JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 18 Jan 2011

Business of Joint Committee

Chairman

As we now have a quorum I call the meeting to order. I ask all members to turn off their mobile phones completely.

Before we start I would like to mention that the Irish Farmers Association and Teagasc will appear before the Joint Committee on Climate Change and Energy Security tomorrow at 2.30 p.m. in committee room No. 1 to discuss the Climate Change Response Bill 2010. Committee Stage of the Bill is expected to be debated by the Select Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in due course. A number of people, including the IFA and IBEC, have contacted this committee to make presentations. They will also contact the Select Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Select Committee on Climate Change and Energy Security. We will support them when the time comes, but we must be careful to avoid having presentations in triplicate before Oireachtas committees.

The first item on the agenda is the minutes. The draft minutes of the meeting of 16 November 2010 have been circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed.

The next item on our agenda is the correspondence received since the last meeting of the joint committee. As that was some time ago, we have quite an amount to get through. The main item of business at today's meeting is a discussion with representatives of the City and County Managers Association.

The first item of correspondence, which has been held over since our meeting of 16 November 2010, is an e-mail with attachments detailing the current position with regard to electronic voting machines. People were looking for information on costs and other matters. We can note that.

The next item of correspondence is an e-mail from Dr. Farrell of HomeBond declining an invitation to appear before the joint committee. We had asked HomeBond to send a representative to a meeting of the committee to discuss the pyrite issue. It has declined to do so. I know there is legislation in this respect. Members are free to raise this topic again. As I recall it, the letter was a fairly abrupt refusal to appear before us.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I find it quite startling that HomeBond has declined our invitation. It is becoming clear that it is refusing to discuss this matter. Last autumn, there was some ambiguity about whether HomeBond was available, or whether we could agree a suitable time. It should be noted that HomeBond has blankly refused to come before this committee. Many questions have been asked about the future operation of HomeBond, particularly in the context of ghost estates and the management of estates. One can only speculate that HomeBond is reluctant to come before this committee because it does not want to disclose something that is happening in HomeBond.

Chairman

We were told at an earlier stage by representatives of HomeBond that litigation was ongoing in relation to the pyrite issue.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I would like to correct that. The pyrite issue was one issue. We wished to discuss other matters with HomeBond that went beyond the scope of the pyrite issue. If this committee were to correspond with HomeBond, telling it we are prepared to agree to confine our discussions to matters other than the pyrite issue, I would have no problem with that. It appears to me that HomeBond is hiding behind litigation on the pyrite issue to avoid coming before this committee to discuss what HomeBond is doing in general.

Chairman

Does the Deputy want us to respond to HomeBond acknowledging its reply and saying the committee may choose to return to this matter at a future stage?

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I suggest we say we understand HomeBond's court difficulties with regard to the pyrite issue. We should emphasise that the committee's intent is to discuss matters that go beyond the pyrite issue alone. We should say we are still keen to meet them to talk about such matters.

Chairman

It mentioned the issue of ghost estates. The Government has established an advisory committee.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

We know all that. That is why we want to talk to it.

Chairman

Right. We will write back to HomeBond to say that. I am happy with that. We will not set a date. We will just put it on our list.

The next item of correspondence is a letter from the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, stating which bodies have responsibility for regional and national roads. We will note that. Members have seen that information before.

The next item is an invitation to the Chairman and the members of the committee, asking us if we would like to be consulted about the organisational review programme of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The invitation was sent by the Secretary General to the Government. I thank Deputies Ciarán Lynch, Fitzpatrick and McCormack for representing the committee at a meeting on the matter in early December. I acknowledge their presence at the meeting.

The next item is an invitation to attend a conference in Brussels on 14 September 2011. That can be considered at the next meeting of the committee.

The next item is an e-mail setting out the decisions taken by the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny at its meeting of 18 November last. We can note that. No specific proposals were referred to us.

The next item is an invitation we received to attend a round table discussion that took place in Brussels last December. We did not take up the invitation.

The next item is an invitation to those attending a conference on waste management, which is taking place in Mauritius between 5 and 9 September next, to submit abstracts by in advance of the conference. That can be considered at the next meeting of the committee.

