JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 12 Jul 2011

Governance Issues: Discussion with CIE Group

Chairman

The purpose of today's meeting is to meet with the newly-appointed chairpersons of CIE, Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann and Iarnród Éireann, to discuss the approach they will take as chairpersons and their views on the challenges facing their companies. This follows the recent Government decision to put new arrangements in place for the appointment of persons to State boards and bodies. The joint committee welcomes the opportunity to meet with the chairpersons in public session to hear their views, and we hope this will provide greater transparency in the process of appointments to State boards and bodies.

On behalf of the joint committee, I would like to welcome: Ms Vivienne Jupp, chairperson of CIE; Mr. Kevin Bonner, chairperson of Dublin Bus; Mr. Paul Mallee, chairperson of Bus Éireann; and Mr. Phil Gaffney, chairperson of Iarnród Éireann. Also present is Mr. John Murphy, Assistant Secretary General with the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport who will first outline to the committee the rationale for the new governance structure in the CIE group. We will then hear a presentation from each of the chairpersons, followed by questions from members of the committee.

Before we begin, I wish to remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official by name, in a way as to make him or her identifiable.

To commence, I will ask Mr. Murphy to proceed with his presentation.

Mr. John Murphy

Thank you very much, Chairman. At the outset I want to apologise for my voice as I have a bit of a problem with it at the moment.

The appointment of chairpersons is the first step towards a new governance model for the CIE group. By way of background, I should explain that CIE has been with us for a long time, since the 1940s. Back in 1986, the Transport (Re-organisation of CIE) Act 1986 established the three operational companies Bus Éireann, Bus Átha Cliath and larnród Éireann as subsidiaries of CIE as the main holding company. The intention was that the holding company would manage various central services, promote an efficient, coherent overall approach to transport services, monitor the performance of subsidiaries and assess competing demands for investment and funds.

There were a number of other objectives of the 1986 Act, which concerned keeping the level of public subvention under control while avoiding disruption to services or employment. The Act also aimed to improve morale in CIE, as well as improving the reliability and attractiveness of services at the lowest possible fares, and obtaining greater transparency in the allocation of costs between the different CIE activities.

In September 2000, the idea of a further reorganisation was considered, including the possibility of separating out the operational companies into fully independent competing companies. In 2002, a technical study of the implications of such a restructuring was undertaken, which concluded that the nature of the common services were quite complex concerning issues such as ownership of property, pension schemes, various insurance and other liabilities, debt management, the management of human resources and so on. In the event, therefore, those proposals were not proceeded with.

In 2000, Dr. John Lynch was appointed as chairman, and subsequently executive chairman. In that capacity, he took over the role of chairman of the subsidiary companies. He has acted in that role for the past ten years.

In considering what would be the appropriate structure going forward, it was decided that first, we should separate the role of chairman and chief executive. That reflected a number of considerations, including best practice in corporate governance. It was also decided that we should balance the role of non-executive directors of the CIE board and its subsidiaries, in addition to trying to encourage greater commercial efficiency as well as ensuring the effective management of CIE's group finances, property interests and pension schemes. It was also decided to provide the maximum autonomy by the subsidiaries to encourage greater efficiency, while at the same time ensuring necessary integration on shared issues.

That has been achieved by appointing separate chairs to each of the subsidiaries, and appointing them to the main board of CIE along with the chairman of the main CIE board. We are doing this at a time when CIE and the operating companies face many challenges. In the 2010 annual report, the previous chairman outlined both the improvements made over the past decade and the operating performance during the recession. Clearly, the CIE group will face further challenges. Our focus will have to be on financial sustainability, strengthening productivity and efficiency gains, and achieving a fully integrated, efficient and cost-effective public transport system.

The Minister has already met the chairpersons and has given them a general indication of the mandate. He has also indicated, however, that he would not finalise that mandate until the Oireachtas committee has had an opportunity to meet with them.

Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Murphy. I now call on Ms Jupp to make her presentation.

Ms Vivienne Jupp

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for the invitation to come here today and for the opportunity to introduce myself and describe my background and experience, as well as outlining my initial thoughts on my vision for the CIE group.

My background is that I have a bachelor of commerce degree and a masters of business studies from University College, Dublin. I have worked full-time in business since graduating in 1975. I had a 32-year career with Accenture, the global leader in consulting, technology and outsourcing. I started my working life as a management consultant and worked with many organisations across various industry sectors and Departments in Ireland. During that time, I led and delivered a succession of successful technology enabled business change initiatives in both public and private organisations. These change programmes drove business success and increased effectiveness and efficiency for the organisations.

I was made an Accenture partner in 1988, the first female partner in Europe. I ran its government business in Ireland for several years prior to getting promoted to my first role outside Ireland in the Accenture global network. I initially had operational responsibility for a group of countries including the Scandinavian countries, UK and South Africa. I held operational managing director responsibility for profit and loss at Irish, European and global levels. I spent my latter 12 years as a global managing director in various roles including, global risk and quality, marketing of global assets and service line and was an executive director in the government business unit.

I have been a member of several boards and Government commissions, including the review body on higher remuneration in the public service, 1995-2010, the covered institutions remuneration oversight committee and the IRTC which became the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland. I chaired Ireland's information society strategy committee and the Information Society Commission 1997 to 2000. I am a board member of the Michael Smurfit Graduate School of Business and the Irish Hospice Foundation. I chair the remuneration committee of Grafton Employment Group and the tourism recovery taskforce.

My experience as a management consultant working in diverse industries will enable me to understand CIE's value chain and what must be done extraordinarily well to achieve its vision. I am delighted to be asked to be the new chairman of CIE. I look forward to working with the three new chairs of the three operating companies, Phil Gaffney, Paul Mallee and Kevin Bonner. Their skills and experience are exemplary and each will be hugely valuable to CIE and the individual companies. Having spoken to each of them, I know we are all looking forward to our next three years as chairs and are enthusiastic about together driving CIE to further success. Working with all the other board members, and with the new governance structure, we are well positioned to do that.

Over the past several years, CIE management has been successful in reducing costs, faced with reductions in passenger numbers due to reduced economic activity and cuts in its State subvention. This has been achieved while maintaining a strong public transport service and making improvements in safety and productivity.

With further reductions in subvention and the ongoing difficulties of the economic situation, the CIE group will continue to have to target costs, to seek to raise revenues and to attract more people to its services, if it is to become financially sustainable. As chairman, I will strive to ensure compliance with the new governance structure and the Government's mandates. I will support the three new chairmen, the operating chief executive officers and the staff of CIE as they continue the good work that they have started. The aim is to deliver an excellent transport service that is safe, cost effective and accessible to the public.

Mr. Kevin Bonner

A Theachtaí agus a chairde, tá áthas mór orm teacht anseo inniu le mo cheapachán mar chathaoirleach ar Bhus Átha Cliath a phlé. Tá súil agam go mbeidh mé abálta bhur gceisteanna a fhreagairt go sásúil.

These posts were advertised in the newspapers and I was appointed following the submission of my CV to the Department of Transport. I am a graduate of University College Dublin and Trinity College Dublin. Most of my career has been spent in the Civil Service which I joined in 1967. I retired as head of the then Department of Enterprise and Employment in 1997. I was also head of the then Department of Labour from 1990 to 1993.

