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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL PROTECTION díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Jul 2010

Effects of Current Economic Climate: Discussion with Society of St. Vincent de Paul

We will hear a presentation by the Society of St. Vincent de Paul on the effects of the current economic climate on services provided by the society. I welcome officials from the society to the meeting: Professor John Monaghan, the national vice-president; Ms Audry Deane, national social justice and policy officer; and Ms Caroline Fahey, the social partnership liaison officer. The format of the meeting will involve a brief presentation by the Society of St. Vincent de Paul followed by a question and answer session in which my colleagues will be invited to participate.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. The witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, witnesses should not criticise or make charges against any person(s) or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

If Professor Monaghan is not frightened by that, I will ask him to start his presentation in a moment. Before that, I want to lodge apologies for my colleague, Deputy Healy-Rae — as a result, I am in the Chair — and also for the Labour Party spokesperson, Deputy Shortall. I particularly welcome the attendance of our colleagues, Deputy Ring, who is the new Fine Gael spokesperson on social and family affairs, and Deputy Catherine Byrne, who has been here previously but who is now the front-bench spokesperson for older citizens. I just wanted to highlight them and on behalf of the committee, to wish them both well with their duties.

If that is not too much to grasp, I again welcome Professor Monaghan. As ever, we are delighted to have him. In fairness, we all have contact with the Society of St. Vincent de Paul locally and we are always delighted to applaud its work. I invite him to make his presentation.

Professor John Monaghan

It is a pleasure, as always, to be invited here. We are grateful for the opportunity.

I will begin by congratulating both Deputies Ring and Catherine Byrne on their promotion. I look forward to working with them over the next period of time.

The committee has a copy of the presentation we sent in. If the committee does not mind, I want to just go through the headline issues to start with and then go into it in greater detail if the committee should have questions on any particular aspects of it.

I will start off with something the members do not have in front of them but of which, given that many of the members have contact with the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, they will be probably aware. Last year we spent €52 million, that is, approximately €1 million a week. That was divided fairly equally. Approximately half our budget goes to providing services, by which I mean our 1,000 social housing units, our 11 holiday homes, the 30 family resource centres, the eight clubs we run, many other such activities and 135 shops. The remainder is spent on direct support into families. I will give some of the headline numbers for that as it is important in some of the issues that will arise later on. Last year, we spent more than €6 million buying food for people. We spent nearly €4 million on energy bills and €4 million on education. As the committee can imagine, this time of year there are many calls for to help with school books, and so on. It will get worse again in September. In general cash assistance, we gave €9 million. That is a rough breakdown. Obviously, there were other bits and pieces that we have not included, but those are the headline issues.

One of the trends that we have seen over the past year of which the members will be aware is the significant increase in the number of calls for help throughout the country: in Cork, calls are up more than 50%; in the mid-west, 20%; in Galway city, 46%; and in the Dublin area, more than 37%. There has been a huge increase in calls for help to the society. It is difficult to get figures for smaller regions, but they are comparable from what we can gather, from talking to our colleagues in those regions.

We gather the information by a number of routes. There are calls coming into the offices by groups that we have throughout the country with the rather strange name, From the Ground Up. These are members who act as a sort of intelligence unit and provide us with information. We also are informed from surveys we conduct with our regional and national presidents. Ms Fahey will speak more about this later on because she is the one who collects all of these data.

Of interest to the committee will be the profile of the people we are now seeing. Probably the first point to make is that one might imagine that we are getting an incredible number of extra calls from people who are being affected by the recession. We are getting some such calls, but not quite as many as we had anticipated. Some of it is because of the forbearance of the banks, the fact that they had been told to pull in their horns a little. We are seeing an increase, throughout the country in every single parish in every constituency. Sadly, the greatest call for help is still coming from those reliant on State benefits, whether it be pension or social welfare. Probably the saddest aspect is to see people whom we would have helped many years ago, who were managing to get by and who may have found a small job, now coming back to us, or those who were on welfare whom we were helping, who then moved away because they could manage on welfare because of the increases that occurred, and who are now falling back. It is sad that this is happening.

There is an increase in the calls from foreign nationals in Ireland. Anywhere between 15% and 20% of the calls now are coming from people who would have been here working during the good times and now for whatever reason find that they are in difficulty, and they are coming to us for help. Sadly, approximately a quarter of our hostel accommodation is now being taken up by persons who are foreign nationals, which is something we would not have seen previously.

I mentioned the kind of calls that are coming up, and Ms Fahey will speak about that and how we go about the help that we provide. In terms of the issues that are new to us, however, one of the big problems is that the level of panic and fear among many of those coming to us now is palpable. These are people who suddenly find that they are in very difficult circumstances, who previously would have supported the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, and who now find they must rely on it. They are caught between panic and shame. They feel they should not be going to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, that they are not the kind of person the society would help. Of course, that is not true but that is their attitude. There is the difficulty that this forces, not just upon those persons but upon the members of the society.

The pressure on our members has increased to such a degree — our branch in Cork comes to mind in this regard — that we have been obliged to organise sessions at which support can be given to them. Our members deal with people experiencing high levels of panic, financial difficulty and in some cases, unfortunately, those who are obliged to deal with the aftermath of their friends or loved ones committing suicide. Massive problems exist not only for the families we help but among our members. This is the case throughout the entire country.

How are we coping with this? As members can imagine, we are spending more money. We are working very closely with the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, to try to ensure that those who seek our help have at least a pathway through the financial system. One of the major issues is the impact of the most recent budget, particularly in the context of withdrawal of the Christmas bonus and the problems to which this gave rise. The budget had a major effect on many of the families to which we provide assistance. Many of these families found that their incomes have been dramatically reduced. That is the reason those on social welfare with whom we were not dealing before are now seeking our help.

The vast majority of those seeking our help are families with children. They generally seek assistance that they might buy food and fuel. The vast majority are single-parent families. There is a real problem in this regard. Sadly, EU statistics indicate that lone parents with children are by far the most likely to fall into difficulty. That is what is happening.

The Houses recently passed the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2010, which contains a number of provisions relating to lone parents. We have been doing some work in respect of this legislation and have made it known to the Minister, at various meetings, that we are concerned about the implications of the legislation, particularly if the support required for lone parents is not put in place. We welcome the fact that the Bill pushed back the date after which this will be introduced to 2016. This will give the Minister and the relevant sections of the various Departments an opportunity to ensure that there will be a seamless approach with regard to helping single parents move from welfare to work. That is something we would support. What we do not want to see happen — we are concerned that it will come to pass — is that such individuals will simply shift from one welfare payment to another. Unless supports are put in place for them, that will be the inevitable consequence.

On a positive note, the amount of money we collect through fund-raising increased during the past year. Compared with the experience of some other charities, that is a welcome development. There has also been an increase of 25% in the number of people donating via our website, which we launched 12 months ago. It appears, thankfully, that members of the public who have always been so generous — as have the members of this committee and, in particular, the Chairman, who has supported various events we have held — are continuing to give. They are providing us with much needed support. We received great support during the recent floods and this was particularly helpful in allowing us to assist people in paying their energy bills.

A number of surveys relating to poverty indicators have been published in recent times. We have being trying to bring the message in this regard to the committee and various Ministers for several years. These surveys indicate in stark terms that approximately 25% of households in Ireland are living on €20,000 per year or less and that more than 50% of households are living on incomes of less than €40,000 per year. That is a sad, cold statistic, particularly when one considers the vast amounts of money that have been invested in supporting various institutions.

