The purpose of the meeting is to discuss contemporary Irish music, supporting the industry and nurturing new emerging talent. I welcome Mr. Michael O'Keeffe, chief executive officer, and Ms Niamh Ní Bhroin, Broadcasting Authority of Ireland; Mr. Keith Donald, chairman, Mr. Victor Finn, chief executive officer, Irish Music Rights Organisation; Ms Sinéad Troy, general manager, Ms Angela Dorgan and Mr. Alan Cullivan, Irish Association of Songwriters, Composers and Authors; Ms Jane Bolton, manager, Claddagh Records; Mr John Cook, director, Tara Records; and musicians Mr. Mick Broderick and Mr. Danny McCarthy
Contemporary Irish Music: Discussion
Mr. Keith Donald
Is it possible to correct that list? Two delegates are listed as being under the banner of IASCA but are actually not. Ms Angela Dorgan is chief executive officer of First Music Contact.
I apologise.
Mr. Alan Cullivan
I am chairman of the Music Managers' Forum of Ireland.
I thank the delegates. I recognise many delegates from a previous meeting. We all have the same agenda. We have had requests from many of the delegates, in particular Mr. McCarthy, who has been trying to get in here for a long time. It is a subject with which the committee has been dealing in regard to the promotion of Irish artists and playing their music on our radio stations. We heard Mr. McCarthy and Mr. Broderick this morning. We are anxious to hear the delegates. We will try to organise the meeting as best we can to ensure that everybody has a chance to articulate their views. I ask the delegates to be as brief as possible. They will have a chance to interact with the members who are very interested in this subject.
By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the joint committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members of the committee have absolute privilege, however, they are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
The committee today launched a document on the 20 year plan for the Irish language; therefore, I apologise for any delay in starting the meeting. I hope we can get a thorough discussion going.
Will Mr. O'Keeffe be the only person speaking on behalf of the BAI?
Mr. Michael O’Keeffe
Yes, but my colleague, Ms Niamh Ní Bhroin, will answer some questions members may have.
Yes, during the question and answer sessions that will follow. In regard to Mr. Keith Donald and Mr. Victor Finn, will it be Mr. Keith Donald who will make the presentation?
Mr. Keith Donald
I will commence the presentation and then hand over to Mr. Victor Finn.
I was hoping one person would make the presentation but if the delegates are doing a double act, I ask them to allow for that in terms of being brief. I invite Mr. Michael O'Keeffe to make his presentation.
Mr. Michael O’Keeffe
I am delighted to have been asked to make this presentation on behalf of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI. I would like to introduce my colleague, Niamh Ní Bhroin. We will both be happy to respond to any questions members may have.
I will focus my presentation on three areas, first, the legislative requirements under which we operate; second, the contractual obligations we have for individual radio stations; and third, I will comment on the compliance record of the radio sector with which we deal. The first and important point to make on the legislative requirements is that there are no specific statutory obligations within the objectives of the BAI under the heading of contemporary music. There are a number of objectives which have some relevance to the topic. One of the objectives we have relates to the number and categories of broadcasting services that best serve the needs of the people of Ireland, bearing in mind their languages, traditions, ethical and cultural diversity. That is relevant to this topic. Second, there is a requirement that the authority, in its policies, will stimulate the provision of high quality, diverse and innovative programming by commercial, community and public broadcasters and independent producers. There is also of relevance to this topic.
These objectives are given some added effect to some extent in section 66 of the Broadcasting Act, which addresses the criteria we consider in determining the most suitable applicant for a sound broadcasting licence. It is in this respect that we become particularly involved in Irish music. I draw members' attention to section 66(2)(e) of the Act, which is particularly relevant in this context. It refers to “the extent to which the applicant will create within the proposed broadcasting service new opportunities for talent in music, drama and entertainment and in particular in respect of Irish culture”. In the guide to submissions for applicants for licences, we request applicants to set out their proposals in respect of Irish music. We include in that their definition of what they believe constitutes Irish music and the percentage of music that will be played — if they are successful in the licence application process — on each station. We do not set a quota as such but invite an applicant to indicate how he or she will serve and what commitments he or she will bring in this respect. In that section of the guide, we also request applicants to provide details of how the proposed service will create new opportunities for Irish talent. That is the legislative background. I emphasise that there is nothing specific laid down but we use a number of sections which give effect to an Irish music policy among broadcasters.
Moving on to the contractual obligations, once the application process is completed and the successful applicant, whoever he or she may be, selected, a contract is drawn up with each successful applicant and it includes the incorporation of all commitments made in the licensing process. That is an important point. Specifically with relevance to the topic we are discussing, any commitments made in the application in respect of Irish music are included in the programme policy statement of each contractor and monitoring of that commitment is subsequently undertaken to ensure compliance with the terms therein.
As we do not set out a specific percentage or quota in terms of Irish music, and I will explain the reason for that, the programme policy statement commitments can vary from service to service. For instance, in the case of certain stations that would have a broader base of listeners and might combine an urban and rural demographic, a higher percentage of Irish music may be likely to be played on these services. Lesser percentages are generally found on the more urban music driven services. The age demographic of the service is an important factor. For example, a station in Dublin such as Phantom FM, which has a younger age demographic and a greater catalogue of material to call upon, may have a higher percentage commitment than an older music format such as 4FM, which not only serves Dublin but the broader multi-city region.
Another factor to take into account is definitions, which may also vary. What does an applicant mean by "Irish music"? There is a range of definitions which are acceptable and permitted in that regard. This is an important point on which I would place an emphasis. This relates back to a decision of the European Commission in the mid 1990s which prohibited categorisation and-or the introduction of quotas by nationality. That is an important point. We could not set a quota saying that a certain per cent on an Irish radio station must be by Irish artists. It was made very clear to us that was not permissible under the European definition.
Interestingly enough, it would have permitted us to introduce a quota for Irish language because there is a quota for French language in France in terms of what must be played on radio there but not in terms of the nationality of the artist. That is an important point because it was an influencing factor in terms of a determination we would have made at the time.
Changes in contracts can only be implemented with the prior written approval of the authority. The fear was that somebody would promise something in an application process but when on air would not deliver that. One cannot make changes without authority approval. I emphasise that to date there have been very few requests for any changes. It would be fair to say the authority would be unlikely to look favourably on such requests.
Details of the programme policy statements and obligations are available from the BAI. I would be happy to give members a flavour of the various commitments during the questions and answers session. Some stations have commitments to Irish music up to 30% and even beyond. Those who go for a lesser percentage would be in the region of 15% to 20%. That is the kind of range about which we are talking in terms of what stations deliver.
The final element on which I wish to touch and on which I am happy to answer any questions is the compliance record of contractors. We have a number of mechanisms to ensure compliance with contractual obligations. We have programme monitoring, annual performance reviews of all radio stations and a complaints mechanism run by the compliance committee.
In the case of programme monitoring, we take a sample of a week's programming. We pick a radio station, whether Radio Kerry, Midwest Radio or otherwise, on a random basis. As with the Lord, one never knows the time one will be called. We monitor the content, in particular the content vis-à-vis the station’s obligations. The Irish music content is checked in the monitoring undertaken and it is checked against the commitments given.
We do an annual performance review of each station. There is a self-assessment dimension to that. We draw up a form which the station completes. It details how it has achieved its various commitments in the programme policy statement. We ask it to include commentary on its adherence to the Irish music obligations. As well as the percentage, that would also involve how it brought on new Irish talent or how it provided opportunities for the development of new Irish talent or new Irish initiatives during the period in question. That is done on an annual basis with each of the stations.
The third strand is complaints which could be made by members of the public both as to the content of programme material and adherence to programming commitments. A complaint of that nature would be investigated first by the executive which would get the views of the station in question and then a determination would subsequently be made by the BAI's compliance committee. The evidence over the past number of years is that stations are generally operating in compliance with their contractual obligations in respect of Irish music. There are one or two areas where there have been weaknesses but, by and large, the vast majority are fully compliant and, in some cases, above and beyond what they are required to do.
On the complaints side, we have received no specific complaints around the adherence to the contractual obligations. From time to time we receive complaints around the general principle that there should be more Irish music. However, in terms of actual adherence to the obligations, there are few complaints. I will be happy to answer any questions or clarify any points raised.
We could easily start on questions now, but many of those here have something to say. I remind everybody that we had a discussion on some of these issues previously and brought in representatives from radio stations and others. I am sure many of those here were in the Visitors Gallery then or listened to that debate. Members felt there was unfinished business then, which is why we felt the need for this second run. We feel these voices need the opportunity to make their views known. I now call on Mr. Keith Donald, chairman of IMRO to make his presentation. I understand he will share his time with Mr. Victor Finn.
Mr. Keith Donald
I am a musician, a composer and chairman of IMRO. My first professional engagement was in 1955 when, aged ten, I played jazz on BBC radio. I have, therefore, had some time to learn about the business and environment of music, both in Ireland and internationally. Our presentation today is in two parts. I will outline the importance of music and its many roles in our society and Victor Finn, CEO of IMRO, will describe IMRO's roles and functions.
Music is important in Ireland. It has an intrinsic value that is not measurable and should not be measured. It simply is a good thing of itself. However, for the purposes of this presentation, we should, perhaps, describe some of its benefits. First, it provides employment. Employment in the music sector of the entertainment industry accounts for approximately 10,000 full-time equivalent jobs. Second, it promotes cultural tourism. An exit survey of tourists leaving Ireland after holidays reported that more than 80% of them cited music as one of the factors in their decision to holiday here. Third, it provides entertainment. Sometimes we have to remind ourselves of the positive effects music has on our national psyche.
I would now like to take members to a place where few have been. For most people it is a shed, a garage or an attic, but for a teenager in Tallaght or Tralee it is a rehearsal space. What are its benefits? First, writing and rehearsing provide a place and the time to learn how to interact positively, to learn the skills of socialisation. Creating music is an exercise in group dynamics that will, without a doubt, be of use in any workplace. Second, when people are writing, composing and rehearsing, they are involved in a problem-solving, creative experience that builds confidence in their ability to create solutions to problems in the future. Third, if young people are in a rehearsal studio, they have in effect started an apprenticeship in music. Thus they are involved in a positive learning experience and not getting into trouble elsewhere. There is a consequent saving in the areas of security, policing, court costs and many other areas. Fourth, young people involved in music gain positive respect from peers, because she or he is in a band and not in a gang. Fifth, involvement in music provides access and potential entry to other art forms. For instance, the founder of Windmill Lane, James Morris, who is also on the board of IMRO as well as being chairman of the Irish Film Board, was in a band as a young Trinity graduate. He discovered he was more interested in the visual side of things and became a film editor. A rehearsal room, therefore, can be a starting point for the process of discovering a direction that may inform a future career choice. It is access.
