JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 18 Jan 2011

Severe Weather Conditions: Discussion with County and City Managers Association

Chairman

I welcome the delegation from the County and City Managers Association, Mr. Joe Crockett, Kilkenny county manager, Mr. Tom Curran, Kerry county manager, Mr. Michael Walsh, Waterford city manager, Mr. Danny McLoughlin, Westmeath county manager, and Mr. Michael Phillips, director of traffic and city engineer, Dublin City Council.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses, or an official by name, or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Before the presentation is made, the reason I invited the delegates to come before the committee today was to give them an opportunity to explain to the Oireachtas the very difficult job they had to do as a result of the cold spell, in terms of keeping roads open and water supplies functioning. As Chairman of the committee - and I cannot say whether I am speaking for all members - I thank the local authority staffs through the delegates present for the extraordinary work carried out by the local authorities. They were out on Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, St. Stephen's Day, New Year's Day and New Year's Eve. We know the public was very upset and annoyed at the problems with water supply, the number of leaks and how long it took to rectify the situation, but rather than bringing in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, which provides funding and the NRA which had responsibility for the shiploads of salt we all watched every night, we decided to invite the County and City Managers Association representatives to appear before the committee, because these are the people on the ground dealing with the issues, and delivering the emergency services to the people.

I want them to officially thank, on behalf of the committee, all their staffs who put in tremendous work. I am sure if they had more resources, they might have been able to do more. They might deal with the issue of the impact on resources for the future, because it is only January as yet, and we could still get a few bad spells. In the event, we do not want to see local authorities strapped for cash half way through the year because their budgets are all spent and perhaps not recouped from the Department. Therefore we want to give the delegates an opportunity to explain the difficulties on the ground. From my perspective, we are inviting them before the committee in a positive and complimentary manner, although other members might, perhaps, be more critical. We have heard a great deal of criticism with regard to what did not happen, but overall we acknowledge the great work done by local authority staff. I am not sure who is to make the first presentation. The delegates may come forward in any rotation, as suits them.

Mr. Joe Crockett

I thank the Chairman for his kind words of appreciation, which we will certainly pass on to staff. I am not sure how the presentations work.

Chairman

We will take all the presentations and then we will open the meeting to questions and answers. We shall deal with roads and water and while I do not know about anyone else, I shall be leaving at 5.30 p.m.

Senator Paudie Coffey

The lads will be leaving, too.

Chairman

We shall take all the presentations and try to group them for the questions and answers interlude. Otherwise, we might not get the to last presentation, so we shall take all the presentations first.

Mr. Joe Crockett

We have a shared presentation, so I will lead. Then my colleague from Kerry will follow.

Chairman

The other presenters can be introduced as we go along.

Mr. Joe Crockett

I shall brief the committee, first, on the depth of the weather challenge presented to us and to the country as a whole. We have checked with Met Éireann, which has furnished to us the data I am about to supply. We were dealing with an extreme cold spell, which was exceptional by virtue of the depth of the cold that went into the ground. It was the coldest December on record anywhere in Ireland. Night-time temperatures were as low as -17.5°C while daytime temperatures were as low as -9.4°C. We also had significant snowfalls. Readings at Casement Aerodrome of 27 cm record this as one of the three biggest snow events since records began. What was also different was the duration of the extreme weather from 26 November, roughly, to the 26 December. The weather issue was similar in scale to some events in the 1940s and the 1960s, and early 2010, and there were lesser events in the 1970s and 1980s.

Met. Éireann advised that it regarded this as a one in 50-year event indicating that there would be a 2% chance of recurrence in any given year. Therefore, in terms of planning or assessing the response to be made in the event, that is the type of statistical probability we have to plan against. On activity at local level, obviously there was a combined response under the aegis of the local co-ordinating committees in each county or city in line with the framework for major emergency management. Therefore significant resources were deployed from the local authorities, the Garda, Defence Forces, Civil Defence and the HSE as well as very strong community support. There was a great deal of community resilience in terms of families helping one another, neighbour involvement and as regards the support from farm bodies such as the IFA, the ICMSA and community groups.

Our general experience is that the major emergency framework worked well at local and national levels. Like the Chairman, we take this opportunity to express our thanks to the Garda, Defence Forces, Civil Defence, the HSE, IFA, ICMSA, community groups, our staffs and to the national authorities who worked with us because it really was, as best we could make it, an integrated comprehensive approach.

On communications, we did our best to make extensive use of websites. Every council updated its website daily, sometimes up to three times a day even, and there was extensive use of social media, particularly local radio, to advise and update consumers on roads, school closures, water issues and so on. I express our thanks to local media for their support because it was very significant to be able to give real-time information to people. A number of authorities used call centres and emergency numbers, and most councils did their best to liaise with their members and Members of the Oireachtas as well as with the national emergency co-ordination centre. With the Chairman's permission I will hand over to my colleague, Mr. Michael Walsh, who will deal with the roads issues.

Mr. Michael Walsh

In respect of the roads response, strategic policy was followed right through the event in that we concentrated on strategic priority routes. The national network was kept open as well as strategic regional and local roads. The context here in some respects is that 111,000 tonnes of salt were used so far this winter, with 43,000 tonnes currently in stock and 50,000 tonnes contracted. This compares to 133,000 tonnes last winter - which was considered to be an exceptional event in itself - and significantly lower demands over a period of ten years.

Some 50,000 tonnes were in stock at the beginning of the year, compared to the 10,000 tonnes we would ordinarily have had in stock in previous years. Salt availability became an issue, given the scale of the event. We would argue that this was understandable given the severity of the weather and the time of the year. Put simply, this was the earliest event in our working life times. None of us has ever experienced such a cold spell in November and the severity of the snowfalls. Equally, the fact that this was a Europe-wide event created a competition for salt supplies from elsewhere, which was not helpful.