Deflation may have helped to reduce the cost of food but when one considers the statistics provided by EUROSTAT last week, it is obvious that Irish food prices are still the highest in Europe. A small percentage reduction is just that. It is a small fraction of a decrease on a very high cost.

One of the things about which we are extremely concerned is that it appears, for various reasons, that in the forthcoming budget there are going to be further cutbacks of one kind or another or that there will be increases in the costs incurred by families. We all understand why this is likely to happen. We are concerned that the impact of such cutbacks or cost increases will be to further increase the numbers of people seeking help from the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. We do not want it to be the case that even more people will be shifted from work into welfare and then on to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. We are concerned about the human tragedies we encounter, particularly those relating to people who are in extremely different and difficult circumstances and who do not have the coping skills which seasoned welfare recipients possess.

I thank Professor Monaghan for his presentation. I call on Deputy Ring to make his maiden speech before the committee. I welcome Deputy Enright to the meeting. Is she representing the Labour Party?

I thank Professor Monaghan for his kind comments. I look forward to working with him and with the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. I have worked very closely with the society in my home town and I must state that, in light of current circumstances, we are lucky to have access to such an organisation.

What we need now more than ever is a strong Society of St. Vincent de Paul that will speak out for the poor. Last year, the Combat Poverty Agency was subsumed into the Department of Family and Social Affairs and has now been transferred to the Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs. That was a major mistake because there is now no one in that sector of society who will speak on behalf of the poor. Perhaps Professor Monaghan will comment on that when the opportunity arises. The Government should reconsider the position and should re-establish the Combat Poverty Agency. The agency, along with the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and others, was prepared to speak for the poor.

I was surprised by Professor Monaghan's comment to the effect that there are many people in the social welfare trap who never previously made contact with the society. The past 15 months has been the worst period I can remember during my time in politics with regard to people getting into difficulties. These people do not understand the social welfare code. Due to the fact that they have always worked, they have never been obliged to claim. Professor Monaghan is correct. Even though last year the society made an effort to present itself as an organisation which is prepared to deal with and assist people. There are some who are ashamed to seek assistance from the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. That is a mind set we must change. The society is there to assist people. We must do everything possible to stop people thinking the society should be the last resort in the context of seeking assistance.

The greatest scandal of the past year, which gave rise to severe difficulties for many people who are on social welfare, was the withdrawal of the Christmas bonus. Regardless of the cutbacks it proposes to impose, the Government must reintroduce the Christmas bonus. Without it, people encountered extreme difficulties at Christmas and got into debt. In the interim, they have not been able to get out of that debt. That is why the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and community welfare officers are under great pressure. I call on the Minister for Social Protection to see to it that the Christmas bonus will be reintroduced.

Problems will be created in the future, particularly for those on social welfare, in the aftermath of the introduction of the carbon tax. Has the Society of St. Vincent de Paul made a presentation to the Government in respect of this matter? When the tax is imposed, it will give rise to great difficulties. On one hand, the State is giving people payments but, on the other, it is introducing stealth taxes which are, in turn, causing problems and adversely affecting those on social welfare.

In recent years, the Government stated that deflation has led to a fall in food prices. I was glad to hear Professor Monaghan's comments in this regard and I welcome last week's report which showed that Irish prices remain the highest in Europe. I have been informed by constituents — I have seen the evidence for myself — that prices are not falling to a major degree. The figures provided by EUROSTAT last week show that even though Ireland has a large agriculture industry, people here pay more for milk, beef, and so on, than their European counterparts. Action must be taken in respect of this matter. People on low incomes cannot be informed that food prices are decreasing at the same time as having stealth taxes being imposed on them. Last year's cut of 5% in social welfare payments had an awful effect on families.

Like Professor Monaghan, I am concerned with regard to the changes relating to lone parents which were introduced in the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2010. This matter does not relate to lone parents, it is about children. We must ensure that we protect our children. As everyone is aware and as recent reports have shown, there have been many difficulties in this regard in recent years. We do not want this to continue to be the case. It is important, therefore, that children should be protected.

It is easy for people to say that lone parents are cleaning up in respect of the social welfare system. That is not the case. They receive very small payments in respect of themselves and their children and they find it extremely difficult to make ends meet as a result. That message must be sent out, loud and clear. Many think these people are cleaning up, but they are not, they are hardly able to live. I hope that, through the work fair, we can get some of these people back into the workplace without penalising them, on the other hand, by taking social welfare payments from them.

I welcome the SVP representatives to the meeting. Like every Deputy, I work closely with the local conferences and society members in my area. We often refer people in difficulty to the SVP and the work of the society on the ground must be acknowledged because, by and large, it is done quietly and anonymously. Volunteers give great help to people.

I am intrigued by Professor Monaghan's comment that the increase in numbers approaching the society is not as high as he thought it would be. Like Deputy Ring, I wonder about that because I would have thought it would have been exponential. I agree with the professor's comments about the banks showing some forbearance. That is helping many people. The question for the Cooney report and this committee is how, in the absence of employment, people in arrears and negative equity have their cases finalised with the primary aim of keeping them in their home because they have to come to a conclusion at some stage. The SVP has been helpful in this area by giving people information about bank forbearance and so on. People are at home worried sick and they do not know what to do. I have witnessed the SVP in action in this regard.

I am also glad the society made a thoughtful response to the proposals in the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act regarding lone parents. The organisation is not instinctively opposed to it but it has concerns about it and it is seeking an interdepartmental group to consider ways to help lone parents. That would be useful and the committee could work constructively with the Minister for Social Protection on this as we go forward. The provisions in respect of lone parents are more generous than what the British have proposed. The Labour Party proposed reducing the qualification age to seven while the British are bringing it down to four. However, they provide state supports that may not be available here. I am not convinced that is the case but it is something that has to be worked on in the lead in to the commencement of the Act.

I accept all the poverty statistics. I also agree with Deputy Ring regarding the Christmas bonus and I will also call on the Minister to reintroduce it. Further cuts, taxes and charges are on the way. Every party has supported the Government on the necessity to reduce the deficit, which has to be done in the fairest way possible. If it is possible to reintroduce the Christmas bonus and the Minister for Finance has wriggle room, it should be his No. 1 priority. With the economic growth calculation being higher than he expected and unemployment being slightly lower than envisaged in the budget, although it is not that much lower, it might give him wriggle room to pay a Christmas bonus this year and I would support that.

On the issue of costs, we all accept groceries are dearer here than in other countries but welfare rates are generally higher here, and certainly higher than in the UK, but it is a little glib to discard the fact that food prices have reduced dramatically in recent years.

The Deputy is not living in the same country as the rest of us.

The Deputy cannot say food prices are increasing. They may be starting to climb again and that is a cause for concern but they have reduced dramatically in recent years. People started shopping again in the South even before the exchange rate changed because food prices had lowered. I do not deny they are too high but it is wrong to ignore the fact that they have reduced.

Education and health costs are not relevant for social welfare recipients because most of them have medical cards. These costs are then a matter for the State, which needs to bring them down. For example, in the education sector the school bus is available to people on medical cards and that is a factor. Education costs have increased by 11.3% but that is not relevant to someone on social welfare.

I accept what has been said about cuts but when the Department introduced social welfare cuts last year, it was able to show, for example, the costs for the elderly had not come down as much as for working or younger people. Older people have insurance policies that younger people in council houses do not but insurance costs had increased and, therefore, there was a justification for not touching the old age pension on a rational economic basis. Whereas because prices generally had gone down, there was some basis on which to introduce cutbacks and, even with them, prices were still lower. The Government tried to target cuts last year as best it could. It spent a great deal of time last year trying to target the cuts in the fairest way possible. Professor Monaghan will acknowledge the Minister met SVP representatives more than once in the run up to the budget. Will he comment on the price issue?

