JOINT COMMITTEE ON TOURISM, CULTURE, SPORT, COMMUNITY, EQUALITY AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Dec 2010

Role and Functions: Discussion with Athletics Ireland

Chairman

I welcome from Athletics Ireland Mr. Liam Hennessy, president, Mr. John Foley, chief executive officer, and Professor Ciaran Ó Catháin, chairman of finance and risk.

I wish to advise the witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given, and they are asked to respect parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members of the committee have absolute privilege. However, I wish to remind them of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

As Chairman of the committee I wish to make a few brief opening comments before the delegation speaks about the Athletic Ireland. Our interest as a committee is to ensure that taxpayers' money is used wisely, effectively and efficiently in promoting athletics at every level throughout the country. We all agree that Ireland has a strong reputation in athletics, particularly in running. I have no doubt the recent success of our under-23 cross-country running team will give a great boost to athletics in the country. There are many other examples of this as we have shared in the glory of many fantastic athletes over many years.

As I stated, our focus is on athletics. I am a new Chairman of the committee, and it is sad that we have had one dispute too many in recent times at the organisational level of sport. It is something to which we would like to see an end. We are anxious to look to the future and that is what today is about. Previously, we met John Treacy, CEO, and Kieran Mulvey, chairman, of the Irish Sports Council. We made the point to them that we want to see the end of costly disputes, proper management procedures put in place and good governance in sporting organisations. We are not speaking about one particular organisation and we asked John Treacy to forward us details of the number of disputes and the costs involved and we are awaiting his response. We feel that transparency is very important in this regard. We are anxious to clear up any outstanding issues while we move on to a new agenda in athletics.

Today, we want to hear from the witnesses on their vision and strategy for the future. However, one important issue needs to be clarified before we start. We do not want to initiate a court-type procedure - that is not what we are about - but we are a statutory Oireachtas committee and we have had a long-standing practice of hearing various views. However, we recognise we have an important role with regard to the promotion of sports and athletics.

Prior to my appointment as Chairman of the committee, when my colleague, Deputy Michael Kennedy, was Chairman, Mr. Liam Hennessy with others attended a meeting of this committee in June 2009. As we are now aware, in the course of proceedings with regard to the Mary Coghlan court case it is alleged - and I stress that - in certain documentation that Mr. Hennessy stated he had prevaricated and spoofed, or some language to that effect, when he attended that particular meeting. Again, I was not Chairman at the time. We need clarification on this matter from the delegation before we get down to hearing its plans for the future.

It is fair to say the committee was very encouraged and impressed by the presentation made by Mr. Kieran Mulvey, the new chairman of the Irish Sports Council, when he came before the committee. We believe he shares our view that we need to put in place procedures to prevent disputes in particular and robust dispute resolution mechanisms and procedures where problems emerged that will keep people out of the courts and save taxpayers' money and ensure that resources and not spent on disputes but rather on promoting athletics and our athletes. We have seen many cases of fantastic people who are crying out for this to happen.

I wish to give Mr. Hennessy an opportunity to clarify this matter before we do anything else. If such comments were made we would take serious exception to them as an Oireachtas committee. I propose to give Mr. Liam Hennessy an opportunity to clarify this matter. In the interest of fairness, I must tell the delegation we intend to invite Mary Coghlan to address this committee early in the new year on the subject of good governance in sport, and we agreed this in private session prior to the beginning of this meeting.

I make these opening remarks because anyone who follows the proceedings of the committee will be aware that we are huge lovers of sports and athletics. In this case, we have only one focus, which is as a committee to ensure that athletics is in a healthy and transparent state. We are conscious of the huge public support for this area. I have never seen this as a secondary committee or as a committee of lesser importance than any other committee of the House. I know from my time as Minister of State with responsibility for labour affairs that Kieran Mulvey is very much in tune with the need for procedures on dealing with problems. We want to get away from all of this. I have only a certain amount of time left in the Dáil and it is one of my objectives to see this out of the way.

Whenever one has to deal with challenging issues the last thing one does is bury stuff under the carpet, leave it and state, "that was then and this is now" and other such nonsense. We cannot do so. I stated the same when representatives of the Irish Sports Council appeared before the committee. We need to get this clarified. If the clarification meets our satisfaction then so be it. In such a situation we will move on. I state this in good faith to Mr. Hennessy, Mr. Foley and Professor Ó Catháin. I am doing my best to speak for the committee. We do not want to open up new proceedings if at all possible. I am conscious that my colleague, Deputy Michael Kennedy, was the Chairman at the time and I am a new Chairman, but I feel obliged, out of respect for the committee, to get clarification on this. On this basis, I will hand over to Mr. Hennessy and I trust he will accept it on this basis. If we can get clarification on this we will be in a very good position to hear about his plans for the future.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

I thank the Chairman and I concur with everything he stated. It is exactly our position. I must go through the statement I will make today but we fully concur with what the Chairman stated.

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it. This year, 2010, has been very busy for athletics in Ireland. In appearing here today I want to emphasise the achievements that have been attained in the sport, as recently as this past weekend when our men's under-23 team won the European cross-country championships and Fionnuala Britton came so close to taking a bronze medal in the women's event. At the same time, I welcome the opportunity to deal directly with the impact, aftermath and response to some less positive issues in the administration of athletics that have been of justifiable concern to the committee over the past 18 months.

The specific events that made these issues a matter of public comment were concluded in March this year before the President of the High Court. For the association, which dealt with them at our biannual general congress in April, they are now behind us and we are moving on. Regrettably however, they are the subject of continuing correspondence and comment. While we have not in any way led or contributed to such comments, the Athletics Association of Ireland and I personally have been referred therein and I want to address with the committee some of the commentary arising and to correct the record in respect of things that have been said or that were alleged to have been said about me and about this committee.

I am accompanied today by the chief executive of Athletics Ireland, Mr. John Foley, and by the chairman of our finance and risk committee and deputy president, Professor Ciarán Ó Catháin, who is also president of Athlone IT. Both of my colleagues have been appointed to their positions in the past year. I can say with certainty that their presence and experience have considerably enhanced the governance of the sport. They will speak about current activity in Athletics Ireland.

I have been involved as a volunteer in the administration of athletics for the best part of 40 years. It is my passion and I am driven and inspired by the view that the athletes and their efforts to achieve their potential, be that recreational or competitive, are what it is all about, and should only be about, for any sporting organisation. For us it is about ensuring on the one hand that the maximum number of people, and particularly young people, are facilitated and nurtured in their interest to partake in athletics, which is a healthy and satisfying form of recreation. At the other end of the scale it is about ensuring that our elite athletes are facilitated in achieving their potential on the international stage. The two goals are intimately interlinked and that is why last Sunday's victory will inspire our youth.

It is a source of immense regret for me that from mid-2008 through 2009 and into this year, events in Athletics Ireland distracted us from that focus. I will return to a number of individual issues pertaining to the specific dispute which led us to the High Court after dealing with governance in our sport generally. I recognise this is the substantive concern of the committee given the support the taxpayer provides annually to our budget.

We acknowledge that when we were last before the committee, issues arose in respect of structures, processes and management of relations with our major stakeholders, including the Irish Sports Council as manager of our funding channel. Since then, we have enhanced the professional capacity of the organisation. We have been fortunate to secure the services of Mr. Foley, who has a long and distinguished track record as a professional business manager. We have also renewed our volunteer leadership, including the election of board members independent of the constituent bodies of the sport. This is an important element of the balance needed in the governance of the association.

I will ask Mr. Foley, as chief executive, to outline current progress across the sport so that members can appreciate the work now being delivered successfully and consistently. Professor Ó Catháin will outline the commitment of the organisation to maintaining the governance and controls that are essential to responsible and effective deployment of the valuable funding we receive from taxpayers through the Irish Sports Council.

As president, my focus is on leading the effective delivery by Athletics Ireland of its mandate for athletes of all backgrounds and we hope in that respect to have many more weekends like the one just past. However, I want to address specific issues arising from my last appearance before the committee in June 2009. I am aware from the comments made by the Chairman at a previous meeting of the committee that members feel they have been wronged. I also have been wronged arising out of the meeting and that wrong has been repeated without correction. It is important, therefore, that this issue be addressed. At the meeting in June 2009, the association found itself with a number of issues to address, the most high profile of which was an emerging breakdown of relations with our then CEO. It was my hope at the time that we could address these issues without opening them to discussion with third parties. In some cases, the discussions around those issues took place on a confidential basis and in the interest of arriving at a fair outcome I believed I had a responsibility to maintain that confidentiality rather than speculate in any way that might be misconstrued as attributing responsibility for the sequence of events that led us to that point. Notwithstanding that sense of obligation, I sought to answer the questions raised as completely and honestly as I could without damaging the affairs of the association.

Subsequent to the committee meeting it was alleged that I had told a meeting of the Athletics Ireland board that I "spoofed and prevaricated" throughout the meeting here. That report was repeated by others in the courts, in correspondence to third parties, to this committee in October 2010 and in the media last weekend. I used the word "prevaricate" during the meeting of the committee when, in reply to Deputy Olivia Mitchell, I indicated that by virtue of the specific question she asked me being the subject of a confidential legal negotiation, I was not at liberty to answer her. I stated:

I am not at liberty to give details ... It can be difficult when legal constraints apply and it may seem that we are prevaricating but this is quite difficult. We want to be as open and honest as we possibly can.

These were the words I used before the committee and I reported to my board in similar terms.

As to the allegation that I "spoofed", it is not a word that appears in my lexicon. I assure the committee that I did not say or think it. It has also been alleged that I lied to the committee about the availability of funds to meet legal costs that might accrue. Again, I refute that accusation in the strongest terms. I acknowledge that I was not as well informed of the scale or organisation of the association's finances as a witness to the committee should have been. I regret that the information was inaccurate but it was given to the committee in good faith. However, this is entirely different to the accusation that I knowingly gave false information. I did not and I never would do so.

I welcome the opportunity to address these two issues. The existence and repetition of these allegations have hurt athletics generally, the administration of the sport in particular and my family and me most of all. It has been particularly hurtful that they should be repeated so readily and accepted as truth without reference to me for verification. I hope after today this will no longer be the case.

