Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 7 Oct 2003

Vol. 1 No. 14

Long-Term Care: Presentation.

The next matter on the agenda is a presentation by James Kehoe of Mercer Consultants. This body produced a report entitled, The Future Financing of Long Term Care in Ireland, and I think a number of committee members were at the presentation Mr. Kehoe made to the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Coughlan, and the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, in Government buildings during the summer. Thus, we should be fairly succinct in our questioning rather than making speeches. We should focus on a particular aspect of the presentation, rather than having the rigmarole of long speeches. In fairness to ourselves we have carried out a significant amount of work on carers and we want to get on to preparing the report. Thus, I call on the committee to keep things fairly focused and targeted and to make good use of the time available.

We have with us today Mr. James Kehoe and Ms. Aisling Kennedy of Mercer Consultants. Mr. Kehoe will outline the main points of the report. I remind our visitors that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Mr. Kehoe and Ms. Kennedy and thank them very much for attending to make a presentation. We have already received some material from them that will be helpful in following the format of the presentation and should facilitate a speedier presentation and questioning.

I thank you, Chairman, Deputies and Senators for inviting us to make this presentation. This is a very comprehensive report, as members can see, and I have extracted the salient points from the presentation for the purposes of this meeting.

During the week immediately preceding the official launch of the report on 25 June 2003, and that of another report by Professor Eamon O'Shea on the review of the nursing home care subvention scheme, an extraordinarily well timed feature by journalist Breda O'Brien appeared in The Irish Times under the headline, “Carers Deserve Recognition and Practical Help.” I should like to quote the first paragraph of that article:

We are focused on hospitals in Ireland. That's not surprising, given a daily diet of stories of overflowing accident and emergency departments, long waiting lists for treatments and stark inequalities in the system. You would think that any group who help on a daily basis to keep people out of hospital and other expensive residential care facilities would be treated as saviours by the State. You would be wrong. Such a group exists. They are called carers.

Hopefully by the end of my presentation the committee will agree that the report which my colleagues and I have prepared focuses very clearly on this theme, namely the need to recognise and support carers in a meaningful way as part of a new and, in many respects, innovative strategy for providing and financing long-term care. Slide two on page two of the presentation circulated identifies the context in which this report was prepared, and it defines long-term care as, "care provided to those who are unable to look after themselves without support due to long-term physical disability or cognitive impairment disability".

The primary focus of the report is on personal or social care, as opposed to medical care. It is neither appropriate nor practicable to distinguish between the financing of medical and paramedical services for people with long-term disability and the financing of such services for those with other chronic conditions. It also needs to be recognised that two distinct groups - older people and younger people with disabilities - need long-term care. Different issues arise for the two groups. The projections in the report embrace all age groups but costings do not include special needs such as educational assistance for younger people with severe intellectual disability requiring residential care.

I turn to slide three on page three of the presentation. One might reasonably ask why this report should be prepared at this point. The answer is that demand for long-term care will inevitably rise as our population, in common with that of most developed countries, ages. This slide shows the proportion of the population that is over 65 in a number of European countries and the expected growth in the older population from 1995 to 2025. The greying of Europe, as it is commonly called, is due to the combined effects of declining overall birth rates, exacerbated by later family formation, and increasing life expectancy for older people. However, the positive picture from the slide is that at present Ireland has by far the smallest older population, and this will continue to be the case for a very long time. This gives our policymakers the opportunity to plan for future demographic change. To this end our report identifies the immediate and longer-term additional cost of a specific long-term care structure which we have proposed.

The next slide on page four emphasises the need for forward planning by depicting the incidence of disability relative to age. The exponential rise in disability rates within older age groups indicates precisely why long-term care policy must be planned well in advance to meet the changing demographic trends. Slide five outlines very basic numbers that demonstrate that long-term care is a serious and significant risk for all of us. The risk of needing residential long-term care at some stage is one in five for a man aged 65 and more than one in three for a woman aged 65. Average duration of severe disability is three years for a man and five years for a woman. Average nursing home stay is two years for a man and three for a woman.

Slide six indicates that even though the average duration of severe disability is quite short, it must be borne in mind - and this is particularly important in the design of any long-term care system - that a small percentage of older people will unfortunately experience severe disability for a very long time. The committee will see that the graph tails off, but it does go up to and beyond a period of ten years.

In formulating proposals for an expanded system of long-term care we needed to consider the present system as a starting point. The essential elements are set out on slide seven under the heading of "Financing." Financing of the present system is from general taxation and out of pocket expenditure. The public system provides both residential and community services. Funding arrangements favour residential care. We agree entirely with the emphasis in Professor O'Shea's report on the need for "assisted living facilities" and this is very much central to the system we have devised and recommended.