I welcome the delegation and I also welcome my colleague, Deputy Ring, back to lead Fine Gael on social welfare issues. I thank Deputy Enright for all the work she did on a number of reports, apart from the ordinary business.

Professor Monaghan's report was interesting, as was his comment that fewer people have approached the SVP than he might have expected. Part of this was the realisation by the banks that they had no other choice. They did not do this out of sympathy. They had no choice but to restructure mortgages and so on because they would not have been paid otherwise. The housing market was not at a level that they could force people on to the market and there was no benefit to them doing that. That is an important issue.

During the private session of the committee, I raised the issue of the self-employed and the farm assist scheme and so on. While the numbers might not be great, a significant number of people are suffering dramatically. For instance, I was approached by a young man who makes furniture. He went into the business using the back to work scheme but three of the four shops that he supplied went out of business. The social welfare inspector will not recognise that as a consequence he does not have the income he used to. The inspector is making out that his income only justifies a social welfare payment of €19 a week. I am not sure what he might have done but for help from his family. Others have been pushed to the limit and have committed suicide. It is a delicate issue.

However, I pay tribute to the tremendous work SVP has done. It is satisfying that, once again, the people are being generous and funding is still being provided to the society. When the people are called on to deal with any desperate situation, they recognise the need and when they see money being spent properly, as is clearly the case with SVP, they will contribute accordingly.

The price of food has been discussed but I am annoyed, as a former dairy farmer, that only 26% of the price of a pint of milk is paid to the primary producer now. The Government must take some serious action against the retail sector, which is ripping off the system and creating the food problem. When the major retailers found there was a difficulty with Northern Ireland, they were able to reduce their prices a bit to compete but they are still making massive profits in this big industry. Yet, the Government does not seem to be able to come to grips with this problem at all. We were told that by taking away the protective structures competition would ease the situation, but it has not helped the primary customer to get cheaper food.

Deputy Ring mentioned that a carbon tax would be introduced. However, the carbon tax is here. The increase in the price of fuel compared with a year or 18 months ago is dramatic. It costs approximately €750 to fill a 300 gallon tank. That is dramatic for someone on social welfare. We were told there would be compensation for it but the recent Social Welfare Bill did nothing in that regard. I would like to hear the witnesses' comments on that issue.

I agree that one parent family issues arise most often at my clinics. There are major difficulties here. Anyone who suggests that this is something that happens to bleed the system does not understand the difficulties those people are in and their need for help.

The previous speaker referred to medical cards. People on social welfare have a medical card only if they are totally reliant on social welfare. Those who have any other slight income or live in a rural area and have some bit of land are losing their medical cards by the dozen. This is creating tremendous difficulties for them regarding the significant cost of school buses, which has increased dramatically in the past two years, and school books and other items which are not provided to people who do not have a medical card. Those are the areas of great difficulty that I see. In many cases, if it was not for the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, things would be much more difficult for those who must pay for educational needs as well as food and other items.

During private session, we mentioned the habitual residence situation. I fully understand the reasons for this. We are coming across serious difficulties for Irish citizens who, for whatever reason, have had to come back to this country to support families or for some other reason. We must all work together to try to sort out those anomalies because they can create serious problems. Some non-nationals also find themselves in difficulty if they are not on a proper record, and some were not recorded by their employers at the time. They are also in serious trouble. I can think of one lady with twins aged just over a year old and a 14 year old son. She is not getting one penny of support from the State and her situation is absolutely dire. She was crying over the telephone to me. I have sent her help, and I make no apology for saying this publicly. She is getting help from the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and if it was not for that, I do not know what would happen to her. There is tremendous pressure out there and it is our job to try to ease it as much as possible.

I thank Professor John Monaghan and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul for all the work they do on a daily basis and have done for years. I also thank Professor Monaghan for his warm wishes regarding myself and Deputy Michael Ring. I also welcome Deputy Ring as our new spokesman on social welfare. He and I have been working together for the past three years, since I have been a Deputy, and I think we make a good team. I acknowledge the work of Deputy Olwyn Enright. Not enough has been said about the contribution she has made to this committee and the help she gave to me on the subject of social welfare. Social welfare is a huge portfolio and Deputy Enright had a real understanding of it. In the past week, I watched her in the Dáil with the Minister and I was taken by how on top of her brief she was. I thank her for her contribution and I thank her personally for her help. I learned a lot during the time she served on this committee.

It is staggering to think that €52 million a year, or €1 million a week, is spent by the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. That is a huge amount. What percentage of that is raised in donations? I agree with Professor Monaghan that more people are likely to give to the society than to any other organisation. I know this from what I see locally myself.

Deputy Ring said something about carbon tax. We discussed this issue at a meeting of this committee some weeks ago. I am dealing with people who have a State pension and a small occupational pension and do not qualify for fuel allowance. As a result, they are not entitled to any benefit under the warmer home scheme. Some people, in the city and in rural areas, find themselves in old houses which are difficult to heat. As they do not qualify for fuel allowance, they are not entitled to grants under the warmer home scheme to have an attic insulated or something similar. That is a real shame.

Last week, the person responsible for the warmer home scheme told the committee that they would look at individual cases that did not qualify for the fuel allowance. I have written to him since then.

Individual cases are fine but entitlement should apply to everybody. Someone who has a small pension they have worked for should be entitled to the grant. In some of the areas I visit — I am sure the same is true down the country — some of the houses elderly people live in need to be knocked down entirely and rebuilt. I do not think grants should be given on the basis of individual cases. We should not choose one person over another. It should be out there for people who are in need. I do not accept that fact.

I was recently in Thomas Street, because I go there on and off. I go there less frequently since my mam died but I used go with her on a weekly basis. Dealers, or stall holders, told me they saw a huge difference in the people shopping in Thomas Street last Christmas. Senior citizens who used to wheel their trolleys in and buy their little Christmas presents on the market stalls could not afford to do that last year. One of the dealers told me he could tell who would come each week and what they would buy for each grandchild or other relative. He said it was amazing the difference the loss of the Christmas bonus made. That is just one little story about how much the Christmas bonus meant to people who might have a treat or treat someone else at Christmas time.

I did a quick survey among people, particularly elderly people, as to how much fruit, vegetables, eggs and milk they eat. I am staggered by the number of people who do not eat those foods because they feel they are luxury items. It is appalling that in 2010 we have people, particularly senior citizens, who do not eat fruit, vegetables or milk daily because of the cost. I acknowledge that some of the less well known supermarkets make an effort to give special deals on some days. My local supermarket combines several products in special deals for everybody on Thursdays. This has made a difference to people and more supermarkets need to consider following suit.

I am concerned about the fuel allowance and what is likely to happen in that regard. It is now July, but we have just had a terrible week of rain and cold. It is blooming freezing in this room and I as an older person feel it cold. Perhaps the reason it is cold is to keep us on our toes. On the issue of fuel, I am concerned that the council does not allow people control their own heating, particularly where people are up at night. This issue must be addressed.

I understand there is growing pressure on members of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and that resources are stretched. People have been asked to make up to ten visits a day, but that is not possible. Has the society made any efforts in recent times to recruit more volunteers? We have many people unemployed who might be able to help. I have found in my experience in youth work that it is not that people are unwilling to be involved, but that they need to be asked. Asking them makes a huge difference. Many young, middle-aged and older people find themselves with nothing to do once they have done their bits at home. We need some kind of drive to encourage these people to become volunteers. I know we need to be careful because of the confidential nature of the work, but it would be worth while trying to involve some of these people. I thank the society for the work it does and for all the help it has given me in my constituency.