The next item is a suggestion by Senator Daly that the joint committee should, on a quarterly basis, review and monitor the work of the local government implementation group. As the Senator is not present, perhaps we will discuss the suggestion at a future stage. We can advise him that it will be considered at our next meeting.

The next item is a press statement from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government about the severe weather inter-agency group. We will note that.

The next item is a set of documents relating to the escape of toxic substances from Kerdiffstown dump in County Kildare. Deputy Fitzpatrick, who has furnished us with the documents, believes the escape of the substances represents a major environmental hazard. Deputy Hogan has also raised the matter. Representatives of the Environmental Protection Agency have been invited to attend next week's meeting of the committee to discuss the agency's 2009 annual report, which was issued just before Christmas, and they have agreed to do so. Members will have an opportunity to discuss this matter at that meeting. I am sure we will be told that legal issues are involved.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

Deputy Hogan has raised this issue as well. At a meeting of this committee in February 2010, I mentioned that Neiphin Trading Limited had placed an advertisement in a local newspaper, outlining that the co-operation of the Environmental Protection Agency had not been forthcoming in granting the company a permit. The company has since gone into liquidation and the site has been closed. It is a complete eyesore. All kinds of noxious fumes, etc., are emanating from the site. There is a severe danger that adjoining lands and the River Morrell, which runs alongside the dump, will suffer serious pollution. Local communities are very concerned about public health. I do not know about legal actions that are being taken. It does not make any sense to seek to get those involved with a company that has gone into liquidation to try to rectify this serious matter, which needs immediate attention. An active local group has taken the matter on board. Members have seen its report on the matter. I appeal to the Chairman to invite the local committee to address the committee along with the EPA. I have grave concerns about the delay in taking action on this serious matter. When I spoke to a county council official, I was told that a number of unauthorised development notices had been placed on the site. As the EPA licensed the site, the council is out of the equation and is washing its hands of the matter. It is an issue for the EPA to deal with. The least we need the EPA to do immediately is to put a caretaker on site and to make it safe.

Chairman

The EPA will discuss its annual report at next week's meeting. Is the Deputy suggesting we should bring the local committee in as well?

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

We could invite the local committee to come in, if the notice is not too short. It would be appropriate to hear the views of the committee. There are serious concerns about this issue. It is being debated on a regular basis at community meetings and on local radio. It is a huge issue locally. The site is beside the villages of Kill, Johnstown and Sallins and the town of Naas. There is a substantial population in the area. If it is injurious to people's health, it is a serious matter.

Chairman

Would the Deputy prefer the local committee to make its presentation before the EPA, if members agree to that? I do not want to mix the two issues. The EPA is coming here to discuss its annual report for the whole country, rather than this single issue. If the Deputy wants to raise this issue, perhaps we can provide a slot and the local committee can make its case before the discussion with the EPA. I do not want to confuse a local community group with a national organisation. I am sure all members could bring local groups to this forum in such circumstances. Does the Deputy think the local committee would be prepared to make a presentation immediately before the EPA?

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

We should ask the local committee to make a presentation before the EPA arrives. I do not believe the EPA will be prepared to discuss the matter with the committee. It will say it is sub judice.

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

It will not be prepared to discuss it.

Chairman

The smell is not sub judice. It is out in the air.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

The smell is very serious. It is not a joke any more.

Chairman

Do members agree to receive a short presentation from the local committee, as a separate agenda item before the main presentation from the EPA?

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I am aware that Deputy Hogan has written to the committee on behalf of a local councillor.

Chairman

We have received correspondence from Deputy Hogan requesting a debate on the same matter. We will invite the local committee to make a short presentation of approximately 15 minutes before the representatives of the EPA arrive. If the local committee makes a short opening statement, followed by-----

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I appeal to the Chairman to give the local committee half an hour.

Chairman

We will negotiate that. The discussion with the local committee, if it is available, will be a separate item on the agenda. I will ask Deputies Fitzpatrick and Hogan to liaise with the clerk about making contact with the local committee. We will deal with the matter separately. The representatives of the local committee will be welcome to sit in the Gallery during the discussion with the EPA.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

They can listen to the debate.