Turning to slide eight, a particular feature of the present system is that family members and friends provide most long-term care informally. A 2001 pilot study suggested that 52,000 people provide 20 hours or more care per week and that 79,000 people provide up to 20 hours care per week. Under the present system the carers allowance is means tested and restricted to those providing full-time care. There is an enormous gap being filled at present by family members and informal carers.

Turning to slide nine, we considered international experience as part of the exercise and found that there is no blueprint solution. Systems have evolved in a myriad of ways. There is no particular system that we can point to as being fair and reasonable and right for the Irish situation. It is abundantly clear, however, that the State must take ownership of this issue and must take the lead. Private insurance is unlikely to make any appreciable impact in solving long-term care needs. Insurance is fine for remote contingencies. However, long-term care is a probable eventuality and consequently insurance will not benefit the generality of people.

There is no obvious fit with Ireland's current two-tier health financing system. Changes in social structures mean that the provision of informal care can no longer be presumed upon. A significant shift in finance is needed towards home care and community care. That is absolutely central to our proposals. A greater degree of consumer choice is also desirable.

I intend to skip through the next few slides quite quickly as they contain a number of figures but all convey more or less the same message - that the numbers of people needing long-term care will grow fairly dramatically as our population ages. Slide ten shows the total number of people needing long-term care, based upon central projections, rising from 153,000 in 2001 to more than 270,000 in about 50 years, and rising reasonably rapidly in the interim. The numbers needing high-level care will also rise quite significantly.

In slide 11 we look at the numbers of those aged over 65 needing long-term care. This category will experience a significant rise of about 50% over the next 20 years or so, potentially doubling in the more distant future. Slide 12 indicates that as projections depend very much on assumptions we have considered a range of projections, but as the committee will see, there are certainly no downward trends. No matter how one crunches the numbers there will be a significant and constantly rising need for long-term care.

Turning to the crucial issue of benefit design, the principles, which we believe should be enshrined in a new long-term care strategy, are set out on slide 13. Subvention should be available for home care. That is absolutely central to our recommendations. The amount of home care subvention should be scaled on the basis of dependency level. Subvention should also be available to those in assisted living facilities. Benefits for home care should be offered as a choice of in kind services or cash alternative. The cash benefit alternative should be intended to support, rather than replace or fully remunerate, informal care. Turning to slide 14, any long-term care strategy clearly has to incorporate provision for residential care as and when it is absolutely needed, even though the emphasis is on home care and community care for the longest possible time period.

We suggest structuring residential care support in the following way: In terms of public provision, the full cost should be provided less 90% of the old age pension; for private provision, where continuous care is need we suggest 90% of cost less 90% of the old age pension up to a maximum of €375 per week - that figure was relative to the time we prepared the original report and is probably about two years out of date now; and for high care need we suggest 90% of cost less 90% of the old age pension, up to a lower maximum of €225 per week. Again, that is an out of date figure and will need updating as time moves on.

Turning to slide 15, for home care we suggest that financial support should vary with the level of care needed between moderate, high or continuous disability, and the care recipient should have the choice of either formal services to the same value as would otherwise apply to residential care or a cash benefit alternative at a level of approximately 60% of the cost of formal services. By not differentiating between the level of financial support available for home care or residential care we are clearly recognising that a new long-term care strategy must encourage home or community care in preference to residential care. The cash alternative is designed to support but by no means fully remunerate informal care.

In slide 16 we looked at some financial options. We do not see private savings as in any way practicable. Home care and any form of long-term care is necessarily expensive, and that simply must be recognised. Equity release certainly has a part to play and there is some interest developing in this concept. We do not see estate tax as a viable policy option, and neither do we see a financing system based on general taxation as a credible policy option. The real problem with this option is that the long-term care strategy would be subject to year-to-year budgetary constraints, and realistically, support for home care would be particularly vulnerable in that context.

So far I have managed to avoid mentioning the dreaded word "cutbacks" so I will continue to do so by ruling out the taxation option. However, that issue would arise immediately if one depended on the taxation option as a means of financing long-term care.

Turning to slide 17, we do not see long-term care insurance as having anything other than a marginal role to play as a means of financing long-term care. It may well benefit the better off as a means of sheltering assets but it will not play any meaningful part in providing long-term care for the generality of people. The possibility of allowing retirees to take an additional lump sum to pay a premium for long-term care insurance may have some merit but I doubt very much if it would have any real impact. Essentially, insurance and tax subsidies simply will not work. They are too expensive and the incidence is too great. I keep coming back to the description of long-term care as "a probable eventuality" rather than a remote contingency. Consequently, insurance will simply not work for the generality of people.

Turning to slide 18, having ruled out so much, what are we ruling in? Of all the policy options available we are firmly of the view that social insurance is really the way forward. There would be good public support for a strong statutory entitlement to benefit financed by enhanced PRSI contributions. The essential difference between the taxation and insurance options is that the latter provides a statutory entitlement and gives rise to a firm sense of ownership, just like the old age pension. One has paid one's PRSI contributions and receives an entitlement based on contributions paid over one's working life. That principal should underpin a future long-term care strategy. The formula is simple - everybody pays and many, if not most, people will benefit.