As head of the Department of Enterprise and Employment, my main task was to ensure the Department was fit for purpose, to have the best people in charge and to influence all Government policy on employment creation and enterprise. I had a close association with the negotiation of social partnership agreements from 1987 to 1997. I was involved in the drafting and enactment of the Industrial Relations Act 1990 which set up the Labour Relations Commission and reformed trade union law. I was also involved in implementing the Culliton report and reforming the employment creation agencies to form the IDA and Enterprise Ireland.

Since 1997, I have worked as a business consultant on a range of projects and have been and am a director of a number of private sector companies. I am a chairman of another semi-State body, Ordnance Survey of Ireland.

My main skills are those of being a manager who can lead, organise and develop. Bus Átha Cliath employs 3,400 people with a fleet of approximately 1,000 buses which carry 120 million customers a year. Between 2008 and 2011, costs have been reduced by €52 million. I look forward to working with the boards and management in Dublin Bus and CIE with a view to providing our customers with an efficient transport service at reasonable rates. In Dublin Bus this means implementing network direct, scheduled for completion this year; supporting and marketing the new network; and providing real-time information to passengers and integrated ticketing.

Mr. Phil Gaffney

I am very pleased to be given the opportunity to let the committee know about my background and thoughts on the way ahead for Iarnród Éireann.

On 15 August, I will celebrate 46 years as a railwayman. I joined British Railways in Scotland in 1965 on a five-year engineering student training scheme as a signalling engineer. On completion of that scheme I became involved in the delivery of resignalling schemes in Scotland and later, in London.

In 1977 I joined the Hong Kong Mass Transit Railway Corporation as a signalling engineer for the construction of the original line of the network. Subsequently, I spent 28 years with that company, latterly as managing director, operations and business development, having held positions as chief engineer and operations director. By the time I left Hong Kong in 2005, the network consisted of five lines, carrying 2.5 million passengers daily and was the most intensively used, most reliable and most profitable metro in the world. From 2002, I led the company's international business strategy which has led to operating franchises in London, Stockholm and Melbourne and building and operating metro lines in Beijing, Chengdu and Shenzhen in China.

In 2005 I relocated to County Cork and was fortunate to be invited to join the board of Iarnród Éireann as a non-executive director, a position I have held for six years. In addition, I have provided advisory services at senior management levels to a range of railway industry players, such as Network Rail, Transport for London, London Underground, Stockholm, Taiwan High Speed Rail Corporation and others.

For the past three years I have chaired an expert panel advising the board of Crossrail in London on railway systems. At an estimated cost of £15 billion, Crossrail is the largest railway project under construction in Europe. It will link the western railways at Paddington and Heathrow with the eastern railways at Stratford and Abbey Wood. In April this year, I joined the board of Crossrail as a non-executive director.

These are my thoughts on the way ahead for Iarnród Éireann. First, I am honoured to be given the opportunity to lead the company in this new governance structure and I look forward to the challenge with enthusiasm. As a member of the Iarnród Éireann board since 2006, I have knowledge, and am proud, of the many improvements in safety, service and productivity achieved by the management team during the last decade and Dr. Lynch has left behind firm foundations on which I hope to be able to build.

The current and near future economic situation we face means that, by necessity, we shall have to move forward and become financially sustainable, with reduced funding from Government. However, it will be essential that we retain as a core value the absolute prerequisite of providing a safe railway for our passengers and the public at large and a safe working environment for our staff. I look forward to working with Ms Vivienne Jupp and my colleagues on the CIE board in providing a more integrated and efficient public transport system for Ireland.

I see it as my responsibility to ensure that the Iarnród Éireann board has in place sufficiently broad and deep oversight mechanisms to ensure that we comply with the various governmental requirements and that the CEO is supported in his programme to continue to deliver the public service order contract with even higher levels of productivity and effectiveness and to bring the staff along with management in this challenging task.

A principal aim of the company must be to build on the good work of the past few years in delivering higher levels of safety performance, customer service and productivity such that we have a sustainable financial model and an accessible railway service which can compete with less environmentally friendly forms of transport.

Mr. Paul Mallee

It is an honour and a privilege to have been appointed by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, as chairperson of Bus Éireann and to the board of CIE group. I very much appreciate the opportunity to meet the committee today, in particular, to discuss the future direction of Bus Éireann.

As to my background, a management consultant, I am a recent alumnus of the global strategy consultancy, Booz & Company, formerly Booz Allen Hamilton, where I was an associate in its transportation practice, formally based in the Dublin office and, most recently, in the London office. A graduate of University College Dublin and the UCD Michael Smurfit Graduate Business School, I hold a masters degree in strategic management and planning, a bachelor of commerce degree and a certificate of professional competence in road transport operations management. I have a keen interest in and knowledge of both the national and international transport industry, and I have considerable experience in consultancy engagements in Ireland, the UK, mainland Europe, the Middle East and Australia.

A native of County Mayo, I am familiar both with the mechanics of the Irish public sector and with the vision of the Government's transport agenda. I have a clear understanding of the public transport framework and of the policy in Ireland having worked on a large number of consultancy assignments across various aspects of the transport industry.

As president and a fellow of the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport, CILT, in Ireland, I am regarded as an expert on the industry. My role requires me to work with a board of experienced professionals and members representing the industry to build consensus on best practice and represent CILT's position in the media and the public.

As to my qualifications, expertise and experience, I have experience in project appraisal, including economic and financial evaluation, as well as non-quantitative assessment. My in-depth experience of the procurement and implementation process for transport projects, including softer systems and IT projects and the associated change management issues, will assist me in executing the chairperson role at Bus Éireann. Working internationally, having spent much of the past two years on assignments, in particular, between the UK and the Middle East, I broadened my skill set and understanding of the global transport context.

Bus Éireann operates three businesses within one: the PSO services which are urban, commuter and rural; the school transport scheme; and commercial services, in particular, Expressway. The Deloitte report for the then Department of Transport showed that Bus Éireann is efficient and effective compared to its international peers, and this is a credit to the management of the company. Notwithstanding this fine record, and the achievements in addressing the effects of the recession to date, there are challenges ahead facing the organisation. These include maintaining service levels with reduced subvention will becoming increasingly difficult; the continuing uncertainty on the state of the economy as we aim to maintain and increase revenue; continuing the cost recovery programme and identifying how to create further efficiencies and effectiveness; and the implications of changes in fuel costs, and the pressure on the cost base.

I look forward to working with the chairperson of CIE, Ms Vivienne Jupp, the board of CIE, and the board and management of Bus Éireann in addressing the challenges facing us and to drive the necessary change and improvements for the country as a whole.

Chairman

As I stated earlier, we will be concluding this meeting at 4.15 p.m. As we have a well attended meeting, I want to ensure that all members who wish to ask questions will do so. I propose to take the questions in batches of five following which the representatives of CIE will be allowed respond accordingly and I ask members to confine contributions to questions rather than statements. I will call a member from each of the groups, starting with Deputies Humphreys, Dooley, Catherine Murphy and Coffey.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

On a point of clarification, should the questions be directed at individuals or grouped?

Chairman

Please group them.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

How do the representatives see the future of InterCity rail evolving in the context of the inter-city motorway network? For example, the express service by Matthews Coach Hire Limited from Dundalk to Dublin takes approximately one hour and 15 minutes and costs €12, compared to the Irish Rail service from Dundalk that takes one hour and 30 minutes and costs €29.40. That is one of the challenges.

