JOINT COMMITTEE ON TOURISM, CULTURE, SPORT, COMMUNITY, EQUALITY AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 17 Nov 2010

Intercultural Society: Discussion

Chairman

I welcome Ms Miriam Hederman O'Brien, chairperson of the project steering group of the Irish committee of the European Cultural Foundation, Mr. Timothy King, a member of the project steering group, and Mr. Reginald Okoflex Inya from the New Communities Partnership.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise nor make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Our topic for discussion today is how people live in an intercultural society. A former member of this committee, the new Minister of State at the Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Mary Alexandra White, has been given responsibility for this important area. While it is safe to say we have an old and distinguished culture, modern Ireland also has a new and evolving culture which is being influenced by the many different peoples who have come here to make this country their home. I warmly welcome these new influences, which add greatly to our national richness of culture and diversity and make for an interesting and open society.

Members of the committee have a strong interest in sports. As a former teacher, it is encouraging to see pictures of school teams which include a mix of new members of our society. I congratulate Joseph Ndo, a player for Sligo Rovers and a former international footballer for Cameroon, on being proclaimed man of the match in last Sunday's cup final.

Our multicultural society presents significant challenges to all of us but we have been an independent nation for almost 100 years and we should continue to work towards an open and inclusive society as a suitable mark of respect for the ideals of our founding mothers and fathers. The 1916 Proclamation states: "The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally". The nation now includes citizens of many different origins who have the right to be cherished in the spirit of the proclamation by which we declared ourselves a nation.

Ms Miriam Hederman O’Brien

We appreciate the opportunity to address the committee. I will be brief to allow members to tell us what areas they wish to explore further. The European Cultural Foundation is an independent not for profit foundation established in 1984 by a distinguished assortment of people, including Ken Whitaker and others who will be well known to the committee. I will not attempt to name the other the individuals involved for fear of leaving somebody out. The foundation was apolitical in that it supported European projects on oral tradition, archaeology and other cultural matters. Coincidentally, some of us were quite pro-European but that was a different issue.

Between 2001 and 2006, the issues of attitudes to migration and interaction between communities became important in Europe and to us. The project which we are discussing today was initiated in part by the then Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs with responsibility for integration, Deputy Conor Lenihan, who asked us to undertake a series of conversations to highlight emerging social and cultural issues between the Irish population and newcomers. One may ask why we would begin a conversation given that we are always talking. I should not use the word "plethora" because it might imply criticism, but certainly there is an enormous volume of academic and non-academic reports into the issues, recent and not so recent. The method can be evaluated and the evaluation of the method is accessible. The idea was to highlight emerging social and cultural issues between the Irish-born population and the newcomers. It was intended that the information coming from the conversations would have fed into the task force on integration, which did not materialise. The Minister of State with responsibility for integration, Deputy Conor Lenihan, told me he had meetings throughout the country. However, if the Minister of State has anything, it is a wish list with which he has been presented. What is being proposed would identify what people are experiencing and what they want and need.

Six of these local conversations took place during 2008, in Dublin city, Limerick, Cork, Dundalk, Tallaght and Sligo. Participation was by invitation only. Participants were not there in a representative capacity but we went to the representatives and asked them to recommend somebody to take part. Inevitably, people filled several functions at the same time; there was a teacher who was also in the local GAA, and a working woman who was also a parent and in the school parents' association. There is always an overlap, and because this was a small group the interaction and overlapping was able to be explored. There is an average of 13 people in each local conversation, 25 nationalities participated, and 50% of participants were Irish. The conversation format encouraged participants to share their personal experiences and opinions and to come to rough conclusions and recommendations.

In 2009, we held a national conversation to draw on the issues that had emerged from the local conversations. This group comprised leaders and specialists from civic society organisations and it ranged from business, sport, health and religious groups. The resulting conversation identified possible institutional responses to the gaps which had been identified. It is alright to identify the gaps but then one must state how one will fill them.

