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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Oct 2008

Fuel Poverty: Discussion with Age Action Ireland.

I welcome Mr. Robin Webster, chief executive, Mr. Eamon Timmins, head of advocacy and communications, and Ms Emer Begley, policy officer — social inclusion, from Age Action Ireland.

Before we begin, I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but, unfortunately, this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

It is a peculiar day and no disrespect is intended as far as attendance is concerned. We warmly welcome the delegation which has issues to raise on this significant morning.

Mr. Robin Webster

I thank the Vice Chairman, Deputies and Senators for the invitation to Age Action to address what is a critically important issue, namely, fuel poverty and older people. We might have said something different two days ago.

Fuel poverty is a huge issue not only for Age Action but, most particularly, for older people at risk. Coming in the wake of yesterday's budget, this morning's discussion is even more relevant. It is not possible to differentiate payments for fuel from general income from a pension. Therefore, the abolition of the automatic entitlement to the over 70s medical card, the 1% income levy, the 7% pension increase and the €2 increase in the fuel allowance all have a huge impact on people's ability to keep their homes warm this winter. For many pensioners, the challenge of being able to afford to heat their homes is more difficult after yesterday's budget.

This is a major issue for older people as well as for Age Action. Older people rarely complain but instead they try to cope by going to bed earlier to cut their heating bills. Others sit in shopping centres and libraries to keep warm. However, what is even more alarming are the reports that older people are talking about getting by by cutting back on food or fuel, or both. Every year an additional 1,500 to 2,000 older people die in winter compared with summer. Most of these deaths are due to health problems such as respiratory illness or cardiovascular disease — cold-related illness — some of which could be avoided if there was sufficient heat in older people's homes.

In September we launched a petition on our website and used a billboard poster in Dublin donated by Ocean Advertising to promote fuel poverty as an issue. It featured a pair of frost bitten feet and the headline, set in a musical score style, read: "Jack Frost nipping at their toes". We feared this might upset older people but as it turned out, nobody voiced concerns at the billboard. Although the poster was only on one site in a Dublin suburb, word spread and over 1,600 people signed the petition. This petition was submitted to Deputy Máire Hoctor, the Minister of State with responsibility for older people, on 1 October. There is clearly growing public support for action to prevent fuel poverty and these unnecessary deaths.

Fuel poverty at its most basic is the inability to heat a home to an adequate temperature because of a low income and poor housing. Putting it another way, a household is fuel poor when it must spend more than 10% of its income on fuel to maintain an adequate level of warmth. By this measure, the Institute of Public Health, which I believe made a presentation to the committee earlier in the year, estimates that more than 145,000, or 19%, of households in Ireland experience fuel poverty. Low-income households depend on more expensive fuels than high income ones. The Society of St. Vincent de Paul has found that its local conferences can expect to spend over 50% of their total income on fuel-related costs and it estimates that almost 78% of older people are living in fuel poverty. These are huge figures.

In Ireland, an estimated 227,000 households experience some form of fuel poverty. Of these, 62,000, or just under 5% of all households, experience persistent fuel poverty and a further 165,000, or almost 13% of households, experience intermittent fuel poverty.

The situation is exacerbated by the types of fuels older households use. The ESRI claims it is still predominately home heating oil and it showed that one quarter of all older people did not have central heating compared with 10% of all households. Table 1 in the briefing note circulated gives a breakdown of the types of fuels used by older people.

For 17% of Irish households vulnerable to fuel poverty, the sudden rise in the price of fuel and food is adding a financial burden this winter. Compared with the annual rate of inflation of approximately 4.3%, there have been greater increases in the prices of both food and fuel in the past 12 months ending this September.

The briefing note circulated includes a table setting out the increases in the prices of a variety of foods and fuels. For example, the price of bread is up 16.7%, milk is up 25.7% and tea is up 6.8%. As for fuels, liquid fuels are up 34%, natural gas is up 10.1% and electricity is up 11.2%, with further price rises due at the beginning of next year.

The Government's current allowances for electricity and gas are welcome but there is concern that some people are not using all their allowances. The Government should take action to tackle fuel poverty by promoting greater use of these allowances and a range of other measures to promote energy efficiency.

