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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 4 Oct 2011

Rental Deposit Protection Scheme: Discussion

We are 15 minutes behind schedule but whatever time is required to debate this issue we will give to it. With regard to the presentations, I ask the witnesses to remain within the time limit allowed to make their presentations. I will be strict on that to be fair to everyone. The clerk has allocated five minutes to each group to make their presentation. Within that timeframe I will then facilitate as many questions as possible. The witnesses will be doing themselves a favour by dealing with the questions and answers rather than concentrating on their presentations. We know the position from the discussion with the PRTB witnesses.

There are four presentations. We will have one from Threshold followed by a presentation from the Union of Students in Ireland. We will then hear from the Irish Property Owners Association and finally the Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers. Those presentations will be followed by an open discussion with the members. I call on the representative of Threshold to make its opening statement.

Mr. Bob Jordan

I thank the committee for inviting us here today to discuss an important issue to tenants. Threshold is a charity that was established in 1978 and we deal mostly with helping people in the private rented sector with housing problems, especially people at the lower end of the market.

I will deal with two issues, the first of which is the nature and extent of the problem of deposit retention, and the second of which is the resolution of it. We are fully in favour of establishing a deposit protection scheme. We are aware of the arguments against that, namely, that the issue of deposit retention is a minor problem, that a deposit protection scheme might be using a sledge hammer to crack a nut, that it will introduce more bureaucracy, and that our legislation here would not be able to absorb a deposit protection scheme. I will deal with those issues as I make my presentation.

The tenancy disputes in regard to deposits are not just confined to the Private Residential Tenancies Board. The PRTB replaced the courts, and as members are aware, many people do not bring their disputes to courts. Threshold has been established since 1978 and we deal with thousands of cases every year and, to be fair to the PRTB, we deal with them in a much different way. We are not a quasi-judicial body. Tenants telephone or e-mail us or get in contact in other ways. We telephone the landlord straight away and try to resolve the problem. In many cases that resolves it almost instantaneously while in other cases we have a much more prolonged and robust discussion. It is only in a small minority of cases that we bring them to the PRTB. The reason we do not really want to go to the PRTB on these issues is because the deposit is important to the tenant in moving on to the next tenancy. Our goal is to try to get it for them in time to help them move on. The reality is that to a tenant, a €1,000 deposit is four weeks social welfare payment. It represents the life savings of a person on low income and unless they get it back, they cannot move on. We have many cases of people who have had to use the homelessness service simply because they did not have the money to move on and they had no one from whom to borrow it.

Equally there are other tenants who are dealing with a landlord who has a culture of not returning deposits. They are wary, even before their tenancy ends, of whether they will get their deposit back and they contact us. Often that is after a period of remaining in a substandard property. It is a real issue for vulnerable tenants. There are other bodies that have been named, such as USI and citizen information centres. Even executive relocaters have contacted us and said that Ireland's business reputation is being damaged because executives at the higher end of the private rented market who come to Ireland cannot get their deposit back when returning to their home country. The problem spans across the private rented sector.

The PRTB and the Residential Tenancies Act have introduced some positive developments for the private rented sector. It is a purpose-built dispute resolution service for the private rented sector. The level of registration among landlords has certainly increased since the previous system and much important work has been done by the PRTB. When it comes to the issue of deposits which need to be returned to the tenant within a very short period, however, the average dispute time is eight months. That is meaningless to a tenant who needs the deposit returned quickly. Recently we have noticed cases coming to us where tenants have gone through the entire process of getting a determination order from the PRTB in regard to their deposit and those determination orders are not being enforced. The letter being issued to them states that the PRTB cannot afford to enforce them. Our tenants cannot afford to go to the Circuit Court and enforce their decisions. The issue is that the PRTB is becoming toothless on the issue of deposit retention. We think a deposit protection scheme will completely transform the position.

Much research has been done on this issue. Threshold did a research report on this in 1993, the Private Residential Tenancies Board has already done three research reports, but clearly the reason that it is so difficult to get a deposit returned to tenants is because it rests in landlords' pockets and not in the hands of an independent body who can return it very quickly if the landlord does not put any dibs on it or solves the issue disputed in the way we do, over the phone and very quickly.

The deposit protection scheme is not an idea we have come up with, it was introduced in other countries, as mentioned already. The UK Government does not have a track history of regulating landlords at all, but this is one thing it has done. It has been implemented in England and Wales and they are so happy with the scheme that it is being rolled out in Scotland and Northern Ireland, which are much more comparable to Ireland in terms of the number of tenants involved.

We can only have one deposit scheme. The registration process is very closely linked to deposits, as has been mentioned, and we believe that if there is a requirement for a deposit to be lodged with a third party, then in essence it brings landlords who are unregistered into the system and will net income for the Exchequer.

I wish to state Mr. Jordan is accompanied by Mr. Brendan Whelan. The presentation has been given to committee members along with the other representatives who will be speaking this evening.

Let me invite Mr. Gary Redmond, the president of the Union of Students in Ireland to address the committee.

Mr. Gary Redmond

On behalf of USI, I thank the committee for the opportunity to make a presentation today. At the outset, let me say that many students have a very good or excellent relationship with their landlord, but unfortunately this is not universal and students fall into difficulties year after year. We have seen the figures provided by the Private Residential Tenancies Board that 43% of their dispute resolution, or 900 cases, relate to deposit retention. What USI says is that this is only the tip of the iceberg. Let me give the committee some figures. In Ireland there are approximately 40 higher education institutions, each of which has a student union which year after year deals with disputes between tenants and landlords. One example is that in the year 2000 between the end of June and the end of October, a single student union dealt with almost 100 cases of deposit retention. Many of these cases never go on to the PRTB because as my colleagues in Threshold alluded to the student union is able to get the tenant and the landlord to resolve them informally. In some cases, unfortunately they are forced to go on to the PRTB but in most cases the students' union is able to intervene in an informal manner. The other issue which explains a reason that some cases never go on to the PRTB is that international students who are in Ireland for either a semester or for a year must return home very quickly. At a time when the education committee is discussing how to attract more international students to Ireland, our reputation is being damaged abroad when students are not able to get their deposit returned. When a student from India, China or Saudi Arabia returns home and tells his or her friends that he or she did not get any part of the deposit of €800 back, that spreads like wildfire around the education institutions and hampers our reputation abroad. Traditionally students pay a higher deposit than other tenants because landlords charge students on a per person basis. The average rent being paid per month by a student this year is €270 nationally or €366 in Dublin. If a landlord has four people in a house and collects a deposit of €366 per person, that adds up to a substantial sum very quickly. The problems are twofold. There are two scenarios where USI sees the major problems arising, first when the landlord refuses to get in contact after the end of tenancy and refuses to return the deposit. This is where a student or tenant moves and the landlord agrees to wire the money or write a cheque and then can simply not be contacted again. The second issue is where the landlord charges astronomical prices for average wear and tear. I came into contact with a student who had been charged €50 to replace every single glass in the kitchen. There were two glasses broken throughout the year, which is reasonable but to ask a student to pay €50 to replace them is not reasonable.