I have spent the past 32 years working without a break on various boards of Athletics Ireland. I was re-elected under a democratic process on every occasion. During that period, I have undertaken every conceivable role within the association, including some at the highest level. I served as national public relations officer for four years and national secretary for eight years. The latter was an important role for the organisation at a time when no professional people were involved in the sport. I spend six years as international secretary, during which time I established a new high performance programme under conditions of extreme difficulties but with considerable support from the Irish Sports Council. I take considerable pride in the fact that the programme is now functioning effectively. I have led and delivered projects of all sorts to the highest of professional standards at a time when we had no professional staff. I did this willingly and with great enthusiasm and pride.

The past 18 months have had an enormously negative impact on me. It has cast a long shadow over the enjoyment I have taken from athletics and robbed me of much of the pleasure that accrued from my involvement. That said, I assure members that I am determined this will not be my legacy. I will do everything in my power between now and April 2012, when I cease to be president, to ensure these issues are put behind us.

I now ask our chief executive, Mr. Foley, to address the current standing of the sport and the work being done to meet the objectives that we all agree are most important.

Chairman

I wish to make a brief comment before Mr. Foley begins. Mr. Hennessy made an important statement. This committee operates under a statutory process. The witness would understand that it is not a personal hurt that we are concerned with but we all represent our constituents and are part of various political parties. I read the reports of what happened then and they upset the committee as a unit. To a certain extent it left us feeling confused as to what was going on.

The witness has come here today and I accept what he has said in good faith. To go back over what he has said, he has outlined the reference to "prevaricate" and its background. I must accept that as it has been outlined. He denied using the word "spoofed" as he said it is not part of his lexicon. I accept that and we live in a democracy, which I hope works in everybody's interest, especially with regard to individuals' reputations.

We will invite Ms Mary Coghlan to the committee and we are not trying to create a sensational media story in doing so. We have a genuine love for the sport represented by the witness and we are conscious that the body has a new chief executive and wants to move on. In fairness to committee members, one or two wish to comment and I ask that contributions are brief. We have much work to do today. I have made my opening remarks on behalf of the committee if members do not wish to comment.

I accept that Mr. Hennessy has made a response and I also accept his indication that this has been a very difficult period for him. It is important that committees of the Houses have this kind of discussion with participants and if issues must be clarified so that they become transparent, we will have done a good job. If comments were made which are false regarding statements of the witness, it would be upsetting for any individual.

Deputy John O’Mahony

I thank Mr. Hennessy for his statement. I will summarise some of his statement and afterwards come back to more positive aspects, such as the fantastic performance at the weekend. From listening to his statement it seems Mr. Hennessy wants to get the negative publicity out of the way so I will concentrate on that now.

Mr. Hennessy indicated he wants to move on and everybody wants to do so. He suggested there is now better governance in Athletics Ireland than there was, which suggests there were cracks in the past governance. He also indicated he was wronged in some of the comments made about him. I know of his great service to athletics over the years and acknowledge it. Does Mr. Hennessy believe others were wronged in this episode apart from himself? It is clearly Mr. Hennessy's source of regret that these distractions have taken place and that would be true of everybody else involved in the episode also. I am sure it would be true of Ms Mary Coghlan and everybody on the committee. We want to see athletes performing to excellent levels at the Olympics or European Championships and I am sure Mr. Hennessy would want the same.

There are some specifics. There was an allegation of a comment at the Athletics Ireland meeting about "spoofing and prevaricating". The comments have been in the public domain but where did they come from if not from Mr. Hennessy?

Chairman

A vote has been called in the Chamber and we attend to it straight away. We will return as soon as the vote concludes.

Sitting suspended at 2.55 p.m. and resumed at 3.20 p.m.

Chairman

The Chief Whip has informed me that there will be no votes for some time now - until the conclusion of business at 11 p.m.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

We would still like to get out a bit before 11 p.m.

Chairman

As a former Whip I have the inside track with some of these fellows. I will go straight back to Deputy John O'Mahony. I apologise for the interruption.

Deputy John O’Mahony

The witnesses referred to the legal case and the cost to Athletics Ireland in their presentation and said they had not had the full facts. Could Mr. Hennessy tell us the cost of that case to Athletics Ireland, and how it affected the delivery of programmes in athletics?

With regard to the change in governance, what changes have taken place in the system of appointments since the Coghlan case, including that of Mr. Foley? These are specific questions. I presume, Chairman, we will be able to ask about other issues later.

Chairman

That would be the sensible thing.

Deputy John O’Mahony

I have one final question. Mr. Hennessy mentioned in his evidence the last day - or it was discussed at the committee - the reason Ms Coghlan was not a member of the delegation. Would he like to clarify the reason she did not attend on that occasion?

Chairman

I suggest we deal with this issue and get everything out in the open, and then we will move on to Mr. Foley, who will address us.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Are we taking all the questions together?

Chairman

Yes. Just to double-check, Mr. Foley is going to speak, and Professor Ó Catháin will also contribute. We will satisfy the committee on this issue and then move on.

Deputy Mary Upton

I would like to-----

Mr. Liam Hennessy

This could this get very complicated for me in terms of trying to remember all the things that must be mentioned.

Chairman

If Mr. Hennessy would like to take two questions at a time, I would be glad to facilitate him. What I normally do, as Chairman, is to try to group the questions. If Mr. Hennessy does not mind taking note of the questions, I am taking note as well, and if we need to go back on anything I can help him. Would he prefer to take them one at a time?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

Some very important questions have been asked by Deputy O'Mahony.

Chairman

If the committee is happy-----

Mr. Liam Hennessy

They are fundamental because they have to do with governance.

Chairman

Then I will let Mr. Hennessy come in at this stage.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

I would like to refer to two specific points, and I will ask Professor Ó Catháin to talk about governance in general and how things have moved on over the last five years. I will also ask Mr. Foley, as chief executive officer, to talk about the legal side of the case and the impact of its costs. I will also speak about Mr. Foley's appointment. I am not terribly sure, but I have prepared a piece to read on his appointment so that I may make no mistakes whatsoever.

There was a question about Mary Coghlan and where the allegations of spoofing and so on arose. I will outline from where that originated. Normally, meetings are recorded in the form of minutes, as are our board meetings. There are minutes of the meeting in question, of which some members will have received copies. Those minutes make no reference whatsoever to that issue. They were subsequently approved by the full board, including the person who wrote the notes from which the minutes were taken. The notes were unseen and unverified by anybody. The only way democracy can work - which is how we work as a board and also how the committee works - is through official minutes, and there is nothing in the official minutes of the specific Athletics Ireland board meeting to refer to such comments; nor was there reference, in any subsequent meeting, to the amending of such words. If something said at a previous meeting is deemed to be out of place, a member may tell the chairman he or she disagrees with what was said. There is no such reference. The person who wrote the notes certainly did not raise the issue at any subsequent meeting. There is nothing whatsoever on the official record appertaining to either of those remarks. I will leave it at that point.

I suspected I would be asked about the appointment of Mr. Foley as chief executive officer and I want to be clear in this regard. I was deeply involved in this. John Foley is an experienced business executive of over 35 years' standing, during which time he has worked for some world-class companies. After almost six months without a CEO, in the second half of 2009, Athletics Ireland asked a professional firm of head-hunters - the leading recruitment company in the country - for assistance, and I was given the task of appointing somebody. I dealt with the company, and it was on that basis that Mr. Foley was appointed as interim CEO of Athletics Ireland at the end of September 2009. He was appointed and paid on a part-time basis but, as it transpired, he found himself working for seven days a week and 24 hours a day. When it came to the seeking of a permanent appointee, this time last year, the board took the view that we had in the person of the interim CEO someone of proven capability who, in the three months that he had been there, had achieved a great deal in terms of steadying the organisation. This was of major significance to us. It was difficult for me, as a volunteer, to try to work with the staff at a time when there was nobody else in the place. It was an impossible situation in terms of providing leadership to staff and normalising relationships with external stakeholders.

Faced with the prospect of a costly and time-consuming search process which would reintroduce uncertainty to an environment that had just calmed down, and in view of the fact that it would be a challenge, in our view, to find a superior candidate to the one who was in situ, the board made a decision to approach Mr. Foley to inquire as to whether he might be interested in the role. We were pleased that he agreed to our proposal. Clearly, the case could be made for a process to recruit a new CEO, but the board felt strongly that due to the uncertainty for all audiences, as well as the cost - both financially and in terms of people’s time - it would be an unnecessary and imprudent use of resources.

For the protection of the organisation, the CEO is appointed on a fixed-term contract with strict performance review criteria. The board spent quite a lot of time thinking about this and it had no difficulty whatsoever. How better to assess an individual for a position than to consider what he did over a period during which he was in that position? The vast majority of the board was completely behind the decision.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Could I ask a question on that?

Chairman

Before we leave the issue of the appointment?

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Yes. I commend Mr. Hennessy on his 40 years of volunteer service. I must acknowledge, reading the CV of Mr. Foley, that he has not only business experience but also an interest in athletics, and he is a good appointment. However, this is a parliamentary system in which the Government of the day and politicians in general are criticised about a "jobs for the boys" attitude. After the incident with Ms Coghlan, did it seem appropriate that the new governance procedures, which Athletics Ireland introduced in consultation with the Irish Sports Council, were effectively bypassed and the appointment made without any advertising of the position? I do not question in any way the suitability and capability of Mr. John Foley who qualifies in every respect. I ask the question in the context of Athletics Ireland High Court case with Ms Mary Coghlan and the appointment of her successor. Having agreed new governance in rules and regulations, why did Athletics Ireland not endeavour to comply with them?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

From our point of view, we needed to steady the ship. I specifically remember that when this issue came up around this time last year the board discussed it. We were in a very difficult situation in terms of trying to provide certainty. That certainty had been provided and proven by Mr. Foley in terms of interaction. Some serious issues had arisen that he had tackled quite successfully, issues that went above and beyond the call of duty in terms of sponsorship, corporate governance and, in particular, child welfare which is a huge issue. There was incredible work done, all under the corporate governance structure we had. We felt this was the right appointment to make for the sport at that time. We were also very conscious of our financial situation at that stage.

