Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 18 Dec 2007

Register of Electors: Discussion with the Standards in Public Office Commission and Departments of Finance and Social and Family Affairs.

Our work commenced on the register of electors some time ago and representatives of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government attended the committee to discuss the matter. In a way, our work is expanding to address the whole of the electoral issue because an electoral commission is discussed in the programme for Government. In view of the fact that we have already heard from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, we have a visit arranged to Belfast to view their registration system. We have invited three groups with an input into elections. We seek an overall view of Departments and agencies with an involvement in elections. We have asked the Standards in Public Office Commission, the Department of Finance and the Department of Social and Family Affairs to appear before us. The latter is here to discuss the possibility of using PPS numbers with the voter register. We do not have expertise on that and we would not normally have officials from that Department appearing at this committee. I propose to allow the officials from that Department to contribute first, followed by the Department of Finance and the Standards in Public Office Commission. In the event of votes in the Houses we must suspend. We will try to make progress as promptly as possible.

We are joined by Mr. Niall Barry and Mr. Christopher Nolan of the Department of Social and Family Affairs. I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Niall Barry

We have an opening statement and I shall forward it after the meeting. I thank the Chairman for the invitation to address the committee on the subject of PPS numbers. PPS numbers were introduced in the Social Welfare Act 1998 as a unique personal identifier for transactions between individuals, Departments and other agencies specified in the Act. Regarding its use in connection with the electoral register, the Department is not in favour of making it publicly available along with other registration information but there is no reason it cannot be used in collecting, collating and checking data. The Data Protection Commissioner may have other views. He has expressed a desire to address the committee if it seeks to use the PPS number to ensure the accuracy of the number.

The legislation must be examined, particularly that from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, so that we can legitimately exchange data. There is no point in using the number to ensure the data is accurate on the register if one does not keep it up to date on both sides. That would require regular exchange of data, which may be a legal issue.

We note the commitment in the programme for Government to set up an independent electoral commission and a rolling register. We note that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has commenced work on relevant proposals and are happy to engage with it and provide appropriate services. We provide a service indirectly to the Department, via the REACH interagency messaging service, in respect of validation of death information. We could discuss other relevant matters with the Department.

Who has a PPS number in Ireland? Is it from date of birth and how do people who visit Ireland for temporary work purposes acquire one? Is there a cut-off point for registration, such as when a person reaches 18 years of age? Does the ICT section have the facilities to isolate suitable groups? We accept that legislation may be needed.

Mr. Niall Barry

The vast majority of people in the country have a PPS number. We issue them at birth to those born in Ireland. We have an automatic exchange of data with the General Register Office. When someone is born the information is passed to the Department and we allocate a number at that point.

The other way to get a number concerns those who visit the country and need to interact with the public service, practically everyone. They register at our local offices by producing a set of evidence of identity. We check records to ensure we have not already allocated a number to someone with those attributes.

For voting purposes, depending if it is a local or national election, there is a difference between EU citizens and citizens of Ireland? Is there a method of distinguishing nationalities?

Mr. Niall Barry

There is no system of official residence in Ireland. Our accuracy of residency data is not 100% accurate. When someone from another country applies for a number, he or she can give us the country of origin or the country that supplied travel documents and we do not check this. We do record it but I am not sure we can rely on it. It may be the best available record but it is not 100% accurate.

For a while I have been of the view that the worst people to keep track of people are those in local authorities, who we charge with compiling the register of electors. The best people are those in the Department of Social and Family Affairs or the Revenue Commissioners. The Department is probably better because PPS numbers are available to everyone at birth. How would the Department feel about taking on the responsibility for compiling the register of electors? On the basis of overcoming the difficulties of privacy and data protection, it could verify people on the register privately if that is an issue with the Data Protection Commissioner. I suggest inviting the latter before the committee.

Mr. Niall Barry

We are fairly good at tracking people when they come into the system, either when they are born or enter the country. However, no system keeps track of people once they are in the country. Many numbers are allocated to people who subsequently leave the State. The Department has no record of these people. Gaps exist in our capacity.

That can happen both ways. The local authority cannot track that either. If there is a smell of money at the end of it, one has a chance of getting people to turn up. In the case of the local authority it is hassle and people canvassing at election time end up doing the job, as do the Revenue Commissioners or rent collectors in the local authority. There is no incentive for the general public, either in the form of a carrot or a big stick, to sign up for the register of electors. How could the system cope if that responsibility was given to the Department?

Mr. Niall Barry

It is important to note that the Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government stated that ours is a permissive system, not compulsory. That would raise issues, none of which are insurmountable.

Perhaps we should make it compulsory.

I welcome the delegation. In some parts of the country there is 105% registration, when the accepted standard in Europe is 85%. Interestingly enough, Northern Ireland introduced the system we are discussing. A PPS system was introduced and it is triangulated with the use of date of birth and signature. It has hit the 85% mark which is the recommended figure. If one has 85% accuracy one is spot on the money.

As Deputy Hogan stated, we have 34 systems in the country with varying standards and no ring-fenced funding. In most local authorities the franchise office is a Cinderella service located in the bowels of city hall. If a local or general election is taking place, all of a sudden it comes into the light and receives attention. As we progress we should hope to have an accurate system and avoid the situation we have at present whereby counties are over-registered, which is a major problem.

Everyone enters the system through birth or entry into the country. Is it possible to determine what is an active PPS number? By active, I mean the person using it is resident in the State, in the case of an Irish citizen that he or she is either on a social welfare benefit, contributing tax or employed and in the case of a non-Irish or UK national that he or she has been in the country for more than three months. UK nationals are different because of the way variations run through registration schemes. Non-Irish nationals who have been in the country for more than three months are entitled to vote in local elections regardless of citizenship or nationality. Is bringing somebody into the system within three months of arrival to the country an achievable goal?

