JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 16 Nov 2004

Rent Supplement Scheme: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome Ms Yvonne Fleming, co-ordinator, and Mr. Bryan Gavin, Ms Nora Kirrane and Ms Ciara McGrath, information-outreach officers, from Centrecare who are here today to make a presentation to the committee on the rent supplement scheme.

Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an officer, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members who wish to make a declaration in regard to any matter being discussed may do so now or at the beginning of their contributions. Members are also reminded that if there is any possibility of a conflict of interest arising, they should make a declaration of interests either now or at the start of their contributions.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. While it is generally accepted that witnesses would have qualified privilege, the committee is not in a position to guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it.

Mr. Bryan Gavin

Since January this year new rent supplement eligibility rules have been in place. One will only qualify for rent supplement if one has a six month rental history, unless one has been assessed as homeless or having a housing need or is in receipt of one of the qualifying payments for an exemption. Similarly, a person whose spouse is working over 30 hours a week is no longer eligible, nor is a person who refuses two offers of local authority housing within a continuous 12 month period.

The report was commissioned in response to the changes in the eligibility rules for rent supplement in the previous budget. The purpose of the study was to identify issues arising in the first six months since the changes were made. Above all, the study shows the human impact of the changes and that there is a story behind every refusal.

On 2 December the Minister for Social and Family Affairs answered a parliamentary question by saying "the purpose of the supplementary welfare allowance is to deal with emergencies and short-term needs that arise when a person has a change in circumstances, for example when a tenant becomes unemployed and can no longer afford their rent". However, in practice, this is not the case. A case highlighted in our study proves this.

A young man became ill, lost his job as a result and began receiving disability benefit. While he was sick, friends cared for him. He has now fully recovered and wishes to move into a private rented house and get a job. However, he has been refused rent supplement as he has no history of renting. This man cannot understand the reason he has been refused as he had a history of work and paid taxes for seven years and only wishes to receive assistance with his rent payments until such time as he gets back on his feet. The irony is that if he was in receipt of disability allowance, he would be exempt from the rules.

One should look at the changes from the point of view of someone who is working and earning a decent wage and who loses his or her job after renting for four months. Under the six month rule, someone will lose his or her home as well as his or her job. Nobody has savings in reserve to pay the high rents charged, particularly in Dublin. Many must uproot themselves and move in with family or friends until their circumstances improve. The requirement for a six month rental history is proving to have adverse affects in many situations, including on people who are homeless, particularly those in situations of hidden homelessness or who may be at risk of homelessness.

Many people are living with parents, siblings or friends where they are unwanted but cannot satisfy the six month renting rule and more than likely will not be assessed as having a housing need by a local authority. A young pregnant woman plans to leave home after she has her baby. Problems have developed with her parents and she wants a stress free environment for the child. However, obtaining her own place is impossible as she cannot get rent supplement without a six month rental history. Must she make herself homeless before she can improve her situation?

The study highlights the difficult situations people get into when they find themselves having to deal with an unexpected crisis in their lives. One woman, wishing to leave her husband because their relationship had badly deteriorated, wanted to get rent supplement until such time as she got her life back on track. She was refused until such time as she underwent a housing needs assessment. It is very unlikely that she will be assessed as having a housing need unless the person carrying out the assessment is aware of her domestic circumstances. This is often not the case. The woman concerned will also have to remain in the family home until such time as the assessment is carried out, which can take a number of weeks, if not months. She fears she will not be able to stay that long.

Similarly, a young man discovered that his wife was having an affair and left the family home. He had nowhere to stay and resorted to sleeping in his car. Again, he was told he would have to have a housing needs assessment carried out before he would be able to receive rent supplement. Therefore, he has no choice but to continue sleeping in his car. These are some of the most severe cases information centres were faced with. What alternatives do the people concerned have?

The changes may be working in reducing the cost and the numbers in receipt of rent supplement but it is not working for people in crisis. As information and advice organisations, it is our responsibility to tell policymakers about the impact of policy changes. The basic premise of a social welfare system is that it acts as a safety net for people in crisis and living in poverty. In its current restricted form, rent supplement is not acting as a safety net for everyone who needs it. In the cases outlined we ask what alternatives do the people concerned have?

