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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Jan 2011

Article 15 of the Constitution - Review of Parliamentary Power of Inquiry: Discussion

We are continuing our review of the parliamentary power of inquiry, Article 15 of the Constitution. I welcome everyone to the meeting, particularly Donncha O'Connell of the school of law of NUIG from whom we will hear today. I thank him for his discussion paper which has been circulated.

Before commencing, I must inform Mr. O'Connell that by virtue of section 17(2)(i) of the Defamation Act 2009, he is protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence he is to give to this committee. If he is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continues to do so, he is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his evidence. He is directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and is asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, he should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I now invite Mr. O’Connell to commence his presentation.

Mr. Donncha O’Connell

Thank you, Chairman. It is a privilege to be invited to make this submission and I am particularly honoured to be making it with Deputy Ardagh as Chairman, as I realise he is soon to retire. I had contact with the Chairman in the past in the context of the ill-fated Abbeylara inquiry. I wish the Deputy the best in his retirement and hope it is happy and productive. I am also grateful to the clerk to the committee for facilitating this submission and I apologise for the late arrival of my paper.

I would like to give some context for the small point I wish to make. It is obvious people are quite animated currently by the idea of political reform and by suggestions that the political system may be transformed, whether by means of constitutional reform or otherwise. I am conscious when I relate strongly to and agree with that argument, that this may not be the concern of most people. There may be a degree to which things we think are important, such as renewing parliamentary powers of inquiry, are not viewed as important by people outside. Therefore, one basis on which I make this submission is to argue against a fear of being radical about change of the kind that is required rather than tinkering with the system in a manner that might seem like it is built on a desire to preserve the system without fundamentally changing it. We should engage with radicalism or radical ideas as something good and not avoid them.

At the time of the inquiry by the sub-committee of the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights into Abbeylara, I was the full-time director of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties and was involved with the Carthy family directly in their engagement with that process. The committee is well aware that inquiry did not continue as a result of the Maguire v. Ardagh decision. I do not wish to go over that decision because it has been dealt with adequately by John O’Dowd of UCD, but in that decision Chief Justice Murray was very concerned about the political nature of parliamentary committees and the degree to which they might be able to conduct inquiries in the absence of either real or apparent bias. I do not think that decision is only important because it impedes inquiries that might lead to adverse findings of fact about individuals who are the subject of inquiry. It also clearly impedes the ability of the Oireachtas to legislate effectively for a fuller form of parliamentary inquiry. Although there is some difference of opinion on that, the better view is that it would be difficult to legislate constitutionally for an effective power of parliamentary inquiry. Therefore, what I will suggest involves or necessarily entails constitutional reform as well as legislative reform.

One of the issues relating to inquiry by parliamentary committees or the Oireachtas is that there is an assumption that the Constitution necessarily requires a weak system of accountability. In fact it does not, but that is how things have evolved. There are many forms of accountability, applied by members on Oireachtas committees, which are not popularly understood or appreciated. The decision in the case of Maguire v. Ardagh does not affect that. There are plenty of ways in which parliamentary committees can make the Executive accountable in a manner of speaking and can in that context inquire without necessarily falling foul of the decision in the Maguire v. Ardagh case. Where the Maguire v. Ardagh decision becomes problematical is that if in the course of the exercise of these normal powers of accountability it becomes necessary to inquire more deeply into something, one clearly has a difficulty.

Why do I think that Parliament has a legitimate power of inquiry? I know the Supreme Court was exercised about whether it was inherent in the Constitution. I am not trying to avoid that but my sense is that if Parliament is the representative of the sovereign people that clearly must mean something. If the separation of powers implies some balance of powers, well if only as an instance of balance of power and a proper system of separation of powers, there must be some form or means by which Parliament can legitimately inquire into matters. That does not mean that Parliament must always carry out those inquiries directly. There are many forms of outsourced inquiry carried out by statutory bodies, for example the Ombudsman has extensive powers to inquire into allegations of maladministration and report on those to Parliament and there are numerous instances of that. The Irish Human Rights Commission also has an explicit statutory power to carry out inquiries but for a variety of reasons, including but not confined to funding restrictions, it has not fully realised the promise of its founding legislation in exercising that power. These kinds of powers of inquiry which are important, could be exercised more effectively if there were stronger connections between the Office of Ombudsman and the Irish Human Rights Commission and if both were more explicitly identified in law as parliamentary emanations. In the case of the Irish Human Rights Commission, this would require greater budgetary autonomy from the Executive and far greater transparency in the appointments procedure focused on establishing real independence for these kinds of bodies.

