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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 6 Jul 2010

Investment in Infrastructure: Discussion with Construction Industry Representatives

The next item on the agenda is a presentation from the Construction Industry Council. I welcome to the meeting representatives from the council, including: Mr. Eamon Timoney, chairman of the Construction Industry Council; Mr. Tom Parlon, director general of the Construction Industry Federation; Mr. P. J. Rudden, vice president of Engineers Ireland; Mr. John Curtin, senior vice president of the Society of Chartered Surveyors; and Mr. Paul Keogh, president of the Royal Institute of Architects of Ireland, RIAI. I thank all for attending today's meeting.

There will be presentations from the delegation followed by a question and answer session. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary rule to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence given to this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise or make charges against any persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

We must leave the room at approximately 4.15 p.m. because there will be a short select committee meeting at 4.30 p.m. There must be a change in the recording facilities. There is a technical item to be dealt with by the select committee dealing with a European convention and the Minister is due in at 4.30 p.m. on that issue. Will there be one presentation for the group?

Mr. Eamon Timoney

There is one presentation for the group but we might list the ten objectives of the manifesto right at the end.

We are in Mr. Timoney's hands.

Mr. Eamon Timoney

I thank the Chairman for allowing us the opportunity to make a presentation to the committee. I may have omitted one of the members inadvertently, Deputy Phil Hogan, and if I did so I apologise. The Chairman listed the personnel representing the CIC so I will not go through them again. We have apologies from the Building Materials Federation but Mr. Parlon will deal with that issue.

We have a submission and I assume it has been distributed to members. On 21 June this year in the Aviva Stadium we launched a manifesto, Building a Better Ireland: Investing in Infrastructure and the Built Environment to Support Ireland's Smart Economy. In the Construction Industry Council we see that as a blueprint for moving Ireland out of recession. There is also need for us to understand what is happening on the ground as well as looking forward in the coming years at what needs to be done.

We have come a long way since the peak of the construction output in 2007, which was €37 billion. That is now around €10 billion for 2009-10 and seems to be heading for, maybe, €7 billion in 2011. We have seen job losses in the construction sector and allied industries of more than 200,000 and, unfortunately, those redundancies continue to occur in labour, trades and professions. More than half the job losses nationally are related, directly and indirectly, to the construction sector. In the professional side of the industry, salary cuts of 35% are not uncommon. Tender prices are at their lowest for years, at 33% and lower. The construction industry has made a competitiveness jump and now is not the time to reduce capital spending in the sector. We are also trying to compete overseas, with the assistance of Enterprise Ireland, and we need a stable platform or base from which to launch that initiative.

I have included a graph of construction output showing the build-up from 1994 through the peak of construction output in 2007 to where we are now heading. If current predictions are true, the line is still heading downward. The dotted line we see on the graph at around €18 billion is the average spend in EU countries on construction output. Currently, we are heading for 6% of GDP, which is less than €10 billion. Ireland still has an infrastructural deficit, despite what we heard on the radio this morning and recently and, therefore, we should be above average and certainly not below average in our spending.

The public capital programme forms a part of construction output. The 2010 budget indicates average spending of approximately €5.5 billion per annum in the period 2011-16. This is down from about €10 billion previously. Only about 65% of that is spent directly in construction. The reality is quite different. We have heard of vital public projects cancelled or postponed. Since 2009, the existing contractual commitments are being cleared out and we have seen very few new projects start. This year we are seeing the finishing out of projects like the Aviva stadium and road schemes such as the M3, phases 3 and 4 of the N9 and the N8. These are all finishing and there are no projects to replace them.

Of great concern to us is that little planning or design work has been done in the past 18 to 24 months.

Mr. Timoney could go back further than that.

Mr. Eamon Timoney

Possibly. There is little in the pipeline of work resulting from planning or design for professional, contracting or supplying companies. This is leading to a lack of confidence in the sector. With little real movement on the National Development Programme, this will have a catastrophic impact on the economy. We need to act immediately.

We could ask where are we headed. The construction output is falling towards €7 billion by 2011, or 6% of GDP. We are seeing serious under-spending in the different Departments. I will look at water services in particular, which are the responsibility of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. There is serious underspending there, which must be of concern, not just to the construction sector but to the officials. Construction output spending of 6% is only half of the EU average. We should spend more than that. If we head towards €7 billion, we will probably see another 120,000 job losses in the construction and allied sectors.

