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Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 Apr 2022

Working Conditions and Skills Shortages in Tourism and Hospitality Sector: Discussion (Resumed)

Today, we are meeting representatives of the Restaurants Association of Ireland, RAI, the Irish Hotel Federation and Fáilte Ireland to discuss skills shortages and working conditions in the tourism and hospitality sector. I extend a very big fáilte to all our guests.

On behalf of the committee, I warmly welcome Mr. Mark McGowan, president, and Mr. Adrian Cummins, chief executive officer, RAI. They are joined by their colleague, Ms Amy Sweetman, public affairs manager, who is attending the meeting via Microsoft Teams. I welcome Mr. Tim Fenn, chief executive, and Ms Denyse Campbell, president, Irish Hotels Federation, who are in the committee room, as well as their colleague, Mr. Eoin Quinn, director of member services, who joins us remotely via Microsoft Teams. Finally, I welcome from Fáilte Ireland Mr. Paul Kelly, chief executive, and Ms Jenny De Saulles, director of sector development. They are joined by their colleague, Mr. Caeman Wall, head of economics and industry analysis, who joins us remotely via Microsoft Teams.

The format of the meeting is that I will invite all witnesses to deliver their opening statements, which have been limited to five minutes, and this will be followed by questions from the members. As witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish the opening statements on our web page following today's meeting.

To limit the risk of spreading Covid-19, the Houses of the Oireachtas Service encourages all members, witnesses and visitors to continue to wear a face mask when moving around the campus and when they are in close proximity to one another, to be respectful of others' physical space and to adhere to any other public health advice.

Before inviting the witnesses to make to deliver their opening statements, I wish to explain a number of limitations in regard to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Oireachtas in regard to references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. However, as a number of today's witnesses are giving evidence remotely from a place outside the parliamentary precincts, and as such they may not benefit from the same level of immunity. Such witnesses may think it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise to engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identifiable person or entity, they may be directed to discontinue their remarks.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present in the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings. I cannot permit members to attend where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. I also ask members when contributing via Microsoft Teams to identify themselves when contributing for the benefit of the Debates Office staff preparing the Official Report. Members should mute their microphones when they are not contributing to reduce background noise and feedback. Finally, I ask everybody to put their phones on silent or, better again, switch them off.

I propose that witnesses make the opening statements in the following order: the Restaurants Association of Ireland to go first, followed by the Irish Hotels Federation and, finally, Fáilte Ireland.

Without further ado, I call Mr. Adrian Cummins to give his opening statement.

Mr. Adrian Cummins

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak today. The Chair has already introduced my colleague. We are thankful to be able to speak to the committee regarding working conditions and skills shortages in the tourism and hospitality sector.

The hospitality and tourism sector is facing a crisis because of a shortage of skilled staff. This crisis started in 2012. The RAI flagged this problem then with the relevant Government Departments and Fáilte Ireland. We highlighted that we were facing a shortage of chefs, in particular. That dearth of staff has now extended across all parts of the industry. Regarding addressing working conditions, we welcome recent and upcoming legislation seeking to provide more secure employment in the hospitality sector. The Employment Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2018, for example, outlawed zero-hour contracts and ensures employees receive their core terms of employment within five working days. Similarly, the Sick Leave Bill 2022, dealing with statutory sick pay, and legislation to enable pension auto-enrolment will bring Ireland into line with its European counterparts concerning employer social security contributions. Additionally, the Payment of Wages (Amendment) (Tips and Gratuities) Bill 2022 will outlaw the use of tips or gratuities to constitute any part of contractual wages. We also welcome the transparency this Bill brings via customer displays and employee notices, which will state the use and distribution of electronic gratuities, tips and service charges.

Upskilling those working in the hospitality sector is vital in maintaining standards. The Government-funded Restaurant and Hospitality Skillnet established in 2017 has so far trained more than 19,000 employees. Its purpose is to provide upskilling to employers and employees in the sector. Promoting positive work practices is at the forefront of its activities, and recent courses have included classes focused on health well-being, stress management, coaching skills and supervisory skills. The RAI regularly engages with the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC. We welcome WRC inspections. If any employer or business is found not to be abiding by employment law or if an employee is mistreated in any way, we wholeheartedly support the WRC’s role as the statutory body to protect employees’ rights and to impose sanctions where necessary.

Fáilte Ireland’s recent research identified a skills shortage of 40,000 people in the tourism and hospitality sector. There is a glaring and immediate need for oversight of training and development in the sector, but Fáilte Ireland currently has no remit for hospitality. In this context, the National Tourism Development Authority Act 2003 requires amending to give Fáilte Ireland a remit for hospitality that covers restaurants and pubs. Last year, this committee recommended that a representative of the restaurant and pub sector be appointed to the board of Fáilte Ireland, but this has not happened.

The sector urgently needs a plan and a funded task force for future development, promotion and training. While education and training boards, ETBs, and institutes of technology are offering many tourism and culinary courses, they are, by their own admission, working in silos. The 2015 report of the expert group on future skills needs, entitled an Assessment of Future Skills Requirements in the Hospitality Sector in Ireland, 2015-2020, found there to be "a need for a more structured approach nationally of responsibility to drive the hospitality sector to meet skills demand to 2020" and "an absence of an overall leadership and co-ordination function for the skills development of the hospitality sector”.

How do we solve the staff shortage problem? As a matter of urgency, we are calling on Government Departments and Fáilte Ireland to engage with the industry to commence an immediate recruitment drive within the EU to save the summer season. We need targeted international recruitment fairs, that are Government-backed, to be held inside and outside the EU to attract suitably-qualified hospitality and tourism candidates.

Turning to work permits, the processing time now stands at 21 weeks. This includes four weeks for the mandatory labour market needs test and, if visas are needed, it can take more than six months for employees to get into the country and to commence work. In contrast, the processing time in the UK is six weeks. Regarding apprenticeships, the RAI has been involved with the development and implementation of three culinary apprenticeships, in association with the Irish Hotels Federation, IHF. We welcome the introduction of grants to bring parity to traditional and new apprenticeships. This is a welcome long-term solution to the skills shortage in the tourism and hospitality sector. We thank the committee members for their time and for allowing us the opportunity to speak on these matters, and we look forward to their questions.

I thank Mr. Cummins for his statement. Undoubtedly, it will attract many questions from my colleagues. Next, I call Mr. Tim Fenn.

Mr. Tim Fenn

The IHF welcomes this opportunity to address the committee on working conditions and skill shortages in the tourism and hospitality sector. The IHF is the national representative body of the hotel and guest house sector in Ireland. Our membership ranges from small, family-run hotels and guest houses to large international hotel groups, including all categories in that description, from budget to luxury hotels.

Our submission outlines our sector’s pursuit of excellence in employment standards, people development and the structured opportunities for advancement our industry provides. We also address some of the issues we face, including skills shortages and a requirement to immediately review the work permits system, which is failing to respond effectively to the current skills gap in a competitive employment market. The tourism and hospitality sector experienced phenomenal growth in employment, 57% or 98,000 people, from 2011 to 2019, prior to the onset of Covid–19. The industry then supported 269,700 livelihoods, equating to one in ten of all Irish jobs, with 70% of these jobs located outside Dublin. Of this figure, 179,800 people were employed in accommodation and food services, including 65,000 people who were employed directly in hotels and guest houses. This growth is testament to the recruitment, development and retention success achieved by the industry.

By April 2021, due to the impact of Covid-19, hotel employment had dropped from 65,000 to 26,900, including those supported by the employment wage subsidy scheme, EWSS. We then identified the training and upskilling needs of almost 30,000 people, and these were mainly kitchen, food and beverage and accommodation roles. Hotel employment has recovered to 54,500, which is a positive result given the enormously difficult trading environment and the devastating impact of Covid-19. We estimate that 19,000 people require training and upskilling.

We look forward to restoring the livelihoods of approximately 270,000 people, and more, in the coming years. In doing so, we will continue to promote the best-in-class employer practices that have made our industry what it is today. It provides a wonderful environment for people who are passionate about their jobs and interested in opportunities for career progression. We are also focused on bridging the skills gap by developing bespoke education and training programmes, to be undertaken before and during employment, and improving co-operation and engagement with education providers to build employee capabilities and skills. Our submission provides a summary of the extensive human resource, education and training and health and well-being supports available.

Regarding working conditions, Ireland has a comprehensive framework of employment rights and Government proposals are imminent in areas such as the introduction of a statutory sick pay scheme, deciding to provide for auto enrolment in pensions and proposals to develop a living wage. Labour overheads account for between 36% and 45% of costs in hospitality businesses. Of the 27 EU member states, 21 have a statutory minimum wage. The minimum wage rate in Ireland, in nominal terms, is the second highest, after Luxembourg. It will be apparent from any review of employment advertisements that employers are offering rates of pay above the minimum levels for many roles to attract and retain people. Employees in our sector also benefit from gratuities provided by customers.

We welcome the opportunity to engage with the committee and we look forward to dealing with members' questions.

I thank Mr. Fenn for his comprehensive presentation to the committee today. I invite Mr. Kelly of Fáilte Ireland to make his opening statement.

Mr. Paul Kelly

In my opening statement I will highlight some key findings from Fáilte Ireland’s most comprehensive research to date into the tourism and hospitality labour market and I will outline our work to support businesses in overcoming the current staffing and skills shortages. First I wish to say a few words about the important role tourism played in Ireland’s employment history. Tourism has an unparalleled track record of providing a huge range of employment opportunities in communities the length and breadth of the country. From entry level roles to CEOs of major multinational hotel chains and airlines and from general managers of the world’s best hotels and attractions to Michelin star chefs, the Irish tourism industry can be hugely proud of the role it played in rapidly rebuilding employment after the financial crisis to a high of over 260,000 jobs. Moreover, we have established over many decades a world-renowned reputation for excellence, quality and service by those working in Irish tourism. This reputation will be critically important now as we compete for workers internationally. I think successive Governments and their agencies can also be proud of the role we have played in supporting the industry in achieving this success.

