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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 21 Sep 2006

National Waiver Scheme: Presentation.

We will hear a presentation from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in respect of the national waiver scheme for refuse services for people on low incomes. Deputy Ring has been to the fore in highlighting this issue and helping us arrive at the position we hold. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Tom O'Mahony, assistant secretary, and Ms Caroline Lyons, assistant principal, from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Mr. O'Mahony and Ms Lyons will make a presentation in respect of the national waiver scheme for refuse services for people on low incomes. The Department's memorandum has been circulated to all members of the committee, who have undoubtedly read and reviewed it. I invite Mr. O'Mahony and Ms Lyons to make their presentation, the contents of which will probably be summarised by them.

I must begin by making the customary comments delivered before any presentation, with which Mr. O'Mahony and Ms Lyons are undoubtedly familiar. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members who wish to make a declaration in respect of any matter being discussed may do so now or at the beginning of their contributions. Members are also reminded that if there is a possibility of a conflict of interest arising, they should make a declaration of interest either now or at the beginning of their contribution.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that while members have absolute privilege, this same privilege does not apply to those appearing before the committee. While it is generally accepted that new witnesses will have qualified privilege, the committee is not in a position to guarantee the level of privilege afforded to witnesses appearing before it. I doubt if this will arise but it is customary to point out this fact as a prelude to any presentation.

I invite Mr. O'Mahony to make his presentation.

Mr. Tom O’Mahony

We are pleased to appear before the committee. Deputies on this committee will be aware that the Dáil debated this matter in February 2005. A motion was moved to introduce a national waiver scheme but the Government moved an amendment, supported by a majority in the Dáil. This gave the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government an opportunity to set out the Government's policy on the issue. I will set out that policy and update the committee on developments since the debate.

Waste management services have the particular characteristic of being planned, administered and delivered at local or regional, rather than national, level. The Minister referred to waste management services as being the quintessential local service. The Government provides the national policy context and the Oireachtas provides the legislative framework in which the services operate. This has implications for the charging decisions taken at local level but, ultimately, decisions on service provision by local authorities, private contractors or a combination of both are made at local level, as are decisions on charges and waivers.

Everyone appreciates that we have moved rapidly to a more sustainable approach to waste management than was the case in the past. Traditionally, very little was invested in waste management and we relied on low-technology landfills. Waste management consisted of digging a hole in the ground and burying waste in it. There was little emphasis on recycling and little discussion of ideas such as waste prevention and minimisation in the early 1990s. In a short time everything has changed. The Oireachtas has introduced a comprehensive legal framework, the Government has introduced a comprehensive policy framework and we manage our waste in a manner that supports sustainable development. We have the capacity to support the rapid economic expansion, social development and population growth that has occurred while ensuring that the environment and human health are protected.

Comprehensive infrastructure, such as recycling facilities, had to be set up so that we could attain high rates of recycling. Whatever waste goes to final disposal — at present it is all sent to landfill — should be dealt with in the most environmentally sustainable manner. The Government, local authorities and the private sector have made a concerted effort to achieve a modern framework. We have far fewer landfills than we had and every landfill must be licensed to operate to the highest environmental standards. Old landfills that did not meet this standard have been closed down. A large recycling network has been set up, with bring banks and civic amenity sites. The number of households with access to segregated collection of dry recyclables, namely, green bins, has increased dramatically from approximately 70,000 in 1998 to more than 500,000. I previously got into trouble by describing the bins used as green because the colour coding in some counties is different and the green bin is not for recyclables. I use the phrase in its generally understood context.

More than 50,000 of those households now have a third bin, reflecting the start of the roll-out of segregated collection of organic waste. A great deal of money was invested in this expansion by local authorities and the environment fund. More recently, additional Exchequer funding was also provided. A capital grants scheme established in 2002 has provided in excess of €50 million to more than 90 recycling projects. All of this has paid off with quite dramatic improvements in our recycling performance. In 1998, 9% of municipal waste throughout the country was recycled. The Government published a policy statement setting a target of 35% to be achieved by 2013. In 2004, the figure was 34%. In six years, Ireland achieved a target which it had given itself 15 years to reach.

However, this development comes at a price. The scale of the investment and ongoing maintenance of modern high-tech systems operating to extremely high environmental standards must be reflected in charges levied, whether by public or private sector operators. The setting of such charges is a matter for individual local authorities or private operators, subject to the national policy context set by the Government. It has been the policy of successive Governments that these charges should take account of the polluter pays principle, in line with EU and wider international best practice. In other words, charges for waste services should reflect the real costs of providing them and should be paid by those who generate the waste. The Oireachtas included an explicit provision to that effect in the Waste Management Act 1996. The past number of years has seen a switch to use-based charges, such as pay by weight or bin tags. This is intended to reward those who generate least waste and who are most active in recycling. Obviously, the precise charging mechanism in any given area depends on local circumstances and costs and the technology which is chosen.