On Bus Éireann, how will the company cope with what are often more efficient and effective private sector bus companies that offer a good service at a lower price, and the model in that regard? On Dublin Bus, I went through Mr. Bonner's CV with which we were circulated earlier and his statement. Within that context, what kind of business projects has Mr. Bonner worked on that equip him to run a company of 3,400 employees and a bus fleet of 1,000 buses?

Has the chairperson of CIE, Ms Jupp, thought about where the role of the CIE Tours International works out? Given that according to previous legislation the overarching CIE would eventually reduce, why should CIE as such still exist or will the group work to mechanisms where the three individual sections will take a stronger role in management and corporate governance? Does Ms Jupp see it at a stage where the current structure of CIE of which she is chair will eventually go?

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I welcome Mr. Murphy and welcome, in particular, the initiative that has been brought forward by the Minister to bring chairpersons before the committee. I would like to have seen a greater incumbrance put on this committee whereby we might ultimately have a veto in the event of us not finding the chairpersons to our satisfaction. That is meant as a broad statement and I recognise the real skill set that has been identified here.

If I may, I might make a brief political point. The Minister, Deputy Varadkar, in the past indicated that the previous Government had stuffed boards with hacks. I am delighted that when he became Minister, he recognised some with considerable experience among those so-called hacks that he identified and three of those before us today had already been appointed by the previous Government in various different roles. It is a recognition of their continued ability and experience. It has been recognised by the Minister who, I am sure, will make a statement in the future to overshadow what he had promised in the past.

It is early, considering that the individuals concerned are about to take up their roles as chairpersons in the various different companies. I would ask, as I am sure it can be formalised through the committee structure, that within a month of them taking office they would come back before the committee with a much more detailed presentation. I recognise that today is more about themselves and the capacity and experience that they will bring to those roles but from the point of view of the workings of the companies, I would ask that they come back within a month, perhaps, considering we are running into the holiday period, to give an overview from their perspective as to the position of the individuals companies. That would afford the committee a better opportunity to consider the detailed work they do.

I acknowledge the role of the outgoing chairperson of CIE, Dr. John Lynch, who held that executive role. He appeared before the previous committee on numerous occasions and the sterling job he did as a public servant should be recognised by the joint committee.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I note that three of the four witnesses come with strong business backgrounds. I acknowledge the need to make these companies efficient and sustainable but what are the witnesses' views on the social component of public transport delivery? One of the two components of the Dublin Bus network review involves the delivery of orbital services. Are these services off the table at present or are they likely to be delivered? Do the witnesses use public transport themselves? There is a connection. Part of the reason integrated ticketing has not been delivered appears to be conflicts between parts of the company. Is the project likely to be delivered on time? The deficit was €58 million in 2010 but what is it likely to be in 2011 and how is it proposed to make up the shortfall?

I was impressed by Mr. Gaffney's experience with rail services in Hong Kong. Our rail system was primarily developed in the 19th century and difficulties arise because much of it is not networked. Is that going to be a priority and was there a single ingredient that made Hong Kong's service the best in the world?

In regard to the role of the National Transport Authority in licensing services, it would be useful for us to know if conflicts arise. One of our biggest problems was the failure to take seriously the integration of land use and transportation. I am interested in hearing the witnesses' views on how retrofitting can be achieved given the dispersed nature of our population relative to public transport networks.

Deputy Brian Stanley

As integrated ticketing was already raised, I will not rehearse the issue. However, consideration needs to be given to joining up the services provided by Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann and Iarnród Éireann. I would like to see more progress being made in this regard because the potential arising from the fact that the three companies operate under the umbrella of CIE has not been developed as much as it should have been and the information technology systems are now available to co-ordinate activities.

I ask Mr. Gaffney and Ms Jupp to speak about the production of sleepers. The concrete sleepers that started to replace wooden sleepers 25 or 30 years ago were constructed in a siding adjacent to the old Kilkenny-Abbeyleix line. I understand they were produced in Portlaoise according to a German patent. They were of a high standard and the cost of their production was competitive, particularly when they were produced in large numbers. Anyone with a business background will be aware that the more the scale of production is reduced, the greater the expense becomes.

The scale of sleeper production has been reduced over the years and products have been imported from other jurisdictions and parts of the country. This raises serious issues for the committee in terms of our responsibility for environmental matters because of the carbon footprint left by articulated trucks transporting heavy sleepers across the country. Are sleepers currently being imported and what are the plans for the future? Transport 21 and the plans to upgrade the network present an opportunity to develop this business.

Chairman

I ask the Deputy to direct his questions to operational matters or questions regarding functions of CIE.

Deputy Brian Stanley

This issue relates to functions. This is the only forum open to me to raise it.

Chairman

I accept that the Deputy is outlining the background to the issue but I encourage him to ask questions.

Deputy Brian Stanley

These executives are new to their respective posts and I want to make sure they know what I am speaking about.

Chairman

The Deputy has had sufficient time to do that.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I will not take any longer than anyone else. How many sleepers are required, where are they sourced at present, what percentage are produced in Portlaoise and what are the company's plans in this regard?

Ms Vivienne Jupp

I will start and my colleagues will respond to the questions that relate to their areas. I am a user of CIE services. I take the No. 7 bus and the Dart is also close to me. As the head office of a company of which I am a board member is located in Belfast, I regularly take the train to that city. I am both familiar with those services and quite impressed with them. The social provision - I cannot recall the precise phrase used - is important and that is why we receive a subvention. We use the subvention only for services that are covered by it.

All of us would like to see the integrated ticketing system being introduced at the earliest opportunity because it will offer significant benefits for travellers in terms of how they use our services. The lead agency with responsibility for implementing integrated ticketing is the Railway Procurement Agency and the CEOs of all the CIE companies sit on the steering committee. They are working to get the system implemented as quickly as possible because of the convenience it will provide for customers and the attractiveness that will result for the public transport system overall. The project is at an advanced stage and interim cards are already in operation on Bus Éireann and Iarnród Éireann, as well as on our competitors' services, such as the Luas.

This is a complex project involving a variety of components and players but our goal is to introduce phase one, at least, before the end of the year. I do not know the exact date but I will be following up on the matter.

Mr. Kevin Bonner

The first question to me concerned by business experience. For the past several years I have worked in the private sector as director of a number of companies. I was chairman of Waterford Stanley for a number of years, which has nothing like the turnover of Dublin Bus but is none the less a successful operation with a workforce of 300. The principles of management are transferable across disciplines.

At one stage I ran the Department of Enterprise and Employment, an organisation which is much bigger than Dublin Bus. The Department's budget was €2 billion and it employed 800 staff directly and a further 3,000 in the agencies under its remit. I was directly responsible for organising them and ensuring they ticked over and, as Accounting Officer, I reported to the Committee of Public Accounts for the Department's expenditure. I have experience in organising people and ensuring the resources are made available to achieve objectives. I have since then honed that experience by working in the private sector and I am a director of several private sector companies which have as their objectives not only social or economic ends but also the achievement of profit. I have those attributes and skills of leadership, development and organisation to do this job.

The other question I was asked was about orbital routes. I am afraid I cannot give the committee a definitive answer on that because I have only taken up the job and I have not been briefed on it but orbital routes are difficult and they will not make money. I am a user of Luas, Dublin Bus and the DART and the orbital route I use is the No. 144, which runs from Blackrock to Sandyford on the south side. Some orbital routes work reasonably well but they tend to be a cost rather than routes that make money. I am not sure what are the plans for the future. In the current difficult environment, I imagine orbital routes will be more difficult than ordinary routes. With Network Direct, all the routes are being simplified. Orbital are more complicated and, therefore, not a simplification.

