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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 4 Nov 2003

Vol. 1 No. 15

Community Welfare Service: Presentation.

On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome the members of the delegation of the SIPTU executive group representing members of the community welfare service. The group has a number of concerns about the role and future development of the community welfare service and the extent of its involvement in discussion on the review of the service. We are looking forward to exploring these issues in greater detail.

Members of this committee, particularly in their capacity as constituency representatives, are very aware of the important role played by those who deliver the community welfare service. We want to ensure that the service can operate to its full potential and I hope our discussion today will be of assistance in that regard.

The SIPTU executive group is represented by Mr. Tony Quilty, Mr. Tony Walsh, Mr. Greg Price, Mr. Pat Lennon and Mr. Joe McGloin. I understand Mr. Quilty will be making a presentation on behalf of the group. We have received in good time a very extensive submission, for which I thank the delegates. Perhaps Mr. Quilty will summarise the submission, after which there will be an exchange of questions and answers during which any member of the group may contribute.

Mr. Tony Quilty

I thank the committee for inviting us. As I will demonstrate, we feel totally excluded from a series of processes that could well determine what our future, individually and collectively, will be, along with the nature and quality of the service we provide. That the committee has granted us time to address this is a source of great encouragement to us. As the Chairman stated, I have submitted an extensive presentation. I will make a précis of it if I can, in the interest of speed.

Perhaps Mr. Quilty will outline what role the delegates play in the service.

Mr. Quilty

I am superintendent community welfare officer in the Mid-Western Health Board. Mr. Tony Walsh is a full-time union official branch secretary with SIPTU. Mr. Price is complaints and appeals officer in the South-Eastern Health Board and Messrs Lennon and McGloin are both acting superintendent community welfare officers in the eastern region.

As most members of the committee will be aware, we in the community welfare service administer the supplementary welfare allowance scheme, provide information and advocacy for our customers, as well as assessment of various entitlements for health services. A large part of our work concerns the delivery of supplementary welfare allowance and it is to this end that we are addressing the committee today.

From the perspective of SIPTU, we feel we are very much under the microscope, and have been in recent years because we were subject to a series of reviews involving our service. One review was carried out by the rent-mortgages group of 1996, whereby an interdepartmental committee was set up to examine the future of the rents-mortgages-payments. This group reported in 1999 and brought about the setting up of another interdepartmental committee, the rent planning group. The unions were refused direct access to the process, despite our requests, and were limited to making a submission.

The supplementary welfare allowance review group was set up in 2000 and was to be a root and branch examination of supplementary welfare allowance and its future. It had a series of meetings in 2000 but did not meet again until recent weeks. Again, the unions were refused membership of the committee. A back-to-school review group, which was another interdepartmental committee, was set up to examine the back-to-school scheme administered by our service. It met over a series of years and apparently finished its work recently. Again, the unions were refused membership of the group. Another interdepartmental group, the needs assessment group, was set up to examine the adequacy of payments made to asylum seekers. It has finished its deliberations and presented a report to the Minister, and it would appear that no further action has been taken. Once again, we in the unions were refused membership of the committee. Members of the committee will now understand why we feel so grateful that we have been allowed present our case.

The supplementary welfare allowance scheme has been in operation since 1977. The initial legislation, the Social Welfare (Supplementary Welfare Allowances) Act 1975, has been replaced by the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act 1993. The scheme is administered by community welfare officers in the health boards under the general direction and control of the Minister for Social and Family Affairs. There are almost 700 community welfare officers and 53 superintendents employed by the health boards.

When the scheme was set up by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare, Mr. Frank Cluskey, it was intended to be more than a mere cash response. It was seen to have a wider social objective of playing a major role in the community, intervening in a positive manner with a comprehensive range of non-monetary social work services to try to help break the cycle of poverty in which some families found themselves. The scheme was seen as an integral part of the overall social welfare income maintenance structure. To quote the Official Report of 24 June 1975, Mr. Cluskey stated:

Such a service should also help those whose needs are inadequately met under the major schemes and those confronted with emergency situations. . . . The problems of those who will need to avail of these allowances will, in most cases, be of a nature calling for more than a mere cash response.

He also said that organising the administration of the social welfare allowance scheme through the health boards "will enable the service to be operated within the framework of the community care services of these boards." This was clearly his intention.

It was Mr. Cluskey's contention, therefore, that the service was best placed in the context of a holistic, multi-disciplinary, locally based service delivery model within the health boards. It is our contention that this still applies today and we are here because we fear there is an attempt to place us under the exclusive control of the Department of Social and Family Affairs. We contend that such a placement would interfere with the flexibility with which we currently administer the scheme and that we would be heading towards a more prescriptive, rather than discretionary, model of service delivery. It would also be to the detriment of the approach that Mr. Cluskey outlined.

In suggesting the way forward, a brief examination of the Official Report of the time the legislation was introduced is relevant. Principal issues that were highlighted in the debates were: the need to ensure basic minimum income for everyone; the need for uniform application of basic rates and means tests throughout the country; the pressing need to eliminate the stigma attached to recipients; the need to alleviate poverty and prevent its recurrence; the need for a flexible system which could respond speedily to individual needs; the need to have a community based welfare service not just providing cash assistance but also wide-ranging information advocacy and referral services.