Mr. Niall Barry

It would be difficult to establish whether a PPS number is active. The Department offers a service to other public agencies and by so doing it can only keep track of those transactions which thereafter affect the Department. One could apply for a number, be given one and use it somewhere else and we would not know. It would be difficult for us to state who is actively using a PPS number except in a social welfare context.

Somebody could arrive from Lithuania and return there within six months. The purpose of what I suggest would be to avoid registering people who have left the State. Irish citizens would be easier to manage. As non-Irish citizens are able to vote in European and local elections we would require a determined tracking procedure.

Mr. Niall Barry

We would need to keep track of who leaves the country and as I stated earlier we or any other Department cannot do this.

When the Department issues a PPS number and a person uses it for taxation purposes there is no linkage back to the Department. Are the Department and the Revenue Commissioners integrated?

Mr. Niall Barry

The Chairman raises an interesting point. As committee members will be aware, the PPS number was originally called the revenue and social insurance, RSI, number and it is still used for these purposes. When Revenue collects PRSI the information is passed to us and we have an active relationship. However, we do not know how the number is used in the health services, local government or any other agency that may use it.

At least there is a linkage with the Revenue Commissioners.

Mr. Niall Barry

There would be a certain amount of linkage but the Deputy raised the issue of having information within three months. We tend to receive earnings data on a yearly basis from the Revenue Commissioners.

I have a few questions. Mr. Barry stated that the vast majority of people have a PPS number. Does he have any idea of the percentage of people who do not have one and is there evidence of the type of person who does not have one? Is there a way of segmenting the PPS database so we can allocate it to a European registry, a local election registry, a general election registry and a referendum registry? How difficult would it be to achieve this? I could be wrong but from listening to Mr. Barry I get the impression he believes using the PPS number would cause insurmountable problems. Does he believe we are barking up the wrong tree or is this worthy of our time?

Mr. Niall Barry

My view is that there is scope to use it somewhere in the process but I do not know where exactly this would begin and end. Issues are raised but I do not believe any of them are insurmountable. It is a question of when and how they are addressed. The Senator may be aware of a Government decision on developing identity management on a national basis. The Department of Finance has been tasked with a particular role.

I know the thinking is that it would be preferred not to have a single number widely used across the entire public sector because of data protection security issues. With regard to this, I see our role as being one of holding core identity data and little else. What we could best do is provide services on the core identity to other Departments rather than introduce the use to which each Department makes of it.

The end result would be the same and we should be able to segment it along the lines outlined. I suggest the best way to do this would be through a system whereby we hold the identity and the new electoral commission would hold the classification categorisation under this. Does this make sense?

It does. Does Mr. Barry have a rough idea of the percentage of people who do not have PPS numbers and the type of people they are?

Mr. Niall Barry

The short answer is "No". We feel the issue may be that people have too many numbers rather than others not having any. I genuinely believe few people do not have a number. An ongoing issue is raised with ensuring that we keep the database as clean as humanly possible and free from duplicates. I heard figures mentioned in the Department of 98% or 99% of people having numbers but I could not stand over these.

The most intense work on the register is usually carried out by political parties when the draft register comes out. Why is the window of opportunity between the publication of the draft register and the deadline for corrections so small? If this window of opportunity was increased we might end up with a more accurate register.

The officials before the committee are from the Department of Social and Family Affairs and are discussing the use of PPS numbers.

The Deputy probably assumed they were officials from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

I was here at the time the meeting was supposed to start.

Exactly, and we were not. Well done.

I hope the officials do not get the impression that we feel the Department of Social and Family Affairs does not have enough to do by putting more work its way. The purpose of the meeting is to establish a better system of registering people to vote and establish whether the Department can be of assistance. The system we have does not work. In my experience, the Department of Social and Family Affairs is one of the most helpful Departments I have dealt with.

The advantage would be that most towns have a social welfare office of some type. It could be tied into improving the system, but the question is how, and the purpose of the meeting is to establish whether it can be done. It is worth examining closely. The Department is in possession of information, particularly on PPS numbers. The Department can track anybody who signs on to social welfare and place him or her on a register without making a big deal about it. I could see a vast improvement being made to the live register of voters through the Department working in conjunction with the Revenue Commissioners on this. How this would be done is another story.

Is a PPS number needed for a passport? I understand Ireland has the highest proportion of passports. Given the nature of our airlines, in some instances a passport is required to fly from Cork to Dublin. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has reported that 80% or 90% of the population has a passport. Are there any links between the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Passport Office? Dates of birth and other information on citizens as passport holders would be available.

Mr. Niall Barry

We discussed with the Department of Foreign Affairs the possibility of allowing limited access to our database to check the identities of passport applicants. To my knowledge, that is the extent of the link.

Mr. Christopher Nolan

We essentially did it by grouping arrears rather than allowing on-line access.

There are regular links, albeit not on-line.

Mr. Niall Barry

We have discussed the possibility of putting an on-line facility in place but I am not sure of the current position.

It is another possibility because most people have a passport? We have found the contribution from the Department of Social and Family Affairs useful because we would otherwise have been in the dark. There seems to be a reasonably positive disposition towards dealing with the issue. Clearly, a number of matters remain to be addressed, including that of the Data Protection Commissioner. Deputy Hogan suggested we meet the commissioner because this is an electoral issue we have not yet investigated. On behalf of the joint committee, I thank Mr. Barry and Mr. Nolan for attending. We will be producing a report in the new year at which stage we may contact them once again because we do not want to report their views inaccurately.

The Department has clients in each constituency but has a template check been conducted between it and local authorities? If, for example, there are 10,000 clients in County Kildare, an investigation could be carried out to determine whether they are all included in the register of electors.