I have used a graph to show the capital project lead-in time. I have done this for two reasons. First, a very small percentage is spent in the first three years of any major capital project to get the project shovel-ready. That spending has not occurred for at least 18 months or more and there is no sign of it occurring over the next year or two. We will not have projects shovel-ready to get them to construction. Second, a serious lead-in time is needed for a project. The graph shows at least nearly five years to get a capital project from ground zero to shovel-ready and people on the ground. We need to ensure that planning and design work advances. We also believe there are not enough projects, even on the shelf, to fill the gap, because of the lack of design over the past two years.

We need to look at public private partnership schemes. Those schemes are not attractive to outside investors. We must remind ourselves that three or four years ago nearly 40 European banks were involved in funding PPP schemes. That number is now fewer than ten. We are competing against other EU countries for finance, interest from large overseas construction companies and investors. A credibility gap is creeping into the Irish PPP sector. If the situation regarding design spend and planning of projects continues we will see the remaining design teams decimated and contracting capacity collapse.

This issue has received considerable attention in recent weeks, particularly since we launched the manifesto on 21 June. The Irish Times wrote, “Major project delays slowing recovery”. We firmly believe that. This is the first time in my professional career I have seen David Begg of the ICTU and Danny McCoy of IBEC agree on something, which is the need for Government to act resolutely on capital spending.

I use the water services investment programme as an example of the gap between an announced programme and the reality. What the public hear is that more than 130 projects are currently in progress, with a value of €1 billion and 340 contracts to be done over the next two or three years, at a value of €1.8 billion. The reality from e-Tenders, which is the official tendering mechanism for public projects, is that only €60 million was awarded in March and April, the two critical months for getting projects to construction over the summer period, which is Ireland's building period. In January and February the amount was €45 million. No contracts were awarded in 28 of the 35 local authorities.

There are various reasons for this. One is that local authorities do not have matching funding. Whereas previously, a local authority might have had to put up between 20% and 30% of a project, that percentage is now moving to a 60/40 ratio. Government needs to look at how local authorities fund projects. We urge central Government funding of 90% or even 100% of local authority projects.

There is a lack of a policy document on solid waste services. There are policy documents from the late 1990s but there is a lack of clarity, leading to a lack of investment in the public and private sectors. Unfortunately, the EU obligatory targets for 2013 and 2016 will not be met. A four year derogation already applies to those targets so no further derogation is available to Ireland. The estimate of the fines for missing those targets is €50 million per annum. There is a serious shortfall in solid waste services at present.

The OPW has done very good work on flood relief but increased funding is needed to control catchment flooding. All of us, particularly those of us from rural counties, appreciate that local authorities have neither the staff nor the finances to do even basic roadside drainage.

There are serious transportation deficits in the Dublin region. There are certainly serious deficits in parts of the country, particularly the south and west. We will see those on a later map. At present, only 33% of the transport plan has been delivered.

I know that education, skills and health are not part of the Department's brief. However, this shortfall in spending is also occurring in the other Departments. Some 1,000 schools need major capital works. If the school population projections for 2020 are correct, a further 625 schools will be required. Our spending on education is only 4.7% of GDP which is below the OECD average. The reality is that we are not investing enough in our future.

On health, the then Minister, Deputy Martin, said our health care system must reflect our national values. The ESRI healthcare report highlights the need for ongoing capital commitments. The reality is that of 500 primary care centres targeted by the HSE in 2000, we only delivered 200, something which we have addressed in our manifesto. I refer to health and education because there is currently no counterpoint to the lack of capital expenditure on other social and capital infrastructure sectors. It is of serious concern.

The CIC position is that we questioned the wisdom of withdrawing investment in infrastructure. We included photographs in our submissions to demonstrate what we mean by infrastructure. This would lead the wider economy from recession to recovery. For every €1 billion invested the actual cost to Government, through the various taxes levied on salaries and expenditure, is €490 million, and we get the benefit of infrastructure. Every €1 billion cut from capital expenditure costs all of us half that amount in welfare payments, etc., but we get no infrastructural gain. We question the wisdom of withdrawing that investment. The lack of a real capital programme will impact on jobs and the domestic economy. The capital programme of €5.5 billion, which has already been halved, is not a stimulus. However, we see it as an investment for the future which we implore people not to reduce any further.