One of Fáilte Ireland’s key strategic priorities is to help build employment in the tourism industry. As part of this, we aim to support the industry to be an appealing and rewarding industry in which to work. This part of our remit has never been as important as it is now. The current staffing and skills shortages are unprecedented. However, we recognise that staffing shortages are not just a problem in the tourism sector, there are many sectors of the Irish economy facing this same challenge and tourism globally is also experiencing it. The loss of skilled workers and the difficulty in recruiting and retaining staff is undoubtedly one of the greatest barriers to the sector’s recovery from the pandemic. Even before Covid-19, the tourism industry faced a particular set of employment challenges in attracting workers and retaining them. The closure of the sector on public health advice during Covid-19 exacerbated these challenges significantly.

Whilst employers are the drivers of making tourism a truly rewarding and attractive place to work, a cross-sector effort is vital in supporting the industry to address the full scale of the challenges ahead. Fáilte Ireland works directly with industry bodies such as the Irish Hotels Federation to develop sector-specific strategies to make working in the industry more appealing. Also, through the tourism and hospitality careers oversight group, Fáilte Ireland works with industry bodies, Government agencies and the further and higher education sectors to collectively address staffing, skills and perception challenges at a national level. The group’s current focus is the urgent issue at hand – supporting the industry to recruit the staff it needs for the season ahead.

To help inform our analysis and response to both the immediate and long-term challenges, Fáilte Ireland conducted the most comprehensive piece of research ever undertaken into the tourism and hospitality labour market in late 2021 as these challenges emerged. The purpose was to assess the employment landscape within the sector; establish the core challenges inhibiting recruitment and retention; and provide the basis for our work in supporting businesses. The research was very robust. We surveyed 1,000 businesses and 5,000 workers overall, including 3,500 within tourism and hospitality. We benchmarked internationally and engaged extensively with the recruitment industry. Based on our research we estimate that there are 40,000 vacancies across the industry, with one quarter of those at a senior level. The loss of skills is evident across all roles, as one worker in three now is new to the tourism sector. Of the 1,000 businesses surveyed, 30% face closure if recruitment challenges are not resolved. Many have had to reduce their opening hours or limit the services they provide or both. This means revenue opportunities are reduced, which will slow down the overall recovery of the sector.

Fáilte Ireland is supporting the industry to fill these vacancies in several ways. First, we are supporting businesses to access potential staff who are readily available. Regionally, we are helping the industry to build relationships with further and higher education providers to reach students and recent graduates who are available to work at peak times and become a key part of the seasonal workforce. We are working with the Department of Social Protection to promote the pathways to work strategy and improve opportunities for tourism and hospitality businesses to recruit from the live register. To help ensure a future pipeline of talent and inspire the future generation of tourism, Fáilte Ireland recently launched the first ever industry-wide transition year work placement programme to provide tourism and hospitality businesses with a direct link to students looking for work experience placements, which can progress to become seasonal roles. To date, there are over 600 placements available to students across the country. Internationally, we are also supporting the industry to identify the international markets with most potential for access to workers. To drive awareness of the variety of roles available, we have already invested over €300,000 in marketing campaigns since the industry reopened last summer. This month we will launch a new multi-platform recruitment awareness campaign with an allocation of €450,000 to promote the unique benefits of working in the industry targeting people ranging in ages from 16 to 60 years. Our tourismcareers.ie website, which promotes jobs, courses and careers, has been optimised to drive tens of thousands of potential jobseekers to live job advertisements in the sector. This is complemented by a range of programmes to build skills and capability for businesses and individual employees, including best practice recruitment supports and a suite of online self-directed professional development courses. This will help to alleviate the pressure on businesses to upskill and train new staff, while also helping employees to develop their own career in their own time.

If I may interrupt Mr. Kelly, I ask that he bring his opening remarks to a conclusion as he has gone way over his time. I am sure we will get to extract the other points out of his presentation.

Mr. Paul Kelly

There are many excellent employers in our sector but there are also some who are not yet demonstrating best practice employment standards. To help improve this situation Fáilte Ireland is launching a new excellent employer programme to help all participating businesses to improve their employer practices and build their reputation as excellent employers.

Tourism is a building block for regional balance and a critical contributor to social cohesion. It is essential for creating sustainable communities and a significant generator of jobs in regional and rural Ireland. As a critical part of the national economy, only when tourism recovers can there be a full nationwide recovery.

I thank our witnesses for their opening statements.

I thank all our guests for their attendance. I note that Ms Campbell has just been elected to her role. I compliment the entire sector on the work it has done over the last two years. It has been extraordinarily difficult for everyone in the tourism and hospitality sector. All public representatives will have got calls around the various schemes and I do not think a day went by when Adrian Cummins was not send us messages asking us about stuff. The response by the Government and the Oireachtas showed there was a recognition of the importance of trying to keep the sector afloat during very difficult times.

It is also important to say, and I am glad that Mr. Kelly pointed it out, that there are many excellent employers within the tourism and hospitality sector. I know a lot of family-run businesses, in particular, treat their staff almost like family and care enormously. Where there is poor practice, I am sure the representative organisations here would call on them to adhere to best practice and to the models Mr. Kelly mentioned. They might refer to that in their responses. The big issue is around skill shortages. I hear this from those in the sector in Wexford. The number one issue is getting skilled staff. There are a number of solutions that were set out. Mr. Cummins spoke about a trade mission to look at other EU countries but the problem is that there are similar skills shortages there. I am not sure about it and maybe Mr. Cummins might outline the benefit in that regard. Mr. Fenn and Mr. Kelly made a point around the medium- to long-term solution. How can we attract people back into the tourism and hospitality sector? A lot of people have left. It is tough work in many cases. They have re-evaluated their lives. We have to look at how, in a very competitive jobs market, we can attract those who are looking at career options in life. Then, dare I mention, older people in the workforce and how we can attract older people who may want to come back in to work, say, two or three days a week? They may not want to have a full-time job but they can still contribute enormously. Is there a role for the sector in attracting those people?

I have thrown out a number of points. We might go in the same order.

Mr. Adrian Cummins

I will focus on recruitment and international recruitment. The Senator is correct. Both the RAI and the IHF are part of the Confederation of National Associations of Hotels, Restaurants, Cafés and Similar Establishments in the European Union and European Economic Area, HOTREC. The countries that we would recommend that the Government would start international trade missions to would be countries with high youth unemployment and Spain, Portugal, Greece and Croatia. We have already had some achievements with regard to attracting staff from Croatia, which has a smaller population density. I recommend that our first port of call is to go to the Mediterranean and promote Ireland as a destination for work. We should also benchmark what we did, as a country, in the past. During the crash the Canadians arrived here and offered all types of jobs in Canada. They came to the RDS and set up their promotions with the result that 20,000 Irish people went to Canada. We need a co-ordinated effort not just in hospitality but in other sectors as well because the construction sector and other sectors are crying out for staff. I think that we can work on this matter.

On the area of businesses that provide and do not provide good practice, we need to root out any business that does not treat its staff properly. There is the statutory agency called the WRC, as I said in my opening statement. We need more inspections. Wherever wrongdoing is found needs to be dealt with properly and accordingly thus ensuring that we have a proper sector in the future but I think that we need more WRC inspections.

Mr. Tim Fenn

This is probably the single biggest issue that our industry will face over the next couple of years. As I outlined earlier, our industry was hugely successful in growing employment before Covid. When Covid happened our industry was asked to close, which we did. In fact, we were asked to close again and again but during that time people left the industry. They left for different reasons. Some people had transferable skills and went to work in other industries. Some people left because they could not wait as they had to provide for their families, etc., and some people went home to their own counties.

Ireland now faces the situation where the Irish economy in total has performed extremely well over the last couple of years. Ireland has gone from 25% unemployment right down to less than 5% by the end of the year, possibly. That means we now have an extremely competitive market. Our activities to restore the number of people in our industry and restore skill levels centre around all aspects of our engagement for that with second-level students, transition year programmes, the Get a Life in Tourism magazines. We also engage with the education providers such as the education and training boards, the technological universities and the IHF Skillnet, similar to the RAI. We have a whole raft of structures around that.

The reality is that there is no way that the domestic market can help us completely fill the jobs requirements that we have planned for in the next couple of years. The single biggest issue for us at the moment is that we are hugely successful in training people. They travel the world to run hotels everywhere and are hugely successful in doing that. We are not able to bring anybody back because the structure of the permit system at the moment is completely and utterly dysfunctional. One must apply for one person and 26 weeks later one may or may not get a successful application but that person will have gone to somewhere else in the world. The permit system does not work and that is not right. Somewhere or other the permit structure must change and immediately. It is more than just the number of people that process the permits in the Department. It is about the legal structures around the barriers. I refer to the non-trade tariff barriers that are in place to make sure that nobody can come back into the country. That is a key issue for us.

We ask the Government for support around the structures of identifying the future skill needs in the industry. It is about eight years since we did a detailed report on this and we ask for some money to be spent on that.

There are skilled people in the industry who want to upskill. We would like to put a little bit more money into the off-the-job training. I refer to the commis chef apprenticeship programme, which is one in particular that we are involved with, and also for the chef de partie programme and the other training structures that are in place. Even if we have all of these in place there is something in the order of €1 billion sitting in the national training fund at present but maybe there is always a requirement to have a reserve. We have a national crisis and we would like to see some of that money ring-fenced for the tourism and hospitality sector to help us built up the skills base again.