I welcome the delegation and thank it for its presentation. From the bottom of my heart, I thank the Society of St. Vincent de Paul for its goodness and decency and for the respect it shows people in its dealings with them. The society does fantastic work and I appreciate that.

My main concern is for lone parents. I do not live in the same world as Deputy Thomas Byrne and have not seen a decrease in the cost of food. I know people who are hungry; starving because they cannot afford to buy milk and bread. The term "consistent poverty" is bandied about, but there are people who do not have the bare essentials to get by. Many of these are lone parents. I am desperately concerned about these lone parents and their children because some 50% of requests for help to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul come from lone parents. How can these people and their children get out of the poverty trap?

Is it correct that the society spent €9 million on education last year?

Professor John Monaghan

It was €3.8 million, just under €4 million.

Was that money spent on supporting people going to college or on buying school books? How is that money spent and is any of it spent on lone parents?

I congratulate Deputies Ring and Catherine Byrne on their elevation as spokespersons. I thank Deputy Olwyn Enright for her work on this committee. When I came in here as a new Deputy, she helped me through my early days. I thank her for that and the effort and work she put into this committee. I am sure she will play a major role in Fine Gael in the future.

I thank the Society of St. Vincent de Paul for its presentation and for being so up-front in telling us what is going on. It knows what is happening because it is working on the ground. I was disturbed to hear there had been a 20% increase in calls in the mid-west area, my area, although I am not altogether surprised by that. Has the society any details or breakdown of the issues arising in the different areas, such as counties Clare, Limerick or north Tipperary? Do the issues differ from region to region? I am aware, for example, that school transport costs are much higher in rural areas and that the threat is that these costs will rise again this year. This is very worrying for people who are already put to the pin of their collar.

It is disturbing to hear that the society receives most calls from lone parents, some 50% of the calls made. Deputy Enright worked on the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill in this committee. That Bill brought in significant changes for lone parents and these were rammed through the Dáil by guillotine. These changes will have a dramatic effect on lone parents. Was the society consulted on these issues? I know lone parents have their own representative group, but given the amount of contact the society has with lone parents, it should have been consulted. The current Minister, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, always says that he consults first and then makes his decisions. However, I have doubts that the Society of St. Vincent de Paul was consulted on this issue.

Yesterday evening, the last person to visit my clinic was an elderly woman. She was slagging me about the Dáil being in recess for the next three months, but I told her that I was coming up today to attend the Joint Committee on Social Protection and that the representatives of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul were coming in to speak at it. She asked me if I would do my best to get the Christmas bonus back. The bonus is a major issue. On my way up today, I read in The Independent that Ireland’s economy would grow by 2.75% this year. The proof of the pudding is in the eating; the Christmas bonus must be reinstated. This committee is now the committee on social protection. If we are to protect the public we are supposed to represent, the Christmas bonus must be reinstated. I second the call made by Deputy Ring earlier that this committee would urge the Minister — who is a positive man — to be positive and reinstate the Christmas bonus. We need to do this for our older people who built up the country. It is not right that these people will be refused the bonus again for a second year. What is the society’s view on the ending of the bonus and the impact it has had? Has any case study been done on this issue?

I thank the members of the society and wish them well. I know they will go from strength to strength.

Deputy Carey heard Deputy Thomas Byrne make his point also. I will suggest at the end of this meeting that we correspond directly with the Minister to make our views known on the Christmas bonus and to provide him with the transcript of this meeting. I suspect there is unanimous approval in respect of that move. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Enright is sitting in a Labour Party seat, which I find ironic. It should not only be her own colleagues who comment on her contribution to this committee. With respect to Deputy Ring, we value the contribution Deputy Olwyn Enright made to this committee. She is a valued colleague and we will miss her contribution. I am pleased she is here this morning. I welcome her and invite her to make her contribution.

I wish to be associated with that. I compliment Deputy Enright and thank her for the job she has done, not alone in the social welfare area but in the area of education, where she was a spokesperson previously. She has been very helpful to me and I wish her well. Deputy Carey is right, she has a major contribution to make to politics.

I thank members for their comments and I join in congratulating Deputy Ring and Deputy Catherine Byrne, both of whom I have had the pleasure of working with for several years. I know they will do extremely well in their respective portfolios and that they will make a significant contribution to this committee and to the people we represent. My attendance here today is not a reflection on their ability to do the job but purely that I had asked the committee in April to invite the Society of St. Vincent de Paul to attend and I wished to follow through on that request.

The Deputy is very welcome.

The society is probably the best barometer we have of the situation for people. Its views would inform the committee in its general work. I will no longer have this portfolio but this information will be of help to me in my work as a Member of the Oireachtas.

Like Deputy Ring and Deputy Catherine Byrne, I was very surprised to hear that the changing demographic profile of the society's work has not been as I had expected. I ask the delegation to expand a little on this aspect. I have noted a significant change in the demographic profile of my work. This is also the case for all my colleagues. I still have social welfare recipients coming to my clinics but now I find that working people are coming to my clinics and also business people and farmers. The demographic profile has changed and all these people are in financial difficulty.

I know of an employer who employed 15 people. One of the couple in the business is seriously ill and the other partner is taking home a very small weekly income. They were told by the Department of Social Protection that if they closed down the business, they would be eligible for assistance. This would mean 17 people going on social welfare because one family cannot be assisted. This is what causes frustration with the system.

I wish to deal briefly with two or three points. The most telling point in the presentation is that the society is finding it difficult to spend good quality time with families. In my experience, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul aims to help people to help themselves by making a financial contribution. However, the issue of time is crucial. People are paying for Sky and Sky Sports and no one questions them as to whether this is the best way to meet their needs or balance their budget. What interaction does the society have with other agencies such as MABS, to advise people and to help them prioritise their household spending? This sort of help and assistance is probably needed. I do not mean they are not entitled to have what everyone else has but we all have to prioritise our spending.

On the issue of food, it can be argued that food prices have dropped but this is only true if one has access to a car to travel from shop to shop. The biggest multiple in the country can advertise price reductions in 2,000 products but once in the shop it is obvious that a few items are cheaper but the necessities are not necessarily cheaper. The cost of products which are essential for families has not come down. This is a real issue and a real difficulty for families with young children.

I ask for the delegation's comments on the situation for households with teenagers. Everyone says that the older the children, the more expensive they become. People coming to my clinics are generally parents of young children and who are in financial difficulties. I was surprised about the expense involved in having teenagers in a family and I am concerned that such families are in financial difficulties.

I have a question about the situation of lone parents. The society's statistics were compiled before the cut in child benefit payments last year. Requests for assistance from lone parents make up 50% of requests to the society. Is the income gap the reason for these requests? I know lone parents are more at risk of poverty than most other groups. The Minister will argue that this group receives benefits. Is it a case of household budgeting or is it the case that the amount of money coming into the house is not sufficient and that none of us would be able to survive on it?

I apologise for being late as I was attending a meeting of the Joint Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. I welcome our guests and compliment them on their report and the work of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. I wish to be associated with the motion about the Christmas bonus and to share in the——

The Deputy's name is being included in Deputy Thomas Byrne's group, if that is all right.

That is all right for the moment.

Deputy McGrath is under the whip in this committee anyway.

I also wish to be included in the good wishes and congratulations expressed to the members on the other side.