Chairman

The next item of correspondence is a letter we received in December from the Irish National Community and Voluntary Forum, which is concerned about a cut in its budget that has been proposed by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. However, a circular was issued on 17 January from the Department stating that €587,000 of its allocation had been restored, which represents significant progress. It was asked to make savings of €1.2 million, but it has now been told that half of that has been restored in an additional allocation. A copy of the circular is available from the clerk if people have not seen it. We will note that.

The next item is with regard to the Irish Heritage Trust. Deputy James Bannon requested that members of the board be invited to appear before the committee to discuss its composition, functions and cost. We will put that on our work programme, although I am not sure whether we will get to it.

The next item is an invitation to a seminar on State aid for environmental protection, to be held on 17 and 18 February. I propose we pass on that. Next is a list of decisions taken by the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny in December. There is nothing for our committee to note so we will move along. Next we have an invitation to attend a conference to be held in Bantry on 11 and 12 February by the Association of Municipal Authorities of Ireland. Does any member have a particular interest? We will pass on that.

The next item is a request from the Joint Committee on European Affairs for comments from this committee on the European Commission's budget review document, with a reply sought by mid-January. We did not deal with it on time. The committee has asked us for our views, so I suggest that we ask the Department to give us a report and we will consider it. I would not like a report from the Department to be taken as the view of the joint committee because not all members of the committee might agree with the views expressed. We will ask the Department to send us its proposals and we will consider them under correspondence at our next meeting.

The next item is a briefing report on the land aggregation scheme, together with supporting documentation, which we have received after requesting it at a previous meeting. We will note that.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

Some local authorities are dezoning land at the moment. This is an issue that was raised at Sligo County Council. What is the legal position on dezoning? I wonder whether the Office of the Attorney General has been asked about this situation. There is a feeling out there that many people who bought properties with certain conditions attached could now find that their land has been dezoned as a result of decisions by local authorities, leaving it at a tenth of the value of what was paid for it. Questions are being asked about the legality of this dezoning process. Is it possible that this committee could ask for a legal opinion from the Office of the Attorney General?

Chairman

In the first place, we should ask the Department for its considered views.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

Fair enough.

Chairman

I take the point, but the Attorney General might not respond directly to this committee because he is not the legal adviser to this committee. There is an Oireachtas legal adviser. The issue raised by the Deputy is coming up in all local authorities. We will ask the Department for its considered view, including legal implications.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

What we do not want in the future is for this to end up in the High Court and a finding to be made that people are to be compensated for the reduction in value of lands that were dezoned. The market will decide what land is zoned and what land is built on.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I agree with Deputy Scanlon on this. I am totally opposed to such dezoning. It is sad to see people who have made commitments to purchase land to provide facilities in communities being forced out of the market altogether. This applies not just to housing but to community facilities. Places that were designated as settlements are now being taken out of the system and turned into greenfield sites. These small villages will never have the community facilities they would have got if a small amount of housing development was allowed. They will not get their sewerage schemes, water schemes or community centres. That is a disservice to local rural communities. In big towns and cities land is zoned for housing purposes only, but small communities have once again been put at a serious disadvantage. This is happening in my own county, and I am completely opposed to it. It is very unfair.

Senator Paudie Coffey

This deserves an entire debate in itself. We must review the impact of the recent Planning and Development (Amendment) Act 2010, which was passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas, on county and city development plans. I had consultations with the county manager only yesterday. The Waterford county development plan is under review at the moment. The local authority must comply with the regional planning guidelines, as set down by the legislation, and the regional development plan, and this is driving how city and county development plans are compiled. There are population target requirements in the regional plans which will decide how much land is zoned. There are issues in this regard, but I concur that we need clarification on the legal implications for local authorities of dezoning land, if there are any - there may not be. If there are any implications, local authorities need to be clear on them.

As I said during the various stages of debate in the Seanad, we have moved to a top-down approach to planning, which is tying the hands of local authorities that may see potential for growth in smaller towns and villages but are being restricted by the new Act. I remind colleagues that this is something both the Dáil and the Seanad voted for. I have concerns in this regard.