Music is important to Ireland in terms of its identity. Ireland is one of very few countries whose traditional music is still vibrant, with respect for tradition coexisting with progressive extensions of the tradition. In several countries, Germany, Scandinavia, North America, the Netherlands and Japan, Irish traditional music has been adopted with huge enthusiasm. Irish music was one of the main factors in the evolvement of bluegrass and country music in the USA. Ireland is also a world leader in other areas of music and Irish music is a key identifier to brand Ireland, in the same way as design is to Denmark and banking is to Switzerland. It is one of the things people immediately think of abroad if one mentions Ireland and is, therefore, one of our strengths. Perhaps we can find ways to use this and to build on it while helping our musicians, songwriters and composers and the industry they have built up over decades. No other country is in this position. Certainly, in countries of comparable size, music does not have the same validity and potential. I cannot think of a current band or musician from Denmark or Austria, Finland or Switzerland.
I will give a few examples to reinforce this point. The Chieftains were one of the first groups from anywhere in the world to tour in China. Bill Whelan walked one night from Radio City music hall to Carnegie Hall, two prime music venues in New York because his compositions were being performed in both venues. "You Raise Me Up" was performed in the White House. U2 was the top-selling act in the United States last year as well as all of their other extraordinary achievements. Louis Stewart was a member of the resident group in Ronnie Scott's for years. Some would argue this is the premier jazz venue in Europe. I refer to The Dubliners annual sell-out 30-day tour of Germany; Daniel O'Donnell filling the Royal Albert Hall; James Galway crossing over from the Berlin Philharmonic to the charts; Westlife topping the UK charts with almost every single; the great work of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann both here and abroad; Van Morrison's more than 30 albums of original music. I refer to younger artistes such as Ruth Anne Cunningham. Many of the members may have heard of her. She travels the world writing songs with very successful songwriters and has had hits in many countries. I refer also to Damien Rice, The Villagers, Cathy Davey. I could go on for an hour.
I have one final telling point. Dublin Airport departures early in the morning will almost always see a bunch of people carrying instrument cases. They will be Irish and they will be going abroad primarily to make music and to make a living and to reinforce the image of Ireland. I will hand over to Mr. Victor Finn of IMRO.
Mr. Victor Finn
IMRO is a national organisation administering the performing right in copyright music in Ireland on behalf of its songwriter and publisher members and on behalf of the international overseas societies affiliated to it. Our mission is to protect, promote and develop the collection and distribution of music royalties; to foster music creation; to promote the value of music to the creative, cultural and business communities in Ireland.
This afternoon I will concentrate on the significant role IMRO takes in fostering new music creation. In keeping with this goal, IMRO has become very proactive in encouraging the teaching, composition, recording and performance of music. In addition, we now support Irish musical activities abroad in order to provide wider opportunities for those whom we represent. In 2010, IMRO will spend almost €400,000 on developing the creation of new music and new songwriters in Ireland. Each year we sponsor a large number of song contests, music festivals, seminars, workshops, research projects and showcase performances. IMRO is now synonymous with helping to showcase emerging talent in Ireland. Events sponsored and promoted by IMRO include the IMRO showcase tour. The 19th IMRO showcase tour took place earlier this year in venues throughout the country. First hosted in 1992, Ireland's most established new band showcase has provided a live platform for scores of up and coming Irish acts during the years. Recent acts to have featured include Fight Like Apes, Declan O'Rourke, Halves and Delorentos, to name but a few. This year, IMRO received over 700 submissions for the tour. Fifty acts took part and played in venues in Dublin, Belfast, Dundalk, Derry, Kildare, Limerick and Cork, throughout March and April. IMRO has been a prime mover in the Music from Ireland initiative. We have continued partnership in this project along with First Music Contact, The Arts Council and Culture Ireland. In the past twelve months, Music from Ireland has co-ordinated international showcases and industry networking events at South by Southwest in Austin, Texas, The Great Escape in the United Kingdom, MIDEM in France, Canadian Music Week in Canada, The Wilde Oscars and CMJ in the USA. Among the Irish contingent show-cased this year included The Villagers, The Coronas, Dark Room Notes, Fighting with Wire, Julie Feeney and many more.
The Temple Bar TradFest took place in January 2010 and as part of the festivities, IMRO hosted a series of traditional music showcases and master classes provided by Eleanor McEvoy and others. IMRO sponsored the Rising Stars event in this year's Dublin City Soul Festival, designed to showcase the wide range of talented unsigned artists on the island of Ireland and from around the world. I refer to the Glasgowbury Festival. This annual music festival takes place in Draperstown, Derry each July and has long been supported by IMRO.
To promote best practice in the wider music industry and to provide public recognition for those who continually record and perform at the highest level, IMRO has established and financed numerous industry awards and contests. The IMRO live music venue of the year award took place in December 2009. Vicar Street, Dublin received the top award of the national live music venue of the year for the second year running. The prizes were awarded based on the votes of more than 6,000 IMRO members throughout Ireland. Venues are assessed on a number of criteria including general ambience, staging, sound, lighting, diversity of music, artist relations and venue promotion. We are also heavily involved in the Choice Music Prize as a sponsor. This year we inaugurated the IMRO independent radio award, won by KCLR 96 FM. It was given in recognition of its ongoing support for Irish music creators. The award was presented to John Purcell, CEO of KCLR 96 FM at the Independent Broadcasters of Ireland conference, an event also sponsored by IMRO. We continue to support many song contests, including the Glinsk, Clonmel and Tipperary peace song contests and the Sean McCarthy traditional Irish ballad competition.
IMRO also takes it role in music education seriously. We have been providing support to Songschool since its inception in 2001. The idea behind Songschool is to encourage creative expression among primary and secondary school students through songwriting, recording and performance. There is a strong focus on encouraging collaboration and participation among all students taking part in the workshops, projects and courses which take place in schools and youth clubs throughout the country. Songschool has a team of qualified and experienced instructors all of whom are IMRO members and who offer an insight into life as a professional songwriter musician and an overview of songwriting within the music business. Students are given the opportunity to write and record their own songs during the workshop and receive a special Songschool IMRO certificate of participation on completion of the course. We also organise a series of songwriting seminars throughout the year. High profile Irish writers at such events include Christy Moore and Eleanor McEvoy who have given their time and expertise to pass on their skills and experience.
I refer in brief to IMRO's music licensing and how we collect the licensing fees due to our members. IMRO issues licences to those wishing to use copyright music in public and in an on-line environment. IMRO's tariff setting policy is based on consultation with trade bodies representing the various sectors of the music-using public in Ireland, including the Licensed Vintners Association, the Vintners Federation of Ireland, the Independent Cinemas Association of Ireland, the IBI, Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, concert promoters, RTE and many more. We consult with such user groups in advance of publishing tariffs such that we have a full understanding of the business models of the various sectors using copyright music in public. Under the terms of the Copyright and Related Rights Act 2000, IMRO as a licensing body is obliged to publish all new or revised tariffs with the Controller of Patents at least 30 days before a scheme is published. A tariff can be referred to the Controller of Patents if any user deems the terms and conditions to be unfair. The controller has the power to review the tariff and direct that revised tariffs are introduced at his discretion. This appeals process is available to any music user.
I refer to the distribution of royalties. IMRO has invested in state-of-the-art information technology systems to ensure the creators get their fair share of royalties collected. Most broadcasters now provide detailed logs of each track broadcast which allows IMRO to distribute on the basis of actual tracks. Representative samples are used where the level of royalties is very low and the strict reporting requirements cannot be met by smaller users. Such uses are distributed by reference to statistical data, obtained from sources other than the licensees and which reflect contemporary patterns of music use. These can include sales charts, transmission logs from certain broadcasters and representative, independent, third party surveys. Our distribution policy is aimed at reflecting accurately the market of music broadcast in Ireland.
To conclude it is our belief that Ireland benefits greatly from its creative talent. This should not be taken for granted. Ireland continues to attract investments in the software, hardware and pharmaceutical sectors, each of which are central to the Government's stated aim of promoting the so-called smart economy. Such enterprises require the strong foundations of intellectual property law and its enforcement to ensure their patents and copyrights are adequately protected. Our indigenous arts and culture, including music, share the same foundations. Ireland's intellectual property can be its greatest asset in the times ahead.
However, the rewards and opportunities for emerging artists are dwindling. The retail value of the CD market in Ireland has shrunk by €50 million per annum, and on-line sales are a long way from making up the shortfall. In the digital environment there is now a growing realisation that those involved in the delivery of music must take more responsibility for the continuing and widespread abuse of their networks for the unauthorised dissemination of copyright works. IMRO continues to work with music service providers to license legitimate alternatives so that consumers can enjoy the benefits of digital distribution. It is incumbent on all Internet service providers to work with the music industry so that illegal distribution is minimised. If voluntary co-operation from ISPs is not forthcoming, the sector should be strongly encouraged by Government to engage in meaningful measures to address the issue. This will give emerging songwriters realistic incentives to pursue full-time careers in the creative sector and will preserve Ireland's enviable reputation as a source of vibrant creative talent for years to come.
I thank Mr. Donald and Mr. Finn for their presentations. I welcome Ms Sinéad Troy, general manager of the Irish Association of Songwriters, Composers and Authors, and invite her to make her presentation.
Ms Sinéad Troy
I thank the Chairman. My colleagues and I are here to represent three separate music industry associations. I am general manager of the Irish Association of Songwriters, Composers and Authors, IASCA; Ms Angela Dorgan is representing First Music Contact, FMC; and Mr. Alan Cullivan is here to represent the Music Managers Forum. The goal of IASCA, which will be launched shortly, is to build an alliance that supports and protects the interests of music writers of all genres and fosters emerging talent. Our aim is to strengthen the existing community in Ireland by encouraging songwriters, composers and authors to connect and support each other and by providing a voice on their behalf. IASCA will provide advice and education and inform members about their ever-changing environment through publications, a website and seminars. We will lobby industry bodies and Government to address issues on behalf of members. We intend to foster and celebrate world-class music writing in Ireland and to empower emerging talent. IASCA will also seek ways of creating and increasing financial opportunities and exposure for members in the domestic market.