In the Dublin context, the scales are reflected in terms of the 500 tonnes in use under normal conditions being increased to almost 4,000 tonnes in the current event. The use of a year's normal supply in one day puts the severity of the event in context. Footpath clearances required the continuous use of up to 500 personnel, even for daytime temperatures along with the use of other resources, together with the State input of Army and Civil Defence to help in that effort. Performance was pretty good in terms of the priorities as strategically set out. The Luas, Irish Rail and DART - with the exception of the Luas on a couple of occasions - maintained full service, in reality, with only slight delays in some instances. Bus Éireann, in terms of its inter-city and regional city services maintained activity, again with some limited curtailments. However, productivity was in the region of 95% to 97%. The same broadly applies to Dublin Bus where, with the exception of a few early finishes and confining themselves to not entering some estates, core services on bus routes were sustained over the period.

There is an issue with road damage, as members of the joint committee will be well aware from their local situations. In some respects, there is a cumulative extent of damage from last year and this year. There have been major problems with frost heaving or purging which is where, visually, the ground is coming up through the road. It involves things like alligator cracking and extensive pothole generation. Road linings and markings also suffer. There are also problems in urban areas with footpaths and trench openings. The numbers are only developing as we speak and depend on the extent of adverse weather from now to the end of the winter, because much of the damage is only manifesting itself at the moment. Last year, the cold spell was followed by relatively high rainfall levels, which really exacerbated the damage. The weather between now and the end of the winter will have a big bearing on the extent of the damage. The assessment is ongoing but the numbers are not small. We would place this in the context of something like the bones of €450 million being spent on road maintenance or improvement in the current year. We will engage with the Department in terms of flexibility in respect of that road funding. Equally, we will work to ensure that we get best value and that the most damaged roads will be prioritised in the coming year.

Mr. Tom Curran

To put the water supply in perspective, we have 950 public supplies in this country producing 1,600 million litres of potable water daily through an extensive network of 25,000 km of pipes. Over the period in question, the main issue was frozen pipes and leaks. By and large, the public mains did not freeze. In addition, water production from our treatment plants was not diminished to any significant extent over that period. Our reservoirs were depleted due to leaks and to some extent by taps being left on in homes and businesses over the Christmas period. As a result of that, the average daily demand exceeded normal demand by 40% during that period compared to what there would have been in the first week of December under normal conditions. On top of that, a large number of attics and service pipes froze as a result of over-insulation in attics so that heat did not get up, while pipes were not adequately insulated which created a problem in itself. That problem was compounded by a rapid thaw caused by a large temperature swing over a 24-hour period. That swing was in excess of 20 degrees, so we had almost instant thawing rather than a phased-in thawing, which created a major problem for us.

Over that period, a total of 27,000 incidents were dealt with across the public mains, public site connections, which are stop-cocks and meters, and on the consumer-side connections where we helped out. The severity of the impact on that work varied from one local authority to another, depending on local conditions. A total of more than 2,500 unattended non-domestic shut-offs were carried out. That has been a huge issue, whereby premises were left vacant over the Christmas period, but water was not shut off and there was nobody to check it out, which created a further problem for us. By and large most people had their water back by 30 December. Some isolated pockets at the end of lines are still being dealt with and local authorities are continuing to fix water leaks on a continuous basis.

We had a substantial response to a hugely significant area. Almost 3,300 staff were involved in the effort. Some 522 contract staff were involved by local authorities, where necessary, to supplement our own staff. Some 250,000 man hours were involved, which is an average of 75 hours per person. Many of our staff worked 24-7 over the Christmas period from 26 December 2010 to 7 January 2011. It is a credit to our staff because over this 13-day period only six of those were working days. A great deal of it was based on the goodwill of staff being available and not being on holidays, who turned out to support the effort.

As members will be aware, in Dublin in particular, water restrictions were implemented during the cold weather spell in preparation for the thaw. Water loss in Dublin was 130 million litres over the two nights in the region. Water restrictions continued in Dublin until 16 January 2011. Some 15 tankers, 12,000 water bags and one fire engine were mobilised to assist in Dublin. We are satisfied that local authorities responded positively and had the resources to deal with the issues, as we were able to do so.

Mr. Joe Crockett

I will deal with the question of a review. Obviously, every local authority is carrying out an assessment of the costs involved and the damage incurred in various places. It will take another six or seven weeks before we have a full picture. The Government announced that €15 million would be made available to local authorities for the roads during the snow and ice events. The Minister, Deputy Gormley, indicated that funds would be made available to local authorities arising from the water problems. We are awaiting a circular on that to see what the extent of it will be.

Each local authority is now carrying out a formal review of its roads and water operations, as well as examining lessons that have been learned and the costs incurred. At the end of last week we were advised that a major review is being initiated under the aegis of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, involving all agencies. That will summarise the extent of the cold weather and its impact, as well as summarising the generic emergency response arrangements and weather preparedness. It will also summarise the response from all agencies to the weather event and will consider the arrangements used to co-ordinate the response at local and national levels. The review will identify those aspects of the response that worked well and those which should be consolidated. It will also examine information mechanisms and will make recommendations on issues, gaps and deficits in the response. It will make recommendations as appropriate, including building on the work of the sub-groups on roads and water issues which were established at national level during the response.

We understand that the main report will be completed by mid-March 2011 and that it will be presented to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government or to the Government, as appropriate.

Chairman

I thank the delegates for their comprehensive submissions. We will now take questions and might group some of them. Deputy Hogan indicated first.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I welcome the representatives of the County and City Managers Association and thank them for their submissions. Through them, I convey the gratitude of this committee and the constituents we represent, to local authority staff and agencies who worked hard at local level to ensure that there was minimal disruption, notwithstanding the inconvenience caused to citizens by the severe weather.

