to assist to provide a start for some Travellers to work on them?

While they are not ideal for Travellers, other ethnic groups or the settled community, they have been empowering. I have real evidence from people I know for whom this has been transformative and has had a huge impact on their lives.

The Chairman and the clerk to the committee, Leo Bollins, should be looking at how we can get these recommendations implemented. I know the committee is not part of the Executive or an implementer of Government policy. However, we are, at the same time, an important committee. We should look for the Departments to come before the committee to discuss these recommendations.

Internships in the public sector are vital. We had a discussion on this before but we need to set out specifically the numbers and the Departments, and the where, what and how. The Chairman and the clerk should see to a programme that brings in the relevant people to get answers from them. We have had presentations on Travellers in public sector jobs but we need action on that to see the actual quotas and numbers.

The Chairman will recall that in the Seanad recently I raised the issue of publicly funded grant schemes, such as sports capital grants, and their linkages to Northern Ireland for the sake of an all-Ireland peaceful situation. Public representatives are aware of State supports given to big employers. We process them and bring them to the local enterprise offices. The grants, along with preferential loans, are generous and widespread. There should be a link there to Traveller employment. One cannot set crazy targets but there should be targets. That is something we should specifically pursue.

I liked the point about liaison workers. This worked fairly well when I was a Deputy in the Cavan-Monaghan constituency. I am still processing this. In the disability sector, this has worked pretty well with a number of enterprises where the disability placement persons supported them. The liaison workers are vital and I would like to see that more.

A peer-led service would be good too. Unfortunately, there are not many Traveller peers in the workplace. Will the witnesses comment on how that might work?

Ms Mullen cited several Government initiatives which are ending now. Is there positive discrimination towards Travellers in those programmes? If there is not, is it too late and has the horse left the stable? The Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, announced a national apprenticeship programme recently. It is exciting that it gets over the point that one must be academically orientated to end up with high-level qualifications. To what degree is there any positive discrimination built in for Travellers?

I was in favour of gender quotas in the political sphere, although some women objected to them on the grounds of meritocracy. I favoured them because they were needed to break the glass ceiling. They were implemented and we have a 40% quota now. We have to break the glass ceiling for Travellers by similar methods such as quotas, positive discrimination, legislation and grants tied into this. The glass ceiling is so high that it will take targeted action. We should refrain - I am as bad as the next one for this - from stating the problem. We should start actually getting some results. That is why I recommend that the Chairman and the clerk to the committee focus some meetings on when will these things happen.

An agricultural expression in the part of the country from where I come says one cannot spend all the time weighing the pig, one must spend time feeding it. That basically means one must act on things, not just state the problem. We can all talk about road safety but if one does not put road safety measures in place, nothing happens. The same principle applies here. We know the problem and its roots. What we need now is to see if these good recommendations could actually be implemented.

Ms Rachel Mullen

In terms of the key moment in the renewal of policies and strategies, the core one is the national pathways to work strategy, which is under the auspices of the Department of Social Protection. That was to be published just before Covid hit but that has yet to happen. It is possibly being rewritten in light of the likely significant employment problem that will result from the pandemic.

A key moment in that policy was that it was pivoting more towards the pillar of active inclusion on the basis that we had practically full employment just before Covid hit. There is a real opportunity to have Travellers named as a core target group in that strategy. It is critical that they would be named in a mainstream strategy such as that one because the danger is that things get siloed over to the national Traveller-Roma integration strategy. Travellers need to be named in mainstream strategies.

The national social enterprise policy is also, we understand, about to be reviewed. There is an opportunity there to specifically name Travellers and to look at tailored supports for those Travellers who want to start their own enterprises.

Mr. Niall Crowley

The Senator's point about moving away from stating the problem to getting results is a timely statement. It certainly came up powerfully for us in the research. What we covered was not a set of problems but a set of ambitions and aspirations that were being thwarted. There was a real drive for change coming from the Travellers we interviewed but a real sense of that being blocked. That needs to be unleashed, as much as anything else.

Social enterprise is one route. It is a particular type of enterprise that requires a particular type of support and has a particular type of potential for a group like Travellers. It is a particular type of enterprise in that it is economic activity at the service of social gain. It requires particular supports in that there needs to be a sustained support of the enterprise to achieve that social gain. The Galway Traveller Movement has wonderful examples and models for people to follow in terms of clear economic activity and social gain coming from it, along with the clear need for particular supports and a particular reach out to the Traveller community to enable it to access that.

The second point I would pick up is that community employment, CE, schemes did come up as quite significant in the research. They do have a key role to play but they have to be part of a pathway. They cannot be just an end in themselves. We interviewed Travellers who had a good experience in CE. It came to an end and in a way, that was it. It has to part of a pathway, rather than an end in itself. We came across other really good examples where CE was part of a pathway and people grew through the CE scheme into employment settings very successfully but we also encountered significant frustration where people had made real efforts on the CE scheme and ended up being blocked at the end of it for the lack of a pathway.