This moved it onto the next stage, and in February 2010 we saw the economic situation had changed dramatically since we had started. We examined what changes had taken place and we called on the people who had been there and others. This particular conversation, which was on a national scale, considered policy actions to ensure schools' integration of newcomers to Ireland. In June, we held a national conference to highlight the results of the project. We are very fortunate in that President Mary McAleese is our patron and she launched it. She has been a most supportive patron of the Irish committee.

I have the report with me which is written quite simply. I suppose what emerges from the recommendations is that certain leading issues exist, the first of which is that political leadership is needed to promote intercultural issues. Somebody has to state this must be done. Another issue raised in the documentation is that ethnic background would help with planning and service delivery; it is vital that staff and volunteers are trained in information gathering. Inefficiency is also an issue. I know the term "joined up" is overused but public service planning, the sharing of best practice, more efficient use of resources for intercultural work and efficiency are required, whether in processing permits, which the committee knows all about, or residency applications. We should create organised ways for intercultural dialogue. Obviously, the Minister of State with responsibility for integration should take the lead but this should be supported locally by local authorities, statutory agencies and civil society groups. This is the kernel of the report.

Mr. Reginald Okoflex Inya, has taken part in this and has just returned from Donegal - not electioneering he assures me - where he was explaining how it came about. Mr. Timothy King is an economist; we will not hold that against him, he is a very different economist. We are all on the steering group and we will be glad to assist the committee.

Chairman

We must agree on how we want to structure the meeting. Do Mr. King and Mr. Okoflex Inya wish to make some brief comments before I ask committee members to pose questions?

Mr. Timothy King

Perhaps my colleague would like to do so.

Mr. Reginald Okoflex Inya

The discussion will be rich enough based on the account Ms Hederman O'Brien has given. If there is anything we can explain further, we will take it from there.

Chairman

I thank Ms Hederman O'Brien for outlining how the steering group has gone about its work in a very structured and inclusive way. We commend its members for that. I thank Ms Hederman O'Brien also for the economy of her words. She was very focused. The group has arrived at a number of recommendations which I am sure we, as a committee, will endorse, I will anyway. The next question is what we as a committee can do, apart from giving the group a chance to publicly air its recommendations. An obvious thing to do, and we will do it, is to engage in dialogue with the Minister of State, Deputy Mary White, in the follow-up to this meeting. This is my suggestion, but I am in the hands of the committee. Deputy White is a former member of the committee who was a very active member. The best thing I can do is to invite my colleagues to pose questions or make comments to the delegation.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I welcome the delegation and thank Ms Hederman O'Brien for her presentation. The report is very interesting and its conclusions are far reaching, particular the over-reaching recommendations, given that we are now living in a culturally diverse community. As the report states, it is important that we collectively facilitate and promote interculturalism. This must be our starting point.

I know from my involvement with Cork City Council that it was one of the first local authorities to have an integration strategy, which was called "connecting communities". With the Chairman's permission, I will pay tribute to the Cois Tine group in Cork city, which is funded by the SMA Fathers' justice office. Fr. Angelo Lafferty and his team do a great deal of work in Cork on interculturalism. They take the Gospel message of welcoming the stranger into building communities, and this is what we should be doing. It is about people, and making people feel welcome and involved and giving them autonomy. We need planning in this area more than ever before. We are in an economically challenging time and often we hear disparaging remarks about the new members of Irish communities and this is wrong. Integration is vital, and it must be phased and planned. The implementation of the strategy must be at the coalface. Do we lack leadership from local and central government to implement a proper planned integration strategy?

The Chairman referred to sport. Sport is a great facilitator. In my club in Bishopstown, people have become involved who would not otherwise have done so. We have new players. Sport breaks down barriers and acts as a welcoming and friendly environment.

As a former teacher, I am concerned about education services and I hope language support will not become an easy target in the budget. We need to allow our schools, teachers and students the opportunity to grow in confidence and to become part of a vibrant school community. Language support for children in our formal education system must be maintained. Tremendous progress has been made in the education system and I hope it will continue post the budget.

The report is interesting, in particular in regard to the case studies with the HSE and the Football Association of Ireland. I would like to a hear a comment on the approach of the HSE and other statutory bodies.