Turning to slide 19, as regards partnership options for residential care, we have considered two possible structures. One is a "front end" option whereby a non-means tested benefit would be provided for a period of, say, one year, and the benefit would be means tested thereafter. Such a structure would be practicable and would ease the burden on the State very significantly. It would be socially equitable by, for example, enabling assets, including vacant housing assets, to be used to finance long-term care beyond the first year. A possible alternative partnership option is to provide the means tested benefit at the front end for, say, a two year period with the State taking full financial responsibility thereafter. In that event insurance could be used to some extent perhaps to finance two years' care, the difference being that there is an absolute limit on the level of insurance that would apply. Again, however, it would only help the well off and would not benefit the generality of people.

Slide 21 looks at the two options, and we see advantages and disadvantages to either structure. However, we strongly favour the front end option on the basis that it is more practical operationally; it would facilitate and encourage rehabilitation back to home care or community care, and it would thereby alleviate pressure on acute care hospitals, which must be a central aim of a viable system. The back end option, on the other hand, would provide more risk pooling and peace of mind for extended long-term care recipients. However, it would be difficult to administer and is not socially equitable, as it would enable the better off to shelter assets.

Turing to slide 22, our three fundamental conclusions are that social insurance financing offers most advantages; we favour a partnership approach to residential care; and we favour "front end" cover for residential care, with cover for home care throughout the duration of need.

Slide 23 picks up on the issue of costs. A realistic long-term care strategy to meet the needs of a caring society is by no means cheap. We estimate that the additional cost in terms of extra PRSI contributions would initially be 1.5% for each of the three social partners, namely, employees, employers and the self-employed. We would expect this to remain reasonably stable for about 15 to 20 years but it could be expected to rise thereafter if current demographic trends continue.

Finally, slide 24 outlines implementation issues. First, a nationwide and continuous needs assessment process needs to be developed. Appropriate levels of benefit for various levels of dependency need to be determined. A national information campaign should be undertaken to raise levels of awareness. Options for preventative measures need to be considered and "assisted living facilities" need to be further developed.

I opened my presentation with the first paragraph of Breda O'Brien's Irish Times article, and I can think of no better way to conclude than with the final paragraph of the same article:

Most of us will grow old. Some of us will be frail and needy in old age. Many of us would hope that family members would be willing and able to care for us. When we skim over the plight of carers, perhaps we should remember a rather grim application of the Lotto slogan - it could be you.

The only change I would suggest to Breda's conclusion is that on the basis of the figures I have shown the committee this afternoon, the slogan for long-term care should read "it probably will be you!"

I thank Mr. Kehoe for his presentation, and the useful slide format that made it simple to absorb. We will now have questions.

I compliment Mr. Kehoe on an excellent presentation. I was present on the morning of the launch of the report also. Mercer Consultants may have been using these statistics for two years but they are certainly on the ball. I also compliment Breda O'Brien of The Irish Times, who wrote an excellent series of articles on the elderly. We have been discussing the issue of carers for the past few months, and there is no doubt that the issue is a time bomb ready to explode. The big question is how we finance care. I read the other day that there are 24,000 beds, I think, in this country between private and public. There are actually more private than public beds. The report I read showed that the private beds are cheaper for the State than the public ones.

There is one issue I thought Mercer Consultants might deal with in the report but did not. The Ombudsman made it clear in a report a number of years ago that the State is obliged by law to provide a public bed to anyone who has a medical card and is over 65 years of age. I ask the witnesses to comment on that. There is another issue I wish to ask them about which they may have looked at. I have people coming to my constituency office asking questions about subventions. Do the witnesses think it is fair that people's homes are included as income in assessing their means and that they must get their homes valued? When a person enters a State or public home the last thing they think about is the possibility that they will not leave it alive.

I had a case recently where the people concerned had no real revenue but did have a very substantial property. We have not taken a political decision as to whether we are in favour of people having to re-mortgage their property or whatever to pay for their stay in a State home. Is it fair that elderly people, particularly those with no family members, are frightened into a situation whereby their actual home is included in an evaluation? People may want to pass the home on to a relative, and that raises another issue of what responsibility relatives have and what should be done with property. It is wrong in one way that we have relatives who will substantially gain from somebody dying, while at the same time the taxpayer is expected to pick up the tab if that person is ill. I ask the witnesses to comment on the Ombudsman's report, even though it may not be their brief, and on the property issue.