The liaison workers are crucial. We saw significant success from liaison workers who were in place but there needs to be a much clearer programme of liaison workers, a much better national spread of it and a much higher standard set across all providers of those liaison services. That link, in terms of enabling employer capacity to manage diversity, enabling Traveller capacity to access employment and being that trusted link, is a key gap in current provision and emerged as probably one of the most important recommendations.

The peer-led services are very particular. Peer-led services are most developed in the health sector. They are beginning to open up a little in the education sector. They are underdeveloped in other sectors. They could be developed in the accommodation sector. It is where, essentially, Travellers have been employed to provide links between key services and the Traveller community. They build a capacity in the key service to engage with Travellers. They build a Traveller capacity to engage with the services. It is very effective, but we should see progression for peer workers. They should be able to progress from those settings into mainstream employment within those particular services. They gain real skills in being involved in those peer-led services and we need to see a wider range of those peer-led services.

Finally, in terms of the private sector, one of the things we picked up was a real interest, particularly coming from the social partners, in terms of enabling Traveller access to employment in the private sector, the social partners mobilising their members to develop local area based pilot initiatives but also a lack of support through the social partners to enable that to happen. Training to be provided to their members, guidance to be provided to their members and initiatives to be developed with their members in partnership with Traveller groups hold real potential in that regard.

Ms Corcoran is looking to come in.

Ms Joanna Corcoran

Around the social enterprises, the social enterprises that we have run here in the Galway Traveller Movement, GTM, have been very successful. A large part of that is to do with our team. A really good part of our Bounce Back Recycling is that we take back an original role to do with the Traveller community, and that is recycling. As we say, we are the original recyclers.

One important part of the social enterprise start-ups is funding. There needs to be funding. It needs to be accessible. It needs to take in many different factors. Often the ideas around social enterprises come from the side. For example, Bounce Back Recycling came from an idea around recycling and around the greener energy and to reuse, and funding should be available for them. That is a huge part. Support there would be great.

Another part of the social enterprise is it brings in the bigger picture around public and private jobs provision. It helps to address the 80% of unemployment and the old myth that Travellers do not want to work. If the opportunity is there, that is brilliant. In the social enterprise that we have going at present, there was no worry about putting in your CV to apply for that job because your name on it would not lead to someone making a decision not to bring that person in because that is a McDonagh from a certain area, who is bound to be a Traveller, and we do not want to hire that person. Even if they get past the CV and get in to the interview - there is the fear of the discrimination that happens then, the racism, and not wanting to employ people. That went out the window with the social enterprise because this was a Traveller organisation. Now we are employing 16 Traveller men and it is brilliant. There is no fear. There is no discrimination. In gaining the jobs and continuing with that employment, there is no racism. There are no mental health issues on the back of having to hide your identity constantly. Gaining access to the employment and the keeping of the job is a big part of the social enterprise.

On the community employment, CE, question and comment, I am a CE supervisor but I am an ex-CE participant. The role of a CE scheme can be brilliant if it is there in a meaningful way. In some ways, the new way that the CE participation is going on is with a one-year contract. With the lack of experience that Travellers have had and with the amount of emotional turmoil there has been within the Traveller community, sometimes just to get people up to the point where they would feel comfortable even applying for a job can take the best part of a year or longer. To then get the skills needed to even put a CV together or to have the confidence to go in for an interview can take a bit of time. On top of that, there are limitations with the funding. For real meaningful training, the funding on a CE scheme is not practical if one is looking to go into meaningful employment, especially when one comes from a place where, as Ms Mullen stated earlier, one's educational experience has not been the best. For such people to get into mainstream employment, they will need a little bit extra. There used to be a free year social inclusion side to the CE and I think that needs to come back.

What Senator Joe O'Reilly said about the pig was a brilliant analogy. It has been said by members in my own organisation that we as a community are over-analysed. You can look into it and look into it, but the actions are not getting put in place. As the Senator said, you need to feed the pig. We need the commitment to reduce the unemployment. We need that target set. We need supports to be put in place and all efforts that need to be in there to support us to meet that target in a meaningful way. Do not just set up internships to get that unemployment rate from 80% down to 60%. If you are going to stick Travellers in jobs and just leave them in those jobs just to get them off the list, there is no point because they will not like it and they will not stay there. It will not work. For example, the State is the biggest national employer. If it stepped up and showed leadership using the positive action measures and employed Travellers in long-term meaningful roles that are not tokenistic, that we would not be seated there just to say that they have got a Traveller there, and they are stuck in the back end of nowhere in an office where they are not getting used for anything, there are Travellers out there who do not need the internship. They have the skills. They have the ability. They are raring and willing to go but what they do not have is the opportunity to get the job in the first place because they are not given the opportunity for the interview. They have the skills. They have everything but they just do not have the door open for them to come in. If that chance is given, the employment rate will change. People's opinions will have to change because it will not be able to be said that Travellers do not want to work. At present, Travellers cannot work because we just do not have the access to the employment and to the roles and that is what needs to change.