In the short term we are calling for the rent supplement rules to go back to what they were before January 2004 and community welfare officers to be given back their discretionary powers. This system was not ideal but it caused fewer crises. For the relatively small amount the changes are saving, compared to other wasted expenses, there is a huge human cost involved. We appeal to the committee to do its best to have them reversed until an alternative has been put in place.

Ms Yvonne Fleming

My colleague, Mr. Gavin, has outlined a number of cases. We would welcome questions from members before we summarise at the end of the meeting, if that is appropriate.

Deputy Connolly

I thank Mr. Gavin for an excellent presentation which gives a real life description of what is actually happening. The sample cases show where the changes have caused most pain. I refer, in particular, to the six month rental history requirement. This six month gap of homelessness creates considerable difficulty. I am sure there are many such cases.

Has Centrecare discovered a difficulty with cases where a spouse is working more than 30 hours per week? A person participating in a FÁS scheme is working purely for the pride of saying he or she is involved in the workforce, often for less than the national minimum wage. One could not describe such a person as being in well paid employment. This rule gives people yet another disincentive to work, to add to the medical card guidelines and several others. Mr. Gavin has enumerated the issues relating to work.

Can the representatives of Centrecare provide more examples of emergencies and short-term needs? The system should be able to respond to emergencies and changes in circumstances rather than requiring a waiting period.

Mr. Gavin has come up with a new phrase, "the hidden homeless". Who does he regard as the hidden homeless? We all have the impression that the homeless are those living on the streets or who do not have accommodation. The example of the woman who wants to leave her husband is a good one. That is an emergency and we need to be able to deal with it promptly.

The basic premise of the social welfare system is that it acts as a safety net for people in crisis and living in poverty. It is not doing this. I compliment Centrecare on its submission.

Deputy Callanan

I welcome the presentation. Occasionally we hear long rigmaroles from delegations but Mr. Gavin's presentation went straight to the point. Have there been many cases of people being refused rent supplement and when supplementary social welfare payments were not provided?

I agree that a person who refuses two offers of local authority housing in a 12 month period should not be entitled to rent supplement. Anyone who refuses two offers of a house cannot be too interested in being housed. I would not have a great deal of sympathy for someone in that position. However, I do have sympathy for those obliged to wait six months for rent supplement. How big an issue is this?

Deputy Stanton

I welcome the representatives of Centrecare. I compliment them on their work for the organisation, of which I am aware, and thank them for the presentation. Does Centrecare's research show that much has been saved by this measure? Will the representatives also comment on the lack of flexibility in the discretion exercised by community welfare officers? What is the position in practice?

Are there any statistics which indicate the ages of those who are homeless? Rent supplement was a targeted emergency measure to prevent homelessness. One of the most basic needs is a roof over one's head, somewhere where one can sleep safely. Will the representatives also provide the committee with information on the provision of shelters for homeless persons in Dublin? What are the numbers involved? Perhaps the representatives can paint a pen picture of a homeless person and the options open to him or her. Where does he or she go and what difficulties does he or she encounter? What is the age profile?

It has been brought to my attention that if a girl becomes pregnant, it might lead to a dispute in the home and she might be told to leave. I would like to hear the representatives' views on this matter. Have they come across such cases? From their experience, can they say what issues arise in such circumstances? I have also heard of cases where people return to Ireland from abroad, having given up a local authority house in England. They can encounter difficulties in finding accommodation on their return. In some cases they may be told there is no place for them here. This is also the case with persons who may come to Dublin from other parts of the country for various reasons.

I have noticed in recent months that the number sleeping rough in the city seems to have increased. Is that the case? I commend the work many voluntary organisations are doing to help the homeless. I also realise that some people do not want to go into hostels for various reasons. Perhaps the representatives can tell us what is happening in that regard and how we can assist.

Mr. Gavin

The hidden homeless are those not accessing the mainstream homeless services and who would not be categorised as homeless, either by the homeless persons units in the city or local authorities. They are staying between friends, going from sofa to sofa. They are increasingly difficult to categorise as homeless because of their refusal to access homeless hostels and other such accommodation.

For someone to be classified as homeless he or she must be categorised as such by the local authorities. Obviously, if somebody is not staying in a hostel, bed and breakfast accommodation or any other form of emergency accommodation, he or she cannot be categorised as homeless. That is where the term "hidden homeless" comes from. The people concerned are moving from person to person and sleeping on a couch wherever they can.