We heard earlier that the PRTB dispute resolution process can take about eight months to conclude. To a student that is an academic year and the student is relying on the deposit he or she put down in first year to roll over into the second and subsequent years. When the student does not have access to that deposit for at least eight months it causes a great deal of stress if he or she has to go elsewhere to find the money. In the USI submission, we outlined a case study where a student had to use a credit card to borrow at an astronomical interest rates to try to get a deposit together. USI would advocate for a custodial system and as my colleagues in Threshold have alluded to there is only room for one system. We do not have the scale to operate both an insurance based and a custodial system in Ireland. From discussions with my colleagues in the National Union of Students in the United Kingdom, they have seen a major reduction in the number of cases their student unions deal with. A survey compiled for a deposit protection service in the UK stated that 91% of tenants feel safer since the tenancies deposit legislation was introduced two years ago and only 9% said the legislation had made no difference at all.

We are joined this afternoon by Mr. Scott Ahearn from USI. I call Mr. Stephen Faughnan from the Irish Property Owners Association.

Mr. Stephen Faughnan

I thank the chairman and members for the invitation to discuss the residential deposit protection scheme. The Irish Property Owners Association, IPOA, was established in 1993 and as a national representative organisation of property owners in the private rented sector it was formed to promote professionalism, educate and advise property owners in the day to day running of the properties and in dealing with all aspects of legislation and compliance. We campaign and lobby for change and look for a fair balance in the treatment by Government, service companies and media and so on.

We are a non-profit making organisation, funded by landlord subscriptions. We hold information evenings throughout the country. We issue quarterly newsletters, monthly e-mails and produce an annual yearbook and diary. We also supply legal documents - for example rent books, tenancy agreements and termination notices and so on. Our offices are open to the public five days a week from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. and provide drop in facilities, phone contact is available throughout these hours and access to our computer website is 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

Let me give a brief history of the Irish Property Owners Association. In 1999 the IPOA accepted an invitation from the then Minister of State with responsibility for housing, Deputy Robert Molloy, to join with six other organisation to serve on a commission on the private rented sector. A package of measures was negotiated and while not all were palatable to all parties, they were agreed to and signed off as a reasonable compromise. The commission report produced in 2000 is the basis of the current legislation. The Residential Tenancies Bill 2003 was drafted and was guillotined without adequate debate and amended and signed into law as the Residential Tenancies Act 2004. The dispute resolution service of the PRTB was put on a statutory basis and landlord and tenant disputes were no longer allowed to go directly to the courts. The PRTB commenced processing disputes but there were teething problems and cases were taking too long to resolve and to hear. It was taking up to three years in certain cases. However the processing of cases has improved significantly but it is still too slow and it is unable to effect the necessary efficiency to handle urgent matters. The difficulty required an amendment to the Residential Tenancies Act.

The Residential Tenancies Act is a comprehensive and lengthy piece of legislation that was designed to incorporate a quick and easy dispute resolution process. There are currently 251,000 registered tenancies with 171,000 landlords housing 550,000 tenants. In 2010, 230,000 tenancies registered with the PRTB and 958 deposit retention cases were taken that year. This is less than half of 1% of all tenancies registered, in fact it is 0.04%. Of the 958 cases, 21%, landlords were allowed to keep the full deposit and in 37% of cases, landlords were allowed part of the deposit - in total in 58% of the cases, landlords were allowed to retain part or the whole of the deposit. This demonstrates a functioning dispute resolution process. In 0.04% of tenancies, there is a dispute, in 99.96% of tenancies no dispute arises. The vital question that needs to be answered is in how many cases were the PRTB unsuccessful in getting the deposit refunded to the tenant and how much money is involved. We need properly researched hard statistical evidence. This is an emotive issue, but a decision needs to be made in a rational manner based on actual facts and figures. In 99.96% of cases, deposits are refunded and only 0.04% of cases are adjudicated upon. How many of these cases which have been settled in favour of tenants are not paid?. This information is critical to make an informed decision. In the past some landlords, as we know, withheld deposits unfairly and now all withholding must be justified, and rightly so. For a number of years we have inserted in our rent books a deposit refund form that is to be used by a landlord, in conjunction with a tenant, to outline what deposit is held, what deposit is being paid back, why it is being held, the amount held and both parties sign it. The tenant gets the original document and that outlines exactly where he stands with his deposit. He can take that to the board to justify any grievance. In 2010 the PRTB was requested to enforce 241 deposit cases, 0.01% of all registered tenancies. The figures do not show if it was a landlord or tenant who made the request.

Time is of the essence in dealing with deposit refunds. While 99.96% of deposit refunds are dealt with in a prompt manner, efficiency is required in the 0.04% of disputes that arise. The time taken to process these cases must decrease so tenants can receive their deposits back in a timely manner. New Zealand resolved mediation cases in seven business days and tribunal hearings in 19 business days. In England and Wales, cases were resolved in six to eight weeks and that is not on. To this end, the PRTB needs the Residential Tenancies Act to be amended urgently to expedite the process, thereby reducing the time and cost of prolonged hearings. It must also be noted that cases taken for disputes can cost €8,000 to €9,000 in tribunal levies for a deposit of €400. This is not a cost efficient situation and amendments to the Act could reduce this significantly.

We need to move on to the important points.

Mr. Stephen Faughnan

They are all important.

The most important points should be covered because while I will invite Mr. Faughnan back in, I want to give everyone the same time.

Mr. Stephen Faughnan

I just wanted to mention a survey that was carried out by the Labour Party in 2001, where 91% of tenants rated their landlords as very good. Millward Brown carried out a survey on behalf of the Irish Property Owners Association that is available to the committee and the PRTB commissioned a report that showed that 94% of students in private rented accommodation have good relations with their landlords.

Where deposit protection schemes exist in England, Wales and New Zealand, there was no comprehensive legislation already in place to deal with deposit retention. New Zealand has a dispute rate of 12% and it costs $32 million to administer to resolve mediation cases within seven days and 19 business days for tribunal hearings. England and Wales had no legislation to deal with disputes prior to the introduction of a deposit protection scheme in 2007. In 2009, 73% of landlords in England and Wales protected deposits, with 27% not protected in spite of legislation. Some landlords stopped taking deposits, instead asking for three months rent in advance. Scotland is considering legislation based on the Residential Tenancies Act.