Ms Aisling Kennedy

I shall answer the question in relation to entitlement to services. We do address this briefly in the report, and the view of the Ombudsman is that there is an entitlement. We understand that this view is not adhered to by everybody but we did note in the report that the health strategy document, "Quality and Fairness: A Health System for You", published in 2001 provided for a review of legislation with the objective of providing a clearer national framework for entitlement to services.

It is noted in that document that the Ombudsman has drawn attention to the eligibility issue in relation to older people's requirement for long-term residential care. It states in that report that clarification of entitlement in this regard will be given particular attention in the general review of legislation on entitlement. We did consider the issue, but we ultimately considered it to be beyond the remit of our report to come to a conclusion on an issue on which there is clearly debate. We had envisaged that clarification might have come by the time we had concluded our report but that did not prove to be the case.

I am not too sure there is an easy answer to Deputy Ring's second question on the issue of whether a person's residence should be taken into account in assessing one's means. In the final analysis it is probably a question of balance. It should not be taken into account where there is any reasonable expectation that a person can be rehabilitated back into their home situation or where there is a dependent relative living in the home. It goes without saying that it should certainly not be taken into account in any of those circumstances.

Whether it should ever be taken into account is another issue. This is one of the reasons why we need to look at practical means of financing long-term care. The front-end system suggests that it will not be taken into account in any shape or form for a specified time duration. Bear in mind that the average time a person spends in residential care is relatively short. A situation where for a period of at least one year there is no question of taking anything into account would be a big improvement over the present situation, where there is uncertainty from the very start. At least one has the comfort of knowing that for a prescribed period, however long that may be, there is absolutely no question of any change in one's status, and it is only after that period of time that this could happen.

In the normal course of events, it would become clear within this period whether a person would be permanently in long-term care. That is the issue at stake. If it is clear that a person is going to be in care permanently, it is not necessarily fair that they should be in a position to pass on their home to a relative at the expense of the tax-paying public. That is essentially what would happen without some limitation on the extent to which a vacant housing asset can be taken into account.

Like my colleagues I welcome this report and welcome our guests. The debate has now focused on the real problem and real challenge. All of us who, in our daily business deal with families who are affected in this regard, know that it does cause a great deal of distress. I agree with Deputy Ring in that regard. Many families come to me when faced with the prospect of making the decisions that Mr. Kehoe has just mentioned. It is a huge challenge for them and is a question of finding a balance.

I hope the Minister will be watching these proceedings because it is important that we understand the challenges posed by the whole question of future financing of long-term care. We are being told that we are an ageing society. I live in Tallaght, which has a huge young population, but as I go about my business I focus on the fact that we are ageing. I do not know whether I am representative of that age development but there are certainly more elderly people in my constituency, which presents challenges. This is particularly so when one looks at the difficulties our hospitals are experiencing. Not a day goes by that I do not hear about the great difficulties in all the general hospitals throughout the country. There are problems involved in looking after people, and it is a question of whether people need to be in hospital beds or in long-term accommodation.

We should also look at the report more broadly and consider the position of carers and those who give up their time to care for the elderly and infirm. We have heard many presentations on this topic, and I note that we again have recommendations before us today on this issue. Presumably in a perfect world, the Government would be able to take on board all the recommendations, but it is not as simple as that. I do not want to use the word "challenging" again but that is exactly what it is.

If I am pressed to ask a question, it is, where do we go from here? As a parliamentarian I am always sensitive, as are all my colleagues, about the number of reports we receive. Not a week goes by that we do not receive a great number of very good, excellent and meaningful reports, but my sense is that we need to see where we are going with them, and this is certainly so in relation to the business before us. The problem will not go away and the challenge will always be with us. I ask our guests to stress a handful of the recommendations on which they would like action to be taken now. What would be their priorities?

The first and immediate priority is a decision in principle that there is a need for a new, comprehensive and universally applicable system of long-term care to replace the present system over time. The primary factor underpinning that should be the need to recognise that the focus should be on home care and community care as opposed to residential care. We should have a system which has as its absolute focus the need to ensure that the resources will be provided to enable people to remain in their home or community for as long as possible.

The system we have suggested would meet those objectives, and the absolute priority in looking to the future is to get the social partners to agree that these objectives need to be planned for and that we need to start now in financing them. Social partners must accept the enhanced PRSI contributions required as immediate costs to achieve those aims. The aims are achievable but we must all be prepared to pay that extra 1.5% in PRSI contributions. That will probably be the most difficult decision to take, and this needs to be brought right into the arena involving the social partners at the first available opportunity. They must focus on the employers; employees and the self employed paying an extra 1.5%. It is a big cost but there will also be big benefits.

It is worth bearing in mind that one in five men and one in three women over the age of 65 will benefit from this. It is an expensive level of care to provide but if we face the challenge of being a caring society this will be necessary. The biggest challenge is to get the social partners to accept the need to look realistically at the extra PRSI contributions needed and at the principle of financing that care through the medium of social insurance.