Every local authority has the power to make a waiver scheme where it is the service provider. Where it is not the service provider, it has the power to make appropriate arrangements with the private sector. In this way, local solutions can be tailored to local circumstances with proper application of the subsidiarity principle. Ideally, any such arrangement should not be a blanket waiver but should seek to reflect the polluter pays principle and incorporate an incentive to recycle waste. Most of the waiver schemes already introduced, particularly in local authority areas, tend to be blanket waiver schemes. If one qualified, one paid nothing and if one did not qualify, one paid everything. That has begun to change during recent years.

From the surveys we carried out we see that in practice, where the local authority provides the service directly, waiver schemes are available but where services are provided by private collectors, waiver schemes are not available. However, local authorities have the power under existing provisions to make special arrangements in the case of hardship if they consider it necessary. Some local authorities do so, although on an extremely limited scale.

Waste management was the subject of a special initiative under Sustaining Progress. In that context, my Department worked with the Department of Social and Family Affairs to see whether we could identify any scope to provide assistance towards waste collection charges within the income support system. The social partners made a number of calls for such a scheme. However, the Department did not feel this was the appropriate course to take. It felt that waste charges arrangements and waivers must be tailored to local circumstances whereas social income support schemes are national schemes and one-size-fits-all throughout the country.

Waste charges, waste charging arrangements and waivers have to be tailored to meet local circumstances, whereas social income support schemes are national. As there is a one-size-fits-all approach to such schemes, it was felt they could not provide a solution.

We made some progress in the context of the special initiative. During the discussions with the social partners it was put to us that paying the waste charge in a lump sum presented a particular difficulty for people on low incomes. It was suggested access to a pay-as-you-go type arrangement such as the bags or tags available in some areas would help to address this difficulty. We wrote to all local authorities asking, as opposed to directing, them — ultimately they have core responsibility — to request private household waste collectors to provide customers with the option of making smaller payments more frequently.

One further development has the potential to be very relevant and may provide a solution to the problems identified. The Minister is reviewing the overall regulation of the waste sector and recently published a consultation paper to advance this process. Stakeholders and the general public have been invited to make submissions on whether a regulator is needed for the sector. In that context, I am referring to an economic regulator. The Environmental Protection Agency looks after licensing and all operators in the waste business must meet various environmental standards. However, there is not currently economic regulation of the sector.

The question to be answered is whether there is a need for an economic regulator. If so, we must decide what type or model would be appropriate and what powers a regulator should be given. Among the possible options discussed in the consultation paper is the power to impose a public service obligation, a feature of regulation in other sectors. Effectively, contractors are required to operate a cross-subsidisation system in order that services can be provided where it would not otherwise be economically feasible to do so. It could be argued that local authorities which provide waivers for low income groups in respect of waste charges are effectively operating such a system. In that context, if there was an economic regulator of the waste sector, he or she might have the power to impose a requirement on all collectors, whether public or private, to put cross-subsidisation schemes in place to meet the needs of local groups. The consultation process is taking place; 6 October is the closing date for receipt of submissions. The Minister will examine the submissions made and decide what policy proposals he should present to the Government.

In summary, central government has never taken on the role of determining operational matters with regard to waste management. Waste collection is one of the oldest services provided by local authorities. The Government expressed the view, in the debate to which I referred, that local authorities, while working to national and EU environmental standards, should be free to tailor services to meet local needs. In that context, there should be a local approach to determining charges and any waivers in respect of same. Waivers are generally available to low income groups where a local authority provides the waste collection service, but only very limited arrangements in cases of hardship are provided for by some local authorities where the service is provided by private collectors. In the consultation paper on the possible regulation of the sector the idea of a public service obligation which could offer a way forward on the issue is discussed.

That concludes my presentation. Within the constraints under which all public servants operate when they appear before a committee in not commenting on the merits, or otherwise, of Government policy, I will be happy to answer questions.

I thank Mr. O'Mahony for his presentation.

I welcome Mr. O'Mahony. He finished very well and, like a typical civil servant, has himself well covered. At the end of the day, he is the person who will be advising the Minister and telling him what to do.

This issue was put on the agenda because of the level of hardship encountered and concern expressed. Many elderly people are finding it very difficult to pay their waste charges from their social welfare pension. In this respect, some local authorities are very good, while others are very bad. Similar issues arise in the area of waste management, although that is a matter for a different committee. A householder in Dublin may have three bins, while householders in some parts of the country have none. The super rich, who will be attending the Ryder Cup this week, pay no taxes to the State, yet their refuse is collected every week from their big homes. The poorest and the most vulnerable are forced to pay for waste collection because of the lack of a waiver system.

Mr. O'Mahony claims the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has no direct say in the way local authorities conduct their business but has responsibility for waste management not been handed over to county managers? Local authority members no longer decide waste charges because that is now a managerial function. These county managers hold weekly meetings with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in order to carry out Government policies but a waiver system does not seem to form part of those policies.

Elderly people are facing hardship because they cannot afford to pay charges in a lump sum and they are often forced to deal with the private sector. Attempts were made in my county to hand responsibility for waste collection to the private sector. I am not sure what happened as a result, although the fact that the Competition Authority raided the offices of the local authority as well as a number of houses in the county suggests that something went wrong. It is not acceptable that increases in waste management charges have caused hardship for the poorest in society, such as those in receipt of social welfare payments, pensions or on low incomes. We must develop an active policy rather than leave the matter to local authorities, which will merely attempt to maximise revenue without giving elected representatives any say in the matter.

