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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Jul 2005

Family Support Agency: Presentation.

Today we will hear a presentation by a delegation from the Family Support Agency. Unfortunately, the Chairman of the joint committee cannot be with us today so I am taking his place. On behalf of the joint committee I am very pleased to welcome Mr. Michael O'Kennedy, chairman of the Family Support Agency, who is no stranger to these Houses. He is accompanied by Mr. Pat Bennett, chief executive, Ms Muriel Walls, legal expert, and Mr. Bill O'Dea, head of corporate services, who are here to make a presentation on the work of the Family Support Agency.

Members have received copies of the agency's written submission circulated by the clerk to the joint committee last Thursday. I must, however, say the customary few words prior to commencement of presentations.

Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members who wish to make a declaration in respect of any matter being discussed may do so now or at the beginning of their contributions. Members are also reminded that if there is any possibility of there being a conflict of interests they should make a declaration of interest either now or at the start of their contributions.

I am confident that it is not necessary to read the following but I am sure Mr. Michael O'Kennedy will approve of my reading it into the record. I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. While it is generally accepted that witnesses have qualified privilege, the committee is not in a position to guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it.

Before the commencement of the presentation I wish to inform the witnesses, as I have already informed members, that this committee will observe two minutes' silence at noon as a mark of support for, and solidarity with, the victims of the London bombings. I invite Mr. Michael O'Kennedy to commence the presentation.

Mr. Michael O’Kennedy

I thank the Chairman. On a personal note, it is good to be back. As chairman of the Family Support Agency, I appreciate that it is a great privilege for us to appear before the committee again. This is our second opportunity to speak to an Oireachtas committee. On the last occasion we had the opportunity to elaborate on our views of the constitutional committee, of which members of the Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs will be aware. That was in April of this year. I am just going to say a few brief introductory words and then I am sure members will want to put questions in some detail to my colleagues.

Mr. Pat Bennett is the chief executive officer. Mr. Bill O'Dea is the head of corporate services and Ms Muriel Walls is a legal expert, particularly as regards family law. The agency was established on 6 May 2003. There are nine working groups under the aegis of the agency and we will furnish the committee with further details on that if it wishes. There are 52 staff, 42 of whom are involved in the mediation services and ten are working in administration at departmental level.

In terms of a breakdown of the agency's funding, some 80% goes to the voluntary and community organisations throughout the country, concerning which further details will be given in the course of the presentation. Some 12% goes to the family mediation service and 8% is for administration. The latter figure is at the lower end, if not the lowest, in terms of administrative costs for any State agency. This is a matter of concern to this committee, as with all committees of the Oireachtas. Again, we can supply further details on this issue, if necessary.

I will mention just a few other matters. There are 12 members of the board, as outlined on page 9 of our submission. Each of these has special qualifications, with the possible exception of the chairman. However, the role of public representative over 38 years should provide one with some experience in that area, with perhaps a little on the legal side as well. The committee can see that there is a wide-ranging representation of people with specialist qualifications and, of course, the Department is also represented, with two members. In terms of our working arrangements, the agency has monthly meetings. The working groups I have referred to also meet at least once a month. The times may vary, according to particular needs. As I am conscious of the constraints on the committee's time, I have decided to give this brief outline without going into further details.

The main services provided by the agency are detailed in the submission, but I will briefly indicate what these are. We have a responsibility to support, promote and develop family and community services and resource centres throughout the country. There are a considerable number and they account for 80% of our budget. The agency supports, promotes and develops the provision of marriage, relationship, child and bereavement counselling services, as well as other family supports. It provides a countrywide family mediation service, assisting persons involved in the process of separation or divorce to reach agreement, where possible, especially in disputes involving children.

Until the early 1950s, when it came to an issue about children, the father had the primary right. That was changed under the Married Woman's Status Act 1957, when both parents were given equal rights in the event of a conflict. We have moved on to a much more enlightened stage, thanks to laws passed by the Oireachtas. The issue is no longer the right of the father or mother but the welfare of the children. That is an important aspect in our considerations.

One of our functions is to conduct or commission research into matters related to our functions, or such other matters that the Minister may request. We have published a number of reports on a variety of topics. There were 14 such reports in the first phase and I have a list of them. They are very useful because the beginning of knowledge is to recognise the extent of one's ignorance. We had much research to do to ensure that we were fully equipped with the necessary knowledge. Since the agency was established, we have undertaken five further research projects. If and when the Minister asks us to look into certain matters, he can refer them to us. Under the legislation, we examine those matters and send a report or recommendation to the Minister.

We see it as our function to strengthen the family in the community where that is feasible. Where it is not effective and where there is breakdown, vulnerability, family tension and things with which public representatives are familiar, our role is to provide services such as counselling, mediation or intervention of one form or another. We try to implement the priorities of the committee and of the Government. If members wish to ask questions, we will endeavour to respond.

Mr. Pat Bennett

I want to give a little further detail on the agency. There are 79 family resource centres co-funded through the agency. These centres have a focus on social inclusion and anti-poverty work and are spread throughout Ireland. They are run by voluntary and community groups that have been established as limited companies. Our job is to support the needs of those groups in their own areas. There are 543 organisations funded through the Family Support Agency in respect of marriage, child and bereavement counselling services. There are 14 offices dedicated to family mediation, ten of which are part-time and four of which are full-time. A further two offices are due to come onstream this year in Letterkenny and Portlaoise. The waiting lists for mediation are beginning to increase, particularly in our larger centres where waiting times are up to six or seven months. That is a concern and we are looking at a number of ways to deal with that problem.

We see mediation as a non-confrontational method of trying to resolve the difficult issue of familial breakdown and separation. In particular, when children are involved, we should focus on their best interests. As regards research, as Michael O'Kennedy has already noted, we have been involved with 14 projects and launched five of them. Currently, we are examining the next phase of the families research programme and a research officer has been in place for the last couple of months. The agency is investigating areas in which we should try to have an impact on policy.

Our advisory role to the Minister cannot be understated and he has asked us to examine the area of child care. An interdepartmental group of senior officials meets on the issue and we have set up a sub-group of the board to report back to the Minister by the middle of August. I am unsure whether the Chair wishes me to go into further detail on any particular area, but we are happy to take any questions put to us.

