Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON TOURISM, CULTURE, SPORT, COMMUNITY, EQUALITY AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 Jan 2011

Governance in Irish Sport: Discussion

I welcome Ms Mary Coghlan who is a former chief executive officer of Athletics Ireland. I advise Ms Coghlan of the following which is said to every witness who appears before our committee.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Ms Coghlan is a former chief executive officer of Athletics Ireland and, as such, we are very interested to hear her views and suggestions on the future governance of Irish support. The committee is fully aware of the history of her appointment as chief executive officer of Athletics Ireland, her period in office and the circumstances surrounding the cessation of her holding of that position. The committee fully acknowledges that this matter resulted in court proceedings being initiated and that she was fully vindicated as a result of those proceedings. The committee accepts her bona fides without reservation and is interested to hear her suggestions on the governance procedures required in Irish sport in the future.

The committee does not believe it is appropriate that the issue of the court proceedings or the contents of any publication that followed from the court proceedings be discussed. As I indicated to Ms Coghlan, the committee has already had a discussion on this and we feel there is no purpose in again discussing an issue that has already been fully settled and in which she has been fully vindicated. Therefore, the committee is not prepared to discuss those issues today.

That said, in the interests of athletics and sport in Ireland, the members and I were anxious to deal with this in an open and transparent a way as possible, subject to our own restrictions. As Ms Coghlan is aware, we have had meetings with Mr. John Treacy, Mr. Kieran Mulvey, the new chairman of the Irish Sports Council, and Athletics Ireland. We genuinely felt Ms Coghlan needed a chance to appear before the committee. However, our focus is very much on her ideas about good governance in Irish sport because we believe her voice is very important. We are conscious of the history attached to her involvement with Athletics Ireland.

As Chairman of this committee, I must inform Ms Coghlan that if I instruct her to desist from a particular statement, she must do so immediately.

As a person with a keen interest in and much experience of Irish sport, I and all the members are very interested to hear Ms Coghlan's views and suggestions on future governance of Irish sport. I have also received correspondence from Mr. Kieran Mulvey, chairman of the Irish Sports Council, in regard to matters concerning the council. While these are related to today's topic, they are separate and need to be discussed separately. Accordingly, I intend to circulate this correspondence prior to our next meeting and discuss it as a specific item on the agenda in public if the committee so agrees. More likely than not, this will be an ongoing deliberation under the next Government.

As chairman of this committee, I am very pleased to welcome Ms Coghlan to talk to us. However, we must concentrate on the advice she can give us on good governance.

Ms Mary Coghlan

From May 2008 to July 2009 I served as chief officer of Athletics Ireland. Prior to this role, I worked as an actuary for more than 15 years in various insurance companies. Alongside this, I was involved in the sport of athletics as a participant and as an administrator. Most notably, I was a board member of Athletics Ireland and chaired its finance and risk committee for two years prior to my appointment as chief executive officer of the organisation.

My brother Peter is an Irish record holder and Olympian and my brother John currently coaches some of the country's most promising athletes. I and my family have strong links with the sport of athletics.

I am here to talk about the subject of good governance in Irish sport and I welcome the committee's interest in this subject and thank it for the invitation to speak on it. I particularly thank the committee for its ongoing interest in the events surrounding my appointment and subsequent events as they relate to governance in sport and transparency about expenditure of taxpayer funds. The committee's input into the subject has provided a platform for informed discussion on some of the points raised by my case and without this, some key issues would simply have been swept under the carpet.

The committee chairman has asked me for my views on the changes I would recommend for the future based on the specifics of my case and my experience in general. I welcome the opportunity to communicate these in a positive environment. I will speak about issues relating to the work Irish Sports Council and my experience of it and what I see as positive changes for the future, based on what happened in the past.

Since the establishment of the Irish Sports Council, approximately €400 million has been channelled through the organisation to elite athletes, governing bodies of sport as well as to local sports partnerships and there is no doubt that much good has been accomplished as a result of this. However, in establishing value for money in the long term, I suggest some priorities that should be addressed in order to move to best practice governance. I emphasise this is based on my experience.

The Irish Sports Council should set out its own governance standards after an independent review of same to be conducted immediately and concluded as soon as possible. It can only be credible in demanding governance standards in the organisations it funds when it is seen to be fully compliant with a high standard of governance itself. An independent review of the Irish Sports Council's governance standards and its past performance with regard to internal governance should be carried out by an independent body to be appointed by the Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport. If this was done, the damage to the credibility suffered by the organisation and the breakdown in trust between it and some if its key stakeholders would begin to be restored.

The Irish Sports Council should operate its strategic and operational plans with due regard to outcomes and their public measurement. I suggest immediate publication of a five-year strategic plan, a 2011 operating plan and a quarterly publication of performance benchmarked against objectives to commence in the first quarter of 2011. I suggest a detailed review in each quarter. Currently the 2009-11 plan is on the Irish Sports Council's website. I am not critical of it as there is nothing inherently wrong with its contents but a credible follow-up to this plan would take a different shape especially in terms of its strategic approach to implementation and specification objectives.