Deputy Johnny Brady

I fully concur with what everybody has said. Deputy Fitzpatrick mentioned our smaller towns and particularly our villages where land has been zoned for small clusters of houses. Our local schools will be under threat because of the population trend. It is a shame. Another situation that has developed in my area is that people signed over land to the county council for community centres, sports pitches or whatever, but it will not be built on in the next 20 years - it may never be built on. These people no longer own the land and they cannot sell it for development. It is an awful situation and something must be done. It is not fair to landowners and to local communities which were depending on these lands for community facilities or children's play areas. We must get advice on this and we should have a full debate on the issue.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

The Planning and Development (Amendment) Act has serious repercussions for planning authorities. I notice that since the Act was introduced, and even slightly before that, in anticipation of its enactment, no planning applications have been accepted anywhere in Galway, particularly in the Connemara area, without a request for further information, including an environmental impact study, because they are within the catchment area of a special area of conservation or a natural heritage area, even though in some cases these sites are ten, 12 or even 15 miles away from any designated area. Because the sites are in the region of a designated area, the local authority is now taking a cautious approach as a result of the Act. They are either leaning over backwards to comply with any regulations that are there, or being very good boys for the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

A person applying for permission to build an ordinary one-off house in such an area, or even to build a farm shed, faces difficulties. In one case I dealt with recently in Connemara, a man who was applying for a farm shed to house his sheep so he could take them off the land in the winter was asked to produce environmental impact studies and everything going, which cost him an extra €3,000 to €5,000. This was an effort to improve the environment, not damage it, by taking his stock off the land in winter. Similarly, a young couple who have been given a site by their parents and are applying for permission to build a one-off house are being put through every obstacle imaginable, having to produce environmental impact studies and so on to ensure that the erection of a house on the site will not in any way affect the environment. This is red tape gone crazy. This has happened since Deputy John Gormley became Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I do not know if local authorities are afraid of an adverse reaction from him, but I have noticed that it is impossible to make a planning application and get an answer. Every one who makes a planning applications in the Connemara area is asked to provide further information. It is not simple further information but extremely expensive further information that is sought. It is the duty of the applicant to respond or the application will not be dealt with. In some cases it costs €7,000 or €8,000 to produce the evidence to show that the erection of a house in a particular area would not adversely affect the environment. We had a case of this recently when Clifden community school applied for planning permission to demolish the old school and erect a new school on the same site. The application was submitted to the local authority in July 2010 but has not yet been dealt with - it may be dealt with shortly - because of the regulation that it must produce environment impact studies to show that the erection of a new school would not have any effect on the sensitive environment of the area. This is ridiculous.

Chairman

At this stage, it is clear we need to put this issue in our work programme for an early meeting. We will ask for an information note from the Department immediately. We will then proceed. We need to have a full discussion.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

The reason I raised the issue is that taxpayers could be faced with enormous bills if this issue is not dealt with comprehensively.

Chairman

To dezone.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

It is important that we know the exact legal position because that is what I am concerned about.

Chairman

We will get a detailed note from the Department and then have an early meeting on this topic. The next item is No. 1029, decisions taken by the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny on 16 December. We note that. The next item, No. 1030, is the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland annual report and accounts 2009. We note that. The next item, No. 1031, is a response from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to the issues raised in the submission by the National Council for the Blind to this committee. We will forward it to the National Council for the Blind. The next item, No. 1032, is a request from the Joint Committee on Health and Children to meet the Simon Communities of Ireland on homelessness. We will agree to that request but we will not set a date. We will try to have a joint meeting with the Joint Committee on Health and Children and ourselves on homelessness.