In its section 16 publication pertaining to freedom of information, the Department of Social and Family Affairs reflects its view of the scheme as simply a supplementary income maintenance scheme and its lack of interest in the development of a full community welfare service, as originally envisaged. It is not clear when the Department lost sight of the welfare role, but it has undoubtedly slipped from its agenda. The welfare role remains an intrinsic and inseparable part of our service but it has not been allowed to develop because of the use of the scheme to compensate for shortcomings in the Department's mainstream schemes, among other things. Is it significant that the word "welfare" has been removed from the Department's title?

The scheme now caters for a vastly greater number of people than it did in the 1970s, which shows that it was capable of responding to need. Its success in responding to the vastly increased needs - particularly as unemployment grew in the 1980s - has meant that it has been confined to the income maintenance role only and not allowed to develop. It has been effective in providing minimum income, it has responded to the needs of people living in the private rented sector and it has dealt with emerging needs. The asylum seeker issue serves as a prime example in this respect; when we were asked to deal with something that arose relatively unexpectedly, we answered the call. Unfortunately, the scheme has been burdened with meeting needs for which it was not designed and which mainstream services could address more appropriately. This has resulted in its trying, but not being fully able, to realise its wider welfare role.

Another area of major concern is the increase in the amount of rent supplements, which community welfare officers have to administer. The increase is due to a myriad of factors but largely due to the slowing down in building by local authorities in the 1980s and 1990s. We accept the conclusion of the interdepartmental committee Report on the Administration of Rent and Mortgage Interest Assistance of 1999 that rent assistance, where it is appropriate to meet housing needs, should be delivered by local authorities as part of and integrated into housing policy. Ideally, total responsibility for all aspects of housing should rest with the local authorities and therefore all rent supplements should be implemented by them, rather than making the cherry-picking proposals they made previously.

We also accept that social welfare allowance is not beyond requiring change. Our Blueprint for the Development of Community Welfare, which we have made available to the committee, suggests a number of changes to both mainstream social welfare and supplementary welfare. By doing so, we show we are open to change. We also address the question of asylum seekers and the necessity for them to enjoy equal access to social welfare allowance, which is not happening at present.

The community welfare service should be a specialist one, not confined to decisions of income maintenance and the delivery of cash payments but involved together with other relevant services in empowering people to get out of poverty. My board, the Mid-Western Health Board, has specialist community welfare officers dealing with homelessness and asylum seekers, and one who deals exclusively with disabilities in a certain geographical area. We have a community welfare officer dealing with elderly care on a pilot basis. Such community welfare officers can contact all local groups, GPs, clergy, etc., to try to reach those who do not know we exist or do not apply for our services. There are similar examples throughout the country.

This was the original role envisaged for the Community Welfare Service in the 1970s by Mr. Cluskey. It is a role we have never been able to fully realise because of the way in which the social welfare allowance system has been used over the years to compensate for the deficiencies in mainstream services. It is a role that community welfare officers wish to develop fully, have the ability to carry out and which our clients need. The community welfare officer job description refers to the necessity to relieve social distress and, where possible, prevent its recurrence. It is accepted that poverty is a multi-faceted problem that cannot be dealt with by income maintenance alone. It was originally envisaged that the community welfare officer would have a much wider role. The community welfare officer was seen as being involved with public health nurses and social workers in identifying the welfare needs of an area, co-operating and dealing with families and identifying gaps or unnecessary overlaps.

Community welfare officers were to provide more than an income maintenance service. It was also expected that they would provide a gateway or information referral services for other services. We are also seen as having what is now called an advocacy role. Community welfare officers fulfil this to some extent but are unable to fully realise it.

The wider welfare role is now more necessary than ever and we should concentrate on two main areas, namely, integration of services within the health boards or whatever structure replaces the boards and integration with other relevant services, including information, referral or advocacy roles.

The main advantages of the community welfare service are that it is based in the community, available everywhere and assesses need on an individual basis and not in a group-led or category-led fashion. Most reasonable sized towns have a community welfare officer clinic weekly. At last count, the community welfare officer service was operating in more than 1,000 centres throughout the country.

There is a growing awareness of the need to have community welfare officers involved in decision-making and in co-ordination in respect of: older people; people with disabilities; children, in terms of child care and children with disabilities; people with mental illness; carers; victims of domestic violence; people needing various family support services; drug abusers, including alcohol abusers; families of drugs users; the homeless; the Traveller community and asylum seekers.

Social services are provided by a number of agencies and this number is increasing all the time. The community welfare service is in touch with most families who have problems. Any of the mainstream services are provided at arm's length, or perhaps computer's length. While this may be financially efficient it is not always conducive to the promotion of welfare. The community welfare officer is in an ideal position to form the co-ordinating role in the delivery of services. The community welfare officers, as well as being an integral part of the health board services, should also be involved in co-ordinating and liaising with home-school liaison officers. My board has a project that involves liaising with community welfare officers and school liaison officers, the purpose of which is to determine whether financial reasons are responsible in cases where children are not attending school. Given the opportunity, we could expand this kind of interaction. The community welfare officers should also be involved in co-ordinating and liaising with education welfare officers, disability groups, those involved in older people's services, etc.

On information and advocacy, as society becomes more complex and the social welfare services respond to that complexity, the need for information and advisory services will increase. In particular, poor and vulnerable people find it hard to navigate the system and need more intensive help.

