Joint Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Sep 2021

Engagement with Chairperson Designate of Pobal

Chairman

I remind members participating remotely that they must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. The purpose of our meeting this morning is to engage with Ms Rosarii Mannion, the chairperson designate of Pobal, in order to discuss her strategic priorities for the role and her views on the challenges facing the organisation. She is joined by Ms Anna Shakespeare, chief executive of Pobal.

POBAL administers and manages Government and EU funding to address disadvantage and social inclusion. It provides management and support services to approximately 30 programmes in a broad range of areas, including social inclusion; early childhood care and education; community development; peace and reconciliation; equality; labour market supports; and education and training. It allocated €717 million in 2020.

Pobal's reach is widespread. It works on an all-island basis and employs approximately 500 people. On behalf of the committee I welcome Ms Mannion and Ms Shakespeare to this morning's meeting.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with such direction. For witnesses attending remotely outside the precincts of Leinster House and its buildings there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and as such, witnesses may not benefit from the same level of immunity to legal proceedings as witnesses who are physically present and caution should be exercised accordingly. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now call on Ms Mannion to make her opening statement.

Ms Rosarii Mannion

Good morning Chairman and thank you for the invitation to attend today.

I have had the honour of serving on the board of Pobal since December 2020 and I am very privileged to have the opportunity to lead the organisation forward as chairperson. I come from the small rural town of Drumshanbo in County Leitrim, a Border county. I believe passionately in rural communities, community development and social inclusion. I have seen first-hand the impact of the work of Pobal. My lived experience is that diversity, equality, justice and inclusion make for a stronger society. I know that these values give chance and opportunity to those who would not otherwise enjoy it.

In terms of my educational background, I hold a bachelor of arts degree, a higher diploma, a master of arts degree in public policy and a master of science degree in organisational development. I have studied equality and human rights and recently became a chartered director with the Institute of Directors, studying in detail governance, leadership, finance and strategy. I have served on boards at local, national and international level and am currently serving as treasurer on the board of the International Coaching Federation. I hope that these skills will help me make a better contributor as chairperson of Pobal.

Passionate about community development and the rural economy, I was a member of the Offaly county development board and have served as a volunteer with the National Adult Literacy Agency. Key interest areas of mine are the role of women in society, the role of carers and gender equality. Professionally, I have held key leadership roles in the public sector, most recently as national HR director in the Health Service Executive, HSE. I am a chartered member of the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development and a qualified mediator. I believe passionately in supporting individuals and teams and in developing supportive coaching cultures.

As chairperson of Pobal a key role for my board colleagues and I will be to support, challenge and lead our excellent and committed staff to deliver on Government policy, on our programmes and to remember one fundamental thing, namely, that Pobal is not an end in itself. It is not the object of the exercise but a means to an end, and that end is a stronger society. It is communities across the country where people, especially the most vulnerable, are better supported. My time as a Pobal board member and my appointment as chairperson coincide with the conclusion of our current strategic plan which covers the period 2018 to 2021. My colleagues and I, together with the executive team are deeply engaged with writing and agreeing a new strategic plan, a process that is now in its concluding stages.

The work of positioning Pobal to deliver on Government policy in ways that helps communities most is critically important. There are lots of metrics by which we can measure outputs but we must remember the fundamental fact that we exist to help people. The scale of that help and its importance in people’s lives is immense. In 2020, 26,178 individuals and 2,687 local community groups were supported through the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, while 16,939 new participants were approved as part of the seniors alert scheme, SAS. A total of 1,891 young people with disabilities have been supported through the Ability programme, through 27 organisations nationally, since the programme commenced. Some 582 community and voluntary organisations, charities and social enterprises received Covid-19 stability fund support, enabling them to continue to provide critical supports and services while 9,123 individuals were supported on Tús and 3,385 participants were supported on the rural social scheme, RSS. Subsidies were administered to 46,606 children from 36,236 households under the national childcare scheme while 105,975 children were supported under the early childhood care and education, ECCE, programme during the 2019-2020 programme year. This is a sample of the scale of what Pobal is delivering and demonstrates that its reach into people lives is large.