Any type of deposit protection scheme will cost money to set up and run and will also involve time and energy in the dissemination of information and filling in forms. Running rental properties is time consuming for landlords but it is not allowable as an expense against income. Like all sectors in society, there is always a proportion who will work outside the law. Landlords will opt out of the system and not secure the deposits, as is the case in England and Wales. The property owners who have always strived to operate in a professional manner will continue to and will end up with additional costs from bureaucracy, while the PRTB will still have to deal with these cases where the deposit is not protected.

The Residential Tenancies Act requires immediate attention to facilitate speedier dispute resolution. In-house adjudicators and mediators must be on the staff of the board. There is no problem with 99.96% of deposits. Statistics are required to show how many determination orders have not been satisfied on completion of the dispute resolution service and the amounts thereto. The 241 cases where enforcement was requested amount to 0.01%, meaning that in 99.99 % of registered tenancies deposits are refunded.

It is not necessary to introduce a deposit protection scheme in Ireland. It would be bureaucratic and cumbersome for 0.1% of cases outstanding. Landlords require a rent protection scheme as hundreds of thousands of euro have been lost through cases that have gone to the PRTB where tenants are not paying rent. I have included a non-exhaustive list of determination orders that have never been satisfied. In 35 cases, €213, 690 is outstanding, more than €6,100 per case. If that is to be borne out by the number of cases for rental properties, we are talking about €4 million due to landlords.

I now call Mr. Fintan McNamara from the Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers.

Mr. Fintan McNamara

I thank the committee for the invitation to address it. Although some of the points have been made already, I will try to reinforce some of the arguments made from the point of view of the IPAV.

IPAV is the representative body for auctioneers and estate agents nationwide and now exclusively represents estate agents and letting agents. We were formed in 1971 and cover 500 member firms that in a normal market would employ approximately 3,000 people in property-related activities, including valuation, sales, lettings and property management. The institute is a self-regulating body and members must operate to a prescribed code of conduct. IPAV's disciplinary committee also has two independent, external members. The provision of high quality education courses, including continuous professional development for existing members, is a central part of IPAV's work and we regularly introduce courses for letting agencies on the Residential Tenancies Act and renting matters.

I passed out a script but I do not propose to read it because the committee already has many of the figures. I was part of the rented housing commission when it was set up. When it recommended the establishment of the PRTB, it was estimated that up to 10% of tenancies would present on an annual basis. Eight years later, less than 1% of tenancies have presented for dispute resolution. That was not anticipated.

In the rental market, deposit retention goes with the territory. Tenants do damage and landlords sometimes in the belief they have been wronged withhold deposits wrongfully. The difficulty is education. There must be greater awareness among landlords that the deposit can only be retained in the instance of serious damage being done, that ordinary wear and tear does not justify withholding the deposit.

In the majority of cases, adjudicators in tribunals have found the landlord was justified in withholding part of or the entire deposit. That is what the PRTB was set up for, to resolve these matters. We are now considering an extra layer of bureaucracy and in our opinion that is going down the wrong road. The private rented sector in Ireland is the most regulated in Europe. Since the 1990s there has been a raft of regulations, including standards regulation, and more than 100,000 inspections of private rented accommodation have taken place. Successive surveys attest to the fact that 90% of tenancies are trouble-free. There is a good relationship between landlords and tenants, including a survey recently carried out by the PRTB.

The suggestion that rental deposits should forwarded to the PRTB is disproportionate, as Threshold has already stated, and it will give rise to expensive, unnecessary bureaucracy. Essentially it is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It has been noted that the British scheme operates free of charge for landlords or tenants and there is no expensive compulsory registration of landlords and tenancies. We have 171,000 registered landlords, although the figure has shot up in the last year. In Britain, only 250,000 landlords have signed up to the custodial deposit scheme, which has been in operation for four years from a possible 2 million landlords. The custodial deposit scheme, which was supposed to be self-financing, has cost the English taxpayer £12 million to date. Substantial numbers of landlords are not complying. Some use insurance-based schemes that cost them money but we have regular contact with the Association of Residential Letting Agents in Britain and the fact is that compliance has not been widespread.

We have had massive compliance with registration in Ireland and it has been a success from the point of view of the Government and the PRTB. Under the last registration system, only 17,000 landlords registered 29,000 units. There are still problems and there are landlords who are capricious and who withhold deposits wrongfully. Something has to be done about them. This is going too far. There will be an extra burden on the rented sector which will disincentivise investment and the results will not be justified.

Despite the existence of a custodial deposit scheme in the UK there is no indication that the level of disputes arising from deposit retention is any less frequent than Ireland. It goes with the territory. Deposit retention schemes only exist in a very small number of jurisdictions, mainly Anglophile countries. Improvements need to be made. Substantial fines should be imposed on landlords who retain deposits. The word would get around very quickly. There has been a huge increase in the number of applications in regard to rent arrears. It is very difficult to enforce termination orders on tenants who have left or gone into the ether. Landlords are different. They have the property. They are sitting ducks and can eventually be brought to book. There needs to be greater educational awareness and higher fines.

I thank Mr McNamara. We will open the discussion to the floor.

I welcome the delegates. The presentations were very interesting. In my last contribution I said I know there are good landlords. I am very interested in what was said about rent books. It is a good idea. A standing order is set up between landlord and tenant. I do not know how rent books work when the standing order is in place.

On a point of information, by law one is required to have a rent book. It is not a novel idea.

I do not know if the law applies to students. The Chairman is correct.

I want to discuss international students. There is a particularly worrying situation regarding deposits not being returned. Great efforts have been made by the current and previous Ministers for Education and Skills to try to promote this country as a centre of excellence for international students. There is student accommodation in many universities but there are still security issues for international students which have to be followed up by the authorities.

Personally and anecdotally I know it is difficult for students to get accommodation. If landlords were being honest the last people they would rent a house to are students. They would look at other options. International students might be the first option or female students may be ahead of male students. There is a hierarchy which I will not go into but it is a difficult situation.

Losing a deposit is one thing. If one has to get agents to clean a house one has to spend more money. It is a major problem. I hope these issues can be examined. Every year there seems to be problems with so-called rag week.

I am not going discuss it unless it is put in a deposit context.

I want to make this point.

Put it in a deposit context.