In my county, those in receipt of non-contributory pensions are considered for a portion of a waiver but those on contributory pensions are not, even though there is not much difference between the two pensions. In effect, the policy disallows help to people who have worked all their lives and have paid their taxes, whereas others who have not contributed towards their pensions are being looked after. Mr. O'Mahony has to discuss this matter with the Minister and the Department of Social and Family Affairs. Free schemes have been introduced for television licences, electricity and fuel, and similar provisions will have to be introduced in respect of waste management. People on low incomes cannot be expected to pay this type of stealth tax. The burden of waste charges will only increase in the future. Elderly people will be burned to death because they will start burning waste instead of putting it out for collection. These people have contributed to the State and are entitled to support.

The Department of Social and Family Affairs spent more than €266 million on consultants' reports and advertising. The money being wasted is a public scandal, given that poor people earning €185 per week are expected to pay €300 or €400 per year on waste collection. We have to address that matter. This week, the Progressive Democrats proposed the abolition of stamp duty so their friends and families can buy a fifth house, yet poor people who are reliant on social welfare have to pay the taxes which should be levied on the wealthy. A scheme must be worked out with the Department of Social and Family Affairs. I will try to deal with this because it is all related. If more of these people paid their taxes to the State the poorer people would not have to pay refuse charges.

Mr. O'Mahony may not be able to comment on some of the Deputy's points.

I am glad we are not making political speeches. Did we agree on that?

Protect these people in the parliamentary party.

The Deputy can depend on me.

No cross-party fire at this meeting.

Mr. O’Mahony

I will respond in so far as I can, bearing in mind that I do not think I have myself well covered. The Oireachtas has constrained me in terms of the compellability of witnesses. The Chairman appreciates that.

I do appreciate that.

Mr. O’Mahony

I will, of course, bring all of Deputy Ring's points to the attention of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The argument he makes is for a change in policy. All I can do in a case like this is present the argument and the full transcripts to the Minister so he will see all of the points the Deputy made.

On waste management in general there are areas without bins, presumably, because collection from such areas is not considered economically viable. The public service obligation, if it were to become a reality, would not just encompass the idea of looking after waivers and low income groups. One receives an ESB connection regardless of the cost of bringing it to an individual because of the public service obligation. A similar provision could apply in the case of waste management.

We agree with the position taken on backyard burning. This is an issue people are only beginning to wake up to and there are large parts of the country, urban and rural, where people do not understand that it is highly dangerous and illegal. The last thing the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the Government or anyone would like to see is a widespread recourse to the burning of rubbish in backyards. Government policy is that residual waste should be burned to generate energy in controlled environmental circumstances. This is another debate that is probably best avoided today.

This is an Executive function. This has changed several times in legislation. In the early part of this decade the Oireachtas passed legislation handing all responsibility for charges and related issues back to the managers. It is the managers' responsibility. It is still an issue determined at local, not national, level.

The only overall answer I can give is that we will bring everything that has been said back to the Minister.

I took out this document last night to try to go through it. After 30 seconds I cast it aside because I felt it did not deal with the issue. It seemed like officials of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government were merely sent in to carry out the directive of the Government and the Minister. Reference has been made here already to what the Minister said in a Dáil debate on this subject in February 2005. I know from my contact and listening to contributions on the subject in the Dáil on those two evenings that many colleagues here expressed in a dignified manner the concerns of their constituents as outlined by Deputy Ring and myself.

I also know the hardship that has been caused to people who cannot afford to pay. While one may refer to figures and the decision of the Dáil, many Deputies were whipped into supporting a decision they feel is wrong. It is up to us to outline the problems. We cannot escape the fact that tens of thousands of householders have refuse collection bills they simply cannot afford to pay. We are talking about pensioners, widows, social welfare dependants, workers on low wages, large families, and parents of children with special needs.

The vast majority, perhaps as many as two thirds, of local authorities have services provided by the private sector. It is all very well for the Department or the Minister to say that this is not how things were done traditionally. That is self evident; there was no need to introduce that policy because in the past most local authorities delivered the service themselves. Those services have been privatised. The Department now rightly says its philosophy is that of the polluter pays. However, the Department knows as well as I do that the charges will increase over time and things will get worse for the people Deputy Ring and I have listed. There is no point in people putting their heads in the sand. The reality is that certain people live in poverty and cannot afford these charges.

While some are as high as €750 per annum, the average annual charge for refuse collection across the country is approximately €500. There are differences in the systems used by the various local authorities, and I welcome the system that Fingal County Council applies where people are given a waiver to encourage them to engage in recycling. They will not get a waiver for 52 weeks, but they may get a 26-week one. This is the way to encourage people. The witnesses have said that the matter has been thrown back to the local authorities. However, when it suits the Minister and the senior officials within the Department they will take the decisions themselves.

We now have a timeline and have until 6 October to make submissions. An economic regulator has been proposed by the Minister. This regulator will cast aside democratically taken decisions. Under the legislation introduced by the Government, there is no democratic purpose in decision-making because the decisions are already taken by the manager. Waste charges are set by the manager in every local authority area. In many cases, the decisions are taken and signed off before the Estimates are introduced.