Going out to the market would have created huge uncertainty for us and the possibility that we might lose Mr. Foley was something we could not countenance at that time. It would have taken us several months to have gone through the whole process and there would have been huge uncertainty and a huge cost which we could ill afford. We know of companies such as RTE. How did it appoint its director general? It headhunted. These things can happen. We did not do that but had a proven person in the post.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Did the board not agree a new strategy with the Irish Sports Council as to how it would make appointments in the future?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

No. Originally the board agreed we would advertise but decided in the best interests of the sport, as we saw it, we would not. We had very good reasons.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

I acknowledge that Mr. Foley would tick all the boxes that Athletics Ireland or any other organisation might look for in terms of the ideal CEO. He is a man with a background in respect of athletics and has an outstanding business background. I raise the issue in the context that after the High Court case the recommendation was made to Athletics Ireland that it should bring in new rules and regulations in respect of appointments.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

We had agreed to that but this was a pragmatic decision in the best interests of the sport.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Equally, one could say it was a pragmatic decision to appoint Ms Mary Coghlan but within a matter of weeks people in the organisation questioned her suitability. I do not wish to labour this------

Mr. Liam Hennessy

I am not going to go into the appointment at this stage.

Chairman

I skipped Deputy Upton and allowed Deputy Kennedy to ask a supplementary question.

Deputy Mary Upton

Will I stick with the same question?

Chairman

We will get these issues dealt with and move on.

Deputy Mary Upton

I have some other questions but will raise some points regarding this. I do not question the competence, ability or qualifications of Mr. John Foley but it was a very foolish move not to go through the agreed process. For semi-State or any organisations that are funded publicly, directly or indirectly, good governance must apply.

I have a question in regard to costing. Mr. Hennessy stated that had the board advertised there would have been a high cost. How much did the recruitment agency cost? He also stated the vast majority of the board was in favour of this process, namely, to head hunt. Did some members dissent?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

From recollection, one person might have dissented but that person would have said Mr. Foley's would be a good appointment.

Deputy Mary Upton

Was there any discussion at board level of the consequences of not advertising and not going through the obvious agreed process?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

Around that time of the year there was a time factor for us. I am not going to convince members of this, that is clear. However, in the cold light of day and given from where we had come, we were convinced this was the best way forward. We did not do this lightly; we looked at it and this is what the board decided. This was done by the vast majority of the board at the time, taking everything into consideration.

Normally, the basic cost factor for a recruitment agency is 25% of the first year's salary. There is the advertising cost and the time factor involved. There were many things about which we needed to have certainty to help us to move on. We would have had a new congress coming up, and were moving to become a company limited by guarantee. There was a whole raft of things that needed to be done. Concerning the staff situation, how could we have held off for much longer with nobody to lead the staff? I used to volunteer with the person moving into the office on a daily basis to try to motivate and keep the 16 staff, who were phenomenal during that time. All of these factors were in play.

To this day, I cannot see any difficulty in what we did. Of course, if we were going forward again we would advertise and go through the process as we are doing for other positions since then.

Chairman

Does Deputy Upton want to ask her other questions?

Deputy Mary Upton

Yes. Mr. Hennessy said the word "spoofing" was not in his lexicon. The mention of "spoofing and prevarication" came from a High Court transcript, as he will know. He will agree that to claim that a person was spoofing and prevaricating is a very serious allegation. That terminology was used although I do not say Mr. Hennessy used it. It was in the transcript.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

Yes.

Deputy Mary Upton

Mr. Hennessy has been clear about this and has said spoofing is not in his lexicon. The terminology is in the transcript. Did Mr. Hennessy or his legal team have the right to challenge that, or did they consider doing so? There was an opportunity for them to put it to bed there and then.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

Athletics Ireland never had an opportunity to say anything at the court case. Not one word emanated from Athletics Ireland. These notes were passed in the book of pleadings which we happened to see. The person who had written the notes, of which we become aware around the time of the board meeting, said when asked that he had never passed them to Ms Mary Coghlan. However, they appeared and were alluded to in opening remarks. We never had an opportunity to-----

Deputy Michael Kennedy

The association's lawyers recommended making the settlement.

Chairman

To be helpful, the references made by Deputy Upton are not to the minutes of Athletics Ireland, as Mr. Hennessy has made clear.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

One hundred percent.

Deputy Mary Upton

That is fine. I accept that.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

I do not know what lawyers do. A voluminous amount of things came out in the three and a half days. Our lawyers would have taken up various aspects but they could not take up every word said. I was aware that I would go before the High Court at a particular time for at least one day. I was informed that I would be there for one day to answer questions on the matter.

Chairman

We agreed at the start that we would deal with all of these issues, clear them up and then get to the meat of the subject today, that is, the association's plans for the future. I urge my colleagues to be as brief as possible and to try to stick to the issues, especially those which relate to the comments the committee made. We should deal with the matter as best we can.

Deputy Mary Upton

I wish to ask about the cost to Athletics Ireland. The association indicated in its preliminary statement that it was inaccurate. That was the word used. Will the delegation clarify what exactly the cost was and where it came from?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

I will do that. Ciarán Ó Catháin will discuss governance and John Foley will discuss the finances. However, it is important to set the overall context, including where we are coming from and where we are moving on to in terms of how this concluded in the High Court because people should be aware of it. I must put on record how the matter concluded because it impacts greatly on the association and why we have said nothing since the High Court case. I appeal to the Chairman to indulge me a little.

We know what the Minister stated in the Chamber on the matter. The case was concluded at the High Court as follows. Mary Coghlan's barrister stated to the President of the High Court, "I am pleased to report that an amicable settlement has been reached". The President of the High Court followed this by stating:

I am glad to hear of this development and that the parties have reached an amicable settlement. I am satisfied there was goodwill on both sides here.

What he went on to say is crucial. He stated:

Historically, these things develop a life of their own. Unfortunately, once they get going it is sometimes very difficult to reverse tracks on either side. The fact that the parties have reached a settlement is the best possible outcome.

I will read some excerpts from the settlement. I will not read out the financial aspect of the settlement, which has been publicised. What follows is the settlement, signed by all of us. The first part is in legalese but it is important to read it:

Strictly without admission of liability, the High Court proceedings, EAT proceedings and all other claims which Ms Coghlan might have against either defendant, their officers, servants or agents, arising from employment or termination thereof or otherwise, however connected with that employment, are comprised on the following basis: The plaintiff agrees to discontinue the High Court proceedings, to withdraw her claim in the EAT proceedings and not to prosecute any other claim howsoever arising, whether of common law, in equity pursuant to statue or otherwise, against either of the defendants, their respective officers, servants or agents. A single statement shall be made in court by the parties to the effect that the proceedings have been amicably resolved. Neither party shall publish or cause to be published or uttered any statement disparaging of the other or their officers, servants or agents.

Since that date we have never made any comment, notwithstanding extreme, provocative comment in the media and elsewhere. As I stated earlier, it should be noted that we never had an opportunity to put our case before the court. That was acceptable as part of the overall agreement.

Chairman

I will ask Professor Ó Catháin to comment on governance issues and Mr. Foley on costs.

Deputy Mary Upton

I have two more questions, in so far as they relate to this committee. I am not interested in rehearsing the High Court proceedings, which are over. During the last visit of the delegation to the committee, Mr. Hennessy stated that the CEO was not here because she was on holiday. I followed this up and it turned out she was not invited, but Mr. Hennessy stated she was on holiday. I have concerns about this. Mr. Hennessy also stated he could not answer certain things because the case was sub judice. I am unsure whether any case was in progress at that time which would indicate it could not possibly have been sub judice. I call on Mr. Hennessy to reply to these two queries.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

I will do my best. The last time we were here we were ill-prepared when appearing before the committee. We did not realise the extent to which the committee would focus exclusively on this issue. We were rather naive. We were in an extremely delicate situation at that stage in terms of negotiations. It had been agreed unanimously by the board that we should enter negotiations with Mary Coghlan. It was a difficult situation for us, I had no experience of being before such a committee and I was uneasy about the whole thing. It was an extraordinarily difficult time for us. I would never try to mislead the committee. I answered everything to the best of my ability at that time. It may have seemed to be incomplete or may have appeared as prevarication but I was under extreme stress at the time. It was also a difficult time in so far as I was on my own to a large extent. Normally one would have certain people on board to deal with such issues, to give support and to volunteer. One would depend on crucial people such as the chief executive or the chair of finance and risk to help one throughout a situation. Had I my time back again, I would have postponed the meeting because we were involved in the most delicate negotiations. Entry into those negotiations had been agreed by all sides and by the board of Athletics Ireland. That is as much as we can say about it.

Chairman

Before bringing in Deputies Upton and Kennedy, I will make a brief comment. This is a useful exercise because we have all learned, through our experience as politicians and as Ministers in some cases, that the most important thing is to have structures in place. As Minister of State with responsibility for labour affairs, I carried out some work under the heading of bullying in the workplace and encouraging good relations at all levels in organisations. To be fair, Mr. Hennessy has reached the heart of the matter, which is what we are about today. We are keen to try to understand the comments and Mr. Hennessy has clarified his remarks.

More important, we must acknowledge the need for good structures. This was the message received from Kieran Mulvey. We are not trying to re-enact a court case here and in fairness to Deputies Upton, O'Mahony and Kennedy, they have indicated as much. However, we need to get to the heart of the matter and people must have an understanding here and now with regard to the need for structures. I acknowledge Mr. Hennessy's statement and we look forward to hearing from his two colleagues.

Deputy John O’Mahony

Mr. Hennessy referred to the appointment of Mr. Foley, which I do not question in any way. However, Mr. Hennessy also referred to the delicate situation he faced. Do I understand it correctly that Mr. Hennessy stated if he had the time back again he would have put it through the advertisement process? Is that what he suggested?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

No, I did not. We believed it was the right decision at the time.