People lose deposits because of rag week, often because of visiting rather than permanent students. What does the USI think of that? There is a fine line between the good work it does in terms of raising money during rag week and the trouble that ensues.

Unless the Deputy is discussing deposits I will overrule him. We are not discussing rag week.

People lose deposits.

It takes place at the beginning of the year rather than at the end. Deposits are usually lost at the end of the year. As the Deputy did not have a specific question I will move on to Deputy Murphy.

I have a question about international students.

I will come back to that.

Mr. McNamara referred to fines. I am open to whatever will resolve this issue. What does he consider to be appropriate fines that would change the culture? There is no doubt that with some landlords there is a culture of keeping deposits. People pay deposits to landlords two years before the tenancy turns over. They know there will be a gap before the property is rented again. Normal wear and tear will be addressed and at that point people are aware the gap will be costly. I have come across a significant number of people, even landlords who have a good relationship with their tenants, who have disputes over deposits. Sometimes it is sorted out before ever going any further.

In terms of the information available, the delegation referred to the percentage of tenancies that went to dispute. One needs to examine the number of tenancies that turn over rather than the number of rental properties because one would not be comparing the appropriate figures. Are there data sets on the number of tenancies that turn over? Such disputes are dealt with through the PRTB or Threshold.

Mr. Fintan McNamara

When the commission made its deliberations it examined the pattern overseas, in particular New Zealand and Australia where there were deposit retention schemes. In 2000 the idea that we would have a deposit retention scheme was rejected. At that time between 10,000 and 20,000 disputes arose in New Zealand.

There are 250,000 tenancies registered here and it was expected we would have problems with about 10% of them. It is hard to quantify in any given year how many tenancies will be in a unit. A survey some years ago found that approximately 77% of tenants last for about a year. That is not a hard and fast rule. The numbers with problems are minuscule in comparison to the number of tenancies. Successive surveys have pointed out that it is a happier place than people think.

I have heard stories about some capricious landlords wilfully withholding deposits without reason. Some are in financial trouble or trying to pay mortgages and see deposits as an easy way out. There has to be a strong education process.

A clear example of what justifies the retention of a deposit is outlined on mydeposit.co.uk. There is a distinction between wilful damage and ordinary wear and tear, and landlords have to be made aware of that. Some may feel they are above the process but they own properties. The pattern in the UK has been that a fine of three times the size of the deposit withheld is imposed. I am not making any recommendations but the issue needs to be closely examined. A delegate said we have to have balance in penalties and they cannot be excessively punitive. They must be sufficiently punitive to deter people from withholding deposits and giving the industry a bad name.

Mr. Fintan McNamara: When the commission made its deliberations it examined the pattern overseas, particularly New Zealand and Australia where there were deposit retention schemes

Mr. Faughnan and Mr. Jordan might respond to Deputy Murphy's questions. The percentage of disputes is related to the turnover of tenancies, not the number of registered tenancies in any given year. Equating the 0.5% of cases dealing with deposit disputes compared to the number of registered tenancies is distorting the figures because it only arises on a roll-over basis. That is the point made by Deputy Murphy.

Mr. Gary Redmond

While the USI would welcome increased fines and repercussions for landlords who unlawfully withhold deposits increased fines would be a reactive measure. We need to have prevention. I was always told that prevention is better than cure. The introduction of a deposit protection scheme would prevent the problem arising, thus there would be no need to increase fines for landlords. This is a huge issue in educational terms in respect of first year students in particular who, having accepted their CAO offers, are moving from home for the first time and expect to start college quickly thereafter. Every year, the Union of Students in Ireland, USI, produces an accommodation guide which tries to address some of these issues. Unfortunately, some landlords see first year and international students as an easy target often because they are not aware of their rights or even the existence of the Private Residential Tenancies Board, PRTB. This issue needs to be addressed. While the USI does its bit, the back-up of the PRTB is needed, as is the assistance of the colleges in educating first year and international students in particular about this problem.

Mr. Stephen Faughnan

First year students should be contacted by their students union and educated about private rented accommodation. This is often the first time these students have lived away from home and they should be educated about rented accommodation issues. The move this year to do this is to be welcomed. A Deputy mentioned that students are not popular with landlords. They are popular. They are our customers. We deal with them in the same way as we deal with any other form of society. We do not discriminate. Students may have different agendas and a different culture but we do deal with them. We do not take extra deposits from them. Students are not in any way snubbed by landlords supplying rented accommodation.

Mr. Bob Jordan

An increase in fines for landlords does not solve the problem for tenants, which is to get their deposit back on time. We believe a system of fines is totally unworkable. How does one prove a landlord deliberately withheld a deposit from a tenant? It is almost impossible to prove unless it has been written down or said directly to a person. The fines process is unworkable and comes at the end of the process and does not solve the problem for tenants.

The system of fines attached to the UK deposit protection scheme is in respect of a person not lodging a deposit with the scheme. The person is fined three times the deposit amount for not having lodged the money with the scheme and not because a deposit was not returned. That is a fundamental change. On the issue of tenancy turnover, we do not know the answer to that. The PRTB has that data. It could probably be assumed that there are at least a couple of hundred turnovers per day based on PRTB registration figures. It is a little like saying that repossession of a couple of hundred homes every year is not a big issue in terms of the number of mortgages in the country. That is to look at the problem in the wrong way. This is about the impact on tenants and their ability to continue in their housing.

Mr. Faughnan stated that the majority of findings in respect of disputes around deposits were in favour of the landlord. The figures from the PRTB show that the opposite was the case in 79% of cases in that 42% of deposits were ordered to be returned in full and 37% were ordered to refunded in part. I am curious about the discrepancy between both sets of figures.

I believe we need to introduce a deposit protection scheme. Who do the delegations present believe should operate this scheme? Should it be a third party and where do the local authorities and PRTB fit into this?

There are two parties who believe that the scheme should not be introduced and the Deputy's question is a little unfair to them.

I will offer them an opportunity to outline what would be the best alternative to the scheme. I ask Mr. Whelan to respond first to Deputy Stanley's question.

Mr. Brendan Whelan

We would be strongly of the view that it should be operated by a third party. Some of the difficulties mentioned earlier by Ms Caulfield in respect of staffing levels are difficult to deal with, which is part of being in the public service, and understandably so. We have spent a great deal of time studying the operation in the UK and are convinced that a cost-effective operation could be implemented in Ireland. This would remove from the public service all the difficulties of running it.

Mr. Stephen Faughnan

Deputy Stanley asked from where we got the figures of 21% in respect of landlords returning a deposit in full and 37% returning a deposit in part. We quoted in that respect from the PRTB.