It is not easy to deal with weather patterns that have become much different in the past 18 months to what we have been used to. I will ask some questions on a couple of areas. I regularly heard a man from the National Roads Authority on television who assured us about the availability of salt and the tonnages involved. He indicated that we had huge quantities of salt available to deal with any severe weather crisis. Was there a problem concerning the availability of salt? Did we have salt in the country or only access to it elsewhere, which is a horse of a different colour?

The quality of the country's water piping network has come under scrutiny. Based on observations by the County and City Managers Association, this year and last, is a major investment programme required to replace much of our water piping that has been there for a long time? Will the county and city managers comment on the lack of inspection of implementation of building regulations during the Celtic tiger era? Can the fact that pipes in new housing estates, in particular, are quite close to the surface be attributed to that lack of inspection? Is there a need for a programme to educate citizens in dealing with severe weather problems? We all know that households and businesses can take certain steps to ameliorate some of the difficulties that are subsequently encountered. Perhaps the delegates can comment on the need for such a programme.

Do the witnesses believe legislation is needed to facilitate citizens who may wish to remove packed snow and ice from footpaths and other places outside their properties? I understand such legislation is in place in other countries. We need to ensure people can remove snow and ice with impunity from public liability in the event that someone slips and falls on the area that has been cleared. Should we have a role in protecting citizens who are more than willing to help? We are aware of the extent of community involvement in rural and urban areas during the recent cold weather.

When further snowfalls take place, would it be helpful if salt and gravel were stored in bunkers in urban and rural areas? If community groups and citizens could access such supplies, they could help councils - perhaps under supervision - by spreading salt and gravel in estates and minor roads that local authority staff cannot access. Could a specific proposal be implemented to help local communities to deal with such matters? We would have to ensure such salt and gravel is not taken away in the summer period, when the weather is good, so that it is available in the winter period.

I welcome the indication that a report will be available within six weeks. That rarely happens when groups come before us.

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Phil Hogan

It was heartening to hear Mr. Crockett say that a review will be carried out, the local authorities will collate all the information and a report will be finalised in six or eight weeks. I have not heard that for a while. I commend the County and City Managers Association on that.

Chairman

I propose to allow a number of speakers to contribute at this stage. I ask the delegates to take note of the questions they are asked. If something is missed when they are responding, we can come back to the relevant member of the committee. I ask the witnesses to try to keep note of matters that are raised which are relevant to their particular areas.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I would like to be associated with the words of commendation to local authority staff that have been expressed this afternoon. When I contacted City Hall in Cork during the Christmas period - it was some time after St. Stephen's day - the guy who answered the telephone asked "Jesus, will I ever see the end of Christmas?". The Christmas period is usually a holiday time for local authority staff, but many of them had to work flat out in recent weeks.

This is the second winter in a row that we have experienced severe weather conditions in December and January. Perhaps we should now expect severe weather every winter rather than every 150 years, as suggested in the presentation. One of the key recommendations of a major study on flooding in the UK was that the risk of floods is here to stay - the UK authorities should see flooding as an annual event. Equally, we should consider severe weather conditions as an annual event. Rather than adopting a crisis-driven approach to such conditions, we should have a strategic plan to respond to them. There is a saying in Norway that there is no such thing as bad weather; there are just bad clothes. If one does not wear the right clothes, one will get cold. If one wears the right clothes, one will stay warm. Similarly, if one is prepared to respond to severe weather conditions, the effects of such conditions are not as severe as they would have been without such preparation.

Members of the County and City Managers Association appeared before this committee last year when it was compiling a report on the severe weather conditions of 2009-10. A number of concerns were expressed by the witnesses on that occasion. I was interested to hear what Mr. Crockett said this afternoon about concluding the association's report within six weeks. We met the Minister, Deputy Gormley, on 2 March 2010 when we were compiling last year's report, a copy of which I have with me. He said the need for an emergency response would be the focus of his review of the matter and expressed his wish that all important lessons would be acted upon. I assume that review is not the review mentioned in the presentation that has been made by the city and county managers. As I understand it, this time last year the Minister wrote to all local authorities to ask them for a list of recommendations, findings, lessons that needed to be learned and measures that needed to be put in place. As far as I know, that review has not been published or been brought before the Oireachtas. I understand that the County and City Managers Association submitted information to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government last year after it had conducted its review. I would be interested to hear some details of the response the Department has given to the association. My understanding is that one year on, the report in question has yet to be published.

I would like to summarise some of the significant matters that were raised by the representatives of the association when they spoke at this forum last year and to ascertain the level of action that has been taken in the interim period. They said there were serious issues with the procurement, storage and distribution of salt for roads. What measures and actions were taken by the city and county managers after what happened last year to deal with such issues? At last year's meeting, the witnesses also spoke about advance clarity on the recruitment of costs from central government. We debated the best way of providing financial resources from existing budgets when an emergency response is needed. Questions were asked about how the Department would respond in an emergency situation if €5 million had to be taken from an existing budget. Have the managers received clarity from the Department with regard to this significant issue which we debated last year?

Last year, concern was expressed that a list of vulnerable people living in a specific area did not seem to be readily available to the local authorities. It was argued that such a database is necessary to facilitate a co-ordinated and rapid response to those in need of attention, such as elderly people living on their own or communities that are isolated or become isolated during times of severe snow or flooding. Has any work been done on such a database? This committee recommended last year that it be pursued. We would be interested in hearing if any action has been taken in this respect.

Deputy Hogan alluded to another recommendation that was made last year. This issue was also raised at last year's meeting. I refer to the suggestion that the assistance of the public in clearing snow and ice from roads and pathways and gritting local and county roads be facilitated. Legitimate concerns were expressed regarding the health, safety and public liability implications of such an approach. The County and City Managers Association said at that time that clarity needed to emerge at national level on these issues to allow agencies to react appropriately at local level. That did not happen during the severe weather event that started in November 2010. Cork County Council, for example, did not provide grit and salt to local groups. Can I take it that the recommendation which was made last year was not acted upon? Is it the case that no clear position was put in place across all local authorities? It seemed in recent weeks that different local authorities had different approaches to the distribution of salt and grit to the general public.