Thank you, Deputy. The delegation and Professor Monaghan will have heard from all the members the strong support for the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. I am sorry that Deputy Catherine Byrne is out of the room because I wanted to say my contact with the St. Vincent de Paul goes back all those years to a different Dublin, in Drimnagh Castle, where I went to school. Like other colleagues, I commend in particular the conferences in my area. Some of the delegation will know that I live in Tallaght. As Deputy Byrne said, when one contacts the Society of St. Vincent de Paul quietly and confidentially on behalf of constituents, the response is always first class, as one would expect.

Deputy Catherine Byrne made the point about us all being staggered by the €52 million being paid out by the society. However, all that money and probably more, is being collected. Even in a very difficult time for our economy, even in recessionary times, the generosity of the Irish people in all our communities, has been first class. In my community, to help a particular conference in Tallaght west — which is a challenging area — I participated with other colleagues in a wheelbarrow push, along with a Shamrock Rovers football star and a boxing champion, Paul Hyland. It was innovative and good for our morale but it was also good fundraising. We went through Templeogue and Tallaght. I know the society does not boast too much but such events please people, gives them a lift and raises money. I do not think I am being patronising. We have all talked about the support of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul in all our communities and we ask the delegation to pass on that message to the national executive of the society. I invite the delegation to deal with the contributions now.

Professor John Monaghan

Deputy Olwyn Enright was not in the room when we arrived but like her colleagues we have enjoyed working with her, not just in her previous portfolio but also in education. We recognised her dedication, her skill and expertise and her support and we greatly value that. We hope we can count on that support again in the future. We look forward to talking and working with Deputy Enright in the future.

I will deal first with some of the general comments and with regard to particular areas upon which I would like my colleagues to comment. I will ask Ms Caroline Fahey to talk about issues of the numbers and how we collect them and to talk about lone parents because Ms Fahey has done much work in that area. I will ask Ms Audry Deane to speak on the issue of the food and education costs. I will make some overall general comments.

Deputy Ring asked about the Combat Poverty Agency. It was a disgrace that it was done away with. Then again, I would say that, as I was a member of the agency. However, it was dreadful, totally unnecessary and very unfair. It is significant that of all the so-called quangos, 250,000 in total, those that were amalgamated or purged or whatever, all seemed to be associated with helping people. I thought that was rather strange. The Combat Poverty Agency played a very fine role and it is a dreadful pity that it went from its position as an independent agency into being part of the Department. The hope is that there are very good people who have gone into the Department and I have no doubt that their expertise, skills and dedication, will not disappear. I hope they will be able to influence change for the better.

I will make general comments about the carbon tax and the fuel allowance. The Deputy asked whether we had met the Minister and we had. On the question of whether we were consulted beforehand, there was a general discussion with many people and we made our submissions. We are concerned about the impact. We have raised these concerns with the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív. We have certainly made the point about the fuel allowance. It is important to improve the insulation of people's homes so that they do not spend more on heating, but we also need to ensure in the first instance that people can actually heat their homes. Because of the carbon tax we are not convinced that can happen very easily without them having to spend much more money.

I wish to repeat a suggestion I made at a previous meeting of this committee. I made it to the Minister less than ten days ago. Members from rural Ireland will be aware that a fuel allowance of €20 a week is of no use to people in rural areas who need to fill their oil tanks. We suggested to the Minister that even if he did not increase the amount of money, he should pay it in two equal tranches in October and January. If this committee were to support that suggestion, we would be very grateful. It would help people greatly, particularly those in rural Ireland who are not on the gas network and may not be in a position to buy coal, etc. It would be useful if the committee could support us in that regard.

I would like to respond to Deputy Thomas Byrne's comment about food. Ms Deane will also speak on the matter at a later stage.

I want to make it clear that I am not equating what I said with the reality that some people do not have food. I accept that completely. I know them myself. I was making a general point about the consumer price index. If the Fine Gael spokesperson is not accepting the consumer price index, the State as a whole has a problem.

Professor John Monaghan

Can I clear that up? We will accept the consumer price index.

It needs to be looked at.

I will let the Deputy in again after the witnesses have responded. If members of the committee want to speak at that stage, I will be happy to facilitate that.

Professor John Monaghan

Ms Deane will speak in greater detail about food in a few moments. It is significant that in the late 1990s, we were spending approximately €18 million and visiting a fair number of people. By 2009, the last year for which accounts are available, that figure had increased to €52 million. We are now visiting more and more people and spending over €6 million a year on food. If there was no problem, why did we have to spend more money and visit more people during the good times? Clearly, there was a real issue and it is continuing. Ms Deane will talk about the impact of food poverty and its effect on teenagers.

Deputy Crawford has raised issues relating to the self-employed on a number of occasions. The society continues to come across problems in this regard. I would like to discuss this matter in the context of the general surprise about why we are not seeing more people. We have seen a huge increase — of between 30% and 50% in certain parts of the country — in the number of people coming to help. We were surprised because we assumed a larger number of people would be directly affected by the recession. We did not see quite as many such people as we had anticipated, partly because of the forbearance of the banks. The biggest issue, which was mentioned by Deputy Ring, is that many people feel they cannot approach the society. We have tried hard to transmit the message that they can approach us, and that we would like them to do so. We have put up posters in various places to encourage people to avail of our services. Any time I have appeared in the media, I have made the point that people should put their pride aside and come and talk to us.

The 9,500 members of our groups throughout the country have substantial expertise in finance and banking, etc. Some bankers are members of the society, strangely enough. They are willing to offer advice and help to people. Part of the reason the demand on our groups has not been as great as we had anticipated is the forbearance of the banks and insistence that they work with MABS. I am not sure if it was Senator McFadden or Deputy Enright who asked if we work with MABS, but the answer is that we do. We are constantly working directly with MABS to put manners on people's budgeting processes.

Members of the committee have agreed to support our efforts to restore the Christmas bonus. I assure the committee that the Christmas bonus was used for more than buying toys, emotional as that is. It was provided in advance of the post-Christmas sales, when older people tend to buy new clothes. People stock up on fuel at that time of the year because the evenings are dark and houses are very cold. It is the time of year when people buy extra clothes for their kids. The Christmas bonus was often used to pay for exam fees and CAO applications, which have to be paid for in January. It was more than just a bonus for Christmas — it went beyond that. It is worth bearing in mind that last year's measures went beyond the 5% cut. The bonus was scrapped and the welfare was cut. People in social housing and on rent supplement comprise the only group in the country whose rent and accommodation costs increased last year. The rest of us saw our costs go down. Therefore, poorer people were down by a considerable amount of money last year and continue to suffer as a result this year. We support the suggestion that the Christmas bonus should be restored and that no further decreases in welfare rates should be sanctioned.

I want to respond to some of the general points that were made. Ms Deane will speak about teenagers. On the issue of recruitment, we are constantly looking for volunteers. We are very grateful for the volunteers we get. Indeed, we have opened new branches or units — we call them conferences — in places like Balbriggan and Dundalk. Several new conferences have been established throughout the country to try to cope with this amazing level of activity.

I agree with the comment that was made about the quality of the time we spend with people. It is a real difficulty. Our members are often out three or four nights a week, making ten calls a night. They try to sit with people and offer them the kind of support and advice they need. Our objective is not just to help people to overcome initial hurdles, such as paying the ESB bill, sorting out the gas bill or buying the school books. I do not doubt that Ms Deane will comment on the remark that there is no great reason to worry about increases in educational costs. There are definite reasons to worry about such increases. When those who are struggling wake up every day, they have to decide whom they should pay that day. They wonder whether they should buy food or pay the rent. They do not know whether to use their money to buy oil or to pay for school books. When they meet their children's teachers, they have to explain they cannot pay their voluntary contributions. We will face many such cases in September.