Mr. Fintan McNamara

It has been stated that the UK deposit scheme is cost effective; it is not. UK taxpayers have already paid £12 million sterling into the scheme, which is only the start. How much more might they have to put in if every landlord were involved?

We recognise withholding of deposits is a problem. We do not in any way condone it. It is hard on students, in particular overseas students, who experience this. Landlords must be made aware, be it through the media or otherwise, that they cannot withhold deposits wilfully and that in doing so they are doing themselves harm and giving their profession a bad name. A system of fines should be introduced, which would be proportionate and, if necessary, could be increased. At the end of the day, it is far easier to bring landlords to book than it is to bring tenants to book. There has been mention of the scheme being operated by a third agency. The Government cannot afford to set up another quango. Who will have to pay for it? The landlord will. There are already a raft of charges applied in the rented sector, including the €200 levy, the universal household charge, reduction in mortgage interest relief and so on. The imposition of further charges will mean it will no longer be worthwhile for landlords to rent their properties. This will result in harm to tenants.

It has been stated that people are unable to get accommodation. We have the best quality accommodation than ever before in our history. Some 20 years ago, only 21,000 rented units of accommodation were available. There are currently 200,000 units available, all of which are good quality new stock which have been constructed under various schemes, some of which, of course, went too far. We can overreach ourselves. We should provide that landlords must only register every four years as it is not necessary to register every tenancy. One could often have four tenancies within a year and is required to register all of them. The percentage of disputes as compared with the turnover in tenancies means there are fewer tenancies. We need a more simplified registration system to which landlords must sign up every four years for a small fee, which would assist in financing the PRTB and would free up staff to deal with the board's core function of dispute resolution. That would be my solution to the problem.

Mr. Gary Redmond

The USI believes that the PRTB should operate any new deposit protection scheme. We would be concerned that the introduction of a third party or other agency would result in another layer of bureaucracy. Also, as well as having to register their properties, landlords would be expected to give the deposit to someone else. The USI believes that given the level of tenancy agreements and deposits in Ireland, there is no reason the deposit protection scheme could not be introduced in a cost-effective manner. The PRTB estimates, based on the figures previously produced by it and based on the lowest projection of interest it had, it could raise approximately €4 million per annum. With €3 million or €4 million per annum, it should be possible to operate such a scheme.

Mr. Brendan Whelan

I would like to clarify a point. The process of registration and lodging the deposit should be integrated from the landlord's point of view so that even if a third party is to operate the new scheme, the landlord will not see any difference. We must have an integrated system to make this happen.

It was stated that the UK scheme is costing the UK Government money. That is true. However, what is interesting is why that is the case, namely, the UK took a decision not to bring existing tenancies into the fund from day one and as such they had to build the fund from nothing. Needless to say, it would have been difficult in the first few years for income to exceed costs. They recognise that was a mistake and in implementing it in Scotland they are now getting existing tenancies to register. In Ireland, we would ask for that to be done between three and six months, which would address the issue faced by the UK.

I welcome the groups. Given what we have heard from the Irish Property Owners Association, IPOA, and the Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers, IPAV, neither organisation condones bad practice by landlords. Of the total number of landlords in Ireland, how many does each organisation represent? I have received a wry smile for my first question. Perhaps it has an historical factor.

What is the problem with a third party holding a deposit? The situation is simple. People hand over money for property they rent in case they do it damage or do not hand it back in a proper fashion after their tenancy concludes. Currently, the property's owner holds the money. The suggestion is that a third party holds the money. I see no problem. Bureaucracy, cost and the other factors that always arise whenever we try to regulate something have been mentioned, but agreeing to this proposal would create no fundamental difficulty. If the organisations' members were regulated and in compliance with all the requirements placed on them, why would they have a problem with agreeing to hand over the money? I will allow Mr. McNamara to respond after I make my points. When the Chairman stops me, I must stop, but Mr. McNamara will have an opportunity to contribute again.

That is for sure.

Much play has been made of the fact that most landlords are good. This is true. Some of the landlords in my town could not be better at their jobs irrespective of whether they were members of the organisations. All issues arising in their rented houses are addressed. Regardless of whether the number of bad landlords is ten or 100, why do the organisations have a problem with the introduction of a third party to hold the money? I cannot get my head around it.

Irrespective of students' membership of the Union of Students in Ireland, USI, how much awareness do they have of the system? Are students more vulnerable to their deposit not being returned than people who, for example, rent accommodation after moving to a new town or city to take up a contract for a year or two?

I presume the IPOA and the IPAV have member registries and set criteria to which landlords must agree. If it comes to the organisations' attention that landlords are not registering all or any of their properties, are the latter struck off the membership lists or asked to remove themselves from the organisations? This is a fundamental question.

There is a gap between local authorities and the Private Residential Tenancies Board, PRTB. Properties in respect of which rent allowance is being paid should be required to register automatically, but this is not the case. We are paying rent allowance to landlords who are not registered with the PRTB. This is a major issue that the committee might be able to discuss at another time.

Mr. Stephen Faughnan

The Senator asked how representative we are of landlords. We represent all landlords. Legislation regarding landlords puts them under our ambit. We have a membership of 1,500 or 1,600 paying landlords to fund us.

Did Mr. Faughnan say 1,500?

Mr. Stephen Faughnan

We have 1,500 to 2,000 to 2,500.

Mr. Stephen Faughnan

I apologise. It is the number of landlords paying membership fees to fund our organisation, but we deal with the legislation on all landlords. Everything we deal with affects all landlords, not just our members.

The Senator asked about third party deposits. Some 99.99% of tenants are dealt with in a mannerly and upright way. Bad landlords comprise a minority. We have outlined our opinion, that is, the PRTB should be the functioning body to make determinations on deposits within seven days. If a landlord holds back a deposit from a tenant, the latter can access a mediation process within seven days and receive a judgment. If the landlord or tenant appealed, a further seven days would be provided. The PRTB could do this were the legislation in place. This is the only way to handle deposits without creating more bureaucracy. We object to anything more. There is enough bureaucracy. We have had it up to here with it. It does not work, as the committee has been shown. We would have no problem with the PRTB deciding on a matter within seven days, as it could be the body to deal with matters like this were a small amendment made to the legislation.

We have a bigger problem that we cannot discuss in detail, namely, the amount of money due to landlords. This is another issue that should be dealt with when the question of deposits is addressed. I have outlined the situation to the Department, various Ministers and the PRTB. Using the PRTB is the way to handle this matter. It has the necessary supporting laws and personnel. If the PRTB appoints one or two mediators to handle deposit matters only, it would save vast sums of money. On average, a tenancy tribunal costs €8,000 or €9,000. The seven-day process would not.