Turning to the question of who is at risk. Those most affected by housing energy inefficiencies tend to be the most vulnerable in society, thus linking them to poorer health and higher morbidity and mortality. Sustainable Energy Ireland reported that the highest level of fuel poverty occurred in households without dependent children, single person households, people living in dwellings built between 1940 and 1979, owner-occupier households and people on annual incomes lower than €8,888. Many older people are affected by more than one of these factors.

The second group most at risk of fuel poverty in Ireland comprises lone male pensioners, of whom 11%, or 3,700, experience fuel poverty. The proportion is lower for lone female pensioners, 7.8%, but the number, 4,600, is higher. A total of 17.4%, or 13,300, of households dependent on social welfare payments, including the majority of State pensioners, are at risk of fuel poverty.

The type of household dwelling is also a factor, with those living in semi-detached or terraced houses more likely to experience fuel poverty compared with those in other types of dwelling, according to a European survey. Houses built between 1940 and 1979 have been identified as particularly at risk of fuel poverty. The Society of St. Vincent de Paul found that 50% of those experiencing fuel poverty lived in older homes and this includes a large proportion of older people. Older houses can be more prone to damp and structural problems and require greater maintenance. A higher proportion of older people are also homeowners, 93% of older couples and 81% of older people living alone. A higher recorded number of owner-occupiers experience fuel poverty. Some 6.6% of older people are local authority tenants and fewer than 3% are private tenants.

The most serious impact of fuel poverty for older people is the excess of deaths in winter. Unfortunately, there is a paucity of information on the extent of seasonal mortality in Ireland. This is an area which requires urgent attention and further research. We know, based on the figures from the 1990s, that there are between 1,500 and 2,000 excess winter deaths each year. Research shows that despite a relatively mild winter, we experience one of the highest variations in seasonal mortality in Europe, ranking behind colder northern European countries such as Denmark and Luxembourg. As part of a strategy to eliminate the number of unnecessary winter deaths, yearly monitoring of excess winter deaths needs to be carried out to target resources at those groups most at risk.

The documentation we supplied includes a table indicating the percentage of winter deaths over non-winter deaths for the period from 1988 to 1997. Other research estimated that 50% of cardiovascular disease and 57% of respiratory disease in Ireland is associated with poor housing. These illnesses accounted for 44% of all deaths during the period 1988 to 1997.

Where do we go from here? Tackling excess winter deaths and fuel poverty means being fuel efficient. This does not just relate to insulating homes, but also ensuring that all homes have adequate central heating systems. Currently, there are a number of energy efficient programmes available, such as the warmer homes scheme, the remedial works scheme for local authority rented dwellings, and housing aid for older people, administered by the HSE until last year, but now run by the local authorities.

Of the 227,000 households experiencing some form of fuel poverty, 3,700 have availed of the SEI warm home scheme in 11 counties at a cost of €4.3 million. We need to ensure that these schemes are available equitably, irrespective of where a person lives, and that they are adequately funded. It is acknowledged that heating a thermally inefficient home is a poor investment. Therefore, a long-term strategy is needed to improve energy efficiency in all older people's homes.

The media focus should be on the needs of the many older people at risk of fuel poverty this winter. Prior to yesterday's budget, the current fuel allowance of €18 covered 42% of the weekly cost of fuel, based on the 2008 Vincentian partnership figures for the minimum essential budget. To bring this weekly payment to an acceptable 70% of the weekly cost of fuel, which we recommend, would require an increase of €11.66 per week, bringing the payment to €29.66 or €30 per week. This would cost €108 million annually, based on an estimate for the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. A similar scheme operating in the UK is the cold-winter payment, which is a once-off payment of £25 sterling when the average temperature where a person lives falls to 0° Celsius or below for seven consecutive days.

Another issue relating to fuel poverty is the proposed carbon tax. This tax is intended to reduce energy related CO2 emissions. It is expected that low income households will, proportionately, be most penalised by this tax as they tend to use more carbon intensive fuels and inefficient heating systems. The Combat Poverty Agency has put forward the suggestion that revenue raised from the introduction of a carbon tax should be used to tackle fuel poverty by redistributing resources towards low-income households. We would also like to see a one-off payment for older people to cushion them from the one-off cost of switching to low-energy light bulbs. While there are savings in the long run, the initial investment is considerable for those on a fixed low income.