Mr. O’Kennedy

My colleague Bill O'Dea will be available to answer any questions the joint committee might have on administrative aspects if required. Muriel Walls will deal with any specialist areas relating to marriage, marital breakdown, family law or whatever.

I welcome the delegation and thank it for the documentation and interesting presentation. The agency does important work. Has the agency a definition as to what constitutes a family? Mr. O'Kennedy has stated that in the 1950s, we were all fairly clear as to what constituted a family. Now, however, the concept is moving and changing. How does the agency define "family"? Who, as a family, can avail of the agency's services?

Mr. O’Kennedy

It is not so much how we define it. I remember when the Minister of the day asked me to take on this responsibility, I asked him if I could study the Act setting up the agency. The first thing I looked for — as one nearly always does — was a section on definitions. I saw no definition of "family". I inquired about this, stating it was unusual and that there must be some reason for it. The Minister replied that he believed I would find out there was. Perhaps Muriel Walls can provide the joint committee with one or two cogent reasons, as that issue has arisen. The word "family" now has a different interpretation from the nuclear family. We made this point in a representation to the All-Party Committee on the Constitution. I understand that its members were interested to hear some of the facts we pointed out. Muriel Walls might elaborate on the number of different family units.

Ms Muriel Walls

As our chairman, Michael O'Kennedy, has noted, the Act does not define the family. As a board, we had much debate on this issue when we drew up our first strategic plan. The work done on the ground by the family resource centres, counselling services and the mediation service made it obvious that a wide variety of people who come to those agencies for assistance could not be squashed into what might be termed the constitutional definition of the family, namely, a husband and wife lawfully married with children. In our strategic plan, we stressed this diversity and the need for a broad definition which does not exclude anyone.

Our submission to the All-Party Committee on the Constitution on the constitutional definition of the family did not include any definition of our own, but we asked the committee to examine the reality of family life in Ireland, while at the same time stressing the benefits to society as a whole of a married family. That is the ideal to which we can aspire and having a stable structure is of major benefit to society. It is like the cement that keeps other disparate parts locked into it. However, we cannot ignore the reality that many families do not come within that definition. If any of us look at our own broader families, we may find unmarried parents or gay couples with children. People who have separated have formed new relationships, so there are stepchildren. Grandparents look after grandchildren because the parents have died or for some other reason and aunts and uncles perform the same role. Hence, if one does one's shopping on a Saturday in a supermarket and looks at family units, a considerable number do not come within that definition. As Mr. O'Kennedy stressed, the way we attempt to look at it is that the family should be defined more by reference to what family life is rather than any legal definitions of marriage. This is because children are at the heart of family life and children do not mind whether their parents are married or not. They do not mind whether their parents possess a piece of paper that gives them a constitutional definition. Children simply need two people who care about them and will parent them. The focus is on family life and the needs of children, as opposed to the rights of parents.

Mr. O’Kennedy

Ms Walls might mention the information on the many different categories of family that we presented to the All-Party Committee on the Constitution.

Before we proceed, I ask everyone to observe two minutes silence for the victims of the recent bombings in London. We will remain seated.

The committee observed two minutes silence.

Ms Walls

For our submission to the All-Party Committee on the Constitution, we looked at the different types of family. I tried to encompass all the different forms of family today. The family composed of parents married to each other with their own children is still the most common form. However, there are parents who adopt children, parents who are separated or divorced, widowed parents, parents who have gone through a religious marriage ceremony that may not confer legal rights, unmarried mothers or fathers and their children, single parents who adopt children, people who believe themselves validly married on foot of a foreign divorce but who are not, mothers who become pregnant through in vitro fertilisation or other medical procedures, parents who are bringing up the children of their partners, mothers and fathers who are not living together but who are parenting their children and people who stand in loco parentis. The category of people who stand in loco parentis is growing because siblings, grandparents, aunts or uncles often take over a parental role. I have probably mentioned most of the parental roles to be found today. Obviously, there are other categories of parents that involve arrangements such as surrogacy. Modern life is giving rise to all these things. These are cases and experiences that I have had as a practitioner and we probably all know of them in our communities.

Mr. O’Kennedy

We can supply the committee with copies of our submission to the All-Party Committee on the Constitution. The one constant for us — and, I am sure, for this committee — is children. They do not know about the elements involved. Are they to be disadvantaged because their parents were not married or had separated when they came into being? From our perspective and that of the committee, the well-being of the children is a priority.

What is the extent of marriage breakdown? Are there any statistics, facts or figures available? What are the reasons behind the pressures on people that lead to breakdown? At this stage of the agency's work, what can be done to help prevent such breakdowns? What would the delegation recommend? I know these are still the early days but this issue goes to the core of the agency's work. How does a community set up a family and community resource centre programme in its area? Does it contact the agency or does the agency contact it?

The agency is expanding significantly across the country at present. Regarding counselling, do the various centres provide their own counsellors rather than having the agency's involvement? In the submission, bereavement counselling services were mentioned. How widespread are they, particularly in respect of suicide, an issue about which a number of us are concerned? Suicide prevention is not under the agency's remit but perhaps bereavement counselling for people traumatised by suicide is. When will the website the agency is developing be on stream? From the responses of the delegation I assume that the mediation service is open to all couples who need this service. I am sure the agency has a list of the various voluntary organisations and so on that were funded by it. Could this list be made available to the committee?

Concerning the agency's ongoing and completed research, what types of research are involved and what information has come from them? How far have the standards and monitoring mechanisms for the agency been developed? How does the agency promote social inclusion? It was mentioned in the submission that there is a debate about the way in which poverty in Ireland is measured at present, be it relative income poverty, consistent poverty or something else. Does the agency agree with the Combat Poverty Agency that we should be moving towards relative income poverty measures? Figures show that many children are affected by consistent poverty. In the experience of members of the delegation, what impact are poverty and measures of poverty having on families? Does the agency provide any other support or preventive measures to couples in addition to relationship and marriage counselling?

Mr. O’Kennedy

I shall make a preliminary observation. Deputy Stanton has covered every aspect of the agency's work in his comprehensive questions. We will send the committee the data that relates to many of the Deputy's queries. For example, we can give the committee a list of all the research programmes we have undertaken.

