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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 19 May 2009

Business of Joint Committee.

The first item is the minutes of the meeting of 12 May. Are they agreed? Agreed.

The liaison committee of the working group of committee chairmen has advised that only one of our two travel applications can be sanctioned and that a maximum of three members may travel. Have the convenors agreed that we attend the Edmonton conference in June and not the one in Washington in October and that three members will be sent instead of four? It has been agreed with the clerk. We are sending three members to the Edmonton conference in June and the trip to Washington is not being approved.

Where is the conference in June?

It is in Edmonton in Canada. The names of the members attending have already been submitted to the clerk. Deputies Scanlon and Bannon and Senator Glynn have already put forward their names. Sanction for travel applications for later in the year is being withheld at this stage.

The first item of correspondence is document 2009/456, a Europe-world newsletter. It is noted.

The next item is a letter on the distribution and storage of sludge from the Ringsend wastewater treatment plant by way of follow-up to our queries raised at our January meeting with Dublin City Council. We had received correspondence from people on the Carlow-Wicklow border who were concerned about where the sludge was being stored, etc. The reply states the city council is satisfied that the system in operation is fully compliant. It also states it is planned to tender for a new contract later this year. This is to be in place by next April when the current contracts for the transport and reuse of the bio-solids will expire. This will present an opportunity for the council to re-examine the whole issue. It is important to note that.

The next item is a newsletter on environmental issues, which we will note. The next is an invitation to a seminar on a book entitled The Spirit Level from 5 p.m. to 6.30 p.m. on 4 June at the Royal College of Surgeons. We will note the invitation and it is a matter for individual members if they wish to attend. Item 2009/460 is a European newsletter, which we will note. Item 2009/461 is a ministerial press release from the Department in connection with holding the by-elections, which we will note. Item 2009/462 is a letter of thanks from the representative of Just Forests who attended last week’s meeting. Those of us who were here found it interesting, so we will note that.

The following circulars from the Department to city and county managers have been copied to the committee: WSP 4/09 on water conservation guidance; all eight of the housing division circulars that have been issued in 2009 so far; LG(P) 06/09, amendment of the Local Government Act, 2001 (Section 161) Order 2004; press office notice of nine circulars issued by the Department in April 2009; and LG 08/09, guidelines on the role and operation of county and city development board social inclusion measures working groups.

The next circular is EL 5/09, the incentivised scheme for early retirement in local authorities, which is in line with the circular from the Departments on the same issue. Section 12 attracted my attention. It states:

It is a general condition of this Scheme that persons availing of the Scheme will not be eligible for re-employment in the same part of the public service. In order to ensure compliance with the provisions of the form of acceptance, local authorities must inquire of relevant future job applicants if they have availed of the terms of this Scheme. If the person was formerly employed in a local authority and availed of the early retirement scheme, they are ineligible for subsequent re-employment in a local authority. However, if the person retired from another area of the public service under a similar early retirement scheme and is subsequently re-employed in a local authority, the local authority must inform their former employer to this effect.

This is so they can calculate pension arrangements between them. I am concerned about this issue and would like clarification from the Department of Finance. The scheme seems to have built into it that a person can avail of the scheme, leave on his or her full pension and then take up part-time or full-time employment in another arm of the public service. I am shocked to read this. I hope I am not interpreting it properly. It states that former employees are not eligible for re-employment in the same part of the public service, and clear arrangements are made so that if a person taking up a post in a local authority has availed of this incentivised scheme for early retirement, the local authority must notify the other party so they can make the relevant pension calculations. If jobs are available somewhere in the public service and if people are going out on full pension and simply returning to another section of the public service, it defeats the purpose of the scheme. They could go from the local authority to the HSE or similar. I am shocked at this. Perhaps I have it wrong but I am reading what I am reading. That is all I can say.