One hundred per cent. Joanna, thanks so much for that. I call Senator O'Sullivan.

Quite a number of the issues and questions I had have been raised already by Senator Joe O'Reilly and well answered by Ms Mullen and Mr. Crowley and Ms Corcoran.

I will try to pick out one or two other issues. It is very timely we are having this conversation because in the car coming up this morning I heard about a report which indicated that unemployment levels will reduce to 10% in the foreseeable future, and the ESRI is predicting a boom post Covid and a big take-up in business across the board.

I picked up on a few points. I was interested to note that 32.7% of Traveller women are solely responsible for looking after the home and family, as opposed to 17% of the non-Traveller community. Am I to infer there is an abdication of responsibility on the part of Traveller men and they are putting the entire onus on the women to raise families, look after the household and whatever they are doing themselves? I put that out there as a question that one of the witnesses might want to pick up on.

I am pleased about the suggestion on Traveller-specific internships. It seems to be a very good way of getting people to initiate a process whereby Travellers could get work experience and potential employers would be able to take them on on a trial basis without having to commit fully. Internships generally are quite useful, and it seems to me it would be no different for the Traveller community.

Community employment schemes have been covered, so I will leave that. I wonder about self-employment in the Traveller community. I am from Listowel in north Kerry where we have a sizeable Traveller community and there are some very successful self-employed Travellers. They are doing well in the community and the wider area. Travellers used to be involved in scrap and such services as tarmacadam, guttering and similar work. A lot of people used to be reluctant to employ Travellers, but they have proven themselves. If Travellers are self-employed, then they would probably be the best people in the world to employ other Travellers. Perhaps we should try to encourage self-employment in the Traveller community as much as possible.

I know a good bit about the deficiencies and drawbacks in Traveller education as I was a teacher myself. My wife was a primary teacher and she used to teach in a special Traveller school in Rathkeale for many years. She subsequently started teaching in Listowel where the Travellers were taught in a mixed environment. Do the witnesses have any views on which approach is the optimum? Is it to have their own special schools or to have integrated schooling? My wife and I guess that integration is best, but I would like to know what the witnesses feel about that.

There is a big responsibility on all State agencies in particular to show leadership. I single out the local authorities as an example. They have a lot of contact with Travellers, if only in the housing area. Should there be an onus on county councils to take on a quota of Travellers? I am talking about some kind of balance. I am comparing the situation to having a gender balance because there is a lot of suitable work that Travellers would be able to do for county councils. I give that as one example. I am sure there are many other State agencies such as harbour boards and others that could do the same. That is something that should be considered.

I never heard about Bounce Back Recycling. It is marvellous. Did it come from the group's own initiative or did some entrepreneur get the business going and then decide to employ Travellers exclusively? I guess I am answering my question. That is a first. It would be marvellous if it could be replicated throughout the country.

I know people who, if they were listening to this conversation, might think we were crazy. I am just going to say it, as there is no point in not saying it. There are people out there who believe Travellers do not want to work and that they are gaming the system all the time. There are high rates of invalidity pensions and other such benefits among the Traveller community. I do not buy into that myself. I have given Travellers employment when I was in business and I found them exceptionally good employees. I incurred a fair amount of wrath from some of my colleagues, even some of my supporters. I was asked why I was giving such a fellow a job, as he would draw the rest of them around the place. There is a tendency in the Traveller community to stick together. I had to deal with that. I had to make it clear to Johnny that I was giving him a job, not giving a job to his brother or his family. There is resistance and racism out there. We know that. It is very easy for people to tar everyone with the one brush. They say Travellers will take us down and they are on the make all the time. They are human beings who have their own culture. There is good and bad among them like everybody else. If they get a fair crack at the whip, they can do well. They are up against so much. I thank the witnesses for their presentations today. I found them very interesting. I learned a good bit. Perhaps those questions could be picked up.

This is why we need this special Traveller committee. There is a hell of a lot of stereotyping out there towards my community. The "them" and the "they" are us. We are all part of Irish society and we should all be treated as of equal value. As a Senator I am hoping to engage other members of the Traveller community, bring them with me and empower them. As a member of the Traveller community I think we have this ideology in our head that Travellers should employ Travellers and that Travellers should work in the Traveller NGOs. That is not treating the community fairly. We need equality of opportunity to be able to be successful in the employment sector.