First Music Contact, is the only free and independent information and resource organisation for popular musicians and the popular music sector in Ireland. FMC co–runs the Hard Working Class Heroes festival, Ireland's premier A&R festival showcasing emerging Irish talent. Music from Ireland is another project spearheaded by FMC project which seeks to build a brand around Irish bands at international music festivals. Most recently FMC has spearheaded the Breaking Tunes project, providing a platform for Irish musicians to showcase themselves to the industry. FMC is funded by the Arts Council.
The Music Managers Forum, MMF, will provide a strong, united voice for its membership of music managers of both high profile and developing artists and also of self -managed artists who look after their own career interests. In a complex industry where the meaning of success changes daily the MMF will provide a place where emerging talents can learn about progressing in the music industry from seasoned experts and from each other. Opportunities to network will become a vital part of the forum's activities.
An issue that has been highlighted to all of us by artists and music fans alike is that they do not hear many Irish artists on the radio, especially in the daytime when the greatest numbers of listeners tune in. Radio is an enormous part of the challenge for Irish artists to achieve exposure both domestically and internationally. Irish artists who have recently benefited from significant airplay are The Coronas and Cathy Davey. This has allowed them not only to build their careers at home but internationally also. A group that has not been substantially supported on radio, Villagers, have gone on to achieve international exposure and subsequent success. They have appeared on Jools Holland's music show on BBC television in the United Kingdom, for example, and have been nominated for the Mercury music prize. I hope this will lead to more support from radio stations at home.
Music from Ireland, a subsidiary of First Music Contact, FMC, is a prime example of how Government funding already has made a difference. Ms Angela Dorgan is responsible for giving artists otherwise impossible access to the international markets through music festivals and music conferences. The Irish Music Rights Organisation, IMRO, is very supportive of Irish music at home and of working with FMC abroad.
The music industry outside of Ireland places enormous emphasis on the success artists have achieved in their home territory. It is not only a filter for such companies, which receive music from artists all over the world, but exposure in one's own market now is a prerequisite for record labels, music agents and music promoters abroad to consider working with Irish artists because it shows they have potential. The medium of radio plays a large part in this exposure and a top ten position on the national airplay charts in Ireland for Irish artists is like the Holy Grail. It gives members of the public a chance to hear great music that they then can support through buying albums and tickets for gigs. For example, I attended a meeting with a large independent record label in the United Kingdom last year whose representatives told me that Irish artists should not present themselves to a United Kingdom record label for consideration in the current climate without at least being able to sell out venues in Ireland with a capacity of 1,000 tickets plus. While it is not impossible to so do without radio support, it is very difficult.
We understand the radio industry's priorities are to its audience and its advertising clients. Radio is a business but music is at its core. Radio depends on its existence to function, its audiences are Irish and there is plenty of Irish music of all genres to suit its daytime shows. It appears as though the radio industry considers itself to be in a difficult position. It is terrified of losing its audience and, consequently, the advertising expenditure on which it depends to survive. This mindset must change. Irish audiences love music from this country. The live industry, gigs and festivals are bursting at the seams with Irish artists touring the country throughout the year. Recently, I have heard increasing amounts of music from Irish artists and composers on television and radio advertising for brands. I refer, for example, to campaigns for Discover Ireland and VHI. This is a fantastic use of great music domestically and is of huge benefit to an artist's exposure. In fact, radio responds to such exposure by playlisting such songs, having rejected them previously.
We would like Irish radio stations to be more proactive rather than reactive. Other territories have started initiatives on how creative sectors can work together to ensure a blooming future. For example, UK Music has started a project called Liberating Creativity. This is the first time ever that the commercial music industry has been obliged to come together to unite behind a vision for the future. We three organisations, namely, the Irish Association of Songwriters, Composers and Authors, IASCA, FMC and the Music Managers' Forum Ireland, MMF, have decided to set up something similar for the Irish music industry. One area we would like to discuss with the broadcasting industry is how it can improve on the already existing support for Irish artists at national, regional, local, community and college radio level. We have created an initiative that may address this issue, called Who Are The Music People in Your Neighbourhood? With the support of all, this project may help to secure all our futures by connecting and growing the Irish music industry county by county by highlighting, supporting and building up local artists, media and retailers, which will help to sustain and create employment in the Irish music industry.
A radio station is made unique by its audience and geography. Consequently, who are the music people in its neighbourhood? They are artists, radio stations, music journalists, bloggers, venues, promoters, music retailers, instrument retailers and makers, recording studios, equipment hire, etc. The project suggests the creation of a continuous half-hour daytime show on each regional or local station once a week that will highlight local music, local music businesses and Irish music of all genres. Such a show, presented to the local community as a community project, could be an answer not only to sustaining but also increasing listenership of local radio. Irish artists are prepared to support stations that support Irish music. They would be willing to provide exclusives, to highlight them on their websites and to support stations that increase dramatically the volume of music by Irish artists played at daytime. The project will be run by a dedicated project manager in each county. IASCA will oversee the project managers, Breaking Tunes, a project by FMC, will host the music from and help identify, local artists, and the MMF will highlight and support the project through its managers and artists.
Now more than ever, Irish companies are looking to the public to support their industries, which will sustain and grow employment, such as, for example, the Love Irish Food campaign. Let us ask the public to take the same leap of faith with music from Ireland. While we all are suffering in the current climate on foot of changes within the industry, the recession and the volcano in some cases, it is time to work together and to help and support one another. Irish artists and their music are the heart of this country and their survival is imperative. Government investment in music is already working. We need further investment and support to take it to the next level. We seek a recommendation from the joint committee to the broadcasting industry to support this project. We would also like to examine any funding opportunity that may be available to help make this project a success for all of us.
I thank Ms Troy for her concrete suggestion. I am sure members will be interested in it. I am conscious that Ms Troy has spoken for Ms Dorgan and Mr. Cullivan, but they can contribute during the questions and answers session if they wish. We may as well take the other speakers, as everyone should get a fair crack, if that is okay with members. I am referring to Ms Jane Bolton, Mr. John Cook, Mr. Mick Broderick and Mr. Danny McCarthy.
Mr. Danny McCarthy
Would the committee like us to present our report?
Absolutely. We might take Ms Bolton first, then mix it a bit and take Mr. McCarthy.
Mr. Danny McCarthy
If possible, we have a report to present. It is important.
I apologise. The witnesses are all together. Mr. McCarthy will speak on behalf of all four. That would make it much easier, as members are anxious to revert to the matter.
Mr. Danny McCarthy
As our representative body, the media authority has published a report, the aim of which is to act as a catalyst towards the creation of employment and the generation of revenue among the musical community in general and, more specifically, those involved in the folk and traditional music genre. In doing so, it is intended to highlight one of the main concerns facing this sector of our community in the hope that immediate action may be taken to ensure its basic survival and afford its members the opportunity and assistance they deserve.
Part 1 outlines the current situation. When we speak of the one main concern, we are referring to airplay on radio and television.
As Mr. McCarthy has been anxious to contribute for a long time and he is speaking for four people, I will give him as much time as he needs. He can take his time.
Mr. Danny McCarthy
When speaking with Irish Music Rights Organisation, IMRO, members earlier, I found that there may discrepancies in one or two of my points, but the major question is how we know there is a problem. It is time for the first of three facts. An IMRO report for 2008 showed that in that year, all the broadcasters of Ireland paid approximately €9 million in royalties. Of this, an approximate €8.25 million went to foreign publishers, composers and songwriters, leaving an estimated €750,000 for their Irish counterparts. The next point in my submission can be left out as the situation may have altered slightly.
Airplay is the cornerstone of a musician's survival. Without it, a musician or singer cannot gain exposure. Without exposure, there is no marketing support for CD sales. Without CD sales, there is little or no investment from record companies or other corporate bodies, the sponsorship of which is necessary for funding various musical projects, thus leading to poorly attended concerts that end up having fewer audience numbers. Naturally enough, all of this has led to artists being left to struggle and being pushed out to the fringes of a prosperous nation.
Are our artists really struggling? It is time for fact No. 2. Arts Council research showed that in 2001, 50% of artists earned an annual income of less than €10,000 per annum. The situation has probably worsened since then. I am sure there are a number of ways to measure poverty, which is what we are discussing, but this report is not intended to show those measures. With such a statistic, little else need be said.
We mentioned that artists deserve better. Is this a fair question? It can be argued that we need to develop and preserve our musical culture, the way in which the artist is an integral part of our society or how music is such an important tool by which the people of a nation can explore and express themselves. These are all good arguments, but never mind them for a moment. Money talks, so let us talk money. Bord Fáilte's 2005 annual report showed that foreign exchange earnings were estimated to be approximately €4.3 billion. As described by IMRO, the main reason cited by most of the visiting tourists in that year and other years was to listen to and enjoy Irish folk and traditional music. Fáilte Ireland and Tourism Ireland have stated cultural tourism is increasing by 15% per annum.
We have now established that the majority of Irish musicians — composers, songwriters and so on — are struggling to survive while the majority of royalties are going foreign. It has briefly been shown also that musicians do actually deserve better, given that traditional and folk music is inextricably linked with the billions generated by the tourism industry. Where lies the problem? How about taking a quick look at who is in control of the media? Perhaps the more pertinent question is whether there is media control.
The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland now controls the legislation on broadcasting for all radio and television stations. I am not sure but I presume it has control of RTE. The BAI is required to formulate and apply a policy that takes account of plurality of ownership and diversity of broadcasting in Ireland, but it has no legislation on the percentage of airplay for Irish music due to a complaint made to the European Parliament that 30% airplay could not be granted to Irish music as that would discriminate against European musicians. This was stated in two letters to me from the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan. That was the reason the 30% quota was not applied and it needs to be changed.