Mr. Niall Barry

That brings up the issue I mentioned regarding data exchange.

What if the problem was overcome?

Mr. Niall Barry

It is in our interests to have as accurate a set of PPS numbers as possible. There is no problem conceptually.

I thank both officials for attending. We appreciate their input into our work.

Sitting suspended at 4.53 p.m. and resumed at 4.55 p.m.

I welcome Mr. Jimmy Doyle, Mr. Jimmy McMeel and Mr. Frank Ryan from the Department of Finance. We are continuing our discussion of the register of electors and the role of the Department in the operation of elections. We received a copy of its presentation but some members may not have had an opportunity to read it.

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

I thank the Chairman for inviting us. My colleagues and I welcome the opportunity to describe to the joint committee the role of the Department of Finance in elections. We have prepared a short note for the information of the committee on the main functions performed by the Department. I understand this document has been circulated to members and I hope they find it useful.

The Department has no role in regard to the electoral register. Its involvement in elections mainly arises from the payment of election expenses to returning officers. The main tasks performed by it in this regard are the preparation of charges orders in consultation with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the arrangement of payments of advances to returning officers from the Central Fund and the settling of returning officers' accounts.

The process for drawing up a charges order is set out in the report circulated to members. Historically, the negotiations with returning officers on the details of the charges order were carried out in the weeks leading up to polling day. This gave rise to extreme pressure on all parties due to the short timeframe involved. The Department decided it would be preferable to put distance between discussions on the determination of rates and the immediacy of an election to remove pressure to reach agreement within a short timeframe on areas of disagreement.

Discussions and negotiations commenced with the Returning Officers Association last year to draw up a model charges order which would set out the structure and level of fees payable in respect of returning officers' expenses in respect of elections and referendums. The negotiations were completed earlier this year and agreement was reached on the model charges order. The fees in the model charges order will be updated each year in line with the CPI and available for any election or referendum that might be held during that year. Certain fees in the model charges order will also be reviewed in a number of years. This means the parties concerned no longer have to get involved in discussions during the weeks leading up to an election. This has resulted in a much more efficient way of drawing up the charges order for an election. It is to the advantage of all concerned because, for example, returning officers are now able to engage polling and counting staff in good time and know well in advance of the election the payment rates for such staff.

Returning officers seek advances from the Central Fund to assist them in making the necessary arrangements for the holding of an election. The Department seeks a breakdown of the advances sought and each request for an advance is examined and vetted to ensure the advance being sought is reasonable. This includes checking the total expenses of each returning officer for the previous election. We made 78 payments by way of advances to returning officers to fund the cost of the 2007 general election. The total amount provided thus far is of the order of €15.8 million. This is not the final cost as there will be balancing items, both payments and receipts, arising from completion of the accounts by the returning officers and our consideration of them. We are also paying €14.7 million to An Post for postal costs incurred. We have made payments of €564,310.06 to the Office of Public Works in respect of printing costs incurred.

The returning officers have been submitting their completed accounts for the general election of 2007. We have recorded the receipt of those accounts and are commencing the necessary checks for integrity and completeness. The Standards in Public Office Commission has indicated that slightly over 300 candidates in the 2007 general election qualified for reimbursement of election expenses. As most candidates qualify for the maximum amount of €8,700, the total cost of 300 reimbursements is just over €2.6 million. All claims for reimbursement of candidates' election expenses are processed in the first instance by the Standards in Public Office Commission which then certifies that the claim is in order and sends the certificate, enclosing details of the amount due and the relevant bank account details, to the Department for payment. Thus far we have processed 181 payments for recoupment of the election expenses of candidates. The total paid under this heading to date is €1,573,676.08. On the income side, we have processed receipts to the Exchequer totalling €15,500 in respect of 31 lost candidate deposits.

The costs of the 2007 general election are a charge on the Central Fund. As such, they have to be included in the finance accounts for 2007. Under section 4 of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Amendment) Act 1993, the finance accounts have to be submitted to the Comptroller and Auditor General by 30 June each year. The total amount paid to all qualified political parties in 2007 was just under €5.5 million. This will increase in 2008 as a result of the Towards 2016 pay increases being made in the coming months.

I thank Mr. Doyle for his presentation. We will now suspend the sitting because there is a vote in the Dáil.

Sitting suspended at 5 p.m. and resumed at 5.15 p.m.

We have heard Mr. Doyle's full opening statement and he sent us an appendix to it. He laid out his role on the electoral register, which is not in his remit. However, many other aspects of election activities are his responsibility, and we would like to get a broad picture of this. Mr. Doyle's document and the appendix are useful and contain most of the information we need from him. Mr. Doyle said €15.8 million was paid for the returning officers for the 2007 election and €14.7 million was paid to An Post, presumably for posting the litir um thoghchán on behalf of candidates and parties. Would that include polling cards?

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

Yes, it includes all of that.

Mr. Doyle mentioned that €560,000 was paid to the Office of Public Works for printing. Was that for the ballot papers?

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

I think that is for ballot papers. I will confirm that.

Most candidates qualify for the €8,700 refund for reimbursement of expenses they have paid. That amounts to €34.7 million.

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

Yes.

I never realised the general election was so expensive. This is the first time we have seen those figures laid out. Could Mr. Doyle forward to us the breakdown of the figure to An Post? That will be divided between the cost of posting the polling cards and the election information, or litir um thoghchán. That will probably be broken down among the major political parties. Most major political parties will have used the polling cards to contact all the electorate and a number of Independents would have done so in individual constituencies. The cost incurred by the State dwarfs the spending by the political parties and candidates. What is spent by the politicians and political parties is relatively small. We will return to this point with our next delegates.