The Taoiseach said that the lesson from the past is that by providing a clear sense of direction by setting out a long term vision and set of goals and prioritising the resources needed to achieve them we will secure immediate gains from increased confidence and a determination to deliver. We now believe that the time is right to prioritise the resources needed for our capital infrastructure.

The photographs I have included show a mix of infrastructural projects that have been built by the State over the past number of years. They include hospitals, visitors centres, colleges, schools and libraries. On the map of Ireland we have included are various road schemes which are not all dual carriageways or motorways. The roads which have been built link Dublin to the major cities. There is a significant road infrastructure gap in Rosslare, Waterford, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Sligo, which covers the Atlantic corridor and the west of Ireland.

The next photograph shows some of the rail infrastructure, bridges and toll bridges we have built. The water infrastructure we have provided is in Mutton Island and Cork and includes the gas infrastructure distribution network and water supply schemes in Wexford. On waste management, the largest bale waste landfill in Europe is in Athurstown in Kill which is closing at the end of the year. It also includes gas utilisation, lichee treatment and other things we need. Flooding, as I mentioned earlier, does not just affect houses and people, it also affects our primary arteries, such as was the case with the road flooding in Clarecastle.

We have bypassed a lot of towns and villages with the road infrastructure over the past number of years. There are a lot of local amenity schemes needed in those towns which would employ local labour. Such schemes are labour intensive and we could examine the social amenity side of these towns and villages to determine what can be done to their streetscapes.

We will circulate the executive summary of our manifesto. There are ten primary points. Mr. Keogh may wish to discuss them.

Mr. Paul Keogh

I can do so but I suggest we give the committee time to question us on our presentation.

Mr. Eamon Timoney

To conclude, by showing the committee the photographs we want to emphasis that when we refer to building a better Ireland it is what is in the photographs. The extension of the schemes is needed in the rest of the country. I thank the Chairman and members.

I thank Mr. Timoney for a clear and easy to follow presentation. We will take all the comments and then revert to the delegates.

I welcome the delegates. Seán Lemass is famously reported to have said, "If you can tell me the number of bags of cement you sold last year I will let you know the state of your economy". It is as true today as it was in the 1960s. Having been Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism I had the privilege of being closely involved with a number of major infrastructural projects in this country in recent years, notably the Aviva stadium, the National Convention Centre, the Wexford opera house and the interpretive centre on the cliffs of Moher, among others.

There was a general view throughout my period as Minister that the private sector would drive the construction industry. In general terms the delegates might agree that during the period of the Celtic tiger it did so and was in a position to do so. They might also agree that it is not in the same strong position today and that given the changed circumstances Government policy has to be adapted in order to suit today's circumstances.

It is in that context that I would like to ask the delegation about public private partnerships. During my time as Minister the experience I had with them was one of deep frustration. During the course of the planning and development of the National Convention Centre my heart and that of the Secretary General of the Department were broken by rules, regulations and red, white, black and green tape which seemed to obstruct us at every turn. It was a miracle that we delivered on the centre. It was not because the path was smoothed by a Department or agency or anybody else, rather, it was through pure perseverance, which I do not say boastfully, that we finally succeeded in putting the centre in place. I have no doubt it will be a huge success.

We know it will not now be possible for the private sector to be the main driver of the construction sector, important though it is, and that a headline has to be given by Government if we are to instill confidence in the sector again. In those circumstances, would the delegation agree that it is now incumbent on Government and, in particular, the Department of Finance, to examine the structure and rules governing public private partnerships, not just in the context of the European stability pact but also in the context of smoothing the way for the development of major infrastructural requirements and developments in the State, such as the National Concert Hall, the National Theatre and other infrastructural works of a more basic kind which are required by our population?

In that respect, would the delegates consider entering into negotiations with the Department of Finance with a view to seeing how major infrastructural requirements might be advanced by the State in partnership with the private sector in order to determine how they can provide the necessary stimulus for the private sector and provide vital infrastructure for the State?

I thank Mr. Timoney for a precise and clear presentation. It is all spelled out in a readable form. He said on 21 June the delegates launched the build a better Ireland campaign and that now is not the time to reduce capital expenditure. Yet, in the report it is clear that capital expenditure has decreased from €37 billion at the peak to €10 billion now and is projected to be €7 billion or less next year.