Every programme is about people and every life situation is unique. We are there to be a helping hand and a real support. If the programmes we support are effective then people’s lives are enhanced. That is the context in which my board colleagues and I are working on our strategic plan for 2022 to 2026. The framework for our new plan will revolve around our vision, our mission and our values. It is about delivering continuous improvement and about agility in that delivery. Pobal is now in the process of drafting the content for the new strategic plan across a set of four pillars underpinning our strategic ambition. Those pillars are people, systems and processes, customers and partners, and governance. As we conclude the development of our strategic plan for the next five years, Pobal has been engaged in the periodic critical review process. This periodic deep dive into public organisations is a very welcome opportunity for Pobal to reflect and to take account. As a relatively new board member, about to become chairperson, I have learnt a lot and taken considerable assurance from the rigor of this process. A key strategic priority for me as chairperson will be ensuring that the recommendations of the periodic critical review are implemented and that Pobal continues to provide a highly effective service for managing Government grants and payments to communities. This must be underpinned by high standards in accountability, financial management, and in the support we provide to all those we work with. Work to date on the periodic critical review evidences that Pobal engages and consults with supported organisations on an ongoing basis to ensure the effective implementation of the programmes they manage. The ongoing periodic critical review process and our new five-year strategic plan will be the impetus for the standards and the vision that the board and I, as chairperson, want for Pobal.

Pobal matters because every day, in towns and villages across Ireland, Pobal staff are on the ground working with communities. They are delivering services locally to combat social exclusion and enhance lives. Pobal makes a difference to people’s lives and communities every day and it is a positive difference I am convinced can be increased and built upon. As Chairperson I will define, clarify and agree expectations. I will invest in open, regular communication and respect the experience and input of stakeholders. In partnership with the CEO, I will lead a values-based organisation, support and challenge as required, be responsive and ensure the delivery of a value-for-money service for Government which makes a difference for people and communities.

I will lead a board that is focused both on the highest governance standards and on excellent performance.

As chair designate, I want to acknowledge the excellent leadership and commitment to Pobal of every member of the board and, in particular, our outgoing chairman, Professor Deiric Ó Broin. Deiric has contributed enormously and I express my sincere thanks to him. I want also to commend the work and dedication of the CEO, Ms Anna Shakespeare and all the staff of Pobal working alongside local and national community organisations to build stronger communities, to support families, to assist individuals and to nurture children every day. I am deeply honoured to have been nominated by the Minister for Justice, Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands, Deputy Humphreys, as chair designate for Pobal. I am conscious of the responsibility I have undertaken and I come here today to present my credentials and to pledge my utter commitment to the role.

As with other boards, I hope to demonstrate strategic leadership and to offer an approach that is collaborative and effective. I very much see the relationship between the board of Pobal and that of this Oireachtas committee as a two-way process. I would be very pleased to provide regular briefings that are appropriate and useful to the members. I thank the committee for inviting me today and I look forward to engaging with members in the future.

Chairman

I thank Ms Mannion. We will now take questions from committee members. One thing that many Members of the Oireachtas find frustrating is the fact that when agencies such as Pobal, right across the board, are established at arm’s length from the various Ministers, accountability to the Oireachtas is only through the parliamentary committee. The work programme of the parliamentary committee, dealing as our committee does with a broad spectrum of issues, does not lead to a situation where agencies are before the committee on a regular basis. If some mechanism could be found so there is a clear avenue and route for Members of the Oireachtas to raise specific issues with Pobal and get responses, that would be very useful. I and many other Members of the Oireachtas have done so in the past and have received detailed replies from Pobal regarding various issues, but having a formalised structure would be of benefit in providing a level of accountability. If Pobal could take that on board, I would very much appreciate it.

I call Deputy Paul Donnelly.

Deputy Paul Donnelly

I thank Ms Mannion for the presentation and I welcome her to the role. I have been involved in many community development projects over a good number of years. There is sometimes a sense that while the funding community projects are looking for is not a significant amount of money, the process they have to go through to go apply for that funding is not worth the time, energy and commitment they have to put in to complete the documentation and to go through all of that process. Is there anything we can do, when it is a relatively small amount of money, to support such projects? They sometimes just do not bother because it is too difficult for them. They may be very small projects with maybe a manager and two or three staff. They are managing the project and trying to grow, develop and build, and the Pobal funding would be a very small amount of their overall mainstream funding. Could I have feedback on that?