Deputy John O’Mahony

Of course he did, but I understood something else from an earlier statement of Mr. Hennessy. Given where the association had come from, did he not believe he was taking a risk by employing someone without going through the proper process? That is the key question and, to be fair to the new chief executive, the same controversy should not arise again.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

I do not relate the two issues. At that time, we felt this was the best way forward for us an association. Clearly, in the normal course of events we advertise for all positions. I have gone through the issues we had at the time. We needed stability, we could not wait.

Deputy John O’Mahony

Could this not have led to further instability? Did the Irish Sports Council offer a view on it?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

We did it in conjunction with the recruitment agency and informed the Irish Sports Council this is what we were doing.

Deputy Mary Upton

Did it approve that?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

It made no comment.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Did it agree the new governance with Athletics Ireland following the High Court case in terms of future appointments?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

There was no High Court case at that stage; the High Court case came subsequently.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

To the full-time appointment of Mr. Foley?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

Yes, the High Court case came after that.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Mr. Foley was appointed before the High Court case?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

Long before. He came on board when we went through the recruitment agency to get someone on an interim basis and we were quite happy. It is clear that no matter what I say, we acted as we saw at that time but our normal process is to advertise. We were convinced the need of the organisation was paramount at the time. It was a serious issue for us, we could not let time slip by. It would take at least three or four months before we would get through the process. The uncertainty of dealing with all of the agencies and sponsors while only being an interim CEO had to be taken into consideration so we thought this move was made in the best interests of the association.

Chairman

I call on colleagues to ask questions then we can let Mr. Hennessy respond. We will not place any limit on the time.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

As far as I am concerned, Mr. John Foley is an excellent choice and I have no difficulty with him. He was appointed before the High Court case. The Irish Sports Council suggested a set of rules for future appointments. Was that before or after the High Court case? Did Athletics Ireland know that the ISC wanted it to comply with such rules and regulations for future appointments before it appointed Mr. Foley? At the time of the meeting, when I was the Acting Chairman, I was aware that Ms Mary Coghlan, former Athletics Ireland official, would not be turning up at the meeting. I was very much aware that the excuse given on the day, that she was sick, was inaccurate. To clear the air and move on, as the person who chaired the meeting on that day, I would like to hear Athletics Ireland admit that it made a mistake in making that claim and should not have made it, and that she should have attended in the same way as Mr. John Foley today.

At that meeting, it was suggested the legal fees would not be borne by the taxpayer on the basis that Athletics Ireland had a property it was selling. Was that property sold and, if so, where did the proceeds go? Does Athletics Ireland own any other property?

Deputy Jack Wall

I welcome the delegation. Unfortunately, I was not here on the last occasion but I have a simple question about what Mr. Hennessy said today. He deemed it necessary to give a commitment today that he would have this matter cleared up before he leaves the presidency at the end of 2012. I have known Mr. Hennessy for many years and remember the early days when he was competing against people from the city as a Tipperary athlete. I am concerned that he said that this will be rectified by the end of 2012 given the serious position we are now in, with the Olympic Games less than two years away. I want this to be put to bed so it does not interfere with the preparatory work necessary so we can have the best possible team in London. If it has not been sorted out by the time the Olympic Games come round, I would ask that it be put to one side because we cannot have something that will interfere with our chances to field the strongest possible team of athletes for many years.

Chairman

Well said, Deputy Wall is reflecting the committee's views on that point.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

I apologise that I had to leave; I had to launch a report on the inclusion of the Defence Forces in physical fitness promotion. Is there a legal relationship between the ISC and Athletics Ireland, and can the Irish Sports Council dictate what people the association employ? Is there a legal basis for any such role or is Athletics Ireland at arm's length from the Irish Sports Council? How many similar cases have there been?

I heard Deputy O'Mahony asking how much this case cost Athletics Ireland and how did it pay those costs. In the past, were there other cases that went to court and were settled? I remember an instance where an employee was involved in a high profile case so have there been other cases where settlements were reached. Did Mr. Brendan Hackett, a former physical education teacher like myself, leave voluntarily or was he forced out? I never met Mr. Liam Hennessy until today and I am not on any side whatsoever but I always admired him for his commitment to athletics in Ireland and the amount of work he put in voluntarily. I always believed he was a decent and honourable individual. That this unfortunate process has happened must put considerable pressure on him and on his family. While taking no sides, I am sure Ms Mary Coghlan is under considerable pressure also. For that reason I suggested on the last occasion to Mr. John Treacy, in particular, that the Irish Sports Council should have within its organisation a disputes resolution group, that could take on cases such as this. I was involved with Bord na gCon in the mid-1990s where there was an issue about control but eventually it set up an independent controls board. I suggest something similar be put in place in the Irish Sports Council. I understand there may be a similar type group in the Federation of Irish Sports.

Chairman

Again, Deputy Deenihan has touched on a very important issue, the whole area of organisational management, which we have all come to realise is a very sophisticated area to which we all have to give much thought. It is clear from Mr. Liam Hennessy's comments that he has recognised that. Does Deputy Upton have one other question?

Deputy Mary Upton

I have two questions. I am interested in the fact that the Irish Sports Council effectively nodded through the process because, if I recollect correctly, in the previous appointment it was very hands-on and very interested in being thoroughly represented on the interview panel. Why would it have had a change of heart and why would it not have seen for itself any particular role in the appointment? On the second issue, I go back to what the Chairman said at the outset-----

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Mary Upton

I am trying to adhere to what happened at the last meeting where Mr. Hennessy said he could not answer some questions because the case was sub judice. Was that correct and accurate or was it the case that Mr. Hennessy could have answered those questions?

Chairman

I will try to recap as best I can while being conscious that Mr. Ciarán Ó Catháin and Mr. John Foley have things to say. There were specific questions on governance for Mr. Ciarán Ó Catháin and on costs for Mr. John Foley. Mr. Liam Hennessy has some broader issues to raise. Let us deal with all these issues. I want to ensure Mr. Ciarán Ó Catháin and Mr. John Foley have an opportunity to make their statements about the future.

Deputy Michael Kennedy referred again to Mr. John Foley's appointment, to Mary Coghlan not turning up on the day, to legal fees and possibly other issues. Deputy Jack Wall referred to the need to put this issue to bed and have a clear run at the Olympic Games in 2012. Deputy Jimmy Deenihan referred to the deliberations with the Irish Sports Council and how that works and referred to similar cases while Deputy Mary Upton asked about the relationship between the interview panel and the Irish Sports Council and the issue of sub judice. Those are the specific questions. I invite Mr. Liam Hennessy to respond to those questions as quickly as possible and we can move on to Mr. Ciarán Ó Catháin and Mr. John Foley to hear about the future. I do not want to re-enact a court case.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

I thought I had clarified those issues, in so far as I could, on the previous occasion I appeared before the committee. I have been asked very specific questions to which clearly it will be hard to give satisfactory responses in light of the overall context but I will try to respond to Deputy Deenihan's question on the Federation of Irish Sports. Of course we are working with the Federation of Irish Sports which is doing very good work with funding for sport. We are pleased that funding for sport has been reduced by only a relatively small amount in these strict times, I acknowledge that on behalf of Athletics Ireland. This will also be a comfort to Mr. Kieran Mulvey, chairman of the Irish Sports Council.

Mr. Brendan Hackett, with whom I worked closely, left on a voluntary basis. I was chair of high performance, an area that was close to his heart, at the time. We did a lot of work during the period and I was sorry to see him go. He did a very good job. There were no previous cases in my time involving legal issues. In fact, I never saw a legal letter in all my 30 years involvement with the board up to this time. In the living room of my home documentation is piled so high that I had to spend hours trying to dig out the specific notes we are talking about but luckily I found them.

As to whether there are issues with the Irish Sports Council and ourselves, we have a very normal business arrangement with the Irish Sports Council. We present our cases to it for finance and work with it on various issues at different levels, given that there are different groups within the Irish Sports Council. There are the issues of sport, which our high performance unit deals with, that are beginning to kick in. However, more can be done. Further integration with Sport Northern Ireland can help to maximise overall resources in that area.

The area of governance and finance is being dealt with by other people. There are different sections of the Irish Sports Council with which we deal on a regular basis. It can help us and we can help it. I have a specific example in the high performance area where we had long and hard discussions over 12 months with the Irish Sports Council but we never fell out in terms of how we might best move on to satisfy Deputy Wall's comments in terms of high performance.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

What legal powers has it to direct Athletics Ireland?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

It has none. From the funds we receive we are answerable to the Irish Sports Council. I note Deputy Upton does not accept this and she is entitled to her opinion. We have a normal business relationship with the Irish Sports Council and it works very effectively. It is totally hands off.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

As I understand the position, its hold on Athletics Ireland is that the Irish Sports Council did not give it the cash.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

We make our case the same as every other national governing body and are answerable on the basis of the normal criteria in terms of governance and how money was spent. We work through the various issues of the various departments on funding. We never get what we are looking for.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Is it true it delayed paying Athletics Ireland for a quite a long time last year?

Deputy Mary Upton

The money was drip-fed, as I understand it, and only that.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

Chairman, I am not going back to that issue which has been dealt with on many occasions. I could spend hours going through it. The issues around that matter at the time were clarified, in terms of the funding given to us. We would go down blind alleys by trying to go back to it. On every single item that could be brought up, I could spend the next three or four hours going through what is contained in these specific notes that we are talking about. I could also spend hours going through the notes for things that are not in the notes.

Chairman

I think we were speaking about the relationship between the Irish Sports Council and Athletics Ireland.

Deputy Mary Upton

It was actually-----

Chairman

It is clear to me there is no legal link, but there is a control fact; at least that is the view of the committee. Is it the case that those with the purse will have control?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

We make our case in the same way, as one would in any walk of life, when seeking funding and one must meet the specific criteria. That is working very effectively.