Deputy Connolly

Does Mr. Gavin have any idea of the numbers of hidden homeless? Why are they not accessing emergency accommodation? Is it because it is not up to scratch or because they do not want the responsibility of running their own house?

Ms Ciara McGrath

We receive telephone calls from such persons. This week I received a telephone call from a young woman with two young children who had lost her private rented accommodation. The only option available to her to qualify for rent allowance was to present herself as homeless. This means taking her children to the homeless services and being assessed by a community welfare officer. She might possibly be offered a place in a hostel with her two young children. For those with no experience of the homeless services, it can be extremely worrying. That is just one example.

Another example with which we often deal is that of a young person who has overcome drug use and been through a detox programme. He or she has met all the criteria and done everything he or she can to stay off drugs. He or she may have fallen out with his or her family and been put out of the house because of drug use. As he or she cannot go back, when he or she comes out of the detox shelter, he or she has nowhere to go. In order to qualify for rent allowance he or she needs to present himself or herself as being homeless and move into a homeless hostel where he or she may be subjected to peer pressure that could lead him or her back into drug or alcohol abuse. That is a major reason cited for refusing to go to the homeless services.

Ms Fleming

Will we work down through the questions?

Chairman

Yes.

Ms Fleming

Deputy Connolly's question concerned the amount saved. The predicted saving was €11 million but we have not been able to get any figures on the actual amount saved. It is the Government's job to compile the figures but they have not been released. The 16 cuts made last year were to save €58 million overall. With the overturn of the decision on widow's and widower's payments, there was an expected saving of approximately €50 million. On rent supplement, there was an expected saving of €11 million but we are not in a position to calculate what the actual saving is.

Mr. Gavin

The projected figures for those who had received rent supplement were easier to obtain. Some 27,000 have received rent supplement since the cut was made but there have not been any concrete figures for the numbers refused, or the amounts saved.

As regards the role of community welfare officers in the supplementary welfare changes, in the past they were allowed to address all cases on their merits. They could use their discretion when granting rent supplement. That is still the position to a certain degree. Unfortunately, they have been instructed — as far as I am aware, by the Minister — to keep use of their discretion to a minimum.

Deputy Connolly

Will the delegation expand on the reduction of the discretion of community welfare officers? It strikes me that if someone has discretion, it is not limited. By how much has it been chopped back?

Mr. Gavin

That is something for which figures are required but we do not have access to them. We do not have the figure for the number of refusals which would be included in that equation. A circular was issued to community welfare officers stating use of their discretion should be kept to a minimum. I am not sure what the idea behind this was, or how many refusals there should be.

Deputy Connolly

It strikes me people have been told to read the rules and forget about using their discretion.

Deputy S. Ryan

I compliment the Centrecare delegation's members on their work. For my benefit, will they outline the work in which they are involved? My colleagues are more aware of Centrecare's work but in what areas and with what clients is it dealing?

I wish to discuss the six month requirement. I know people have had to go to moneylenders to try to get money, which is scandalous. I hope this will be rectified.

Originally the criteria for assessing housing need by a local authority were not provided for in the scheme. Under a lot of pressure this measure was introduced. As a result, many of the problems experienced in my constituency in that regard have been dealt with. What problems do the people coming to Centrecare have? I presume most are low-income earners or social welfare recipients. What difficulties do they have in asking a local authority to put them on the housing list? Is a problem cropping up with the local authorities? Are people experiencing delays that discourage them from having themselves assessed? I understand that even a person in suitable accommodation in the private rental sector may be considered as being in need of housing.

The Minister has made certain commitments to review the scheme. Other than the requirement to be renting for six months, is there any other major issue impacting on the operation of the scheme?

Senator Feeney

I also welcome the representatives and thank them for their presentation.

One can have a certain amount of sympathy for the areas and people highlighted in Centrecare's study which mentions a young pregnant woman who wants to leave home, a young man who has discovered his wife is having an affair, and a woman whose relationship with her husband has gone belly-up and she wants to get out. When reading this, I must assume that they are all working.