People in most households that were without water over the Christmas period were reminded why perfume was initially invented. I will not give a further explanation of that. Those who experienced water shortages over the Christmas period, particularly people on a mains supply, will have learned that the bathroom cistern is the single greatest contributor to household water usage. Grey water is the type of water that is most abundantly used in a household. The smallest amount of water one uses is for cooking. A greater quantity of water is used to wash oneself and to clean one's house. The greatest quantity is the water one flushes down one's toilet bowl. Water of the same quality goes into one's kettle and into one's cistern. Do the managers agree we need to put in place measures whereby standard planning applications provide for rain-water capturing systems? We made similar changes in the past with regard to disability provisions and insulation.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

I would not like this occasion to pass without my paying tribute to the staff of the county councils in my area - Sligo County Council and Leitrim County Council - for the work they did over that period. I know people in the water services division who had no water themselves on Christmas Day and for days afterwards but were out there around the clock trying to get people sorted out.

One of the problems with water pertained to businesses. The first cut-off in our area was on Christmas Eve. This was unfortunate for businesses such as pubs, clubs and restaurants, which had been suffering for the previous three or four weeks because of slow business. On nights such as Christmas Eve and St. Stephen's Day, when people would expect to do good business, the water was cut off early in the evening. It is difficult to operate with a couple of hundred people on the premises and no toilet or water. Maybe if the water had been cut off earlier to conserve stocks it would have been better. Then, when the water was cut off, unfortunately, because pipes had not been placed far enough down in the ground, everything froze, and many people had no water at all when it was switched on the next day. People in my own family had no water for eight or nine days, which causes its own problems. This will have to be dealt with eventually. By and large, however, people were better prepared for bad weather than they were last year.

The roads in our area were kept open most of the time, although the N4 was nearly closed on one occasion on which there was a scarcity of salt. However, the salt arrived just on time and things were kept moving. Regional roads were pretty good. With regard to county roads, the IFA people in our area were very good. Our councils did supply grit to certain areas around the county where people could go and collect it, particularly housing estates which had steep inclines at the entrance that stopped people from getting in or out. The councils used Hymacs, diggers, tractors and trailers, and everybody came on board. It was much better co-ordinated this year than the previous year, although there are still lessons to be learned.

In our area, on St. Stephen's night at 1.30 a.m., my car gave the temperature as -22°C. That will give people some indication of the extent of the frost. Of course, there was no defrosting for eight or nine days. There are always lessons to be learned. I felt that business that had been struggling in previous weeks faced difficulties in having no water when they should have been doing good business. We should try to avoid this in the future if we can.

Chairman

We have had a good few questions, so perhaps we will have a response before they all get lost.

Deputy Johnny Brady

Can we not have them all?

Chairman

All right.

Deputy Johnny Brady

They are the same questions, anyway. Most of them have been asked. It is for everyone's sake.

Chairman

Grand. We will finish all the questions.

Senator Paudie Coffey

I will try to be brief and not go over ground that has already been covered by colleagues. I welcome the delegation from the County and City Managers Association. This is an important engagement between the committee and the association before it embarks on its review of the crisis that the country has gone through. I want to be associated with the praise for the efforts of local authority workers, who were out in all weathers. There has been some criticism, but they did go out there and carry out their duties in an efficient and workmanlike manner.

The witnesses mentioned the Army and the Civil Defence, and I know that contractors were engaged by the local authorities. Has there been any measurement of the extent of use of outside resources? Will that be a major part of the review? As far as I know, the Army was not engaged in Waterford city or county - Mr. Walsh might be able to clarify this - but contractors were engaged to quite a large degree, and farmers and the IFA also got involved. There was some confusion initially about whether voluntary support and resources could be taken advantage of by local authorities, but that was clarified. What are the views of the witnesses on that? Is it all right for community groups and volunteers to get involved and assist local authorities in their efforts?

The NRA was discussed. I would like the witnesses' further views on how they feel, as local authority managers, about how the NRA handled the issue of salt supplies. Was there adequate access to salt stocks for local authorities? Is the system working well, or are there areas in which improvement is needed?

We are aware that a high proportion of mains water is lost through leakage, even leaving aside the issue of freezing temperatures. I believe the national average is 40%. I acknowledge the investment that has gone into water treatment over the last number of years, but we have been reactive when it comes to addressing the problem of leakage. Many of our water networks are old and sub-standard. We are fighting a rearguard action already, so when temperatures fall below zero, it only exacerbates the problem. In addition, pipe work was installed poorly in many new developments, and this is falling back on local authorities to deal with. I would like the view of the witnesses on that. Developers were responsible for this, but many of them are probably gone now. Some of the estates may not have been fully taken in charge by the council, but the residents are asking the local authority what it is doing about the water supply, although the problem is in fact due to a poor standard of installation. Professional engineers signed off on those estates, yet local authorities subsequently find the building was substandard. What would the association like to see done to address this problem? It is contributing to water shortages in private estates and new developments, and it should not be, because the pipes should have been installed at a proper depth in the first instance.

I also feel strongly about the lack of proactive maintenance programmes for our roads and water networks. Is there any national database of road networks and drainage systems? Is there a database of water networks? That is, do we have accurate records of the routes, age and condition of water networks, when they were last maintained, the frequency of maintenance and any leakage repairs? Much information could be gleaned from such an asset management system if it did exist. I hope it does exist to some degree in local authorities. I would like to see a national asset management database for all networks, including roads and water mains. Until we have such a system, we will always be reactive; we will never be proactive in water and road maintenance, as we should be. I acknowledge that the county councils are working with one hand tied behind their backs when it comes to road and water network repairs, because they require major investment and it is not easy to find the money. We as an Oireachtas need to assist in finding solutions.