I compliment Mr. Kehoe and Ms Kennedy on an excellent presentation that was very clear and concise. Deputy O'Connor posed the question as to where we go from here, and in answering that we must first look at the existing situation and ask whether there is a specific commitment to long-term care for older people.

The Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, and the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Coughlan, were at the launch of this report and have advanced it as a direction in which to go in the future. The statistics show very clearly that we have a major problem at present. There are frail, elderly people crying in pain, with, perhaps, an elderly partner, husband or wife trying to look after them despite being ill themselves. There is a long waiting list for long-term care. At the same time, there could be more than 2,000 unoccupied private beds available. There is no commitment to try to dovetail the needs of people with the availability of beds. Throughout the length and breadth of the country there are public beds unoccupied in nursing homes, where elderly people could be given proper care.

There is a specific commitment from the Government, and from the same Ministers who were at the launch, not to provide the finance to deal with these people at present. How can any of us look at this report and believe that the Government is committed to dealing with the issues? Rather than trying to help and support people we have further cutbacks in home help. Some home help to care for people is not being provided, and then the Government says it is looking forward to financing long-term care. Public and private beds need to be linked to give people some care and attention.

We are talking about trying to deal with subventions and helping people who are utilising every penny they have, whether their little bit of savings, their pensions or what their sons and daughters can come up with. The cutbacks in subventions are making it virtually impossible for people, apart from the super rich, to get access to even the private beds. That is the reality of life out there and the Government is not concerned. Government members are letting it go over their heads and other choices are being made.

The Labour Party is very much in favour of providing subventions to keep people at home, and I recognise and fully support that concept in this report. Old people say they would prefer to stay at home and be cared for than to be sent to residential care. To deal with that we must provide a subvention for their children or other relatives to look after them and provide services at home. That cannot happen unless the services are provided in the community. That is another issue that has not been addressed and it could, perhaps, be looked at in another report. It must the addressed in the context of linking services, subventions and allowing people to be cared for in the home.

The Government, and the Ministers responsible, have a great deal to do to convince me of their commitment to implementing the recommendations of this report. I have not heard either Minister comment on this issue since the report was produced. This report has to be sold to the public. We are talking about looking at different options for financing long-term care for our older people, for ourselves into the future. The general public feels they are paying enough, and they might say they are already paying through the taxation system. I have no difficulty in making choices when it comes to providing care for the elderly. The option recommended in the report is for extra PRSI contributions. Mercer Consultants feel that this option is best. I ask the witnesses to outline why the social insurance system would not be as suitable as the PRSI system they have prioritised because there is a different school of thought on that issue.

I wish to refer to slides 19, 20 and 21, which relate to partnership options for residential care. What is meant by the "front-end" option and "back-end" option? I ask the witnesses to develop those a little. At the end of the day, long-term care for the elderly has to be paid for. The report has to be sold, but it will take more than Mercer Consultants to do that, and a great deal of responsibility will rest with the Ministers to put the case forward.

There are a couple of questions there for Mr. Kehoe.

In the first instance, I agree with the level of urgency expressed by the Deputy on current requirements. That level of urgency is rising as time passes, and our report is designed exactly to address that issue. I also agree absolutely that the focus should be more on keeping people at home and providing the resources necessary to keep people in their own homes for as long as possible. That is central to the system we have suggested.

The difference between the current system and the one we have suggested is essentially that we are absolutely of the view that irrespective of whether people are in residential care or at home, they should be entitled to the same level of care and support. That is the central theme of our recommendations, and it means providing additional services in a home care situation which are only available, on a fairly rigid means tested basis, in residential care at present. We are suggesting that the focus should be on home care, so we are at one with the Deputy on that.

The difference between the "front-end" and the "back-end" approach is very simple. The front-end approach means that for a prescribed period of time, if it is established that a person needs long-term care there will be absolutely no question of means testing. The person would be provided with whatever level of long-term care is needed before there is any means testing involved in a residential situation. If it is absolutely established that there is no alternative but to provide residential care then that will be provided without any means test for a prescribed time period. That gives that person and his or her relatives time to sort out longer-term requirements. We would have a period of, say, one year without any questions being asked, and once it is established medically, practically or whatever the criteria might be that a person absolutely needs residential care, then that care should be provided. At the end of the prescribed period it would become a means tested benefit. That is what we mean by the front-end option.

In the back-end option, for a prescribed period the benefit would be means tested at the front. In other words, the residential care would only be provided subject to a means test from day one. However, when a person has been in residential care for a period of, say, two years, subject to a means test, the State would take up the running thereafter.

In the first instance everything is provided up front and there is a means test at the back-end, and in the second option the means test is at the front-end and the State picks up the tab at the back-end. The back-end approach has the disadvantage that it is essentially means tested from the start and there are all sorts of issues arising out of that. It is not as practicable and decisions cannot be made as quickly. Decisions need to be made quickly where residential care is concerned. That is the essential difference between the front-end and back-end options, and our strong preference, for all sorts of reasons, is the front-end option. It is much easier operationally because no questions are asked and the care is provided.