Earlier we identified some of the challenges around the numbers. We said that there was about 54,000 people now working in hotels and there were 65,000 people before Covid. Within that there is a double element. Some of the people are working and need to be upskilled but there are jobs within there that we just do not have people for. One can place advertisements all day long in the newspapers for senior chefs or whatever but they just do not exist here in Ireland at the moment. We cannot train people quick enough so we would like to see some action regarding permits.

I have a related question for Mr. Kelly. We can provide as many programmes and courses as required but how can we attract people to careers in the tourism and hospitality sector?

Mr. Paul Kelly

There is no silver bullet. The solution is a combination of providing work permits for non-EU workers. Both Mr. Fenn and Mr. Cummins have eloquently outlined the issues and I will not add to that.

In terms of recruiting from within the market, Ms De Saulles will talk about the approach that we are taking. We have a marketing recruitment campaign that is about to kick off. We have ran campaigns and we will run more. The solution is a combination of those campaigns but, importantly, it is also a combination regarding the reputation of employers in the industry. We know from our research that 70% of people are very happy with their employment in the industry, enjoy going to work and see tourism as a long-term career option. That is a very good percentage but it could be higher and we want it to be higher. These positive aspects will attract more people. The career prospects are fantastic in terms of the ability to travel, grow, move into bigger roles and quickly move up the career progression ladder. All of that exists in the industry but there is an element of ensuring that people consistently see and understand that.

Ms Jenny De Saulles

In terms of overseas, we currently have a tender out at the moment. As Mr. Cummins mentioned, there is a lot of good work being done by employers to secure international staff. One of the things that we are looking to do is map the markets and identify where Ireland can be competitive in an incredibly competitive market, which has been said. We must identify the access points and we, in Fáilte Ireland, will help businesses to access them.

One of the other key points about recruitment is capability. We need to remember that many tourism businesses are small SME businesses and they do not have human resources or HR teams. One of the big things that we are doing is helping them to build competitiveness in the recruitment process. As Mr. Fenn has said, with 5% unemployment the market is no longer about where a person can get a job but which job to take. It is important that businesses within the tourism and hospitality sector showcase their job in the best way and it is not always just about salary. That is one of the big things to emerge following Covid is that people want flexibility and a work-life balance. We have provided a programme that educates people on how to recruit in a competitive market, interview to win and do other key pieces to onboard their staff successfully. Sometimes businesses recruit but they do not give the time and energy to get the person settled into the business in the first four weeks and because the person has choices he or she decides to leave.

There is a lot of work happening, as well as the recruitment campaign Mr. Kelly mentioned. The other key piece is the appeal and that is where we talk about our excellent employer programme.

I welcome the witnesses. I thank them for their constructive engagement during Covid and their advocacy on behalf of thousands of businesses and hundreds of thousands of employees. I also welcome Ms Denyse Campbell and wish her the very best in her presidency, succeeding the good work of Ms Elaina Fitzgerald Kane.

My first question follows on from what Senator Byrne said about addressing the working conditions in Ireland's tourism and hospitality sector. What are the witnesses' views on the joint labour committee, JLC, and its advocacy on behalf of the sector? How important is that to ensure recruitment and retention for employees within the sector going forward?

Mr. Adrian Cummins

We have not been involved in a JLC since 2011. That is when the constitutional challenge was taken by the Quick Food Service Alliance. We have not been involved in one since and we do not see a need to be in one. We have industrial harmony within our sector. There was rapid growth in our industry in the years after the JLC was disbanded, from 2012 or 2013 up as far as 2017. There was rapid growth of employee numbers within our industry. My premise is that we have a statutory agency in place to look after employee working conditions and we have numerous Acts to protect employee rights within the State. We need to have more inspectors on the ground, not just in hospitality but across other sectors as well. Yesterday the chairperson of the WRC gave a presentation on this. There were 4,500 inspections of businesses throughout Covid. We can increase that. Businesses are looking for extra staff and that is the way to make sure they do the right thing. Every business should be treated exactly the same. We had this issue during the time of the JLCs where one business would be treated totally differently from another. That was one of the most frustrating things about it.

Mr. Tim Fenn

The Irish Hotels Federation believes JLCs lost their relevance on the introduction of the national minimum wage. We do not believe it is appropriate for some sectors to be singled out for the imposition of pay rates and conditions in excess of the levels applied to other sectors. The system is outdated, complex and inflexible. We have more than 40 Acts to protect employees and, as I mentioned earlier, there are three key developments on the immediate horizon relating to auto-enrolment for pensions, sick pay and the living wage. None of these measures were in place when the JLCs were established. Of the eight JLCs currently in place, only two are operational and we understand there is a legal challenge to one of those. Overriding all of this is that there are harmonious industrial relations in our industry at present. Not only that, we also have engagement at enterprise level with unions as appropriate. We do not see the need to return to the JLCs, which are no longer relevant because of the national minimum wage structure.

With regard to the unavoidable conditions within the tourism and hospitality sector, such as unsociable hours and so on, what potential mechanisms would bolster that work-life balance for people who want to enter this sector for a lifelong career?

Mr. Paul Kelly

There are a couple of realities of working in this sector that we cannot get away from. One is that tourism and hospitality does not exist from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., Monday to Friday. It goes on on weekends and late nights and so people need to be served and looked after at that stage. An awful lot of roles in the sector - although not all - cannot be done remotely and workers are looking for the ability to work remotely or in a hybrid manner. With many of the roles in this sector, people need to be on-site to look after their guests and customers. The other thing is that the margins within which the businesses in this sector operate are incredibly tight and, generally speaking, far tighter than many other sectors, which means the amount available to pay people is also more challenged. Those are some of the challenges the industry faces. The only way to get over those challenges and attract workers in the long term is to have jobs that people love doing and a work environment that people love coming into. When we do research among people who work in the sector and people who want to work in it, the main driver is the passion for the job, the diversity of the job, looking after people and interacting with them. It is about that passion for the job and the love of it. That is the key thing. We need to make sure people can experience that and enjoy it, in the context of consistently brilliant employer practices. We have to get those great employer practices that are out there and just try to increase the consistency. It is more of a challenged when there are, as Ms De Saulles noted, lots of small employers that do not have the same kind of global best-practice big HR departments telling them how to apply the latest thinking around engagement with employees, etc. That is a challenge for those businesses. That is where industry associations and Fáilte Ireland can help educate those small businesses and bring that expertise to them. That is really the only way through that.

On the oversight of training and development within the tourism and hospitality sector, we all know Fáilte Ireland has no remit over hospitality. In developing these programmes, looking out for pubs and restaurants etc., how does Fáílte Ireland work in collaboration with the RAI and so on?

Mr. Paul Kelly

Hospitality is a complex area. There are not great data available in this context but the best data we have seen show that approximately 20% of the revenue of the pub and restaurant sector is down to tourism and 80% is non-tourism related. We need great pubs and restaurants to offer a great visitor experience so there are a number of mutual areas and that is how we would try to work. Our remit as defined in legislation is around tourism and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has a wider hospitality area under its remit, as well as many other sectors. We would work on areas of mutual benefit. We need chefs in both hotels and restaurants and we need waiters in hotels and in restaurants, and so on. With regard to the mechanisms that support that, the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media have the tourism and hospitality forum. Specifically for staffing and skills, we have the tourism and hospitality careers oversight group, which Fáilte Ireland chairs. That is a co-ordination group for the tourism and hospitality business sectors, as well as education providers.

They are the mechanisms to try to provide a joined-up approach.

I thank Mr. Kelly. What would Mr. Cummins like to see in terms of future development in training programmes and oversight to support his members?

Mr. Adrian Cummins

Currently, we are working in silos. We need to have one overarching organisation to look after policy for skills development in hospitality and tourism, the delivery of it and the recruitment area. We had that in the past with CERT, which was disbanded in 2003. As a person who has grown up and worked in hospitality all my life, I know the benefits of what CERT did. It had boots on the ground and knew exactly what was needed for the industry and for the pubs, restaurants, hotels, tourism facilities, adventure and so forth of the day. We need to revisit that and establish what type of system is fit for purpose, is beneficial to the taxpayer ultimately and is able to deliver so we do not get into the scenario where we are always here before a committee talking about a shortage of skilled labour. We have been talking about this since 2012 and we never got to the nub of it to ensure we have enough trainees coming into the system and enough training places around the country. We must have proper training programmes in place and the structures in place for permits, delivery and engagement with the industry to have a fit-for-purpose industry to return to pre-pandemic days. However, we were always looking for staff and we must fix that problem as soon as possible.

I welcome all our guests, especially Mr. Mark McGowan from Drogheda. My first questions are for Mr. Kelly from Fáilte Ireland. In his opening statement, he raised issues of concern in the sector in respect of workers' pay and conditions that came to light from the extensive research done in 2021. He said workers mentioned that pay has to be improved and conditions in terms of work practices, labour planning, job structures, entitlements and the like must also be improved. He then went on to say that margins are tight and the nature of tourism means unsociable hours. Is that the gist of his response to this? What about recommending better pay and conditions for workers? These are measures that will make a real difference. It is not rocket science. Mr. Kelly also referred to the excellent employer programme. Are those recommendations included in that programme?

Mr. Paul Kelly

There is no workforce in any sector of the economy who, if asked what they would like, would not like to be paid more.

I am sorry, but time is of the essence. We are here today to talk specifically about Mr. Kelly's sector.