I have four children. We must recognise that pregnancy is not an illness. While a pregnant woman is in a time confinement, she can work. Her job should be guaranteed and she can go back to it after having her baby. She is being paid while on maternity leave. I would have thought rent supplement came into play in emergency cases. I would not consider such examples to be emergencies, unless the people concerned are unemployed or have no money. However, as this was not clear from the presentation, I take it the young man whose wife is cheating on him is employed, as is the young pregnant woman. It might be different in the case of the husband and wife as she might be a stay-at-home wife.

If the representatives can get it for us, I would like to see the letter issued to community welfare officers. Last week the Minister told me directly that the community welfare officer still had at his or her discretion the ability to intervene in cases of emergency. Given what Mr. Gavin said, I take it those officers are no longer inclined to intervene. If that is what is happening, there has been a breakdown and somebody is not being open with us.

I would like to know the answers to the questions asked, especially those asked by Deputy Callanan as to how many have been refused. We need to know the figures before we start knocking. When will Centrecare have the answers?

Senator Terry

I also thank Centrecare for presenting its report which makes interesting reading. While the representatives have just given examples of the people in difficulty resulting from the changes in the rent supplement scheme last year, I realise that there are many other cases, each of which is deserving. As public representatives, we can all identify people who have suffered as a result of the changes. I am thinking particularly of families living in overcrowded conditions. I know of many households with three families within the larger family. For them the changes have certainly had a serious effect.

The requirement to have been living in rented accommodation for six months is amazing. If somebody has been in a position to pay rent for six months, how can he or she prove his or her ineligibility to pay rent for the following six months and onwards? This seems to be a huge contradiction in terms. While, on the one hand, the Minister requires this history, how is one supposed to provide this history without the means to do so? However, if one has means, one should not really be entitled to rent supplement. It was an unfair cut, which I hope will be addressed in the forthcoming budget.

Women suffering domestic violence need to be able to get out quickly. They can end up homeless and in a hostel which is a most unpleasant experience. They may have to take their children and leave their own area. Those from the suburbs of Dublin may have to come to the city centre to live in a hostel and then travel out again to bring their children to school. Allowing them to apply for rent supplement would certainly make life easier for them. Every barrier has been put in their way to prevent them from improving their lot.

The main source of the problem is the inability to deliver adequate social housing. How much is the Government spending annually on rent supplement? I would prefer if it did not take this measure to save €11 million per year on rent supplement. How many houses could this amount build? We never seem to be able to catch up.

Mr. Gavin mentioned that 27,000 were in receipt of rent supplement. I am not clear whether they are new recipients this year or whether that is the number in receipt of rent supplement generally. How many successfully applied for rent supplement last year? How many applied this year? How many were granted rent supplement and how many were refused? Has this cutback had an impact on non-national immigrants?

Ms Nora Kirrane

We work with the most vulnerable in society, many of whom have grown up in families with no experience of anyone in the family having been employed. A pregnant woman who has grown up in a family home with several generations and little history of employment needs the opportunity to leave and find her own space. One of the cases we dealt with was that of a working man who had separated from his wife and found himself homeless. He was not eligible for rent allowance, although he would have been if he had been in receipt of disability allowance. Those who are working are also sometimes disadvantaged.

We do not have exact figures for the numbers refused rent allowance — I assume community welfare officers would have such figures — but there were 91 cases mentioned in our study, the majority of whom had been refused rent allowance.

People who have refused local authority housing twice have been mentioned. We dealt with a case recently where a woman had been offered accommodation in a difficult area where she would have been alone with her child. She had refused this place and had been offered another around the corner with exactly the same problems. She felt she could not bring her child up in the area and asked the local authority if she would become homeless if she refused. It did not have accurate information. It told her she would not but the information was wrong and she is now homeless. Sometimes information does not filter down. Therefore, people are unaware of their entitlements.

Ms McGrath

A question was asked about the role of the local authority. To be eligible for rent allowance, a person must be either registered as homeless with the local authority or assessed as having a housing need. This is where problems arise. No extra resources have been given to local authorities to establish a unit to assess housing need. Previously a person could have sought private rented accommodation, had the supplementary welfare or rent allowance form stamped. The landlord signed the form that the rent was under a certain amount. The form was then brought to the community welfare officer who looked at it, listened to the story and made an assessment. Now a person must be registered as homeless or having a housing need but the assessments do not happen overnight, they take a long time and often there are forms to be filled in. People with literacy problems are put off by having to fill in these forms and meet the criteria. They end up moving between friends and family and are not having their housing needs assessed.