Ireland does not have a fuel poverty strategy and, therefore, we do not have set targets to tackle fuel poverty. To compare with other countries, England aims to end fuel poverty in vulnerable households by 2010 and in all households by 2016. Scotland hopes to eliminate fuel poverty by 2016. The Welsh hope to eliminate fuel poverty in vulnerable households by 2010 and in all households by 2018. In Northern Ireland, the aim is to eliminate fuel poverty within vulnerable households by 2010 and all households by 2016.

I would ask Mr. Webster to facilitate the committee. Some members of the committee, including the Labour Party spokesperson, need to leave. I do not wish to cut Mr. Webster short, but will he allow some members make contributions now and we can then come back to him?

Mr. Robin Webster

Certainly.

I am anxious to facilitate everybody, if that is all right.

Mr. Robin Webster

We are extremely flexible.

I apologise for the pressure under which we find ourselves.

I thank the Vice Chairman and Mr. Webster for the opportunity to contribute. It is difficult to know what to say. I cannot disagree with anything Mr. Webster has said in his presentation. Age Action has done significant work in the area over recent years. I accept its findings and those of the other agencies working in the area. Any questions I have are not for Age Action but for other people in this room, those who belong to Government parties. I would have to ask what they have done to make this issue a priority. As Mr. Webster said, the €2 extra provided in the budget was derisory. It would not even buy half a bale of briquettes.

The situation is a scandal. The Government had choices with regard to where the axe would fall, but it chose to hit vulnerable, elderly people who cannot afford to heat their homes. It had other options and could have made savings on tax breaks available for high rollers and high earners. For example, landlords receive tax breaks of above €500 million per year, but these were not touched in the budget. High earners can have pension funds of €5.7 million, but these were not touched. The Minister came out with claptrap about patriotism yesterday, but his budget was the most unpatriotic budget one could imagine. It hit the weakest in society and let the rich off scot free. Fianna Fáil has always done the same. I sympathise with the delegations. They must be tearing their hair out today because the Government has been so negligent in this area and has ignored the work they have been doing for years.

I accept the point made with regard to carbon taxes. This committee should pursue the issue with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. There is an urgent need for a strategy on fuel poverty. The responsibility for this lies not just with the Minister for Social and Family Affairs but with others also. However, the predominant responsibility yesterday was that of the Minister for Finance. He had the opportunity to do something about it but failed utterly. All I can do is to share the disgust of the delegates.

I do not feel sympathy for agencies or charities, however good the work they do. My sympathy lies with the people on the ground who may be suffering. My sympathy is not with Age Action Ireland, although it does fantastic work. It is with the people. That is what we must think about all the time.

That is what I said. I said I share——

No, the Deputy said she felt sorry for Age Action Ireland.

I share its disgust.

That is what the Deputy said lately——

Its disgust must be felt on behalf of the people it serves.

I did not hear anyone use the word "disgust".

Let us move ahead.

The Deputy said she shared the disgust of the delegation.

Did the members of the delegation say they were disgusted?

I said they must be.

No, she said she shared their disgust.

Yes. I said I shared their disgust.

With respect, I did not hear them say that.

Is the Deputy not disgusted?

The Deputy said she shared their disgust.

No. We are not, actually.

Are they not disgusted?

If the Deputy knew the meaning of that word, she would not use it. It is a word we use every day.

There has been a substantial increase in the fuel allowance — €2 more than the previous amount of €18, plus an extra two weeks of payments per year. This will not cover all costs, but choices have to be made and we have done so. There has been a €7 increase in the pension. It can be worked out that the increase in fuel costs is 20%. The increases will not match what the delegates say is needed. However, we must recognise that the price of a barrel of oil has gone down and that this will have an impact. It is still high — probably higher than this time last year — but it is going down, we hope. We will have to work with other agencies and Government bodies to make sure fuel companies pass on the decrease to the customer. It is not just a matter of the Government giving allowances, although that is important. We must work towards reducing inflation, much of which is outside our control. I commend what the Government has done this week and what it has done for pensioners in general in the last ten years. The old age pension is one of the highest in Europe, which nobody can take away from the Government, including Deputy Shortall. With all the benefits they receive, pensioners in Ireland are far better off than those in the United Kingdom. There are no two ways about it.