Mr. Paul Mallee

I am a user of public transport services and I am familiar with orbital routes around Dublin and radial routes into Dublin from the country and Mayo, in particular. With regard to efficient private sector operators and competition between them and Bus Éireann, Bus Éireann has been shown to be competitive in a number of studies. Its services are well regarded in the market and it is not afraid of competition on routes. While it is early days in terms of reading into the role, if one looks at the services the company provides, the breakdown of its revenue streams from Expressway services on the commercial side at 20% versus other aspects of its business, it is favourably operating within the commercial sphere.

I refer to my experiences as somebody who can oversee an organisation of this scale. As a management consultant with more than ten years experience working at board level within organisations, I have considerable experience of understanding how companies at the most senior levels work, how decisions are made and how strategies are implemented and developed. In particular, working as a strategy consultant, I have considerable experience of working through business plans and strategies with organisations and then working with them to implement those. Going back to my experience with CILT, that organisation represents the transport and logistics industry in Ireland and I worked with a broad array of talented individuals on its board for the past six years. In the past four years, I have served both as vice-president and president or chairman. I have gained a lot of experience of managing boards in running that organisation bringing together diverse views and teams of people to implement a strategy or plan. That is transferable across this piece as well.

The social component is an important part of what Bus Éireann does. Its routes around the country are vital. It is such a fundamental part of the fabric of transport infrastructure in Ireland and will continue to be. I hope to play my part in growing and developing it over the coming years.

Mr. Phil Gaffney

I have always been a user of public transport. I have lived for the past five years in west Cork and, therefore, it is a little more difficult to be a regular of public transport when I am at home but, in Dublin and going around Ireland, I am a user. Even in a commercial environment such as Hong Kong, we recognised that there is a significant social component in the delivery of public transport and that is the case here. That is a strong component of any public transport system.

With regard to the competitive challenge, the improvements to the road network throughout the State have led to serious competition issues for Iarnród Éireann and these challenges have to be taken up. The company is looking at ways in which it can become more competitive. That will, by necessity, mean a look at reduction in journey times, particularly on the major Intercity routes.

I was asked why NTR was the best in the world. It is linked to the Deputy's subsequent question regarding integration of land use and transport planning. Hong Kong had the opportunity in building a network from scratch and there was a huge element of integration of land use and transport planning. To help fund the railway, property and property rentals associated with the railway were developed by the railway company and the profits helped to fund subsequent extensions. The other reason for it being successful was a holistic approach to the delivery of the service and, latterly, that included an extensive contactless smart card system, similar to that being introduced in Dublin. An integrated ticketing system is a necessary component to achieve the high levels of integration of the network that make public transport successful.

With regard to Deputy Stanley's question about the production of sleepers at Portlaoise, I am aware of the concerns. I do not have the detail. I will go back to the company and make sure it is aware of the concerns. I will get back as to what the plans are for the production of sleepers.

Ms Vivienne Jupp

I refer to the question about the relationship with the NTA, which is our licensing authority. I am aware of how important the relationship of CIE is with the authority and I have a meeting organised with the chief executive officer and the chairman of that organisation within the next week or so. We will ensure that this relationship is good and maintained at that level.

Deputy Paudie Coffey

I thank the various chairpersons and Mr. Murphy from the Department for appearing before the committee. I also welcome the Minister's initiative to give the chairperson the opportunity to introduces themselves to the committee. We will have many more engagements over their terms and I wish them will in these challenging times for us all.

I note the credentials of every chairperson who is taking over his or her company in a challenging environment. They have all acknowledged in their submissions the much reduced subvention in coming years and the main focus will have to be on the maintenance of services with less money and higher productivity. I acknowledge the improvements that have been made by some of the companies with new buses and rolling stock over the past number of years. The challenge will be to maintain that standard during their terms in office. Dublin Bus operated a service in Waterford city in my constituency during the Waterford Tall Ships Race. I was delighted to see that. People said it was strange but it was not. Administrators were thinking outside the box and using resources in the State where they were needed. We need more of that flexibility to utilise all the State's resources, not just those of public transport companies.

I note Ms Jupp's credentials with regard to management of change and technology and the integrated ticketing system falls into her barrow. She has the expertise to implement such a system swiftly with her new colleagues. It is the biggest public transport issue to have a flexible integrated ticketing system in order that people can jump off and jump off every mode of public transport. That will attract new passengers. It should be a priority for every chairperson.

I note Mr. Gaffney's comments and his experience in building new networks in Hong Kong. His challenge here will not be building networks but maintaining them. Will he make it a priority to protect as far as possible established rail routes even those that may have closed recently? I will mention one close to my heart, which is the Waterford to Rosslare line. It is important the integrity of this line, whether it is utilised or not, is protected because it may become sustainable again in the future. It connects Rosslare Europort with the gateway city of the region, namely, Waterford. It is a challenge in itself to protect railways that might not be utilised.

In a way, Mr. Gaffney is sitting beside his competition because Bus Éireann uses our motorway networks, and Iarnród Éireann and Bus Éireann compete for the same passengers travelling between the country's cities. It will be interesting to see the dynamic of how this will be managed. I mentioned improvements in train carriage rolling stock and services. I ask that railway scheduling and systems match up as far as possible with the passenger demand of major colleges and work locations. There is no point in running trains into Waterford city to service Waterford Institute of Technology if they are too late for people to start work or college. This is also true for Dublin, Cork and other destinations. Railway scheduling is key to meeting the demands of modern society and I ask Mr. Gaffney to concentrate on it.

Mr. Gaffney did not mention experience in commercial freight rail networks. Most of his experience is with passenger rail. I believe commercial freight can provide huge opportunities and Iarnród Éireann would not have to compete with Bus Éireann to take freight off the motorways. Our rail network provides a huge opportunity to take heavy freight off our motorways. This morning, I drove from Waterford and I noticed the enormous amount of articulated lorries on the road. Much of this freight should be carried by rail. Will Mr. Gaffney actively engage with ports and major companies to achieve this?

I wish Mr. Mallee well as chairman of Bus Éireann. The maintenance of services is a huge challenge for him. I ask him not to forget about rural Ireland. Dublin can look after itself with Luas and Dublin Bus but rural Ireland depends on Bus Éireann for transport to major cities. From next September, school transport will be a big challenge for the company. I encourage flexibility, logistical solutions and value for money in delivery. The company receives a large element of the public purse to administer and manage the school transport system. I hope with Mr. Mallee's logistical experience he can introduce changes to obtain the best value for money, protect as many services as possible and deliver school transport in as many areas as possible.

Deputy Seán Kenny

I thank the four chairpersons for appearing before the committee and for presenting their CVs, which are very impressive. In particular, I welcome Mr. Gaffney's CV. His experience of railways in Scotland and in metro and rail systems throughout the world is very impressive. I suggest we invite the four chairpersons to come before the committee again after six months so we can evaluate the progress that has been made in the meantime.

Chairman

In response to this suggestion, Deputy Dooley made a similar suggestion for a follow-up meeting after one month. This might be premature. I envisage that over the period of the Government, the chairpersons either collectively or individually will attend the committee regularly, and by regularly I mean on an annual basis as opposed to a quarterly basis. I note there should be follow-up to today's meeting.

Deputy Seán Kenny

I thank the Chairman.