Prior to the introduction of the new criteria, a person could have stayed in hostels or access homeless accommodation and an informal network of community welfare officers would have verified him or her as homeless. It could have been done over the telephone but now he or she must register as homeless with the local authority. Previously people accessing hostel accommodation in the city centre could have registered with Dublin City Council as homeless but the council has now stated it will not take the people concerned. They must go back to their own local authority and register as homeless with it. There is, however, no uniformity across the local authorities in dealing with the people concerned. Therefore, we might give a person information on registering with Dublin City Council and he or she might then have to go through an entirely different process, often with officials who are unsure of the process.

Deputy S. Ryan

What scheme is place? Is it the case that officials in any of the local authorities are not supportive in helping people to fill in application forms? Is there an undue waiting list for a person with an application form who wants to be assessed for rent supplement? If so, the local authorities should be taken to task. I will bring this to the attention of the Minister in the Dáil because it is a scandal.

Ms McGrath

For a person to register as homeless with Dublin City Council, after accessing homeless accommodation, he or she can go in with his or her rent receipts for his or her hostel and perhaps with his or her community welfare officer's name and number. He or she will be registered as homeless if he or she becomes homeless in Dublin City Council's area. However, if he or she goes to Fingal County Council, he or she will have to fill in the housing needs assessment form. Dublin City Council states homeless people do not fill in this form, that they are given immediate priority for housing because they are homeless. Homeless young men who go to Fingal County Council are expected to fill in the form and have it stamped by the local authority. People go to the relevant offices, are handed forms, get confused and leave. Often people with poor literacy skills are put off by this. There is a discrepancy.

Senator Feeney

That is a breakdown in communication, it is not explained well enough to them. The local authority is doing its job in asking them to fill in the forms. Could another agency be asked to explain the process and tell them it would be worth it because in two or three months time, they would be dealt with?

Mr. Gavin

That would be the case if they came to us first but in many cases they do not. If they go to the local authority, this is what faces them. They then come back to us but there is no point in us telling them something they already know having gone through it themselves in the local authority. It would be great if people did come to us first as we would be able to inform them and they would be prepared but unfortunately that is not the case.

Senator Feeney

When I meet people who have problems, they can buy and sell me — they know so much about different schemes that they educate me. However, a small number do not understand. Sometimes they are the ones most in need.

Ms Fleming

As Centrecare is a drop-in information centre, we can only talk to those who approach us. Many come in absolute crisis. We are not talking about people who can negotiate social welfare allowances on their own but about people in severe need who are confused and need our support. This is only the tip of the iceberg because there is a whole set of people who will never approach organisations like Centrecare.

Senator Terry asked the rationale behind making people pay rent for six months and then offering them rent supplement. When the policy was changed in January, rent supplement was paid as an income support if a person had been in rented accommodation for six months or more and had a temporary shortfall. If a person had been working and renting and had lost his or her job, there would have been a temporary shortfall and rent supplement was offered as an income support. There was also rent supplement as housing support for those assessed by the local authority as having a housing need or being homeless.

The matter can be explained in a way that makes sense but our study shows this does not pan out in practice. To start with we refer to those who encounter difficulty in getting rent supplement. What about a person living in a rural area where there are no employment opportunities who decides to move to a city to find work and seek rent supplement for a short period until he or she gets on his or her feet? That is no longer an option. How does a person living in an overcrowded house where he or she is no longer wanted get rent supplement? Our study concerns people who wanted to get rent supplement for the first time in order that they would have an opportunity to deal with what was a bad situation. This opportunity has now been completely removed, unless someone is assessed as having a housing need or being homeless which is not as simple as it may sound.

Mr. Gavin

As regards the amount spent on rent supplement, the most up-to-date figures we have are for 2002. The figure is over €250 million in respect of approximately 60,000 recipients to date. We would also like to have the figures for the numbers of refusals but unfortunately we do not have them.

Deputy S. Ryan

Is that on an annual basis?

Mr. Gavin

Correct.