I would like to see Deputy Byrne live on it.

We listened to Deputy Shortall. Perhaps she could show the same respect.

In fairness to Deputy Shortall——

Yes — I have to go also — but we listened to what she had to say with respect and did not interrupt her.

The issue of fuel is a serious one. It has come up before at this committee and is something we will have to consider seriously again. The Government has done what it can within the means we have. If we do not have the money, we simply cannot do it. We have increased taxes across the board for persons earning less than €100,000 and by 2% for those earning more than this. There is a burden falling on the higher paid. The limit on pension contributions has also been significantly decreased, while the PRSI ceiling has been raised. There is a burden to be assumed by those who are earning which is going to be used to pay for pensions.

That is great if one is earning more than €100,000.

I will give Senator McFadden a chance.

If the Senator is calling for an even higher tax rate, that is not what her party leader in the Dáil, Deputy Kenny, is saying.

Choices have to be made. We have made good choices and will continue to do so. We have a really good pension system, although it is not perfect. Certainly, fuel poverty is an issue which we all come across. Within the resources available to the Government, we have done a good job.

My comments at the start were not directed at the representatives of Age Action Ireland but at Deputy Shortall. Age Action Ireland does great work, although I do not agree with it on all the issues it raises. It is important to challenge us all the time on these issues and see where we can do better. I thank the representatives for coming before the committee and appreciate what they are saying.

I call Senator McFadden. I will be happy to protect her.

I thank the Vice Chairman. I do not feel any need to personalise my comments.

This has not been a good budget for the elderly. In fact, it is a harsh, cruel budget. Although we are discussing the issue of fuel poverty, we do not even have a fuel poverty strategy, as Mr. Webster said. He was completely right when he said it was a combination of all the stealth taxes and cutbacks that would affect people who must choose whether to eat or keep warm. That is the bottom line. I cannot see how the Government can stand over the €2 increase in the fuel allowance.

Mr. Webster stated there was a lack of research on the number who die due to fuel poverty. Who would carry out this research? Is it something that should be done by the Department? If not, whom would he consider, now that the Combat Poverty Agency has lost its independent voice and is to be brought into the Department of Social and Family Affairs? Who should carry out this worthwhile independent research?

Local authorities have been given the responsibility of administering the housing aid for the elderly scheme. We were informed by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Lenihan, that there would be a 5% cut in local government funding. I have been making representations about disabled persons' and essential repairs grants, as the money ran out halfway through the year. Do the delegates have fears about how local authorities will be able to provide housing aid for the elderly? The HSE had been doing a good and efficient job and it should never have been taken away from it. I would like the representatives to comment on this.

I am worried about some old people who have contacted my office. They talk about going to bed early, as Mr. Webster mentioned, because they cannot afford to turn on the heating. These are people who have worked all their lives and paid taxes. We are attacking elderly people in the budget. Shame on us. I am afraid I must personalise matters a little. Deputy Byrne stated the income levy was across the board and would be 2% for those earning more than €100,000. Why have we not put a levy on bankers? If we had done that in the budget, the elderly would not be the ones to bear the brunt. A €2 increase is absolutely outrageous.

I apologise for being late; I was chairing another meeting.

I compliment Age Action Ireland on its work. In my constituency there are many groups and individuals who interact with the organisation on a regular basis and I have seen at first hand the work it does. Unfortunately, I missed the debate on the current situation, although I listened to some of the comments made. I will not get into a debate about what we should be but are not doing. Everybody accepts we have made progress in recent years. Anybody over the age of 65 years to whom I speak on a regular basis will accept that things have got better for them in terms of pensions and their lifestyles in general.

On the issue of fuel, some of the measures taken in recent years, including in particular the extension of fuel allowance payments, are probably more beneficial in the long run than increasing the amount given to recipients, particularly in view of the change in climate we have experienced. In some cases people are coming to us in June and July because they have problems keeping heat in their houses, especially if they have medical conditions. I have looked at Mr. Webster's presentation and we will do anything we can to assist. I have no hesitation in saying we have always supported that section of society — those who are vulnerable and face challenges in their day-to-day lives. We will provide support in any way we can.