It is a coincidence that our guests come before us on the day when a report in the Irish Independent indicates that 40 major construction projects have been abandoned and will not proceed. Many of these projects relate to the west and one in particular is relevant to my constituency. I refer to the Galway city outer bypass which was some way from proceeding in any event as a result of a number of objections and legal challenges. It would be interesting to discover how much money has already been spent on these projects in the planning stage. A colossal amount was spent on planning the Galway city outer bypass but it appears that this project — which may well have been blocked by An Taisce, the Green Party and others — is now a dead duck. I do not know whether the threatened court challenges relating to the project will now even proceed.

Deputy O'Donoghue is correct to state that it will be difficult for public private partnership projects to proceed in the future. As he stated, the lead in this matter must come from the Government. However, there is not much sign that such a lead will be forthcoming, particularly in light of the announcements made earlier today. Will our guests comment on the 40 projects, some of which had reached an advanced stage of planning or others in respect of which construction was ready to commence, that have been abandoned?

I welcome the representatives from the CIC and thank them for their presentation. Ireland is in a dreadful mess and our guests are seen, to some extent, as having caused that mess. The question arises as to how we can we work with our guests in order to find a solution to our difficulties. If our guests are seen to be part of the problem, how can we ensure that we do not recreate that problem while trying to find a solution to it? That is the elephant in the room.

I and other Members of the Dáil met our guests in Buswell's Hotel approximately one year ago. At that stage, they informed us that there was a need to build some 50,000 houses. I would like to hear them express their views on that matter now. I accept that the remit of the CIC goes beyond house building and that it is involved in infrastructural and other programmes. I would be interested in discovering our guests' current views on the housing market, particularly in the context of capacity and prices. Are they of the view that prices in the residential market will increase in the near future or will such prices continue to fall? I am of the opinion that they will continue to fall because the annual cost of rent is less than the sum of the depreciation of the value of property at present. It is a clear economic calculation. The value of one's house could drop by €10,000 over a year and one could certainly rent a house for that amount. One does not need to be a mathematical genius to work out the position in this regard.

Reference was made to infrastructural projects and a number of suggestions were put forward in respect of the tendering processes and procurement procedures relating to public contracts. The two previous speakers referred to circumstances in which the State might play a role in getting capital programmes relating to infrastructure and everything else up and running. Will our guests indicate where they see savings being made in the areas of procurement and planning?

Our guests' presentation contains a series of graphs, each of which shows quite a significant decline in values. It must be borne in mind that between 2004 and 2006, the position in Ireland was over twice that of the EU norm. However, no alarm bells were sounded and the message put across to people was that they should drive forward and continue to buy. What is the optimum level we need to reach? There was massive overproduction during the period to which I refer and a number of legacy issues arise as a result.

I carried out some research and discovered that between 2002 and 2006 something of the order of 180,000 new households came into being. However, some 260,000 houses were built during the same period, giving rise to an excess of 80,000. The latter figure would account for approximately of all houses constructed during the period. It is apparent, therefore, that we produced one third more houses than were required but that the price of houses continued to increase. The laws of supply and demand were thrown out the window between 2002 and 2006. Those whom our guests represent made a fortune during the period in question. What did they do with all the money they made?

Another of the legacy issues relates to the fact that too many office blocks, etc., have been built. How are we supposed to proceed in respect of this infrastructure? There are many empty units throughout the country. The presentation contains a map of Patrick Street, Cork. Cork's city centre is dying a slow death because most businesses are moving their operations to suburban centres because the cost of rental in these areas is so low. How can we proceed with construction programmes when many units that have already been completed are empty?

I agree with Mr. Timoney's comments in respect of the national development plan. The school-building programme is probably the most obvious aspect that arises in this regard and he referred to it in his presentation. Building permanent schools would certainly make much more sense, in the long term, than to continue spending money on portakabins. The State is spending a great deal on portakabins. I would be interested in discovering whether our guests might wish to cite other examples where development could continue.

I am concerned with regard to the e-tendering process and the difficulties smaller businesses are experiencing in respect of it. It appears that only major companies which have substantial amounts of cash on hand are in a position to engage with the e-tendering process. I understand that €20,000 is required upfront in order to engage with the process as it stands. If one does not have access to that level of resources, one cannot compete with the big boys. Multinationals and large Irish corporations are in a position to engage with this process but local and modest-sized businesses cannot do so. Has any of those our guests represent raised this as an issue?