To create effective agencies of inquiry I suggest legislative and constitutional change to protect a system of parliamentary emanations that resources Parliament in the discharge of an essential power of inquiry. It is critical that the Office of Ombudsman be given clear constitutional recognition akin to that given to the Comptroller and Auditor General in the Constitution as an emanation of Parliament, that among its powers is the power to conduct inquiries at the behest of Parliament. If the Office of Ombudsman as a framework office is reconfigured in this manner, it should have a penumbral remit that covers analogous inquiry powers and functions exercised by statutory bodies, such as the Irish Human Rights Commission. It would share the political protection that would come with explicit constitutional recognition. It is also vital that the deficit that the Irish Human Rights Commission has identified arising from the absence of a designated parliamentary committee to which its reports be addressed. The creation of a new constitutionally protected office of Ombudsman with a clear and strong connection to Parliament would suggest the need to reconfigure parliamentary committees to fully realise the value of that office. That is the type of idea that would be covered in the more comprehensive constitutional reflection that I used to contextualise this submission.

Why am I thinking of this? It is instructive to look at a model of what has worked. Almost by way of reflex, people will suggest the DIRT inquiry of 1999 to 2000 as an example of an inquiry that worked. The Committee of Public Accounts in that instance as members well know, worked from a preliminary report prepared by the Comptroller and Auditor General, an office that is explicitly referenced and protected by the Constitution and it therefore had gathered professionally and had reliable information on which to conduct a legitimate political inquiry. Equally a similarly empowered Office of the Ombudsman, which would include other statutory agencies with inquiry powers could perform an equally valuable investigative role beyond those areas covered by the Comptroller and Auditor General so as to resource legitimate parliamentary inquiries. While Parliament might reserve the power to inquire, it might have to delegate the power to investigate. It needs to be able to do that to a constitutionally protected emanation. This is not entirely dissimilar from the types of proposals made by Fine Gael and the Labour Party for parliamentary inspectors, but the creation of some distance between Parliament and its emanations especially in the conduct of inquiries would be a more appropriate way to proceed. For that reason it may be better to locate investigative resources of Parliament in an independent but an appropriately connected office of ombudsman.

The idea of constitutionalising the Office of the Ombudsman is not an original proposal. If the idea was pursued and it brought within it inquiry powers of other bodies such as the Irish Human Rights Commission, it would also be necessary to address the Office of the Attorney General to at least consider the conflict of interest that potentially exists in that office between its role as legal adviser to the Government and as protector of the public interest. The role of protector of the public interest, might more appropriately be reallocated to a constitutionally recognised Office of the Ombudsman.

This is only a slice of the problem. Looking at this question is only partially addressing much deeper concerns about politics and the constitutional framework for politics. I am certain that an Executive centred view of the submission I have made would say it is not insufficiently cognisant of how things work or that it is naïve, that it is idealistic or that it is radical. I make no apology for that. What I am making a submission about is how I think things ought to be and not tinkering with how things are.

I thank Mr. O'Connell for his very stimulating remarks, on which members will want to comment.

I thank Mr. O'Connell for attending our first meeting of the new year. It might be our last meeting too.

Mr. O'Connell's submission is following a different track and takes a broader view than the other submissions. While one would see merit in examining these ideas, in particular constitutionally recognising the Office of the Ombudsman, in effect does Mr. O'Connell see a role now for inquiries by parliamentary committees? He mentioned the work of the Committee of Public Accounts and the fact that it is resourced by the constitutionally recognised office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. The members of the Committee of Public Accounts are briefed by the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff week in, week out. Even the members of the Committee of Public Accounts have felt restricted in some of their inquiries into the waste of public funds. It is one of the reasons I have been keen to see a recognised power for parliamentary committees to investigate such matter and to come to some findings, while at the same time trying to be aware of the constitutional inhibitions - and that could be dealt with by way of constitutional change. We are aware that such inquires would have to conform to the principles of natural justice and the decision in the Haughey case from the point of view of the good name of the citizen. Has Mr. O'Connell any thoughts in that area?