Deputy Mary Upton

May I interrupt on a simple question? When all of this brouhaha was going on, my understanding is that at a backdrop to that, the funding was not provided up-front. Those two were inter-related - they were irreversibly bound to one another - the fractious situation within Athletics Ireland and the getting of the funding from the Irish Sports Council. Can Mr. Hennessy tell the committee why the money was fed on a drip-feed rather than on an annual basis?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

At a certain time the Irish Sports Council was unhappy with certain governance issues in our organisation. I cannot make any comment on the specific issues. It was unhappy and it decided it would only fund us on a monthly basis, which it duly did, and we were told about that in advance of the grant aid that year. We knew in advance that we would not be included when the grants were announced. The grants were announced on a Friday. We were told in advance that would be the position for us, namely, that we would get funding on a monthly basis.

Deputy Mary Upton

What was the governance issue that prompted that response from the Irish Sports Council?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

It had several issues with us. I cannot recall all the specific issues at that stage. It had several governance issues with us at that time.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Would one of them have been Mary Coghlan?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

I do not intend to go back through the whole-----

Deputy Michael Kennedy

It is a fair question.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

The case is closed.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

We are asking a simple question and it requires a simple answer. Mr. Hennessy said a number of governance issues caused the Irish Sports Council to drip-feed his organisation its finance rather than give it one cheque in advance. I am asking Mr. Hennessy a simple question. Was one of those issues the conflict with the former chief executive officer, Mary Coghlan?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

I honestly cannot recall all the issues at that time. To the best of my recollection it was not a specific issue.

Deputy Mary Upton

This issue is of some concern to me. Mr. Hennessy said there were several governance issues. If we could identify one we might live with that but Mr. Hennessy has just told us there were several governance issues. Is that not of concern?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

There were issues that the Irish Sports Council had with us at that time.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

If one of them is Mary Coghlan, why will Mr. Hennessy not admit it? What is the point in prevaricating, to quote his own words? Either it was an issue or it was not. The information I was given last year is that it was one of the reasons the organisation's money was not forthcoming. If Mr. Hennessy is saying it was, let us move on from that.

Chairman

If I may add to that, Mr. Hennessy. A question was asked earlier to explain what happened with regard to Mary Coghlan not turning up at the committee meeting. Can Mr. Hennessy tell us about that? I was not the Chairman at the time; it was Deputy Michael Kennedy. Will Mr. Hennessy explain the reason for Mary Coghlan not being here that day?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

I missed the question, Chairman.

Chairman

Could Mr. Hennessy give us some background as to the reason Mary Coghlan did not appear before the committee on the day?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

At that time we were in deep negotiations with Mary Coghlan towards her exit. We had decided on it at a board meeting before that. I had not intended dealing with this but on 2 June the board passed the following resolution, namely, that Mary Coghlan step aside from her duties as CEO until the next board meeting on 15 June in order that she enter into negotiations on the terms on which she would resign as CEO of Athletics Ireland. That motion was passed by a margin of six to five. The five people wanted to terminate Mary Coghlan's employment at that time. In effect, therefore, that motion was unanimously passed by the board on 2 June and arising from that we went into negotiations with Mary Coghlan.

Deputy John O’Mahony

Does Mr. Hennessy agree that he said at the last meeting that Mary Coghlan was on holiday and was unable to be at the meeting?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

That was an agreed position we had at that time.

Deputy John O’Mahony

Was it true?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

She was in fact-----

Deputy John O’Mahony

Clearly it was not true.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

She was on holidays at the particular time and I had sent-----

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Sorry, Chairman, I will answer that. I was chairing the meeting that day and it was my clear understanding that Mary Coghlan was available to come to the meeting.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

She was but we were not inviting her to the meeting. How could we invite somebody with whom we were in negotiations for her exit?

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Can I ask Mr. Hennessy a simple question? John Foley, as current CEO, is present. Who invited Mr. Foley?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

Who invited Mr. Foley?

Mr. John Foley

Mr. Crowley.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Mr. Crowley. I would be fairly certain that Ms Coghlan, as then CEO, would have been invited to that meeting.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

I cannot recall. How could one in the delicate situation in which we found ourselves? We were in negotiations with somebody for an exit. It would have been extraordinary to have that person in-----

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Why could Mr. Hennessy not have said that rather than tell a downright lie, namely, that she was on holidays? Why did he not say there is a human resources problem and the board has decided Ms Coghlan will not attend today?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

We had everything to-----

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Would that not have been an easy way-----

Mr. Liam Hennessy

In conjunction with our solicitors at the time I had written to Ms Coghlan. She was out of the office for some time and the issue was that I would say to the staff that we had an agreed position with her at that particular time. I cannot recall the sequence of notes we had but this was done in conjunction with the legal people at the time.

Chairman

Deputy Kennedy used the word "lie". In regard to our legal requirements I ask him to withdraw that.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

I am saying it was an untruth to suggest that Mary Coghlan was on holidays.

Chairman

We have had an exhaustive debate on this aspect. My understanding of what Mr. Hennessy has said, and I am trying to be fair to everybody, is that there was a dispute, a board decision was made not to bring her before the committee and, if I am correct, she was on holidays at the same time. I want to be careful about any person using words such as "untruths", "lies" or whatever. It is important we do not get into that area. I want to protect members also.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

We are here today to try to clear the air but with due respects to Mr. Hennessy, he appears to be trying to put it across that the story was different. Why will he not acknowledge the fact that Mary Coghlan was not here because the board decided it was not in the board's interest to have her at this meeting?

Mr. Liam Hennessy

Absolutely. I agree with the Deputy.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Why does he not say that? He has tried to give the impression that Mary Coghlan was on holidays, sick or whatever. Mary Coghlan was not invited to attend and when the question was asked by Deputy Upton and, I believe, Deputy Olivia Mitchell, as to the reason she was not present, Mr. Hennessy clearly said she was on holidays. That is part of the problem, and the reason Mr. Hennessy is here today is to try to clear up those misunderstandings.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

Nothing is simple in life. I have gone through this same issue over and over again. It was difficult for us, when we came in here, to try to cope with all of this. This is all foreign territory to us. I have no experience of ever being in a forum such as this one and I found it incredibly difficult to try to articulate all the points we needed to articulate at the particular time in the extraordinarily difficult circumstances that pertained. There were discussions in advance of the meeting with Mary Coghlan. There were discussions with solicitors and without having all the various pieces of information it does look as if one could get that interpretation. From our point of view, we decided it was inappropriate for Mary Coghlan to attend the meeting on the basis of a motion we had agreed unanimously at a previous board meeting. It was on that basis that Mary Coghlan was not at the meeting.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

On that point, on the day I do not believe any of us would have any issue.

Chairman

I am conscious that the former Chairman is present and I was not at the meeting at the time. I must say that, as Chairman, I formally invited Mr. John Foley to attend today. The clerk to the committee would have conveyed my request to Mr. Hennessy, Mr. Foley and Athletics Ireland to be here today. I am glad we have done that. The purpose of our meeting was to have a brief discussion at the start of the meeting, which was agreed among ourselves. It has been more than a brief discussion but it is a healthy part of our democratic system. We make no apologies for that and I am sure the witnesses can appreciate that.

I ask Mr. Hennessy to take a break for a moment because he has outlined that this is a difficult experience for him. It is difficult for everybody because we want to deal with important issues of governance. We have concerns for the health of athletics in Ireland. There are no agendas here on the part of members, who are all genuine people, and genuine comments have been made about Mr. Hennessy and his commitment to sport.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

I would like to make one point. I forgot to come back to Deputy Wall.

Chairman

Following which I will bring in Mr. Ó Catháin.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

It is a crucial point. I can assure the Deputy that the preparation for the Olympic Games has not been affected by this issue. I can assure the committee that it is uppermost in our minds. Our CEO is working in close liaison with the Olympic Council of Ireland. He has had recent meetings with the chef de mission, Sonia O’Sullivan, regarding the Olympic Games and everything is moving forward appropriately and positively towards 2012.

Chairman

To finish the point I was making, when I was appointed Chairman of this committee, there was some unfinished business to be dealt with. Some members have more experience of this issue and of dealing with it in the Dáil. It is not a minor issue and nobody has suggested that it is. I thank members for their frank questions and Mr. Hennessy for his frank answers. I accept in particular the points he made in his opening statement. He covered the issues we asked him to deal with. These are not easy situations with which to deal. We do not want to put him through a quasi-judicial experience. Any delegation that comes in here to give evidence, as the delegation did on the last occasion, is taken seriously by us. We want to make sure that there are no uncertainties about what the delegates are doing. I thank Mr. Hennessy for his presentation, which was not easy. I now invite Mr. John Foley to speak.

Mr. John Foley

Before I proceed, I want to deal with the cost of the court case, about which a number of members asked. It is public knowledge that the gross cost of the court case was €310,000. The net cost was €275,000 because we received some insurance money. One thing I have learned through my years in other fora is the importance of examining costs. We had an outside marketing company but I felt I had the experience to handle that work.

Chairman

What was the cost of the court case?

Mr. John Foley

Our cost was €310,000. I discontinued using a marketing company. The question was asked whether this in any way impacted on or affected the running of our sport. My view on that is that, clearly, it did not. I brought some marketing activities in-house that I handle myself. I also took costs from certain areas such as awards, road-racing etc. simply by being more efficient. I have had experience over a number of years of doing that. We reduced the mileage expenses for every staff member and volunteer from 75 cent a mile to 50 cent a mile, which removed significant cost from that area. I removed storage costs, I reduced telephone costs etc. From a cost point of view, these were the issues I handled.

From an income point of view, we had an increase in membership, which generated more income for the organisation into the future in that we have had more registration fees etc. We generated more income from coaching courses, gate receipts etc. That is how we handled the funding of the court case. I have had vast experience of taking costs out of organisations. That is how we did it and it did not impact one iota on the running of the organisation.

Chairman

I asked Mr. Foley to come in here to outline his plans for the future.

Mr. John Foley

I will do that.

Chairman

I would like him to do that.

Mr. John Foley

I will go through this relatively quickly.

Chairman

Mr. Foley has been patiently waiting.