Mr. Doyle might have mentioned in passing the storage of the electronic voting machines. From a committee of which I was a member in the last Government, I understood the charges order in place with the returning officers would previously have covered the cost of each election, but now there is an ongoing cost associated with elections as a result of these storage costs. I am not opening a debate on electronic voting, although I suspect that before we complete our report we will need to examine it. Is there an ongoing cost? Is there a simpler, centralised way of doing this instead of the returning officers having to do it? Who are the returning officers?

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

The county registrars serve as returning officers and in Dublin city, the sheriff is the returning officer. The voting equipment is de facto owned by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The responsibility for the running of elections is devolved to returning officers.

We are talking about general elections, not local elections. Local elections are run by local authorities.

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

We are talking about general elections. The returning officers were charged with the responsibility for storing the voting equipment. They incur ongoing costs in that regard in terms of storage, electricity and the cost of leases. On the charges order, we have had advice from the office of the Attorney General that the existing legislation allows for payment for the storage of the equipment. The returning officers send the bills to the Department of Finance and we approve them after consulting the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, because the latter had issued instructions to returning officers on the storage of the equipment. The charges order covers the ongoing cost of the storage. When we receive the invoices we vet and approve them and, once the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government approves them, we issue the payment to the returning officers.

Maybe this is just a simple matter but I do not understand why most of this is not handled by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, which is responsible for most electoral issues. Mr. Doyle may say it is a policy issue but why does the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government not engage the returning officers and pay the costs of storing the equipment? Why is it the responsibility of the Department of Finance?

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

That is a good question. The reason is that the costs are paid from central funding. The rationale for that is that, in running an election, the expenses of returning officers need to be seen as independent of the election itself. It is a totally independent operation. The legislation provides that all payments are met from the central fund.

I will ask the obvious question on the central fund. I am sure that fund is in a different category from other funds.

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

There are two aspects to the central fund. Some of the money in the central fund is money voted by the Dáil but an element is non-voted, including the salaries of the Judiciary, which are independent of the Oireachtas and the Executive and administered by the Department of Finance.

That €35 million would not have gone through the Estimates process.

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

No. It is non-voted and comes from the Central Fund.

I did not know that.

Mr. Doyle mentioned voting machines. What is the purpose of keeping those machines? Will they ever be used? They involve a huge ongoing cost to the State and a decision should be taken quickly with regard to their future use. Will they be recycled? What will be the end result of storing the machines? People have lost confidence in that system and it has been proven faulty. It is a huge waste of taxpayers' money which could be put to much better use.

The new modern polling booths, introduced in the general election this year do not afford complete confidentiality. They have a see-through pane and there is a division of two or three inches which allows people to be seen putting pen to paper.

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

The Deputy raises two issues which are strictly policy matters for the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. On the first question I refer the Deputy to a parliamentary question, answered by the Minister on 10 October on the future of the equipment. He said the Cabinet committee on electronic voting, established by the previous Government, was considering the next steps to be taken on electronic voting and the counting project in association with the provisions of the agreed programme for Government relating to the electoral reform generally. I am not in a position to help the Deputy any more than that.

The Department of Finance does not have anything to do with the polling booths as they also are a matter for the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the returning officers who organised the elections.

It is an issue that should be looked at. Maybe we can discuss it at a later date.

I saw a number of polling booths in my constituency and did not see what the Deputy saw. Maybe the returning officer in the Deputy's constituency commissioned a certain type of booth. Electronic voting will have to be addressed in our report in the new year. We will have an opportunity, as a committee, to comment on the matter then.

I wish to raise the specific issue of the costs paid to An Post of €14.7 million. I appreciate the cost of electoral cards, of which there were approximately 3 million, and the fact that there were approximately 100,000 postal votes. What else is involved in the figure? Does the Department have a breakdown of the individual items and the cost for each?

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

I do not have those details at present but I will send the Senator a letter with the breakdown he wants.

For the Senator's benefit, the costs would involve polling cards and the election address of each political party. If there are 3 million electors and, say, Fianna Fáil sent out 3 million items the charge would be 55c per item, which would be €1.6 million for each party, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Labour Party. When the polling cards are added in, one can see how the costs mount up. We will, however, receive a full breakdown from the Department.

I return to the voting equipment and how the payments are made from the Department of Finance. Are those payments certified? Is there a certification or approval process? Does the bill come from the returning officer, or the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, to the Department of Finance before the payments are made? Along with Deputy Bannon, I wonder what we are paying for. Is there an approval process to assess the functionality of the equipment? Is it suitable and compatible? Mr. Doyle will probably say much of that is not in his remit but there must be some certification or approval process before his Department pays out. Are we just storing white elephants? Everything else must be certified and approved by Departments and there are checks and balances. Does that apply in this regard? Does somebody sign off on the storage facilities and certify that the facilities are suitable. Does somebody certify that we are storing something which is of value to the State and worth the money the Department of Finance spends on it?

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

The Senator raised two issues. The first, relating to the leases and the storage facilities, is a matter for the returning officer and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. We pay the expenses when they come in. The charges order states that those expenses are paid with the consent of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. When the returning officer sends us an invoice for storage costs we refer it to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Only after that Department has approved it as being in order for payment do we vet it and let it through for payment. The only reason we are involved is that the payments are being made through the Central Fund.

I know it is not the job of Mr. Doyle to comment on the validity of the machines or their purpose, good or bad. However, anybody who wants to buy a young child a computer for Christmas will ask whether it will become obsolete or whether it will have compatibility. If I tried to give my young child a Nintendo machine from five years ago the child would throw it back at me. Given that aspect of technology, certain questions arise as to how compatible the machines will be in the future, if we ever get to use them. It may not be part of Mr. Doyle's brief but how much has been spent in total on purchasing, maintaining and storing the machines to date?