I hope members of the committee have received a flavour of where we have come from and where we wish to go. There is a tremendous feeling of frustration and uncertainty in terms of the community welfare officers and service because of the exclusion of the unions and practitioners from the various review processes to which I referred. Recently, the suggestion that we as a service would move to the Department of Social and Family Affairs appears to have gathered ground. This is a source of great concern to us. We feel the Department has no interest in the wider welfare role of the community welfare service. It is only interested in the income maintenance role and, indeed, administrative costs of the scheme. This militates against the development of the welfare role. The Department argues that since it pays the administrative costs of the service, it should have total control. We feel this would lead to a more prescriptive, rigid service and would not be in the best interests of the customers we serve. The buffer of the chief executive officers between the policy setting arm of the Department is a good control mechanism to ensure that it does not get too prescriptive. There is a case to be made to have the service fully within the remit of health and community care services. This would mean that the Department of Health and Children would set policy and administration would continue to be within the health boards, or what replaces them in the future. This would allow the service to be totally part of the community care service and would facilitate the wider welfare role which we envisage and which Mr. Cluskey envisaged for the service at its outset.

The health boards are effectively a form of local government and are in a better position to co-ordinate policies with local government and local development agencies than the Department of Social and Family Affairs. The overall strategic aims of the health service as enunciated in the health strategy - health gain, social gain and people-centred delivery of service - are clearly to the fore in the community welfare service and we look forward to an expansion of these in the future.

We greatly appreciate that a committee as important as this has taken time to listen to our concerns and we ask for its support in ensuring that we remain central to the delivery of health and welfare services locally, under the Department of Health and Children, in the best interests of all those that we have served and look forward to serving in the future.

We will open the discussion to members of the committee, and members of the delegation may respond as they feel appropriate.

I welcome the delegation. We did not exclude it and are delighted to have it present.

As a practising politician, I compliment the delegates and their members for the respectful way they have treated their customers. An important word in the submission was, "emergency", and it is in this respect that the delegates really play their part. I do not want the service to be separated from the Department of Health and Children and I want it to be enhanced. If there are to be any changes to it, I would like all groups concerned, including the Minister and the Department of Health and Children, to sit down and ensure we offer a better service to the people it already serves.

On many occasions in my political career, community welfare officer were called on in emergencies, whether on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday evening. Nobody else was available. There would not be much point in ringing the Department of Social and Family Affairs on a Saturday or Sunday and, some would say, there would not be much point ringing between Monday and Friday. I have tried this on many occasions and it can be difficult make contact.

The Community Welfare Service has done its job well and has done so in a very caring way. As I stated in the Dáil, no review can take place without including those involved with the review and those who are at the front line. During the last Question Time at which the Minister for Social and Family Affairs was present, she gave an undertaking that she would meet representatives of the service very soon. I hope she will listen when she meets them and that the Department has not taken a decision in advance.

The Minister tells us she provides the budget. It does not really matter who provides the money; I am worried about those who provide the service. I do want not to see the service taken away from the community and the social welfare officers taken out of their relevant areas. Although the Department of Social and Family Affairs does a good job in respect of its own business, it has adopted a hands-off approach on this matter and does not have a real understanding of how the service works on a day-to-day basis. An emergency occurs every day.

We should write to the Minister and request that she meet this group immediately to discuss the review that has taken place. She should take their wishes on board and note that no review can take place without meeting the people on the front line. During the past 18 months, the Government spent a fortune in its efforts to deliver a better local government and the taxpayer has had to foot the bill. This involves bringing the services to the people. Given that the State is bringing the same or better local government to the people and that community welfare officers work locally, it would be a retrograde step if the service was transferred to the Department of Social and Family Affairs. It cannot be allowed to happen. There must be an emergency service of officials operating at local level when support is needed. It cannot be provided by filling in a form and having to wait for five or six weeks to have it dealt with. Mr. Quilty and his colleagues have made decisions instantly and well. I have never heard of any scandal regarding community welfare officers. They have done an excellent job under difficult circumstances. I hope the service is not interfered with in any way.

As a politician, not a week goes by that I do not have to deal with a community welfare officer, superintendent or have to go to the appeals office and I have always found a degree of compassion. There may be rules, regulations and application forms to be filled in but an official cannot make a decision until he or she sees the applicant sitting in front of him or her. In 99.9% of cases, community welfare officers are aware of the circumstances. The Department of Social and Family Affairs should keep it hands off this service unless it has something better to offer but I do not see anything better.

I support the community welfare officers and I am disappointed the Minister has not met them before now. It is important that we spell this out to the Department. The existing service is working and should be left alone. I hope the Minister meets with the officers immediately.

Mr. Quilty

I thank the Deputy and we greatly appreciate his support. Flexibility has been the strength of supplementary welfare since its inception. It is locally delivered in a caring manner. While we do not profess to be perfect, we try hard. In recent years we have put greater focus on training and ensuring people are treated in a caring and compassionate way. We also try to ensure that there is no stigma associated with receiving SWA - it is part of a recipient's entitlements.

Our exclusion from the review irks us. We feel we should be in the front line. When we asked why we could not be members of the interdepartmental committee, we were told it was not the way things were done and that unions are not members of such committees. Whilst our colleagues in the SFA do a terrific job, they have a different ethos to ours. They can take some time to deliberate on facts and figures before coming to a decision. We are presented with certain circumstances on a daily basis and have to deal with them. Ours is the only service that I am aware of where a person can come to us and present a case and go home with a cheque in their pocket. It is crucial that such flexibility remains.