A tenant should get his or her money back, as that money belongs to him or her at all times. There are and always have been errant landlords, but they are coming to boot because the PRTB is catching up with them. We welcome this. Seven days is an adequate time for any deposit dispute to be resolved.

My other question was on members of the organisations who do not register their properties.

Mr. Stephen Faughnan

We do not condone that. We educate people-----

Does the IPOA strike them off its register?

Mr. Stephen Faughnan

We do not have that rule, but we would not welcome them. Anyone who joins our organisation must sign a document stating that he or she is in compliance with all legislation. We do not have a disciplinary committee, although we may need to introduce one. Such landlords are not welcome if they are not performing.

Mr. Brendan Whelan

We need to nail this idea that it is a minor problem. The data from Threshold and the USI and the PRTB's figures suggest this is only the tip of the iceberg. The problem is more extensive than alleged.

The warning about additional bureaucracy is a red herring. One must register a tenancy anyway. Adding the deposit would be a minor piece of work.

When the deposit is withheld, only one party is at a disadvantage, and that is the tenant who needs it. He or she will not get part or all of it back until the situation is resolved, but it takes too long to resolve matters. Nine months is unacceptable. Even three to six months would be unacceptable. We agree it should be done in days or weeks. The question I would pose to Mr. Faughnan and Mr. McNamara is why would any reputable landlord be against a deposit protection system if it was free, given that he or she must register the tenancy anyway.

When they next speak, they might respond, but I will not invite them to do so for a while. Mr. McNamara has indicated he wishes to respond.

Mr. Fintan McNamara

I cannot see how the scheme could be free, given the constraints placed on the PRTB. It would need more staff to police the deposit scheme. It would be great if it was free, but it is largely unnecessary. Where there is a deposit custodial scheme in other jurisdictions, and there are a few such cases, there is no overarching housing court like the PRTB. In principle, we have no objection to a dispute resolution service, but too many of them or unnecessary bureaucracy would be a mistake.

The Senator asked about our members and disciplinary procedures. According to the PRTB's statistics, 171,000 landlords are registered with it. I estimate that there are 20,000 to 30,000 more landlords outside the process because they are exempt, for example, landlords on the rent-a-room scheme or those who provide family members with rented accommodation. There are probably 190,000 landlords in Ireland, perhaps even more.

We do not represent landlords, as we are not a landlord association. There are other services for landlords such as www.irishlandlord.com. We represent letting agents, many of whom are estate agents who are landlords but are also working for other landlords providing professional services. There would be up to 10,000 such investors and landlords with whom our members would deal routinely, working on their behalf. As such we would not be represented on it but we would have an informed view of the rental sector given that many of our members have also been PRTB adjudicators and have vast experience in it.

On the issue of members who do not comply with the legislation, we have a disciplinary committee. If we receive complaints about members in regard to registration or anything else, of course it would be acted upon.

The question I asked was how many members the organisation represents.

Mr. Brendan Whelan

I gave the figures at the very beginning. It was about 500 member firms. About 3,000 in an ordinary market would be working off that.

Mr. Scott Ahearn

I concur with Senator Landy in regard to the system. When a landlord is registering with the PRTB and handing the €90 over, the deposit can go in accordance with that at the same time. It is a very simple system in how it can be implemented. It is important to remember that the deposit is not a landlord's money. The issue is obviously in terms of the landlord not wanting to hand this money away. In regard to the question on the PRTB, from my experience of having been a welfare officer for two years in University College Dublin and also being in USI now, there is a low awareness of the PRTB and the service it provides. There is an improvement this year as outlined in its own promotion but more needs to be done. I differ with some of my colleagues in terms of education. It is important but it is not the answer.

The deposit protection scheme in itself removes the problem and is a prevention rather than a reaction, which is what members of the committee have said. The Deputy made a good point. This issue has been going on for 20 years and has been spoken about in terms of student focus. The USI, in conjunction with the PRTB, prepared a booklet for our members. We represent approximately 200,000 students to whom we distributed rent books which contained a petition asking if students would support the introduction of a deposit protection scheme. We have about 3,000 out of 5,000 of those petitions with us to show to members of the committee. They range from colleges in Tralee to Limerick IT, Galway-Mayo Institute of Technology, Letterkenny IT and the Dublin area. There is grassroots support in terms of acknowledging the issue at hand. There appear to be stumbling blocks from other parties regarding this issue.

Will the witness please address Senator Landy's questions on the registration of landlords, third party deposits and so on? There are six members in the room who could make a Second Stage speech.

Mr. Scott Ahearn

I apologise. Mr. Gary Redmond will deal with section 50.

Mr. Gary Redmond

Senator Landy asked if we thought students were more susceptible to having their deposit retained. International students and first year students are the main issue. Many students take advice - once bitten, twice shy - and certainly make sure to get their deposit back the second time. The other issue we have not spoken about, which falls outside the PRTB, is the purpose-built student accommodation set-up under the tax incentive scheme, section 50. So far this summer a number of the management companies which operate them have gone into liquidation. That means that all the students who stayed in that purpose-built student accommodation last year lost all their deposits, as did any student who paid a deposit for the forthcoming year, because it was taken into the liquidation process. If those students are lucky, they may get 10 cent for every euro they are owed. During the summer we saw that happen twice in Sligo. Some landlords see students as an easy target, especially 17 and 18 year olds living away from home for the first time. That is an issue we need to address and the deposit protection scheme would go a long way towards it.

Ms Margaret McCormick

A deposit protection scheme is not necessary. Last year the PRTB was asked to deal with 241 cases. We are dealing with a small number of cases. Those cases should have been enforced against whoever lost the cases. It does not necessarily mean a landlord lost the case. It could be either side. For a deposit retention case-----

Does Ms McCormick recognise-----

Ms Margaret McCormick

A tenant may take a deposit case but a landlord would then put forward the list of reasons. Often one will find there is more damage done than the deposit covers. In that case, it could be that more than the deposit is owed to the landlord. We do not know the breakdown in those 241 cases. We need to know that breakdown and we need to know how much money is concerned. While it is a small proportion, it is not acceptable that they have to be enforced. The legislation is in place in the form of the Residential Tenancies Act. If there is a deposit dispute, and there are a number of them, we need to process each case in a timely manner. The faster we process these cases, the quicker the deposits can be refunded. In most cases the deposits are refunded. At the end of the day we are dealing with 241 cases in 2010. That is 241 cases out of the 230,000 tenancies registered in that year. It may be a high proportion within the PRTB in that 43% of cases concern deposit retention, but there will always be issues around deposits and different people will have different ideas. We have a scheme to go forward and argue it, but at the end of the argument we need to ensure the payment is made back to the person to whom it should be made. We have the legislation to do that and it can be enforced through the PRTB. What is needed is a speedier dispute resolution service, the Residential Tenancies Act to be amended to deal with that and cases to be enforced in order that the deposit is paid to whichever party should get it.