I am struck by the issue of conversation. This must be about conversation and the theme is well chosen. I compliment the delegation.

Deputy Jack Wall

I, too, welcome the delegation. It is very important it gets a good hearing. I second the Chairman's proposal to invite the Minister in to reflect on the proposals before us. We could then revert to the delegation and perhaps invite it in again in the new year to reflect on the situation, especially after the budget, and to see what focus we can put on the development of the theme.

We all talk from our own perspectives. Integration takes place at the coalface which is the villages, towns and cities where non-nationals and nationals seek to work and play together. When I look out the window, I see children of every nationality running up the street, playing and having conversations. Non-national adults - I do not like using the word "non-national" - do not seem to have integrated as well as the children. Sometimes when non-national parents come to me looking for assistance, they bring one of their children. If I closed my eyes, I would think the child had been in Athy all his or her life. The children are brilliant English speakers and have no problem presenting their case. They are full of confidence, but their parents have language difficulties and they perhaps a little bit withdrawn. Because of the abilities of the children as a result of the knowledge and language they acquire in schools, I am sure we will see a major improvement in integration within a short period. Reading the Kildare newspapers and listening to the local radio, I am delighted that I have not noted any racism. I have yet to come across a case of racism. That is a huge step forward with regard to integration.

As the Chairman and Senator Buttimer said, sport is part and parcel of integration. There is nothing as good as sport and recreation. I see children with skateboards playing together and going to school together. The wonderful thing about childhood is that children can adapt so quickly. I hope we will see that integration happen with the adult population because that is the biggest problem. Adults seem to be slightly shy in coming forward. In some instances, they are on school boards but, generally, they are not as forthcoming in terms of integration as children. In my local football club, which is a rural one in Castlemitchell, it is wonderful to see the children playing. Their parents come to watch them but they still do not make that next move to become involved in the club. That will change quickly because the children will encourage that change. We will see that change in this generation.

We must keep our shoulder to the wheel and keep in contact with the delegation in terms of the effort it is making. We must work with every organisation in which we, as public representatives, are involved to ensure we work towards expanding our culture. There is scope for games such as cricket at which we in Ireland are probably not as good as we believe. One can see the scope we will have given that there are 25 nationalities. There will even be scope in regard to children's games. It is a great movement and we must work with it. As Senator Buttimer said, we must work through local authorities. Everyone must put forward the view that this is good for society and that integration is good for the Irish. That is what it is about. It is not really about money; it is about hard work in communities, irrespective of what they have.

On Monday I had a visit from one of the religious organisations representing non-nationals. I hate using the word "non-national" because it does not sound right. The organisation will hold a religious ceremony in Athy which will bring 10,000 people to the town. It is looking for planning permission to ensure that happens. The event will be held over one week. The population will benefit because hotels and so on will have to be booked. That is part of integration.

While the delegation is presenting a national approach, most of the work will be done at local level at the coalface. Groups, irrespective of the sport or recreation, must ensure it happens in their area. When that happens, it will spread throughout all communities and the nation.

I congratulate the delegation and I hope our views reflect the support we wish to give. I am sure the Minister will be open-minded in this regard and will help in every way possible.

Deputy Mary Upton

I would like to say céad míle fáilte to the delegation and thank it for its presentation. Dr. Hederman O'Brien was quite right that because of the current economic climate, now more than ever, we have a greater responsibility to ensure the services and supports in place are maintained. It is our responsibility as public representatives to maintain proportionate support for those services as they will be hugely important.

I absolutely support the idea that the Minister should act as a public champion in this area. She must take responsibility for it and lead the way. If that were to happen, the other statutory agencies would kick in behind that, but it is important that the Minister acts a public champion.

We all tend to be a little parochial about all the issues that are raised but in my constituency of Dublin South-Central there are a large number of different cultural groups and there are also good support services. There is a good intercultural group, which I believe Ms Hederman O'Brien mentioned in her presentation but I cannot find the reference to it, the Canal Communities Intercultural Group. It does excellent work. It has carried out a number of surveys and worked hard to identify what different cultural groups would like, how that can be integrated into wider communities and how it can offer those supports. I am in touch with it fairly regularly on a number of issues.