We would welcome a meeting with the Minister. We are grateful to the Deputies that have tabled questions on this matter in the House. While the Minister has stated in her replies in the House that no decision has been made, we are nonetheless worried about it.

I welcome the delegation and commend it on its presentation. As a politician, I am happy, and I believe my constituents are happy, with the service provided by community welfare officers. Whenever I contact the local officer and refer to a particular road, the officer generally knows the individuals I am inquiring about. This is important in trying to link up needs and provide the service and long may it continue. I am totally opposed to any change of a structure that would reduce the service to the people that need it.

The delegation has said that it wants to expand the service. This is down to a number of factors, including asylum seekers, rent subsidies and mortgage relief. It acknowledged that the Department of Social and Family Affairs provides the finance for the service. Is the delegation proposing that the funding of the service be taken from this Department and transferred to the Department of Health and Children?

The delegation referred to the huge increase in the number of applicants for rent subsidies and the problems arising from this. It seems to be telling us that all the operations on rent subsidies and mortgage relief should be redirected from the community welfare service to local authorities. Is this correct and how can it be justified? How would it become more efficient?

Many Members meet people who have been deprived of social welfare payments. The Department will often tell them that a decision to stop payments has been taken and the applicant should meet the community welfare officer. While the welfare officer can often help the applicant successfully reapply for the social welfare allowance, it cannot be paid until the Department establishes from the welfare officer what moneys have been paid in the interim period. This seems like duplication. Does the delegation have any suggestions of how this might be dealt with?

There have been allegations of abuse, particularly in the area of rent supplement. If a welfare officer is informed that a recipient is not meeting the requirements of a scheme, what rights does the officer have to interview that person? What procedures would an officer have to go through to interview a person in receipt of rent supplement?

Mr. Greg Price

A question was raised about funding. Funding comes from central funds and we administer the supplementary allowance scheme in the health boards on behalf of the Department of Social and Family Affairs. The Minister is not happy that she does not exercise more control over the way in which we spend the funds. While it is under her general direction and control, she does not have the final say and where the money is spent is at the discretion of the health board. We feel the money is well spent. I would be happy to see the Vote transferred to the Department of Health and Children as we operate under enabling legislation that allows the flexibility to which members have referred.

In our blueprint we stated that the health boards are not housing authorities. It is our belief that housing problems are problems best dealt with by local authorities or the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Approximately €250 million was spent on rent supplementation in 2002. While many people believe the health boards rent houses, this is not the case. Health boards do not rent houses; they supplement tenants that rent houses from landlords and landlords have been heavily criticised recently. The latest report of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government suggests local authorities should procure properties from private landlords and then rent them out as part of their stock.

People in receipt of rent subsidies have to pay a minimum contribution. This contribution is currently €12 if one is in receipt of a basic social welfare payment yet if one moves to a local authority house one will have to pay approximately €30. This means that people are reluctant to leave private rented accommodation where they are getting a better deal. If this was streamlined within local authorities they could rectify the matter.

Mr. Quilty mentioned that the report could be seen as allowing local authorities to cherry-pick the tenants they wanted and leave more difficult cases in the supplementary allowances sector. Single people are often not rated by local authorities. While such people may be put on a waiting list, it is only to give a better picture. We believe they should deal with everyone. If it is a housing problem it is a matter for the local authority and not supplementary welfare allowance. We want to get back to our welfare role. While this may necessitate a welfare officer advocating on behalf of a client, we should not be bogged down in dealing with and paying rent supplements which can be fairly tedious work. When we are bogged down, we do not have the opportunity to identify needs and tackle poverty.

Deputy Ryan referred to abuse of the rent supplement system and the powers of a community welfare officer to investigate such matters. If a community welfare officer is notified of potential abuses, he or she can investigate this and ask questions of the recipient. However, they cannot simply knock somebody off the scheme as natural justice demands that both sides must be heard. An officer must investigate the matter as far as is possible.

Can a recipient tell an investigating officer to return at a later time?

Mr. Price

There is not much we can do about this. We do not have great powers and we expect people to co-operate with us. Of course, we could use such an instance later in an investigation and ask why the recipient did not want to meet us. People sometimes have genuine reasons for not meeting us.

We agree with the point the Deputy raised about the denial of social welfare payments to individuals. Almost €200 million was paid out in basic payments by community welfare officers in 2002. Under a number of pilot projects people apply for unemployment assistance at their local employment office and the office tries to pay them within a week. The statistics from the social welfare appeals office is that 50% of appeals are allowed or the position of claimants is made better. This is quite high and shows that everything is not done correctly in the first instance.

It sends out a message.

Mr. Price

In one of her replies to parliamentary questions, the Minister said that more than €550 million is spent on supplementary welfare allowance. This is correct and the figure for 2002 was €561 million. If one subtracts the basic payments and rent supplementation, which come to almost €450 million, it leaves a core expenditure of only €110 million. If community welfare officers had time to sit down with someone they could offer a better quality service similar to that of the money advisers. However, there are only 50 money advisers countrywide whereas a community welfare officer will visit every village in the country at least once a week and has the ability to meet need in a flexible way immediately and a person can just walk in off the street without an appointment and be dealt with in a compassionate manner.