I must say to Mr. Webster that this is a politically charged day, about which we need not argue. However, I emphasise, particularly with regard to what I said about the absence of some of my colleagues, that a number of members have other commitments. I hope Mr. Webster and his colleagues would not think any disrespect was being shown to Age Action Ireland. As they heard from other colleagues of all parties, there are difficulties in this regard, for which I apologise. It is important that we have them before the committee and it is particularly significant that they have come this morning. Perhaps that is what has generated the tone of the debate, which is fair enough in a democracy. The representatives are particularly welcome and I assure them on my own behalf and that of all my colleagues, including the Chairman, that what they say will be taken into account, which I intend to confirm to them at the end of the meeting. It is unfortunate that we are all under pressure this morning, but that is the way it has had to be. I apologise again.

The delegation has listened to the debate and I welcome any further comments on any of the questions.

Mr. Robin Webster

I thank the Vice Chairman and we understand the situation. I will make one or two comments on the issues raised, and then my colleagues may want to give more detailed comments.

The long-term vision of Age Action Ireland is to make Ireland the best place in the world to grow older. We have to be ambitious. We are not making a special plea for older people. We think older people are just as important as any other age group. They are as important, not less.

Older people are the fastest growing segment of the population. What is particularly true, and adds urgency to our debate, is that the number of people over 80 is growing faster than those over 65. If we are discussing improving the quality of life of people over 80, we have not much time. That is the urgency of this situation.

We were struck by the fact that neighbouring countries have a fuel poverty strategy and clear targets. Our point today is that it is about time we had these too. We could then discuss the resources available and where those resources might be targeted, making sure that the people most at risk benefit the most. That is what we have tried to describe.

A number of issues have been raised. Senator McFadden raised the issue of research. There are a growing number of institutions taking responsibility for research on ageing, and we welcome that very much. Some of the institutions involved include the ESRI, and we mentioned its work, Trinity College and NUI, Galway. There is a cross-Border establishment, funded by Atlantic Philanthropies, CARDI, which is doing research in the North and South, and the comparisons will be useful. There are a number of research institutions that have the capacity and the ability to do this. If funds can be allocated to provide this basic data for us to plan a fuel poverty strategy, that is critically important.

There have been reports of difficulties in the transfer of responsibility for housing aid from the HSE to local authorities, and they have not yet been ironed out. It is a critical service that ought to be available on the same basis throughout the country. There are a variety of impacts in different parts of the country. There is something of a geographical lottery and we are unhappy about that. If there was a fuel poverty strategy, surely the Government would want to make sure the benefits would be equally available to people throughout the country. That is very important.

People are worried. We are disappointed. We put forward our pre-budget submission and the Government decided its priorities lay elsewhere. We understand that. We again stress the importance of improving the quality of life of older people. That is what we are here for and we will continue to work with the Government and Departments to improve the services available for older people. One critical issue is that a fuel poverty strategy would have to involve all Government Departments; it could not be left to one or two. A comprehensive, holistic approach to fuel poverty is very important, including the needs of older people most at risk.

Mr. Eamon Timmins

We know the sensitivities the day after the budget. Just to reiterate what Mr. Webster has said, the one message we wanted to get out of this meeting is the need for a national fuel poverty strategy. We do not hear anybody speaking against it; we are not aware of any resistance to it. There is probably not enough awareness of the need for such a strategy. What we are trying to highlight today is the need for research to establish the extent of the problem and a concerted effort, with an holistic approach using fuel suppliers, income and insulation, like other countries have done.

It should be a question of national shame that we have higher rates of winter mortality than colder countries. This fact comes down to basic factors such as insulation in houses. We asked for other, simpler things. Perhaps they will be introduced faster than a fuel poverty strategy. There are other ways of paying the allowance than is currently the case. The fuel allowance is currently €18 a week between October and April, or €20 a week from January. The problem is that a third of older people have home heating oil. It is the most common form of central heating used by older people. One cannot buy home heating oil by the bucket load at €18 a week. We were looking for the Government to examine the way it pays the allowance, and to pay it in two lump sums, in October and January, to enable people to at least fill a tank of oil. There seemed to be philosophical reasons that is not done. The way in which people are supported is not a practical way to enable them to heat their home. We ask the Government to look at that issue.