The emphasis on home care is central to our recommendation and the resources need to be there, but the additional cost is the issue. Society must be prepared to provide that additional cost, and it is an additional cost over and above what the existing system costs. We are talking about 1.5% in extra PRSI contributions from all three parties - employees, employers and the self-employed - which is a lot of money. That is our best estimate of the true cost of the kind of comprehensive level of care the Deputy has described. It is the only type of care that will alleviate the plight of the people he has described.

I welcome the report. It is very practical and, in fairness, contains many answers. I was surprised at the number of elderly people in Ireland compared with other countries. I thought the number was much higher. The witnesses have gone over the introduction of a home-based subvention again and again. I have been a supporter of that for a long time and it gives two benefits: first, people want to stay at home, and second, it offers a choice and creates a bit of competition between the nursing homes and home-based subvention. Every time subventions go up nursing home costs seem to rise as well. Both subvention and home help are demand-led schemes. There seems to be a fear among health boards all over the country that the Department will not fund these schemes when costs reach a certain height, so it is important that all these schemes be demand led.

The witnesses talked about home-based subvention at a 60% level, and I wonder whether that is high enough to create competition and meet the reality of what is needed. They are talking about an increase of 1.5% in PRSI contributions and giving one year of care for free. Does that sound like a good deal to the ordinary punter, if I can put it that way? People do want to see something being done in this area and are prepared to pay for it, but it is hard to say whether they are prepared to pay for just one year at that kind of cost. However, the idea is very good and I compliment the witnesses on the report.

Ms Kennedy

On the home-based subvention, one of the reasons we came down in favour of social insurance in the report as the best financing option is that the entitlement to services, whether demand led or a full entitlement, is stronger in a social insurance benefit than in a benefit financed in any other way. Once it is structured into the social insurance system it is effectively then a full entitlement provided that one meets the criteria. It is not supply led or driven by the available funding in a particular year.

Moving on to the level of the subvention, we envisage three alternatives in the report. At one end of the spectrum will be people who need residential care, and then there will be people who can be cared for at home. Those being cared for at home may or may not have family members available to provide care. The cash benefits that we talk about in the report are intended to apply where family members are providing the care. To the extent that family members are not available to care we would see the level of benefit being commensurate with the level of benefit that would be provided for residential care. Where services are provided formally, whether at home or in a residential setting, the level of benefit would be the same. The level of benefit, as a cash alternative, is lower because family care should not be seen as a substitute for care that should be provided by the State and should be remunerated but we saw the cash benefit as a support for family carers and that was why we went for a lower level.

On what people would get for their PRSI benefit, the report used one year as an example. It is a matter of policy to decide what the cut off point should be but one year should apply to residential care benefits only. There would not be a cut off time for home care meaning that home care entitlement would continue throughout the period of need. The costings in the report of 1.5% are the cost of providing unlimited residential care. It would be slightly lower if there was a cut off point because the vast majority of people only need care for a relatively short time.

I welcome the report and the excellent presentation. The statistics highlight our expanding population and there will be a great burden of care in the years ahead. In addition, a smaller proportion of workers will be supporting an ageing population and a major cost will be involved, which will fall primarily on workers. Ms Kennedy commented on private insurance versus PRSI. The figure of 1.5% is reasonable and I am delighted, like other members, she focused on home care. A great deal of pressure would be taken off nursing homes if a subvention payment was provided for home care.

I wish to refer to one difficulty, in particular, that I encounter frequently in my constituency. An incapacitated person usually needs to make alterations to his or her house for which the disabled person's grant is provided. If budgetary savings are needed, grants such as this are cut. What is Ms Kennedy's view on the grant?

She referred to a template for home care and the assessed levels of need. I am concerned about interpretations of moderate, high and continuous levels of care as they are subjective and there are dangers involved. While I welcome the provision of funding to people confined to home, if a statutory basis is provided for that, will people be told there is money available and they should take care of themselves so that pressure is taken off nursing homes and public beds? Will relatives have a choice in this regard? Two relatives could be in the same position with one preferring to receive subvention in a private or public hospital bed and the other preferring to stay at home.

On the issue of choice, a nationwide, consistent needs assessment structure must be put in place. I agree there is inevitably an element of judgment as to what constitutes high, moderate or continuous care but, nevertheless, there must be a system that will meet that challenge.