According to the Broadcasting Act, the BAI is obliged to give the public access to a diversity of programmes from a variety of sources to best serve the needs of the people of the island of Ireland, bearing in mind their languages, traditions and their religious, ethical and cultural diversity. The BAI policy document shows it has a very serious responsibility in what is being broadcast. Three of the five regulatory principles of the BAI refer to diversity, a flexible and consistent approach, and adequate regulation based on current conditions. However, in light of what we have spoken about, there is no diversity, a flexible approach is non-existent and there is certainly no regulation. It is not just our word; this point has also been highlighted in the Athena Media report by Helen Shaw. This is an in-depth study of the broadcasting patterns of various European countries. She refers to the current situation in this country, commenting: "Ireland and Dublin in particular has less radio choices than other similar sized populations". She says there is potential for another national station that would do something distinctly different in music and speech because at this time: "Diverse music choices are still absent".
Where is the road paved with good intentions? Good intentions and aspirations are all that seem to govern the broadcasters of this land. Policy statements and broadcasting Acts are littered with words such as "aims to", "seeks to" and "aspires to" but all are falling well short of allocating any real or concrete responsibility or accountability. It can hardly come as a surprise to anyone that this has led to an ad hoc, banana republic type, free-for-all slicing of our airwaves. Airplay, the essence of any professional or aspiring musician’s well-being, is being hijacked by forces outside the country to the detriment of those inside. It might not be so bad if airplay was being hijacked because this would imply some kind of resistance on the part of a governing body, but there is no resistance and there is no governing body. The BAI and the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources have adopted a blind, laissez-faire attitude. Mick Broderick wrote that phrase and I will ask him for the translation. When they were contacted they adopted a very defensive approach to questioning and failed to accept any responsibility or accountability for what can only be described as a national disgrace. I ask the question a second time: who is in control of the media and broadcasting in Ireland? The answer would seem to be no one.
It is worth noting that no matter what amount of investment there is in Irish music, without airplay it is, unfortunately, money down the drain. What good is funding the recording of a CD if there is no airtime for the finished product? Where is the need for a state-of-the-art theatre if, through lack of airplay, an audience cannot be generated? Subsidising concerts for artists is also a waste of money if the artist has no support.
It is our opinion that a media regulatory body should be set up with immediate effect to examine the airplay that exists for Irish music. This is very important because it would allow all of us to sit around and discuss the issues. Such an authority would need to take a serious look at issues such as access, ownership, percentages, regulation and diversity of broadcasters in Ireland, not to mention the laws and legislation governing them which need to be implemented. This media regulatory body would need to take charge of the current situation and do whatever it takes to enable Irish artists access a most important resource of which they are being deprived.
This is all about building a framework to create a real music industry in Ireland. The foundation of this industry is airplay. Otherwise, we will continue to be a country where a small percentage of musicians grow in wealth because of the support of external international forces while the much greater percentage of musicians continue to struggle for survival on the basis of the poor implementation of Government legislation.
A recent reply I received in an e-mail from Peter Feeney, head of public affairs policy at RTE, sums up the situation. He stated they sympathise with the dilemma of Irish musicians and recognise that international forces can determine to a certain extent what is fashionable and therefore attractive in music. He stated that at times the lonely traditional musician must feel like he or she is in a David and Goliath relationship with the overwhelming forces of international music. This reply sums up the attitude of RTE and the BAI to Irish music. I rest my case.
I thank Mr. McCarthy for his robust presentation. Committee members are aware of his views and he has been seeking a meeting with us, as have other representatives who are before the committee today. I will ask members to comment. I welcome Deputy Jimmy Deenihan who is the new Front Bench spokesperson for tourism, culture and sport for the Fine Gael Party. This is his first occasion to attend a committee meeting officially.
Music has helped us all get through bleaker times. I remember as a student listening to some of the people present at this meeting who played music. They lifted us out of darker periods of our lives when things were not great. We are going through a rough time economically and the message from Farmleigh, with which I agree, is that we should look to culture, music, the arts and the film industry — we have received representations from all of the people concerned — to try to lift us through this economic recession. Apart from the sense of well-being this would engender, those who have stated it are correct that opportunities exist for individuals and artists to help.
A number of concrete suggestions have been made on media regulatory bodies and local radio. Mr. O'Keeffe has outlined the position on the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland. We have had good, solid interventions from many people. I will now hand over to the committee so we can delve through the issues.
The purpose of the committee is to try to deal with complex issues by giving a voice to those who need to express themselves, whether as individuals or as organisations. We have a major interest in the artistic world. Our job is to find solutions; that is what we are all about. Our role is to help the great population of artists that are out there. We are here to help the delegates.
I am delighted to be a member again of this committee, of which I was a member for a number of years. I have watched the proceedings of this committee, which is one of the most energetic in the House, probably because of the Chairman. It is important to note that among the committee members we have experts such as Senator Paschal Mooney, who has done a lot for Irish music over the years, and Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú, who has just left.
Senator Ó Murchú will be back, by the way.
He has made an enormous contribution to Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann and the all-Ireland Fleadh Cheoil, which attracts about 250,000 people and brings about €30 million to the country. What these organisations have done for Irish music throughout the world is considerable. If one goes to a place such as Sardinia, for example, and sees its local Comhaltas branch, one realises how much the organisation has spread throughout the world. It is fair to say Irish music defines us as a country more than anything else. By "contemporary" we mean all-embracing, including traditional music as well as every other genre.
As well as defining us as a country, music is also the lifeblood of our tourism industry. There is no doubt that the majority of tourists who come to Ireland, for whatever reason, would like to listen to Irish music at some point during their holidays because those are the memories they will take back with them. Often the CDs they buy will be played in their cars for the rest of the year. Irish music is very influential; there is no doubt about it. It has defined us as a nation more than any other single aspect of the arts during the years. I realise we have been very strong in literature, producing Nobel prize winners, but Irish music, more than anything else, has defined us. That is why we must take it seriously as a country and it should be a key aspect of Government policy. The delegates take it seriously in the various sectors. They must do so to survive. Nationally, however, we need to make it a top priority.
The attitude in the past may have been that the Irish music scene was looking after itself so there was no need to interfere. This has now changed because of economic pressures and so on, and we must consider other possibilities. Whether in Government or out of Government, we are considering ways of developing creativity. I can see music being one of those ways. The challenge is there for the country.
If the delegates read the report of Second Stage of the Broadcasting Bill 2008 when it was going through the Dáil, they will have seen that I made a strong case for the playing of more Irish music. I spent 20 minutes — the entire allocated time — on that element alone. The Minister was obviously restricted in what he could do in terms of giving guarantees, but I believe Irish music should be guaranteed a certain level of airplay. Rather than prescribing an exact amount, a minimum level should be set below which radio stations should not be allowed to go. I know it will take some time but Mr. McCarthy might give the committee the average airplay figures. Is there a definition of contemporary music? There is Irish traditional ballad music, sean-nós singing and other genres such as folk music. He might give members an overview followed by the percentages and look briefly at what is at the top in the country. I would be very anxious to know how they are doing in Radio Kerry where I think a very good job is being done. Perhaps Mr. McCarthy might give the committee the exact figures.
I agree with Mr. McCarthy that unless there is some kind of legislative imperative it is easy for the authority entrusted with the responsibility of ensuring compliance to be given a way out if the commitment is not there. He might refer to airtime and so on. This Bill went through the Dáil last summer. There was a great opportunity to do something but Mr. McCarthy may agree the opportunity was not capitalised upon at the time.
Mr. Danny McCarthy
I will refer to one thing Deputy Deenihan asked about. Before the BAI was set up I asked the BCI how it categorised Irish music. I was told by a member of the BCI at that time that it categorised Irish music as country and Irish. We have to define what is country and Irish, what is folk and what is traditional. We must break all that down because we are not country and Irish musicians. I apologise for interrupting but I wanted to let the Deputy know that.
I welcome Mr. Keith Donald of IMRO. The figure of 10,000 full-time equivalents working in the music industry is a very conservative estimate. I believe the number is far greater. The delegates are probably familiar with the Indecon report. It was carried out by the Arts Council, not on the music industry as such but on its own activities and what it supports. I believe a report of that magnitude would be useful for the music industry too, in the future, to strengthen its case. Perhaps the delegates should demand similar treatment. That was a comprehensive report which gave the gross value added of the various arts sectors. It showed what is expended and the results or the multiplier. It would be very important to have such a report for the music industry.
There is one major issue right now, namely, how to occupy young people and challenge them. I am fascinated by the interest young people take in all genres of music, especially in traditional music. It gives me great heart that there are so many interested young people who are playing and enjoying traditional music. It is also a great team effort and is not merely for individuals. People get together and love to play together in sessions. They do not know each other and may come from different backgrounds but all play together. This is obvious and is happening throughout the country, which is very encouraging. At a time when we are trying to come to terms with challenging our young people, this factor should not be discarded or underestimated. It is a powerful force at this time.
I shall give a very small example. In the village I come from the local community bought one of the last thatched houses remaining in the county. All during the winter there are music classes taking place almost every evening in this little house we held on to, and Irish and French classes as well. Now we have a little group, Finuge, which performs there, all as a result of having started off in this house. It struck me how effective it can be when the effort is made locally and there is interest.
I thank Mr. Donald because only for IMRO there would not be a national ballad event this Saturday night. I am pleased reference was made to the Seán McCarthy all-Ireland ballad festival. More than 80 people have gone to the trouble of recording their songs and forwarding them with the lyrics to be judged in the competition. This shows the level of interest in music and the number of songwriters. Only for IMRO in providing the database and financial support this would not be happening.
I refer to Ms Troy's comments. It struck me that we should have some music forum in Ireland. Ms Tania Bannotti is in charge of Theatre Forum Ireland which is engaged in a major lobby to seek funding for theatre productions throughout the country. Apart from this gathering, I do not see the same pressure being exerted by anyone in the music industry. Perhaps it has been done, but I am not sure if it has.
I do not wish to stop the Deputy on his first day out, but three Members are offering, Deputies Upton and Kitt and Senator Mooney. If the Deputy does not mind, I will ask them to make their contributions. I have noted the points made and will ask the delegation to address them. I am trying to keep control of proceedings.
I take the Chairman's point. The IASCA's contribution is helpful and reinforces our view on the value of music. A great deal is being done which should not be underestimated. However, more could be done. I cite as an example the UK music industry which is liberating creative talent. This is the first time those involved in the commercial music industry there have come together to unite behind a vision for the future. Is something similar happening in Ireland? Does it include Mr. McCarthy's people also?
Ms Angela Dorgan
Yes.
That is great. It is important that there is such a forum. I refer to Mr. Danny McCarthy who has been trying to come before the committee for some time. I secured a hearing for him, but he was advised not to come at the time. It is great that he is present today. It is clear that he is very passionate about music. He has made a very passionate contribution today which, incidentally, will be recorded for posterity.