People will say their mother or father is not cold. The people we are talking about constitute a subset of older people. They are invariably living alone. They have a disability or a health problem which makes them housebound or restricts their mobility. People are living in old and poorly-insulated houses. We have looked for the living alone allowance to be revisited; it is a targeted measure for older people, and we urge the Government to revisit it to address the issue of people living alone. There are 121,000 pensioners living alone, and because they have one income coming into the house instead of two, the burden of heating and lighting a home is much greater. If people want to look at some facts and figures, they should look at the website www.budgeting.ie. It is run by the Vincentian Partnership for Social Justice which has done tremendous research on what it costs the average pensioner to live. There are two cases, a pensioner couple and an older lady living alone. It clearly highlights why it is much more expensive for people living alone to heat a house.

We need a fuel poverty strategy. We will never address the issue by means of the fuel allowance alone. We urge all-party support for a fuel poverty strategy.

Ms Emer Begley

I will expand on what Mr. Webster said, and answer Senator McFadden's question on research. There are a growing number of research and policy centres that would be well placed to carry out evaluations of any programmes or schemes that are introduced to address fuel poverty. It is important to have continual monitoring of programmes and schemes.

Regarding excess winter mortality, we need this to be examined annually. It is up to Government Departments to monitor this every year and find out if we are tackling the problem. A fuel strategy would identify what Department would take responsibility for doing that.

In view of the fact that there are so few of us here, I propose we have this on the agenda for the next meeting, and with the indulgence of my colleague, propose we pursue the issue of a fuel poverty strategy. I am sure there is all-party agreement.

The Senator may allow me to put on record a matter I was to bring to the attention of the meeting and the delegation. In thanking the delegation, I wanted to make the point that they have come on a significant morning. The committee has already issued recommendations to the relevant Ministers as follows:

That the Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs recommends that the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney, and Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Mary Hanafin establish an interdepartmental group as a matter of urgency to oversee the successful implementation of a national strategy for fuel poverty.

The correspondence received indicates that the relevant Departments are working together as part of an interdepartmental group to develop such a national strategy.

Organisations such as Age Action Ireland are a valuable source of practical advice and assistance in developing national policy on this issue. I implore Ministers and their departmental officials to take on board the points made by Age Action Ireland so convincingly and supported by my colleagues. I will list the item for our next private meeting when we will review it.

Facts and figures were a big part of proceedings today and yesterday. In reading a report one identifies the real need to have an organisation such as Age Action Ireland to give us the figures we miss. The seasonal expression of Jack Frost nipping at one's toes rings a bell. My mother is 88 years of age and unwell. All relevant information on fuel poverty affects her every day of the week. She is luckier than others because she lives with family members and the cost of fuel is not a major problem but it will become one for many. The budget has added to concerns.

From telephone calls and e-mails I can identify that there is a problem, particularly for elderly people living alone. There is a need to identify the contributions that organisations such as Age Action Ireland and Alone at Willie Bermingham Place, not far from where I live, have made. People who could have been left on their own are now living in a safe, warm environment. I am often struck by the sense they have that they can rely on each other, something with which elderly people identify. This is particularly true of Alone.

In fairness to Dublin City Council, it has added much to the stock of senior citizen accommodation, some of which is of a high standard. A development in Islandbridge won an award recently.

Every time I think of the issue of fuel poverty I think of those living in Memorial Court who have told me in the past two years that the heating is turned on at 7 a.m. and off at 11 p.m. If one wakes up extremely cold during the night, one must turn on the two bar electric fire. As this raises concerns about cost, elderly people do not do so, rather they sit there while the temperature in the room drops. Why do we build places if we cannot make adequate heating arrangements?

I again thank the delegation for its presentation. I am deeply sorry I was not here to hear the facts presented. When considering the table and comparing the position in other European countries, we see we are top of the scale when it comes to people dying. That reflects on us as public representatives; we have to ensure our voices are heard when speaking about elderly people living in the community. They are not all lucky enough to have contact with organisations such as Alone. However, they are lucky to have Age Action Ireland and other organisations to be there for them in their time of need. With an elderly parent, I understand the conditions that have made life tolerable for her, living with a member of the family, but others may not have that choice.