Mr. O'Mahony informed the committee that the responsibility lies with local councillors. That is codswallop. The Minister has already given the power to make decisions to local authority managers who, in turn, implement them. Although it suits some political parties to claim that this is not the case, it is the reality. The proposed position of an economic regulator for waste collection will have major implications. The regulator could cast aside everyone else involved and decide the charge for wage collection on an economic basis in the 38 local authorities. That would have major implications about which I am concerned.

Waiver schemes, implemented by the Department of Social and Family Affairs, are already in place for electricity, telephones and television licences. Why should the Department be involved in these? The major advantages to having a waiver scheme for refuse collection would be that it would pull matters together and regularise the situation across the State. The waiver schemes in those local authority areas in which they are already in place all vary.

I do not intend to engage in a political debate on this issue. However, there is evidence that large numbers of families in the so-called Celtic tiger economy are suffering real hardship in respect of refuse collection fees. A mechanism was proposed by the Labour Party in a Private Members' motion. Many Government backbenchers and other Members believe, even if they do not agree with the Labour Party's proposals, that there is a real case for a national waiver scheme. Rather than pushing it on to the social partners, the Minister should be brave enough to do what is right.

Mr. O’Mahony

Yes, I will communicate to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government what has been said on the proposal to change the policy and let him take a view on it. I am anxious to make clear that at no point did I say it was up to local councillors to take these decisions. I appreciate that, under the legislative framework put in place by the Oireachtas, when I say a local authority is taking a decision, I am referring to the manager acting on behalf of the——

That is not the message.

Mr. O’Mahony

The record will clearly show this and it came up in my answers to Deputy Ring's questions. I will stand over the record.

(Interruptions).

Mr. O'Mahony, without interruption. Members had the opportunity to speak.

Mr. O’Mahony

On the question of the regulator, let us be absolutely clear regarding status. A consultation document has been issued to allow anyone wishing to make a submission the opportunity to voice views not only on how the office might operate and what powers it might have but, first and foremost, on whether it would be a good thing. There have been quite a few calls for greater regulation of the sector for a range of reasons, some to do with charges and some with the relationship between local authorities and the private sector. Others were connected with situations in which local authorities compete with the private sector. Sometimes they find themselves acting as regulator and competitor, which is an awkward situation. Those issues are perhaps more for a waste management discussion.

However, there is a possible solution to the problems raised regarding low-income households in the shape of a public service obligation. The Government has not adopted a position on whether there should be a regulator, having only recently published a discussion document. If there were a regulator, it might provide a way to resolve the problem.

The Deputy described the system in Fingal, with which we are obviously familiar. We regard it as very good, since, as the Deputy said, it is not a blanket waiver. It contains the same incentives that charges have for people to recycle and use the waste collection service as little as possible and also provides assistance to those who need it. That system was obviously introduced locally. Our core point that we make in reflecting to members the Government's position as set out by the Minister in the Dáil is that local decisions are the way in which waste management issues are to be decided.

Deputies Seán Ryan and Ring raised the possible role of the social welfare system. It is true that there are several schemes in various sectors handled through a straightforward income transfer or subsidy from the Department of Social and Family Affairs. Clearly, I must allow that Department to speak for itself, since it would not be fair for me to present its arguments second-hand. However, the difficulty that it envisaged, to which I believe the Minister, Deputy Brennan, also referred in a reply to a parliamentary question, was that its schemes operate nationally. Social welfare is not organised locally, being a single, national scheme, and the Department would therefore find it difficult to make the assessments and arrangements necessary to deal with a whole myriad of different charging set-ups throughout the country. That puts on record what the Department has told us, but it would clearly not be right for me to delve deeper into another Department's position.

We will now take questions from Deputies O'Connor and Callanan.

I thank the Chair for facilitating this welcome discussion. I have listened carefully to my two esteemed colleagues, who make fair points. Like everyone else, they are entitled to their interpretation of political history. That is only fair, but I would like to say that I was appointed in 1994 by the then Taoiseach, Mr. John Bruton — a good man — to the Devolution Commission. Very strong cross-party views were aired on the devolution of powers to local authorities. On a morning such as this, we must remember where it originated. It will not change overnight again.

Within the next 250 days or so, there will be a general election, and we will have a great many discussions such as this, with many political points made. We are all entitled to our politics and to adopt political stances, but it is important that we also remember that we are trying to represent our communities. It does not matter what badge we wear; the same people come to our clinics and ring our offices. We are all entitled to make points, and I hope that, under the present Chairman, the approach taken by the committee over the years will continue for as long as possible, allowing us to achieve something on these issues.

Like everyone else I have concerns about the system. Even those who have been telling us otherwise have been whipped into line in different places and many things have happened in that regard. However, that is a whole different debate. What we try to do at this level is deal with the issues as we see them. In fairness to the officials, whom I want to welcome, they have listened to us and told us they will go back to the Minister. I do not want to make a political point, but the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, has demonstrated that he has a progressive approach to many of these questions. Members might not agree with everything he does but he does his job. Like many of us here he has come from ground level, served on local authorities and has listened.