I call Senator Cáit Keane.

No. A Fine Gael member has not addressed the committee yet.

On the issue of the deposit protection scheme, many members have mentioned the cost of administration. This has reduced considerably in the technological age. I presume all registrations are online. With the advent of cloud computing, it is easy to speak from one agency to another. It is up to us as a committee to ensure the facility of cloud computing is used by all the agencies to put a scheme in place. This is not rocket science given that all the organisations are online and it is not hidden information, whether it is with local authorities and the rent allowance where some 34% of people are registered but still not connected. Our first step is to ascertain who is not talking to whom.

With regard to the deposit protection schemes in England, Mr. Bob Jordan said they are no good for the tenant. Only three schemes are acceptable in England, two of which are insurance-based. Those two schemes protect the tenant so there is no argument about that. If the landlord does not pay back, the insurance scheme comes into play. Those are the schemes that cost money to the landlord. The other schemes for ordinary registration do not cost money. Therefore we must discuss what type of scheme we want or whether we want a scheme.

I thank the representatives for appearing before the committee. We are educated by them to ensure the recommendations that go forward from this committee are inclusive of all the views that come forward. Naturally we have to make up our mind at the end of the day. I think it was Mr. Fintan McNamara and a few others who said education is important. All students need further education. Everybody has an iPhone or a camera phone and should be educated to take a picture of the property before and after, take an inventory and have proof of what is provided. That is a recommendation that would not cost anything except to take photographs on the iPhone.

I thank the witnesses for attending.

Was it Mandy Rice Davies who said during the Profumo affair, "Well, he would, wouldn't he?" To a certain degree, different groups would take up a different position. However, if we begin from the premise that the deposit is the tenant's money, and we all agree that it is the tenant's money until there is a conflict about the condition of the property, then the question is what should happens to it. I am open to correction, but I understand there is no regulation governing what a landlord may do with the deposit. He or she can put it in a credit union, a bank or take me out to dinner tonight. When a tenancy comes to an end, there is no regulation that the landlord must have the total deposit, let us say €850 on hand. One could have a situation where a landlord who has 20 to 30 tenants, which would not be unusual, has 20 to 30 sums of €850 on account. That is a substantial sum and is working at about three years rent on any one of their properties.

Having listened to the submissions from IPOA and the IAVI this afternoon, one might ask what is the beef, as less than 0.5% of tenancies affected by the failure to return the deposit. The argument from the other side is why should we take a sledge-hammer to break open a peanut? I put this question to the Union of Students in Ireland and Threshold. I pose the same question to the IPOA and IAVI, if this is such a small problem, why the beef with their organisations? Most landlords are compliant, the money belongs to the tenant, so why not get the scheme up and going because it will have no impact on the majority?

With respect to Mr. Stephen Faughnanwith whom I have had enlightening discussions over the years on how the private residential sector operates and fills a necessary gap in the provision of residential housing, both the IPOA and the IAVI play an important role in society. Let me put the following question to Mr. McNamara. If a holding account was put in place for deposits at €850 per tenant, the yield from 220,000 tenants would be in the region of €170 million, but let me round the figure down to €150 million. There are obviously savings from the rent supplements which will be under the control of local authorities and will tie into the registration and inspection process. I understand as a minimum there is €15 million saving to the Exchequer by setting up the notional bond, as Mr. McNamara indicated earlier this afternoon. The rental deposit scheme is in the programme for Government, so it is unlikely it will be withdrawn, in spite of Senator Keane's over estimating the power of the Chairman of this committee over Government policy. I do not think we will be changing Government policy this afternoon.

I said on the type.

We might have an input but I do not think we will change the programme for Government here this afternoon. The programme for Government states that a rental deposit scheme will happen. The PRTB have been asked for its views on it but ultimately, it will not matter what are its views, the scheme will be rolled out. The question is whether the PRTB will be part of the scheme or will somebody else be doing it. If I were a landlord in that situation, I would be looking at an account with €150 million, acknowledging that on occasions there are rogue tenants who are in arrears with rent and who damage properties in excess of the deposit sum of €850. I know this for a fact. It is on record that on occasions that damage costing up to several thousands could be done to a property. Why not look at the interest that €100 million would generate as a means of paying for a bond or insurance, where one would not get the cost of the damage to the property, but twice or three times the deposit from the account and view the deposit retention scheme as a means of landlords getting more money back than just the deposit. It would also provide some degree of flexibility. If I was a landlord in the current circumstances, I would consider how the deposit scheme might benefit me, the organisation and the members I represent. These are the questions I put to the witnesses. I will invite the Union of Students in Ireland to respond first.

Mr. Gary Redmond

The premise that the retained deposits account for less than 0.5% is a myth. Both Threshold and USI can produce both anecdotal and research based evidence that we handle far more than that every year on an informal basis. There are also those who do not go down the PRTB route. Waiting eight months to get a deposit returned is not acceptable. We made the point today that even waiting six months for the return of a deposit is not acceptable. This is not using a sledge-hammer to crack a peanut. We do not know the size of the nut and how big a hammer we need. As I said earlier, a deposit protection scheme would be a preventive solution to this problem. We will not have to come before the committee again in two or three years and discuss the same issues again. There should not be any issues. I take the Chairman's point that there are rogue landlords as well as rogue tenants. This is not an issue that just affects students. Students take up one third of the rental market at present, but it affects everyone in the rental market from students to executives, as Threshold pointed out. This is an issue that must be tackled because far too much in terms of resources are taken up in the BRTB, Threshold and student unions across the country. We need to move forward and USI welcomes the commitment in the programme for Government to introduce a deposit protection scheme.

Does Mr. Ahearn wish to comment?

Mr. Scott Ahearn

In its presentation the PRTB stated that t it dealt with 78,000 telephone calls. Obviously it would deal with a wide range of issues, but the 0.04% as an accurate representation of individuals who had to follow up the retention of the deposit is not realistic. Threshold deals with 20,000 people and the student unions deal with hundreds of students day in day out over an academic year. It is not, therefore, an accurate reflection to say that only 240 people have lost deposits. The petitions we have received from our membership indicate deposit retention is a major issue for students, their parents and all people who rent.