Mr. Bennett

There are recent statistics from the census showing that divorce rates have increased significantly. The number of divorces granted by the Circuit Court and High Court in 2004 was 3,347, up from 2,929 in 2003. A more accurate figure, about which Ms Wall can speak, is the judicial separation rate, as there is a four-year time lag before people can get a divorce. The more accurate figure for judicial separations indicates the level is on the increase. Concerning prevention, one must identify vulnerable families. Where there are pressures on families, such as poverty, to which the committee member referred, we must support them. Family resource centres are located in areas of disadvantage and are examining the target groups mentioned by the committee member.

Mr. O’Kennedy

We visited a family resource centre located in a disadvantaged area in the constituency of the committee Chairman, Deputy Penrose, who is absent today.

Mr. Bennett

We also work with people with disabilities and members of ethnic minorities and vulnerable groups. From the viewpoint of the Family Support Agency early intervention should be at a local level. We should support local communities, which are aware of the situation on the ground.

Concerning the family and community resource centre programme, there are 79 resource centres in the programme at present and we have a commitment to extend this to 100 under the national development plan. It is not surprising that we are oversubscribed at present. Communities identify a need and make an application to us through a local committee and we assess the application. At present we have enough applications to achieve the current target of 100 post-2006. If there are other organisations interested in further information, members can put them in contact with me.

Mr. O'Dea may correct me on this point but the website should be operating within two to three weeks. As with all websites, some fine tuning must be done but at some point we must launch it, as it is preferable to have something rather than nothing. We can provide a list of family resource centres and there is also a directory of counselling organisations that we compiled two years ago. It is due to be updated this year and is organised by county. That will be helpful to Members of the Houses in identifying organisations in their constituencies.

We have been asked to carry out research into non-accidental child deaths, particularly where there has been strife in the family. As members can appreciate, it is a contentious issue and there were a number of high profile cases that peaked around 2000. The then Minister for Community, Family and Social Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, made a commitment to the House that when the agency was set up it would examine this area. We are working with the Garda research unit on this matter at present. The sub-group of the agency's research group is considering areas of research and is seeking to develop a plan. On the previous occasion it sought submissions for research on family issues but this time we have decided that we should research areas that will have an impact on policy and that are of interest to the Government.

The agency is subject to scrutiny by the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Public Accounts Committee. We are finalising our accounts for this process. We have an implementation plan and a sub-group of the board monitors that plan on a quarterly basis. Controls and mechanisms are in place.

Deputy Stanton's points on social inclusion are particularly valid. This is a concern and we focus on poverty. I am not in a position to disagree with the statistics of the Combat Poverty Agency and consistent poverty is an issue. Consistent poverty has decreased in the past number of years but there remains a cohort, particularly of children, numbering about 140,000, who experience poverty. We must intervene and work with the communities to deal with the situation.

In response to Deputy Stanton's questions on families, the percentage of women in the workforce has increased significantly since the 1970s. That has caused difficulties in relationships concerning work-life balance. While we have measures on equality and employment legislation, the issue of how couples manage a family is one which must be addressed by society. We must also deal with the major issue whereby, in some circumstances, much is expected of women in terms of going out to work and returning home to manage their families. Commuting times cause difficulties for people with regard the length of the day and the need for affordable and accessible child care. There are a number pressures in society which did not previously exist. The Celtic tiger brought some of them and we must be aware that everything has its downside and its difficulties.

Counselling is a major concern. My background is working with the health services and Deputy O'Connor and I were on a suicide prevention programme in the south-west area health board. We deal with the reactive side. We provide counselling after the event. Suicide prevention comes under the remit of the Departments of Health and Children and Justice, Equality and Law Reform. From our perspective, we are interested in working with those Departments in whatever way we can. Last year over 470 suicides occurred. This surpassed the figure for road deaths, which is frightening. Of our total funding, 17% is spent on suicide bereavement funding.

Child counselling is also a growth area. This is provided when separation occurs within a family. Divorce and separation create a huge need for us to be proactive in supporting children and deal with children's issues. That has a major impact on families and counselling creates a better outcome in relationships.

I tried to answer as many of the questions as possible. Ms Walls will comment on the issue of marriage break-up.

Ms Walls

I have identified some points on which I may be able to assist the committee. One of the difficulties with regard to the rate of marriage breakdown relates to working from accurate information. We get figures from the Courts Service on the number of applications for judicial separation and divorce but they are the tip of the iceberg. They are the cases that go through the legal process of judicial separation and divorce at Circuit Court or High Court level. Many cases do not go through that system. If the parties do not own their own home or do not have assets over which to fight in the context of judicial separation, they might just go to the District Court to deal with issues of custody or maintenance. Obtaining accurate figures on the rate of marital breakdown is an enormous task in itself.

The reasons for marriage breakdown are many. Research commissioned by the Department includes a number of useful projects on whether marriage counselling helps distressed relationships and the causes of relationship breakdown. It has been some time since I read those reports. In reality, one cannot pigeonhole it on the basis of particular reasons. It might be alcohol abuse in one case and adultery in another. Broadly speaking, it appears to be a breakdown in communication between the parties at an early stage of the relationship, thereby sending the couple off in different directions. It is then too late to mend fences. Communication is certainly a major factor.

Understanding relationships is also important. Mr. Bennett mentioned reasons from my work as a specialist family lawyer. I must take a history for each client and the stresses and strains that people operate under now are a major cause. It upsets me, as I approach my 50s, to see young couples married three or four years coming in. Their marriages have already fallen apart and perhaps they have young families.

As a practitioner working at the back end, it often struck me during the divorce referendum campaign seven or eight years ago that there was little discussion about marriage. We discussed divorce but not marriage, the expectations people have of it, how much effort must be made in order for the relationship to work and the impact of children on the relationship. As a society, we must have that discussion.

The family resource centres provide support within communities. If a relationship is fractured, counselling services should be there to help people overcome those difficulties. If that fails, the mediation service attempts to enable the couple to go through the process of separation with a degree of dignity and mutual respect. We try to enable couples to go through the process of separation with a degree of dignity and mutual respect. If all else fails, the courts are there as a port of last resort.

I welcome Ms Walls. Regarding the family units, I read some statistics recently — perhaps provided by the Family Support Agency — that there are well in excess of 20 different family types. When one reads through the descriptions, one is amazed and wonders how to define a family in that context. One just decides that there are different family types or categories into which each family will fit. I see that the agency's funding has been increased and that is obviously demand led, to some extent. However, I am impressed by the fact that only 8% of the agency's budget is spent on administration. Many other publicly funded groups could take a lead from its example.