I have made some general comments. I ask my colleague, Ms Fahey, to state how many people we are seeing. She might wish to make specific reference to lone parents as she has done a great deal of work in that regard.

Ms Caroline Fahey

We were asked if we can break down the information we receive according to different regions. We can do so for our largest regions, which are Dublin, Cork, Galway and the mid-west. I am given the information that is gathered when members of the public contact regional offices, by telephone or in person, to request help. I collate that information. I started to do this work in relation to the Dublin region, before moving on to other regions. I find it striking that despite the rural-urban divide, etc., there are similar experiences across the regions. Lone parents continue to comprise the largest group of clients. We are also contacted by many people who live alone and are obviously struggling with the costs associated with managing by one's self. It can be expensive to run a household in the absence of a second social welfare payment. Many couples with children contact us as well. Those are the main household types.

In the mid-west region, 42% of those who contacted us in the first three months of the year were lone parents, 17% of them were couples with children and 27% of them were people living alone. Those figures are similar across all areas. In most regions, we can provide information about the number of foreign nationals who request assistance. For operational reasons, we do not have such figures for the mid-west, unfortunately. In the Dublin region, which is our largest region, the foreign nationals who come to our office to seek help are more likely to be in households with children. They are also more likely to be unemployed, rather than on a longer-term social welfare payment like the one-parent family payment or the disability payment. The habitual residence condition makes them much more likely to have delays or difficulties in getting social welfare. I will speak briefly about this condition later in the meeting.

Another striking statistic is that the vast majority of our clients are in receipt of social welfare. Approximately 3% or 4% of our clients are in education or training. Some of them are in employment, including part-time work. Most of them avail of social welfare payments. Although the extent of that varies across the regions, the most common payment they receive is the one-parent family payment. People tend to come to our regional offices to seek help with the largest problem they are encountering, such as a substantial ESB bill. They might realise on a Thursday that they have no food for the weekend. A client might describe such a problem over the telephone, but when a member of the society visits him or her, a range of other problems might become evident. Such problems might not be evident in this analysis by virtue of the confidentiality between the member and the person being visited. In the first three months of this year, almost half of all initial requests in the mid-west related to difficulties with food and fuel. Such problems are massive. Secondary difficulties with education or transport, for example, might not emerge until the member visits the person in question to help him or her with his or her immediate problem. I suppose that is all I have to say about our numbers.

Professor John Monaghan

I would like to add a comment on the numbers. Ms Fahey is picking up information from our regional offices. We have full-time offices in eight of our 12 regions. Some of the smaller regions do not have offices that are manned on a full-time basis. The numbers Ms Fahey is providing represent the tip of the iceberg. I know from my conference in Leixlip that not all calls come through the national office. They are local. It is particularly the case in rural parts that callers come to the premises and are not captured by the figures. Very often these calls are not filed for Ms Fahey. Bearing mind that the society uses volunteers, we are trying to obtain a better understanding of how calls come through. We are trying to update our system such that we will have an even better understanding of where calls come from and who the callers are. We are getting a snapshot that is reasonably accurate, but it is not the complete picture. There are more callers than Ms Fahey's statistics suggest. We are putting in over 2 million volunteering hours a year and making over 400,000 visits, not all of which are captured by the statistics.

Ms Caroline Fahey

The issue of lone parents is considerable. When we started to consider the numbers from the regional offices, it stood out that lone parents across the country comprised the main group seeking our assistance. The reasons are difficult to determine. Low income is the obvious reason and certainly part of the picture. The low level of education among lone parents is such that it is very difficult for them to find work that will lift them out of poverty and simultaneously meet their caring responsibilities. They must be the main carer and breadwinner, which places considerable pressure on them.

The ESRI produced a report earlier in the year that made the connection between leaving school early and becoming a lone parent. The likelihood of becoming a lone parent if one is an early school leaver is shocking. A way of tackling this is to tackle educational disadvantage.

Most lone parents in receipt of the one-parent family payment are working, but Irish and international research shows the quality of this work can be poor. Much of it is part-time and casual and there are very few opportunities for progression. When one is limiting one's working hours to those hours when one's child is in school, the opportunity to make enough money to lift one out of poverty is limited. This, coupled with the low value of social welfare payments and the cuts to social welfare payments, is definitely one reason so many are visiting the society.

Professor John Monaghan

I have been involved with the Society of St. Vincent de Paul for over 25 years. In all those years, sadly, single parents have comprised one of the larger groups in need of assistance. One difficulty is that they are very often trapped by their circumstances.

We were not invited here to comment on the current legislation when it was being drafted. We were only invited to do so when it was effectively a fait accompli. We stated we very much wanted to see single parents and lone parents move from welfare to work. Based on my experience of visiting them, this is what they want also. Very few of the lone parents I have met have said they are happy on the book and that they want to remain as they are. One needs to be careful in generalising about lone parents because the vast majority are looking after their families very well, trying to work and not necessarily relying too heavily on the system. Our problem is that those whom we come across are in the most difficult circumstances. We find that they need help in terms of education, training and child support. Moving them from a one-parent family payment to jobseeker’s benefit on the assumption it will solve a problem is nonsense. One must ask what jobs are available for them and whether they have the skills to take up the jobs should they be available. That is why we said to the Minister that we did not disagree with the concept of moving on. The Minister is aware of this. Lone parents do not want to depend on the State. We need to put in place systems to address their needs. As Ms Fahey asked, how can we match lone parents’ level of education and training with their child care needs? One may say the kids are now 14 years and ask what the problem is. If one has dealt with many of them and knows their circumstances, one will know there is a problem and that one really needs to ensure they are looked after. While we do not disagree with the concept of moving on, the devil is in the detail. We are happy to chat with the Minister about our experience in this area and have offered to do so. This could be of benefit to everyone.

Ms Caroline Fahey

To return to the issue of lone parents, there are ways by which the social welfare system can be improved to make it easier when changes are introduced. The conditions for jobseeker's allowance are very tight and it is difficult for someone with caring responsibilities to manage. In the United Kingdom the required number of working hours has been reduced such that one can avail of jobseeker's allowance if one is only available for work for 16 hours a week. Here one must be available for 30 hours or a full-time position. A change in this area could be simple and make a considerable difference to lone parents.

With regard to the habitual residence condition, a large number are being refused social welfare point blank without much consideration of their circumstances. Habitual residence requirements are extremely complicated, as anyone who is dealing with an appeal or case will know. There are two problems in this regard, the first of which is that the condition could be considered unjust. It is very difficult for people who have come here to meet it. The returning Irish comprise a group in respect of whom the condition is great in theory. However, one must ask whether it works in practice.

The second problem is with the interpretation of the condition. People are being refused access to social welfare payments. If one looked at the guidelines, one would say it could not be right. Unfortunately, an individual is often refused supplementary welfare allowance while appealing the decision, thus leaving them with no income or without a real right to appeal. If one has no income, one may believe one cannot appeal. Many in this category are coming to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. Many of the people we assist are already in receipt of social welfare payments; some are also in receipt of rent supplement. Those affected by the habitual residence condition have no income. This puts a lot of pressure on our members. They are happy to consider cases, but, given that it can take weeks or months for an appeal to be dealt with, they regard the system as very unjust. We would like to see staff trained better to make decisions and a relaxation of the supplementary welfare allowance requirements such that people could make an appeal. Chances are that if a European citizen, in particular, has a work record here, he or she will be entitled to supplementary welfare allowance. However, this message does not seem to be filtering down to those who make the decisions. We are encouraging everyone to appeal if he or she has a record of working in Ireland. Appealing is very difficult, as I am sure members know.