The next item, No. 1033, is Irish Wildlife Manuals No. 45 - a technical manual for monitoring white-clawed crayfish. Any member who wishes to have a copy of that report should contact the clerk to the committee. The next item, No. 1034, is Irish Wildlife Manuals No. 46 - a provisional inventory of ancient and long-established woodland in Ireland. The next item, No. 1035, is Irish Wildlife Manuals No. 48 - guidelines for a national survey and conservation assessment of upland vegetation. The next item, No. 1036, is Irish Wildlife Manuals No. 49 - guidelines and standards for the collection and storage of vegetation data in Ireland. The next item, No. 1037, is Irish Wildlife Manuals No. 50 - the status of red grouse in Ireland and the effects of land use, habitat and habitat quality on their distribution. The next item, No. 1038, is Ireland Red List No. 4 - on the topic of butterflies. If any member wishes to have a copy of any of those documents they are available from the clerk. We note them all.

The next item, No. 1039, is integrated constructed wetlands - we are getting back to ordinary issues - a guidance document for farmyard soiled water and domestic waste water applications from the water quality section of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. It is about sewerage schemes and wetlands. We will note it and if any member wishes to raise the issue at a further meeting he or she may do so. The next item, No. 1040, is meeting with the Environmental Protection Agency regarding Kerdiffstown stud. This was a request from Deputy Phil Hogan. We have dealt with that issue but we are inviting it to come in, in advance of our meeting with the EPA. The next item, No. 1041, is a letter stating that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has not been involved in the non-national roads programme since 2008. We wrote to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government regarding the functions of the National Roads Authority on its role in regard to roads. We note the position.

The next item, No.1042, is the Irish Water Safety annual report 2 - water safety. The next item, No. 1043, is the list of inter-parliamentary activities organised by the Hungarian Presidency of the EU. We note that. The next item, No. 1044, is the decision taken by the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny on 13 January. We note that. The next item, No. 1045, is in regard to a national radon strategy. It is an acknowledgement letter informing the committee that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is currently engaging with the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland to help in the development of a national radon strategy. We note that. The next item, No. 1046, is an invitation to the committee to join the fish fight campaign which calls on all European governments to eliminate discards from our fisheries. I recommend that a copy be forwarded to the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food for direct reply to Ms Tara Griffin.

I have a long list of statutory instruments but I will not read out all the headings. The first is SI No. 561 of 2010 - building regulations; the next is on the Wildlife Act 1976, including the temporary closure of open hunting season for birds; the next is on the Planning and Development Act 2000 - designation of strategic development zone: Cherrywood, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County; the next item is on the Planning and Development Act 2000 - designation of strategic development zone: Monard, Cork County; the next two items are on the temporary suspension of open season; and derelict sites (urban areas) regulations 2010. We note all those statutory instruments.

A number of circulars have been received from the Department. The first is circular LG 15/10 of 25 November 1010 - discontinuation of funding for community and voluntary fora. We have already discussed that issue because a new circular was issued on that matter recently. The next circular is on revised guidelines for endorsement of local development body plans by county/city development, the social housing policy, private rented accommodation and the functions; a circular on family law legislation and the administration of public service pensions; a circular on funding for community and voluntary fora; a circular on recoupment of RAPID co-ordinators and the salaries of public service pensions (local authorities) - these are internal memos. We have asked that we be appraised of all these documents going to local authorities. The next item is family law legislation - administration of public service pensions in local authorities. The next item is family law legislation - administration of public service pensions (LGSS) (non-Sharepoint); the next item is on referral of development applications relating to the built and natural heritage to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government as statutory consultee, under the Planning and Development Act 2000 as amended - that is a new circular. Another circular is 12/10 of 23 December 2010 - public service employment - local authority/regional authority December 2010 staff quarterly return. The next circular is 13/10 of 23 December 2010 - public service employment - local authority/regional authority staffing movements; the next circular is in connection with work-sharing and social insurance contributions. The next circular is a redeployment scheme to apply in local authorities as set out in the Public Service Agreement 2010-14 - the Croke Park agreement. The next circular is the establishment of the housing and sustainable communities agency and winding-up of the National Building Agency. The last circular is on housing commitments 2011. We will note all those circulars and if any member wishes to raise any of them at the next meeting he or she may do so. A long list of documents has been e-mailed for member's perusal.

At this stage we have concluded correspondence and we will move on to the main item of business.

Sitting suspended at 16.08 p.m. and resumed at 16.09 p.m.