I apologise for being late. The Taoiseach and my party leader were speaking in the Dáil. There was pressure on us to be present in the Chamber and become involved in the debate.

I am sure I will be in trouble for not being there.

I just want to explain that it was not out of any disrespect to the group.

In fairness, we made that point.

I do not know what to say after the budget was delivered yesterday. Coming from a rural constituency, I will focus on the living alone allowance. If a couple live happily together in a home out in the country and one of the partners passes away or has to be cared for full-time in an institution, the house will still have to be heated and the car kept on the road. The difference in rates, €450 for a double pension and €225 plus €7.70, is enormous. The living alone allowance of €7.70 is pathetic. Together with the fuel allowance of €18, it is not sufficient to meet costs. I will continue to raise this issue in the Dáil and everywhere I can to ensure a sense of realism.

The number of deaths in Ireland is much higher. This forces people into full-time care unnecessarily and costs the State much more. In that context, one must be frightened by the level of support available. Last year it was expected that €100 million would be available under the Fair Deal legislation but this year the figure is €50 million. It is impossible to understand how the Bill can be properly put in place with the figure halved when prices are going up. I am afraid there will be many problems in the small print of the terms of the so-called Fair Deal, the Nursing Homes Support Scheme Bill. It will not turn out to be anywhere near as fair as was expected at the beginning.

I will read with interest the submission made by the delegation and will continue to highlight the issues affecting the elderly and the disabled. They are in the same position. The disabled are sometimes worse off because they are seen by some to be young. If one is not fit to exercise, heat and other issues become extremely important.

I thank all of my colleagues for their contributions and now invite Mr. Webster to make some concluding remarks.

Mr. Robin Webster

We welcome the invitation to appear before the committee, regardless of circumstances. We appreciate the complimentary remarks made about the work we do, which we will pass on to our colleagues. It is good that some of the work we do is appreciated. That is encouraging.

It is time we had a fuel poverty strategy, the focus of our submission today. While we welcome the setting up of the interdepartmental committee, we suggest a closer link between non-governmental organisations such as Age Action Ireland and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. There should be a closer relationship. Committees often do much of the work in producing reports, following which we try to play catch-up. There must be a way to co-ordinate and integrate the work of voluntary groups such as Age Action Ireland. We must ensure this is fed into the social partnership process because the other social partners — employers, trade unions and farmers — have an important contribution to make. I stress the urgency of the matter, as we are talking about older people. One of the points Deputy Crawford made concerned the distinction between disabled and older people, a matter about which we are concerned. One is disabled until one reaches the age of 65 years and then becomes old. Many of the older people about whom we are talking are also disabled. We are talking about a combination of conditions.

There is a need for special provision for persons living in rural areas. It is a critical issue. We are conscious of people's circumstances, including the further distance from services and so on.

We recommend that the joint committee press for the quick introduction of a fuel poverty strategy. We undertake research and involve all stakeholders in developing ideas. We would welcome the opportunity to develop a fuel poverty strategy, to which we would be glad to contribute.

Our last point is that, if we express disappointment about the budget delivered yesterday, we think this matter is urgent. We have been arguing to the Government that action needs to be taken this winter, as opposed to next winter. People in their 80s who are disabled are making difficult decisions about whether to cut back on food and fuel. That is not a myth; it is actually happening and it is time we put matters right.

I thank the delegation for its attendance and understanding. I will not continue to apologise but it was unfortunate.

I am delighted that we have had a good meeting which has been meaningful. As Senator McFadden said, it is an issue we will continue to revisit. All members of the joint committee subscribe to the view that we will pursue it and are happy to do so. Like other colleagues, I am delighted to pay tribute to Age Action Ireland for the work it does. While Deputy Cyprian Brady mentioned his constituency, I have not mentioned Tallaght. Deputy Catherine Byrne always reminds me of my Dublin background. We are happy to work with such organisations such as Age Action Ireland and appreciate the work it does on behalf of all our communities. We look forward to pursuing the issue and meeting the delegation again.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.15 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 29 October 2008.
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