I have a number of questions. I frequently hear complaints about the Irish Rail seat reservation system. Recently, a constituent travelled to Waterford for the tall ships festival and reserved seats. He had no difficulties with the journey down but on the return journey when he arrived to take up his seat he found the seats he reserved had not been identified as such and someone else was sitting in them. Other people on the train experienced the same problem. I had heard about this type of problem previously but this was the first case where somebody could give me particular dates and times. It appears that something in the seat reservation system is not working properly and it should be examined.

Regarding Dublin Bus, frequently we hear complaints about somebody not having the exact fare getting a receipt for the balance. In order to collect the refund, the person must go to an office on O'Connell Street. People can buy in advance bus tickets such as ten-journey tickets from retail outlets throughout the city, which is admirable because it saves journey time for the bus as the driver does not have to waste time issuing tickets when the bus could be moving. Could these retail outlets provide refunds or accept the refund coupon as part payment towards a bus ticket? It would simplify the system and the consumer would be more satisfied.

My constituency has six DART stations, including Raheny, Howth, Portmarnock and Clongriffin. I hope it will be extended to the airport. It is one of the proposals being considered. DART and rail services are key issues in my constituency and it is important that service levels are maintained. I accept that everybody is moving into challenging times. The PSO level in this country is already lower than comparable European countries. In the economic climate we are in I do not think this will change. This will present a challenge to everybody.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I thank everyone for attending the meeting. It must be very daunting to listen to people trying to get at them but it is not intended that way. The payment for the chairpersons is very modest on the face of it; it might be a great deal of money to other people but it appears to be modest.

I would like to see local people being represented on the boards which the witnesses will chair. These would be actual users of the services and not from the private sector or agencies. There are major challenges to be faced and many issues arise. The cutbacks in Dublin Bus are massive. We are told there is not enough money in the Dublin region. We have the lowest subventions in Europe and receive less money than any other European country, but we are being forced to cut back further. This is a challenge and we need to fight very hard. I hope the chairpersons of the boards will fight the corner for more funding, particularly for Dublin Bus, and not acquiesce to the Government stating there is not enough money. This is a very important issue.

School transport raises major issues for rural communities. Some of the recent proposals are very challenging for people and will make life very difficult for people in rural communities. I would like this area to be examined. From the ordinary person's point of view, it needs to be fought not only on the basis of how much money is available but what is right. If money is not available it is another day's argument. We have to fight the corner to get the money.

Public transport is a big challenge, particularly in the Dublin region with the argument about whether we should deliver metro north and the cost involved. I am in favour of metro north because of what it can deliver. It is costly but in the long term it will deliver more in terms of jobs and public transport. The north side of Dublin has been neglected compared with the south side. We have heard this argument 1,000 times, but we need to deliver a proper service to Dublin Airport and the commuter belt stops of IKEA, Northwood and so on. This is a major issue for the people of Dublin's north side in particular.

Deputy Clare Daly

I echo Deputy Ellis's last point. As a resident of north County Dublin, my use of public transport is limited by the poor level of service provision, in particular the routes not on the DART line. I urge that attention be given to those areas.

I would welcome it if the representatives returned to the committee. A year is too long and a month is too soon, so somewhere in between when we could ask more substantial questions would be useful. What are the witnesses' key objectives in their new roles? Dublin Bus has the catchphrase "Serving the Entire Community", an ethos with which I agree, but its job is stifled somewhat by the level of subvention it is receiving and the Department's interference in terms of supporting applications from private operators to cherry-pick routes. What is the relationship between the CIE group of companies and the Department? Are they servants or masters? It is a slightly unfair question in this environment.

Regarding the difficult backdrop against which the groups will be operating, namely, the reduced subvention and the need to cut costs, a large portion of it will be and has been shouldered by the workforce. How will the groups make decisions operationally and in their dealings with trade unions? For example, some of Iarnród Éireann's revenue procurement staff must go out on trains on their own and try to fine people on the spot. They have no colleagues or witnesses with them and are often placed in vulnerable situations in which their jobs and reputations are on the line. It is not safe for workers to be put in that position and I would like the matter to be investigated. From a worker safety point of view, there should be a minimum of two people. How do the groups' view their dealings with the trade unions? Many staff have already taken a great deal of pain. How will relations progress?

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

I welcome the new chairpersons. It is a welcome development that we have an opportunity to address them. The new governance structure under which they all have positions on the CIE board can only be to the benefit of the provision of transport services. I congratulate them on their new roles, as there was quite a lot of competition for the positions.

How does Ms Jupp intend to address CIE's deficit? What ideas does Mr. Bonner have on improving the scheduling of services? This is an important issue because, if we are to make a success of integrated ticketing, we need services that run on time. In light of Mr. Gaffney's international experience, how do we compare internationally and how will he effect change to our benefit? Has he plans to introduce better procurement procedures? Passenger numbers have been decreasing since 2007 and will be a problem for Mr. Mallee. What are his ideas to increase numbers while reducing costs? If he has not already done so, will he consider how to link up with the rural transport programme, which is a door-to-door service covering all of the country? There is a gap between the two services. I would welcome Mr. Mallee's opinion in this regard.

Ms Vivienne Jupp

Each chairperson would agree that we have been appointed at a challenging time. As we have only been in our jobs for a couple of weeks, we are just beginning to understand the scale of that challenge. From the Minister, we understand it is likely to grow, given his statement that the State subvention level will be further reduced. Therefore, we will need to look at all sorts of options for delivering a service in that environment. Someone mentioned flexibility, which will be a key factor in our review. We have not conducted the review yet and all manner of options are on the table. When we get the information from the Minister, we will sit down to examine our various options.

We all see ourselves as advocates for public transport in all its guises and as having a responsibility for promoting and encouraging its use and for ensuring we have the best service that makes people want to use it. This brings me on to the question of integrated ticketing, which was raised by a number of members. It gives us an opportunity to relaunch the service and try to attract new customers. We will need to pull together many elements to ensure that, as we launch its various phases, there is something in it for the passenger, thereby attracting more passengers. Our goal is not only to win back the passengers we have lost, but also to increase overall passenger numbers.

I was asked about the relationship with the Department. CIE and its group of companies must work with many people. I hope those relationships will be cordial, productive and co-operative. I will try to ensure this is the case. I am sure there will be robust exchanges between the various players in the transport field, but this should only be expected if we are to get the best result for our customers, the passengers who use our services daily.

Mr. Kevin Bonner

Deputy Kenny's suggestion on the unspent part of a fare is a good one. I am not able to give him a "Yea" or "Nay" now, but I will take his suggestion to the company, see what I can do and revert to him.

Just like the other companies, Dublin Bus is in a difficult situation. For the past three years, our costs have been cut by €58 million. This could not be done without interfering with services in some way, but that is the practical reality of life. Given that we will be depending on a smaller subvention and passenger numbers have decreased, the environment will be a difficult one. The minimum we should try to achieve is the maintenance of existing services. As Ms Jupp stated, we must try to make our service more attractive. I mentioned two major measures in my opening statement. First, integrated ticketing must be made attractive so that people start using it and bus drivers are not stopping to give out fares. People should be able to walk on and off quickly. Second, passengers must be provided with real-time information on when buses are coming. The members have experienced arriving at a bus stop and asking whether and when a bus will come. In the near future, one will be able to go to a bus stop and know that the bus will arrive in five or ten minutes. This will make the service attractive to customers.

We must also try to maintain the comfort of the service in terms of the stock. If we are to have comfortable, good buses, it must be done by way of bus replacements and so on.