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

Strictly it is not in my brief but I will try to answer the Deputy. I refer him to the parliamentary question answered by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to the effect that the total costs incurred to date, in the development and roll-out of the electronic voting and counting system, were €51.3 million, including some €2.6 million in respect of awareness and education initiatives.

Did Mr. Doyle say the €2.6 million was additional?

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

No. It is included in the €51.3 million. He said, also in a reply to a parliamentary question, that the lifespan of the equipment was 20 years.

Mr. Doyle referred to the charges order. I presume it is the agreement the Department has with the returning officers about costs. Perhaps Mr. Doyle would forward a copy of everything covered in terms of staff, rented buildings and so on. I say this at this risk of offending my returning officer. Of the €15.8 million spent, a dingy hall in my constituency was chosen by my returning officer. It was unsuitable to hold the crowd who attended. It was barely large enough for the count staff. If there is a sum of €15.8 million available why did we get crap facilities to count votes? Is there an incentive for somebody to get the cheapest hall in the constituency that is most unsuitable? That is what we had in my constituency in the last election. I do not wish to offend the owners of the hall, but it was not suitable. I know the officials will say it is not their role. However, they must have some awareness of what happens because charges must be based on the cost of the facilities.

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

I shall send the Chairman a copy of the charges order. It shows the maximum charges that can be charged under all these headings. These were agreed with the returning officers association and approved by the Minister before the election. I shall forward a copy of the charges order.

I do not want to blame the Minister, a constituency colleague, for the joys of the hall in our constituency. I say that in a light-hearted manner.

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

I will forward the charges order which sets out the maximum charges, which was given to each returning officer. After that, I do not know how a returning officer selects a hall. He has a very short timeframe in which to do all this. I am not in a position to comment on how they are charged.

In regard to the polling station staff who are paid for the day, many of them are public servants working in local authorities and HSE staff. Do they have to take a day's leave? Does it interfere with their tax situation? I appreciate this is not Mr. Doyle's responsibility but the Department of Finance should be aware of these issues and, perhaps, he would share his knowledge with us.

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

There are two aspects to the question. The fees that can be paid to staff are set out in the document. The returning officer is an employer in respect of each election. He or she employs staff. I have a document agreed by the Revenue Commissioners and social welfare on what charges are taken in relation to the election study. The returning officer has to register as an employer for the election. I can forward the document agreed by the Revenue Commissioners and social welfare about social welfare payments and tax payments.

Mr. Doyle can forward the documentation to us. Does anybody else have any questions on the Department of Finance aspect?

There is a turnover of returning officers from election to election. What amount of money is allocated to the training of returning officers and what is the duration of training?

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

The charges order, which I will send to the Deputy, sets out what a returning officer can charge to get somebody to train his staff in the running of elections.

We are discussing how we can improve the register of electors and how we can work on it. Can the Department of Finance officials make a contribution to it? What we are being told here are the facts and figures regarding the finances of running an election. I know it is not their responsibility but in their wisdom can any official in the Department make a suggestion to help us to improve it?

The Department of Social and Family Affairs officials union referred to the Department as having some sort of a national identity profile. We were told the Department of Finance was the lead Department in examining this area.

Mr. Jimmy Doyle

So far, the Minister is only involved in election expenses but the Department of Social and Family Affairs officials mentioned that. What I can do is get our colleagues in that division in the Department either to come before the committee or to send a note on what they are at.

Please send it. The presentation and the documentation and the appendix received in advance of the meeting were helpful. If we have any further questions to ask before we draft the report we can correspond with you. Thank you for your time. Unfortunately the late start was beyond our control. We appreciate your time and input here today.

The joint committee went into private session at 5.34 p.m. and resumed in public session at 5.36 p.m.

We will continue our discussion on the register of electors and deal with matters generally in relation to election activity, especially in view of the commitment in the programme for government to establish an election commission. Before we move to the next speaker, Deputy Bannon had indicated that he wanted to make a comment at this stage.

There is a great deal of disquiet among the general public about the cost of storing e-voting machines. They are obsolete and we should have a discussion with regard to their future use. It should be put on the agenda for a future meeting.

Thank you, Senator Coffey. I suggest we address that issue as part of drafting a report at the beginning of the new year. If we are dealing with electoral issues we may as well bite the bullet on that topic and try to get all-party agreement on it.

I welcome the representatives from the Standards in Public Office Commission, Mr. David Waddell and Mr. Moore, to our meeting today. I remind the visitors that members of the committee have parliamentary privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I remind members that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in a way in which it is possible to identify him or her. At this stage I invite Mr. Waddell to make his presentation, a copy of which he forwarded to us yesterday.

Mr. David Waddell

On behalf of the Standards in Public Office Commission I thank you and the committee for the invitation to discuss the commission's role in elections. The commission's remit is determined by the provisions of the Electoral Act 1997. The Act provides for the disclosure of donations received by parties, Members of the Houses, MEPs and candidates at Dáil, Seanad, European Parliament and Presidential elections and also the limitation, disclosure and reimbursement of election expenses at Dáil, European Parliament and Presidential elections. I shall concentrate in this presentation on the Dáil and European Parliament elections. There are no limitation and disclosure provisions for Seanad elections.

The Standards in Public Office Commission understands that the purpose of these provisions is to provide for openness and accountability in the relationships that exist between on the one hand political parties and those who support them and individual politicians, whether that support is delivered by way of financial assistance or otherwise.

The legislation also seeks to achieve a degree of equity in the electoral process by limiting expenditure at elections and providing a system whereby candidates at elections can in certain circumstances recoup expenses. The Standards in Public Office Commission has supervised the provisions of the Act at two Dáil general elections, various by-elections and the European Parliament elections of 2004.