I note that 80% of the agency's funding goes to voluntary groups. Without such groups the country would be in a serious mess. Voluntary groups carry out an enormous amount of valuable work. I am concerned, however, that the agency is funding voluntary groups which obviously intend to do good but their volunteers might not be adequately qualified. Many of the family situations about which we are talking are extremely difficult and if the wrong type of individual — who may be well-meaning — is giving the wrong advice to a person, that could be damaging. I would like to hear Ms Walls's comments on that issue. What level of vetting does the agency undertake? Does it monitor the type of advice given by voluntary groups or how they carry out their work? If people want to become volunteers, are they ever told they are not suitable and do not match the required criteria? This is a major issue because we are talking about a highly specialised area.

With regard to counselling, what level of duplication is there between the services provided by the agency and the health boards? Counselling is one of the core aspects of the services provided by the health boards and I am concerned that the agency might be duplicating the work of social welfare workers or the psychiatric services. Many services are provided under one umbrella and there is a danger that efforts will be duplicated.

The agency states that its services are developing and that it is opening new offices. I suspect that more offices are required than can be provided within a given timescale. I am concerned, however, that there is a waiting period of up to six months for certain services, such as those relating to family mediation. One of the reasons people try to steer clear of the legal process is the length of time it takes but some of the waiting times for the agency's services are quite long. It would appear that more resources are needed if people are being forced to wait for long periods to access the services. Can Ms Walls give us an indication of the agency's success rate with the family mediation services? Do people try the mediation service first or do they decide that it will not work for them and choose to go down the legal route? Family mediation services, particularly where children are involved, can be invaluable if they enable problems to be resolved in an amicable fashion.

I am also interested in Ms Wall's views on pre-marriage courses and whether the agency should get involved at that level. I know many people who complete pre-marriage courses only to ensure that the priest or reverend will perform their wedding ceremony. Attendance at such courses is becoming a prerequisite for church weddings but perhaps it should be taken more seriously. Perhaps the agency should become involved at that level to inform people of the type of commitment into which they are entering. Does Ms Walls have any views on pre-nuptial agreements?

Mr. O’Kennedy

I shall respond to some of the broad issues, then the chief executive, Mr. Bennett, will respond in detail. We have, in addition to the website, engaged a full-time public relations consultant. There is no point in hiding our light under a bushel. That is not our nature. Public representatives will recognise that the world should be made aware of one's existence. We particularly welcome the opportunity to appear before this committee because it will enhance the FSA's profile. The public relations consultant has only recently been appointed.

Families in communities are important elements of a positive support framework. Some members of this committee have extensive experience of community work. Strong communities provide a stable base for families. Our family resource centres draw extensively on community strengths and supports. The Deputy is correct in that it will not merely be a matter of professional advice or consultancy. We are aware of the importance of that.

On mediation, we are conscious of the need for early intervention. However, early intervention requires knowledge and people who are aware of the support and assistance that we can provide. We can supply further information on this to the committee. We endorse, in principle, the Deputy's remarks.

What about pre-nuptial agreements?

Mr. O’Kennedy

That is matter for Ms Walls. We have not yet addressed that issue in detail.

Mr. Bennett

The Deputy is correct in stating that evaluations of voluntary organisations are important. We have introduced a self-evaluation process for family resource centres. This comprises a computer package which will contain a national database on the client groups we meet. Visits to family resource centres will be recorded in this database. Before renewing our current three-year contract, we must undertake a process to ensure that the needs of the target groups in the area are met. That process is in place.

The counselling scheme has been in place since 1997, whereas the agency was only established in 2003. We are conscious of the issue of counselling. At present, we have a review process in place and we are anxious to ensure that counselling organisations have proper standards and procedures. A sub-group of the board is examining accreditation of organisational structures for counselling organisations. The Deputy correctly said that the advice people give is important. Inappropriate advice can do more harm than good to a vulnerable person.

Mr. O’Kennedy

Membership of the board includes those with professional expertise in this area, such as Dr. Colm O'Connor, a clinical psychologist and director of the Cork marriage counselling centre.

Mr. Bennett

With regard to volunteers, we have a support structure in place for community groups. We fund organisations to provide support on administration, company law and engagement with target groups. Support and volunteer training programmes are built into the community groups. A pack for volunteers becoming involved in programmes is being developed in the west of Ireland and will be made nationally available. We consider this important.

On the Deputy's comments regarding the health services, and bearing in mind that I have a background in health, we provide funding for marriage, child, relationship and bereavement counselling services. The emphasis in health service counselling is often on child abuse and protection. Of course, issues cross each other. Nobody enters counselling with a single issue. Relationship problems often arise from other issues, which may be addressed elsewhere. Our scheme is particularly focused on marriage, relationship, child and bereavement counselling services.

One of the important roles of family resource centres is referring people to the appropriate services. The centres act somewhat like the citizens information service, whereby people go to the centres seeking a particular type of counselling. The centres will not provide counselling if the staff are not geared to provide it, in which case they will refer a person to a relevant source. The centres have contacts with the health boards, the Department of Social and Family Affairs and other Government and non-statutory organisations.

The Deputy rightly pointed out that a waiting period of seven months for people to avail of the family mediation service is unacceptable. Our board wrote to the secretary general, following the last board meeting, expressing concern regarding the need for additional resources in this area. We are examining the potential of developing a panel of mediators, similar to that under the Legal Aid Board in the case of solicitors, on whom we could call to deal with a backlog in terms of the waiting list. We fully endorse the Deputy's point that a seven month waiting period under this process is unacceptable.

As to the success of the family mediation service, in 60% of cases some form of agreement is reached between couples. That is a high figure based on the fact that people are dealing with difficult situations and those 60% of people would otherwise end up in the court system. It is also welcome in terms of the outcome for children, although we will try to improve on that rate. As Ms Walls said, solicitors have a duty to direct people towards family mediation but the couple concerned must agree to seek it. Referral cannot be mandatory. If a couple are forced to seek family mediation, they will not reach any type of agreement and will end up in the court system.

What percentage of couples seek mediation and do couples decide not to seek it?

Mr. Bennett

The only figure I have is that some 1,492 couples sought mediation last year and that number is on the increase. I will find out that figure for the Deputy. I do not know how many couples decided to go elsewhere. I do not know if Ms Walls has statistics on that.