Senator O'Sullivan is correct that many members of the Traveller community have their own businesses, but they are not big businesses. They involve one or two men or one or two women. We have to break down those stereotypes. While I am privileged to be a Senator, I do not have to be extreme, get down and kiss the Taoiseach's feet and thank him so much for nominating me when I play an equal part in society. It is the same way for members of the Traveller community who want to seek employment. We want to be employed because we want to do the job. We are not just members of the Traveller community. It is really important to make this statement today. That is my response to some of what Senator O'Sullivan said. I will now hand over to the witnesses to give their feedback to him. Ms Corcoran can start as Senator O'Sullivan was very interested in Bounce Back Recycling, so it would be interesting to hear from her.

Ms Joanna Corcoran

On Bounce Back Recycling, no entrepreneur came in. It was a piece of work that was thought of and worked on by Travellers in the Galway Traveller Movement, GTM. Martin Ward sends his apologies, as he should have been here but he was not able to present today. It was his brainchild, along with the hard work of the other Traveller members. I know the people in GTM and they fought very hard to get the funding and to get the okay to go ahead and get it set up. It is an absolutely brilliant social enterprise.

It has come on along with the local First Class Insulation enterprise. It has done wonders for the community. We have a line-up of so many people wanting to join and work in Bounce Back Recycling from the Traveller community but at the moment due to local fund savings and other situations we can only employ so many. As far as self-employed Travellers are concerned, as the Chairperson, Senator Flynn, has just said, there are some out there. Even though they may have a business going and they may be successful or they may be just starting up, they experience the exact same barrier as Travellers looking for mainstream employment. For example, we have a Traveller firm here in Galway which is a vendor. It may secure a job by putting in a tender and will go through every step that every other company will go through and may get the job if its tender is accepted. A phone call will then be made as to why the people in that firm should be employed as they are Travellers. They will then lose the job and the placement and a non-Traveller will get this position. These self-employed people are experiencing the exact same barriers as Travellers who are going for mainstream jobs.

I should also mention that one of the biggest employers of Travellers are local Traveller organisations. We should not have to be in that posoition. Travellers should be accepted and there should be placements for Travellers in local jobs. It should not be a case of employing one’s own. As Senator O'Sullivn has said we are all equal and there should not be an "other" with us and at the moment there is. That is normalised, and we end up taking away the humanity of ordinary Travellers.

That is the reason for the low numbers in employment in the State. So many Travellers have to hide their identity. Where it says that 80% of Travellers are not employed, I would say that the number is are a great deal less than that. We just do not know because Travellers have to hide their identity when they get a job.

As far as invalidity claims are concerned, unfortunately it is well documented that Travellers have a poorer health status than many members of the settled community. That is to do with the different factors that we have to experience within our lives. From birth to death, Travellers are having to deal with racism and discrimination in different ways. There is institutionalised racism from the day one is born to the day one is taken away from this world. Poor health is a big part that builds on top of that.

There is a positive thing in the social enterprises and Bounce Back Recycling and, hopefully, there are other organisations and people across Ireland who will be taking the initiative or taking on workers if they receive the right funding. That is why we and all of the people here call on the Government for that financial support to be put behind these initiatives and for actions to be taken. I thank the committee.

I thank Ms Corcoran. Would any of the other witnesses like to come in to answer Senator O'Sullivan's questions?

Mr. Niall Crowley

I thank the Chairperson. First, I agree with Senator O’Sullivan that this is a timely moment to be looking at and seeking action on this issue. One of the key elements is going to be the Pathways to Work strategy and the importance of naming and targeting Travellers in that strategy. Setting targets for Travellers in that strategy is central if progress is going to be made. The idea of the committee engaging with the Department would be very timely in that regard to ensure that type of outcome.

We would strongly recommend internships within the public sector. They have played a role in the past and they have a crucial role to play in the future. It is very important that they are part of a pathway and not just one year’s good experience and one is back then by oneself looking for a job. It works best where it is part of a progression pathway where one does the internship and then moves into mainstream employment within the public sector. That is where it has worked but some of the interviewees had the opposite experience where it just ended, they were dropped, it was a real blow and was not of assistance in the longer term. This needs to be part of a pathway.

Likewise, as regards local authorities or public bodies generally at local level, positive action to employ Travellers is really important. We found a really good example that had been there in the past with South Dublin County Council which had a proactive targeting of Travellers in their employment. It did not just look at getting Travellers into entry-level jobs, they got them into entry-level jobs and then supported them to progress within the organisation. Again Pathways to Work and a pathway within a career was a key element of that positive action. I do not know why it stopped. It is and remains a very important model of its time.

On schooling, integration is key, but integration in ways that respect cultural difference and prevent and eliminate all and any forms of racism. We found in the interviews that there are still many schools that are falling short of that target. Intervention to deal in a better way with cultural diversity within the schools is an imperative and ensuring that there is zero tolerance and zero place for racism in schools is important.

The unequal sharing of caring responsibilities within the Traveller community is a factor as it is within the settled community. If one looks at any gender equality strategy across Europe, this is a major issue and is something that has to change. One of the key elements of that which we found in the research was the importance of workplace cultures that were family-friendly. The importance of family-friendly working arrangements is crucial for access, particularly for Traveller women.