I compliment the community welfare officers. They know the people in need and should be in a better position than any other group to make a decision. Does good co-operation exist between social welfare officers and community welfare officers? It is important that there should be good co-operation.

Mr. Price mentioned that €200 million was paid out in basic payments. How much of this was refunded? Mr. Price said responsibility for rent supplement should rest with local authorities. I agree that local authorities would know who has applied for a house; who is bleeding the system and who is not. As with other Deputies, I have also found community welfare officers to be fair and caring.

Mr. Pat Lennon

There is close co-operation between social welfare officers and community welfare officers. While no formal link exists, informally such co-operation exists as we often deal with the same people. We work together effectively most of the time and we would be pleased to develop this area.

Mr. Joe McGloin

The other question referred to the refund of basic payments. Some of the expenditure of basic payments would be on people deemed to be inappropriate to mainstream social welfare payments. In such circumstances, the only income they would qualify for would be supplementary welfare allowances. In other cases, claimants may qualify for unemployment assistance or one parent family allowance and this money would be technically recoupable from one Department to another.

Is it always recoupable? Does money recouped at the appeals board go back to the community welfare fund? Are there ways and means to ensure this happens?

Mr. Price

The system has been computerised in recent years and a direct transfer is now made. Before this, the health board used to submit claims for refund each week to the Department of Social and Family Affairs. As it was done directly, we had a better track at that time. It is now a payment on account and while we do not currently have the figures, we are happy with the computer system where we have access to the full Department of Social and Family Affairs database and can use it to cross-check claims. There are few cases where people will receive double payments. Once an individual qualifies for unemployment assistance or similar payment, our payment will cease, the other one kicks in and the person is paid the balance of what they are owed.

I am not a member of this committee and I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to attend and participate in this meeting. As Deputy Ring has said, the issue of community welfare officers has been the subject of a recent parliamentary question that was answered orally. The Minister seems adamant that she will follow a certain course of action. However, it is encouraging to note that she is willing to meet with representatives of the officers. I hope it will work towards bringing about a different way of operating and does not just tell people what is going to happen regardless.

The delegation suggested local authorities should deal with rent subsidies and this is generally accepted as being true. It also points out the difficulties of cherry-picking on rent allowance and how local authorities may not play ball in terms of the housing needs of all people. One of the Minister's central arguments is that rent supplement accounts for 75% of all payments made by community welfare officers. If it is possible to have a 100% transfer in the short-term, does the delegation feel that the resources that would be freed might be put to alternative uses? I am aware that many community welfare officers are desk-bound and cannot investigate the circumstances in which people live. If such a change takes place, does the delegation feel the service will become broader and more proactive?

There is a significant cultural difference between the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the community welfare service. I see the community welfare service as taking a discretionary needs-based approach to poverty while the Department takes a concessionary, criteria-based approach. While both approaches are needed, it is important that they are kept separate as one acts as a check on the other. I would be interested to hear the comments of the delegation on the philosophical approach towards meeting needs.

Mr. Lennon

The Deputy has put his finger on the difference. We would wish to fulfil the role that was offered to us by Frank Cluskey in 1977 and see it as a way forward. With 70% of rental subsidies work going to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government - where we feel it should go - we would definitely get a greater opportunity to become more involved in the welfare role. The rent allowance scheme is more appropriate to income maintenance or the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Once an initial decision is made, it is paid through the computerised ISTS system. The level of work involved is more suitable to a Department rather than as it is currently constituted.

Mr. Quilty

It is our wish that the rental subsidies regime would be taken from us. The most recent report stated that certain rents would be transferred to the local authorities and others would stay with us. We felt that was lose - lose for us. The Department made it clear the loss of work meant loss of jobs. Therefore, we would end up with fewer community welfare officers and still the thin end of the wedge would be the amount of work we would have to do because of the nature of the people we would be left with. The difficulty for the local authorities is that they do not have a payment system to take over the payment structure; neither do they have the manpower. The flexibility we show on a day-to-day basis is not part of their culture. Deputy Boyle mentioned the difference in cultures and it is an important point.

We can see a further danger and a new and vicious element in the form of an interim rent. If all assessments were left to the local authorities and it was not being carried out on a proper basis, we would wind up paying people while the local authorities were making their decisions. That would bring us into another loop with a new form of interim payments. We already have interim social welfare payments.

As we have demonstrated in our blueprint, we have terrific ideas on the expansion of the service. I will briefly mention two such ideas that I am familiar with. We have school liaison officers working on a pilot project in my health board area. We have made interventions to ensure that if children are not attending school it is not for financial reasons. In west Limerick we have a project where a community welfare officer is responsible for dealing with the elderly in the area. While many officers are snowed under with work and rarely leave their desks, he has been able to go out and knock on doors, contact local GPs and clergy and every voluntary group that deals with elderly people. He meets with the groups and identifies the people that are in difficulty and deals with them on a one-to-one basis and takes each case from start to finish. Rather than seeing a person for five minutes in a clinic and offering a fire brigade service, he tries to prevent the fire starting. It is our wish to have this kind of involvement in other areas, such as long-term unemployed, the elderly, people with disabilities or people with addiction difficulties. There is no shortage of work if we are given the opportunity to do it.