It will be played throughout the globe.
Mr. Danny McCarthy
It will be played on YouTube also.
Mr. McCarthy has implied that because musicians do not get airplay, they are not getting work; that the more airplay one gets, whether on local or national radio, the more work one gets. Will he comment on the public house-bar scene? There was a time when in every pub there was a ballad group playing at weekends. It seems that is no longer the case. Is this because people are not drinking as much and publicans do not have the income to pay musicians, or is it because musicians are not getting air time and consequently customers do not want music in bars? Why has this stopped happening? If there is no music being played in a bar, save from a juke box, it is simply not the same. Visitors come here to interface with us and listen to Irish music. In Dublin it seems they may not get an opportunity to meet Irish people in restaurants and hotels. This is a modern day phenomenon in the tourism industry. Hospitality workers include people from other countries who are entitled to be here. They may not hear Irish music. They are two issues to which the delegates might refer.
I spoke to some of the delegates before the meeting. Today, the committee published a very good report on the Irish language. As a way of helping the delegates, I and someone else could act as rapporteurs and compile a report on the music industry, having pulled together the various strands with the help of the delegates. We could come up with some practical proposals which could be implemented without any great cost to the Exchequer. We might be able to use what is already in place to help the delegates and come out with some strong recommendations. I am delighted to have had the opportunity to speak.
The Deputy had a lot to say. I am happy to go along with his last proposal. This is the second meeting we have had on this issue. RTE, 2FM and Today FM came before the committee. I know Mr. McCarthy has wanted to come before the committee for some time and I am glad he is here. The other voices we wanted to hear are also with us today. We should adopt the Deputy's last suggestion before we leave here today, in the same way we compiled the report on the Irish language and other reports. Deputy Upton initiated a report, as has Deputy Ring and others. It would be ideal, if the members of the committee could agree. We will deal with that in private session.
The time is right for this debate because there is a love of music and the arts among the people. We see it in every town and village and in Dublin. There are number of festivals taking place. People are crying out to support artists. There is a love of music and community events. The membership of this committee comprises Deputies and Senators from all over the country which is why I am anxious to hear from them. The time is right for the delegates to be here. We will support them in every way and the last suggestion is a good one.
I am sure Deputy Upton will agree we allowed Deputy Deenihan some leeway today. We will not always allow him that.
Okay, Chairman, I got the message.
That was a subtle way of asking Deputy Upton to be brief.
I always like listening to Deputy Upton.
Please go ahead.
Thank you, Chairman. I welcome the delegates and thank them for their presentations, most of which were very passionate. I was going to start by being somewhat critical of the committee system but Deputy Deenihan may have stolen my thunder to a certain extent. I was going to be critical because a delegation came before the committee in February and one of the delegates at the meeting said that much is being done but much more can be done by the independent sector and RTE. That was in February. Have we moved one whit since? My fear is that when we have a talking shop we all think it is great, air our views and have all kinds of pleasant commentary, but what does the committee do about it?
I am not criticising this committee or the Chairman but we need to have a firm proposal on where we are going, what we will do, to whom we are going to address our queries and what action can be taken. We have all talked about this for some time. I appreciate all the difficulties and some key points have been made, such as the importance of the cultural value of music and how crucial it is to all of us as Irish people. There is a huge economic value which we can attribute to it. A report stated that approximately 93% of royalties are paid outside of the State. What can and should be done about that? I know some of the reasons for it. Some of the big groups are based in other countries, but we are letting go a huge local enterprise by allowing that to happen and we need to critically examine this to determine what we can do to pull it back into the system here.
On the question of quotas, which are important, I am confused. We have had various commentaries on them. Mr. McCarthy reported on what the Minister, Deputy Ryan, said and, according to him, we are not allowed to have up to 30% because it is against European Union regulations. Could we provide for a figure of 40% or 50% if we wanted to do so? I just do not understand how the system might work. For example, if there is a radio station which is willing to have a figure of 70% for Irish music, is it precluded from doing so, according to the European Union? I am wondering about the percentages, from where they have come, how they evolved, what they mean and if someone makes them up as they go along. What is the basis for them? Who decides on them? While Mr. O'Keeffe has set out a number of criteria, will he explain how they evolved and how they are defined for a particular station? I am aware he has given some examples such as the age profile of listeners, location and so on, but somebody in the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland makes the decision. Those who are dependent on it need to know what standards will apply to them, the criteria used and so on. If it is left airy fairy, it is very difficult for people to buy into and commit to the system. They need to know exactly what is happening. If a station is in breach of its contract with the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, in other words, if it does not meet a figure of, say, 25% for Irish music, what are the sanctions? How does one get it to meet the shortfall? What are the standards applies and who is responsibility for ensuring they are applied?
I want to ask Ms Troy about college radio stations, in which I am interested. This might be the starting point for many and they have huge potential because of the way people's musical interests evolve. How significant are they? I presume Ms Troy was speaking about third level colleges. What criteria are applied in licensing because I imagine such stations mainly play music which could be important in creating a new audience profile.
I have one other question for Mr. McCarthy on his comment about the media regulatory body. I am curious what role he sees for that body. Will he clarify the responsibilities it might have? Would it have a statutory role? Who would he envisage as being part of it and how would its recommendations be implemented? It is all very fine to have these nice criteria, but at the end of the day it comes down to implementation and ensuring they would be adhered to.
The music industry is hugely important. There is what is known as cultural tourism and we talk about having a cultural ambassador. There is the diaspora to consider, for which it is also extremely important. With such a high level of unemployment, it is crucial that those who are hugely committed to and have a huge interest in the music industry, as artists or promoters, are given every opportunity and offered every support in the times that are in it.
The Deputy is right that there is a need for the committee to take the next step and do something concrete, a matter that will be decided at our next meeting which will be private. Collectively, we will come up with the title of our work. Members agree that we must come up with a practical agenda and make recommendations. Obviously, we will invite submissions from the persons who are present.
I welcome the delegations and the work being done by IMRO in supporting the promotion of song contests, particularly the Glinsk song contest in north Galway, not to be confused with Glinsk in west Galway. We were waiting one night for Johnny McEvoy to appear in north Galway, but he was in Connemara, a long way from north Galway. That song contest which I have attended for many years is very good in promoting the writing of new songs. Mr. McCarthy was asked who was in control and he said, "No one." We would not need to have any control if there was fair play when it comes to artists and writers.
It was interesting, and Deputy Upton referred to it, that when the national broadcasters — RTE and Today FM — came before the committee it was difficult to find out the position on quotas and play lists. I recall making the point at the time that local radio does not appear to have any problem promoting Irish artists. I suggest to the Chairman that we might examine that issue with representatives of local radio.
Request programmes were a feature of national radio years ago, going back to "Hospitals' Requests", which broadcast a long time ago. That does not appear to be the case now with national broadcasters. They almost apologise for saying they want to play a request for somebody. If it happens, it is an exception but there is no problem with that on local radio.
Our committee has been very supportive of artists. We have always been involved in developing creativity and this meeting is a good opportunity to discuss that but there are certain programmes in which I am sure every artist would like to participate.
I have a particular interest in Irish music, and play a little in my spare time, but there are some programmes on the national radio such as Mo Cheol Thú and Fáilte Isteach which are dedicated programmes. The same is the case on local radio. That does not appear to be the case in other areas. We often hear people say that to make the breakthrough one has to get on "The Late Late Show" or some equivalent programme. People who have been successful in Europe and throughout the world would say they got their break on "The Late Late Show".
Deputy Deenihan referred to YouTube. YouTube seems to be the place where everybody appears, especially if they are in an embarrassing position. If a celebrity falls on his or her face it is posted on YouTube immediately but YouTube also promotes music.
It is a difficult area but I suggest that we might examine local radio and also the national broadcasters because I do not believe we got answers when their representatives came before the committee last February. We did not get any information on quotas or on the type of traditional request programmes broadcast in the past. I hope they will be invited in again to allow us examine the question of how we manage this issue and the way it is managed in other countries in Europe. We are all part of the European broadcasting union as well as the European Union. That should be done as soon as possible.
We certainly need to dig deeper into this issue. I now call somebody who has been a voice in this area in the past and who has a great deal to say, Senator Mooney.
I will try to limit my exuberance on this topic for the benefit of everybody else. I declare an interest in that I am a practising broadcaster not only with RTE but also with a number of local stations. I also have a 1% involvement — that is what it was the last time I checked — with a country music station called Country Mix in Dublin. That interest does not inhibit me in expressing opinions but perhaps what I would say might be misinterpreted. I will try to address what is the main purpose of this meeting.
I agree with what Deputy Upton said in terms of where we go from here. She cut to the chase when she said we can continue to talk about this issue, and it has been talked about. It is a subject that has been exercising the minds of anybody involved in the music industry, whether they are record companies, performers or whoever else for years.
In the context of quotas, it might be of use to the committee — I have one or two questions to put to the assembled gathering — to know that in the early stages of this debate prior to deregulation in the 1980s, there was a very active lobby group — James Morris was one of the people involved at that time — involved in trying to persuade what was then the monolithic RTE to introduce a quota. There are two elements to the quota. One is that the benchmark at that time was Canada. In terms of how the quota worked, which, unfortunately, breaches Treaty of Rome regulations since we joined, it was not a percentage. I do not believe in percentages as they inhibit broadcasters in the main. If a percentage applied in this context, there would be an outcry over it. Broadcasters generally and those involved in providing music hate any limitations being placed on them. The BCI constantly monitors what they do.
The Canadian process in this respect worked. Radio stations there had to conform to two of four criteria, namely, one, that the song was written by a Canadian artist, two, that it was recorded by a Canadian artist, three, that it was published by a Canadian publishing company and, four, that the record was produced and distributed by a Canadian owned record company. At the time the people involved in radio in Canada were annoyed about this, but it resulted in the development of some of most wonderful artists there down through the decades. Indigenous Canadian artists, like Irish indigenous artists, had no chance up to then simply because Canada was and remains a little like Ireland in that it has a big brother like we have in the case of Britain. The overwhelming thrust of artists in the music industry were emerging from America. This was affecting Canadian mores and culture in much the same way as the United Kingdom has to a large extent colonised our music here. It is to the credit of those involved, many of whom are here today, people from Comhaltas and the Irish artists, that they have struggled to survive despite the lack of oxygen of publicity. Margaret Thatcher famously referred to not giving the oxygen of publicity to the terrorists. As Mr. Danny McCarthy pointed out, if a musician does not have the oxygen of airplay, one withers on the vine — one does not survive. It is extraordinary that Irish artists have been able to survive in the hostile environment in which they operate.