In regard to Dáil and European elections, the Act requires the Standards in Public Office Commission to monitor and, where it considers it appropriate to do so, to report to the chairman of Dáil Éireann, the Ceann Comhairle, on matters relating to the acceptance and disclosure of donations received by candidates, the opening and maintenance of political donations accounts by candidates, the limitation and disclosure of election expenses incurred by candidates' election agents, national agents of parties and by what are known in the Act as other persons and the reimbursement of election expenses to qualified candidates.

The commission also has a key function in providing advice to agents and candidates. We publish guidelines in advance of an election and they are binding on candidates and agents. The commission secretariat also meets political parties and election agents to ensure they are familiar with the requirements of the legislation. We also spend considerable time post-election in assisting agents complete returns.

The commission reports, under section 4(1) of the Act, to the Ceann Comhairle on any matter arising regarding donation statements and election expenses statements furnished to it under the Act. The commission considers each donation statement and election expenses statement. It is the practice of the standards commission to examine all the material furnished by candidates, election agents and national agents. In general, unless there is evidence to the contrary, donation statements and election expenses statements and supporting invoices are accepted as being accurate, subject to any amendments that may be required to correct minor errors or omissions. The Act provides that where the standards commission considers there may be a minor error or omission it may afford the election agent 14 days to rectify the error.

The commission is also required, under the Act, to lay a copy of each donation statement and election expenses statement furnished to it before the Houses of the Oireachtas and to facilitate the inspection and copying, by any person, of these statements. The standards commission regards this requirement as an important element of the legislation, as it facilitates a more broadly based assessment of these statutory returns by interested parties, including, for example, the media, competitors in a constituency and others who are involved on the ground and have detailed knowledge of the level of activity in the case of specific candidate or party campaigns. If such scrutiny gives rise to a valid complaint that a particular return is false or misleading, the standards commission will inquire into the matter and will take whatever further action may be appropriate. It is empowered under section 4(4) of the Act to conduct whatever inquiries are necessary in the discharge of its statutory functions.

In accordance with section 4(1), the standards commission furnished a report to the Ceann Comhairle last Thursday, 13 December 2007 concerning the donation statements and election expenses statements received by it in regard to the Dáil general election of 2007. Copies of the report were laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. The report, which gives details of donations disclosed and election expenses incurred, also makes a number of recommendations as to how the Act might be improved. Many of these recommendations were also included in a report from the commission to the then Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, in December 2003. That document set out a number of recommendations, both general and specific, as to how the legislation might be improved, but none of these was implemented. The standards commission encountered many of the same difficulties with the legislation at the 2007 general election as it had at the 2002 general election. Accordingly, many of the recommendations contained in the review document of 2003 also feature as recommendations in the recent report.

The report disclosed election expenses of €11.08 million. Some 300 candidates qualified for reimbursement of election expenses totalling €2.64 million. Donations disclosed by unsuccessful candidates amounted to €0.53 million. Donation statements from successful candidates are due to be returned by 31 January 2008 and statements from political parties are due by 31 March next. If trends evident in recent years are maintained, the total disclosed by these statements will amount to less than €0.3 million. It is not apparent to the standards commission, or to the general public, therefore, how the parties and candidates finance their election campaigns.

The following are some of the main recommendations contained in the standards commission's report on the 2007 Dáil general election. The proposed establishment of an electoral commission, as set out in the current programme for Government, affords an ideal opportunity for a complete review of the Act. Other reports from the standards commission have pointed out that there is a strong case to be made for a new approach to funding of political parties, for increased transparency in such funding and for greater scrutiny of party expenditure. As the body with responsibility for supervising the Act, the standards commission recommends that it should have a statutory role in reviewing the operation of the Act and reporting on its findings.

During the election there was considerable evidence of and much comment on pre-election spending by parties and candidates. Pre-election spending was expenditure on resources and materials used before the dissolution of the Dáil on 29 April. This expenditure was not required to be accounted for if the materials were not used during the election period. There are legitimate concerns that such front loading of campaign expenditure undermines the effectiveness of the expenditure limits and may create the perception that accounting for expenditure at elections is little more than a paper exercise. The standards commission recommends an election period of two or three months' duration and considers that expenditure on goods, property or services used for electoral purposes during this period should be subject to the statutory expenditure limits and accounted for.

The standards commission considers it imperative that an offence be provided for failure to open a political donations account when required to do so. The use of public funds for electoral purposes is also a major issue which requires to be re-evaluated and clarified in consideration of future changes to the electoral law. The provision of such clarity should be within the ambit of the electoral code. The term "election agent" as defined in the Act causes confusion among candidates and should be amended.

I thank Mr. Waddell for his opening statement. Before I call members to speak, I wish to make one or two comments on foot of his statement. He referred to the limitation and disclosure of election expenses incurred by candidates, election agents and national agents of political parties and other persons. He might clarify the position concerning other persons where an organisation not connected to a party or a candidate incurs expenses on an issue that may or may not help a candidate. I am aware that an organisation must register with the commission if it wants to spend money. Mr. Waddell might elaborate on that and clarify how donations to such a body are accounted for.

Mr. David Waddell

One example of such an "other person" is a third party defined in the legislation. A third party is defined as an individual or a group who accepts a donation, given for political purposes, of greater than €127. If a third party intends to use a donation for political purposes, he or she must register with the standards commission, open a political donations account and make certain returns to the commission. The difficulty with that provision from the point of view of the standards commission is that in the context of the definition of a third party receiving a donation given for political purposes, the motivation for giving the donation must be known. In one case a group campaigning for children's rights successfully argued before the commission that no donation it had received was given for political purposes, and there was no evidence that any such donation was given for political purposes.

Does it come under the commission's remit in terms of an "other person" if no donation is received.