Ms Kennedy

One of the issues emphasised strongly in the report is how needs assessment is conducted and there is a myriad of different systems of needs assessment depending on the type of benefit in question. An essential building block prior to introducing the benefit structures mentioned in the report is a comprehensive national objective consistent method of needs assessment under which there are clear criteria and a clear basis for assessing the level of need that people have and determining the level of benefit available in respect of that need. The Deputy is correct that is fundamental because without that there is scope for the cost of these benefits to escalate out of control. Without the needs assessment system as a building block it would not be possible to move forward.

There are three categories going from €113 per week to €375 per week. There is a difference of more than €100 for a person who is hovering between moderate and high dependency. If a sliding scale of 0 to 10 was used, the financial penalty would not be so great if one was in a lower category. It is likely, given that finances are tight, people will be pushed back a category to save money whereas a sliding scale would eliminate that eventuality.

If that system were practicable operationally, it would have a great deal going for it because with only three categories there is a tendency to put a person in the higher category given the extra money available. It is a question of what is practical. If it is practical to have a wider scale under which financial support would vary from a factor of 1:10 rather than 1:3, that system could work.

Ms Kennedy

It is worth emphasising the benefits suggested in the report from a template benefit structure. It is a sample benefit structure rather than what is envisaged ultimately as being the benefits. The needs assessment process would have to get under way first followed by the development of criteria and categories. At that stage the benefit structure would be finalised. We were trying to match the categories of need that were used for the projections with a sample benefit structure to give people an idea of what might be involved for the purposes of the report.

I refer to the disabled person's grant. A key part of keeping people at home is making necessary adaptions in terms of stairs and aids. The report refers to the assessment of each individual's needs and the agreement of an appropriate package of care within their level of dependency. That should include, where appropriate, expenditure in respect of housing adaptations. This overall umbrella structure for financing long-term care will subsume the different tax reliefs and grants that are available currently.

The existing system uses moderate, high and continuous care criteria and, therefore, we can build on that in so far as it is practicable to do so.

I welcome the delegation. If we are to be a caring society, workers and employees should support the proposal to increase PRSI by 1.5%. All of us face old age if death does not claim us in the meantime. Slide 13 is the most important in the presentation. It lists five measures, which, if implemented, would alleviate much of the difficulties and enhance the long-term care strategy for elderly people. I assure Deputy Seán Ryan no beds are available in public hospitals in the west and very few private beds are available.

My facts are correct.

That is the case in the west and other members will support me.

I echo Deputy Carty's comment on slide 13. Those five points are central to the issues that must be given priority and they are absolutely crucial to our report.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss the report and welcome the frank answers the committee has been given. Mr. Kehoe referred to what would happen if there was a cutback in slide 16. If there are budgetary constraints, support for home care will be vulnerable. We have witnessed this. For instance, in the North-Eastern Health Board region, half of the home help hours have been cut and that is serious. I spoke to a constituent at a nursing home last Sunday who is waiting on subvention for a relative who is in his 100th year. Another issue in this regard is the doctor on call at the nursing home must be paid €25 per patient when he is called so that he can fill report forms. The elderly and people with disabilities are taking the rap in terms of cutbacks.

Home subvention is an important issue. Carer's benefit was introduced a number of years ago to enable people to leave employment and care for elderly relatives but very few employees have taken that up. That demonstrates the support provided through the benefit does not justify a person leaving his or her job. Is Mr. Kehoe satisfied the home subvention proposed in the report will encourage people to give up their jobs for six months or a year to look after their loved ones at home, thereby minimising the cost to the State?

Deputy Connolly believes the PRSI proposal does not add up to much. However, I am worried that in the Border region employers are under severe constraints because of competition. It is all right to say it is only 1.5% but it is an extra cost to employers, which could be significant in terms of industry. It would not have mattered two years ago, for example, in the high tech industry but the proposal might even affect that industry now.

I welcome the report because the State faces serious problems in terms of caring for the aged and people with disabilities. I have raised on a number of occasions the case of an 84 year-old woman who has two handicapped children. She could not even get them into a home for two weeks of respite care so that she could take a holiday. That is how serious is the problem. A way must be found to finance a proper structure if such trauma is to be alleviated.

Many private sector employers were encouraged to enter the nursing home business. They were told subvention and other grants would be available. The number of elderly people, particularly in the Border area, justified major expansion in nursing home care. However, only two nursing homes were opened in my constituency. One is located outside Monaghan town and it is less than one quarter full while another home is located in south Monaghan, which is less than half full. The owners of the nursing homes are aggrieved that limited funds are provided to health boards for subvention and that the provision of subvention is not demand-led. When people commit themselves to provide such a service, they are tied to health board structures and must employ health board nurses 24 hours a day. That is only right but how can one remain in business if one's home is less than half full?