Professor John Monaghan

We met the Minister for Social Protection last week to discuss this and other issues. We raised the issue of the habitual residence condition and particularly the fact that about one quarter of those in hostels were people who had a difficulty with the condition. They have no income. This causes a problem for us because, in theory and based on the small amount of money we receive from the State, we should be charging them if we are to run our hostels. How does one get blood out of a stone? This raises significant issues as to how we can continue as we are. We have raised this issue with the Minister who has offered to consider it. We would be most grateful if he did because it is a real problem.

I asked on a previous occasion in private session that the Minister be invited to come to the committee to discuss the habitual residence clause. It is now being said a person from Northern Ireland is not an Irish citizen. We are looking for a 32 county Ireland, yet it is being said citizens from Northern Ireland do not qualify for social welfare payments here, even though they were born on this island. I dealt with such a case last week.

Ms Fahey is correct that one can appeal, but it is a question of how long one must wait for a decision. Those affected will be dead before a decision is made on their appeal. Professor Monaghan is correct that they cannot obtain assistance from a community welfare officer or anybody else, unless they go to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. However, many will not go to it. There are people who are starving simply because this issue is not being addressed.

It was said the habitual residence legislation would not affect Irish citizens but it is. We must invite the Minister and his officials to come to the committee to explain what is occurring. The appeals mechanism for all social welfare payments is outrageous and disgraceful. What is occurring to those affected would not happen to any other sector in society. They must wait for nine or ten months before they obtain a decision on their appeal. It is outrageous.

Over 12 months in some cases.

I invite Ms Deane to contribute. As she knows, she is particularly welcome.

Ms Audry Deane

We need to go back to the point about the price of food in this country. For an extended period, we had unacceptably high food costs. Of course, I will not ream off the monthly CPI figures as that would be a very bad use of our collective time. However, I repeat that groceries are 29% more expensive in Ireland than the European average, particularly for nutritious food which contributes to a healthy life outcome and status. Meat is 21% higher than the average and milk, cheese and eggs are 37% higher than the average — these figures speak for themselves. Senator McFadden is correct to raise the issue of malnutrition because we are seeing in the health press much about elderly malnutrition, which is a coming epidemic in this country and is based on poor consumption of nutritious items. The Healthy Food For All initiative has done much research which shows it is quite impossible for a family on a social welfare payment to eat healthily.

Deputy Thomas Byrne commented that for people on social welfare, the health and education cost increases we mentioned in the presentation were not very relevant. The Society of St. Vincent de Paul finds they are very relevant. For a start, the majority of disadvantaged pupils do not attend DEIS schools so they have hidden poverty problems. They have the ongoing daily costs of going to school — they bring home the notes from the teachers to their parents, who must struggle to meet those costs. While I do not have the statistic to hand, we know many schools fundraise to meet basic running costs, which speaks for itself.

With regard to health costs, because one has a medical card and may be entitled to health services does not mean one can access those services, particularly in the public system, where there are long waiting lists and unacceptable waits for diagnostics. Sometimes, people want a diagnosis and are forced to pay for that privilege. To put the point on record, the dental scheme for social welfare has been decreased even further and it is now reduced to emergency care, when, as we all know, there are major links between good dental care and lack of ongoing health problems into the future. These are very worrying issues for us. We often find our members are meeting those costs for people because they simply cannot afford it.

Senator McFadden asked how we spend our education money. It is spent on all aspects, including preschool help for parents, particularly for our major cohort, which is lone parents who want to better themselves. We sometimes provide or contribute to crèche costs so lone parents can get a qualification and get the self-esteem a family gets if one improves one's education. We offer wraparound care for lone parents who want to do the leaving certificate applied. This might not sound much for the educated people here today but great self-esteem and positive vibes are created in a family. Society of St. Vincent de Paul members do whatever they need to do for the lone parent to get her into the school system. The lone parent may also be going to school to get the leaving certificate applied at the same time as her own children, which is a fantastic achievement. We are very privileged to be able to help people with that life journey.

We also help primary and secondary school children with the price of school books. It is a ridiculous situation that there are school book edition changes almost on a yearly basis for no curricular reasons. We question this and look forward to discussing it with the Minister for Education and Skills when she can get to see us. We also support people who want to up-skill and provide assistance for third level and foundation courses when students have got through the school system. We spend more than €4 million in this area, including on improving our information systems. All over the country, Society of St. Vincent de Paul members go into people's homes to motivate and encourage them to keep their children at school.

I would be happy to take further questions.

Professor John Monaghan

The issue of education is important. At present, many children are waiting anxiously on the leaving certificate results. Hopefully, they will all be successful and many of them will get offers of places in September on PLC, IT and university courses. I guarantee that this coming September will be the same as last September in that there will be a huge influx of calls for help from people seeking to pay the registration fee of €1,500, to pay for the books associated with attending the course, to buy clothes, to pay for bus tickets and so on, which is part of the €4 million plus we spend.

It is strange that while we have a back to school clothing and footwear allowance, which is very welcome, we have little or no support for even the poorest families in the State to help with books. The scheme that was in place was taken away and it has now been put back in a slightly different fashion. However, the sad fact is that if one is living in Letterkenny and crosses the Border, one finds that every child in the North of Ireland has a school book. I am sure members are sick of us raising this issue with them all the time but we are one of the few states in Europe where we expect children to buy school books.

We need a proper process. In these straitened times, if it is not possible to provide books free, what we would call on the Government to do, and I hope the committee would at least listen to this, is to introduce a national book rental scheme. This should not be an individual scheme in each school, where the principal teacher is pushed to do it on his or her own time, but a national organised scheme so we can put manners on the cost of the school books and the changes in the editions. We are not suggesting there can only be one prescribed text — this is not France. However, I cannot see the point of having six books for CSPE or 15 books for honours Irish. Surely we can restrict the number, which would mean the roll-over effect of a national book scheme would be easy to carry and easy to administer. That is the simple way, so people would contribute but it is done in a manageable way. The increase in education expenses affects us badly.

The witnesses said they met the Minister last week. Did they put the point to her regarding the books?

Professor John Monaghan

We did not meet the Minister for Education and Skills. This has been included in our pre-budget submission for several years and we have mentioned it at this committee. The difficulty is that when education costs increase, voluntary contributions are not voluntary and the schools know that. Schools throughout the country come to us, looking for €5,000, €10,000 and up to €20,000 to run their operations and support children. It is ludicrous when schools are coming to a charity expecting help for children.

I know St. Flannan's college in Ennis spent €17,000 last year. That scheme is gone and those pupils had nowhere to turn this year except to organisations like the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, which is outrageous.

The point I made was not about the extent of poverty, which I accept. I am a Deputy and know what is happening on the ground — I deal with the Society of St. Vincent de Paul regularly. My point was about the presentation of figures in comparison to the cuts in welfare rates. I was not talking about the fact there are working poor for whom the college registration fee of some €1,500 is a huge imposition — I accept that. My point was purely related to people on welfare, who will not be paying that €1,500. It is the working poor, by and large, who are stuck with many of these costs. My point was about welfare.

I challenge the Fine Gael Deputies on this point. Its spokesman on finance comes into the Dáil and says he supports the cuts of €4 billion last year and €3 billion this year, and that he does not support tax increases and will not oppose most welfare cuts but only some of them, yet the Fine Gael Deputies all say what they have said here today. There is a certain hypocrisy in the Fine Gael party.