I will finish with a simple question of a technical nature. If a road has a tarmac surface, how more resilient is that surface than the ordinary tar and chip surface that we see on many local and county roads? How resistant is it to freezing temperatures? Does it break up as quickly as the tar and chip surface? I often see repairs made to local and county tar and chip roads at huge cost which break up again the following year, and this happens year after year. If there was a better solution in the form of tarmac, which could be laid once and would offer better resistance to weather and last longer, this would represent better management of State funds. I have asked a lot of questions, but I would appreciate it if the witnesses could address some of them.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

It is my understanding that the county council in each area is responsible for the motorways within its area. I was driven today from Kildare to Ennis. I am lucky to be here. The stretch of roadway from Limerick to Ennis was tarnished and there was a huge number of minor accidents, at least ten or 10, due to a slippery road. Who is responsible for the roads in these areas?

In Kildare, prior to Christmas, farmers were given small salting machines which were able to go to areas where salting lorries could not travel, particularly to schools where there was a steep incline. These machines, driven by local farmers, were able to go and salt the roads. Would it not be an idea if local authorities were given a discretionary grant each year to purchase a salting machine for their areas, at a cost of less than €25,000? Has the delegation consulted the general operatives in the local authorities who were out on the days and nights all over Christmas doing this work because they are the people who have the information and who can advise managers on how best to do it? While we paid compliments to the county managers I pay tribute to the PR people, particularly to Mr. Charlie Talbot in Kildare, who was a tremendous help to all public representatives. I am aware the county manager gets the credit but the PR people, particularly in Kildare, on this occasion were a tremendous help.

Ms Joanna Tuffy

I thank the County and City Managers Association for appearing before the committee. I too echo the compliments to local authorities for their work in trying to repair broken pipes and grit the roads during the holiday period. There was very good communication from many of the local authorities this time round. For example, my local authority e-mailed public representatives regularly and provided updates on Twitter, Facebook, the council website and kept in touch with the broadcast media and the newspapers. The way in which communication was managed was an improvement on the previous cold weather spell in January 2010. Improvements can always be made. Even in January many good things were done. There is a tendency to complain and not to acknowledge what works well and all the efforts put in by public sector staff, such as the local authorities and the various agencies. They do a great deal of work on our behalf to make services operate as smoothly as possible during a snow event.

An area where I would like to see an improvement during a snow event is in connection with people who have had breaks. I suffered a fracture to my knee during the rain before the cold spell, when slipping on a step. A break causes much hardship for people. I am always concerned about people, especially the elderly, who suffer head injuries. The shock to the system from a fall is bad for a child but is worse for an adult. Can more be done in terms of working with the Army or Civil Defence to have more secondary roads and footpaths in estates cleared, particularly roads to shops? Many older people had to remain in their homes while others did their shopping during the snow event. Would it be possible to invest in snow ploughs for the future? It is important to prioritise the main roads and move down a hierarchy of roads and paths. Obviously one has to do the best with the available resources. If people are breaking limbs that is expensive for the person concerned but it also has an impact on the public health service.

The next question concerns problems with water supply. In south Dublin it was managed quite well, apart from St. Stephen's Day, when water supply was cut off during the daytime. Generally, there were night-time restrictions but people were able to work around that because they were given prior notice. People in other areas had different experiences and some had to get water through other channels. Can water be stored through water restriction before shortages occur? Has that been tried out?

We need to repair our water infrastructure, given that up to 50% of water is not accounted for in some counties. It is a year round problem. Work has been done in some areas. For example, Dublin City Council spent €26 million on water infrastructure which, according to its engineers, saved 8 million to 10 million litres of water. Is there an overall audit countrywide of what needs to be done to repair the infrastructure? If that information was available a plan could be drawn up at national level as to how to proceed, according to priority? Is each local authority aware of what needs to be done in its area to repair its infrastructure?

Unfortunately I have to leave because I have another appointment but I will check the record for the replies.

Deputy Johnny Brady

I welcome the County and Managers Association. I welcome Mr. Crockett who was a former assistant county manager in Meath which is part of my constituency, and Mr. McLoughlin, who was also a senior official in Meath County Council, now Westmeath county manager. I thank Mr. McLoughlin and the Meath and Westmeath officials for the manner in which they worked during the dreadful weather conditions. It was very unusual and I do not think any of us ever witnessed two severe winters in the one year - in January 2010 and in November-December 2010. Everybody concerned must be complimented. There was a good deal of criticism in January 2010. None of us witnessed any like those weather conditions since the 1960s. In his presentation Mr. Crochett said the weather issue was similar in scale to some events in the 1940s and the 1960s. The only severe weather event I recall since the 1960s was the 1982 snow event but without the severe frost and the -15°C and -16°C temperatures. Driving around during the day to one's office or local authority and experiencing a temperature of - 8°C or - 9°C was unusual. All the organisations did a tremendous job. I pay tribute to all the organisations concerned, the Garda Síochána, the Defence Forces, Civil Defence, Health Service Executive, Irish Farmers Association, Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association, community groups and the local authorities who made grit available. In January 2010 grit was not available in many local authority areas but it was available in November-December 2010. That grit was available to schools and housing estates was extremely beneficial.

I agree with Senator Coffey that local authorities are moving away from the tar and chip surface to the tarmacadam surface on roads - that is the way to go. That is a better job and it lasts longer. I read a report recently, probably from the NRA or the local authorities, in a newspaper which stated that draining surface water off roads is and has been a problem for some time. We all understand it is a difficult problem in certain areas. I should like to be associated with complimenting our local authorities on a job well done. I believe it has all been said.

Chairman

I thank the Deputy. Before the delegates respond, I have a few observations to make. On some days we saw the Army on television clearing footpaths in Athlone and in a few other places where there are barracks. Could it have been involved somewhat more?