Mr. Paul Kelly

I understand that, but the Deputy might let me answer the question with regard to the findings of the research. As I said, we would expect to see pay come up everywhere, and it did arise. However, it has to be said that the level of pay that is being offered now in the sector would be well in excess of what was being offered at the time of this research. Due to the tight labour market, we are hearing time and again of it going up. Absolutely, we are seeing it going up. It is being driven by supply and demand.

I am sorry, but my question was about the recommendation for better pay and conditions. Will that be included in the excellent employer programme?

Mr. Paul Kelly

I will ask Ms De Saulles to reply.

Ms Jenny De Saulles

The excellent employer programme is about focusing on what the employee is saying. That is the basis of the programme. It is about the employee so the basis of the programme is that each business commits to doing an employee survey each year. The business identifies what it is doing really well and what it is not doing so well and then-----

For clarity, the excellent employer programme will not include a recommendation for better pay and conditions.

Ms Jenny De Saulles

The excellent employer is not about recommendations-----

I just wanted clarity on that. The Restaurants Association of Ireland made reference to a restaurant and pub representative being appointed to the board of Fáilte Ireland, and this committee recommended that. However, that has not happened to date. Is there a particular reason for that?

Mr. Paul Kelly

If that question is directed to me, the make-up of the members of the board of Fáilte Ireland is a matter for the Minister. It is important to point out there are two members of the board of Fáilte Ireland who are members of the Irish Hotels Federation and are members of the Licensed Vintners Association. However, as board members of any organisation, their responsibility is not to represent where they come from but to provide oversight of the organisation of which they are board members. The make-up of the board is a matter for the Minister, but it is important to note there are far more industry associations operating in tourism than there are board positions on Fáilte Ireland so-----

Okay, perhaps the committee can follow up on that with the Minister. I turn to Mr. Fenn and Ms Campbell of the Irish Hotels Federation. In their previous submission to the committee in January, and they touched on this earlier, they were very clear they were against joint labour committees, JLCs. I believe they said JLCs are utterly unnecessary and that they favour the minimum wage and the employment industrial relations legislation, which is very weak in this State. They also mentioned tips in the opening statement today. They said, "Employees in our sector also benefit from gratuities provided by customers." That is well and fine, but tips are not guaranteed. There is a Bill going through the Houses regarding tips, to afford workers the protection of guaranteeing their tips because of practices that were ongoing. However, most people would say it is up to the employer to pay the staff and not to be including the possibility of tips on top of that. According to Fáilte Ireland's research and, indeed, Unite the Union, 62% of respondents said better pay would encourage them to work for an employer and 56% said they would like similar entitlements to other jobs. Given the chronic shortage of staff, would the Irish Hotels Federation accept its industry's refusal to entertain better pay and conditions is exacerbating the recruitment problems in the industry?

Mr. Tim Fenn

I am not sure where the Deputy sees we refuse to entertain better pay and conditions. That is not what we are saying.

The federation favours the minimum wage and the employment industrial relations legislation, weak as it is. It is obviously against JLCs. My question is specifically about the industry's refusal to entertain better pay and conditions. As I said to Mr. Kelly from Fáilte Ireland, it is not rocket science. There is 5% unemployment at present so people have choices. If the federation is not offering proper pay and conditions, that would explain the shortage.

Mr. Tim Fenn

To return to what I said earlier, our industry was massively successful in growing 90,000 jobs from 2011 to 2019. Covid-19 arrived and we were asked to close the industry. We were closed down perhaps four times and that was hugely destructive to the people and the jobs in our industry. We now have the job of restoring and rebuilding the employment in the industry. Most importantly, we now see a change in the structure and the demands of people regarding what they want in their jobs.

One of the great advantages of the hotel industry is we operate 24 hours a day for 365 days a year, which means we have a very broad roster structure.

People are now looking at satisfying prospective employees' demands for flexibility around the number of hours they wish to work. In the past, our industry might have had a certain minimum number of people all working 40 hours a week, sometimes more. What we see now is that the number of hours people are willing to work is less, and we are working to achieve that. We are also paying particular attention to work-life balance and all the other issues people have now rightly taken stock of in their lives during Covid. They want to start a different life post Covid. We feel as if we are in a good position to facilitate that. We do not get involved in pay rates and so on or in fixing pay, but we know from looking at the various advertisements for employment that the rates of pay are significantly increased and that in certain jobs there are highly paid positions that are just not being filled because the people to fill them do not exist. Does Ms Campbell wish to come in on that and give a sense of the type of approach we are taking to people at the moment and how we are looking after them?

Sorry, no, I have got Mr. Fenn's answer, which was quite detailed but which still does not solve the sector's problems. Perhaps it should be considered whether or not any moves the sector or some employers are making are sufficient, and perhaps others are making no moves at all. I imagine that if things in the sector do not improve, the staff shortage is set to continue.

The RAI referred to the delays with work permits, explaining the length of the delays and the problems it is causing. Perhaps the committee could write to the Minister asking about this, whether it is a real problem and whether it is posing a problem for recruitment. That might be an idea.

On that point, Unite has expressed concerns about non-EU workers coming here, including Ukrainian refugees, due to their vulnerability in the context of language barriers and their precarious position in society generally and that this would lead to their being exploited. Can the witnesses comment as to what steps their industry is taking to alleviate those concerns?

We have run out of time in this slot. Can Mr. Cummins be brief in his response to Deputy Munster?

Mr. Adrian Cummins

As for workers coming into the State who are on work permits, there are, obviously, conditions to the work permit. Their terms and conditions, rate of pay and contract are stated very clearly. That is all in the work permit. I keep going back to the point that we have to treat every worker equally, properly and correctly. As an industry, we need to say to employers that it does not matter whether they have non-EU, EU or Irish nationals working in their businesses, that everybody must be treated equally. We have terms and conditions and employment law and everybody abides by that. As for work permits, I wholeheartedly support the Deputy's proposal in respect of the 21 weeks. It is taking far too long to get work permits in this country.

I thank Deputy Munster for her line of questioning.

I welcome all our guests. I thank them for taking the time to be with us and for their contributions. It has been a very tough two years, and it is encouraging to see the industry in general begin to rebuild. All stakeholders have made huge efforts to keep the industry going over the past two years, but the road ahead is difficult and the uncertainty internationally now is not helping matters either. It is to be hoped, however, that we will get there and get back to the heights we scaled previously.

As for the shortage of labour and the difficulties in the labour market, there has been an absolute reset in the economy and in respect of people's thinking about careers, work-life balance and so on. That can be a threat as well as an opportunity for the hospitality and the general tourism sector. It is about trying to identify the people who want to see a change and who may be considering moving into the sector and trying to grasp that opportunity.

May I ask all the witnesses whether there is a need for an increased and better synergy between all stakeholders and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science? Maybe I am missing something, but I think there needs to be greater contact and greater communication between all the stakeholders and that Department. There may be a key role to play in that regard. I would like to get the witnesses' views on that. Having spoken to the Minister, Deputy Harris, I know he is very enthusiastic about doing what he can. I had him in Killarney just a couple of weeks ago at a meeting with representatives of the hospitality sector to discuss these very issues. He is very enthusiastic to see improvements in the area.

To what extent is the inflation crisis resulting in increased wage demands? Is that now manifesting itself on the front lines? Could Mr. Fenn and Ms Campbell share their experiences from the hotel sector and the restaurant sector? Is that a real issue and a knock-on effect of what we see day in, day out?

How much of a factor is the housing shortage and the difficulties in housing in people not being able to relocate to take up employment? I know we have the permits issue, which is a big problem, but there is also the issue of finding a place to live and making the sums work in that regard. How much of a factor is that? Perhaps the following question is one for Mr. Fenn and Ms Campbell in particular. What measures are hoteliers taking? Are measures being taken to try to address this issue, given that hotels - not always, but in most cases - generally seem to have bigger teams than restaurants? Maybe they could give us some information on that.

The final thing I want to ask about is the Ukraine situation. Is there an industry-wide plan to try to match vacancies in the sector with people coming from Ukraine who want to work in the sector? It would be great if we could get people who are here and who want to begin working as soon as possible matched with vacancies in the sector. That will require a plan, however. It will require practical assistance, in particular with such things as childcare and all the other things that will be needed. What progress, if any, has been made in that regard? Appalling as the situation is, it may be a win-win for the industry and for people who are forced to come here in that they would be able to find employment in a sector that is crying out for labour.

I will leave it to the witnesses to take whichever of those questions they wish to take.

Mr. Tim Fenn

We might split out some of the Deputy's questions, for which I thank him. It is appropriate at this juncture to say that the supports provided by the Government and the activity and support we have received from everybody in the Oireachtas has been enormous. It is the reason we are still here today. Businesses have survived and now we hope to get back into the regrowth and development phase. The work that has been done is very much appreciated. I thank Members for that.

Inflation will be a massive problem for all sectors of the economy. We saw the national minimum wage increase by 11.5% between 2016 and 2021. At the same time, inflation went up by 3.9%. That is an increase of two and a half times inflation. The current situation is of concern to us. It is to be hoped that it is a short-term inflation situation because of world economics. It is driven primarily by external factors, so we are importing inflation now.

Realistically, that means our economy will not be able to compensate for it. If we start to react to it, we will create spiralling inflation within the economy. Therefore, we have to be very careful. All we ask is that people recognise the immediate shock to the system. If we follow it down some rabbit hole, we will create spiralling inflation in the Irish economy, which will not be the way to go. The Deputy asked a question in respect of Ukraine. Mr. Quinn might like to give a sense of what we envisage in that regard.

Mr. Eoin Quinn

Our initial focus has been mainly on assisting the Government with the accommodation aspect of the crisis. We are now starting to explore how we might be able to match a demand for employment and assist people to integrate more. We are in the early stages but we are exploring the matter.