This leads on to the main crux of the issue for us as a committee, and I would like Mr. Michael O'Keeffe to address this point as, essentially, the authority, as he pointed out in his submission, has responsibility for benchmarking how radio is regulated in this country in terms of the political content and how it is broken down into the various genres. I applaud the work done by Mr. Michael O'Keeffe and those in the BCI. He has steered an impressive path through the minefield of broadcasting regulation. I wish him continued success in his new role.
This road is paved with good intentions. Everybody to whom one speaks will say that he or she supports the Irish music industry, it is like mama and apple pie. Of course, they support the Irish music industry and there should be more airplay of Irish artists. When one delves into the subtext of that, the question of definitions arises in terms of what one means by "an Irish artist", "Irish music" and by the term "Irish contemporary music". Those are the difficulties and the challenges facing everybody in this regard. I suggest that definitions need to be established.
Mr. O'Keeffe referred to compliance and the definitions under which the contractual obligations of broadcasters must operate; he said that definitions vary. He also said that a higher percentage of Irish music can be played in the case of certain stations with a broader base of listeners and lesser percentages are found on the more urban music driven services. Within that, there is a minefield in this respect. It is an extraordinary challenge and a compliment to Mr. O'Keeffe and his staff that they are able to plot their way through this. That is the area the committee can examine in terms of definitions, as in the case of defining what is Irish music. I thank my friend and colleague, Deputy Deenihan, for his kind comments about the support such as it is that I have given during my broadcasting career. I wish him well in his new brief, as this is the first opportunity I have to do so at this committee.
Mr. McCarthy has said that a reference was made to country and Irish music. Everybody will expect that because I identified with that genre for many years that I will be supportive of this. I am not against it, but I am not myopic enough to suggest that when I talk about Irish airplay that it should be about country and Irish music. However, I will say, in defence of those people because they are not here, that a significant number, although a dwindling band, of artists — live bands — are supported by a significant number of people who enjoy that sort of music around the country. They continue to provide valuable and sustainable employment but are fighting against the odds because they, like Mr. McCarthy and the traditional and folk music, as he referred to it, do not receive airplay of any great note not only on national radio but on local radio. If one listens to local radio at 8 p.m. or 9 p.m., one will probably hear people like Daniel O'Donnell.
Daniel O'Donnell was referred to in the context of a number of the submissions. The reason he was referred to is that he is an artist of international stature. He has had several best selling albums in the UK album charts, which is a contemporary album chart. He sells out concerts wherever he goes. He spends approximately one third of the year in America where he plays sell out concerts to non-Irish. I am not talking about whether one likes or dislikes a particular musical genre. We are talking about the collective corpus that is Irish music.
Those living and working in this country are trying to earn a living to survive, to look after their families and to meet their responsibilities. As Mr. Donald, Mr. McCarthy and those who are performers will know, one cannot just think of oneself as one has a whole team behind one. There are guys and girls on stage with one, there is a road crew and there is all the attendant employment for which one is responsible. If one does not get the dates, those people have no work. The dates will not be arranged if one does not get air play because nobody will have heard of one.
It is a very real problem, whether for The Coronas, who I am glad to know are getting due acknowledgement, or otherwise. As has been stated, many of the playlist people on radio turned down The Coronas and would not play them. All of a sudden, everybody wants them because they stuck at it and were determined to be successful and talent won out in the end. That is the challenge facing us when we talk about this issue of how we give practical effect to supporting Irish music.
I propose that a proper definition is agreed relating to licence obligations which will stop short of a quota but which would bear down heavily on radio stations that refuse to include that agreed definition on daytime radio. I would like to hear Mr. O'Keeffe's view on this. The emphasis on daytime radio should not be lost. Mr. McCarthy and those involved will tell one that if one is trying to break a new artist and one telephones any radio station and asks for a particular piece of music, whether country music, traditional music, folk music or music from the contemporary rock scene, if it is not in the charts, one will be told there is a programme at 10 p.m. If one takes The Coronas as an example, I am sure this was their story that initially when they started looking for air play, they were told there was a programme going out at 10 p.m. on a Saturday or Sunday. That is not what they want. They want to be on between 7 a.m. and 7 p.m. and they want to be able to compete because they have put forward good production standards and a good product. Since music is subjective anyway, who has the right to decide that what they are doing is wrong or will not be of interest to the listener?
That brings me back to a point made earlier. It may be of interest to the committee to know that in almost all cases, only one individual in a radio station decides what will be on the playlist from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. There is a committee in 2FM but in local stations, which do not have the resources, it is generally left to one person. In effect, that person is actually expressing a prejudice, although he or she will deny it to the high heavens. He or she does not take an objective view. If he or she does not like the artist, the song or the type of music, he or she will not play it. That is something the BAI must consider and that is why I suggest an agreed definition that would be considered in the context of the licences being given out.
I spoke earlier about country music. Country and Irish is a hybrid term used to describe the influences coming from American country music referred to by Mr. Donald. American folk or country music started here. That is from where the influences come. It is not unusual that there should be a hybrid version of it. It is mixed in with our Irish culture which gives it this hybrid country and Irish. I do not care whether people hate it or love it. There are certain elements of it which are rubbish but there are also certain elements of pop music which are rubbish. One cannot be subjective about this; one must be objective. That is why everyone here has emphasised brand Ireland. We have an international brand we should nurture and encourage. In the opinion of the people here — I share their view — that brand is not getting due acknowledgement on either national or local radio at the time it should. What we are getting in its place is the colonisation of each generation.
It is an extraordinary achievement that 150,000 people will turn up in Cavan in a couple of weeks for the all-Ireland Fleadh Cheoil. One will not hear the Kilfenora Céilí Band on too many radio stations and one will not hear many of the young musicians who have developed and perfected their own particular Irish music dimension through their own creativity and have gone on to record. One will not hear the music of some of the record labels represented at this meeting whose raison d’être is to promote Irish traditional and folk music. Why is this so? Are we ashamed of it? Are we guilty of it? Despite this and as the submissions outline, one can go to any country, especially in Europe but also around the world, and find Irish traditional music is the one thought people have when they think of Ireland. They think of sport but they also think of music. They may think of U2 but they also think of Irish traditional music. The exit polls prove that and it has been proven here.
I suggest to Mr. O'Keeffe that radio stations will not have any more request programmes because they are afraid of what the public might ask for. I will always remember Larry Gogan, who would be the doyen of Irish disk jockeys, saying to me that when he goes on radio to play a pop music record, he plays it because it is in the charts or because the radio station is geared towards a young audience, but that the same night he would be doing a gig in some pub where the young people would probably be singing "The Fields of Athenry" followed by "One Day at a Time". One would not hear such songs that often or at all on daytime radio. On that basis, this committee could be doing a good service for all these good people present who are essentially in an industry that is faltering. I will not say it is dying because it is not. It is vibrant and it is creative, but it needs encouragement. I am sad to say that it is not getting the encouragement it should get. People across all the musical genres that represent Irish music are not getting encouragement from our local or national radio stations. Despite all the statistics and despite all the references which we heard on the previously occasion, and I am not being overly critical of what we heard previously, they are all in their own way doing their best, but there is a need to return to this question of a definition of support for the music industry.
It has been an enriching experience listening to the delegation and to my colleagues. Like Senator Mooney, I may also be obliged to declare an interest. In my case, it is that I have a son who is a singer-songwriter. I, as Chairman of this committee, am dealing with this subject because the committee receives requests from people to come in and speak to the members, but I am also dealing with it as one who, like all of my colleagues, has a love of music ever since I took up the guitar when I was approximately 12 or 13 in boarding school and realised the potential of this musical instrument.
Returning to the questions, almost everyone, Deputy Upton in particular, mentioned the issue of quotas and percentages. Senator Mooney made a specific recommendation about agreed definitions. There is the question of a definition of Irish music. There are a number of issues for Mr. O'Keeffe and Ms Ní Bhroin. There are many other questions on the forum. There is the breakdown of airplay for Irish music artists. The payment of royalties outside the State has been mentioned. That would be a question for IMRO. The delegation has been taking note as well and between all of us, we will try to address the comments made. I would be keen to hear Mr. O'Keeffe respond on the fundamental issue.
Mr. Michael O’Keeffe
I have divided the questions in a similar manner. I will not forget Deputy Deenihan's request to tell the committee what Radio Kerry is doing. There was the overview of what is happening — it is important we give a sense of that — and there was the definitions issue. I will ask Ms Ní Bhroin to speak on both matters. I will address what was described by one speaker as the legislative imperative, which brings in the issue of quotas, what can be done and what happens next. This topic has for many years generated a great deal of discussion and, as evidenced by Mr. McCarthy's contribution, passion.
I am going to ask Ms Ní Bhroin to provide an overview of what is happening in the sector and what is being done. She will also provide some background on the definitions. I will then comment on the other matters.
Ms Niamh Ní Bhroin
On the percentages, our contracts set out commitments. The latter relate to the 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. period and also to the total broadcast day. They will vary between different contractors. The way in which they vary is that at the application stage, applicants are asked to make proposals in respect of the amount of Irish music they are willing to play. As Mr. O'Keeffe stated, we would then have regard to that when assessing applications and deciding on the award of contracts. Many contractors have commitments of 20% at present. This percentage relates to the 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. period and the total broadcast day. In some instances, contractors will increase the amount of Irish music they play. For example, the percentage for the 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. period will be 20% and this might increase to 30% across the total broadcast day.
The current commitment contained in Radio Kerry's commitment is that in the 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. period and across the total broadcast day, over 30% of the music played is Irish. This material is played on general and specialist music programmes. Radio Kerry is also obliged to source, showcase and promote local, home-grown, regional and national talent.
Therefore, it is really a barometer for the remainder of the country.
Ms Niamh Ní Bhroin
Yes.
We should tell everyone about it.