Deputy Ryan touched on a mystery earlier and perhaps a member of the delegation will be able to explain it. To be given a supplementary rental allowance one must be on a local authority housing list yet the number of people receiving the allowance in the Southern Health Board region is greater than the number on the housing list. How do such discrepancies come about?

Mr. Quilty

While it is not an absolute necessity that they be on the housing list, it is generally the case, particularly for families. We realised some years ago that local authorities did not have the housing stock that would accommodate single people. We realised we were sending them on a fool's errand by making them register for local authority housing when we knew they had no chance of them getting it and we stopped doing this as we realised it was a waste of time.

That is one mystery solved.

I welcome the delegation and support the comments of my colleague, Deputy Ring. Fine Gael wants community welfare officers to remain in their current positions. We want this because of the flexibility and instant results officers can give. I think of one case where a womans husband died a few hours too early to enable her to claim a respite grant. While such things are tied to legislation, it was a case of extreme hardship and at least the community welfare officers could respond to it in a small way.

The non-allocation of housing to single people, especially for males, is a major problem. There are many broken marriages and there does not seem to be any accommodation available for males. The system makes it virtually impossible for the father to house his children for weekend visits and causes a great deal of family anxiety.

The delegation mentioned drugs and alcohol - issues we have to examine seriously as the mental health authorities seem to have washed their hands of them completely. I have had some dreadful cases recently, where people were told it was a matter for their GP. However, such people do not go near their GP. People need to search for such people and try to help them because it is such a serious illness. We are all aware of the issues in regard to drugs and there is a task force to deal with the problem. However, alcohol is the most serious issue with which this country must deal. I received no backup from the health service for the serious cases I dealt with recently. I welcome the comments of the delegation on the matter and acknowledge the need for a much greater involvement in this regard.

The trends in alcohol consumption in recent years will become a bigger issue since it will lead to broken homes and marriages. Someone must intervene at an earlier stage. At one stage, the churches could have had an involvement but that is no longer the case. I would appreciate further comment on this issue.

Mr. Quilty

I concur with Deputy Crawford. One of the things we try to teach our young community welfare officers before they begin work is to look beyond the obvious. Sometimes the first manifestation of difficulty in a household is financial. We teach them to look beyond the application for assistance with an ESB bill one month, the gas bill the following month and something else two weeks later, and try to examine the underlying problems. In many cases there is a substance abuse aspect. We want to get involved with such families because the repercussions of such difficulties in the families can be horrendous. People can find themselves in dreadful multi-debt situations.

Even if someone comes out the other end of rehabilitation, the problem does not end there because they need financial assistance to ensure they can return for after-care. Sometimes part of the package is that families need to visit while such people are in rehabilitation. If the rehabilitation is being upset because families cannot visit or is unsuccessful because of a lack of transport, for instance, we should fill that gap and we seek to do so. If people are prepared to go through the rehabilitative process, we want to ensure that they do not suffer through lack of finance.

Mr. McGloin

As Mr. Quilty described, the work of community welfare officers goes far beyond the payment function. I commend my own board of the Eastern Regional Health Authority in that it has a number of welfare officers who are specifically assigned to work in the addiction and drug services. They do not have any cheque-book so they link in with other welfare officers. We are keenly aware of that area. Although the payment function is part of our role, it is by no means the only thing we do.

We regard the wider welfare role which we have described as the core of what we want to do.

I am not used to being first. I know my lowly position and am quite happy with it.

The first shall be last.

I welcome our visitors, some of whom I have already met and will not identify in case it upsets their career prospects. This visit gives us an opportunity to acknowledge what has been done. I am sorry there is no one here from the south western area health board region.

Mr. Lennon

I am.

I am sorry; I thought I heard "east".

The Deputy should say what he was going to.

As a former chairman of that health board, I have always been acutely aware of the great work which is being done. I hope this does not come across as irreverent, but people often complain about CWOs and what they do in the same manner in which they complain about politicians. However, like us, CWOs are doing a good job and when people are in great difficulty, they acknowledge that. In my work in Tallaght, I have observed a great deal of contact between people and the service in the new office in the Square. It is important that we support this sensitive work. People who have to access such services are often vulnerable and in dire straits. There are difficulties and challenges in regard to the job because people make comparisons with the assistance which is being given to other categories of people. One must be careful about these matters because everyone must be treated fairly.

The discussion has focused on the question of responsibility for rent subsidies. In the local elections in 1999, I thought that nettle was being grasped and there seemed to be some movement in this regard. However, if that is the case, I have not heard much about it, which point is re-enforced by the delegation. Perhaps, it is time this committee challenged that. I was on the local authority from 1991, although I am not anymore, which I regret, and it is clear to me that there should be a one-stop-shop attitude to the issue. People approach the local authorities only to be sent elsewhere for other types of assistance which all comes from the same pot. As the delegation correctly pointed out, no one knows who is providing what and it has got to the point that, because of the challenges of the housing problem, more people are seeking assistance and joining waiting lists and more people are becoming homeless.

We should support this delegation. As a Fianna Fáil backbencher, I am not afraid to support what other party members such as Deputy Ring said. There is sometimes a myth about the role of Fianna Fáil backbenchers but we are just like everyone else - we bleed if our fingers are pricked, we listen to what our constituents say and we listen to what delegations say. I am not afraid to represent what I am hearing and it is important that we all do so, although sometimes we are not represented as doing so. However, that does not apply to my colleagues here. The system is great but can always be improved and action is required in regard to the challenges which we have heard about today.