Mr. John Foley

I have a background in athletics. I come from Limerick originally, I was a prominent schools and junior athlete at national level and I got a scholarship to go to the United States. I did well academically but not that well athletically. I have had a distinguished - that is probably too strong a word - or a fairly successful career in marketing and management, particularly in Ireland, the UK and the US, working with Beechams, Chesbrough Ponds, Bord na Móna in Ireland, Johnson & Johnson and, more recently, Waterford Crystal where I was marketing director for a number of years and then chief executive during the very good times and the not so good times, which was a tough experience.

I remained in ongoing touch with athletics throughout my business career as a contributor and as a sponsor. Over the years I have sponsored the awards and the Irish Runner magazine, I have placed advertising and given trophies away over the years in a number of areas, particularly to athletics. I used to drive marketing colleagues crazy because I always tended to support athletics over other activities.

A little more than a year ago, having left Waterford, I was approached to take the CEO role in Athletics Ireland on an interim basis for three months as the organisation had been without a CEO for six months. When I left Waterford I had my own consultancy, I was working on a per diem basis and doing quite nicely. I was not working as hard as I was when I worked for Athletics Ireland on a part-time basis. Even though I came in on a three day week the president had me working seven days a week for three days’ pay. It is something I have loved all my life and, therefore, it was not really a chore.

At the point when the board was due to begin the process of recruiting a permanent CEO, I was asked by the board if I might consider taking the role on a full-time basis. It was not automatic that I would do so, as I had other options. However, I saw it as an enormous opportunity to make a mark in an area that is very important to me and to which I gave so much in my athlete days. It is a challenging role, every bit as much as any I have had before, but very rewarding at many levels. I thought that this role would be all about sport but there are peripheral issues that I, as an executive, have had to handle over the year that I have been there.

My first priority was to stabilise the organisation because it did not have a CEO for a period of time and to set a direction for the future. I consider that this has been achieved and while there are ongoing issues like any organisation, I believe we are going the right way. It quickly became clear to me that a number of issues needed tackling and I familiarised myself with each area. In the finance area I needed to be clear that we were viable - that was the first priority - and we had the resources to continue with our mandate of fostering the growth of athletics in Ireland. I immediately examined each area of expenditure, which I outlined earlier, and took the necessary decisions to ensure viability. In this context, I also requested the Irish Sports Council to fund the appointment of auditors to get an outside view of issues, which would happen in the case of any new CEO coming in. We have a draft audit report which outlines the important areas, including the significant steps, that have been taken recently to strengthen internal control mechanisms and overall governance frameworks within Athletics Ireland, including the appointment of a CEO, combined with additional members being appointed to the board. We now have new non-elected board members to strengthen the board. Also, Athletics Ireland, as per the audit, is clearly seen to be committed to improvement and additional actions and a structured programme of activities is in place to move the organisation forward. The audit also states there is clear evidence of commitment to continuous improvement and increased efficiency both in terms of the provision of member services and in the area of safeguarding public funds. Like any organisation we have issues and I am working my way through these. We have to tackle them and we will do so.

As the committee will be aware, we are a membership organisation and at the end of 2010 we will have grown our membership by 12% on 2009 to 33,500 members. While the achievement of this growth is mainly due to the volunteers and staff who are with us today, I must also acknowledge the work of the previous CEOs, Brendan Hackett and Mary Coghlan. What has impressed me most since I took on this role is the work of the volunteers who have worked tirelessly with no remuneration in the interest of athletics throughout the year.

For the information of members, even though we have 33,500 members, there are tens of thousands of people who are not members of our organisation who run for fun. Thousands upon thousands of people run in the Dublin City Marathon, the Cork City Marathon, the Women's Mini Marathon. Our objective, through our fit for life programme, is to get these people into our clubs to ensure they become club members and compete with us.

I will speak about high performance a little later but I want to cover the issue of child welfare, which is of the utmost importance to myself, the board and the membership. In parallel to ensuring the stability of the organisation, we have, with the assistance of the board, volunteers and staff, placed absolute focus on ensuring that we have a robust child welfare programme in place. We have instigated Garda vetting throughout our club structure and are ensuring that child welfare officers are supported at club level to ensure that we are conforming to best practice. We work very closely with the Irish Sports Council on this very important initiative. The work on child welfare continues and we have more to do. Relationships are hugely important and I have developed business-like relationships with all our stakeholders. The president and I visit the provinces regularly to communicate with the people who work at grassroot level athletics. We work closely with the Irish Sports Council on both our core and high performance areas, and with the Institute of Sport on the medical and science areas. We also have an excellent relationship with the Olympic Council of Ireland.

A new high performance strategic plan was launched in April of last year which included six specific projects, with identified performance outputs. The structure of the plan is the setting up of a high performance unit that is about people, an athlete medical management system, a sport science support network, a long-term athlete development programme and identifying performance training centres. That is very much a work in progress. At present, we do not have a permanent high performance director and I am endeavouring to do that job. My view is that I am not doing it well and I need to put a high performance director in place very quickly.

The plan is about striking a balance between providing the type of expert, centralised and thus cost-effective supports that an athlete requires, in tandem with the personalised support capability that many of our current elite athletes have in place themselves. I attended a conference recently in Barcelona and spoke to the other chief executive officers of federations. We support our elite athletes in a very significant way through the Government, the Irish Sports Council, the Institute of Sport, the Olympic Council of Ireland, ourselves and through other sports. We do so through personal funding, medical support, science support, travel and so forth. It is very early days in the plan but we are building on a good base. In the European Championships we were targeting two podium places and six top 12 places. While Derval O'Rourke was the only podium placing - she secured a silver medal - we delivered 11 top 12 placings. David Gillick was fifth in the final of the 400 metres and was only three or four inches away from a medal. We also finished 17th of the 51 countries on the points table.

In the European Team Championships, our objective was to retain division one status, a ranking that was achieved by finishing eighth of 12 teams competing. In the World Junior Championships we had a target of one podium and three top 12 places, both of which were achieved with Ciara Mageean's silver medal being the first at this level for an Irish athlete in 16 years. The emergence of a new generation of young Irish athletes, all capable of reaching the final stages and medalling in major international championships, offers the prospect of Irish track and field athletes becoming household names for the first time in generations.

We are also very proud of the development of the junior talent that is coming up behind the senior athletes. We are now at the point of being able, notwithstanding the inevitable economic constraints, to deliver a more sustained flow of high performers than has ever been the case in Ireland. The performance of our under-23s at the weekend is evidence that the future is bright, and it is our intention to nurture the talent we have and to continuously improve it. As chief executive officer, I have watched the young people emerge from the school and junior championships. We definitely have the opportunity to do something wonderful in the next number of years.

Behind the athletes, we have a strong management structure that develops coaches and clubs, ensures child welfare and manages the finances effectively. To that end, we put great focus on governance, efficiency and transparency, and set out a regime for benchmarking and revisiting these targets. We have been lacking an indoor facility. There are wonderful outdoor facilities in Ireland but Athlone IT has now broken ground for a new indoor facility which will be ready at the end of 2011. It will be extraordinary for Ireland to have a 200 m indoor track and training facility. We will be able to not only have competitions but also bring our athletes to it for training and coaching on an ongoing basis. That is a huge development for sport in Ireland.

I am pleased to advise the committee that we have recently begun to generate renewed or added commercial support for the sport. To that end we were recently delighted to welcome Aviva as a sponsor of schools athletics in Ireland. It signed up just a month ago and joins Woodies, McDonalds and ASICS as sponsors of our sport. My objective for 2011 and beyond is to generate more funds from our own resources to ensure we can grow our sport. I am now close to reaching the first anniversary of joining Athletics Ireland and my wish as chief executive officer is that 2011 is a year where we can put the extraneous issues behind us and concentrate on growing our sport at every level in preparation for London 2012 and Rio de Janeiro 2016. I will ask Professor Ó Catháin to speak briefly about that before we conclude.

Chairman

Senator Mooney wishes to speak but I will ask him to do so after Professor Ó Catháin's remarks.

Senator Paschal Mooney

My concern is that I will be required to vote in the House. However, I am happy to wait as the delegation has been waiting for a long time.

Chairman

Before Professor Ó Catháin continues, I have known John Foley for many years both during my time as Minister and otherwise. He is a most professional and competent person at anything to he puts his hand to, and I wish him well in his new role. I believe he will do a great job. He has a huge passion for this area. He mentioned two matters in particular. Apart from looking after elite athletes such as David Gillick, who is a neighbour of mine in Ballinteer, Derval O'Rourke and others, he is correctly concentrating on the wider public. I ran ten marathons with the support of Mr. Frank Greally, a good friend who is in the Visitors Gallery. He has always been promoting public involvement in marathons. I ran ten of them, seven of them in Dublin. Indeed, my colleague, Deputy Mary Upton, has also done the same.

Deputy Mary Upton

Not ten.

Chairman

Not ten, but she is on the way. Wider public involvement is a very important area, as is promoting fitness. The committee has discussed it regularly. I also congratulate John Foley on his work regarding child welfare. I am thrilled with the emphasis contained in the presentation. It was what we are really about today.

I call Professor Ciarán Ó Catháin, who will be followed by Senator Mooney.

Professor Ciarán Ó Catháin

I moved back from Northern Ireland in 2000. My children got involved in athletics. I had been involved when I was growing up in Crumlin and would have trained in Sundrive Park, which is in the Chairman's constituency, in the early days. I never reached the same level as John Foley but I was a Dublin champion in my day. The children have been involved in athletics for ten years so I got involved with the local club in Roscommon. As Liam Hennessy said, one gets dragged in so I became treasurer and I have been chairman for a number of years of the Roscommon county board and the Roscommon club. I have a great interest in it and I have officiated at many events with Athletics Ireland over the past seven years. The organisation was seeking new faces to become involved and to bring a different level of expertise. I put my name forward at the bi-annual conference and was elected as chairman of the finance and risk committee.