Ms Rosarii Mannion

I thank the Deputy. I totally agree with the point he makes and it is something I have observed myself at first hand. The Deputy will also be glad to know it is something that has been picked up on that periodic critical review. We have improved, and the feedback is that we have improved, on reducing the levels of bureaucracy but we can always do more. My commitment, working with the executive team, is that we are going to reduce those levels of bureaucracy, where we can, while at the same time holding that fine balance so we do not minimise or interrupt any standards of governance or accountability whereby we will be held to account. There is a fine balance there. We can do more and we will do more. At no point should it be prohibitive for a local voluntary organisation working on the ground with communities to enhance social inclusion, community development and all the things I have spoken about in my opening statement. At no point should our processes or systems be prohibitive to people in terms of engaging with funding. It will be a key priority, perhaps the key priority, in the new strategic plan, and one that we will show form on and improve on. I can give the Deputy that assurance.

Deputy Paul Donnelly

I am delighted to hear that. Thank you.

Ms Rosarii Mannion

In response to the Chairman’s point on regular communication, the point is that I am here to serve, so whatever needs to be done, I am willing to work with members on that to provide whatever is useful to them.

Chairman

I thank Ms Mannion. One of the things we are all finding across the country is the challenges with funding models as a direct result of the pandemic. I know Pobal has to make sure that the projects it is supporting are sustainable in the long term. We are in a very unique circumstance at the moment and it is important that we would ensure there is a certain amount of flexibility during the current climate. The opportunities to fundraise for community organisations are not there at the moment. There are issues in regard to the sustainability of some organisations in the short term. It is important that when assessments are done, they are not purely being done based on the here and now, which, as I said, is very unique, but that we look at the broader sustainability of these initiatives going forward.

One other point that I would like Ms Mannion to take away is in a broader area, and it is in regard to the level of female participation on public boards. Ms Mannion is sadly in a relatively unique position in that she has been a member of a public board, not just in Pobal but also the county development board in Offaly. That will give her a unique perspective in terms of the challenges across the midlands counties in particular. We need to do more to encourage women to apply for State boards. Ms Mannion is in an even more unique club in being a chair of a public board as there is only a small handful of women in that particular role. As I said as Minister and as a member of this committee, it would be great to be in a situation where the Minister of the day is forced to appoint a man to a State board in order to meet the 40% threshold. That is what we should strive to achieve right across the board in order to have a mix of gender. We also need a mix of background. If we look at many State boards across the country, many of them are dominated by people from Dublin or the hinterland of Dublin, and people have a very different mindset than we see in the rest of the country. It is important to get that regional balance. I hope Ms Mannion can engage with colleagues and use her role to encourage more women and more people from regional locations, with regional perspectives, to apply for appointment to State boards and to act as chair.

Ms Rosarii Mannion

I will start with the second point first. Female participation and gender equality is an area that I am absolutely passionate about. I am delighted to report that the board of Pobal has 60% female proportional representation at the moment. I would obviously like to see greater participation across the board.

It is an area that has improved across State boards. We have much more progress to make, but it certainly has been improved. Excellent work has been done by Balance for Better Business, the Public Appointments Service and the Institute of Directors in Ireland. I assure the Chair that I will do whatever I need to do to offer a helping hand to any females out there to participate in, or apply to, boards. I will certainly do everything I can in that regard. I thank the Chair for his comments.

On the point about Covid-19, there is no doubt that the Covid-19 pandemic and the restrictions have had a disproportionate effect on the most vulnerable and marginalised individuals. Pre-existing social and economic inequalities are increasing as a result of the pandemic. We are acutely aware of that in Pobal and we are not passive bystanders. We will feed our observations to policymakers in terms of policy design and implementation and in making sure that is taken on board as much as possible and as much as it practicably can be.

Chairman

I thank Ms Mannion for attending and for her instructive engagement with the committee. I wish her well in her new role. I thank her and Ms Shakespeare for their attendance.

The joint committee went into private session at 9.31 a.m. and adjourned at 10.37 a.m. until 9 a.m. on Wednesday, 29 September 2021.