My final question relates to the summary provided in respect of the CIC's position. It is stated that for every €1 billion invested, the actual cost to Government is €490 million plus benefits from infrastructure. Mr. Parlon has made a strong case to the effect that for every €1 spent in construction, the return in respect of immediate employment is extremely good. How much of the €1 billion invested by the State would be returned to the Exchequer in the form of tax?

I welcome our guests and thank them for their presentation. Mr. Timoney referred to education, an area in which many jobs could be created. I am extremely happy with regard to the number of new schools that have been built and the number of refurbishment works that have been carried out in my constituency in recent years. However, I agree with Deputy O'Donoghue that the delay in the planning process in dealing with applications for construction projects is a serious problem.

Another area of concern is public private partnership projects, PPPs, where a contractor is awarded contracts to build two or three schools. I cannot understand the thinking behind the process involved. Even though planning permission may have been granted for the school that is No. 1 on the list, it appears that work on the building of that school cannot begin until such time as the contractor has secured planning permission for the building of those three schools. That is crazy. I have asked the Minister if that practice could be changed.

I heard on the news on the BBC last night that the new British Government has abandoned its plans for its schools capital projects. I am glad we are not yet in that position and hope we will never be in it.

Another area about which I am very concerned, which Mr. Timoney mentioned, is the 500 primary care centres targeted by the Health Service Executive to be delivered under the public private partnership model. There is much concern among people who are putting their money up and, unfortunately, these projects have not got the go ahead to proceed. Much of the problem is due to the fact that the banks will not lend in some circumstances. Have the representatives sat down with representatives of the banks, the Minister and officials in the Department of Finance to try to iron out this problem? It appears to be one being experienced across the country in that the banks are not lending money for the construction of worthwhile projects. That is worrying for those people who have put their money where their mouths are. There is such a project in my town which is ready to proceed. Planning permission has been obtained and everything is ready to proceed but, unfortunately, the banks are not in a position to lend to the people concerned.

I apologise for being late. I thank the speakers for their presentation. I want to follow up on some of the issues raised, one of which was procurement. There is no doubt that procurement is causing many difficulties for many firms, particularly in areas in the north west from which I come. While some major projects are proceeding, people on the southern side of the Border are experiencing great difficulty in competing with companies on the northern side. That is something that has caused a great deal of annoyance in my area. I am told there are construction companies, and I have seen this with my own eyes, getting work in the South using people from the North and nobody knows whether those people are working legitimately, or in receipt of unemployment benefit, or what is going on. That is something that must be urgently addressed.

The issues involved all come down to procurement because there are many companies on the southern side of the Border that cannot make the contract because of their turnover figures for the previous year or the year before that. They cannot meet the figures required. I have raised this issue with our Ministers and the representatives should also raise it because it is a problem that is causing difficulties for many small companies. There are contracts for projects and they are not major contracts; they are creating employment but, unfortunately, in terms of where I come from most of those jobs are going North.

I invite the representatives to respond to the different points made. They can decide who will respond to the points.

Mr. Eamon Timoney

I will deal with the questions in the order in which they were asked. Deputy O'Donoghue raised the issue of PPPs. I will ask Mr. John Curtin to address that issue.

Mr. John Curtin

The National Convention Centre landmark project was the first of its type in the State. It included land acquisition, among other things. Major lessons have been learned from it by all involved, including the private sector. We have discovered from that major learning process that we have managed to increase the speed at which PPPs can function in the State. I cite the examples of the Cork School of Music and the Criminal Courts of Justice as two projects where the procurement process was reduced considerably over and above that in the case of the National Convention Centre. Lessons learned have led to a more efficient procurement process. However, considerable improvements remain to be considered and made by all parties involved.

When the State announces a PPP scheme it, in effect, steps into an international arena and says to international investors: "Come and invest in Ireland". It is not unlike stepping into the arena into which the Industrial Development Authority might step when it seeks international investment in Ireland. To convince people to invest, one must have credibility and an efficient procurement system. Mr. Timoney touched on this area earlier. We have the National Development Finance Agency, NDFA, which is made up of a good group of people who are very efficient and respected internationally, but we have had six accommodation PPPs that floundered, including the National Concert Hall project. There are efficiencies to be gained. We are keen to meet the Department of Finance to explore those efficiencies and we must convince the international environment that it is worth investing in Ireland.