There is no way one can get statistics in that regard, other than in the case of people who avail of the service and then become statistics. We, as solicitors, must advise clients of the benefits of mediation and the names and addresses of the various services available before we issue proceedings in respect of matters concerning children, separation or divorce. Often when people seek the advice of a lawyer, it is at quite a late stage, and even though we encourage them to seek the mediation service, a waiting list may put them off. The earlier they can get information on the family mediation service the better.

It is difficult to measure the success of the service. While there are statistics on a level of agreement that has been reached by a couple, they may have reached agreement in only one area. Often, it is in regard to the children and the financial position may be so complicated that the couple cannot reach agreement on that aspect. Even that partial agreement can be of huge assistance. Even when there is not a level of agreement, the fact that the couple at least attempted, in a particular forum with the benefit of a mediator, to resolve and discuss their differences, is beneficial. It certainly does not do any harm to have gone through that process, even if ultimately they cannot reach an agreement.

What level of liaison has the agency with the health boards and health board counselling services? Will one of the representatives give a brief outline of the package for volunteers in the west?

Mr. Bennett

Although we fund 543 organisations, there has never been a network of counselling organisations; they all work on an individual basis. We started the process of developing a network of organisations. I link in with the health boards in terms of their counselling services. I have commenced preliminary discussions with the health boards to establish the potential for our working together in the field of counselling. The Deputy is right in that the need for such integration in this is extremely important. What was the Deputy's second question?

I asked for an outline of the volunteer package.

Mr. Bennett

I can ensure the Deputy is given the package. It is basically a manual that advises people how to engage with the target groups in the area, how to deal with particular issues and whether issues should be dealt with by the volunteer, referred to a professional or to somebody else. It gives an outline of that information. It is very useful for community groups and the agency wants to make it available nationwide.

Mr. O’Kennedy

When we have had time to consider the serious implications and priorities for the committee in this discussion we will forward a pack. I am conscious that public representatives are generally overwhelmed with documentation but we will try to limit it to matters arising from this discussion.

Mr. Bennett

We have been involved in a mapping project for all family support services in the north west with the Health Service Executive, HSE. The pilot phase is complete and is on the website, www.families.ie. It would be useful for members of the committee to look at that information. One can look up Letterkenny, for example, and see what services are provided there and by clicking again get detail on supports for suicide prevention.

We want to develop this project. We also have a list of counselling organisations and I hope the mapping exercise will help to integrate services with the HSE as well as other statutory providers.

I will be brief because many of the questions have been asked and very well answered too. I welcome the Family Support Agency and compliment it on the great work it is doing. It recognises every town and village in the country. Marital breakdown is occurring on such a wide scale that family support is needed now more than ever.

At one time marital breakdown occurred mainly among people in poverty because of alcohol abuse or the effects of poverty. Now the upper classes, who are more independent in their ways, are also suffering marital breakdown. Does the agency have comparative figures for marital breakdown among those who are poor and those who are wealthy?

In our clinics we meet men who find themselves out on a limb because, generally speaking, the mother and children remain in the family home, which is probably right. The father, however, is more or less out on the street, looking for housing and, in some cases, has difficulty getting access to the children. Is this a growing concern?

Mr. O’Kennedy

Having regard to the experience of public representatives who meet people every day of the week, if committee members have any views, suggestions, criticisms or whatever concerning our service, we would be happy to hear from them at any time. I am aware that members are on the spot and know of the various tensions and pressures people experience.

Deputy Callanan mentioned the characteristics he encounters. Ms Walls deals with a certain category of people in her professional practice in Dublin which may be very different from that in rural Ireland. Nevertheless, perhaps she can give the Deputy an idea of the characteristics of modern marital breakdown.

One development we welcome is that fathers have had access to us. As Deputy Callanan implies, they feel they have been ignored and disadvantaged in consultations regarding their responsibilities and rights or their plight. Some of our research programmes have focused on fathers in vulnerable situations and what they perceive as their rights, and on the manner in which we might provide services for them.

Ms Walls

I am not sure I can help the Deputy in regard to the division of the figures between the groups he mentions.

Mr. O’Kennedy

There is a big difference between the town and the country.

Ms Walls

Indeed, and there is a difference between rich and poor but it is a classless problem. Marriage breakdown is affecting everybody, from the poorest to the wealthiest. The wealthiest, at least, have a mechanism whereby homes can be bought for both parties and this means that at one level the pain can be somewhat less. In terms of figures, the court statistics on judicial separation probably reflect a middle class problem. In order to make an application one must have something to ask the court to determine such as ownership of the home, pensions or income. That suggests a predominantly middle class problem. Of course the statistics in the District Court involving maintenance for children, guardianship or domestic violence probably reflect a figure for breakdown that possibly includes statistics for deserted wives. However, these figures would all have to be bundled together to get some sort of handle on the level of the overall problem.

It is right to say that as a group fathers are highly disaffected. I tend to divide fathers into two categories. First, there are the non-marital fathers, men who are fathers of children but who are not married to the mothers. John Waters is seen as the champion of this group and never lets an opportunity go by to flag their concerns. That is an enormous area. The Status of Children Act 1987 did not give non-marital fathers automatic guardianship of their children. That Act was passed 17 or 18 years ago. The issue needs to be looked at again because there are a very large number of disaffected fathers in this group. There might have been reasons at the time, in 1987, why they were not given automatic guardianship rights. Men could become fathers as a result of unprotected casual sex on a Saturday night, or they might be very committed individuals in long-term relationships who are model fathers, by any standard.

Then there is the other group, namely, married fathers who as a result of marriage breakdown and perhaps a focus on the needs of the children, are not living in the family home. They may be struggling to maintain a good parenting relationship with their children, particularly in circumstances where they may not have a home of their own. Fathers can parent their children excellently, if they have that home. If they literally have the children for a few hours on a Saturday, with no home to go to, that is a problem. It is fine in the summer when there are plenty of activities to be involved in, but not so good in winter, and they feel marginalised. They do not have proper time with their children, such as bedtime, homework time and all those important intervals, which are squashed into a couple of hours at weekends. There is a growing resentment which needs to be addressed.