I can say no more. Above all else and before we consider other possibilities, I will try to ensure that current services are maintained. As Ms Jupp stated, we will be given an idea of what the subvention will be later this year. We will then need to tailor our cloth to the parameters set for us by the Minister and the Department. They are given to us by the Minister and Department later in the year.

Mr. Paul Mallee

With regard to the role and how I see it, in the first instance Bus Éireann is an integrated and nationwide bus service management company. Ensuring the services exist which are required and demanded by passengers is the fundamental point. We must maintain what exists and the priority is, to the best extent, to ensure there are no major curtailments or cuts to services. We should preserve what exists. The financial stability of the company will be key and I will certainly focus on that.

Deputy Kennedy asked about decreasing passenger numbers and how we will drive increases. Similar to my colleague at Dublin Bus, Mr. Bonner, there is a focus on introducing real-time passenger information, improved website technology and getting systems in place which are more attractive to the customer. For example, there is the introduction of bus rapid transit, BRT, light. It is a scaled back version of bus rapid transit, with double deck buses with wi-fi and various other attractive features within a city environment. That could drive demand from a customer perspective and provide a degree of attractiveness to the service. That would be an advantage to the company in securing an uplift in the number of passengers.

There are a number of commercial arrangements in place with private operators to draw customers within the fold, with an example on the Galway route. Bus Éireann has a commercial arrangement with a private company that runs the service on the motorway, with Bus Éireann still running the service through the towns along the route. We are looking to find that balance between services that are directly run by Bus Éireann and those entered into through commercial arrangements to ensure we capture the needs and requirements of the vast majority of customers.

The rural transport programme is an operational issue that I will discuss with the chief executive and we will revert to the committee on that.

Mr. Phil Gaffney

Deputy Coffey spoke well about the protection of what we have and what we recently had. We will take that on board. The point of matching centres of usage to the timetable was also well made. Recently there have been improvements in that area, particularly with the Kildare route timetables, where there was a longer period of consultation and adjustments made to that. I am sure that will roll forward into other areas.

Deputies are correct that I do not have any direct experience in freight, although I was involved in a freight railway in China which carried a few billion tonnes of freight every year. Iarnród Éireann has rationalised the freight business over the past few years, and in the past two years it has returned to profitability. Last year we saw nearly a 10% growth in the business, which has been achieved by focusing on train loads point to point. One of the modest success stories has been timber from Ballina to Waterford pulp mill. Tara Mines continues to provide a good stream of revenue.

This is the way forward. There should be a very focused system where train loads go from point to point, working with freight forwarders and other companies, with them providing the loading, unloading and distribution. Freight will remain part of the future for Iarnród Éireann. There was a point about seat reservations, the bane of every operator's life. I am sure the Deputy will be contacted in order to get the details. My understanding is there were initial problems with seat reservations but these have improved.

On revenue protection and the general point of staff, in trying to achieve a financially sustainable model delivering good customer service, my experience is this can only happen by bringing everybody along. Management and staff must be involved or else goals will not be achieved, particularly with regard to revenue protection. The company is not in the business of putting anybody in any danger from a health and safety perspective but I do not have the detail of the points raised by Deputies in this respect. I will take them back to the company but we must bring everybody, as a team, along in order to get where we want to be.

There was a point on international comparisons but it is very difficult to compare Iarnród Éireann to modern Asian railway systems because they have had so much money invested in them. Interestingly, when we benchmark Iarnród Éireann in terms of train performance and productivity within European railways, the company scores well above average. Many good practices have been introduced to Iarnród Éireann and there has also been investment in trains and infrastructure, which has brought about a performance benefit.

Procurement is an area where I have seen improvements over the past couple of years. It is an area of particular interest and focus for me and the board and will be for the next year or two.

Chairman

Before bringing in other members I will ask a few questions. It was indicated earlier that there is a payment in remuneration. It is something like €31,000 per annum for the chair of CIE and €21,600 for subsidiary chairs. What is the engagement contact time with the company? Are the meetings chaired on a fortnightly, quarterly, six-month or annualised basis? With executive officers in the company, what are the roles with regard to senior management and line management issues? What is the duration of the appointments? Are they for the lifetime of the Government?

Everybody's experience of public transport comes down to three factors: predictability, reliability and confidence. If people have confidence in a service they will use it and other factors, such as cost, will come into play. The Cork to Dublin line is probably the route which has seen the most investment in the country, and there is now a service on the hour, every hour, with the exception of 8 p.m., from Dublin. There is a similar service travelling from Cork on the half hour. That has been a successful service, with an innovation coming from competition with Ryanair and a motorway journey of less than three hours. Reduced fares were introduced, with tickets available for €10 or €20 off-peak. I have noticed that lately there appears to be no off-peak tickets, and every fare is the same. There are also credit card and other charges so a ticket that cost €12 in the past now works out at €40 at similar times. It would be interesting to hear Ms Jupp's comments on that.

Ms Jupp has come with an extensive background in different businesses but has not worked in the transport sector before. How will she compensate for that? Mr. Bonner comes with a very extensive industrial relations background and he may require this over the coming period. What sort of issues will emerge as challenges for the work force and management in the reform of the Dublin Bus structure?

If ever the term of "railwayman" applies, it is certainly relevant to Mr. Gaffney and his experience. He spent time in Hong Kong. With regard to his period in Hong Kong, I note that the Financial Times was conducting interviews with him over a number of years. He made some observant comments regarding his experience in Hong Kong with the introduction of automated and driverless trains. Is that something he anticipates happening in the future with Iarnród Éireann or even with the Luas service? Will we eventually have a situation where there will be no drivers and automated transport?

I wish to make some observations to Mr. Mallee about the bus services. I will refer to my native city because we are familiar with the buses we used when we were growing up. The Nos. 2, 3 and 7 cross from one side of Cork city to the other. I am sure there is the same system in Limerick, Waterford and other cities. Is it not time to consider having orbital routes in our cities so that the concept of a bus starting its route on one side of the city and travelling to the other side, thus congesting the city centre, becomes something of the past? We should have buses coming in from the suburbs and returning to them. To refer to my earlier point about predictability and reliability, we would have a faster and more efficient service.

Finally, you spoke about real-time information. That is a welcome development as it increases confidence in the service. When do you anticipate it being rolled out more extensively across the country? My parliamentary assistant also asked me to ask if you would give consideration to introducing a phone application for an iPhone or smart phone whereby I could tell when the No. 45 is arriving. It would save the company money from the point of view of putting the information on a pole, it would be vandal proof and is something of which everyone could avail.

Ms Vivienne Jupp

I have obviously had experience with working in management in large organisations that are faced with a range of challenges. I believe this will help me with working on the issues that CIE must address. Also, due to my background and the training I have received, I would be able to read myself into the brief much quicker and get to the nub of the issues and, hopefully, deliver value to CIE as a result. It is important that the people on the board have complementary skills and experience and that we do not all come from the same mould. In that way we will be able to get a much better result in terms of having an extremely effective working board.

Chairman

Your engagement time with the company?

Ms Vivienne Jupp

Since two weeks ago I have received feet lengths of paper and am trying to read myself into the job. There are monthly meetings of the CIE board and monthly meetings of the other boards. There are also monthly meetings of sub-committees within them, as there must be people who can particularly focus on safety, finance, audit and so forth. There are meetings with the senior management of the companies. Last week, for example, I spent a day meeting all the chief executive officers. I expect that will continue to happen. It is quite a demanding job in terms of the time commitment. I actually nearly got locked into the Heuston office at 7.30 p.m. last Wednesday.