That kind of group is important. It has been good in the way it has managed its finances and so on. It makes the best use of whatever resources are available to it, for which it should be applauded. I have looked at how it manages the system and the effort to which its members go to engage not only with children, because in many ways that is relatively easier, but with the parents, who pose a challenge, particularly those who have come to this country who cannot speak English. That is a huge difficulty.

If the schools, through after school programmes or parents' groups, could be encouraged and supported and parents were brought more in touch with what goes on in school life, that would be helpful. All parents are concerned about how their children are educated and they will want to support their education, but it is difficult for them if they do not understand what they are being asked to do in supporting their children in doing their homework or turning up a parents' day. The schools that are in a position to do so make a big effort - certainly, this is true of the schools of which I am aware in my area - to be as inclusive as possible with the parents of different nationalities.

I support everything that has been said about sport. It is hugely important. I am aware of SARI and the work Brian Kerr has been doing. A point that they would make is that boys integrate much better when it comes to sport, but girls are much less likely to do so. That is a pity.

Ms Miriam Hederman O’Brien

That is absolutely true.

Deputy Mary Upton

That is just the way it is. The delegates should consider other activities that would encourage girls to participate, be it line dancing, ballet or whatever it takes. Sport is excellent because it connects to many different aspects of society. It would be worthwhile considering such activities to provide for girls as well.

The local sports partnerships are good. In 2009, some 6% of their LSP programme was targeted at minority groups. We should encourage that because the local sports partnerships have been effective and good in many areas. We will have to look out for the girls as well.

I wish to raise a point regarding education. I have had a good deal of contact with Filipino groups and that is reflective of my constituency where quite a number of Filipinos work in Our Lady's Children's Hospital in Crumlin. A matter was brought to my attention recently. Some of these parents' children are going on to third level and this is related to a point referred to in the report, that of the efficiency in processing permits, residency applications and basically getting an Irish passport. If people are ready to go on to third level and have got their CAO points and will be accepted by colleges, the fees payable are those that apply to people who are not Irish. They are huge fees. Even if these people get their passports in year two, once they are registered in year one as not being Irish, they are obliged to pay the full fee for the three or four years of the duration of their courses. I do not know what we can do about that but it is very unfair. It was pointed out to me this year in a case which I was dealing that the parents could cope with the fees for the first year by putting all their resources together but it would be a huge burden if their child had to bear the same level of fees through into years two, three and four, even though their teenager or young adult had by that time obtained an Irish passport. We should examine that requirement to see if it could be adjusted and brought back to some level of reality on behalf of those students.

The delegates might comment on the efficiency in processing permits. I have some concerns about this. I have been told that it takes 24 to 26 months to process an application. Perhaps there is one application here or there involving issues which it is difficult to process but it is unacceptable at this stage that applicants should have to wait two years for a response. There must be some way that process can be speeded up. The delegates might comment on that. I thank them for their presentation.

Chairman

I will make a few comments before I ask the delegates to respond. I commend the delegates on the format of their report and the way they went about their work. The local conversations they engaged in over a lengthy period represented an important exercise. We did some work on a 20-year plan for the Irish language, although a direct parallel could probably not be drawn between it and this exercise. We spoke to people in communities and the work we did on that plan is recognised as having been valuable because it was inclusive. I see a parallel in the work and the work the delegates have done.

The recommendations on foot of this work are important and I might refer to a number of them. Some were referred to already in regard to sport and education. Will the delegates expand on their views on some of the areas covered? They refer to employment and given the recession, it is an important point to discuss. The report states:

Although new migrants were disproportionately employed in relatively low-wage occupations and service sectors - such as hotels, restaurants, retail and unskilled construction - National Employment Survey figures showed that, within sectors, there was relatively little difference between the earnings of Irish and foreign workers. Average hourly earnings of foreign nationals were similar to those of their Irish counterparts ...

We have a sense that there is anecdotal evidence that there is some discrimination in regard to employment. The delegates might comment on that. A related point is the recession. How much of an impact has the recession had on Ireland's non-national population? The delegates have some figures on that.