Ms Denyse Campbell

The Deputy referred to the changes in people’s requirements when they came back to work after the pandemic. We can see that in the industry. We have offered shorter shifts and have more flexible work rosters. A core focus of the federation is employees’ well-being and welfare, in addition to training and upskilling. It is definitely the case that rosters are shorter.

Reference was made to attracting organisations that are different from those attracted in the past. A lot of work is being done in this regard.

The federation has a quality employer programme, QEP, which assists all our members so they can be compliant and promote excellent human resource management at all times.

I congratulate Ms Campbell on her recent appointment and wish her the best of luck with everything.

Ms Denyse Campbell

I thank the Deputy.

Mr. Mark McGowan

Let me give the Deputy an idea of the position on wage inflation from the restaurant perspective. Most of our members have labour costs of 37% to 38% at the minute, making it impossible to trade in the environment. When we talk about a skills shortage, it generally means the owner of the business, restaurant or café running around trying to do every single job that is to be done.

The Deputy mentioned accommodation. It is an enormous problem in the north east and all over the rest of the country. When we are recruiting, the first question that a prospective employee asks is where he or she is going to live if he or she is to come from abroad. With the rising cost of housing and rent, rising costs make it virtually impossible to employ staff.

We were talking about training. The Restaurants Association of Ireland and all its members have trained up most of the chefs in the country in terms of kitchen porters coming through and working their way up. It is just not really viable. That is another point that must be mentioned. Last summer, we survived with 17- and 18-year-olds coming through. They held the restaurant side together by running around on the floor. We are training staff and then exporting them. They are availing of J1 visas etc., which is another part of the problem.

Mr. Adrian Cummins

In the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, good work is being done on apprenticeships. The grant of €2,000 announced for this year to help employers covers the cost of an apprentice going to college for one day or two days per week. However, the grant is €2,000 regardless of whether the period is one day or two. We need to consider how we can amend the arrangement to support more businesses to get more apprentices on board. The apprenticeship programme represents a cost to business.

Good work is also being done on collaborating with the further and higher education sectors, including education and training boards, ETBs, in the further education sector and the new universities around the country in the higher education sector. The aim is to have better migration of trainees from, say, the ETBs right into universities and up through the pathways associated with the qualifications framework. Much work has been done but there is a lot more we can do. We need to consider how we can do it better.

I take it from the inflationary and labour-related pressures on businesses that an increase in the VAT rate from 1 September would be economic lunacy from the point of view of the witnesses.

Mr. Adrian Cummins

Absolutely.

I thank the delegates. Most of my questions have been asked. I have some observations. The Restaurants Association of Ireland recommended a funded task force for future development and promotion. Who would it recommend should be on that task force?

I cannot get my head around the fact that the Restaurants Association of Ireland has no member in Fáilte Ireland. I do not know whether Fáilte Ireland has an Irish Hotels Federation member. The major problem is that all the organisations are working in a silo and going in different directions. Would a task force help in this regard?

Mr. Adrian Cummins

I thank the Deputy. I will address his points on a task force on skills development and a funded approach. We have a careers oversight group that involves collaboration between the State and industry bodies but it is not funded. We need a secretariat that is funded. The group meets to ascertain the views of the industry and to lobby various Departments to get issues addressed. We need to have a secretariat and funded group given our current position, with 40,000 staff. As I have said continuously, this matter has been an issue for our sector since 2012.

On the representation element, we are very clear. Every tourist that comes into this country has to eat. We stand over the quality of the products produced by farmers across the country and served in restaurants. We need to dial up our food tourism. We did so in the past and need to do so again, especially having regard to sustainability. There is talk about sustainability. Having a representative from the food sector or restaurant sector, or even the pub sector, on a State board for tourism is very important. This was the case in the past. People have been appointed in the past but somehow we have been moved off it. Thankfully, this committee recommended that there should be two representatives. I hope the Minister will see fit to act on this.

Do the delegates believe that Fáilte Ireland should play a greater role in attracting large sports and cultural events? I include domestic ones because we forget about those. There seems to be a lack in this area and in respect of theatres.

Mr. Paul Kelly

I will respond to that specific point. Fáilte Ireland has a business tourism and events team that works on attracting a large number of conferences, incentive trips and events to Ireland on an ongoing basis. Obviously, all that stopped with Covid.

We have a phenomenal recovery pipeline coming in of overseas events. This is looking very positive. We work, obviously, in collaboration with the major events unit in the department, which looks at the major events such as the Euros, the Ryder Cup, etc. There is a huge amount of work that goes on within Fáilte Ireland and within our department in terms of bringing those events. We generally do not do a huge amount of work on domestic events because, from a national economic point of view there is not a major difference whether, for example, Mr. Fenn runs his conference in Kerry, Donegal or Wexford, because it is different parts of the country competing against one another. Our focus is on increasing the overall size of the pie for Ireland by bringing in international events that will move to other countries outside Ireland. A huge amount of work goes on in that regard.

We all come back to the reality of the issue, which is that in his opening statement, Mr. Kelly said employees see pay as a key area that employers need to address if they want to attract and retain staff. That is obviously an issue because before this, pay was not so good to be honest. That is the word I am getting on the ground. I can only say what I heard on the ground. The JLCs were mentioned but should an employment regulation order on the sector with regard to wages be made?

Mr. Paul Kelly

I will hand that to the industry.

In terms of the whole industry, I mean to kind have a situation where, no matter where you go, the wages are the same and so forth. That way everyone will know what they are coming into and what kind of a job they are getting. I was going to ask a question about whether the provision of accommodation also would be more attractive but obviously that was answered as well.

Mr. Tim Fenn

On the pay and conditions, we outlined earlier on that Ireland has the second highest minimum wage in Europe of all of the countries that have minimum wages. At the moment, in a tight labour market, we see evidence that the pay and conditions have increased significantly. That is what happening and that is the reality of it. Pay and conditions are one dimension to attracting new employees. A key part of the initiatives that are happening at the moment relates to providing work-life balance and supports on all aspects of health, well-being and other aspects of people’s lives and livelihood.

Would Mr. Fenn be in favour of the living wage?

Mr. Tim Fenn

As I understand, the Government has charged the Low Pay Commission to have a look at a living wage in the lifetime of this Government. If and when that happens, we hope it will be done on the basis of objective criteria. When that happens, we will just have to deal with it and look to implementing it. However, some way or other, a very high percentage of our industry's turnover goes out on payroll. That can be between 35% and 45%. Therefore, any change or any Government or central interference in pay rates will have an impact on the ability of businesses to provide the quality of service that they do. It is an area that will be of concern as well. At the end of the day, this economy is not a low-cost economy. We have to ensure that when we restore and regrow our industry again, we can do it in a manner that will fit the type of economy that we have.

I have one last question. Does Mr. Fenn support the right for employees to keep all tips?

Mr. Tim Fenn

I am sorry, I missed that question.

Does Mr. Fenn support a right for employees to keep all tips?

Mr. Tim Fenn

Absolutely. I support it 100%. It is a complex area because there are issues around people are leaving cash on a table and how that is managed. Employers do not have any hand, act, or part in that and there is a structure where employees have to look after themselves. It is easier when somebody leaves a gratuity or tip electronically or as part of the bill. The employer then has to absolutely pass all of those tips straight on to their employees. We have absolutely no issue with that and we welcome the new legislation and fully support it.

I thank Deputy Mythen for his questions. I will now go back to Senator Cassells, who has joined us again. I welcome Senator Carrigy as well.

I welcome all the witnesses here today to discuss, as I said last night during the debate on tourism with the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, one of the most significant industries in our economy. I made the point that 23 years ago, when I was first elected to the council, one of my first roles within the local authority was as a director of Meath Tourism. The then CEO of Meath Tourism, Ms Bríd O’Connell, always pressed the point for a need for further investment in the tourism sector, in terms of what was going to resonate for economic value, beyond Dublin and Kerry and into places such as Meath and other counties. It is great to see that come to fruition over two decades of investment.

On that point, I might start with Mr. McGowan, if that is okay. I know Mr. McGowan as an exemplary proprietor of one of the finest hotel and restaurants in the north east, Scholars. I am honoured to have eaten there on several occasions. As Mr. McGowan’s role as president of the RAI, can he give us a flavour of real-life examples? We have heard the statistics from the witnesses here today so far. In terms of the members Mr. McGowan is dealing with, how is it impacting them? We have heard of the skills shortage but how is it really having an impact on restaurants? Is it a case that restaurants are obliged to close on a number of nights during the week? What is the impact on turnover? How prevalent is it? Is it geographical or is it hitting members across the country? Mr. McGowan might just give us a flavour of that quickly.

Mr. Mark McGowan

To be frank, it is very difficult and stressful as a business owner at the minute. In my day-to-day life, I work and have a family and two kids. I find myself working 60 to 70 hours a week on any given week. It is quite difficult. That reflects the entire industry in terms of independent business owners with families. It is very difficult. It is tough mentally for all of our business owners.

On the ground, we are being squeezed left, right and centre. I spoke earlier on about how many of our members heading upwards towards 40% labour costs. If you were in college back in the day and were told your labour cost was going to be 40%, there is no way, as a business owner, you would want to go into the industry to begin with. It is very difficult. In addition, there is the rise in energy costs and the costs of doing business in general. Obviously, the situation in Ukraine is devastating. It is increasing the cost of supply. We are having massive issues in terms of rising prices of meat – chicken, in particular - which comes down to the price of feed. It is causing all kinds of problems. We are being squeezed left, right and centre. It is extremely difficult. Most businesses are considering closing one or perhaps two days per week simply to facilitate time off, both for their staff and for themselves and their own mental health, which is obviously a huge issue at the moment.