I have difficulties, as I have expressed many times, as regards the waiver scheme. I am not going to make a political point as regards who is in control of the councils, because it is a fact that different groups are in control.

It does not make any difference.

It does, because they are entitled to——

Mr. O'Mahony has just talked about the legislation.

Deputy O'Connor, without interruption.

As I am not as strong a personality as my colleague, I need some protection when I am being heckled. I have difficulties with the waiver schemes in South Dublin County Council. I have made the point that the interpretation can be very difficult to understand. I met people recently on €280 a week, for example, who cannot get the waiver because they are paying a small amount of tax on a pension. It is a nonsense and the Minister and his Department should understand that there should be some degree of conformity. Let us understand there is a problem with this system and it is being interpreted in different ways throughout the country and needs to be looked at. There will always be demand.

I was glad to hear the way Deputy Ryan listed off those free schemes, most of which were introduced by Fianna Fáil Ministers. He is right to highlight that and I appreciate the point he makes. We must continue to do that and I hope the budget this year will take account of the various points that are being brought up continuously at this committee, where largely, the issues that are of concern to people are raised in a non-political manner. I hope we will continue to do that. There will be other demands, so let us try to do this as much as possible.

The officials here today should accept that there is a problem and I do not believe they are denying this. It is a matter of trying to get the message across that some type of general system should operate throughout the country, whereby the waiver scheme can be reviewed to ensure it caters for as many families as possible. I am not championing South Dublin County Council more than any other local authority except to say it is a nonsense where waiver schemes are being denied to people because they pay a small amount of tax. It is a small but very significant point, and people are being caught. At a time when we are discussing how better to look after the elderly we should be doing something about it. I wish the officials well and hope they may come back to us with a result.

I agree with many of the speakers who said there is a need for a waiver system. We have old age pensioners as well as people on disability and the unemployed who are definitely in need and there should be a waiver scheme. That is the first point I want to make. The question is whether it should be a national scheme or administered locally. In my experience over the years a local scheme in our county worked extremely well until the whole thing went private. Now we have nothing and that is the position at the moment.

I am pleased the Minister is reviewing the overall position as regards the waste sector as that is very necessary. I live in an area where there is a new landfill. I see lorries travelling to a landfill 45 miles away in another part of the county because they do not have to pay VAT, for which they are liable in the private centre. There is a good deal of messing as regards the whole system. I am in complete agreement that there should be an economic regulator to monitor the situation. What is the position regarding private concerns? Must they send a quota for it? Must they contract for it? The situation is very vague because the same people seem to collect every year and the costs continue to rise. There does not seem to be much control over the area.

The local authorities gave away the power to collect waste and that might not have been the best development. Returning waste disposal activities to local authorities should at least be examined. However, I am in favour of one line in the presentation, namely, "Among the possible powers of discussion in the paper is the power to impose a public service obligation." This is where the waiver might come into play. Grants from the Department may also be necessary. Private contractors should include waiver schemes in their contracts. It is time that something was done because it is very difficult for some people to meet the charges imposed in respect of waste collection

I look forward to the Minister and the local authorities coming up with a reasonable scheme that can be implemented by the local authorities. That is the best way to implement it. If it is decided to do it nationally through the Department of Social and Family Affairs, then the rich and the poor will be getting it and it will be difficult to separate one from the other. It is better done locally in areas such as this. What we had years ago was very near perfect. One was means tested and one received a waiver if one was entitled to it. That scheme should be brought back.

We are all singing from the same hymn sheet regarding the care of those who are below the radar and who cannot afford to pay increasing service charges. We have each served on local authorities and we remember the unanimous cry to retain local services and decisions. I fully support Deputy Callanan. Irrespective of our views on national issues, we have been discussing local democracy and the retention of decision-making at local level for a long period.

I appreciate what Mr. O'Mahony said about the changes on waste management. I hope he can clarify a couple of matters that have arisen out of the debate and from my experience in local government. I was a member of the council when the local authority provided the bin service and an excellent means-tested waiver scheme was introduced. I was also there when we took the decision to go private, but a waiver scheme was also introduced for this service that is still working. I do not doubt the sincerity of my colleagues who started this debate. We are all compassionate about the different sectors, but I fail to understand why it has not been more uniform. Why are there such great inconsistencies? Mr. O'Mahony stated that, in practice, waiver schemes are generally available where a local authority provides the service directly and that where services are provided by private collectors, local authorities have the power, under existing provisions, to make special arrangements in the case of hardship. This is not an executive function, it is rather an elected function. When the estimates are presented, the elected members can propose amendments to the service charges. Can Mr. O'Mahony clarify the position in that retard? If that is the case, why are some local authorities providing the service while others are not doing so? Is it because some managers are better than others? Is it because some managers are more compassionate than others? I am of the opinion that local councillors still retain certain rights and entitlements in respect of how the charges are imposed. Perhaps Mr. O'Mahony will clarify this point because his submission continues by stating that some local authorities, "make special arrangements in the case of hardship if they consider it necessary. Some local authorities do so, although on a very limited scale". How limited? Is it one, two, three or four? Why do some authorities do so, while others do not?