I join with others in thanking the delegation for coming in today and making this presentation. Obviously the agency is to be complimented for the work it does. Unfortunately it is a service that is needed more and more as time goes on. That is a reflection, no doubt, on our society in terms of the extent of family breakdown, and given that family relationships are as diverse as they are today. I was going to ask the delegates their definition of "family" but Deputy Stanton has already done so. We cannot any longer think of the family simply as the married couple with children. Today, society is much more diverse. Bearing that in mind, with the information the agency has collected over the years, can it list in order of priority the reasons for the breakdown of "family" units, using that term in its most diverse and appropriate sense?

Mr. Bennett outlined some of the stressful situations which account for family breakdown. He mentioned the fact that more women are in the workplace. Therefore, may we take it from this that when more women were working at home and looking after their families, the family was a stronger and better functioning unit? Has the agency, in its reports to any Minister, outlined why and how it believes these issues could be dealt with or how our society could be best improved? Has the agency come to any conclusions on why our family life is breaking down more so than it was 20 or 30 years ago? Mr. Bennett was speaking in general about a man and a woman in the home or at work with children and the stress that causes for a family. Can that stress be related to the single parent, male or female? What about the impact that stress has on a child or children? Has the agency delivered any reports on its findings to different Departments? If we accept that family life has changed, has the agency come to any conclusions on what should be done?

How serious an issue is domestic violence, according to the agency? Figures certainly show that the victims are mainly women, although I accept that men can also be the victims.

Mr. Bennett

Modern stresses and pressure cause much difficulty for couples. I mentioned some of those pressures when both parents are working. I am not sure if it is true to say whether things were better or worse 30 years ago. Divorce did not exist then and we have a different kind of society now. I do not have any hard figures on the process. Much research has been carried out on the work-life balance. This deals with decisions between couples on parenting and around different household functions. It is not fair to put all the responsibility on women, as men must start taking more responsibility on these issues. It is important to note that the situation has changed.

The reality is that children born outside of marriage in Ireland represent one in three births, compared with one in four across Europe. Children born outside marriage, particularly to lone parents, are at a much higher risk of poverty. It is a major concern when dealing with education and the future development of children. There needs to be a multi-agency approach to this.

We represent one piece of the Government instrument in this area. A range of supports is needed. We recently made a submission to the interdepartmental group on those parenting alone and obstacles to employment. From our contacts in the agency, I am very conscious that we should not just focus on employment issues. Different supports are needed by people in different circumstances. Is going to work always the answer? I argue that different responses are needed to that process.

We made a submission on the Constitution which focused on family life. We have also had much contact with men's groups. Last year, for the first time, the Family Support Agency funded men's groups in respect of relationship counselling, which was a departure from previous decisions. It is important that we also support men in this manner as regards the ongoing relationships they must have with their children. Obviously, domestic violence, be it perpetrated by men or women, is a huge concern. As research has shown, it is perpetrated by men in the majority of cases. Again, through the family resource centres, we are involved in this issue by sometimes being the first to be notified and by referring the individuals to the appropriate services. While domestic violence is a concern, strictly speaking it is not directly within the remit of the Family Support Agency. However, when dealing with families, it is something of which one must be aware.

Mr. O’Kennedy

I will make one observation on a matter to which Muriel Walls has already referred in passing. Ideally, as we expressed in our submission to the All-Party Committee on the Constitution, we take the view that the conventional family in a community-based structure is probably the most stable element of our society. Clearly, we want to support that element as much as possible. Obviously, however, we are not in the business of bypassing or ignoring the need to support other family elements which may face problems from lack of education, economic opportunity, social awareness or whatever. This is why, in the main, we try to favour early intervention, where possible, through our various counselling services.

As the joint committee is aware, we support a range of counselling services. I would not like to think, however, that any member would suggest that because this agency has been established on a statutory basis, we can take on exclusive responsibility for stabilising family life by whatever means because we cannot do so. However, we can work in the context of a co-ordinated programme as well as with statutory bodies, such as the joint committee, and the various voluntary organisations. That has been the agency's purpose in its short life, in addition to ensuring, in the first instance, that people become aware of our existence and the various agencies through which we work.

I wish to be associated with the warm welcome extended to the delegates. It is good to encounter Mr. O'Kennedy again. I have known him for a long period. I am glad to see him so well and happy in this particular role. I would not normally mention that I know a chief executive because sometimes one can get them into trouble but, as Mr. Bennett was kind enough to mention me, I can admit we knew each other in another life. He was always helpful to me when I was the founding chairman of the South Western Area Health Board and I wish him every success in his current role.

The discussion and questions have been interesting and reflect the current position. Mr. O'Kennedy made the point that we come across many of these problems in our constituencies. I carry out eight advice clinics every week and I have often made the point that the majority of callers to those clinics, to my full-time office in Tallaght and to my mobile telephone are women. An enormous number of women come with all sorts of problems, although other colleagues have observed that men now also come to us. Some members will know Ray Kelly, the chairman of the separated fathers group. He is based on the estate in which I live and, consequently, I am frequently contacted in that regard.

It is important to tell the witnesses that we appreciate their attendance. While they stated that there are benefits for them, there are also benefits for the Oireachtas system in that we get the opportunity to share information and establish what is the current situation.

Like other colleagues, I have never professed to be an expert on these matters. Frequently, when people come to us with serious family problems, we must be able to access information and services fairly quickly and it is important that we can so do. Our roles are compatible in that sense.

While I do not wish to ambush the chief executive, Mr. Bennett might note that this week, I received some timely correspondence from an organisation called SWAN, the South West Active Network, a family support group operating in Springfield where I live. I live in Tallaght just in case the delegation cannot remember. I normally am not parochial in my work in the Houses of the Oireachtas. I am very proud of the work that is carried out in Tallaght, which is the third largest population centre in the country and therefore has many issues to deal with.

South West Active Network, SWAN, sent me a long letter during the week. It is very unhappy about the decision by the Family Support Agency regarding SWAN's application for funding. I am not ambushing the delegation I am merely mentioning the matter because it is important that I do and perhaps the delegation might direct someone to look at the decision and possibly let me know the outcome. SWAN makes serious points that are akin to those made by the delegation. SWAN is anxious to help families in Tallaght and feels that it should receive support. Perhaps the criteria are different and the delegation will come back to me with a different answer but I wished to raise the matter.

Other than that, I strongly support the work of the Family Support Agency because it is important that we support its work. I am separated and understand the perspective of a separated person. It does not prevent me from doing my job or living my life. There is a life for those of us who have been unlucky in this regard.