Ms Niamh Ní Bhroin
Broad format services such as those provided by Radio Kerry and Clare FM would be good examples of a stronger commitment and are characteristic of the local radio services in general. As Mr. O'Keeffe stated, the range of music played on music-driven stations such as Q102 or 4FM becomes very narrowly focused as a result of their commercial impetus. On such stations, presenters play a lower percentage of Irish music because they have a smaller, more restricted body of material from which to choose. The percentage relating to these stations is approximately 15%. However, the commitments contained in their contracts would be in the lower range.
At the application stage, we ask prospective contractors to outline their definition of what constitutes Irish music. We then assess these definitions. We do this because we are not in a position to set a definition at present. We assess the definitions in the context of whether they are supportive of the Irish music industry, whether they promote Irish culture and whether they are broadly in line with an EU definition that would have arisen when the discussions relating to the quota took place. The basis of the latter definition is that the music should contribute to a distinctively contemporary music culture by engaging with lyrical themes which deal with the history of Ireland and the contemporary realities of life in Ireland, relate the stories and experiences of Irish people or contain, reflect or develop established Irish musical forms, especially those which are part of the living tradition, namely, reels, jigs and polkas.
If the definitions presented are broadly supportive of the music industry and are also broadly in line with the EU definition to which I refer, we would accept them. I have some examples of definitions which I will impart to members to give them a sense of what is involved. These definitions are in line with the Canadian approach to which Senator Mooney referred. For example, 4FM defines Irish music as music which is performed by a person from Ireland, music and lyrics that are composed by someone from Ireland or music that is recorded in Ireland or wholly performed and broadcast live in Ireland. Cork's 96FM defines Irish music as music performed by Irish artists, written by Irish artists or recorded in Ireland. Clare FM defines Irish music as music that has been composed, recorded, produced or performed by Irish artists. Many of the four criteria employed by the Canadians are evident in these definitions.
Is Ms Ní Bhroin stating the BAI has allowed applicants to supply their own definitions and that a somewhat patchy interpretation obtains throughout the country? Is it the case that the applicants' interpretations rather than an overarching definition apply?
Ms Niamh Ní Bhroin
Applicants set their definitions and we ensure they are supportive of the Irish music industry and in line with the EU definition to which I refer. They are all different. There are similarities but they would all be the applicants' own definitions, not the BAI's.
How does this fit with the EU pressure, which seems to be on everyone, that there is almost an impediment to playing Irish music? How can this formula be converted into the most positive status?
Mr. Michael O’Keeffe
It is a challenge because the European Union was quite specific. It is interesting that Senator Mooney quoted Canada because that was the model we looked at when we considered this in the mid-1990s. At the time the chairman of the Independent Radio and Television Commission, as it was then, Niall Stokes, was probably as passionate about Irish music as Mr. McCarthy, although they may have preferred different genres. He was committed to introducing the quota but they were clear that any quota that specified nationality or Irishness – we looked at whether this could be brought into legislation – would not be acceptable or permissible. We had a meeting in Brussels in the mid-1990s at which we were accompanied by officials of the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, as it was then, which was responsible for broadcasting policy at that time. We were present when this issue was addressed and it was clear that we could not go down the route that was desired. As a policy it was desired at the time but we could not go down that route.
We have looked to explore other ways and with regard to the issue raised by Deputy Upton, there is a little confusion. We cannot impose a quota. During a licensing process we inform the applicant that they have an obligation to deliver Irish music and support the Irish music industry within the service for which they will be licensed. They tell us in their application how they will deliver that and we copperfasten it in a contract and monitor them. That is the arrangement but it is not a policy nor is there a legislative basis for it.
Do the scenarios for local and national radio differ?
Mr. Michael O’Keeffe
No. I quoted the guide to submissions and the reference in the Act which deals with the extent to which the applicant will create within the proposed broadcaster new opportunities for talent and music. We also ask them about their proposal in respect of Irish community. That applies across the board to all services that are licensed but clearly there is a different interpretation on that depending on the type of service. For example, services such as Midwest Radio and Shannonside FM have an interpretation and definition of what constitutes Irish music from their perspective which is different from a Dublin-based music service. The initiative comes from the applicant and that is then embodied in the legislation. It is difficult to see how we can change with that without falling foul of our friends over in Brussels. That is a challenge we would face were we to go down that route. That is the route the Minister——
Is there not scope for more discussion on the definition of Irish music? I acknowledge Mr. O'Keeffe's comments regarding the difference in what constitutes Irish music in the west vis-à-vis contemporary Irish artists in Dublin. Is there not a need for more scoping of what is going on because we have had references to contemporary music, traditional Irish music, country music, folk and other genres? As a lay person, there is a need for greater definition in this debate.
Mr. Michael O’Keeffe
On one level I agree with the Chairman but on another I would raise an issue. I agree there is scope for a debate on a definition. The problem is that if one came up with a definition that by its nature excluded the concept of nationality, namely, the artist being based in Ireland, writing about Ireland or being Irish, this would create a problem and would undermine some of the work being done.
A number of people asked what can be done. Some of the initiatives that can be taken have been mentioned. IMRO has quite a number of initiatives. Mr. Finn mentioned the support it shares with the Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, IBI, and the development of initiatives like the KCLR FM award. The Irish Association of Songwriters, Composers and Authors, IASCA, has also considered developing initiatives like the UK music forum. There are mechanisms through which such initiatives can be addressed and developed.
I would like to put forward possible solutions. We stated the objective of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, was focused on culture and best serving the needs of the people. The authority has only been established a couple of months although it carries forward much of the work previously done by the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland, BCI. It is in the process of developing a strategy statement which will encompass its objectives. There will be public consultation on this which will provide an opportunity for groups like those of Danny McCarthy and others to contribute and make suggestions on mechanisms for increasing, improving and supporting Irish music. However, I would be cautious about how far one can go with legislation because one always runs the risk that the European Union is watching to ensure we do not favour Irish artists over other European artists. Senator Mooney mentioned that basic principle of the Treaty of Rome.
The French have managed to get round this culture, but it is a language issue for them.
Mr. Mick Broderick
On the issue of what defines Irish music, Ms Ní Bhroin mentioned that it could be one thing or another or that it could mean having music recorded in Ireland. REM recorded a recent album in Ireland which could, therefore, be construed as Irish music. That is one of the problems.
Mr. Michael O’Keeffe
That was in the original criteria, the Canadian model mentioned by Senator Mooney. The rationale for including music recorded here was that it supported the industry by supporting jobs in recording studios. Therefore, there is a dimension to that, which was the principle for including it.
Mr. Mick Broderick
But if the definition——
Mr. Michael O’Keeffe
I can see the difficulty with an international group like REM being classed as Irish.
Mr. Mick Broderick
It is not just REM. The Beatles, among others, were also used as part of ——
Mr. Michael O’Keeffe
I understand the criterion of recording in Ireland can be used.
Mr. Mick Broderick
Perhaps the definition of Irish music should be on a cumulative basis and the fact an album is recorded in Ireland should be only one of the criteria for being considered to be Irish. We should set out a number of criteria, perhaps five basic ones such as using Irish artists, recording in Ireland, being of an Irish traditional genre, etc. If three or four of the five criteria were met, the music could then be construed as Irish. However, for it to be any one of the criteria is too loose.
Mr. Michael O’Keeffe
I understand the point.
All of the points raised will form part of the committee's deliberations on the issue. I welcome the statement made by Mr. O'Keeffe that the BAI is preparing a mission statement or policy. I would like to think that this committee will have an input into that.
I want to be fair to everyone and will try to go through some of the other issues. I will mention them in the order in which they were raised. Deputy Deenihan referred to a music forum and Deputy Upton mentioned payment of royalties outside of the State. Who would like to take the question on the music forum?
Ms Angela Dorgan
I will deal with that issue. The difference between a theatre forum and a music forum is that in general all theatre groups and companies have the same basic build, whereas, as members probably realise from this debate today, in music there are industries within the industry — the traditional, the popular, the jazz and the folk music industries. They may be regarded as little cottage industries, all of them with their own resources and methods of live music, accessing radio and shops, and reaching consumers by digital or practical means. There are a number of ways in which our business is different from theatre; therefore, it not as easy to set up such an amazing organisation as Tania Banotti has achieved. Between the three of our organisations who are here and including other organisations such as IRMA and others, there exists a music forum which comes from the art music sector and which includes those organisations and those of us who represent both artists and commercial interests within the industry. We are setting up as an informal talk shop which will prescribe ideas to tackle the top three, top five and top ten. We will have a wish list, a Santa list, so to speak, of what we need to achieve as an industry, and this is in train.
To return to the idea of numbers referred to by Mr. Keith Donald, it is 10,000 direct jobs. The Music Board of Ireland is defunct and possibly we have all learned the lesson in that it was too prescriptive. It was a top-down solution to a bottom-up problem of resourcing, facilitating and looking at the steps any musician has to take in the development of his or her career. The music board report put that number close to 33,000 and that was seven years ago.
Mr. Michael O'Keeffe's definition of Irish music will be addressed in this forum. Ms Sinéad Troy referred to the practical solution for developing future radio audiences. It does no one any good to tell people to stop doing something now or immediately because it is unachievable. The great thing about the IASCA project, with which MMF and FMC are delighted to be involved, is that one is starting now with something that may end up being a solution. Senator Mooney is spot-on that there is usually one person in a local station responsible for this. Our hope is that the intern, project manager or radio station person who can be persuaded by us to become excited about this local project, which is starting at just this half hour, is that he or she will end up being the programme manager. What we are doing is building future audiences but also building future capacity within the radio stations to achieve that goal down the road and in order that we will not be having this conversation in 15 years' time. The practicalities are that we have on the Breaking Tunes website, broken down county by county, approximately 1,730 new Irish bands who have nothing to do with traditional and country music and who are a whole other sector. The good news is that much of this ground work is to make this forum and the IASCA project deliverable in a shorter space from February to August than from August to December. We can then start to move this debate forward towards a conclusion if the joint committee can support our solutions to the problems. The good news is it is all happening out in the ether and in the sector and we are working towards bringing all those ideas together, but it would be amazing to have the committee's support to make those ideas deliverable, achievable and realisable.
What is the association's connection with the Arts Council?
Ms Angela Dorgan
First Music Contact is a national free information and advice resource for the popular music sector. We provide information by means of fact sheets. Bands can come in to consult us. Our website is Breaking Tunes which is an international digital platform for musicians and for promoting opportunities for Irish musicians in terms of broadcasting and advertising. We organise the annual Hard Working Class Heroes music festival.