While I am repeating myself, am I correct in stating that elected representatives can propose amendments and are able to introduce and vote through waiver schemes? The non-introduction of waiver schemes on the part of local authorities has been raised by most members. While I am speaking against myself, given the apparent inconsistencies in the system's current implementation, could it be argued that the Department should step in? Arguably, if local authorities do not introduce such schemes, the Government should act by sending out yet another circular, Circular 234/576, to the county managers, as is done on a wide range of other issues, despite our semblance of having local democracy.

This issue also relates to recycling. While it may be slightly outside the scope of this discussion, when will full recycling be rolled out? At present, there seems to be some confusion in this regard and I am confused as to what I can or cannot recycle. An international symbol, namely, C, appears on a great deal of prepackaged items. However, I am informed this does not necessarily denote that the actual item will be accepted for recycling by local authority collectors. Consequently, until perhaps two years ago when I became somewhat more responsible, I was guilty on an infrequent basis of burning plastic containers in my backyard and adding to the emission of toxic fumes. I have ceased this practice, as have some of my friends. Primarily, however, this was due to the non-acceptance of such containers by the local authority's bin collections, despite what was stated on much of the packaging. Do the witnesses agree with me that their Department has a role in informing and educating the public as to what can be recycled and in encouraging more local authorities to roll out the scheme?

Inconsistencies in the application of waiver schemes and inconsistencies in the roll-out of recycling have emerged from this debate. In that context, despite my earlier remarks on local decisions being taken locally, the Government should step in if the system does not allow for this.

I welcome Mr. O'Mahony and Ms Lyons before the committee and thank them for their contribution. I will be as brief as possible. I am sure the witnesses are familiar with the Combat Poverty Agency's report, Implementing a Waiver System: Guidelines for Local Authorities, which was published in 2005. It states:

"[t]he changes to waste charging practice have had a knock-on effect on the waste collection levies being placed on households, with charges rising by 223 per cent between 1997 and 2003 [and notes] this burden has been severely felt by families in low-income bands.

The report continues by stating "the response [to this] has been sporadic and has resulted in an inequality of treatment of people in similar income bands". In general, is the percentage of increase in charges correct?

Can the witnesses explain why there are such differences in charges between local authorities, ranging from €150 to €500 per annum and perhaps more? Why do some local authorities charge so much more than others?

While Oireachtas Members do not often get insights into the highly secretive partnership agreement talks, I noted from the submission that under the Sustaining Progress partnership agreement there was a special initiative in which the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government worked with the Department of Social and Family Affairs to ascertain whether there was any scope to provide some assistance towards waste collection charges within the income support system.

However, the Department of Social and Family Affairs did not believe this was the appropriate course to take. In his presentation, Mr. O'Mahony appeared to indicate that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government identified a major problem and wanted to reach some resolution but that the Department of Social and Family Affairs said "No" and that nothing has happened in the meantime.

I note that 20 out of the 34 local authorities across the country involved in waste collection and management provide some form of waiver scheme, while 14 local authorities do not. Provision is very sporadic. Many counties, such as Carlow, Clare, Donegal, Galway, Leitrim, Limerick, Longford, Louth, Meath, north Tipperary, Roscommon and Sligo, do not provide waiver schemes. Does Mr. O'Mahony agree that people on low incomes, such as older people, find it very difficult to meet the very high charges in the absence of any relief? Could he explain why this is the case?

Mr. O'Mahony discussed an economic regulator and the public service obligation. I note that the Combat Poverty Agency suggests that the Department of Social and Family Affairs makes a fund available to alleviate poverty. Alleviating poverty is one of the Department's roles. Does Mr. O'Mahony agree that the concept behind the public service obligation is that the ordinary person will pay slightly more so that people under financial pressure can receive a reduction in cost or receive a service if they live in the countryside and that this represents another tax on the ordinary taxpayer? It would really be the job of local authorities rather than the Department.

On page 3 of his presentation, Mr. O'Mahony spoke about best practice and how the Department wished to encourage people to engage in activities such as recycling. Does Mr. O'Mahony agree that the amount of fly tipping across the country has increased considerably and that the amount of waste on our roadsides and in our rivers and woodlands has reached critical levels? Who is responsible for cleaning up this waste? It appears that in many cases, this waste is left until it becomes overgrown. If waste is dumped in an area, the area attracts more waste because it becomes known as an unofficial dump. Nobody appears to clean up this waste. Does the Department have any role in telling local authorities to get their act together and send out workers to clean up this waste? Does Mr. O'Mahony agree that if people cannot afford to pay waste charges, the alternative that is often available to them is to dump their waste? What is the Department's view about this? When does the Department envisage the consultation document being finalised. Will it be made public and, if so, when?

I will be very brief. On page 4 of his presentation, Mr. O'Mahony stated that the Department had written to local authorities asking them to request private household waste collectors in their areas to provide customers with the option of making smaller payments more frequently. Has a reply been received from the private collector?