We published what we would do.

Which did not include opposing most social welfare cuts.

We published what we would do. We were not going to cut in regard to people on social welfare. It is fine for Deputy Byrne——

The Deputy is——

The Deputy should have manners.

Hold on. I will try to be in charge. Deputy Ring is entitled to my protection, as I have protected Deputy Byrne. Although I know Deputy Ring does not need my protection——

No, I do not. I am able to fight my own corner. We in Fine Gael last year spelled out what we would cut. We did not propose cuts in social welfare.

No, we did not.

It supported the cuts in the dole, or it does not oppose them.

We outlined what we intended. Deputy Thomas Byrne commented on food prices and the reports that were published. I have always questioned these reports. It is a bit like the banks. Deputy Thomas Byrne was the very one saying he believed everything the banks were telling him, and they never told him a word of truth from the day they met the Government. We are taking hard-pressed money that could be spent on social welfare. The Christmas bonus would be available, were we not obliged to put €23 billion into Anglo Irish Bank that will never be seen again. I will take no lecturing from Fianna Fáil as its members are the people who got the country into its current state. The reason the Society of St. Vincent de Paul must do what it is doing is because Fianna Fáil and the Green Party have failed the people.

Does Deputy Crawford wish to make a brief contribution?

I revert to the issue of single parents being told they will be obliged to get jobs when their children reach the age of 14. While I accept there is a need to try to encourage such parents to be independent and so on, I raised this point during the debate on the most recent Social Welfare Bill. Many of those concerned live in rural villages in which no jobs are available and this is a real problem. For example, were one to live in the village of Newbliss, County Monaghan, which is located beside my home, one would be 12 miles away from the nearest major town, namely, Monaghan. Consequently, the chances of getting a suitable job are poor. All issues such as this must be taken into account.

As someone who lives eight miles from the Border, I hear all the talk about the low levels of social welfare provision north of the Border. However, one cannot take in isolation the actual payments of social welfare benefits north of the Border because, as the witnesses indicated, many other benefits accrue in respect of health, education and everything else. Consequently, the situation is not black and white and members should not blatantly abuse this kind of comment.

My last contribution was not intended as a question but as a response to Deputy Thomas Byrne and I have several questions to ask of Professor Monaghan. The first pertains to people who borrow money from loan sharks. He might indicate what is the current position, as there was an epidemic of such activity a few years ago. Second, I refer to people being affected by late payments as it sometimes takes months before one receives one's social welfare payments and Professor Monaghan might comment on this. Finally, I covered the passage through the Dáil of the Charities Act for Fine Gael from the beginning to the end and it is to be hoped that the legislative provisions regarding an ombudsman will be in place within a few weeks.

In this context, I wish to make an appeal to the public. Every day, one sees people on the streets who are collecting money for charities. However, reports in national newspaper have revealed that some of the money collected does not reach its intended destination. I wish to make an appeal to people, particularly those who are collecting money for charities, to consider the manner in which money is kept and spent by local charities, the first of which is the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, although there are many other good charities as well. However, I sometimes get sick and tired of seeing people collecting money for charities — if they are charities — when one does not know the destination of the money collected. I am glad that people are responding to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. The reason is that one sees what its people are doing on a local, rather than a national, basis. People see how its representatives go about their work quietly and in a manner that shows people some dignity. This is the reason I concur with Professor Monaghan that those who are in real need of help but who are ashamed of the stigma of asking for it from the society should forget about that and should take the help and assistance if it is available. It is done quietly and no one will ever know it has been given. The society supports the needy and people should respond and put their money in place.

Professor John Monaghan

I will respond to these questions before expressing my thanks to members. Unfortunately, there has been a significant increase in moneylending. While it died down during the good years of the Celtic tiger, it never went away but always continued bubbling under the surface in a surreptitious and hidden manner. However, moneylending has increased and from the evidence of colleagues in places such as Cork, Limerick and Dublin, it is rampant. It is a huge problem that was exacerbated beyond our expectations last Christmas on foot of the removal of the Christmas bonus because people expected that money and problems arose. This certainly is a big issue and we constantly try to take action about it.

As for late payments, I must be fair and acknowledge that we have a great working relationship with community welfare officers. It is an extremely difficult job, particularly when one considers the huge increase in the number of people calling on them with whom they never had to deal previously. Moreover, they now are dealing with complex issues that they never expected to be dealing with even a few years ago. Consequently, the society has great sympathy for them. However, as Ms Caroline Fahey has pointed out and from our own experience, we are experiencing real difficulties with people accessing or receiving social welfare payments. I refer to a quote we included in one presentation to the effect that one of our colleagues asked a community welfare officer how the latter was coping with such a big increase in demand. The officer replied that my colleague would not like the answer, which was that the community welfare officers were sending people to the society. This actually is what is happening and as a result, we are getting an increased number of referrals from community welfare officers. Moreover, we are receiving calls from the HSE asking us to do up people's houses, because it cannot or will not do it.

That is outrageous.

Professor John Monaghan

As for the Charities Act, the society welcomes this legislation. We always have kept full accounts that are published each year. People know where the money comes from and how it goes. Consequently, we greatly welcome the legislation. Other than the occasional national flag day, as a policy and as an ethos, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul does not engage in street collections. One will not see people from the society out chugging, as we are fundamentally opposed to it.

Wheelbarrowing.

Professor John Monaghan

Instead, we get people like the Vice Chairman, Deputy O'Connor, to push wheelbarrows and other things. We certainly will undertake that kind of well-publicised event. However, I agree with the Deputy that there are issues in this regard. Other charities choose to go down that road but it is not one that we will take. They must make their own decisions on that.

Finally, I thank members for the opportunity to appear before them and for listening to what we had to say. I thank them for the good and penetrating questions. We have picked up lots of information and comments and are most grateful for the support we have received from the joint committee.

I thank Professor Monaghan, Ms Deane and Ms Fahey for their attendance. This has been a very good meeting that I hope also will kill off the rumour that Members of the Oireachtas are on holidays, because the joint committee proved this morning that its members are on the job. A robust discussion has taken place, which is fair enough. However, the strong message from the joint committee is that members again have been delighted to welcome the representatives of the society to appear before it. It is clear that there is strong all-party support for the work of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, as there should be. I again thank the witnesses for their attendance and wish members a pleasant short break.

Before adjourning, I propose to deal with one minor item of business. While agreement was reached on this issue earlier, I wish to put on record that members agree to correspond directly with the Minister for Social Protection, as well as with the Minister for Finance, to bring to their attention the views expressed this morning in respect of Christmas bonuses.

I wish to formally propose this suggestion, if it has been seconded.

There is some confusion as to whether Deputy Thomas Byrne or Deputy Joe Carey proposed it but I will include both names.

Deputy Ring proposed it.

Yes, but then both Deputies Thomas Byrne and the Deputy himself seconded it. I am giving the Deputy some credit as well.

I suggest this letter also should include a request that the fuel allowance be paid in two blocks.

Yes. I think we did that previously. In addition, with the agreement of members, I propose that a transcript of this meeting be sent to the Minister. Is that agreed? Agreed. Incidentally, as the Minister is visiting Tallaght today, I will tell him all about this meeting.

I ask that the Minister should appear before the joint committee for a pre-budget meeting to facilitate members in making their pre-budget submissions to him.

That is agreed and we will raise this suggestion with him.

The joint committee adjourned at 1 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 15 September 2010.
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