I am referring to the Arts Council.
Ms Angela Dorgan
We are funded by the Arts Council to be an open association. We find partners for all our projects, for example, Culture Ireland and IMRO, to make the projects deliverable by keeping our doors open and employing our three staff members to develop these projects. We received funding of €100,000 from the Arts Council.
The work of the association is very much in line with our work as Deputies and Senators. It is community work and also in line with the public enthusiasm for arts and music in general. Cross-party support from the committee will be forthcoming.
Ms Jane Bolton
I support what is going on but point out that our side of the industry is incredibly fragmented. We tried to do exactly that five years ago with a company called the Independent Music Producers Association. We tried to get together all the traditional artists in the country under one body to be able to lobby, with singular lack of success. We should try to get together and widen the association, because we do not know of it, in order that we can, perhaps, put the entire Irish industry under one body. That might make much more sense because if we are all operating on different levels, we are not going to get together.
That is one of many good things that have come from the committee. Ms Dorgan has pointed out the diversity and range of music that is available, from jazz to popular to Irish traditional. The challenge is to try to get all those fantastic artists together in some shape or form. Our friends in the back row are trying to get community support for local radio. If the artists are Irish, regardless of the type of music they play, we should try to ensure we do not divide them.
Ms Angela Dorgan
Certainly.
We should not divide our music into categories such as traditional and whatever else. We should focus on Irish artists and support them regardless of the kind of music they play.
I endorse everything Ms Bolton has said. Part of the difficulty in this entire debate has been the fragmentation of the industry itself. In the context of what has been said, I was going to ask whether there had been any liaison between the organisations and record companies. The question has been answered to the effect that there is none. Serious consideration should be given not only to the initiative at the local radio level which has been referred to but even to go so far as to seriously consider presenting the top five or top ten new releases across all the genres as a list of preferred airplay to all the local and national radio stations. I accept it is a question of resources. This is a small country with a small industry regardless of the genre and it is not beyond the competency of the creative people who are present to get together every month. As has been said about the 1,700 bands, the chances are that very few of those have a record deal. They are probably trying to sell their wares on-line through the Internet. There is a chance also that some of those artists might have been of interest to Ms Bolton or a relevant record label. If there is no liaison or co-ordination then what we are doing will not be effective.
I invite Ms Dorgan to make a quick response. I will refer two other questions asked to specific people. One is for IMRO and the other is for Mr. McCarthy.
Ms Angela Dorgan
The short answer is that we are. We are developing Breaking Tunes with partners, Music Network, which would deal more with Ms Bolton's area, and the Improvised Music Company of contemporary music centres. Among the four organisations, First Music Contact's particular remit is popular music. The new forum and alliance we are building will include everyone. Currently, we send the top five acts on Breaking Tunes to radio stations every month. We are adding folk, traditional, classical and contemporary music in phase two of Breaking Tunes. That is in train.
That is important work.
That is positive. The two specific questions that are outstanding are important. Deputy Upton raised the payment of royalties outside the State. She also asked Mr. McCarthy to expand further on the media regulatory body. To be fair I will put those questions. I invite Mr. Finn to respond.
Mr. Victor Finn
I will deal with the payment of international royalties. We must be careful when we quote statistics because, of themselves, they do not mean much. I will explain why. If one looks at the percentage of royalties IMRO pays outside the State, the international nature of the contracts within the music industry mean that some of our biggest, global Irish acts are contracted internationally. That means that within the 85% to 90% figure in any given year, the royalties of many of the biggest Irish acts are paid from outside the State, according to contracts. This means that these moneys are repatriated back to the State at some point by individuals, but IMRO is simply recognising and honouring the international contracts in place. It is a member of the international community of copyright collection societies. Where Irish artists are successful overseas, we depend on all of our affiliates in the international territories to be as vigilant and accurate in their collections and distributions as we are in Ireland. If we have an IMRO member who is successful abroad, we expect the royalties to be collected as efficiently as we collect them here. It is a two-way process. IMRO also receives millions of euro from abroad every year.
The topic of this meeting is supporting the music industry and nurturing new emerging talent. It is very important that we look at the issue of radio airplay. We also need to look ahead. One of the biggest issues facing the industry is the responsibility of Internet service providers in either controlling or licensing the use and transmission of music on our networks. That is something the committee should also examine. The Internet and on-line network may possibly take over from traditional radio transmissions; therefore, if we are looking beyond the current situation, we need to examine that subject also.
We will certainly consider all of these issues because we will have to put our agenda together following the questions raised today. I am pleased that we have made so much progress. Mr. McCarthy was asked about the media regulatory body. Can he expand on the matter?
Mr. Danny McCarthy
I have been looking at a market that nobody has considered, namely, the children's market. There are about 700,000 children under the age of 11 years and there is no programme on national or local radio for them. I bring this issue up because when I was in Australia three years ago, I happened to look on DVD at an act called the Wiggles. I decided to research these guys and set up a band called the Twitters. We are beginning to generate interest because we are bringing folk music to kids. With the support of the Australian Government and through sponsorship, the marketing turnover of that act in 2007 was AU$45 million, a phenomenal amount of money, yet it only started the business in 2005.
I was asked why we should set up a media regulatory body. I believe all bodies, including those discussed here, should be examined. We should look at radio stations, Government representatives and the representatives of each body and all sit down to legislate properly for the future of the music industry on this island. That would be a good way of doing it because we would all be making an input. I do not mind whether they represent rock music, pop music and so on.
I was a civil servant working in Ordnance Survey Ireland and took a career break in 1985. I was able to keep a four-piece band on the road at the time and Larry Gogan was playing our tracks on radio. We received ten awards from various pirate radio stations. The purpose of the regulation of broadcasting was to eradicate piracy, but it did not turn out in the way we had hoped because it was the pirate stations which gave us the greatest support. There were also fantastic programmes on RTE radio at the time, but we needed the pirate stations to reach an audience.
I will conclude by offering the committee an illustration of the problem. A guy called Renaud came here from France last year and recorded an album of Irish folk songs translated into French, including one of my own. The album, entitled "Molly Malone", was number one in the French charts for all of last December and has now sold in excess of 120,000 copies. However, we cannot get airplay for the same product in Ireland.
I hope Mr. McCarthy will receive royalties.
Mr. Danny McCarthy
I certainly will.
Has there been a change in the pub music scene? That was historically a major source of income for groups such as Mr. McCarthy's.
Mr. Danny McCarthy
In the 1980s we had access to pirate radio stations and even "Live at Three", wonderful programmes whose producers engaged with us as professional musicians. That meant we could reach an audience and generate publicity. Speaking recently to the lead singer of my band, we worked out that there were more than 300 venues nationwide during our time on the road which could each accommodate 300 people. That could be replicated today, but only if there was access to media; one cannot get bums on seats if one does not have access to media. I recall playing a gig in Sullivans Hotel in Gort in 1986 at a time when Larry Gogan had played a single we had released. That airplay guaranteed at least another 200 bums on seats for us that night. That is what makes the difference.
An elephant in the room that we have not discussed is the influence of the major international record labels, most of which do not sign Irish artists. The Chairman's son and a handful of others have been fortunate in this regard, but no matter the genre, the challenge of securing a contract with a major label is the single greatest obstacle for Irish artists. The international labels have a dominant role in the supply of their product to local and national radio stations and the independent sector cannot compete with this. This is something that must be considered as part of our broader discussion of the issue. I am interested in whether those who represent the indigenous record industry agree this is an inhibiting factor.
Ms Jane Bolton
That is absolutely correct. Artists signed by independent labels do not stand a chance in music awards, for example, with all due respect to IMRO. Most of the directorships of music bodies are held by the major labels. We are the poor country relations, yet it is to us that the bulk of Irish artists have to come in the first instance. For instance, we put out the early Chieftains albums, but in order to be successful, the band had to sign with a major label because that is what attracts the support and the money. Emerging Irish artists must either put out a record on their own label or come to one of the indigenous record labels. If they get sufficient airplay and become successful, they must move on in order to secure the backing that comes with signing with a major label.
Indigenous labels must be supported in that early stage of the development of emerging artists. The only way to provide that support is to ensure our artists' music is given air time in order that we can sell albums and build funds in order to sign the next guy. We are not recording. Our catalogue is archival and very important from the nation's point of view, including recordings by Seán Ó Riada and Leo Rowsome. These artists would not have been recorded without the support of local labels. They are not money spinners, but they are very important.
As for my son, he had his moment in the sun, but that is history. He is a struggling artist——
I was merely using him as an example of an indigenous artist, with whom everyone would be familiar.
I know.
Essentially, it was a compliment——
He will be touring Europe with Tindersticks shortly.
——in that everyone knows who he is. Moreover, the Chairman had nothing to do with my mentioning of him.
On a serious note, I declared my interest. While I do not particularly wish to discuss my own situation, now that the Senator has raised it, I note that my experience has made me conscious that one can become a major star with some international labels but many become individual performers. Many artists, many of whom I know, are trying to do it their own way, which is fantastic. Collectively, they are a great bunch and we wish them well.
To summarise, I thank all the delegates for their attendance and will refer to a number of positive aspects of the meeting. The interaction between everyone was fantastic. Although Mr. O'Keeffe and Ms Ní Bhroin were under the spotlight for a period, they informed members that the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland was re-examining its policy statement, a highly important point. Obviously, the authority welcomes inputs from the delegates and members.
The work of the bodies represented by Ms Troy and Ms Dorgan at community level to promote local artists to the community is supported by the joint committee. Members wish them well in this regard and will be glad to provide support or interact further with them.
The joint committee will follow up on the suggestion made by Deputy Deenihan with a view to doing some concrete work. Deputy Upton is correct to note this is the joint committee's second meeting on the issue and members have heard from all the key parties. We were anxious that the delegates should appear before it, especially Mr. McCarthy who had been knocking on the door for a long time, as well as all the other delegates who have had important things to say. Our job is to be helpful to and supportive of our artists. Ms Dorgan has made the point that making music is different from the theatre in many respects and more diverse. However, this meeting has helped to bring together such diversity because the common objective is to support the large number of Irish artists from whatever genre and wherever they are involved.
I again thank the delegates for their attendance. I propose that members get on with their work and that the delegates continue to interact with them.
The joint committee adjourned at 4.50 p.m. sine die.