Is Mr. O'Mahony aware this issue preoccupies the Senior Citizens Parliament, which represents the elderly citizens of this country, and the Combat Poverty Agency, an independent agency which advises the Government on how to tackle issues pertaining to poverty? Cognisance should be taken of the views of such an independent and non-political agency. The Senior Citizens Parliament sees this as critical to alleviating a burden imposed on people with fixed incomes.

Is it tantamount to widespread discrimination where people living on a road have private operators while their neighbours have local authority operators? The local authority may operate a waiver system, such as the excellent and generous system in Westmeath which takes account of income situations. Local authorities also have first-hand local knowledge through rent collectors. If management of waste services remains in the control and remit of the local authority, we will have fewer of the problems outlined by my colleagues. I am sure I reflect the views of many people. The greatest tragedy to befall the waste sector was the day it went to private collection.

Westmeath local authority now operates a hybrid system. I rejected that and made my views known. I respect the fact that Mr. O'Mahony advises the Minister and brings to his attention any points of view expressed. He knows they are not made in a partisan way but across the committee which is how we like to work. We like to leave politics outside and work together in a non-partisan way.

Mr. O'Mahony cannot but be struck by the fact that the contributions made today represent all parties elected to the Oireachtas. Is the Department concerned that a discrimination case may be taken against a local authority, in which the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government would be made party, where two people aged 75 years on the same income are treated differently? That is a source of concern for any Government, whatever its hue.

If I wore my political hat I would subscribe to the public service obligation which ensures that people living in the farthest away and most remote part of rural Ireland receive a service. It would bring some semblance of regulation to a situation where a private operator stated that unless it had ten customers on a particular boreen it would not be serviced. During the past 48 hours a strong case in point came to my attention. However, more is required. The Department must take cognisance of situations where people are on similar incomes and create a similar amount of waste.

Deputy Stanton made an important point that elderly people do not want to engage in any illegal behaviour, such as fly-tipping. Such people are very aware of their obligations but have been put in a very difficult position. If we do not provide a waste collection service and operate a level playing pitch with regard to waivers, what can we expect them to do? In a situation where people are living in remote areas and operators will not provide a collection service, how do they get rid of their waste? Will they have to resort, as Senator Mooney outlined, to burning their rubbish outdoors?

There are two issues at stake here, namely, the provision of a waste collection service for all citizens and the provision of a waiver system that is applied equally across the country. These are the challenges that must be addressed. It will not be easy but the political system will have to address them

I am aware that Mr. O'Mahony is a civil servant but I would like him to raise these two issues with the Minister, as well as the myriad of other related issues raised at today's meeting. I agree with the point he made with regard to the public service obligation addressing some of the issues that have arisen. However, I am not convinced it will address the fundamental issue of equality of treatment with regard to the provision of, and payment for, waste collection services. That is the crux of the matter and the challenge that must be addressed.

We could have a debate about returning the dual mandate and Deputy Ring can lead it.

In fairness to the Deputy——

There is no point unless they get the power back.

I will not revisit that issue with Deputy Ring but the longer the argument goes on, the more merit——

The happiest people were the county managers.

Do not blame the officials for abolishing the dual mandate.

Mr. O’Mahony

I wish to repeat the assurance I gave at the start of the meeting that everything that has been raised here will be relayed to the Minister. I note the consistency to which the Chairman drew our attention in terms of the views of committee members from different political parties. There is a dilemma to which a number of speakers referred, in terms of how one reconciles devolution, local decision-making and tailoring decisions to local circumstances with conformity, consistency and equality. That is the dilemma and it must be resolved at the political level.

A number of questions were posed during the wrap-up of contributions. Some were answered earlier while others were not. One member asked where waivers for private waste collection schemes operate and the answer is in three places at present, namely, Monaghan, Bray and Limerick city. Anywhere else where a service is entirely private, and by that I mean there is no local authority involvement whatsoever, there is no waiver arrangement in place. A question was posed regarding recycling roll-out, which is moving very quickly, but at different rates throughout the country. The money in the environment fund, which comes primarily from the levy on plastic bags, is used to provide grants for local authorities for bottle banks and other civic amenity sites. The number of such facilities has more than doubled over the past few years.

Does Mr. O'Mahony not accept that there is confusion as to what can and cannot be recycled?

Mr. O’Mahony

The issue of awareness was raised earlier. We have just finished the Race Against Waste campaign, on which €3 million was spent on establishing websites and producing leaflets and other material. A substantial amount of information is available throughout the country and every county council has an environmental awareness officer.

Some plastics can be recycled but others cannot.

Mr. O’Mahony

That is true. There are different types of plastics, some of which are not suitable for recycling. Technology may improve in this regard but, at present, it is not economically viable to recycle some plastics.

Could the Department not direct manufacturers to provide biodegradable packaging? We are not allowed to drive cars without holding driving licences. Surely, it is time to tell manufacturers to play their role. Consumers are trying to play their role, as is the Department in its own way but the third leg of the tripod seems to say "Shucks to you". Senator Mooney is correct that manufacturers should be penalised for selling plastics which are not biodegradable. Ordinary people have to pay for plastic bags. We should acknowledge the dilemma raised by Senator Mooney rather than act like ostriches. While plastic bags are thankfully no longer part of Ireland's landscape, the Department should ensure that only recyclable plastic is marketed. That might hasten the advance of technology.