Mr. Donncha O’Connelll

The natural justice issues predate Maguire v. Ardagh. I am not against, in fact I am decidedly in favour of changing the law to overcome the difficulties constituted by the Maguire v. Ardagh decision. The reason I suggest a more indirect investigative role is that I believe there is a distinction between investigation and inquiry. I do this on the understanding that there appears to be a desire to seriously reform the role of the Deputy. If we move, as Fine Gael would suggest, to a unicameral parliamentary system and potentially one with fewer Deputies, there will be a limit to what an individual Deputy can do. I do not need to tell the committee members this as they understand it better than anyone else.

While we should effect a recalibration of power within the constitutional scheme of things and shift power away from the Executive towards Parliament, which is very necessary, I am concerned that this is not quite the same as shifting all of the functions to Parliament, which could in fact inhibit the power it requires to have. An appropriately constituted investigative body, such as I am suggesting, that is connected properly to Parliament as opposed to the Executive, would be better charged with doing the heavy lifting on investigative work and then letting appropriate political inquiries with conclusions be made by parliamentarians.

As to whether one can get over Haughey principles and natural justice questions, I do not think that is necessarily desirable. I would not want to see a parliamentary committee system where natural justice was not present. Equally, the standard that might apply would clearly be different than in a criminal court. This is a matter to be worked out in detail. A renewed power of parliamentary inquiry would have to be exercised very carefully to be effective. Parliament has limited resources and, while it may have improved resources in the future with fewer parliamentarians, that is an aspiration. Being realistic and realising the degree to which a certain professionalism is required in investigative processes, it might be better, as I said in my paper, to - I do not like to use the word - outsource that to a properly constituted or reconfigured Office of the Ombudsman that is stronger in its connections to Parliament.

I described the other investigative bodies - I instanced the Irish Human Rights Commission in particular - as coming under a penumbral remit of the Ombudsman's office and sharing constitutional protection. While that would have to be worked out in legislation, it would be a much better way of dealing with that issue. The Irish Human Rights Commission has undertaken two inquiries since it began, one of which took five years. It then undertook a half inquiry where it suggested there be an inquiry in regard to the Magdalene laundries. When one reads the statutory powers of the commission, they seem very extensive but when one actually looks at what has resulted from that, it is quite unimpressive. There are many reasons for that, not just reasons of funding. Therefore, it seems to me that the framework in which that inquiry power might be exercised more broadly needs to be strengthened in the manner I suggest.

I welcome Mr. O'Connell and his submission. It is certainly different from the view taken in terms of looking at Parliament. I am interested that Mr. O'Connell talked about the Leinster House bubble, which is a pejorative way of looking at people who are working in the system. Most of us are well connected with the mood of the electorate. There is a mood among the general public for fundamental reform, even, to borrow Mr. O'Connell's words, radical reform. We need to undertake a proper analysis and not look for change for the sake of change but how we can actually reform in a way that makes an impact and does a better job. The Labour Party and Fine Gael have laid out their thoughts in a fairly comprehensive way on where we should bring about that change.

I am concerned that the notion Mr. O'Connell is bringing to the table is that somehow it is not really to deepen the constitutional duty of Parliament to hold the Executive and its servants, that is, all agents of the State, to account, and that somehow this should be franchised off either to the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Ombudsman or the Irish Human Rights Commission. These are independent bodies so they cannot be directed by Parliament as to what issues they pick up and what they do not. There is a democratic deficit for the elected representatives of the people in determining what issues should be inquired into unless, in the change we bring about, there is very real change in the capacity of Parliament to direct, which would diminish the independence of those particular officers.

The route the Labour Party and Fine Gael have considered is how to find resources in a time of scarce resources to give capacity to a changed, single Chamber Parliament to do the business we are constitutionally required to do and not trespass upon the constitutional rights of individual citizens in doing that. That is not an easy task to fulfil. There is a view that we have been overly prescriptive in interpreting the Abbeylara judgment and the Maguire v. Ardagh judgment, and that it might have suited people here to say “They have shut us down from that so we do not need to do it”. Certainly, the conclusion my party has come to is that we require constitutional change in that area and we have suggested how we would achieve that.

I take that as an excellent response to the paper. I will move on to Senator Regan.