Chairman

I appreciate that.

Ms Vivienne Jupp

All of us are prepared to give that time to it.

Mr. Kevin Bonner

I will be a member of both boards. There are usually ten meetings per year for each board so that means 20 meetings a year. Obviously, if one is involved in other committees and other business, one could add another ten or 15 days for that. That is the amount of time involved.

In regard to industrial relations in Dublin Bus, members are probably aware that I have had many dealings with Dublin Bus in the past, but not in such a benign way in terms of disputes and so forth. Thankfully, I believe that has changed. My first impression of the company, although I have only been there for a short time, is that it is a well-run company. There is a very good spirit in the company and the management involves the workforce in any decision that must be taken. There is good consultation in the company, and that is the way it must be. As Mr. Phil Gaffney said earlier, one cannot achieve change without involving the people who will do the work. That very important principle must be adopted at all times. I believe that if one puts the options before people, one will arrive at a solution that is acceptable to everybody. That must be the way in terms of involvement and consultation with the workforce.

Mr. Paul Mallee

I can bring the point about the cross-city services to the attention of the management team looking at the operational side of things and how they are best placed. I appreciate the issue you mentioned and the potential downsides. It is something that can be examined in the context of route alignment and so forth.

The real-time passenger information is a vital part of giving the customer confidence that the offering will show up on time and that they will have a service on which they can rely. It gives comfort to passengers that they will not be standing on the side of the road for an extraordinary length of time while they wait. I understand that it is close to completion, certainly as part of the overall redesign of the website. I understand a phone application is being developed as well. There are a number of initiatives and they are also being developed by Dublin Bus. They will be part of an integrated approach to this type of solution. I understand this is well under way.

On the time commitment, it is similar to that of my colleague, Mr. Bonner. There will be board meetings of Bus Éireann and also of the CIE Group. There will also be various sub-committee meetings, as well as regular interaction with the senior management team to ensure one keeps on top of the issues in preparation for meetings and so forth.

Mr. Phil Gaffney

Like my colleagues, I have no problem with making the necessary time commitment to help the company move along. In addition to the board meetings and committee meetings, interaction with the senior management is essential. In addition, it should not just be Dublin-centric. One must show one's face around the network and all parts of the railway.

The point on pricing is well made. A total of 50% of all the corporate fares are now from the web. The team in Iarnród Éireann is looking at better ways of pricing. I will discuss your comments with the team. Driverless trains in Iarnród Éireann is not part of my three year vision for the company and I do not believe it is appropriate. It is very appropriate for metros around the world, but not for Iarnród Éireann.

Chairman

Members, we need to conclude our meeting by 4.15 p.m. because there is a meeting of the select committee at 4.30 p.m. I will take brief questions from Deputies McLellan, Bannon, McLoughlin and O'Donovan, Senator Keane and Deputy Walsh.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

I thank the witnesses for their presentations and congratulate them on their new roles. They are bringing a great deal to the companies.

I am a public transport user. The integrated ticketing system has been a long time in development and will be very welcome. However, I hope it will be good value for money. My biggest problem with public transport is how routes are joined up. This is mainly due to bad planning and I do not know what can be done about it. However, do the witnesses have any plans to address this? Do they have any new plans to deliver or promote routes that are tourist friendly? Do they plan to cut routes that are not profitable, particularly in rural areas? Are the fees of the board chairpersons taxable or tax free?

Deputy James Bannon

Chairman, we are not on a high speed train this evening. I welcome the chairpersons of the-----

Chairman

We will finish at 4.15 p.m.

Deputy James Bannon

-----and thank them for giving us an insight both into their backgrounds and their vision for the future.

Deputy Coffey raised an important issue with regard to moving heavy freight back onto the rail tracks. Our biggest problem is the location of stations built by the British 150 years ago. These are mostly in the centres of towns and companies do not use the stations because of their locations. This issue must be examined before companies will use rail for freight purposes. Connectivity is critical to the success and development of our country and the midlands, where I come from. If I need to get to the home county of the Chairman, Cork, I need to take a train to Portlaoise or Dublin.

I refer to a new item of infrastructure, a central rail link. The national spatial strategy was published three or four years ago and it declared three towns in the midlands to be cities and it is important to link those three cities by rail. The Mullingar to Athlone rail line exists but is not in use. I would like to see us link the communities in Roscommon, Longford, Mullingar, Cavan, and Tullamore through a central line in the midlands. This would be a major item of infrastructure and it is important to set this project rolling.

A local rural bus service is vitally important for everyone, especially for older people. It is important that this is developed and enhanced. Following the closure of two teacher schools in the 1960s, a bus service was put in place but it has become expensive for the parents and guardians of children in recent years and we must examine the matter. A quality transport service will drive growth and we must promote it.

Chairman

I ask Deputy Bannon to conclude on that point.

Deputy James Bannon

We have serious overcrowding problems on the Sligo-Dublin line, particularly at Mullingar. I would appreciate if the problem can be addressed as soon as possible.

Chairman

I want to allow Deputy Bannon's Fine Gael colleagues to contribute.

Deputy James Bannon

I want to make one more point. We are aware we live in difficult economic times. Are there perks, bonuses and entitlements going with the positions of the witnesses?

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

I welcome the witnesses and I wish them well in their new positions. My colleague referred to freight, about which I have received a number of complaints. Perhaps this can be examined. A major effort was made with regard to the Coca-Cola depot in Ballina. More freight should be carried on rail rather than on roads. I have received a number of complaints about the western rail corridor. Last week, along with a delegation, I met the Minister on this point and the delegates were critical of the lack of engagement with the committee. As a Deputy from Sligo Leitrim North, it is vitally important that people who have worked extremely hard on positive ideas are recognised for their work. There should be more engagement with these people.

The timescale for the licence to change bus routes is causing concern for many people. Changes have been made in my town recently. It can take anything from 12 to 18 months to get a licence, which is intolerable and unacceptable in this day and age. I ask for clarification on this point.

Deputy Brian Walsh

I thank the witnesses for their presentation and apologise for being late. The witnesses are ably qualified and more than experienced enough to occupy their positions. I wish them every success on this point.

Chairman

Can Deputy Walsh turn off his telephone please?

Deputy Brian Walsh

The Minister has not been shy in outlining the strict financial curtailment and pointing out that budgets must be cut significantly. Have the witnesses examined how they will achieve savings or where services will be curtailed?

Chairman

We have a rule on telephones and Deputy Brian Walsh's telephone is interfering with the meeting.

Deputy Brian Walsh

It is not my telephone.

Chairman

It is your telephone. It is interfering with the entire meeting, not just the microphone of Deputy Brian Walsh.

Deputy Brian Walsh

My telephone is turned off. Have the witnesses identified areas that will be curtailed or discontinued and are they in a position to share the information with us? My colleague mentioned the western rail corridor. The first section of it has been very successful, with over 250,000 passengers in the past year. Can the witnesses expand on their intentions for the second stage of the western rail corridor between Galway and Claremorris? I noticed today that a private bus service has shared branding with Bus Éireann in the city centre in Dublin. Is this a new departure for Bus Éireann or a cost saving exercise?

Senator Cáit Keane

Forgive me for being late but I do not have the facility for bi-location. We might take it up on another day.

Chairman

With whom should I take it up?