We also found that many of the male interviewees made choices and employment choices, in particular, based on family considerations and on caring responsibilities. I am not so sure if we would have found the same result if we had done those interviews with the settled community, to be honest. Family came across as being very important from both male and female interviewees.

My final point is as regards that battle against stereotyping. I will not say any more on this point but every single one of the Travellers we interviewed had battled against stereotypes both in getting in to work and in the workplace. There is a real need for sustained effort to shift that public discourse on Travellers.

I thank Mr. Crowley and I now call Deputy Ó Cuív to speak, please.

I thank the Chairperson very much. The onus is on ourselves today. When saying that, the challenge that we face in the coming two months is to put together a set of strong recommendations with doable, achievable and challenging targets. We have to get away from aspirational language that aspires to everything but does not deliver anything.

I am delighted that Galway Traveller Movement, GTM, are here today and are obviously based in Galway. I remember when First Class Insulation was set up because I was a Minister at the time. From its very inception, it was a very challenging but brilliant idea and one that has worked extraordinarily well. I say that it was a brilliant idea because it was really putting it up to people that if a person could do the job, it did not matter who the person was. The idea that the firm was going into people’s houses to do this work and that it achieved such a high level of satisfaction was something that many people would have said was not possible at the beginning. I hear complaints in my constituency office about anything and everything and from people all over the place but only twice ever in all of the years that it has been operating have I had to ring First Class Insulation about a query that was raised with me, and it was solved within 24 hours. I wish I could say that about the rest of the people that I contact. There is immense satisfaction from customers. The company competes and it delivers. One of the disappointments I have is that in the ensuing years there have not been many more of these social enterprise models set up where people are given a chance to operate in the marketplace to prove their skills.

That is one recommendation that we should be able to make.

The Community Services Programme, which is the programme involved, comes under the Department of Rural and Community Development and we will be making budget recommendations as well. With my other hat on - as a member of the Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands - I will be recommending that we increase the number of schemes. If someone were to ask me about the hierarchy of schemes, CE is fine but if CE is just a person going in there because he or she has no way of getting a job, and at the end of the three years that person will just see what happens then it actually defeats the purpose for a large measure of people because the future is not there. This is true not only among the Travelling community but among people who often go on CE schemes. The architecture is all wrong. I have said time and again that as far as I am concerned, when a person goes on a CE scheme, he or she should have whatever time he or she has on it, say two or three years, to get trained and into employment. I am saying this right across the board, I am not saying this specifically about Travellers but include them. At the end of that period, if a person has not got commercial employment, he or she should be offered employment on another scheme. In that case, the idea was that it would be the TÚS scheme and that it would be open-ended whereby people would provide vital services to society in the even of a person not getting commercial employment in the private economy, which we know is a challenge not only for Travellers. It is a huge challenge for Travellers with the prejudice against them but there are also other people in society who are unlikely to get commercial employment for various reasons. On the other hand, if the training succeeds the person jumps into commercial employment and moves on. I regard the social economy as above that in what we will call the hierarchy of progression because it is long term, it is semi-commercial, a person can stay on it forever and it is a full-time job with paid wages and that is why we need more in that intermediate area.

I want to make my views known on internships. Over the years I have had plenty of interns come into my office, students mainly. I have had people from the junior certificate in for three or four days and I have had interns from university. Why do I think internships are valuable? They give somebody experience in the workplace. That is of huge benefit because having employed many people in my life, if they worked out, I made sure that either I got them a job or gave them a job. There were many people I had as interns but even prior to that many to whom I gave short-term employment. Now, 30 or 40 years later, they are working because, as work became available, they became full-time and then a lot of them went off and started their own businesses. Getting that toe in the door in the first job is always a particular challenge for any of us but it is ten times harder for somebody from the Traveller community.

The second thing is that if a person has had an employer, particularly if it is a long-term internship of say, six to eight months, then that employer can give a reference. Where one can give a strong reference to a person it often counts an awful lot. Therefore internships work for everybody; they work for young students and they work for a lot of people. Certainly, I have had people work for me about whom I might have received a phone call from a prospective employer asking if they worked for me and I might have said I would take them back in the morning if I had a job to offer and it broke my heart when they went because they were really going somewhere. Therefore, internships are not the end, they should be the beginning of a stepped process. Just as they are huge opportunities for settled people, they offer Travellers equal opportunities and I have seen their worth at first hand.

We must crack the problem of State employment. We must ensure Travellers can access it and that the State takes a proactive role in this rather than a reactive one. I am aware some work is going on but we need to bring that to a conclusion and we need to open the doors because the more people get access then the next generation will have even more access. There is no point in talking about role models when nobody got the chance in the first place. What I would therefore suggest to anybody who does not know about First Class Insulation and the companies in Galway is that they go there and meet GTM, who will explain it. It has been an absolute model. As somebody on the ground, who knows many thousands of people who have availed of their services, I wish everything worked as well as First Class Insulation and its successor.