It is one of five sub-committees of the board, each of which oversees and provides counsel to a specific element of the staff of the association. Each committee is chaired by a member of a six-person board which is elected, as I was, by the association's bi-annual general congress of members. Two further members, who are not on the board, are also elected by the general congress. The remaining three are co-opted by the committee itself on the basis of their specific technical expertise which is related to the work of the particular committee. The co-opted members of the finance and risk committee, for example, are an insurance official, an accountant and an outstanding young lecturer in law who has a background in athletics. My background is in higher education and my PhD is in organisational change. Issues of corporate governance are also paramount to us in Athlone and this inter-sectoral perspective is, I believe, of benefit to the work of Athletics Ireland.

Each committee meets to a regular timetable; for example, the finance and risk committee meets a week before the monthly board meeting, so I can then report to the board. At each committee meeting we get a brief from the appropriate staff as well as examine management accounts, contracts and agreements and any proposed transaction, policies or commitments. This committee is also responsible for overseeing the creation and management of budgets and submissions for funding, as well as all aspects of risk including insurance, health and safety and child welfare.

Each of the other four committees - coaching and development, high performance, competitions and juvenile - acts similarly. Above all, we are hugely cognisant of the financial support we receive from the Exchequer and the onus that places on us to be accountable to the Sports Council of Ireland as our funder, and ultimately to the Houses, for every cent received. It is clear from the discussion today that we have put huge emphasis in the last six months on the governance issue. We are working on it. This is a young organisation; it has only been professionalised over the last five years. The last two years have certainly been bruising for the organisation and there has been significant learning for it as a result of that. I think the organisation will be the better for it in future. Mr. Foley clearly laid out some of the issues we are now tackling. There is now a different structure within the board. A number of new people have joined the board who have not been involved in it or in the politics of the past. One can currently see a significant input from them on the board.

We are in the process of moving to a company limited by guarantee, which will bring all other responsibilities under the codes of corporate governance under the Companies Act and all the other legislative areas that will be supported in that respect. We will be moving into that in the new year. I would like to assure the committee that, certainly in my time - and I have been before many committees, including the Committee of Public Accounts in my other role as president of the Athlone Institute of Technology - we are well aware of the importance of governance and using procedures and policies that have been laid down. I can assure this committee that as long as I am in the position of chair of risk and finance, we will be adhering clearly to a strict code of governance for Athletics Ireland in future.

Chairman

I wish Professor Ó Catháin the very best. I appreciate his commitment and expertise in this area. I now call on Senator Mooney and thank him for his patience.

Senator Paschal Mooney

I wish to echo the welcoming comments of all the members, including the Chairman's, to the three AAI representatives. I agree that Liam Hennessy's name has been synonymous with athletics in Ireland as far back as I can remember. My initial involvement was with the Community Games, and then as a sports broadcaster with RTE. I cut my teeth in Ballinamore along with Pádraig Griffin who is a bit of a legendary figure. There is very little that he would not know about governance and administration. I have a couple of questions, one of which concerns North-South relations. Can Athletics Ireland representatives expand briefly on what the North-South relationship is? I have gaps in my knowledge in this regard. Are we united in terms of an island-wide athletics body, or is there still a partition between the two bodies? I understand that Northern athletes would obviously opt to participate in the Commonwealth Games, but perhaps the representatives could clarify the North-South relationship because it is obviously for the future betterment of sport in Ireland.

How far advanced is the AAI on coaching development? I can remember that for many years the major criticism was that we were not developing our own coaching facilities or expertise. Invariably, we relied to a large extent on international coaches across a number of sporting disciplines. In fact, I am old enough to remember that East German coaches were the flavour of the month here for some time. How far advanced is Athletics Ireland in that regard? Are we developing our own coaching structures here? Are sufficient resources being put into encouraging native talent to develop their coaching skills, as is happening in a wide variety of other sports?

The Olympic Games constitute an old chestnut. At every Olympic Games the expectation level rises to enormous heights, which is fuelled to a large extent by the interim performances of our athletes at various world and European championships where they seem to do very well. The media will focus on star names, yet when it comes to the Olympic Games they seem to fail miserably. In many cases, they do not reach personal bests or even reach the second round. The track records of individual athletes suggest that they will at least be medal contenders, but it just does not happen. Athletics Ireland must have looked at this question. I know that, in association with the Olympic Council of Ireland, there have been regular post-mortem reviews, particularly following the last two Olympic Games. Have Athletics Ireland representatives any answer as to what is wrong and why this level of expectation seems to fall flat? It does not help Athletics Ireland in terms of appealing to the younger generation who have many other sporting associations with which to get involved. Young people tend to follow success. If rugby is hugely successful, there will be a great degree of interest in that sport. Cricket is perhaps the best example of this phenomenon. It was not even on the radar until the Irish cricket team did so well in the world cup and then suddenly it was talked about and some schools introduced the sport to their curriculum. As Athletics Ireland representatives know, there is a very competitive environment in a small country such as ours.

I also wish to raise the issue of television coverage of sport. Perhaps it was remiss of me not to have welcomed Mr. John Foley and Professor Ciarán Ó Catháin to their new positions. Mr. Foley referred to the wonderful work Athletics Ireland is doing in attracting sponsors. Perhaps the difficulties involved in getting sponsorship in the current climate are not being fully acknowledged. In addition, athletics tend to operate in a competitive international environment when seeking sponsorship. One of the things sponsors look for - and Mr. Foley's marketing background will testify to this - is results. They want to know what will show up in print and electronic media coverage. In fairness to RTE, it has discharged its responsibilities well over the decades. It is all about competing resources. Now that we are in a multi-media environment, is Athletics Ireland looking at this area in terms of getting more coverage for the national championships, in addition to other ways of profiling athletics in Ireland? It seems to me that Athletics Ireland needs the oxygen of publicity. Inevitably, there is media coverage when we have an event such as that which occurred last weekend. That is great but it does not seem to be built upon. Does Athletics Ireland have this problem with convincing broadcasters?

I endorse everything that people have said here. It was an absolutely outstanding result, when one considers where we are coming from. Going back to the perception of expectations, we sometimes think we are world beaters when in fact, put in context, we are punching above our weight. That was a perfect example of it. The guys and Fionnuala Britton cannot be praised highly enough on their achievements last weekend, neither can the administrative staff behind them. I wish Athletics Ireland continued success.

Chairman

I thank Senator Mooney. We have 15 minutes left, so I would ask Athletics Ireland witnesses to hold on. Senator Mooney referred to the North-South dimension, encouraging native talent, the Olympic Games and TV coverage. I will now ask Deputies Kennedy and O'Mahony to make some brief closing remarks and then Mr. Liam Hennessy can answer the questions.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

I will be very brief, Chairman.

Senator Paschal Mooney

I am sorry but I will have to leave the meeting now.

Chairman

The Senator can check the record for the answers to his questions.

Senator Paschal Mooney

I will check the record.

Mr. John Foley

We will write to Senator Mooney concerning the questions he has raised.

Chairman

The reply will be on the record anyway.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

I wish Mr. John Foley and Professor Ciarán Ó Catháin well in their new posts. We are finishing on a positive note, which is where we said we would wind up after all the negative discussions we had. It is important to clear those negative aspects out of the way and move forward. The report we have received is excellent. In this day and age, any organisation that has increased its membership subscription numbers doing well. It is also excellent to increase sponsorship, including from major sponsors such as Aviva, in the current recessionary times. I congratulate the AAI's representatives. I have no doubt that in 2012 we will come back with Olympic medals, as we did last Sunday. I congratulate Mr. Liam Hennessy and all concerned with that under-23 victory.

I have no inside knowledge of sponsorship, but I remember years ago when Sonia O'Sullivan was at the height of her career, she was getting sponsorship all over the world. She was running in Zurich for gold bars and all of that. At the time, the Irish Sports Council was giving her sponsorship. When athletes are receiving a lot of additional income through personal sponsorship, perhaps State sponsorship should be directed to more up and coming athletes. I do not know whether that is still the case but I would like to hear Mr. Hennessy's view if it is still happening. Is it fair comment to ask whether the State should continue to sponsor somebody who is earning €200,000 from outside sponsorship, rather than putting the money towards others?

Chairman

I will now call on Deputy John O'Mahony, followed by Deputy Mary Upton for some closing remarks.

Deputy John O’Mahony

It is refreshing to get to this stage and finish on a positive note. We all join in offering our congratulations for the fantastic win at the weekend, as well as Derval O'Rourke's achievement during the summer. I wish to ask a couple of questions. Mr. Foley referred to high performance and the plan that was launched. It is confusing for people to see so many of our athletes abroad. We spoke here about it and asked the Minister, and we were hoping that many teams would come to use Ireland's facilities in advance of the Olympic Games. How many of the high performance athletes are training in Ireland? I understand Ms Derval O'Rourke is, and I am open to correction on that. More important, what is the connection with Athletics Ireland when those athletes are abroad? I understand that, through the high performance unit, all of their coaches, etc., must be accredited and accountable for the funding that these athletes get. Is there a disconnect? It would seem possibly that there might be a disconnect if those athletes are training abroad. I accept it is their own choice, but is there accountability for whom they appoint as back-room team abroad? From observation, some athletes would be on developmental funding for a number of years. Where is the development going if they are on similar funding?

Senator Mooney referred to the 32 county organisation. I understand the constitution of Athletics Ireland states that it is a 32 county organisation. Is there something different about the European body or is there some conflict there?

In reference to Professor Ó Catháin's contribution, I had the opportunity to visit Athlone this year for the Community Games where I saw at first hand their wonderful facilities. I am glad to hear that Professor Ó Catháin is developing the indoor facilities as well because Nenagh was a wonderful venue over the years but it was fairly basic. Certainly, there were many good performances there as well.

Deputy Mary Upton

I acknowledge the great work that is done in the athletes area. It is hugely important not only in terms of winning medals, but because there is nothing better for the state and mood of the nation than a green jersey with a gold medal or any medal. One cannot beat that combination. We are always delighted to see our athletes performing well.

It is also very encouraging for those who do not make it on to the podium that they are doing really well internationally. We recognise that some of them, particularly the younger ones, have a long way to go, have considerable potential and, obviously, have a great future ahead of them. On something Deputy Kennedy stated, perhaps young athletes in particular should be given greater encouragement and, maybe, greater support.