As regards the provision of water in tankers - in some places we saw co-ops - will the delegates explain the issue as regards the fire services? Their vehicles are owned by local authorities and they have facilities for carrying water, but there seems to have been some issue surrounding why they could not readily make water available. There is an issue here and I should like this clarified.

I thank the members of the committee. It is virtually unprecedented that every member of an all-party committee such as this would fulsomely praise staff on the ground. It was a phenomenal performance, despite the difficulties, and I have never before seen such praise being heaped on local authority staff members.

Mr. Joe Crockett

I thank the Deputies and Senators for their very kind words. Certainly, we shall convey them back to our colleagues in the other agencies and to our staff, both outdoor and indoor.

As regards the queries raised, we propose to address them thematically. I shall ask Mr. Walsh to respond on the roads and salt issues, Mr. Curran on the water issues, Mr. McLoughlin on the building regulations and the voluntary older persons' database, Mr. Phillips on the question of looking after brick piles on estates, and I shall deal with the inter-agency and broader issues.

Mr. Michael Walsh

I shall try to address the questions in the order they were put. I outlined in the initial part of the meeting that in reality we had more salt in the country than we ever had, heretofore, at that time of the year. There were 50,000 tonnes of salt when historically there would only be 10,000 tonnes, if it were not for the lessons from the previous event in the early part of last year.

We then accumulated sufficient stocks before Christmas to bring us up to more than 130,000 tonnes. As regards whether we had enough salt at the time the situation was being made known on television, the expectation was that we had. Then actions were taken to ensure that we got further salt supplies. As to whether there was a period within which supplies were tight, the honest answer is "Yes". However, everybody worked very hard to ensure that needs were met and the answer to the question is that we had enough salt for priority routes in the period. We should have liked to have more, of course, but this must be placed in the context of investment. The decisions to be derived from this review will address how far we must go.

Somebody asked a question about equipment. We replaced the snow plough in the past year that we had never used, based on antiquity considerations alone. Therefore, there is an investment proposition to be addressed in terms of how far we need to go in terms of preparing for such events. We must bear in mind that never before in November or the pre-Christmas period have we seen anything like the resources in use here. It did not even compare to last year's event in terms of the demands.

To put this in context, nearly 5,800 tonnes of salt were used on one night just to keep main routes free. In response to Deputy Fitzpatrick, a great number of lessons were learned based on the early part of 2010. There were significantly more stocks of salt and assets available, in some respects, in terms of dealing with the situation this time. The situation was far worse. I would argue that there is not necessarily evidence that such incidents are becoming more frequent. Statistically, one can view it as being a glass half full, or half empty.

As regards the cost of recoupment for the salt, the Minister, as Mr. Crockett said, made €15 million available before Christmas. We received payment in Waterford city and we were grateful for it, although I cannot answer for every local authority. As regards assistance from members of the public, I would argue that the community response in this instance was superb, and we should like to express our thanks to all members of the community who assisted in terms of the response. We also believe that individually and collectively we can improve on that. The particular incident in the context of Cork County Council I believe to be a misunderstanding. There were concerns in terms of health and safety. To be fair, this was corrected within a couple of days and I believe every local authority ended up giving out salt supplies and working with local communities, farming communities and others in responding to the immediate situation.

As regards the engagement of outside resources, we used contractors and voluntary resources when available. There is probably capacity to improve and enhance on that. We shall be seeking to learn from this experience in this context. As regards proactive road management, there are road management systems in place, generally as regards national routes, and a pavement management system is currently being developed in this regard. The extent of knowledge and information probably varies at local level, as between local authorities, but there are reasonably good records on roads. Perhaps these are not management proactive systems and will require investment if they are to be brought up to that level.

In terms of tarmac surfaces being more resilient, it can be clearly stated that our unimproved roads suffered more that those which had been improved. This includes national routes, secondary routes and other roads. Roads that had proper sub-bases and pavement structures did not suffer the damage wrought on designed roads which had been improved over the years. It is very simplistic to ask whether a tarmac surface is better. The reality is that a great many of our roads do not have a good sub-base. In other words, they do not have a good stone formation and have evolved from the horse and cart era. The key to maintaining such roads is to keep them sealed from water ingress. This is a crucial element. If a layer of tarmac is to be put over a thin sub-base, it will break up because it does not have the base for support. The structure is more rigid and as a consequence, it will break up. In a sense one has to have the sub-base before one uses the tarmac. It looks better at some level, I suppose, but there are technical reasons around the solutions being used in that area.

As regards who is responsible for road safety, given Deputy Fitzpatrick's reference to accidents, the reality is that local authorities are responsible for the majority of the network. There are concessionaires on the public private partnership elements, who are responsible for various sections as part of the maintenance element of their contracts. I do not know the particular location the Deputy has in mind, so I cannot comment on the specifics. However, based on my experience driving around, the NRA through training standards - as well as through the work we have done - has brought a great consistency to the application of de-icing and salting. Even as I was travelling this morning I found a consistency of application along the way. However, I do not know the particular location mentioned, so I would rather not comment on it.

In general we are happy with the use of small gritting and salting machines. Mr. Phillips might deal with Dublin in terms of the city centre as well as the minor road applications. There are lessons that we might learn from there as regards the use of smaller machines, but again this requires investment and there is pressure in this regard, in the context of the damage and other issues. I believe I have dealt with the majority of the road-related issues.

Mr. Tom Curran

I have been asked to speak about water. A number of members raised issues relating to the quality of the network. To put the matter in perspective, over €6 billion was invested in water and wastewater infrastructure between 2000 and 2010. Most of the money was spent on trying to meet EU requirements relating to the quality of supply - Ireland was being prosecuted for non-compliance - for example, by upgrading wastewater treatment plants to meet discharge standards. During that ten-year period secondary wastewater treatment capacity was provided for an equivalent additional population of 3.7 million people. Additional water treatment capacity was provided for an equivalent population of 1 million people across the country. Storage capacity was provided for a population of over 1.6 million people. The effect of such an approach has been that investment has concentrated on the quality of water and wastewater discharges, rather than on mains replacement.