Finally, we have pushed Travellers out of self-employment. A lot of new regulation came in affecting the businesses which they were in. Travellers are exceptionally good business people but like us all their skills are in different directions and in special situations. Having started a very small business, I learned the hard way when one is in a very small business one must be the human resources, HR, department, the finance department, know all about the taxes, do the actual practical job of providing whatever service one is offering, to do all the manufacturing and so on. When one has a big company one can hire HR, have a specialist doing all the research, another doing all the accounts and so on. Remember, therefore, the hardest business job in the whole world is the small business job because one must be multiskilled and multitask. We must put many more supports around small self-employed businesses owned by Travellers, in terms of premises and backup with skills which they might not have - and none of us has all the skills. From setting up a co-operative, I know nobody who has all the skills in business but the difference is that the big people can buy the skills they are short of whereas the small person is trying to juggle everything at the one time. We must put a lot more resources and supports into helping people with whatever they perceive to be the part of the business which may be causing them the most trouble because I have no doubt there are a huge number of Travellers for whom their particular desire would be self-employment rather than employment and we have locked them out of that, even if traditionally it was where most of them operated.

I thank the Deputy. Would the witnesses like to reply or do they have any comments?

Mr. Niall Crowley

The focus on recommendations is very useful. The focus on social enterprise is timely because as Ms Mullen said earlier, there is the review of the national social enterprise strategy. It would be important that that review included outreach to Travellers and a tailoring of supports to Traveller social enterprise to address the particular needs the Deputy raises, that Travellers might have with start-ups and progressing social enterprises. The internships are important but they are important not just as work experience but more, as the Deputy said, as a route, an ongoing employment pathway and that was made very clear to us, I must say. On recommendations, the one which kept getting repeated was the importance of liaison workers and employment liaison workers engaging employers and Travellers who are trusted on both sides.

I would like to reinforce an additional point raised by Ms Mullen which has not really been picked up, namely, the area of the public sector equality and human rights duty. It is a requirement that all public bodies and service providers, including employment service providers, have regard to the need to eliminate discrimination, promote equality and protect human rights. It is quite a systematic approach to equality and human rights. We need to see employment services be more systematic in their approach to equality and human rights. Once they are, they will better serve the Traveller community.

We need to see a higher rate of implementation across the employment services sector and a better quality of implementation across the sector. That legislation has been in place since 2014 and needs to make its mark at this point.

Ms Joanna Corcoran

It is great to hear it set out because we have said it many times. It is correct that Travellers starting their own businesses and continuing their own businesses were driven out when certain legislation was brought in. We have said it repeatedly and it is great to see that come up and have it looked into even more. When new legislation is introduced in other areas of employment there is usually training and Government support given to bring the existing employers and workers up to speed with the new legislation, but unfortunately for places where traditional Irish Travellers would be employed or would employ themselves, that did not happen, for example, with legislation related to end-of-life vehicles and things like that.

Regarding Deputy Ó Cuív's suggestion, Bounce Back Recycling would definitely welcome anybody who would like to come along and see how we work. Anybody who wants any more information can contact us, the Galway Traveller Movement.

If I can just come back in for a moment, Mr. Crowley mentioned legislation that states the Civil Service should do something. I bet if we got a report from the Civil Service, the box would be ticked in some way - the usual vague way these things happen. However, if we counted the numbers, we would find it would be virtually zero. That is what I am talking about when we come to making hard recommendations the next time. They need to be much more specific. We need to remove the flowery language and we need to get delivery. Getting actual numbers in is the only measurement that counts and not various kinds of actions. I have seen this in many facets of Irish society.

I wish the witnesses luck with the review. I hate to say it, but I am becoming very cynical in taking the view that reviews are a great way of putting things on the long finger. More reviews are done and things are set up. Then after two years another review is done. We seem to spend more time waiting for reviews than actually making decisions and getting on with it. Most solutions are quite easy. We need to get another 100 CSP projects up and running. A certain percentage of those should be mixed, but a certain percentage should be specific for the Traveller community. We need to just make hard decisions and get on with it. We are analysing the problem too much. The answers are obvious; we should just do it.

I apologise for interrupting, but I get very frustrated that we are not getting the job done for the people who are looking for the services. We could fill an ocean with paper. We must be destroying forests with documents.

I fully agree with the Deputy. As Senator Joe O'Reilly said earlier, we need action now. Even Senator O'Sullivan said we need actions on equality of opportunities. I know the members of this committee want to see better equality of opportunity for members of the Traveller community. That, in itself, is a step in the right direction. We may not have much power, but we have some power through listening to our witnesses and listening to the questions of members.