Mr. Fintan McNamara

The Chairman raised an interesting scenario. I was caught by surprise when he raised the issue of a client account, with the deposit untouchable except when it must be paid back to the tenant. That is an interesting suggestion. Currently, when estate agents collect a deposit on a sale of a property the money must be lodged in a client account by law. If they default on that, there are severe penalties and they face expulsion from our organisation and extensive fines.

Do those rules govern estate agents?

Mr. Fintan McNamara

Yes, perhaps that could indeed be applied to the residential rented sector, where the deposits would be put in a separate account and the money would be available to pay the tenant because it would not then be used by the landlord to, for example, go out to dinner that evening. That perception would be wrong. I am opposed to a custodial deposit protection scheme because it would come on top of a raft of regulation on the residential rental sector. Where will it end? We have the most highly regulated rental sector in western Europe, yet there are calls for further regulation. Notwithstanding the concerns raised today, the problem is in reality quite small and the proposed response disproportionate.

The type of scheme that has been mentioned is in operation in only a small number of countries where there is no overarching housing court akin to the Private Residential Tenancies Board. It costs €8 million to operate the board and it has been claimed we would have €300,000 out of this, from the interest, to operate a deposit protection scheme. I am not convinced by that claim and there is a need for the figures to be carefully costed. Investors and landlords are already paying enough and we cannot afford to pay any more.

Does Mr. McNamara agree that the type of scheme we are discussing would be landlord-friendly in that landlords could draw down sums greater than the deposit paid?

Mr. Fintan McNamara

The Chairman makes a very attractive case, but I would have to examine how it would work in practice before commenting on that aspect.

Mr. Bob Jordan

To knock the Anglo-Saxon issue on the head, the reason those countries have introduced deposit protection schemes is that they have a particular type of rental market which goes up to approximately 25%. Many of our friends in Germany, for example, remain tenants for their entire lives and deposits, therefore, do not come into play.

In terms of benefits to landlords under the proposed scheme, a survey undertaken by the Northern Ireland Housing Executive in advance of the introduction of a deposit retention scheme there showed that 44% of landlords were in favour of it. A particular advantage from their perspective is that the deposit is held in a secure place and can be reclaimed when it is needed. In the current economic climate some landlords genuinely cannot stump up €1,000 at the end of a tenancy. We fully support the establishment of an insurance fund for landlords to protect them in cases where a property has been trashed and €1,000 would not go anywhere near meeting the cost of repairs. That should be part of the scheme.

If we get the issue of deposits off the table - and it accounts for half of all landlord-tenant disputes - rent arrears and other issues which exercise landlords and tenants alike, such as illegal evictions, can come into focus. That is to everybody's benefit. Part of the problem in regard to rent arrears is in respect of the rent supplement scheme, with some 50% of all tenancies currently supported by that scheme. In tandem with the introduction of a deposit protection scheme, there should be a reform of rent supplement whereby payment is made directly to the landlord. This would offer security of tenure to tenants and would ensure landlords receive their money. Such a solution would deal to a large extent with the issue of rent arrears.

Both landlords and tenants are victims of letting agents, who are currently unregulated. The Property Services (Regulation) Bill 2009 has been languishing at the Department of Justice and Equality for a considerable period. The notion that one can operate out of the boot of a car, taking deposits and rent from tenants with virtually no regulation, is unacceptable. That legislation must be advanced as soon as possible.

The proposed deposit protection scheme is part of a raft of measures the objective of which is to make the private rental sector fit for purpose. It is an issue that will affect increasing numbers because many people will not be able to afford to purchase homes for the foreseeable future and will be obliged to rent. We expect the census figures to show a sharp increase in the number of people who make up the private rental sector.

Mr. Stephen Faughnan

On the issue of deposit accounts, we are talking, as has been stated, about tenants' money. Mr. McNamara indicated his view that it should be a client account. This would make every landlord in the country responsible to hold deposits in a sole client account, as is the case with auctioneers and others. In the case of rents paid from local authorities, as will hopefully be the case in the near future under the rent supplement scheme, we should let the authorities put in place the same situation they have implemented under the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, whereby one month's rent is allocated as a deposit against any damages to the rented property.

To clarify, as I understand it, rent supplement is paid one month in arrears while payments under RAS are made one month in advance.

Mr. Stephen Faughnan

Yes. In regard to rent supplement, Mr. Jordan suggested it should be paid to the landlord, which we have been advocating for a long time. That would solve many problems. My suggestion is that the local authorities, when they take over the administration of the rent supplement scheme, should consider offering a guarantee to landlords of one or two months' rent to offset damages caused to the property during the tenancy. That would eliminate all cases of deposit retention dispute from the local authority rental sector. In the case of private rented accommodation, including to students, there should be a designated account for every landlord, to be enforced by Revenue. Rather than a cumbersome deposit retention scheme, such changes are the way to go, together with amendments to legislation to allow disputes to be held within seven days, with an appeal process for a maximum of seven days.

Ms Margaret McCormick

It is important to bear in mind that even with a deposit protection scheme in place, there would still be disputes between aggrieved landlords and tenants and those cases would still have to be processed.

Mr. Brendan Whelan

The delegates from the PRTB mentioned earlier that part of the reason disputes take so long to resolve is the way they are built into the legislation. The problem will only be solved by amending the legislation. In tandem with a deposit retention scheme, there must also be a change to the dispute resolution system by way of the relevant legislation.

Mr. Fintan McNamara

Mr. Jordan remarked that letting agents are particularly culpable in terms of deposits. There is a great deal of anecdotal evidence to support that assertion. I understand the Property Services (Regulation) Bill 2009 will come before the committee on 19 October and that provision will be made therein to ensure letting agents are brought to book for any misdemeanours in this area.

As Ms McCormick said, no matter what scheme is in place, we will still have deposit disputes. In the United Kingdom the pattern has been that in 55% of cases, the deposit has been mediated. New Zealand has also seen a large numbers of disputes. Coping with that will impose an increased staffing requirement on the PRTB at a time when it is experiencing cutbacks in staff. It will also impose greater expense on the sector. At the risk of labouring the point, what is required is a simplified registration system, renewable once every four years, in order to free up staff to perform their core function, with deposits being dealt with in the one of the ways we have discussed.

I thank the delegates for briefing the committee and responding to questions raised. I also thank the representatives of the PRTB who remained to observe the deliberations and the committee members for their contributions. I propose, with the delegates' permission, that today's presentations be published on the committee's website.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.20 p.m. until 4.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 11 October 2011.
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