Mr. David Waddell

It would not in that case. However, there were counter arguments that this particular organisation was actively soliciting donations for the purpose of campaigning for children's rights. That would be embraced by the definition of political purposes under the terms of the Act.

Does the commission's remit cover expenditure on referenda?

Mr. David Waddell

No, it does not.

It covers general elections, by-elections and presidential election but not referenda.

Mr. David Waddell

Yes, and it covers European elections but it does not cover local elections.

I must raise the obvious point, which has been in the public arena, off and on. Ryanair does what I consider to be an amount of political advertising directed against the Taoiseach and some Ministers. In every respect, that is political advertising but it does not seem to come within the remit of the Standards in Public Office Commission because nobody makes donations to Ryanair. Therefore, people can spend any amount of their own money - millions as the case may be - on an election campaign but it does not come within the commission's remit because they did not receive donations. I am not criticising but I am citing the Ryanair case as a very public example because it does political advertising all the time.

Mr. Aidan Moore

There is a separate, additional requirement under section 31(7) of the Act whereby if a body intends to incur election expenses it must notify the Standards in Public Office Commission of its intention to incur those expenses. Then it is required to submit an election expenses statement. The committee will see from the report we did on the recent general election that nine such bodies registered.

What are those bodies called?

Mr. Aidan Moore

We refer to them as "other persons". They came in under section 31(7) of the Act. As Mr. Waddell mentioned earlier, there are third parties, which are defined in the Act as a body or an individual, that get a donation for political purposes. There are other persons, in section 31(7) of the Act, who propose or intend to incur election expenses. A body or an organisation might be required to register both as a third party and as another person. For instance, if it got a donation to spend money to incur election expenses it would have a double registering requirement.

Mr. David Waddell

Prior to the election, there was correspondence between the Standards in Public Office Commission and the company mentioned by the Chairman.

We are not breaching any confidentiality because their advertisements are very public. Therefore, if we have a referendum next year on Europe, vested interests for or against the campaign could spend any amount of funds yet they would not come within the commission's remit if they are spending their own resources.

Mr. Aidan Moore

Yes, provided they do not accept a contribution which is given for political purposes.

When an organisation spends its own resources it will not come within the commission's remit. There is gap from that point of view as well.

I wish to ask one other question and I will take issue with the commission on this point. It concerns the €11 million that 300 candidates spent on the election campaign. Mr. Moore said it is not apparent to the commission or to the general public how the parties and candidates finance their election campaigns because he suspects the amount of donations is quite small. I do not like that sentence because it should be absolutely apparent to the commission that all these campaigns were financed by donations below the level that is required to be disclosed. That is very clear to me. Mr. Moore should elaborate on that if there is an innuendo that some other funds were used in the campaign that were not apparent to the commission. Does he take my point?

Mr. David Waddell

No such innuendo is intended by the commission, Chairman.

Yes, but I can read it there. To me it should be fully apparent that they are below the disclosure level.

Mr. David Waddell

There is no imputation in that sentence of any wrongdoing on the part of parties. Indeed, if there was, the commission would have acted on the matter. In this presentation the commission has tried to point out that if the purpose of the legislation is to create a regime of openness and transparency concerning the funding of parties, then it is not succeeding. Prior to the election there was some evidence of at least one party actively soliciting donations at just below the disclosure threshold.

What is wrong with that? I do not even know which party it was.

Mr. David Waddell

I can tell the committee that it was the Progressive Democrats. The party leader at the time said this was within the spirit of the Act. The Standards in Public Office Commission would not agree with that, if the thrust of the Act is to create a regime of openness and transparency. This legislative regime has been the subject of some international criticism. A group of international observers was present here for the election, representing the Office of Democratic Institutions and Human Rights of the OSCE. They also felt that the legislation requires renewal and that greater efforts should be made to render more transparent how parties fund their campaigns. That is in line with best international practice and simply serves to improve public confidence in the democratic process, which is something that is dear both to the commission and Members of the Oireachtas.

Mr. Waddell mentioned a report laid before the Ceann Comhairle and the Oireachtas Library last week. It would be helpful if the commission could supply each Member of the Oireachtas with a copy of that report. I have not seen it yet, and I am the Chairman of the committee. There may be five or six copies of the report in the Oireachtas Library but unless Members go out of their way to visit it, they will not see it either. In the short term, the commission should make copies of the report available to members of this committee because we have not seen it yet.

Mr. Aidan Moore

We e-mailed a copy of the press release.

Yes, just the press release but we would like to see the report. We would like to see what we spent and what our agents spent on our behalf.

Mr. David Waddell

There is a link in that press release to the web version of the report.

We would like to get a copy of it.

Mr. Aidan Moore

If the committee wants a hard copy we can certainly provide it.

Politicians are asked to comment on the report but they may only have seen the commission's press release. They may not have had an opportunity to see the full report.

Mr. Aidan Moore

The report comes to almost 100 pages with various appendices on what candidates spent.

That is why I said it is particularly difficult to get it off the website if one had to print 100 pages. Has the report been published in book form?

Mr. Aidan Moore

We have printed a limited number of copies.

We do not need glossy covers, just the contents for this committee which is examining the matter.

Mr. Aidan Moore

We can certainly do that.

Perhaps I took it up wrongly, but Mr. Waddell talked about front loading elections. The commission's timespan is from the time an election is called until polling day, and that is the period for which it wants all these returns. Is the commission anxious to get its hands on the expenditure prior to the date the election is called? Mr. Waddell said money is being spent by candidates prior to that point, which is not as open and transparent as during the campaign. In fairness to candidates, many of them are new in the field and are competing with high-profile Ministers and Deputies. They do have to spend some money to get themselves into the public arena. If they were looking over their shoulders all the time at the guidelines during the campaign, including election agents and others telling us what or what not to do, it would be more cumbersome in the run up to an election. While we all agree that there should be openness and transparency, money spent by candidates prior to an election being called is being accounted for and the details are available.