I hope that, arising from what we have heard from the delegation today, the committee challenges what has been going on and accepts that the nettle has been lying around for four or five years and no one has grasped it. Perhaps the local authorities do not want to do so. I imagine they have a point of view, however, and they are not here to represent it. It might be no harm to invite local authorities to make a presentation to the committee on this issue. It is now time to examine the issues and grasp the nettle. I wish the delegation well.

The difficulty with the subject has been that the Ministers for Health and Children and Social and Family Affairs say that the current review is a fundamental appraisal of the scheme, aimed primarily at improving customer services and administrative efficiency. No one has a problem with that, including the delegation. Therefore, we are not a million miles from one another. The problem is that the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, in her own peculiar way, has refused to involve the delegation in the review. If the delegation was involved in the review, many of the difficulties to which they referred might be solved.

The delegation's document states that the Department of Social and Family Affairs has no interest in the wider welfare role of the community welfare service, and described it as a more prescriptive and rigid service. Will the witnesses expand on that because it appears to be the core of the difficulty? The delegates outlined a number of areas, but the paragraph on page eight is the key to today's discussion. The Minister stated that she wants to improve the service, with which no one has a problem. However, Deputy Boyle referred to cultural differences and that appears to be a problem between the Departments.

The blueprint document is excellent, particularly on empowering people to break out of the cycle of poverty. Unfortunately, however, it is not happening that I can see, although it may be in isolated incidents. That is where the debate needs to move. I understand that, given the changes that have been proposed, it is madness that the delegation is not involved. They outline the different reviews which have been carried out, such as the rent mortgages group, the SWA review group, 2000, the back-to-school review group and the needs assessment group, none of which have involved the community welfare officers. Is it any wonder there are difficulties between Departments, trade unions and, more important, the people working in those sections? The biggest problem seems to be that the Minister has made this difficulty for herself by not involving the welfare officers in her review. Does the delegation agree with that view?

As a person who is still involved in general practice, I can see many similarities between the welfare officers' problems and ours - they work efficiently but quietly. Perhaps if there were more cock-ups in their section, we might hear more about them. The welfare officers are heavily involved in community and social work, on which it is difficult to give an idea of how useful and valuable it is. They work at short demand on acute cases. However, the trouble is that control is a big issue for Departments. Control over what the welfare officers do and how they do it is important to line managers. As is the case in general practice and for politicians, it is difficult to give a perspective of the varying work each individual welfare officerdoes.

Unfortunately, demand for the service will increase dramatically, including alcohol, drug or financially related cases. However, the supply side - the people with whom the welfare officers liaise, including voluntary groups, GPs, public health nurses and social welfare officers - cannot provide the same level of service which it used to. Therefore, in some respects, the delegation needs to make a case for increasing the numbers of welfare officers and make themselves a separate group, since the amount of work which they will end up doing will increase dramatically. I hope the committee will support them to this end. I am not as au fait as other Deputies with the delegation’s work but I see a huge future in it.

Mr. Quilty

I greatly appreciate Deputy Twomey's comments. One of the problems with trying to expand - which is on our agenda - is that in recent years, everything has been on hold because of the reviews. The principle review began in 2000, and involved a series of meetings before stopping. Work on it only resumed a few weeks ago. We are constantly told that any changes to the service will have to be examined in the context of the review. Any recent requests for staffing are referred to a Government meeting of 6 December 2002, when a decision was made to cap the numbers. Therefore, the Department of Finance is not in a position to increase our numbers. Expansion is on our agenda but we are hamstrung by the reviews and their pace.

Deputy Twomey referred to the qualitative as distinct from quantitative nature of our work. We are bombarded constantly with figures from the Department of Social and Family Affairs which show that the number of payments plus expenditure equals "Y" - as if it is the only determining factor. They do not understand that a difficult case, such as multi-dimensional dysfunctional situation which is presented to a CWO, can take days to deal with. When CWOs come in for their first day's training, I tell them that if they want to know what they will be doing from Monday to Friday, they are in the wrong job. One can come in to work on Monday and set up a game plan, which may be scrapped by Monday afternoon because of a difficult situation, an eviction or a family in dire difficulty. There may also be a call from a local Deputy asking for help for a family. One can spend days at this work. However, the Department is not interested in qualitative measurements like these.

Deputy Twomey also mentioned the issue of control. We are charged with control because we spend public money. We take that control function seriously and we refuse people. However, no account is taken of that in measuring our workload.

Deputy Crowe referred to our non-involvement in the reviews. At the time, we welcomed the review, since we were trying to ensure we expanded our services or changed our focus or raison d’être. However, we grievously objected to the exclusion which, we were told, was because the Department did not do things that way. We invoked the spirit of partnership, Sustaining Progress and every agreement to no avail. Someone described it as being like our being allowed to be outside a window and speak into, but not be in, a room.