On an occasion like this, it is good to focus on it and the points that have been made, particularly the point made by Ms Walls that there are all kinds of families. It is important that we acknowledge this and try to respond to that in all our work, including the work of public representatives, and provide services for people who for various reasons are challenged or at risk.

I wish the Family Support Agency well. These Oireachtas hearings are very important because they give groups an opportunity to highlight their own work, needs and concerns and constitute a good use of Oireachtas time, particularly during the summer when the world thinks that this work is not ongoing. It is important that we make this case.

I welcome the Family Support Agency and am pleased to see my former Oireachtas colleague, Mr. Michael O'Kennedy, who is chairman of the agency. It is wonderful to see him involved in such work. An individual mentioned previously that he or she was not an expert on marriage. Who is? Serious questions are being posed at present regarding marriage and marital breakdown. My colleague, Deputy Callanan, indicated the way things are and the reasons therefore. While I appreciate the response that there are no barriers, nonetheless I maintain that barriers exist to some extent.

I am sure everyone has heard of Dr. Samuel Johnson and James Boswell. Boswell asked Dr. Johnson his opinion on marriage and he replied that it was a mistake to marry and a mistake not to marry but that each man must find out for himself which is the greater error. I presume he meant that every woman must do so as well.

There is a real need for the Family Support Agency in Ireland at the moment. I am glad to see that the agency has identified and is addressing issues that need to be addressed. I cannot praise highly enough the two family life centres in my county, Vita House in Roscommon and the Family Life Centre in Boyle, Roscommon, for their work with both stable families and families in difficulty and their contribution to family life. Vita House was very disappointed this year because it was excluded from funding for its development programme. I made representations to the Minister for Social and Family Affairs regarding this issue and hope that the matter could return to the Family Support Agency at some stage and that the agency might be able to further examine the case. I wish to raise a few issues, one of which concerns separated fathers. While single fathers are also an issue, separated fathers are appearing on my books apace. They portray themselves as victims, people who are not considered or factored into solutions. They go through very difficult times, particularly during the early stages of separation.

The local authority system in this country is in no way helpful in this respect. First, many local authorities have little accommodation for single men, only for older men in their 60s or 70s. I have encountered a real difficulty, one that I hope the agency will address at some point. If I were to ask a local authority for a three-bedroom house for one of the men in question, he could not get it. His children cannot visit him unless he has accommodation for them, even though he has an entitlement to access.

Local authorities do not support the structures we would hope to have in place. They must become more responsive to this situation. As Deputy Callanan said, keeping the family home is a good idea. It is where the mother stays and where the children are cared for and brought up, which is as it should be. However, local authorities must play a more proactive role in trying to maintain the father's bond or connection by providing him opportunities for access to his children. One cannot send two teenage children, a boy and a girl, to a one-bedroom rented flat for a weekend or so forth. We are basically creating a situation whereby fathers can only have access to their children by taking them for walks, into town or to functions. Will the agency raise this issue with the local authority system?

It often takes a while for a legal separation to take place, with much toing and froing. Local authorities do not deal in short-term tenancies, which I cannot understand. If they know that a matter is going to be settled, why do they not accept that this person will be able to go into a new mortgage situation and provide a second home? The one or two-year period is difficult, which local authorities should be able to understand. They should decide to provide a house for 12 months or longer. These are practical actions that can be taken by local authorities. This is not rocket science but is a matter of someone in the local authority system operating on a family basis. I would welcome this development.

Extra family centres are needed but their proliferation is not in people's best interests, as there is no need for one in every village, even though people have the idea that there is a need. Good services at good locations in each county area is a better solution. I do not want to oppose any application received by the agency but it is not in the best interest of the agency or the nation to have mediocre centres everywhere providing limited services. They should be well-positioned close to population centres and should provide a good range of services. In Vita House in County Roscommon, a diploma course in psychology is being run this year. Other areas are discussing family centres but I do not agree. I would like to see further developments at the centres we already have.

I again welcome the delegation and compliment the agency on its work. It is playing a positive role in society and its needs are absolute at this time. I note that funding has increased by a large percentage, from 21% to 43%, and I encourage the Minister for Social and Family Affairs or the Minister for Finance to make much-needed funds available. When I started out as a member of my local authority 26 years ago I had no experience of the situations I encounter today, particularly those concerning housing issues.

Mr. O'Kennedy mentioned the importance of strong communities. Does he agree this is an area in which we must do much work? Although we are building vast housing estates there is no community centre, nor any way of forming or developing a sense of community in those areas.

Is it the view of the agency that guardianship should automatically be granted to a father who is not married to the mother of the child? A change in the law is needed in this area. At present, if a couple separates or if the mother dies, the father does not have automatic guardianship of the child. Guardianship passes to grandparents or other family members of the mother. Does the law need to be changed?

Has the issue of cohabitation and the lone parents' allowance come to the attention of the agency? Families are being forced to live apart because of the situation concerning the lone parents' allowance and the cohabitation rule. If the father lives with the mother she will lose the allowance and the family will have less money. Has the agency considered this and does it have any suggestions? Does the agency have a view on family law and court cases held in camera, which has been debated recently? Should a change be made or is the present situation satisfactory?

Ireland is now multicultural and there are different types of families as well as different conceptions of families from other countries. Is this something that has come to the attention of the agency? Could the agency provide us with statistics for the number of judicial separations? Families headed by someone with a disability have a higher risk of poverty than normal families. Has the agency examined this and does it have any views on the matter?

Mr. O’Kennedy

I wish to make a preliminary, personal observation, arising from the Deputy's first intervention concerning community. On this matter I do not speak on behalf of the agency but from personal experience. Growing up in Nenagh I was conscious of living in a community. There was a community support framework and if one was up to devilment, Mrs. Maguire would contact one's mother. One could also drop in on Mrs. Maguire for apple tart. A sense of family and community is one of the most reassuring and stabilising experiences for youngsters. The physical housing stock in local authority housing programmes in Dublin and other cities compares with the best anywhere in the world. It is probably better than what exists elsewhere in Europe, of which I have some experience.