To be fair, operating costs are hitting every sector, as Mr. Cummins has pointed out. I note the industry has come through two particularly difficult years. In terms of operating costs and optimism levels among members for the period and summer ahead, what is the feeling from the people to whom Mr. McGowan is speaking?

Mr. Mark McGowan

Right now, it is quite bleak. We are very concerned about rising energy costs, in particular, the price of gas and everything that needs to run a business such a hotel, like mine. All the costs have been exacerbated We are very concerned about the future. Most people are trying to just keep their head above water until summer when they will see if there is an increase in business. Obviously, then there is a concern of being able to staff if when the summer comes along. If we do not have the staff to take on the guests and customers into our restaurants, we will have an awful time.

On that point, I want to put that point to Mr. Cummins as well. He talked about a targeted approach here, similar to what was done by the Canadians, and to do that in reverse of the Mediterranean. How quickly can that be turned around in realistic timeframes?

Mr. Adrian Cummins

We could turn that around within two to three weeks if there is willingness for the State to support us. We need to go to a collaborative approach with industry, the State and State agencies involved to promote Ireland. It should be a collaborate approach with other sectors as well, not just in hospitality, because-----

Is there a collaborative approach between our guests' sector, which comprises restaurants and food outlets, and the Irish Hotels Federation? Mr. Fenn indicated there is no way the domestic market will fill the jobs shortage this year.

Mr. Adrian Cummins

We have started the conversation with the careers oversight group. As I said, it is not funded and that needs to happen. We need to support these businesses in going abroad. Funding was given to tourism businesses to market Ireland in order that tourism would come in. Some sort of a fund is needed to help businesses go overseas and attract labour into Ireland, as we did in the 1990s for construction, hospitality and other sectors. We need a co-ordinated, targeted approach. We have one already for the healthcare sector, for which we have targeted the Philippines and other countries in south-east Asia to attract qualified staff into Ireland to work with permits in hospitals. We should and can do that for other sectors, including hospitality and tourism.

The Minister spoke last night about this issue of skills shortages. She talked about the work done by Fáilte Ireland and mentioned the need to provide support to the industry to address the immediate labour and skills supply challenges, which will be critical to the short-term recovery of the sector. Does Mr. Cummins believe she was talking about his sector?

Mr. Adrian Cummins

No. This goes back to my original point. Pubs and restaurants are vital here. Restaurants employ about 65,000 to 70,000 people, while pubs employ about 50,000 of the 220,0000 or 230,000 who were working in tourism and hospitality before Covid. We are a vital cog in this and there needs to be some sort of joining of the remits in order that we will all be treated equally in future. It is all about equality and about all these businesses being treated equally in the area of Government policy.

We are in the first week of April and the main season will kick off next month. If there is no way the domestic market will be able to fill the jobs shortages this year, will standards within the hotel sector suffer?

Mr. Tim Fenn

Capacity might be a challenge, but all day long and every day, people in our industry work to provide experiences-----

I do not doubt that for a moment and I was not implying otherwise. Ultimately, we have had a couple of very tough years and businesses will try to maximise their hotel rooms to recover.

Mr. Tim Fenn

There have been challenges all along and the Senator identified some new ones. As for whether people are optimistic, pessimistic or whatever, if Covid had not happened and we were nonetheless facing what we are facing now, people would be in shock. Given we have come out of the shock of Covid, this is just another diversion. People are in a mindset of resilience and recognise they will have to work harder to get through this. We are saying there will be ways in which we can take on more people, such as some of the people who did not work last summer, students and so on. Perhaps it will include transition year students, fifth year students and that kind of thing. There will be sources for people, but we cannot replace all the skills shortages from the Irish market, which is why the permit system is critical and has to be fixed. In that regard, we cannot wait six, eight or ten weeks to find out it will take a further six, eight or 20 weeks to get people. They will not be coming in until October at best, and that is just not going to work.

I echo Mr. Fenn's comments.

What is the state of play in respect of national bookings for the coming summer? The Minister stated last night that she was confident we will return to pre-Covid, 2019 summer levels. I spoke to Senator Casey, who is the managing director of the Glendalough Hotel, on my way to this meeting. He stated we will be lucky to get over the 60% mark. Mr. Kelly might give an assessment of the outlook for the industry.

Mr. Paul Kelly

Before I come to that, I might return to the Senator's earlier point. We fully agree with what the representatives of the industry associations are saying with regard to the need to bring in international workers as well as Irish ones. It is important we do not waste the industry's time or taxpayers' money trying to recruit from markets from which we will not be successful in getting people to come here and stay here, as opposed to getting people for just a short period who will then go home. We have extensive research to carry out, therefore. We could not start this work until the impact of Covid-----

Mr. Cummins suggested the Mediterranean market, for example, could be targeted. Would Fáilte Ireland support that?

Mr. Paul Kelly

We do not have evidence at this point to have confidence to say we would be successful in any one of those markets. We need to ensure that when we invest that money and go out to those markets, we will go out to markets that work. The answer may be Spain, for example, but not Portugal, or vice versa, or it may be Greece or Croatia. The honest answer at this time is that we do not know. We hear different things from different people and different anecdotal evidence. We need to do the right work. Just as when Ireland markets itself internationally, we do not take a scattergun approach and spread our money all over the place. We go where we know we could have the greatest impact in bringing in international visitors. We need to apply the same rigour to getting insights and conducting research such that when we go out to try to bring in workers, we will do so from the right markets whereby we will be able to entice them in and they will be able to stay and have rewarding careers here. Obviously, that applies to countries within the EU, where there is not a requirement for work permits. The core issue relating to work permits, as the representatives from that industry highlighted, concerns the speed at which they can be processed to allow people to be brought in.

To return to the Senator's question about the summer season, there are different sources of data regarding what way it is going to go. There is going to be a good rebound in international tourism this year. Summer air access will climb to about 93% of what it was in 2019, which will be a phenomenal recovery. The work the Government did in response to the aviation task force, building and supporting the aviation industry to get that air access back up, deserves great credit. We, along with our colleagues in Tourism Ireland and the industry, are all doing our respective bits to bring in international visitors. Much of this depends on which period of the summer we are talking about. The average for the full year may be 60% of the figure in 2019, but we have lost the first quarter of the year, so it will equate to between 80% and 90% over the summer.

The year needs to be broken down into quarters rather than taken as a whole.

Mr. Paul Kelly

Yes. In terms of overseas visitors, the latest projections suggest the figure might be 60% over the full year. As the Minister said, when we get to quarter 3, that could be closer to 100%. Deputy Griffin mentioned the events in Ukraine. First and foremost, obviously, there is a significant humanitarian crisis and Ireland needs to do what it can to support and help. Nevertheless, about 4,000 hotel bedrooms are currently housing Ukrainian refugees. Of course, as the number of refugees increases, the number who will need to be accommodated will get an awful lot larger. If core tourism accommodation stock, such as hotel bedrooms, is taken out of the system, there will be significant knock-on impacts elsewhere. For every euro a visitor spends on accommodation, he or she will spend €2.50 in other parts of the economy, whether going to restaurants, pubs or visitor attractions, using transport and so on. If a significant volume of tourism accommodation stock comes out of the market over the summer, that will limit our ability to recover and make things difficult for pubs, restaurants, activity providers and visitor attractions that rely on those visitors. If potential visitors cannot get a bed, they will not come.

I think that was one of the most significant contributions during the meeting. This morning was a very emotional one in the Chamber. We are sitting in the cold light of day of statistical analysis in this committee room. The Taoiseach and other political leaders spoke earlier about doing everything to respond in that humanitarian effort, and rightly so, but we are talking about an industry that is equally important in terms of our economic and cultural value.

What would the industry say to the Government in terms of making sure those people who find themselves in a humanitarian crisis are accommodated in a very short space of time if the Government is turning to hotels to make sure they are accommodated?

Mr. Paul Kelly

Fáilte Ireland has been working closely with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to help find immediate emergency accommodation. The hotel sector, particularly the IHF and its members, has stood up very well in this regard and has been very supportive and reasonable in terms of its engagement in the emergency in which we find ourselves with the refugees from Ukraine. That is okay for a few weeks but we would say that tourist accommodation for refugees is not good for either refugees or tourism.

What percentage does the figure of 4,000 represent in terms of overall hotel bed accommodation in the country?

Mr. Paul Kelly

We are touching about 5% of the stock at the moment.

In respect of getting back to that 93% for this summer, people will be making bookings and they need certainty. A report broke last night that major hotels such as the Citywest Hotel could be designated for accommodation. What will that do in terms of the industry's ability to market the country with certainty for the summer market?

Mr. Paul Kelly

It is still very early to say but we are hearing stories of tour operators saying they are losing their allocation of bed spaces etc. The damage to long-term reputation and brand is something that will need to be managed. It depends on the scale of it. As much as work as can be done to find more suitable long-term - and when I say "long-term", I mean months not years - accommodation to allow the totality of the tourism economy to recover would be welcome because if tourists cannot get a bed, they will not be able to eat in a restaurant or visit a visitor attraction.

I welcome our witnesses. I have been involved with tourism in County Longford for over ten years. I compliment Paddy Mathews and Grainne Cornally in the Ireland's Hidden Heartlands team. They do excellent work and are very good to work with from our point of view in promoting our county.

Mr. Kelly mentioned the numbers projected for this summer. I was looking at passenger figures for February 2022 compared to 2020. They are running at around 65% of the passenger numbers coming into the country when you compare February 2022 and February 2020. Is Mr. Kelly optimistic that we will hit those higher figures in the summer?