In regard to the prescriptive service and cultural differences, our experience is that our colleagues in the Department of Social and Family Affairs operate to a certain set of rules. That is fine and there is a place for it. If one is earning a certain amount, one qualifies, if one is earning another, one does not - it is black and white and straightforward. However, we do not operate like that. We have basic means tests for basic payments but the flexible side of our business is carried out on the basis of individual need as we find them. The Department appears to have a difficulty with this because it cannot control it. It cannot say what we will spend next year on exceptional needs payments. There is a fear that, if we get into the core role, and the expansion of the welfare role, it will lead to further increases in payments. The Department has concerns about us and wants to get us under its direct control in order that it can be more prescriptive.

We deal with people on the basis on need. This can be cross-functional since people come to us with educational, health or housing issues. We do not pigeonhole people; we deal with the package. The term "inappropriate use of exceptional needs payments" is sometimes quoted at us. However, we do not consider it inappropriate use; rather we are dealing with the problem. There are those who say particular payments should not have been made because they are the responsibility of the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Education and Science or Health and Children. However, we are presented with a person at the other side of the hatch and there is no point sending that person for a service which is not there, so we deal with him or her. Some people have difficulty with that.

Mr. Price

Deputy Twomey spoke about increase in demand for services. During the Celtic tiger years, when unemployment was falling, the Department of Social and Family Affairs found it difficult to accept that expenditure on supplementary welfare allowances was still increasing. We believe this was because people had not been accessing the service and when waiting room numbers began to drop, it was availed of by people who had not come to us before. In this way, community welfare officers got an opportunity to deal with people who were in dire need. It would be preferable if we could get away from the income maintenance element and allow the Department of Social and Family Affairs deal with it, as it does well, and allow us to get on with the wider welfare role.

A recent Combat Poverty Agency report revealed that 75,000 children are still living in consistent poverty. That figure does not refer to those living in relative poverty. Our job is to identify the needs in such cases and to start meeting them in an appropriate manner, which does not always involve cash.

Mr. McGloin

The opening line of the primary legislation provides for the State "to alleviate social distress and prevent its recurrence as far as is practicable". Members referred to the fact that this is not happening to the extent it could be if the service was not hamstrung by our making rent supplement payments and basic interim payments. We acknowledge that the Department of Social and Family Affairs has no interest in the wider welfare role because it told us so.

We have quarterly meeting with officials in the Department, at which they tell us little. However, they have told us that if we are involved in the wider welfare role, all they are interested in is what we do for them - the payments we make of their behalf - and they are seeking to have more control in that regard. They are not interested in our expanding the service. It is interesting that, over the past ten years, the Department has lost the terms "community" and "welfare" from its title. We do not want to lose either term from our title because we see our focus as on community and welfare.

Mr. Tony Walsh

I will not try to compete with the quality of the contributions made by my colleagues. As a trade union official, it is a rare occasion that one can sit in the slipstream and have the advantage of people who have such a professional grasp of their role.

Sustaining Progress is underpinned by the concept of participation. The Department of Health and Children's approach to change is equally underpinned by that concept. We are not about participating in the end conclusion. The review process must and should be part of a participative process. It has to be collaborative or it will have no currency. The conclusion of today's discussions is that we must be in on the review process with a full participatory role.

I thank the delegation for taking the time to discuss this important issue with the committee. The discussion has made a wide-ranging and useful contribution to the thinking of members on the matter. I compliment the delegation on their sympathetic, compassionate and flexible response to the many people whom I and my colleagues represent on a daily basis and meet with in emergencies. Even after hours, we have often found a community welfare officer to respond to such crises. They deal with a plethora of circumstances because of their intimate, on-the-job capacity to extract details and retain an historical sense of dealing with people.

The schemes which best benefit the country and always find favour with the Committee of Public Accounts are local improvement schemes, housing aid for the elderly and the delegates' own operational scheme. The common thread through those schemes is that discretion is vested in all of them. Therefore, the officials always come up well on a cost-benefit analysis since the benefits always far outweigh the costs in terms of qualitative work. It is about time that people in higher places listened to this argument. It is rational and has been proven and, where something is not broken, we should not try to fix it but rather improve it.

I am taken by the expansion of the level of service and the flexibility which is required. The only time we ever hear a negative about community welfare officers, no more than ourselves, is when they have to implement particular schemes. It was the Department which bound up the back-to-school clothing and footwear allowance in an intricate and complex set of regulations and hidebound the discretion which was heretofore vested in the CWOs. Complaints in this regard are therefore not of the CWOs' own making.

The delegation has contributed to the committee in a balanced and rational manner and has made an irresistible case. I hope we will be in a position to advance the points and arguments it has made with the Minister for Social and Family Affairs through communications with her at a later date.

Mr. Quilty

I thank the chairman and members for their warm welcome and constructive comments and support. They have no idea of the sense of frustration we have endured in recent years. The sense of relief we experienced when we heard this committee was prepared to listen to us was palpable and has renewed our enthusiasm because sometimes we get fed up with it. That the committee has chosen to listen to us has re-charged our batteries. The Chairman referred to the flexibility and discretion of our service and its local delivery and knowledge. We are culturally different from the DSFA on a day-to-day basis and we wish to remain that way.

I propose that we write to the Minister asking her to meet this group immediately to discuss its concerns because we cannot have a review without involving the people who are being reviewed.

I second the proposal.

Is that agreed. Agreed. I thank my committee colleagues for their full participation in this matter.

The joint committee went into private sessionat 3.30 p.m. and resumed in public session at4.10 p.m.

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