I agree with the Chairman. I was a member of a local authority when a similar scheme was introduced in the 1980s and I do not think that at that time one was allowed to go to another arm of the public service. The only thing I was concerned about at that time was that it was very good workers who took early retirement and went into the private sector. I am sure the same thing will happen this time. However, I agree with the Chairman and I would be unhappy if those were the terms of the scheme.

Another area of concern, which I have raised with the Minister, is that it should not be all foot soldiers in the local authorities who leave under this scheme. There should be a certain number from middle management because that is where the costs lie and where the waste is. I would be annoyed if it was all clerical officers who were allowed to retire while the higher grades were left.

Perhaps at our next meeting the Chairman will allow us time to debate the circular and the response from the Department.

I agree with Deputy Brady. In the past we lost good people to early retirement in local government. Having said that, there are many good young people whom we must consider. We should certainly seek clarification of the circular to ensure we are reading it correctly.

We will write to the Departments of Finance and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to seek immediate clarification.

Is there a closing date for applications? The timeframe involved is quite short.

Expressions of interest can be made from 14 May to 14 June.

That is a short period.

It also states that in all cases decisions on applications will be made no later than 14 September. Less than four weeks remain to submit an application.

Half of the circular on the incentivised scheme for early retirement is geared to the facilitation of persons who wish to avail of the full scheme to move to other Departments in order that they can take up employment. Worse still, under point 15, it is stated that where there is a business need for a person to re-engage in the same part of the public service, an individual with skills who has availed of the scheme can be employed with the Department's sanction. The circular then states that to monitor this aspect, a person must give his or her PPS number to a centralised database. It is geared to establishing a system in order that the pension abatements can be matched between where a person started and finished. About six sections deal with facilitating persons availing of the scheme to take up employment in other areas if the need arises. In exceptional circumstances they can go back to their old jobs having made use of the scheme. It is a sham with so many looking for work that half the circular deals with facilitating persons who wish to avail of the full scheme to come back.

I will summarise for Deputy Bannon. In our correspondence we received a copy of the circular from the Department to all city and county managers on the incentivised scheme for early retirement. It states that where a person avails of the scheme, he or she will not be eligible for re-employment in the same part of the public service. The clear implication is that a person can avail of the full incentivised early retirement scheme and if a vacancy arises in another arm of the public service, he or she can take it up. It even states that in exceptional circumstances, a person can go back to his or her old job if he or she obtains sanction from the Department. It is setting up a database for the PPS numbers of those who avail of the scheme. There is a clear expectation that those who avail of it will subsequently take up employment in other areas of the public service. It defeats the whole purpose of the scheme.

It is wrong and immoral for that to be happening.

I am reading the circular, a page and a half of which deals with facilitating those coming back. The scheme is supposed to be about getting people out but it is written to get them back in. It defeats the whole purpose.

Even persons who had reached retirement age or retired on reaching 60 years of age, having completed 40 years' service, were brought back into organisations as consultants. This has happened in instances in my county. The people concerned were not foot soldiers but at the higher grades.

We will write to the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Finance to ask them to immediately clarify our understanding of the circular.

On a point of information, can the Chairman confirm, deny or clarify if persons who retired from the ESB or other public bodies and are working in local authorities are in receipt of a pension from that body and a salary from the relevant local authority in which they are employed?

The answer to that question is that we all know of such cases.

The people concerned have a pension.

Yes and they are building another one in the second State body.

We all know of such cases.

Is that practice not unfair?

It is happening. I know of such cases, as I am sure do all members.

I propose that the Chairman also request the Department or the Minister to extend the deadline set.

Yes, it is very tight.

Yes, I will do that.

The deadline should be extended to the end of July at least.

We will have a fuller discussion on this topic at next week's meeting. This discussion shows the value of receiving a copy of all circulars issued by the Department to local authorities.

A letter should also be sent to the local authorities to ascertain if what I stated is the practice in them.

We will discuss the matter next week and can then follow up on it. We might receive useful information from the Department of Finance or the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. We will take up all the suggestions made next week.

The next item is circular 7/09 on the implementation of savings measures on public service numbers which concludes the correspondence received.

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