If I may, I will ask one final question on the issue of the right of Parliament to hold public servants and the Executive to account. How would Mr. O'Connell see that being vindicated in his measures?

It is a very well structured and well argued paper. I have two points to make. On the principle of outsourcing, that is what we have been doing for the past ten years or more, at extraordinary cost to the State, in that we have been outsourcing to another tribunal. That is the type of problem we are trying to address and this paper does not really address it in that regard.

With regard to the Office of the Ombudsman, I believe it should be given constitutional status, as Mr. O'Connell has suggested, but for different reasons. The Ombudsman recently adopted a report on the lost at sea scheme, to give an example, and it was dispatched very quickly by the current Government because it concerned a former Fianna Fáil Minister, although there was no objective basis for doing that. By having a certain constitutional status, perhaps there would be more respect for the findings of the Ombudsman in regard to these types of issues.

It will be interesting to see if the next Government will give her more constitutional power. If Deputy Charles Flanagan or Senator Alex White do not wish to contribute further, I call Mr. O'Connell to respond.

Mr. Donncha O’Connell

In regard to Deputy Howlin's point on accountability, I point out that I did not read the paper but simply spoke to it. However, in the paper I distinguish between what one might call routine forms of accountability as between the Dáil and Seanad. I would argue the Constitution provides for that in a number of respects, although not adequately. I strongly welcome the kinds of proposals that have come from the Labour Party and Fine Gael in the area of more fundamental constitutional reform. Those are long overdue and well worth pursuing. Perhaps I should not have used the term "outsource" because I do not necessarily believe one would be outsourcing something to a parliamentary emanation. I am trying, in a sense-----

Or to a commission of inquiry.

Mr. Donncha O’Connell

Exactly. Tribunals of inquiry were also presided over by judges, which is why they should not be presided over by judges, if judges are as serious as they say about the separation of powers. We could have a serious argument about that.

With regard to the regular accountability mechanisms, in this submission I am confining myself to inquiries that result in the course of normal accountability processes. That is an entirely discrete matter from routine accountability as between the Executive and the Parliament or the Legislature. As I said initially, I premise my comments on a desire to redistribute power constitutionally, as between the Parliament and the Executive, and I hope that those who propose that in opposition are as in favour of it when and if they are in government in the near future. That is my point.

With regard to the point made by Senator Regan about outsourcing and the extraordinary cost to the State, that is a clear reference to tribunals of inquiry. At no stage did I suggest or promote the idea of tribunals of inquiry in my paper. My proposal is probably cost neutral in the sense that the Ombudsman, who carries out inquiries anyway, would carry out inquiries of a different nature. I would not see the independence of those inquiries being compromised if the suggestion that they be carried out was made by Parliament. I fail to see how that could be the case, particularly if the parliamentary committee system is reconstituted so as to have adequate representation from the Opposition. The carrying out of the investigation that would report back to the parliamentary committee could, of course, be done independently. It would also not preclude the Ombudsman or the Office of the Ombudsman or sub-offices under the Ombudsman, such as the Irish Human Rights Commission, from carrying out inquiries of their own and reporting on those to Parliament. That is the reason I identified the deficit identified by the Irish Human Rights Commission, namely, that it does not have a clear channel or route to Parliament that allows it to communicate as effectively as it might with elected representatives on issues of concern to it.

I am mindful of the issues of independence and cost, but suggest that if the Office of the Ombudsman is being reconfigured, it should be reconfigured so as to be much more clearly associated with Parliament and so as to be constitutionally protected in its day-to-day workings. I do not at all suggest that Parliament would not have a direct role. Clearly it has a direct role, but its role is in dealing with the kind of information that has been investigated perhaps more thoroughly by another body. That is the reason I suggest this system as an alternative to parliamentary inspectors. It creates the appropriate distance that should exist between Parliament and its emanations in the exercise of these kinds of powers, which can be quite sensitive.

I thank Mr. O'Connell for attending and giving his views on these matters. As usual, his views are always slightly different, but are much appreciated. By the way, should it be Dr. O'Connell?

Mr. Donncha O’Connell

No, just plain Mr. O'Connell.

I cannot resist mentioning that when senior doctors become consultants, they insist then on being called "Mr."

Mr. Donncha O’Connell

I would never call myself a consultant. I am doing this for free.

We will adjourn. Thank you very much.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.05 a.m. sine die.
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