I have never come across any officials from the Standards in Public Office Commission during a campaign. What role do the commission's officials play in monitoring how candidates behave themselves during the campaign, or do they have a role in that regard?

Mr. David Waddell

The Deputy has raised two questions. With regard to pre-election expenditure, the commission has expressed concerns about this front loading of campaigns. We are talking in particular about national billboard campaigns and some clearly expensive expenditure on the part of parties. The commission feels this is clearly electoral expenditure which ought to be accounted for if the purpose of the legislation is to account for election expenditure. The commission said that in order to create a level playing field between parties and also candidates. If a high-profile Minister is clearly spending resources for electoral purposes during the pre-election period, that would also have to be accounted for. That would be one way of redressing the balance between new candidates and high-profile officeholders to which the Deputy referred.

With regard to our role during an election campaign, the commission has seven staff. We do not monitor the campaign nationwide nor do we count posters or anything like that. If somebody alerts us to a difficulty, we will examine a particular constituency. We collect samples of election literature and we also examine samples of election posters, press briefings and advertising to ensure they are accounted for post-election.

Transparency and accountability should be encouraged at all times. I have a democratic concern and I agree with the Chairman's impression of the statement of interests. My reading of the commission's recommendations in its report on the election is that it has serious concerns about the current system. I am inclined to agree with the Chairman that many people make contributions to candidates that are below the threshold but they are recorded and accounted for by political parties and are available for viewing. If those people are made to feel guilty for engaging in the political process and supporting a political party or candidate, we will be going down a dangerous road regarding the democratic process. A balance must be struck. The commission recommends the election period should be increased to two or three months but that will lead to front loading of donations before that deadline as well. Where do we cry "Stop"? We need to be careful to strike a balance. If we are that concerned about it, perhaps we should examine whether political parties should be wholly funded by the State on the basis of their size. That would be the subject of a major debate. The commission is examining the issue from one perspective, which I fully appreciate, but its reports show candidates have been transparent and accountable. Everybody sees the billboards that are erected prior to elections and they reflect the size of the parties, which is very democratic. I do not have a problem with that.

Mr. David Waddell

The commission points out that a certain amount is spent and accounted for during the election period. In the last election, it was estimated by some experts that the total expenditure on the election was double that spent during the election period. The only information we have regarding donations to parties and candidates puts the income side of the sheet at a much lower level so there is a huge gap. The commission is pointing out that there is a question mark over this. It does not say people are breaking rules but it is pointing out the rules do not give a full picture of income and expenditure. There are international recommendations such as those of the Council of Europe and political parties ought to be obliged to furnish accounts to an independent body for scrutiny but that does not happen in this jurisdiction. The commission feels that to further enhance confidence in the democratic process, such a balanced approach is necessary.

Must Oireachtas Members furnish a statement of interests to the commission? It is not mentioned in the report.

Mr. David Waddell

An annual statement of interests is required under the ethics legislation.

There is confusion about this. If one has a nil statement of interests, one must return it to the Oireachtas but if one has something to declare, there is a problem. This was not referred to in the report. We feel we are overloaded by all these statements. We must send a donations statement to somebody next January and an ethics statement to somebody else around the same time.

Mr. David Waddell

A great deal of form filling is involved. There are separate requirements under ethics legislation and electoral legislation. Because the committee asked for a presentation on the electoral legislation, I did not deal with the ethics requirements. However, there is a requirement on every elected person to send a statement of interests to the commission by 31 January next.

New Members might note that.

Mr. David Waddell

Members will receive correspondence about this. January is a difficult period and the commission is aware the Houses are not sitting. We hope to be in touch with everybody shortly both by post and e-mail to try to explain these requirements. The statement of interests is sent to the standards commission and for the sake of simplicity the commission had suggested that the statement of nil interests should also be sent to it. However, the Committee on Members' Interests for Seanad Éireann objected to this process and, therefore, under the current regime such statements are sent to the Clerk of Seanad Éireann.

The first item on our agenda was an EU regulation on the funding of political groupings within the European Parliament. A large amount of funding is provided by the European taxpayer to these groupings for expenditure for information purposes as opposed to electoral purposes. I do not ask Mr. Waddell to analyse the regulation but at European level the notion of politicians and parties engaging in significant expenditure on an ongoing basis to disseminate information is positive and it is part of the established European system. Is it recorded under election expenditure?

Mr. David Waddell

Not the funding of European political groups. The commission deals with returns under both the party leader's allowance legislation and Exchequer funding for political parties. Funding is available under that legislation for research and development for parties and various other items.

Perhaps this is where the front loaded expenditure was incurred.

Mr. David Waddell

I do not think so. If that were the case, that would be contrary to the terms of the Electoral Acts. It is explicitly forbidden to use Exchequer funding for electoral purposes.

Much of the expenditure that was front loaded prior to the calling of the election was used to promote candidates through newsletters to highlight their work and so on. That may be considered to be within the commission's remit for electoral purposes.

Mr. David Waddell

The commission accepts this is a difficult issue and it went into it in detail in its 2003 report. Because we only briefly mentioned the issue in this presentation, that does not mean that we fail to accept there are complex issues.

We have found this useful and we look forward to receiving the statement of interests. The electoral register issue was our opening topic and given the proposals relating to the electoral commission, the committee must examine all aspects. The Departments of Finance and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the commission and various other groups have a role in the running of an election. A number of bodies will remain independent but the electoral commission may be given a wider brief rather that only compiling the electoral register. We will return to this in the new year. I thank Mr. Waddell for his attendance.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.10 p.m. sine die.
Barr
Roinn