Senator Cáit Keane

With the President of the European Parliament, to whom we were putting important questions. I welcome the witnesses. I have read the briefs of the witnesses and I am not questioning their credentials in any way. How many other boards are witnesses sitting on? Their time is valuable and their input and expertise is appreciated.

The real-time information relates to the times of buses arriving rather than the time it will take on the bus. We are trying to encourage tourists to visit the country. On London buses, one knows the stop that one is at but the tourists here are dependent on the person beside them to tell them where they are. In the good old days, the bus conductor used to call out each stop, such as Terenure or Templeogue. That could be done cheaply and it would help tourists.

Chairman

I want to allow Senator Keane's colleagues to contribute so I ask her to put questions rather than provide commentary.

Senator Cáit Keane

I am spokesperson on the environment and I refer to large buses running around empty. With regard to carbon footprint, what have the witnesses done and what are they doing? In The Sunday Business Post, I read about competition. The witnesses will be done out of a job because a French company has tendered for their positions in Dublin Bus.

Chairman

There will not be time to deal with Senator Keane's questions because this meeting will finish at 4.15 p.m. I ask her to conclude.

Senator Cáit Keane

This is important and rather than putting the questions into the ether, perhaps we can receive written responses if there is not time.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

I apologise for being late. I have one simple question. We have heard that integrated ticketing between three companies from one group has not worked in the lifetime of the Celtic tiger. What is the role of CIE as a parent company? Is there a need for an umbrella over three independent companies? Is there a cost saving to be made? When will CIE engage with the NRA and local authorities in a constructive manner, particularly in the delivery of other transport initiatives such as inter-urban roads? I refer to bonuses-----

Chairman

That question has been asked already.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

No, with respect, it has not.

Chairman

With respect-----

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

If the Chairman interrupted less-----

Chairman

With respect, the meeting will end at 4.15 p.m.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

That is fine, it is 4.10 p.m.

Chairman

I ask Deputy O'Donovan to ask his question briefly and we will move on.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

I will if the Chairman lets me.

Chairman

Move on.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

How many more times will I be interrupted?

How many people in the companies will be in receipt of a bonus in 2011? Deputy Walsh referred to services, especially those provided by Iarnród Éireann. There are trains running out of Limerick and other places to various destinations at times when nobody wants to travel on them. When people want to travel, the services are not available.

Chairman

I thank the Deputy. Before he came into the meeting, it was agreed we would conclude at 4.15 p.m. The witnesses will not have time to respond to all the questions. I suggest they communicate with the committee on any outstanding matters.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

On a point of order-----

Chairman

I am moving on to the Deputy's colleague.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

Can I not raise a point of order?

Chairman

No.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

The Chair has no respect for that. It is unbelievable.

Senator Catherine Noone

I apologise for my late arrival. I welcome the witnesses and congratulate them on their new appointments. Is there a timeframe for integrated ticketing? Has an umbrella group or body been set up to bring this into being?

Ms Vivienne Jupp

That question has been asked a couple of times. The lead agency with responsibility for the integration of integrated ticketing is the Railway Procurement Agency. It is not the responsibility of the individual CIE companies, although they sit on the steering committee.

In regard to bonuses, none of us is entitled to nor receives bonuses. We would not look for them. I do not work full-time in any organisation at the moment.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

So we do not know.

A Speaker

No bonuses have been paid in CIE since 2008.

Ms Vivienne Jupp

No. Is the Deputy talking about CIE?

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

I refer to Bus Éireann, Iarnród Éireann-----

Ms Vivienne Jupp

No bonus has been paid since 2008.

Deputy Walsh asked about budgets. When we hear from the Minister what the subvention will be, we will look at all the areas throughout the companies but we will ensure we continue to operate a good transport system for the people of Ireland.

Senator Cáit Keane

I raised four questions but did not get any answers.

Ms Vivienne Jupp

I am on the board of Grafton Employment Group, a charity and the UCD Business School.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

I asked about the role of CIE. Is there a need for CIE? Three independent companies-----

Chairman

The Deputy interrupted Senator Keane.

Senator Cáit Keane

I asked about the carbon footprint and how it is proposed to reduce it, the emissions and the large buses when"Go minic anseo, go tapaidh ansiúd"was very popular. It seems to be gone altogether. How will CIE deal with competition from abroad, about which I read in the Sunday newspapers yesterday?

Ms Vivienne Jupp

The privatisation of any services within the CIE group of companies is not a matter for us but for the Government and the NTA whose job it is to address that area.

Public transport is fundamentally an environmentally sound mode of transport rather than everybody using his or her car. CIE has undertaken many initiatives to strengthen its natural advantage in this area. With rising fuel costs, it is also looking at ways it can reduce its consumption. It is installing energy efficient heating systems in garages and so on. I will get the Senator more information on that but much is being done in that area.

Chairman

I thank Ms Jupp. I must conclude the meeting.

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

I asked three questions but did not get any answers.

Chairman

This will not be the only occasion we meet the four chairpersons.

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

I am not prepared to wait six months for an answer to these important questions.

Chairman

If there is any issue outstanding, I will ask the chairperson of the company to write directly to the Deputy. What matter is outstanding?

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

The first relates to the western rail corridor. It is being blanked. That is what I have been told by people on this committee for the past number of years. Obviously, I am not going to get an answer to that question today. I asked about the licences for the change in bus routes.

Chairman

Fine Gael has four or five members on this committee and it should sequence its questioners. There was an agreed time limit to this meeting. If there are priority issues a particular group wishes to raise, it should sequence its questioners because everybody cannot be accommodated in a two hour period.

Can the three questions Deputy McLoughlin asked be responded to briefly?

Ms Vivienne Jupp

Yes.

Mr. Phil Gaffney

On the question on freight, I think the Deputy missed my previous answer. The Ballina Coca Cola arrangement has been very successful and Iarnród Éireann is looking to build on the success of that particular model and at point-to-point train loads for freight. I am sure we will see that going forward.

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

That is exactly my point. Coca Cola and the people in Ballina, which is not in my constituency, promoted this. This should be done in other parts of the country. It is in Iarnród Éireann's interest. That is the route we should take.

Mr. Phil Gaffney

That is what I said.

Deputy James Bannon

One question was on the new infrastructure. The second question was overcrowding which is a health and safety issue on the Dublin to Sligo line.

Chairman

Eight members of the Fine Gael Party asked questions. Everybody who came in was accommodated.

Deputy James Bannon

We did not get the answers.

Chairman

I advise the Deputy to table a question to the Minister if there is anything outstanding.

Deputy James Bannon

What is the point of this committee?

Chairman

I will conclude. It was agreed at the start of the meeting that it would conclude at 4.15 p.m. A select committee is meeting at 4.30 p.m.

Deputy James Bannon

The Chairman should not hold two committee meetings on the same afternoon.

Chairman

I ask the Deputy to take it up with the Whips.

Deputy James Bannon

It is discourteous to our guests.

Chairman

We agreed this meeting would conclude at 4.15 p.m. and the Deputy voted for that. If he had put forward an alternative time, I would have listened to him but he did not do so.

Deputy James Bannon

It will be the last time the Chairman gets co-operation in regard to holding two meetings on the same afternoon.

Chairman

I thank the four chairpersons for their presentations. The committee would like to see them periodically, as has been requested. I wish the chairpersons well with their appointments and their companies success in the future.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.20 p.m. until 1.15 p.m. on Thursday, 14 July 2011.