Many areas have been covered. I attended the previous meeting on the St. Stephen's Green Trust report. As was said at that meeting, the travelling community is really over-analysed. Travellers feel like a specimen at this stage with the amount of poking and reports and everything that has been done. It has come to a point where we need to start trying to do something. This report feeds into what the committee should be recommending. I agree with all the points made by the previous contributors.

We know there is positive discrimination as regards people with disability based on the 2014 legislation - in the public sector it may even have been in before that. My office is in Agriculture House, and I see people who are disabled working productively and well. It is not so obvious in the private sector, but it is certainly seen in the public sector. Should local authorities and Departments have quotas for members of the travelling community? People in this generation are trying to get jobs and future generations need to see other members of their community in work to encourage them to stay in school for education to get to where those people are. That shows the importance of our report.

I want to ask a bit more about the Traveller liaison workers. It was said that this would be done through the Department of Social Protection. How many Traveller liaison workers are there at the moment? How many are needed? Mr. Crowley made the point about needing a national spread of liaison workers. It is key to have them work in a geographical area, talking to retailers and small enterprises about Traveller employment and then trying to match skills with those employers. It needs to be micromanaged at the ground level to be able to bring people from the travelling community into the workplace and address all the points that have been made.

Ms Corcoran spoke about discrimination. Each employment should have workplace human rights discussions and debates from the point of view of everybody who goes into the workplace, irrespective of gender, disability, membership of the Traveller or Roma community or whatever.

I would like to hear more about how the liaison officers need to be spread out because I believe they could be crucial in the recommendations we make.

Ms Rachel Mullen

The Deputy asked about the Traveller liaison workers. There are five posts under the umbrella of the special initiative for Travellers. They were originally in the Department of Social Protection and they were moved into what was the Department of Justice and Equality, primarily because that Department had the brief relating to the national Traveller and Roma inclusion strategy. However, it was not the right Department for that initiative. It was not the right home for it and it was not broad enough as an initiative. We are recommending a broader initiative to be housed in the Department of Social Protection which would be the most obvious place to situate an employment service initiative. It needs to be much better developed than what is currently within the former Department of Justice and Equality.

I thank all the witnesses. I especially welcome Ms Corcoran. It is great to see the work of the Galway Traveller Movement here on the national stage. It is something that other counties could follow. I love to see the Bounce Back trucks going around the city. As a member of the Green Party, the recycling element is obviously very appealing to me.

One thing the organisation does well involves going into the universities during freshers' week. That is a really good thing because Travellers themselves are there engaging with students. It has a two-way approach. It gives people in the Traveller community more of an experience of universities and, likewise, the social enterprises that people can get involved in. When someone is in university doing a thesis and then moves out into the workplace, he or she can see how social innovation can make such a difference to the lives of people. Much of research goes into things that are corporate. That is the way research is set up in this country. We rely heavily for our funding model on a corporate structure within higher education. Social innovation can sometimes be dropped off because of that.

A point was made earlier by either Deputy Joan Collins or Deputy Ó Cuív. I agree that sometimes we have an overemphasis on looking at reviews. There is a balance to be struck. Not long ago we would have thought equality simply meant looking at every person as equal but actually we have to focus more on equity. It is about taking each person as they come and seeing that some people have more challenges because of their education and the discrimination they experience. It is not simply an issue of looking at each person as equal when they come to us, it is about saying that a given person has had to overcome more barriers. That is what I hear.

The emphasis on the importance of getting work experience matters because it gives people a leg up to the same level as other people who have had advantages. Deputy Joan Collins is right. Perhaps we need to look at quotas or positive discrimination. At its previous meeting, the committee examined rates of employment. We did not really get a full explanation from the ESRI around the rates in the public sector versus those in the private sector. The public sector is something we all work in and something we can do more about. Great gains could be made in the public sector in terms of work. I take on board what Ms Corcoran has said in respect of legislation impacting on the ability of people to set up their own businesses. I am keen to hear more about that and what we might be able to do. What can the committee recommend? It is not directly discriminatory but it is indirectly discriminatory if people from the Traveller community are more likely to set up businesses. If that is the case, then anything we are doing legislatively that will impact on sole traders will impact more negatively on the Traveller community.

Would Ms. Corcoran would like to come back in on the points raised by the Senator?

Ms Joanna Corcoran

One thing relating to some of the legislation that has been enacted is that it has put pressure on the Traveller community when it comes to self-employment and so on. The issue is about making it accessible to continue working. Some of the legislation that has been brought in has made it impossible for Traveller people to continue working the way they were working. The issue is getting around the red tape needed to continue work. Sometimes it may be about previous workers who were already in a certain line of business providing support. It could be about going in and talking to them.