The other significant aspect is that it is not always competitive. It must be fun as well. Obviously, we are very interested in and concerned about people being involved in sport and it must be fun. There are those who like to compete and always want to win, and that is great, but there are those who just want to have a bit of fun and take part. We must keep an eye on each side of that and keep the balance right.

We should acknowledge the work of the volunteers who do a considerable amount of work. Many of these organisations and associations would be nowhere without them. I finish on that positive note.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

Mr. Foley might need to clarify a couple of the high-performance issues. On the issue twice raised about the North-South situation, Athletics Ireland is a 26 county body affiliated to European Athletics and to the IAAF. Within the overall structure, we have strong liaison with Athletics Northern Ireland and the Ulster Athletics Council. There is strong liaison between all three bodies and we meet on a regular basis. The current position is that virtually everything is being done on an all-island basis - competition, coaching and overall co-ordination. The aim of this is to maximise every potential resource on the island of Ireland to the benefit of all the athletes. The exact position is that we are a 26 county body and that is according to the rules of the IAAF, the world governing body. However, it is more complex than that in terms of the overall co-ordination.

For the past number of years, there is a person from Athletics Northern Ireland who sits on our board and we have somebody who sits on its board. Then there is the Ulster Athletics Council, which covers the Six Counties and which has this overall co-ordination to the extent that everything it does is facilitated by the Athletics Northern Ireland office in Belfast, and there is one office dealing with it all. It is a significant advance to the sport. I am really proud of the work that has been done in the past number of years in that regard.

There used to be a major issue surrounding the possibility of athletes competing for Ireland. At this stage virtually everybody in Northern Ireland competes for us and there are many reasons for doing so. Virtually every Northern athlete comes into our system. The committee will note that from the past couple of years in terms of the massive success.

Chairman

We will give our guests five minutes of extra time. We will try to involve Mr. Foley and Professor Ó Catháin.

Mr. Liam Hennessy

We are happy with the work that is being done on that. We are progressing every avenue in that regard as time goes on.

The second point raised was about coaching and where we are in the progression. Much work has been done on that in recent times. I am particularly pleased with the work and the initiatives by the coaching and development committee in recent times under the chairmanship of Mr. Jim Kidd in terms of the overall co-ordination in that area. It involves our development officers working in conjunction with coaching and all of the various agencies, particularly Coaching Ireland. I see significant opportunities with Coaching Northern Ireland as well. There is much work being done between the sports council here and the sports council in Northern Ireland, but there is more that can be done in that area. There are developments and there is a fair bit more work to be done on that area.

On the question of the Olympic Games in terms of how important it is and the success, or lack of it, in that regard, I would say that we have progressed quite a bit in the past number of years in that area. Even the Beijing games were reasonable good for us. For the first time ever, we had two athletes finishing in the top eight and a number of finalists. They did not win medals but at that level it was quite a significant breakthrough. The following year at the world championships in Berlin we had a second, a fourth and a sixth place in finals. The world championships and Olympic Games in athletics are at quite an extraordinary level. There are 210 countries affiliated to the IAAF, which is the biggest sporting organisation in the world. If one looks at the way the medals are spread in recent times and the developments in various other places such as the Third World areas, it is getting ever more difficult to achieve success. The Olympic Games and world championships are the pinnacle but they are not the Holy Grail. They are not everything but they are hugely important in terms of public perception. Of course, we would always aspire to it. On an overall basis, we would place significant emphasis on trying to achieve success at European championships level. We place particular emphasis on our youth and junior development programme. I can state unequivocally that our current youths and juniors are the best crop of athletes that this sport has ever had.

My own background in the sport is strongly based on statistics because I am a member of the International Association of Track and Field Statisticians. I developed the all-time ranking lists in Ireland over 30 years ago. I might not be an expert in many areas but I can certainly claim to be an absolute expert in that area. As such, I know that athletics is based purely on statistics, and one can track the development of it. At this stage, we have the best crop ever.

Moving on to 2016, I would be quite hopeful that we can progress substantially in that area. We have already achieved a good deal. This is a considerable challenge for Mr. Foley, as CEO, to ensure that these youths and juniors are provided for in the best possible terms as we progress. This is the single most important issue for us. We have the group of people and we were exceptionally successful at the European Youth Olympic Festival the year before last. Those athletes are due to compete in the European Junior Championships next year where we will really see are we making progress at that level. I think we will achieve success. To really show that the programme is working, we will need to do well at the European Youth Olympic Festival next year. Our performance at those championships will indicate how well the programme is operating.

Mr. Foley identified the major gap that exists in respect of the criteria laid down by the Irish Sports Council in certain areas. The Irish Sports Council requires a very clear process with regard to providing grant aid to athletes. There is now a process which the council operates in conjunction with us and in respect of which we fought long and hard. However, there are gaps in the system and, for one reason or another, certain athletes fall through those gaps. Mr. Foley is trying to create a fund from which money can be drawn down to assist the athletes who fall through the gaps to which I refer. Our budget was agreed at a meeting of the board last week. We only discovered on the day before that meeting what would be our budget. Provision has been made in our budget, for the first time ever, for some support to the athletes to whom I refer.

The issue with regard to television coverage is interesting. We have a very good relationship with RTE and we have found Mr. Ryle Nugent, the station's head of sport, to be quite helpful. Mr. Foley and I recently held a meeting with Mr. Nugent in respect of next year's television coverage. RTE is experiencing difficulties at present with the cost factors involved. However, we have received quite good support from the station. RTE was one of the few national broadcasters which showed live coverage of the European Cross Country Championships last weekend. Many other national broadcasters only showed delayed coverage. We thank RTE for its efforts in this regard because the fact that the event was shown live in this country reflected hugely on us.

RTE is also covering the indoor championships in Belfast. The latter is a great indicator of the development that has taken place in the North, where various championships are now held. RTE will also be broadcasting coverage of our outdoor championships. In addition, it will be covering the European indoor athletics championships in Paris next year. We have done a great deal of work with the station. I accept that no one is ever satisfied with regard to the amount of coverage. However, we must remain cognisant of the limited resources available to RTE. I reiterate that we are quite pleased with the coverage our sport receives.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Hennessy. Does Mr. Foley wish to comment further?

Mr. John Foley

If one examines the position with regard to carding and the support we provide to young athletes, 48 junior athletes are in receipt of funding. There are 17 individuals in the development phase. In that context, as one rises on the ladder, one receives more money. We are supporting these athletes to ensure they have the type of lifestyle they require to be able to run.

At international level, athletes such as Jamie Costin, Alistair Cragg and so on are funded to the tune of €12,000 per year. World class athletes, of whom there are four in this country, including Paul Hession, receive €20,000 per year. The three athletes on contracts in 2010 - Olive Loughnane, David Gillick and Derval O'Rourke - received €40,000 in taxpayers' money.

We are making a great deal of progress in respect of the coaching structure to which I referred earlier. Terri and Seán Cahill currently coach Derval O'Rourke. David Gillick recently decided that he would be best served by moving from his base at Loughborough in the UK to Florida, where he will be coached by the same individual who coaches Tyson Gay. David will be training in a very structured environment and we will receive ongoing reports on how he is progressing. We will also be helping to fund his medical and science programmes on an ongoing basis.

Deputy Kennedy inquired about supplementing the incomes of those who are making a fortune. At present, not many people are making a great deal of money. In the UK, athletes who make significant amounts of money receive either less or no support from the state. I hope we will reach the stage where some of our athletes will be earning six-figure sums and we will then be able to negotiate with them in respect of reducing our level of support. However, those negotiations will be quite difficult because we must ensure we continue to support our athletes.

Deputy John O’Mahony

What is the level of contact between Irish athletes abroad and Athletics Ireland?

Mr. John Foley

We have contact with them on an ongoing basis. In the absence of a high performance director, I am responsible for dealing with this matter. There are far fewer people training abroad than was the case in the past. Athletes such as Derval O'Rourke, Olive Loughnane and Rob Heffernan have remained at home. They travel abroad to train at altitude, etc. but living and training abroad on a permanent basis is more the exception than the rule at present.

Deputy John O’Mahony

There is ongoing contact and reports are received.

Mr. John Foley

Absolutely. At the start of the year, each athlete must provide me with a plan which I then submit to the Irish Sports Council and the Institute of Sport. The latter is to ensure a proper structure is in place in order that the necessary funding can be provided.

Deputy John O’Mahony

When training camps take place in advance of major championships, do all the athletes attend?

Mr. John Foley

It depends on the circumstances.

Deputy John O’Mahony

Do the athletes make the decision on whether to attend?

Mr. John Foley

It depends on their circumstances. There may be a particular reason an athlete might decide not to attend a training camp. The athletes in question are all quite driven individuals and they will do whatever they believe to be right for themselves. Usually, we agree with whatever it is they want to do. Some people like to come to a championships late - perhaps the day before their event takes place - rather than living in a camp environment where the level of pressure can be high. Some individuals like to remain away from that pressure and we must be cognisant of their needs. Ultimately, it is all about the athlete and ensuring he or she is in the right environment and in the correct frame of mind to allow him or her to compete. It is our job to facilitate the athletes and ensure they are ready to compete.

Chairman

I thank our guests for attending. I thank the members who have remained for the entirety of this three hour meeting. I had initially intended to spend a small amount of time discussing the outstanding issue in respect of Mr. Hennessy's previous appearance before the committee. He answered our questions in a forthright manner. As he is aware, it is our job to pose the difficult questions and we thank him for his responses. As far as I am concerned, the outstanding issues have been dealt with and what is most important is what happens from now on.

I speak on behalf of all the members when I state that we are impressed with Athletics Ireland's plans for the future. Mr. Foley and Professor Ó Catháin provided specific information in respect of their roles, the new members of the board, etc. Our main concern is that the sport of athletics should be the winner. I am aware of where our guests, as individuals, are coming from and of the experience they have gained in dealing with our many fantastic athletes and the wider public.

I wish our guests a happy Christmas. I also wish them well in their endeavours. The committee will now adjourn until its next meeting on 12 January next.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.10 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 12 January 2010.