For instance, a bidder might have needed to bid €2 million to €3 million to bid for the National Concert Hall project. If the project does not go ahead, the next time Ireland stands before the international community and announces a similar project, the money may not come to Ireland from those international investors. It might instead go to Germany or one of our European Union competitors. I hope that answers Deputy O'Donoghue's question. We would be delighted to meet with the Department of Finance and move that on. Efficiencies have been made to the PPP model since the national conference centre project.

Deputy Brady also asked about the PPP model and about the inability to proceed with work on one school project which has secured planning until planning is also secured for the other two school projects concerned. That process is inherent in the PPP model in that the finance that will be offered by the international finance community will be for three schools. The model will work on the basis of there being three school projects but not on the basis of each individual school project. In the event that work on only one school was to proceed because the planning applications for the other two floundered, the PPP model would fall in that respect. Ultimately, it would cost the State far more money than it should — it would not be efficient.

I make one further minor point on the PPP model regarding the difficulties and the time involved. The old saying, a stitch in time saves nine, has huge merit in this context. When we embark on a PPP, it is not merely to construct a school, a road, a hospital or a courts building but to construct and maintain it for 25 years. For want of a better expression, the PPP project is effectively put in a box and it ticks away for 25 years and, in theory, one does not have to revisit it for that period. There is huge benefit in spending 18 months or two years on the procurement process, if it has to be as long as that, and then letting the PPP proceed. I hope that has answered the Deputy's question.

Mr. Paul Keogh

Deputy O'Donoghue touched on something that is very important to the PPP process. It is useful to reflect that what initiated this process was a report completed by CIC in 2009, which recommended that pension funds could be tapped into in terms of investment. There should be alternative sources of funding, and that is what has us here today, namely, continuing that process.

It is also useful to touch on Deputy Ciarán Lynch's point, namely, why should the committee listen to this group. We know that too much building took place — that is accepted but, in fairness, it should be recognised that a great deal of the surplus housing and surplus hotels were tax driven by Government policy. The Deputy referred to surplus housing. That was a huge investment in decentralised Government offices, but Deputy O'Donoghue should note the fantastic achievements that were made, the Wexford opera house, the Aviva stadium, the National Concert Hall and Croke Park. I presented our architecture awards last week and the awards that were given were for projects such as an Alzheimer's centre, a primary care centre, Rush library and Athlone IT — many good projects were delivered. We had a kind of civil war. We should stop that and consider how we move forward. We would welcome the opportunity to meet the Department of Finance and to put forward these proposals to invest in the infrastructure.

On the point made by Deputies Brady and Scanlon in regard to smaller projects, the large PPPs have been wasteful, particularly, as Mr. Curtin said, for those costing more than €2 million. Preparing a bid is a great waste of money — it is wasteful for architects, engineers, surveyors and contractors, as well as with regard to the lawyers who make a great deal of money out of it. For schools in particular, there are alternative models. We have spoken to colleagues in the Netherlands, where pension funds invest in housing and schools. There is much we can learn and now is the time to learn from past mistakes.

The point the manifesto makes strongly — Mr. Timoney referred to this in his presentation — is that we are not planning now. It is estimated that 600 schools will be required in the next ten years but, currently, the Department of Education and Skills has a tender out for 11 schools and there will be 11 more next year. We are just not dealing with the problem and, with respect to Deputy Lynch, the CSO and the ESRI still project that, despite the surplus of houses in the wrong place, we will need many houses in Cork, Dublin and the urban centres but we are not planning for them. The number of planning permissions and housing starts has dropped.

Procurement is a major issue. Last week, we met the CIC and a high level delegation is being set up to consider how the whole public procurement process can be worked on. We hope to meet the Department of Finance immediately after the summer to make constructive proposals, particularly in regard to SMEs, which are disadvantaged, particularly in the PPP process. I know my colleagues in smaller architectural and engineering practices in rural communities feel particularly excluded from this process.

I welcome all of the points and say we would like to have constructive engagement and we would like to come back to the committee when we have moved this process forward. However, I make the point to Deputy Lynch that it has not been all bad.

My opening comment was that the RIAI was part of the problem and the question now is how it will become part of the solution. That is the point. I welcome the new maturity, particularly that shown by the CIF today. A year ago, it was telling us 50,000 more houses needed to be built in the country. That position has matured since then and we are now talking about national development plans and infrastructure. There is recognition here that it had been divorced from the whole problem and there was a suggestion the housing bubble was something created by Government.