Housing and planning is another area about which we need to be careful and to make sure we get that right. Did this area emerge as a major theme in these conversations?

There are some frank references, and rightly so, to issues that are prevalent throughout the world with regard to the immigrant community, those of racism, xenophobia. I note that in Sligo, Cork and Dublin the delegates focused on these issues. The report states:

In all of these conversations, participants from new communities recounted instances of abuse and racism. In one case, the conversation heard that racism had manifested itself in an unprovoked physical attack on a participant from an African country. At the Tallaght conversation, there was recognition that migrants from Central Europe were received better than their counterparts from African communities.

These are real issues. I welcome the fact that the delegates had these frank discussions because that is the only way we will get to deal with these issues. The delegates might want to refer further to those issues.

The report makes some important references to some initiatives that have been taken. I would like to add my voice in support of such initiatives. As a former Minister with responsibility for development and human rights, I am aware that events such as Africa Day and Chinese New Year are important. I presume the delegates would agree that there is room for more of those events at which there can be a public expression of integration.

The arts is also an important area. One of this committee's areas of responsibilities is the arts. It is an area in which there is a great deal of expression of multiculturalism. The arts is another good way to advance the delegates' agenda. I thank them for their work. It is unfinished business. I have made a proposal, which has been seconded, and we have agreed that our next step, as a committee, is to have our own conversation with the Minister to see what work we can do. I can assure them we will do that following this discussion.

Ms Miriam Hederman O’Brien

Do my colleagues want to speak on any issue because I do not want to hog the debate?

Mr. Reginald Okoflex Inya

I thank the Chairman and Deputies for their comments. This is a project which, I, as an immigrant, believe is important for immigrants. It gives some legitimate backing to anecdotal issues. Given its anecdotal side, people may argue that it is just a statement. Ms Hederman O'Brien referred to the work of the canal communities intercultural centre. That is one of the areas where we want to see open space to enable immigrants to get together to know what they have. I was strategically involved in the development of the project in Inchicore.

We discussed the issue of residency and passport applications and Ms Hederman O'Brien stated maybe there is a hero somewhere. What a multicultural society such as Ireland needs more than anything is this kind of leadership, a champion who will state that Ireland is an intercultural society and we must value people, regardless of their colour or race. We must give people a chance to prove who they are and whether they are good or bad, so to speak.

Certain issues arise regarding passport and citizenship applications and other matters. There are many bottlenecks in these processes which applicants do not understand. We are working on the ground to identify how we can make the processes much simpler. If a person's application is refused, he or she must believe that the process was fair, not that the system was unfair. Something needs to be done on this issue, which brings us back to the issue of leadership.

There is a great deal of discretion available in the application process and a certain mindset prevails. We have met a couple of individuals from the Department who have a different understanding of what citizenship means to immigrants. As Ms Hederman O'Brien stated, most of the immigrants who come here want to stay and want their children to have the best possible opportunities, as do the parents of other Irish children. This is just one aspect of the issue. For example, someone whose parents may have lived and worked here for more than ten years may wish to attend university but is unable to qualify for citizenship. This has happened. Children in such circumstances must pay international student fees despite their parents living and working here. If they are lucky they will be asked to pay the international student fee but first they must navigate the system.

The integration of ethnic minorities into society primarily requires a change of mindset in Departments and service providers. The issue is not one of putting huge resources into the system but one of mindset. Those providing services and working at counters must understand they are providing a service and it is intended for people who come from different countries. They must also understand that some immigrants who come to the counter will not have good English language skills. This could create a barrier to having an appropriate discussion when they try to assess the rights and entitlements of the person in question. Addressing this requires a change of mindset and joined up thinking in the Departments.

On employment, research is necessary to determine how qualified immigrants are. This type of information is an asset to the State as it allows it to put in place structures to get the best value from those who have made Ireland their home. The ESRI has done research in this area. Research was also done to find out what would happen if a person applied for the same job under two different names, one associated with an ethnic minority and the other associated with Irish people. It found that the person with a name indicating he or she was from an ethnic minority would often not be called for interview while the person with the assumed name with exactly the same qualifications would be called for interview. This tells us that the problem is one of mindset and nothing else. For this reason, leadership is very important in changing mindsets.