Mr. O’Mahony

It would be nice if we could do that but, under European law, such decisions must be made on an EU basis.

Let us take a lead at European level.

That is not impossible.

If the EU wants us to behave as model citizens, we should take a lead on this issue.

It would be easier to act at EU level.

I am sure the Minister will be keen to take the lead on the issue.

Mr. O’Mahony

I will bring it to his attention.

Fly tipping clearly remains a significant problem. Irrespective of the existence of a waiver system, some people will engage in illegal activities. In the past, a substantial level of organised illegal dumping took place but that has largely been halted through the efforts of the Garda and the EPA. However, when illegal dumping was halted in the Republic, material was then sent across the Border. Joint action in both jurisdictions put a halt to that, with the result that the same material is now being fly-tipped. In the past year, local authorities and the EPA have turned their attention to this matter. People go through bags of waste, they find envelopes and they follow up on individuals. This is environmental crime, it is being taken seriously and a major campaign is in place to try to prevent it.

Who is responsible for cleaning it up?

Mr. O’Mahony

The local authorities.

It is not happening. On every by-road in the country one can see plastic bags of rubbish dumped from cars. Nobody is picking it up. Could Mr. O'Mahony ask someone in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to write to the local authorities and request them to clean it up. It is a disgrace. Everywhere one goes. Every by-road, every country road, scenic places, rivers, woodland. I am sorry for interrupting but I feel strongly about this. It is everywhere.

Mr. O’Mahony

I will bring that back to the Department. It would be beyond the resources of the local authorities to clean everything as soon as it appears.

The longer it is there, the more it will attract.

I would like to raise the issue of councillors' rights regarding amending managers' proposals on service and bin charges and the ability to introduce waiver schemes.

Mr. O’Mahony

My understanding of the legislation is that it is entirely an executive function, that all issues relating to waste charging, including waivers, are executive functions. Where a local authority makes arrangements with the private sector, as far as the law is concerned the local authority is providing that service. That is, therefore, also an executive function. My understanding is that it is the manager's prerogative. I will double check this with the Department and if it is not the case I will communicate with the clerk and pass the details on to the committee.

Therefore, there are three managers in this country, a shining example to their colleagues across the land, who operate exclusively private collections and have introduced waivers.

Mr. O’Mahony

There are three areas at the moment where there are exclusively private collections along with some form of support. This may be quite limited. For example, in Bray ten free bags are provided every year for those who require them. Deputy Seán Ryan described Fingal, which is not exclusively private.

Our local authority provides around 16 to 18 tags for pensioners over the course of the year. This creates an incentive for people, in order not to pay, to reduce the amount of waste they produce and put out the bin bags for collection only every second week. If they need additional tags they may buy them for around €8. Generally there is an in-built incentive in the tag system. It is weight related and it offers uniformity. Managers have many powers and it would be a pity if they had total power regarding the waiver system. If there are issues in this regard I am sure Mr. O'Mahony will address them.

I do not favour the regulator. We have an energy regulator who has crucified the old in this country with charges on gas and fuel. Appointing a regulator takes responsibility from the managers and the Minister and allows them to say "the regulator did that". There must be common sense applied on this issue. The State always provided this service, the State has a part to play in this service and the State has a duty to taxpayers to provide this service. I hope my colleagues in Fianna Fáil support me in opposing the creation of a regulator. Regulators in this country mean jobs for the boys and girls. When one writes to them one finds they have no powers or they raise charges. We have had enough of regulators and enough of jobs for the boys and girls.

That is another message upon which I cannot expect Mr. O'Mahony to comment. I would like to thank Mr. O'Mahony and Ms Lyons for appearing here today and for dealing with the issues within their areas of competence. We realise there are demarcation zones around such areas.

Could I have a reply to the question I raised?

Mr. O’Mahony

I will have to check that. We would have asked the local authorities to put this system in place. I am not sure if we have any information.

Perhaps Mr. O'Mahony could come back to us with that information.

Mr. O’Mahony

We will send a report on that issue to the committee.

Have we got a mechanism in place where important issues like this can be raised in the coming months? Bearing in mind that we all will be terribly busy at committee level, will we be able to deal with the responses?

Issues have been raised about which departmental officials would not have information readily at hand. In my experience, the Department usually contacts the clerk within a week and he furnishes members with the relevant information.

Will we have the opportunity to revisit this if we so wish?

Yes, hopefully we will. This is an issue that will not go away. There are others issues that disappear over time. I have a funny feeling this one will not disappear, particularly in the context of new assessments to be carried out by the Minister, where submissions will be made, where an economic regulator is to be introduced, and where public service obligations are being examined. We will revisit this topic. We will have to discuss with officials from the Department of Social and Family Affairs how a system similar to the household benefits package could be devised to incorporate this. Perhaps a pensioner could receive a voucher for €100 or €200 as part of a waiver system. Surely we should be able to devise something of that nature. I am not setting a level, rather I am thinking aloud about how this might work.

I sincerely thank the witnesses for meeting us, helping us and being so patient with us.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.30 p.m. and adjourned at 1.45 p.m. sine die.
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