Has an estimate been done of the number of people aged over 65 who will be in need of care in the three categories over the next 20 years? Has a projection been done of the cost of that care, assuming the numbers in those categories double over the next 40 years? Was an examination conducted on the carer's allowance? Was the abolition of the means test considered? The allowance provides people with an opportunity to remain in their home environment, which Mr. Kehoe favours. He has advocated subvention for home care, with which I am thrilled. I would not have a problem paying more PRSI if I was given a choice to ensure a proper funding structure was in place. That may well have other implications and it is important that the social partners should discuss the proposal. It is estimated that up to 120,000 people care for loved ones and friends. Was consideration given to the abolition of the means test for the carer's allowance or the use of the allowance as a poor equivalent for the subvention of home care?

Ms Kennedy

We did not examine the carer's allowance in isolation because we are tasked with taking an overview of the financing of long-term care and examining it in totality and the carer's allowance is one part of the entire picture. We were anxious not to examine isolated options because changes to the carer's allowance would impact on other parts of the system and it was important to focus on long-term care in its totality. If our recommendations were implemented, a much higher proportion of carers would receive benefit through the provision of subvention to the person for whom they care. It would happen, therefore, in a different way.

I refer to Deputy Crawford's questions, one of which related to whether the proposed benefits would be sufficient to encourage people to give up work to care. We were not examining a structure that was trying necessarily to do that. We were trying to suggest a level of benefit that would be adequate to support family carers who wish to care. Increased participation in the labour force, particularly by women, will mean fewer family members will be available for caring.

On our model, we assumed that 50% of people in need of continuous care would receive care in future from a family member and 50% would avail of formal services from paid care providers. For people in need of less care and whom family members who could continue to participate in the labour force, could care for, the level of informal care would remain at a higher level more commensurate with what it is currently.

I refer to the supply and availability of services and the experience of nursing homes in regard to the subvention scheme. The report highlights it is important to get the financing in place first and the supply of services will follow. We examined the UK experience and that was the case there. Where financing became available for independent service providers both in the community and residential settings, the supply developed from a base where there was little provision other than by local authorities. When we examined it, 47% of home care was provided by independent service providers in areas such as respite care, home assistants, home help and so on.

It is argued there is no point in providing finance because there is nobody available to provide the service and take up the finance but we came to the view financing needed to come first and the supply would then develop.

I agree with Deputy Seán Ryan that we are hypocritical because if we were serious about the elderly, cutbacks would not affect home help and the disabled person's grant. Local authorities have rejected almost 100% of applications for both. No mention has been made of young people with disabilities. This is another minefield because the State is not facing up to supporting them in terms of their educational and health needs, including facilities in their homes. Bigger and better houses are being built and perhaps the Government should consider radical legislation whereby future applications for planning permission should make provision for wheelchair accessibility. It is the case for businesses but that should also apply to private dwellings.

It is difficult for young people to buy houses but the Government could consider giving them a grant or tax break to add a granny flat to their homes so that they could look after their parents when they get older. If they did not take up the grant, they could return it to the State. We must look to the future and radical plans are needed because what is happening currently is not working. We will have more problems in future as a result.

The report states 48,300 people needed a high level of care in 2001. What level of care is available now?

Ms Kennedy

I will reply regarding young people with disabilities before coming to Deputy Ryan's question. Although we have primarily debated the needs of older people, our report covers both young and old people and the proposed benefits will apply regardless of age. The costings also reflect that. However, the issue of young people with intellectual disabilities needs to be dealt with separately. We did not envisage that would come under this umbrella structure. However, it was envisaged the structure would apply not only to older people in need of long-term care but also to younger people whose disability means they have a similar need for personal care.

On the number needing care and the level of care available currently, we were not tasked with surveying the current availability of services. There is information in the report regarding the number of beds and bed occupancy but not in regard to home-based services.

What is the figure?

Ms Kennedy

Page 40 of the report states the number of extended care beds for 2000, which was the latest statistic available when we drafted the report. It was 22,336, which represented an increase of 20% since 1994. The latest figure we had on occupancy rates related to 1996. The national occupancy rate was 93%. That compared favourably with international occupancy rates for nursing homes. For example, the average occupancy rate in the US was 87% in 1995. It is not possible to achieve 100% occupancy and this comes to the fore in all discussions about acute hospitals. There are times when people must wait for a bed that is not available. The highest level of occupancy is of the order of 95%.

I thank Mr. Kehoe and Ms Kennedy for their presentation and the diligent manner in which they replied to questions posed by the committee. The committee is paying attention to this topic and we are in the process of drafting a report on the position of full-time carers in terms of current welfare policy and practices and voluntary and statutory support structures. This report is useful in terms of feeding into our report. We may seek permission to use statistics in theMercer report because they are valuable. The exchanges between the consultants and committee members have been useful. Members asked questions based on their own experiences and work on the ground. I thank both consultants for the comprehensive manner in which they addressed the committee's questions. We look forward to them evaluating our report and asking us questions. We might not be so feisty in that regard.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.30 p.m. and adjourned at 3.45 p.m.

Barr
Roinn