We accept the point made by Deputy Hogan, Senator Coffey and others that the network is in dire need of replacement. I think everybody accepts this. I have mentioned there is an extensive network of 25,000 km in this country. It is probably bigger than the networks in most countries of an equivalent size. If we were to replace 1% of our mains network each year - over 200 km - a minimum of €100 million would be needed. Some €320 million has been set aside in the current water services investment programme for mains rehabilitation in order to reduce the amount of water not accounted for. We are starting a structured programme of mains replacement.

Deputy Tuffy referred to the need for a country-wide programme of prioritised water mains replacement. Each local authority is working with the Department to finalise and present its own individual mains replacement programme, based on a prioritised programme of works. Some authorities have finalised their programmes, while others are in the process of doing so. Funding will be allocated on the basis of a combination of county and national need. The short answer is that major investment in water mains is required.

Deputy Hogan has asked whether an education programme is needed. I believe it is. I do not think people are preparing themselves for adverse weather conditions like those experienced in the last couple of years. Over Christmas many people left their commercial and domestic premises unattended without turning off their main stopcocks or draining their attic tanks. If one turns off the mains, all one has to contend with is the water in the cold water tank in the attic. If there is a leak in such circumstances, the quantity of water will be small. If one's mains is running and one is away for a number of days, one will have a problem if there is a leak.

Deputy Phil Hogan

A leaflet drop by the local authorities, rather than politicians, may be required to explain to people what they should be doing.

Mr. Tom Curran

I agree with the Deputy and think that will be done. Mr. Crockett touched on this issue when he dealt with communications. When people contacted local authorities by telephone during the period of bad weather, many of the questions asked did not relate to emergencies. They asked whether they could use central heating or a back boiler cooker if they did not have water, for example. There is a need to educate people in a broad sense. We see this as a necessary part of the review. Perhaps we might expand on the "tap tips" initiative in Dublin. It is the same issue. I think that is something will come out of the review.

Senator Coffey has suggested a high volume of water is lost through leaks because the network is substandard. Sometimes there is confusion between water that is lost through leakage and that which is not accounted for. It is all classed as leakage, but I would draw a distinction between the over-use and the leakage of water.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch asked about the holding of grey water. I do not dispute that we need to examine further the possibility of harvesting rain water. Perhaps it needs to be dealt with in planning legislation that will cover future housing. It is sometimes difficult to retrofit existing housing, but we can do something about new developments. Treated water of a good quality should not be wasted by being used to flush toilets and for other purposes for which it is not required.

We do not have a comprehensive database of water mains for asset management purposes, although some local authorities have partial databases. The matter is being worked on by local authorities in a piecemeal fashion. Some of them are more advanced than others in this respect. I agree with Senator Coffey that it is required. If we pursue a policy of domestic metering, we will need to know the type of connections available and where they are, etc.

Deputy Tuffy has asked whether water can be stored in advance. Potable water can be stored for a limited amount of time. It has been suggested water quality issues can arise if treated water is stored for longer than 24 or 48 hours. It is not easy to store a huge amount of treated water.

The Chairman asked about the availability of the water for use by fire tankers.

Chairman

Yes.

Mr. Tom Curran

Some fire tankers are used in this way from time to time. One has to make sure they are available to deal with fires. The extent to which they can be used is limited. I am aware of local authorities which used fire tankers during the recent inclement weather. One needs to keep some of one's tenders in reserve.

Chairman

Is a consistent approach taken across all local authorities on this issue?

Mr. Tom Curran

To be honest, I would not be able to answer that question.

Chairman

We will come back to that issue.

Mr. Tom Curran

I think I have covered the main water issues, in general.

Mr. Danny McLoughlin

I have been asked to comment on two issues. Deputy Hogan and others raised the enforcement of the building regulations. As the committee is aware, local authorities operate within a code of practice that provides they should inspect between 10% and 15% of all developments. The code is not mandatory. The inspection rate was agreed with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. We produce a report on an annual basis. We assume the role of a watchdog, rather than a bloodhound. If one were to move beyond this, one would have to provide for mandatory inspections and a regime of fees to go with it. This can be considered further down the line. Two other issues arise in that context. Are the current regulations sufficient for temperatures of -15°C? A further technical assessment which will take place as part of the larger review will be required to answer that question. I emphasise that house purchasers have a personal responsibility to sign off on engineering and architectural works. When they are deciding on the state of repair of services, they should check whether they were properly constructed.

The second issue I was asked to comment on - the mapping of vulnerable people - was raised by Deputy Ciarán Lynch. I am not aware of the national position. It might be instructive for me to refer briefly to what we are doing in County Westmeath. We are working with the HSE, the Garda and Westmeath Community Development to map the locations of elderly people. I am aware that there are different categories of vulnerability. We are also working with a network of 42 groups which provide support for elderly people in the county. We estimate that we have digitally mapped approximately 60% of the elderly population. We are in ongoing discussions with the Data Protection Commissioner on the use of data held by other bodies. Data protection issues arise when it is proposed to use information for a purpose other than that for which it is currently stored. We are discussing the difficulties that have arisen in this instance with the Data Protection Commissioner. We hope the project will come to a positive end in the middle of this year and the primary response agencies will be able to use the database to deal with cases that arise during adverse weather. I am sorry I have had to confine my remarks to the local situation. I do not know what the position is around the country.