Mr. Paul Kelly

In terms of January and February, we were still very much in the grip of Omicron globally and other economies had not fully opened. We are seeing much later booking patterns than we would normally see coming through. I would not look to the performance of quarter 1 as an indicator of what we will see later in the year. All of the feedback we are getting is that things will pick up from late quarter 2 into quarters 3 and 4.

As public representatives dealing with passports, it seems as though everybody is looking to get out of the country. A lot of the research by Fáilte Ireland shows that there are significant numbers. Should we have a concentrated marketing campaign? I know Fáilte Ireland had a staycation campaign last year. Should we look at rolling this out when people are making decisions to persuade them to stay in Ireland this summer and leave going abroad until 2023? If Fáilte Ireland has a programme like this, when is it due to start because it needs to be out there now when people are making decisions?

Mr. Paul Kelly

We have the largest ever domestic marketing programme, which kicked off on 1 January. It includes new sponsorship of RTÉ weather, which gives us a huge reach into homes, and a multimedia campaign . The Minister and Government gave us significant extra funding for domestic marketing for this year. That campaign is up and running and based on the responses we are seeing, it is going very well. According to industry feedback, the double bank holiday relating to St. Patrick's Day was really good for domestic tourism. We got lots of positive feedback about people being very busy across that and things looking good for Easter. Yes, an awful lot of people are going abroad but we are driving as hard as we can to get those extra domestic breaks - those short breaks in Ireland - in addition to overseas holidays.

With regard to the lack of staff across the sector, I know the team in Center Parcs in my county, which is a huge asset from an employment perspective. Like everyone else, it is suffering with regard to getting staff. Spain seems to be a market where there are people qualified within certain fields who are willing to come to Ireland. However, the problem is that they cannot find accommodation. This is semi-linked to tourism with regard to the significant number of premises rented out through Airbnb rather than being available to rent. Is there something that could be looked at? Could a scheme be introduced? Something needs to be examined at Government level to ensure that if people are willing to come to the country and work in the industry, some sort of accommodation level would be available. Senator Lombard carried out a study in his county of Cork and discovered that only four properties were available on Daft whereas hundreds were available on Airbnb. How does Mr. Kelly feel Airbnb should be addressed?

Mr. Paul Kelly

We are picking that up all across the country. The national housing crisis is a real challenge for staffing in tourism. We are hearing the same thing as that referred to by the Senator, namely, that if you bring workers in, they must have somewhere affordable to live. It is certainly an issue. The Government's Housing for All programme has a huge range of actions and everyone in the industry would like to see them all implemented as soon as possible in order that housing becomes more available and affordable.

It is important to say that the likes of Airbnb are just distribution platforms. We encourage all tourist accommodation to register with us. They are not required to do so but there is such a proposal in Housing for All. This proposal requires legislation to be enacted to require all tourist accommodation to register with the Government through Fáilte Ireland. We support that but it requires legislation to make that happen. That would at least be a very important first step in terms of bringing that part of the economy into a more regulated position. I know various other initiatives in Housing for All will look to work on that as well.

Does the hotel sector think this legislation needs to a priority with regard to tourist accommodation?

Mr. Tim Fenn

It is a priority. Everything that happens in terms of tourism must be sustainable. In any destination, there must be a balance between the people who work and live in a destination and those who visit it.

That means that conflicting interests have to be managed. We have seen right across the world the problem that short-term rentals have created for people who live in communities in long-term rental markets and we would certainly say this legislation is long overdue.

Ms Amy Sweetman

Coming back to the Senator's point, the stay and spend scheme, which was originally initiated as a tax credit during Covid, is something that should be activated now more than ever in real time, not only for the recovery post-Covid but because of inflation, and especially when we are looking at 5% of the hotel market possibly being taken out of the mix because of the Ukrainian crisis. There are people who are more likely perhaps to visit caravan sites, bed and breakfast accommodation etc. if they staycation. It is also a more sustainable alternative for the domestic market. It is something the Department should explore reactivating for the season to come.

I have a couple of points. In regard to skills shortages, would there be merit in a hospitality centre of excellence being developed somewhere in the country for chefs and so forth? We have seen the shortages. We would have one particular area and develop it.

Mr. Adrian Cummins

We would see a cluster of training centres in certain parts of the country while in other parts of the country they do not have a training centre for cheffing or for hospitality. We need to make sure we have good accessibility for people who want to get into our industry and that they do not have to travel long distances, especially around apprenticeships. Apprenticeships are linked between the employer and the programme itself. A person spends three days in the restaurant or hotel and two days in college. That training centre needs to be accessible to them.

With the chef de partie programme, entry level is commis chef and there is chef de partie and sous chef. Chef de partie is predominantly down in the Munster region and not really in the west, the midlands of even in Dublin. We need to make sure we have a regional spread of training centres.

On the centre of excellence, I take the point. There is an opportunity for one of the training colleges to become like what Denmark has done in gastronomy around Noma. They have a centre of excellence within Copenhagen that put that country on the map for food. In San Sebastian in Spain, around culinary experience, there is another centre of excellence around food as well. There is merit in what the Senator is saying.

I said this yesterday, when the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin, was in the Seanad and it should be taken on board by Government. The Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Varadkar, supported the issue of a 9% VAT rate. It is important the Government should extend that into 2023, give the entire industry a shot in the arm and make sure that, if the projections do not work out, all our accommodation base and restaurants will be there fighting fit for 2023.

There was mention earlier of representation on the board. There is this issue that Fáilte Ireland looks after tourism whereas I think it should be tourism and hospitality because they are completely interlinked. I even think the Department's name should be changed to tourism and hospitality. It was mentioned earlier there are a number positions on the board. As I stated to the Minister, Deputy Martin, yesterday evening, it is very important there is a person representing either the pub or the restaurant industry on the board. I note is it open at present for nominations to that, but it is important there would be a representative from that industry on the board of Fáilte Ireland and that we are all working together and singing from the one hymn sheet going forward. Maybe they will not make a comment on that here but I think it is important that would happen.

I am not a full member of the committee but I am grateful to get an opportunity to speak to our guests today. I know most of them.

It is incredible what Fáilte Ireland is doing, particularly in my area with the Hidden Heartlands and with Mr. Paddy Mathews and all the team. We were left behind for way too long but that, I am glad to report, is changing rapidly. The amount of investment and development and the whole Hidden Heartlands project for the Roscommon-Galway region is fascinating. In my own town, the Famine museum and the incredible extension going on there worth €5.5 million will increase the tourism population into our town. That type of tourism may not suffer as much. There was Covid and now the war. At present, people are really down. We are all down. If there is any sign of a settlement of that war, every one of us will feel that extra energy to go again and tourism will be huge. I would be quite optimistic because the budget for tourism this year is quite good. It is well increased.

The real issue I want to talk about here, which has been mentioned by several members, is staff. It is no exaggeration to say that, over the past weekend at home, I was approached by four different people from hotels and restaurants. I was approached by one lady who runs a very successful family hotel which, unfortunately, has been closing one or two days a week because of staff issues. Unfortunately, one chef was not able to turn up to help the other chefs recently and she spent 14.5 hours without a break cooking, helping the chefs. It was an enormous strain, she told me. She could not keep it up. They have quite a young family. People do not realise the stress being caused to people in hotels and family-run restaurant businesses. There are many chefs who worked in the Army or in other institutions who are semi-retired, and some of them would come back. They would not go into full-time work but they would do 20 or 30 hours a week. They would be really good people. Maybe Mr. McGowan and Ms Sweetman will say this is not workable but what I am saying is we should try to get those people into some sort of crash course. They would be fantastic people. They would put their shoulders to the wheel. I believe it is worth targeting them. We need to do something like that because there are many people in restaurants and hotels in trouble and, to be quite honest, they are completely deflated at this stage. It strikes me more every week when I go back to my base in Roscommon and more people are coming to meet me about this problem.

This question may already have been answered. How much of our budget is going towards staycationing this year? Will there be a big campaign on staycationing?

Hillwalking has become very popular, especially in my area. Slieve Bawn, beside Strokestown, has become very popular. They put a wind farm there a couple of years ago and everybody went silly about it, but now they have opened up all the history of it and the roadways of it and there are thousands upon thousands walking it. How much money will go into promoting that this year?

The staff question is the real one. I would like to hear their comments. Would it be possible to follow-up on that particular issue of staff who are definitely available and who probably would say "No" now because they do not want to go into a full week's work but who could fill important gaps in the industry?

Mr. Mark McGowan

Absolutely, there is an opportunity for some past employees within establishments to come back. That is what is happening in many places at present. Obviously, there are concerns. The intensity of service can be something we need to look at as well, for instance, a really busy Saturday night. When you get down to brass tacks, will the individual be able for that environment? However, there are certain opportunities at quieter periods of the day that might be able to work in that regard.

Ms Denyse Campbell

I will come in on that point. I thank the Senator and it is lovely to see him. From a hospitality and hotel point of view, I totally agree with broadening our base and considering how we attract people into the industry. That is hugely important. For my hotel, I have engaged with Age Friendly Ireland. We did it last year as a sales incentive but we are now looking at it in the other way. We have noticed that in our local area in Swords, there are many people who would be interested in coming back to work, as the Senator has suggested. We have advertised part-time roles, such as for a switchboard operator for a four-hour shift three days a week, as opposed to the full-time shifts we talked about earlier. We have also engaged with Fingal County Council on the matter. It has resources in its offices to help. We are looking at this matter from a federation point of view. We are running a trial in one hotel at the moment to see how it goes.

I should, of course, have wished Ms Campbell well.

Ms Denyse Campbell

Thank you very much.

Ms Campbell is a friend and neighbour. How can we push this forward for her? Many people out there could help. How can we push this out to the public?