How can people who seek Irish citizenship be really and truly Irish regardless of their colour? They want to be truly Irish and would take pride in having an Irish passport. Why can the system not be made simple and straightforward? Why should people be given the impression that citizenship is a privilege and they should be grateful for obtaining it or that they do not need citizenship to live here? Other people need citizenship to live in Ireland and we believe people need it if they are to identify with the State and its institutions.

People who apply for citizenship must realise that it creates duties and responsibilities. We must ascertain how we make immigrants realise that citizenship does not only involve being issued with a passport. We do not seek to make citizenship cheap or to devalue the rules that apply to it but to have a procedure established that stands up to best practice.

Much work is taking place in the area of employment - for example, the workplace anti-racism and discrimination week - but more is needed. The report makes practical recommendations. Having been involved in the report, I saw people identify simple, practical steps.

Deputy Jack Wall, who has left the meeting, should not be worried about what he describes as non-nationals. We are happy to be referred to as immigrants or ethnic minorities but not as non-nationals. We may not have Irish nationality but we all have nationality.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

That is a very good point.

Mr. Reginald Okoflex Inya

The term "non-nationals" is unacceptable.

The report makes practical recommendations which could be easily implemented at little cost. We ask members to support it. We are on the ground and are ready to continue with our work. We know the recession will be over some time but we need to have a strong society in which everyone can play his or her part.

Chairman

I share Mr. Okoflex Inya's views on the use of the term "non-national". It is used in the report but we will ensure it is not used in our next report.

Ms Miriam Hederman O’Brien

I was asked, albeit much more politely and obliquely, what we were looking for in terms of leadership. We want members to ask themselves what they can do. Action is needed at local level. If we were to get this right, it would be of enormous benefit. To address the problems arising in the area of social welfare and so forth, one could replicate the IDA approach of providing a one-stop-shop for companies. One could have a one-stop-shop for the administration of a range of issues. The system must be made coherent and people must be required to talk to each other. Such a reform would benefit everyone. While political leadership is necessary and it is a political issue in the correct and most fundamental sense, it is not a party political issue.

We cannot make this change because we do not have political clout. I met the Minister who was charming and soothing but this matter has to be addressed at a wider level. While I accept members of the joint committee face many demands, I ask them to enthuse themselves with regard to this issue. We have a terrible habit in this country of starting to address problems only after a disaster occurs.

Thankfully, we have not had a disaster in this area and we should avoid having one.

Chairman

In summary, I thank the witnesses for this presentation. Members listened carefully to what Mr. Okoflex Inya had to say followed by Ms Hederman O'Brien's comments. She has challenged members and I thank her for that. The report is both highly focused and practical and members will take up Ms Hederman O'Brien's challenge because this joint committee has a wide remit, encompassing arts, sport, tourism and community affairs. Even its title is too long and I sometimes shorten it depending on the issue with which members are dealing.

However, I am pleased the witnesses had an opportunity to appear before the joint committee. Although the meeting was short, it did not need to continue for any longer. The witnesses have challenged members who in turn have put forward one suggestion, which is that I have proposed to invite the Minister to appear before the joint committee. However, the joint committee will do more than this because Ms Hederman is correct that more than one leader is needed in this regard. It must involve both the Government and the Opposition and incidentally, this joint committee is a non-partisan forum. Members certainly will take up Ms Hederman O'Brien's challenge. I believe she has secured a commitment from those are present and we will extend it further to continue with this agenda. The witnesses have done tremendous, painstaking but worthwhile work. However, I completely agree that members must raise their game and the joint committee will do so as best it can. I make the commitment that it will do so by including this agenda as part of its work programme for the coming year. Obviously, the joint committee will keep in touch with witnesses.

Mr. Reginald Okoflex Inya

Will the joint committee keep in touch with the foundation?

Chairman

Yes, with the foundation. I again thank the witnesses.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.10 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 1 December 2010.