Deputy Stanton

It often appears people in need of emergency accommodation because of their domestic circumstances are not aware of what is available or accustomed to or au fait with the system as outlined. They often find themselves homeless as a result. It is indicated in the Centrecare presentation that in the short term it would be preferable if we returned to where we were pre-2004 in order that community welfare officers would retain their discretionary powers. Do the representatives have any suggestions to make as to what might happen in the longer term? Are they aware of models used elsewhere that they would like to see in operation here? I take it their argument is that the rent supplement scheme as operated prior to 2004 was not ideal. Is there a model they would like to see in operation?

My colleague and I mentioned immigrants. Perhaps the representatives might comment on the position of prisoners who often leave prison on a Friday evening and find there is no community welfare officer available. What is the position in this regard? Are they classified as homeless and what do they do if they have no family home to go to?

Ms Fleming

On the issue of prisoners, the circular detailing the cutbacks outlined that time spent in an institution such as a hostel, mental hospital or prison was to be counted towards the figure of six months. Therefore, an allowance was made in that regard. However, there is a case included in the study of a man being refused rent supplement on coming out of prison. We are trying to highlight the discrepancies in the application of the new eligibility rules. While it was stated in the circular that an exception would be made, in this case the person concerned had to go live with his parents, in a house where he was not wanted, because he did not get rent supplement.

On models for the future, we greatly support the idea of an overhaul of the whole system which would involve a number of Departments in what we call "joined up thinking". The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is acting separately from the Department of Social and Family Affairs operating separately.

When we ask for a reversal of the cutbacks, we do not argue the scheme in place was ideal. Rent supplement does not give secure tenure; it remains temporary and insecure. We are looking for a commitment to overhaul the system, in respect of which the State would perhaps consult with people like us who work at the coalface in the voluntary sector in order to inform itself as to what would be a useful model. We greatly welcome the changes to be made for those in receipt of rent supplement for 18 months or more as a good move for the future. However, more time and thought need to be given to this initiative.

There was also a question about immigrants. Perhaps Ms McGrath will answer it.

Ms McGrath

Immigrants from another European county, including the new accession states, are not entitled to receive any supplementary welfare or social welfare payment before they have been in the country for two years. With regard to asylum seekers, their time spent in housing directly provided counts towards the figure of six months.

Mr. Gavin

A point was made about returning emigrants also. There have been cases where people have encountered difficulties. To be honest, this is a grey area. People who have been away for quite some time have been told there will not be a problem under the habitual residence test. However, if a person is in a better position in the United Kingdom, for instance, there may be a difficulty in him or her coming here and presenting as homeless. In such cases his or her position is made worse by moving back to Ireland. In certain cases such persons have not been categorised as homeless because they have put themselves in that position. We have not dealt with many cases of this type but this could be due to the timescale in which the study was carried out. Further examples may arise.

Deputy S. Ryan

The report and presentation are timely because there will be a debate. As a member of the Opposition and spokesman for the Labour Party, the representatives may rest assured that we will be raising the issue of rent supplement again. We will be using many of the cases presented today as real life examples of what the representatives meet on a daily basis. On a personal note, I compliment Centrecare on its presentation.

Ms Fleming

The Estimates are to be published on Thursday. We have pushing been hard to have this cutback overturned since it was made. We knew it would cause havoc in the sector in which we work. We are the ones at the coalface who must deal with the resulting crises. We would greatly appreciate if members of the committee made whatever efforts they can in this regard. We are due to meet the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Brennan, tomorrow. Given that the economy is in a healthy position and that such large amounts are being spent on other measures which might not be particularly useful, we would appreciate the committee's help in having this cutback overturned.

Chairman

We have had a valuable meeting. I thank Ms Fleming, Mr. Gavin, Ms Kirrane and Ms McGrath for their information which will be taken on board. I also thank members for their contributions.

Deputy Stanton

I would like to be associated with the Chairman's remarks. It is ironic that the cost of the 16 cutbacks, €50 million, equates exactly with the amount spent on the electronic voting system, which debacle had to be paid for using some angle. Unfortunately, this was the one chosen by the Government.

Ms Fleming

That was a comment we were going to make at the end. It is significant that it is the most vulnerable who are at the butt of the cutbacks. It is our responsibility in the voluntary sector to bring the issues of concern to them to the notice of the Oireachtas. We would appreciate the help of members in achieving a reversal of the cutbacks.

Deputy Callanan

We will bring the concerns raised by Ms Fleming to the attention of the Minister also.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.50 p.m. and adjourned at 4 p.m. sine die.