Mr. Michael Phillips

I was asked to speak about the issue of estates. Following the weather event of January 2010, the Minister for Transport asked the Attorney General to give an opinion on liability in respect of footpaths, etc. The clarification was received in time for the more recent event. As a result, the Department of Transport published a notice in public newspapers. We had argued that people would take much more notice if it came from a higher authority, rather than the local authorities. As we move on to the next phase, we will have to work with residents' associations in urban areas to identify how we go about ensuring the main ways out of estates are kept clear. We want people to use public transport during bad weather. That is why we use salt to keep public transport routes open. We try to keep 50% of footpaths in the main work areas clear in order that people can get to their workplaces. We then have to focus on the start of people's journeys, from their estates to buses or other forms of public transport. If we identify a number of key routes in an estate, we can ask the residents to work to clear them. We are looking at this, but it is at an early stage.

The next thing of which members must be aware, is that while using bunkers works in other countries, we are not too sure whether it will work here or whether the supplies will just disappear. We do not know how to go about it. We must decide on whether to use salt or grit. If we choose salt, how do we fund it? If we decide on grit, there are issues, first is that people tend to spread it too thickly if they use shovels and second, if it rains it goes down to the road gullies and this could lead to flooding. We have to tease out the issues and resolve them.

Another issue is the use of the Army. We appreciate in this arena that the Army has a limited number and use of its members is prioritised. If it has extra resources, they are made available. People tend to forget that people volunteer for service in the Civil Defence, and therefore they do a day job. One has to balance the resources to suit the situation. It is crucial that we mobilise the community effort for future severe weather incidents.

Mr. Joe Crockett

I thank the Chairman and members for the invitation to appear before the joint committee at the start of the major review process. I thank members for their kind comments and their perceptive questions.

Deputy Hogan raised questions on the use of salt. I agree with my colleague Mr. Walsh on this issue as at the end of the day salt supplies did become tight and it was very finely balanced. We were down to between 6,000 tonnes and 4,000 tonnes in late December before a shipment of salt came. Things had to be finely managed, but at the end of the day we succeeded. In addition, he asked about legislation around a legislative onus on citizens to remove packed ice. Our view is that while citizens in a number of jurisdictions must remove snow - it is easier to remove snow as it falls rather than waiting for the ice to form because it is exceptionally difficult to remove ice. The key is timing, to get the snow removed first. Other jurisdictions have that precedent and we would like to see that legislative question examined. Deputy Hogan also raised questions on the proposal to stockpile grit or salt and improve community resilience. That is something we will do. A number of my colleagues identified that in almost all counties and cities steps were taken, whether in conjunction with the IFA or ICMSA around the use of grit stockpiles and that was beneficial. The question of mainstreaming that lesson into an action, in particular in schools management and areas around schools is something that would need to be looked at for the coming year.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch asked about the lesson learned in relation to Cork. The fundamental question is whether there would be a mainstreaming of the lessons learned from each of the severe weather events we have had over the course of recent years because we have had a flood event, ice and now ice and water issues.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

We have had a drought in the middle of winter.

Mr. Joe Crockett

Absolutely. The community has been adapting to each of these different events. Our experience is that there has been an improvement in community resilience and response and the response of the different agencies. On the question of strategic planning for severe weather and major emergency planning and responses to critical incidents in drinking water, there are plans in place that are being improved as experience continues to deepen in relation to each of them.

Deputy Lynch raised the issue of the responsibility of the public. We would like to see further development on this issue. It is the case that the Attorney General and the Health Safety Authority gave advice, but we had two sets of advice about the legal liability of people who cleared snow on behalf of the community. Advice was issued on two occasions, but the opportunity should be taken in the coming year to provide a statutory basis for the advice.

Deputy Scanlon raised the question of the regional roads being kept open but that has been addressed by my colleagues. Senator Coffey raised questions on a national asset data base and on the supply of salt and they have been answered. Deputy Fitzpatrick asked about the motorways and the farmers and if we had consulted the general operatives. Most local authorities liaised on a daily basis with the drivers and the general operatives and the general service supervisors on the issues that presented on a daily basis. Obviously we will take their advice into account when we go into the next stage. I think the Deputy's point was well made.

Deputy Tuffy raised a number of aspects of the communications issue. Several members have acknowledged the efforts were made on the communications area. There is room for improvement particularly in the co-ordination at national level in communicating with other agencies. That will be improved significantly particularly in relation to schools. The question of liaising with schools and school agencies on school closures will be examined in this review. Deputy Tuffy also raised the question of fractures and head injuries. I know that the Health Service Executive in the course of its communications addressed those issues and we are not up to speed on that. I know the HSE brought extra assets to bear on the question of dealing with fractures and so on. Deputy Tuffy also raised the question as to whether we would invest further in snow ploughs and my colleague, Mr. Walsh, has addressed some of those questions. I know that it is the case that almost every single council improved its snow plough and salt and gritting capacity over the course of the past 12 months arising from the first bad weather incident.

The Chairman asked two questions. First, could the Army have done more? Obviously the Army's capability varied from region to region and area to area depending on its daily operational burden. From my perspective, I thought the Army was particularly helpful to us at this time and I know that all my colleagues as I rang them up over the different days acknowledged the very strong role the Defence Forces played. We thank the Defence Forces. The Army were better able to assist than on previous occasions. On the question of the use of the fire brigades, obviously a fire tender has a capacity of 2,000 litres whereas an actual fire service tanker might have a capacity of 10,000 litres. It is more effective and efficient to use a proper tanker than to use a tender, but there was not a uniform approach because conditions varied from county to county. We have swept most of the points at this stage.

Chairman

That is a systematic and comprehensive response. We have had a very good discussion and I will draw the meeting to a conclusion.

Once again I thank the county and city managers for their engagement with our questions and answers session. This was enlightening. The presentation gave good and useful practical information and it is great to see how it has worked its way up to the Department. When people have specific information they know the specifics of what was done. That is an indication of that as well. There is universal praise for all the council staff in what was probably the most difficult winter period. Let us hope we do not see such weather for another while.

The committee adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 3.30 p.m on Wednesday, 26 January 2011.