Ms Denyse Campbell

Local authorities have resources on site. It is a matter of investigating those. I feel there is an enormous opportunity for hospitality. I understand Mr. McGowan's point that a busy work environment might be a little pressurised but there are other roles they could play. They would make fantastic ambassadors for our industry. It is about having positive ambassadors.

Mr. Paul Kelly

Fáilte Ireland has already invested, and is investing significantly more, in campaigns promoting careers and back-to-work opportunities to try to ensure everyone is aware of those opportunities and the quality of work available in the sector. There is significant State support in that regard.

Perhaps social media and local media could be used. I was involved with local media before I came into the Oireachtas. Perhaps we can use special programming on those media. People would tune in and find out about the opportunities. They are not informed at the moment. Ms Campbell is suggesting we go to the local authorities to push that.

Ms Denyse Campbell

That is absolutely the case.

I am in support of the retention of the 9% VAT rate. That is vital. On a positive note, if the situation in Ukraine improves, I think we will take off like a rocket and tourism will do well. Although we are all at a low point at the moment, I am quite optimistic for the future. Communities in Roscommon are enthused and excited about these new developments and the Hidden Heartlands scheme. They are all for its promotion and are talking about it. We see our place being expanded, which did not happen in the past. I hope things will take off and will be good.

I have a question for Mr. Kelly. Fáilte Ireland is running a scheme. I was reading a note of the Minister's which contained an invitation for projects. The name of the scheme escapes me but Westport House was included.

Mr. Paul Kelly

The scheme is called Platforms for Growth.

Will that scheme be run again in the coming years? I know Fáilte Ireland received a significant number of applications for good-quality projects. Is there going to be an opportunity for more applications under that scheme?

Mr. Paul Kelly

The national development plan has been revised and we are still in discussions with the Department about that. We do not have full clarity on the matter but there seem to be significantly more challenges in terms of the amount of capital funding that will be available for tourism development. Long-term capital projects, developments such as the National Famine Museum at Strokestown House to which Senator Murphy referred and which will open this year, and the one Senator Carrigy referred to in Westport House, are essential to continue to develop the quality of offering we have in Ireland. They rely on an ongoing level of capital funding. The return on investment to the State and to the Exchequer on those projects is phenomenal. They all involve significant returns. We do not do anything that does not deliver a significant return on investment. Those returns include economic returns, tax returns and the creation of jobs etc. They are important. We still do not have clarity around the long-term funding. Capital projects and pipelines cannot be turned on and off. One needs to know now how much will be available to spend in three, four and five years' time. We signed off on the investment for Westport House last year but the big investment in that regard will not begin until next year because it takes that long to get through the planning process and do all the design work etc. As these things take a long time, it is important for the long-term development of tourism that the capital pipeline is retained. It has been good in recent years but that may be challenged under the revised national development plan. We are still working with the Department to try to get clarity. It is important that the level of capital investment by the Government remains in place for tourism on a basis that can be planned for. We need to know what is going to be there in 2026, 2027 and 2028. We need to know that now in order that we can keep bringing those projects on stream. That is very important.

We ran our biggest trade event, Meitheal, in Killarney last week. We brought in 200 overseas buyers to meet 400 representatives of Irish industry. We discover things every time we engage with those buyers and new initiatives, such as those in Westport House, the National Famine Museum in Strokestown Park, new greenways and the new blueway we launched yesterday in Meath, are important to keep that long-term pipeline coming along. We desperately need an ongoing capital commitment from Government to keep bringing those initiatives along.

May I make one very brief point?

It will have to be very brief.

This is important.

I think there is competition going on here.

I am only joking.

This is an important point. There is a new training school in Castlerea, County Roscommon, called An Chistin. It received €2 million in Government funding, which is significant. It is training people at the moment. I note that.

I thank Senator Murphy for his contribution.

It has finally come around to my turn. We have gone through a lot at this stage and I do not want to go over what has already been said. I thank Fáilte Ireland, and Mr. Kelly in particular, for the work it has done around the rebranding piece. Cavan has finally been brought into the Hidden Heartlands scheme. There was a concern about how the scheme had been branded until now and I think the inclusion of Cavan is a very positive move for my county and constituency. I welcome that, and thank Mr. Kelly for his briefings in that regard, which were helpful and useful.

As our guests have all touched on, the most important thing is that we get some actions in response to the problems they have presented to us. I am going to make a few suggestions for the committee on the basis of what our guests have said. We cannot cover everything but I am going to try, and our guests can let me know if they feel there are things that are being missed out and should be included. I am going to suggest writing to the various Departments and Ministers based on the issues our guests have brought up at this meeting. From the point of view of the Restaurants Association of Ireland, it is clear that a recruitment drive in the European Union and elsewhere is necessary. Perhaps we should include in a letter to the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin, a call for her to endorse that and make it happen.

Ms Sweetman mentioned the idea of another stay and spend scheme. Perhaps as part of our letter to the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, we could encourage her to reintroduce that scheme and use it as an opportunity to encourage people to stay and spend in Ireland this summer. There is an enticement for people to travel to sunnier places, particularly bearing in mind the past two summers, but perhaps that is something we could ask the Minister to look at.

The committee should also write to the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, about personal public service, PPS, numbers. The lack of PPS numbers for staff will be a breaking point for hiring. That is something at which the committee should look.

The issue of work permits has come up time and time again in all the presentations and discussions today. As that issue falls under the remit of the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Varadkar, the committee should also write to him and suggest that we consider models whereby work permit applications can be turned around in six weeks.

This is the preferred scenario and where we want to see that piece at. Do the witnesses agree? Is that appropriate? Yes.

Mr. Fenn talked about identifying future skills needs and ring-fencing a fund for that purpose. Will he expand on that?

Mr. Tim Fenn

Yes, we can send the committee a note on that.

That would be helpful

Mr. Tim Fenn

In 2014, a report was done by the expert group on future skills needs. We understand that kind of work is now being done through SOLAS but we think it is important to do a stocktake of where we are, where we are going and what we will need. That will help Government to channel the funds and have objective research on where the funds should go to make sure there is efficiency in whatever we are at. There is €1 billion in the National Training Fund and we suggest some of that be used in this crisis to front-load some of the initiatives we have spoken about.

Would that all come under the Minister, Deputy Harris's, Department? The SOLAS piece definitely would.

Mr. Tim Fenn

Yes, SOLAS would.

Okay. On foot of what I have just said, I will bring in Mr. McGowan because he is walking the walk as well as talking the talk in the sense that it sounds crippling for people in his position working 70 hours per week and trying to do everything. What three actions could the Government take tomorrow morning to make the impossible possible for what he is trying to achieve?

Mr. Mark McGowan

Consideration has to be given to the owners and what is happening there. We are constantly talking about skills shortages but restaurant and café owners across the country need more support. Lowering the cost of doing business is very important to us. We talked about recruitment fairs earlier. The likes of expanding onto the Continent, finding ways to bring more people in and anything that would lower the recruitment burden on business would be a significant help.

We will cover that in our letter to the Minister, Deputy Martin. Is there anything else?

Mr. Mark McGowan

Mr. Cummins might have something.

Mr. Adrian Cummins

It is important that we look at the collaboration approach between hospitality and tourism. We need to get rid of the silo effect and have a more collaborative approach. The Minister, Deputy Martin, needs to bring the pub and restaurant sector in to her Department as soon as possible so we can move forward for the betterment of the entire industry.

Mr. Tim Fenn

It is difficult to overemphasise the importance of the issue around permits at this stage. That really has to-----

That came through loud and clear.

Mr. Tim Fenn

That is at the top of the tree. It has to be fixed. There is no reason for it to be as complex as it is and take so much time. We are also working on chefs, commis chefs, apprenticeships, sous chefs and all the rest of it. We are working with the ETBs, the TUs and SOLAS to do the best we can with what is available in the Irish market. The permits are the key part of where we need to be. That needs to be fixed.

Ms Denyse Campbell

In the short term, it would be beneficial if the current permit applications from hospitality businesses were prioritised. That would help us have staff coming in for the season.

Will Ms Campbell repeat that, please?

Ms Denyse Campbell

The permits that have been applied for should be prioritised by the Department.

A couple of clear actions have been identified by the witnesses. We will write to the various Ministers following on from the meeting and ask them to expedite measures to address those challenges facing the industry that could be addressed right here right now to save the summer in terms of staffing, recruitment and all of that. Can I get agreement from my colleagues to write all those letters?

I do not know if all the members are present. Maybe we could agree to write to the Minister at the next meeting, among the items to raise. Today's primary issue was staff shortages, pay and conditions for workers, etc. Perhaps when we have a full team we can agree on writing the letter. I suggested we write to the Minister to ask her about the difficulty with the permits. Perhaps we can agree on what issues we want to flag with the various Ministers, particularly in light of the issues flagged in relation to what would encourage workers and help deal with the chronic shortage in the tourism and hospitality sector. Much of that comes down to, as we know from our engagement with unions, etc., pay and conditions. That has to be a priority.

An extension for the 9% VAT rate was among the proposals we put forward for the industry last year. It has to be a priority to extend that into 2023.

I come back to the issue of a representative on the board of Fáilte Ireland. It is important that someone from hospitality is on that board. It was mentioned that the Department has to take on board that hospitality and tourism are together and that needs to be included in the sectors the Department looks after. I ask that that be looked on favourably.

We will include that among the points we make to the Minister, Deputy Martin, in our correspondence to her.

I am sure the witnesses are all exhausted but they have been inspiring and heartfelt in their presentations and we appreciate the effort that goes into that and the giving of their time to be here. We know they are all busy people. Go raibh míle, míle maith agaibh to my colleagues. The joint committee will next meet in private via Microsoft Teams at 11.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 27 April. Slán gach duine.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.47 p.m. sine die.
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