However, there is one issue that has not been addressed. When housing was developed in Ballyfermot many years ago most of the inhabitants came from the old heart of Dublin, the Liberties. This was a village community transferred to what may be described as the outer realms of the human condition. The community element is not there any more. In Tallaght the best possible physical housing stock is provided in the most ideal location under the mountains and close to the sea. Where would one get better? In any other city in Europe, such as Paris or Rome, one would say it was a high quality location. Local authorities, particularly Dublin Corporation, must examine the fact that they move all of the vulnerable elements, battered wives and unmarried people into a community without the demographic mix required. That demographic mix is an essential element in community stability. If nothing else comes out of our discussion this morning, it should be noted that community framework is a large element of support. I thought I would throw in my own personal tuppence worth on that and suggest that those on the committee with responsibility for housing matters, particularly in the cities, must bear it in mind.

Our local authority physical stock compares both in location and in construction with the best found in some of the most prestigious private developments in the cities of Europe. What happens is that the social mix and social programming necessary to underpin it are missing.

Mr. Bennett

We have engaged extensively with separated fathers. The points raised often come up during the family mediation process. I am sure Ms Walls said more on accommodation. We can certainly make recommendations on that process and we have been providing comments on different policies. Separated fathers are marginalised and housing is a major concern. In that instance one concentrates on children. If the separated father is not the guardian of those children it creates a particular difficulty and we fully endorse the comments made on that issue.

The proliferation of family resource centres was mentioned. The agreement under the national development plan is for 100 family resource centres. As an agency we are examining what will happen post-2006. We are taking the approach committee members suggested, which is examining increasing the capacity of existing family resource centres and the possibility they could provide outreach services to other communities. A level of expertise and knowledge has been built up. It is correct to state that quality will drop if too many family resource centres are established.

Community supports other than family resource centres exist, such as projects run by health boards and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Again, an important aspect is the integration of those services. The answer is not a family resource centre in every town and village.

With regard to Deputy Stanton's point, family resource centres have a community development ethos. Their most important aspect is not the provision of services but checking in with the community and seeing what its needs are on an ongoing basis. We are aware people can get comfortable delivering services and forget what the community needs as it changes. We see a large contribution towards the development of those communities.

Ms Walls will take up the point on automatic guardianship. The issue of cohabitation has crossed our desks and we have made submissions to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, which has been examining this issue for some time. Our Minister made a statement on the contradictory policy whereby couples are encouraged to be together but they are disqualified from receiving the one-parent allowance if there is evidence of that. We have commented on it and made a submission to the interdepartmental group dealing with lone parents, which will finish its deliberations at the end of August. It is important we do not have contradictory Government policies. Family mediation also faces difficulties because sometimes one encourages people to agree on an issue in a way that fits in with the system rather than meets the needs of the individuals. I fully endorse that point.

The area of interculturalism is important. We fund Pavee Point, which is concerned with Travellers and ethnic minorities. We fund the National Consultative Committee on Interculturalism and Racism. We are moving away from the idea of multiculturalism towards interculturalism. We think the latter is much more valuable. Multiculturalism implies that everyone has his or her own culture, whereas interculturalism suggests the integration of cultures, which is extremely important.

With regard to the changes to the in camera ruling for family courts, the agency made a submission to the Department regarding the regulations. We are very pleased the Minister accepted our recommendation regarding mediators being approved by the agency and the Minister. We were concerned that anyone could call himself or herself a mediator and go into the family courts. We are not sure if the changes in the in camera system will go further in the future, but it is important to strike a balance between privacy and public scrutiny and the changes go some way towards achieving that objective. I do not have with me the required information on judicial separation but I will forward it to the committee as soon as possible.

Ms Walls

A number of Deputies asked why marriages break down. We will forward to the committee a list of the research material that has been published on the issue. Within the last year, the report from the MRCS, Distressed Relationships — Does Counselling Help?, has been of particular value. Other relevant research includes the report, How was it for you? — Checking on Couples After One Year of Marriage, and the publication, Strengthening Families Through Fathers. Such research gives some indication as to why marriages fail, the reasons for which are infinitely variable.

On the issue of cohabitation and lone parents, a number of the boards that run the family resource centres have indicated that there is a complete disconnection in that area. On the one hand, we are asking fathers to be involved with their children but, on the other hand, if they are physically living in the house with them and there is an inspection, the lone parent allowance is forfeited and the financial disadvantage is enormous. There is an opposition within the policy whereby we are trying to achieve a positive outcome but are not assisting people in their efforts.

With regard to the in camera rule, until last week the system afforded almost absolute privacy to the couple involved in the cases. In fairness, the focus was not on protecting those working within the system, judges and others, but to protect the privacy of the parties involved. However, because there was so much misinformation being propagated as to what was going on in the family courts — much of it completely inaccurate — it is right that a limited group, comprising people from the Law Reform Commission, researchers and accredited family mediators, can observe the proceedings. Ultimately, that group may expand a little further in the future but from the perspective of the client, who is often distressed and facing a difficult situation, to be told there are journalists from various newspapers and television programmes in court would be disastrous. The changes strike a balance between providing the public with information about what goes on in the family courts, and respecting the right to privacy of the parties involved in the cases.

The board has not discussed, or formulated a view on, the issue of guardianship for fathers. My view is that fathers should automatically be guardians. If an exclusion is required because, for example, the father disappears and has no contact with the child, the mother could apply to the courts to have him excluded as guardian. I believe the time has come to tip the balance in a different direction. If fathers want to be involved with their children, they should be encouraged. If the general principle is that they are guardians and must meet their responsibilities, both financially and as parents, that might raise the standards throughout family life.

Mr. Bennett

Perhaps I could interject because I forgot to reply to the comments regarding disability, for which I apologise. The agency funds DESSA, the Disability Equality Specialist Support Agency, which is beginning to identify issues of concern in the area of relationships and disability. There is major pressure on parents of children with disabilities and there is a high rate of separation among them. That is the reality. Some research has been carried out in the United States which shows that parents of a child with a disability or parents of multiple-birth children experience extra pressures and their risk of separation is increased. The Family Support Agency is very conscious of these facts.

I thank witnesses and members for their contributions. This is a matter which arises daily. We meet husbands and wives with these problems at our clinics. We should hold further discussions on these problems and work together to help people resolve them.

Mr. O’Kennedy

It has been a privilege to address this committee. I thank members for their reassuring and encouraging words, which are welcome to a new agency. We would also welcome any critical observations members may have. We will endeavour to supply a document to the committee arising from these discussions.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.21 p.m and adjourned at 1.37 p.m sine die.

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