Mr. Keogh is correct when he talks about tax incentivisation. However, the point I cannot understand with all the tax incentivisation and subsidies that were put in place is that the price of property still went up and there was an oversupply. For the life of me, I cannot figure it out. The census figures for 2002-06 show that 80,000 houses more than required were built yet the price of houses went off the scale in that period. I cannot understand how that happened.

The easy availability of finance was the principal reason. People could get loans at the drop of a hat.

The second question is where all that money went, because it went over the counter to builders.

Does Mr. Timoney wish to respond?

Mr. Eamon Timoney

What Deputy Lynch has outlined is the essence of a bubble, where supply of what is being sold far exceeds its value. That is now readily accepted. We are where we are. Nonetheless, there is a significant infrastructure deficit from a social point of view and State capital is needed. This is what we need to address as we move forward.

Deputy Lynch raised a number of other issues in terms of what we can do regarding the tender and planning processes. We share his concern in regard to the SME sector, given some 90% of the member firms we represent are in the SME sector. The Deputy is correct that we all face difficulties in meeting thresholds, particularly for contractors, who must meet certain thresholds and have a certain value of work done in the past three years. In a year or two, what work will I or a contractor have to show as having been done in the past three years to meet a threshold? This comes back to the point on trying to win work in the North of Ireland where, again, thresholds are applied. There is a real need for the procurement agencies, whether the NRA, local authorities or otherwise, to consider the thresholds they are setting so they do not unfairly exclude the SME sector. If we do not examine those, I fear it will only be the larger companies and perhaps only the larger foreign companies that will be able to take up the work.

Does a company have to put money up front as part of the tendering process?

Mr. Eamon Timoney

Not as part of the normal tendering process.

To be listed as part of the e-tendering process——

Mr. Eamon Timoney

There is a cost. There is obviously an internal cost in preparing for and getting accredited to the Achilles tendering system. However, once one meets the basic thresholds that are set by the procuring authority with regard to e-tendering, which does not include a monetary contribution, one is entitled to tender.

Mr. Paul Keogh

To clarify the matter, there is no cost to be on the list but there is a huge cost to the service providers who prepare the tenders. For example, last week there was much discussion in our profession with regard to tenders sought by the Department of Education and Skills. Some 180 firms applied for architectural work, 84 were deemed to be compliant in meeting the criteria and only 20 were selected. This means 100 firms have spent perhaps two weeks' work preparing a presentation. If one is an architect and is on the other side when one tenders for a typical school project, one has to pre-select from 55 or 60 contractor submissions — at least, that was the case on the last occasion we did this. Each contractor has to submit a large folder with all of its responses to the criteria. The design team must then go through all of those, which is probably a four-person exercise for one week, and this is done for every project. On the last occasion, the OPW tendered for an architect's framework and the chief architect says he takes pride that out of the 120 or so who applied, it was possible to find places in the framework for 60 to 80 firms. Following this, as projects come up, the tendering process is much simpler.

This goes back to Deputy Scanlon's point about finding opportunities in the process for the SMEs to operate. We must meet the Department of Education and Skills but the fear is that if one puts out the work in dribs and drabs, one is tendering for very small batches every time and it is always the older, larger firms which succeed. When this document was being produced, we brought together perhaps 20 to 24 experts in conference in all of the sectors and they all prepared papers. One of the strong representations came from the OPW and the local authority sector that one gets big bang for one's buck if one renovates the local court house, builds a new Garda station or develops a public library. That work spreads all the way out through the economy. Deputy Scanlon made the point that there must be a way of getting away from the huge €100 million projects and down into the €2 million or €3 million projects which will give local contractors, plumbers, small rural architectural practices and engineers the work.

The procurement process is incredibly wasteful of time. As Mr. Curtin said, to bid for a project can cost contractors and their design teams up to €2 million when every five firms of architects are designing and five firms of engineers and surveyors are pricing. It is a very wasteful process. Deputy O'Donoghue is correct that we need find a better way of doing it.