There could be literacy issues or it could be a matter of access to the Internet. It could be about computer literacy, gaining knowledge about filling in forms and so on. These could be among the barriers and could be addressed. Some of the requirements put in place around owning horses and trading and so on make it impossible for some people to continue their work. If a person already has a livelihood in a certain role, then every effort should be made to try to continue that and keep it going, because these people are willing to work and doing the best they can. The support needed can be given and is given in other areas. It should be given in this area as well.

Ownership of horses and end-of-vehicle-life regulation are relevant. There is also the question of sole trading and selling in markets. There are so many different examples. I do not know all of them and I will not make things up, but I could get back to the committee with information. The support available should be given to people from the Traveller community as well. It is about consideration for people who are already making a living in that area and the research getting done. If there is going to be a change, proper research needs to be done into how it affects everyone.

It is great to see the vans going around. It is a brilliant social enterprise and I cannot praise it enough. I can get back to the Senator with some of the information relating to the legislation.

That has been helpful because it is good to put in focus that it is not simply about obvious discrimination. It is about other forms of discrimination as well.

Mr. Crowley wishes to come in. I will call the Senator back in then.

Mr. Niall Crowley

I will pick up on the idea of quotas within the public sector raised by the Senator and Deputy Joan Collins and the model in terms of the ground of disability. There is potential in this and it is close to our thinking in terms of public sector internships as well. However, if we go down that route it would be important to learn from the disability model. Two big issues arose. One is that there are jobs at entry level but this has not really enabled progression within public bodies. We would need a new model whereby Traveller people get access to public sector jobs and are enabled to progress their careers within the public sector as well. That has been a gap.

The other gap was lack of training for public sector employers in terms of management of diversity. That is a significant issue. It was a particular issue in the context of reasonable accommodation for people with disabilities. Seemingly, it will be an issue in respect of Travellers, how employers manage cultural diversity and how they effectively manage the elimination of the micro-aggression we found in the public and private sectors that has been immensely demoralising for Traveller employees.

The second point relates to the review. It is not that we are recommending a review or anything like that, it is that a review is happening. Reviews are moments of change. If a review of the national and social enterprise strategy is taking place, it should lead to action. This means a tailoring of supports to the Traveller community and outreach in terms of information and awareness to the Traveller community so that those opportunities can be taken up. The public sector is usually not airy-fairy in any way. It is specifically focused on action in terms of the employment function of public bodies as well as the service provision function. It is a question of action to address issues that are faced by Travellers in respect of particular areas of responsibility, as well as other grounds. These two recommendations are deeply action focused. It is not about further analysis or anything like that. These are two key moments of opportunity that are not currently being seized.

If any members would like to make a second comment or suggestion, they may indicate. Last week I said that it is not that Travellers do not want to work. Obviously, members of the Traveller community want to work, but it is a question of equality of opportunity. One issue is health within the Traveller community. Pavee Point is calling for this to be addressed when women are employed in the healthcare programme.

It is in all of the Traveller-----

Ms Rachel Mullen

Primary healthcare access.

Yes, Traveller healthcare units. I believe that creates opportunities, and there is now Traveller men's healthcare. Without NGOs creating these opportunities for members of the Traveller community I am sure the unemployment rate in our community would be much higher.

There are so many opportunities now. A few years ago, I remember talking about redeveloping Labre Park but also training Traveller men to drive the trucks and so on and seek employment through that. Everything is so doable. Traveller men in Tipperary have set up a horse owners association. That creates employment for Traveller men.

It is hard to believe that in 2021 we are still fighting for equal access to employment. While things have shifted they need to shift much more. The work the St. Stephen's Green Trust initiative is doing this year is putting Traveller unemployment on the map. I know that research took a lot of work and energy. I thank the witnesses for that and for presenting to us today.

I visited Bounce Back Recycling in Galway in 2015. That in itself was evidence that Traveller men want to work. My father used to do the markets. There are many different traits within our community. I referred to that last week. I have a brother and I could almost say he is a mechanic but he does not have the papers to prove it.

Ms Joanne Corcoran said something that struck me earlier. She referred to real and mindful employment for members of the Traveller community. That is very important in terms of the future, as is the Traveller identifier, in terms of supporting Travellers.

Deputy Ó Cuív said that if we do not give equal opportunities to Travellers now, our young children will not have that equality of opportunity in the future. Senator Ned O'Sullivan said that now is the time to act. I genuinely believe that is the case.

From me personally, it is about the action we can take. I am delighted and privileged to be Chairperson of this committee. I will make sure it is not just a talking shop. The members of this committee are not here because it is a talking shop. They want to see action taken. That gives me a great deal of hope for the future.

On behalf of the committee I thank Ms Mullen, Ms O'Neill, Ms Corcoran and Mr. Crowley for presenting to us today. They are more than welcome to make any final comments. It is great to have open discussions such as this one this afternoon.

If there is no other business, we will adjourn until Tuesday, 18 May 2021.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.13 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 18 May 2021.
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