With regard to the 500 primary care centres which were the target, only 200 have been delivered to date. I have been told that for every primary care centre there are 50 construction jobs for a year or two, and many permanent jobs after completion. We have discussed how tax breaks were used in the past but there has to be some incentive to get GPs to buy into this scheme. Many GPs are in their 50s and 60s and will not buy into a scheme like this, lasting ten or 15 years, because they are better off in their current premises. The scheme should be targeted because it will keep people out of hospitals. Even though money is being given out in tax breaks now, much more will be saved in the long term. What are the delegates' views on that?

Mr. Paul Keogh

I am amazed that so many of the GPs' premises I inspect are substandard. Given that a significant portion of the expenditure on primary care comes from the Exchequer in terms of medical cards and so on, one wonders how there can be such poor-quality infrastructure. This has a significant bearing on people's experience of primary care in terms of waiting facilities, accessibility for disabled people, sanitary facilities and so on. There is a great opportunity to review how this programme is rolled out. I suggest a carrot and stick approach. We are working on this issue and hope to be back in due course with more concrete proposals.

Mr. Tom Parlon

In response to Deputy Ciarán Lynch's question, the ESRI has said consistently that our population requires the construction of 30,000 new houses annually. There has been much speculation about the stock of unsold houses and everybody seems to have a different interest in this. The CIF did its own count but that was dismissed on the basis that our interests must make us unreliable. Some estate agents have also undertaken counts, as have NUI Maynooth and UCD, and the conclusions range from 40,000 to 300,000. Clearly location will have a significant impact on people's view and whether they have the incentive to buy. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is also doing a count and we understand that has progressed very well. It is not such a big deal for each local authority to count individual unsold houses in their area. The committee should have access to that information by early September, as I understand it, when the count will be complete. My preliminary intelligence suggests the figure is at the lower end of the scale, which is good news for our business. Clearly there are location issues and apartment units will have to be sold off at a discounted rate to take them out of the market.

Deputy Lynch also inquired about the savings accruing to the Exchequer from investment in infrastructure projects. We are saying that every €1 billion of expenditure creates 10,000 jobs for one year. The people who get those jobs will pay tax, PRSI, VAT, excise duty and so on. With so many major projects currently coming to an end, large numbers of construction workers have no choice but to sign on to the dole. A typical construction worker pays approximately €18,000 in PAYE and PRSI; the same amount that he or she would receive in social welfare payments. It is a "no-brainer". The Government will provide much needed infrastructure while reducing welfare payments and increasing taxation income.

If we allow the national programme to diminish much further, more people will be forced to join the dole queue. We have the people and the machinery; it is only common sense to utilise them. One of the greatest scandals I encountered is that massive compounds of expensive, good-quality plant are being seized by lending institutions, sold off at auction for a quarter of the price and exported out of the country. We are diminishing our earning potential by allowing that to happen. I hope there will be greater certainty by the end of the year in regard to the volume of unsold stock and perhaps some incentive or stimulus for first-time buyers. We need to restore confidence in the market. At the moment there is neither confidence nor access to mortgage finance with the result that there is effectively no market.

Mr. P. J. Rudden

We are seeking the means to again grow the economy. We all acknowledge that our industry has fallen from artificially high levels but the reality is that there remains a huge infrastructural deficit which needs to be filled if we are to grow the economy. We need the metro north project, we need Luas underground, we need improved public transport in Cork, Galway and other urban centres, and we need renewable energy projects. We will lose the means of effecting recovery if our industry shrinks any further.

Mr. Eamon Timoney

We have addressed most of the questions raised by members with the exception of Deputy McCormack's question. We will get back to him on that. There was an indication in my presentation as to the consultancy costs prior to the start of a project, and they are reasonably accurate. In addition, Mr. Fred Barry of the National Roads Authority made a presentation to an Oireachtas committee recently where he listed the costs of various road schemes. We will provide any information we have to the Deputy.

Will Mr. Timoney send that information to the clerk to the committee so that it can be circulated to members?

Mr. Eamon Timoney

We will do so. I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to make our presentation to the committee. As Mr. Rudden pointed out, we are looking at ways to move forward to address what we see as an ongoing deficit in the State's infrastructure. We are extremely concerned that further diminution of capital expenditure will decimate all of the industry, including professionals, contracting bodies, supplier bodies and the workforce.

I thank the delegates for attending the meeting and for their clear, concise and informative presentations.

At our next meeting we will discuss the report on the management of severe weather events. For the information of members, the Minister, Deputy Gormley, will attend today's meeting of the select committee for 15 minutes to deal with the ratification of the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.30 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 13 July 2010.
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