The Irish Sports Council should support national governing bodies as they move to increasingly professional standards in a fully transparent manner. Direct links should be created to levels of funding with levels of registered membership, elite achievement, club development and participation. It should be very explicit about these areas, not just to increase participation, but to sit down and decide what exactly are those objectives, otherwise they are always subject to interpretation. That is what we need to move away from. Funding should be contingent on certain minimum standards in the areas of child welfare and governance, all of which should be fully documented. There is some documentation on the Irish Sports Council website on this area on toolkits for national governing bodies. However, the documents on the website refer repeatedly to Australian legislation and infrastructure. I do not doubt there is good in that but at the same time, is it fit for purpose that it is referring to Australian legislation? It possibly undermines the strength of what it has to say by being seen to be doing that rather than have a discussion in an Irish context on the subject. The Irish Sports Council should operate in a collaborate manner with the national governing bodies and its leadership should mirror that spirit of collaboration.

Contact with national governing bodies should only occur on a formal level, with more than one representative from each body present, with full minutes to be agreed by both sides. The representation of the national governing bodies should be fully decided by the national governing bodies themselves. In particular, there should be a "off-line" meetings with individuals from governing bodies where separate understandings to those signed off by the boards of both bodies are discussed.

This may seem unusual in its formality, but this was a key area of difficulty in my tenure as CEO of Athletics Ireland and I believe that in order to re-establish the required levels of professional trust between at least some governing bodies and the National Sports Council this is required in the short to medium term. It should also be borne in mind that as it is taxpayers' money that is being distributed by the Irish Sports Council, a high degree of transparency and accountability should be brought to any transactions, including meeting between individuals in the bodies, with organisations which are in receipt of funding.

The withholding of any allocated funding from governing bodies should not be left to the discretion of the Irish Sports Council CEO or any sports council executive for that matter. Indeed, it should be so serious a matter that this step should be taken only with the approval of the Minister.

As per the recommendations of the Crawford report - I recommend it as reading for anybody interested in this area - regarding itsAustralian equivalent, the Irish Institute of Sport should be separate from the sports council as originally intended. It should compete for business with private sector providers on an equal footing basis, and not be tied to the Irish Sports Council. This would ensure that the highest quality of service provision was available to elite athletes and would remove any suggestion of conflict of interest.

The Irish Sports Council should publish standards for professional appointments to national governing bodies and oversee the implementation of those standards but otherwise, it should play no role in the selection of staff in national governing bodies. In particular, it should be very dear to all parties that the sports council does not have a veto over staff appointments in governing bodies.

The Irish Sports Council should respect the autonomy of high performance units within governing bodies. Its role should be restricted to the creation of standards of best practice in the administration and management of such units and the oversight of same but it should have a role in the day-to-day delivery of high performance services for specific sports. Carding for elite athletes should be administered through the governing bodies and the sports council should not have any input or influence on elite athletes directly through funding controls, that is, these should be decided by the governing bodies and supported by best practice guidelines as facilitated by the sports council. These steps would facilitate meaningful feedback and input from elite athletes and help guide improvements in high performance systems without the fear of recrimination that currently exists and that I am aware of from direct contact with elite athletes.

The Irish Sports Council should be required to formally report each year on the legal costs and actions it has undertaken in the course of the year. A State body has an unfair advantage in going to law as there are no financial consequences for its executive. Permission for such action should be sought from the council members and the Minister. If and when cases arise, there should be a process in place where any individuals directly involved with the case are placed at arms length from strategic decisions which directly affect the case.

These are some suggestions which I hope will get the ball rolling on a debate about the subject. They reflect my direct experience of some of the areas where significant short-term improvements can be made. Some areas are better than others and I do not wish to downplay the many areas where the Irish Sports Council has made a positive difference in the years since its establishment. Given this fact, I would encourage people that rather than become defensive about the status quo, they should be prepared to reflect on mistakes of the past and use them for the benefit of the future.

What history shows and what the committee, working with the Minister and the Irish Sports Council members must ensure cannot again happen, is that the Irish Sports Council acts as a law unto itself, without political or any other type of oversight in a way that is damaging to the development of sport in Ireland. Fundamentally, the remit of the council needs to be firmly and formally established and that remit should be explicit about the unacceptability of interference by the Irish Sports Council in the day-to-day activities of the governing bodies - with particular emphasis on senior appointments within these organisations. The implications of failure in the above areas in the years since its establishment were evident in the events surroundingmy employment with Athletics Ireland. Ultimately the taxpayer bore the cost of this.

One of the fallouts of the situation that was created in Athletics Ireland was the inability of the organisation to hire a director of athletics due to Irish Sports Council's rolein the original process which took place almost two and a half years ago. The people who suffer as a result of this are the athletes and it saddens me that only 18 months before the London Olympics, there is still no advance on this issue within Athletics Ireland.

I thank the committee for its interest in and engagement with the issues being discussed here today. I would be happy to elaborate on any point on which members seek clarification and to answer any questions they may have.

I thank Ms Coghlan for her presentation and for entering into the spirit of my opening remarks. Those remarks were genuinely made because of the danger of interfering with genuine athletes that Ms Coghlan and this committee want to represent. She summed it up well in her final remarks in expressing her interest that they be protected. In the brief time in which I have been Chairman of this committee, and there are only a few weeks remaining-----

It is four weeks? It is my experience, as a huge fan of sports and athletes, that there is too much politics in athletics, and we all know that. We need to take much of the politics out of it and get all the energy focused on the athletes. We must ensure they get good value for the €400 million that Ms Coghlan rightly identified as a sizeable portion of taxpayers' money, which must be well spent. She acknowledged the good work done especially in the high performance area and we wish all our athletes well. We also want transparency. My objective as Chairman of the committee, acting on everybody's behalf, is to be as transparent as I can within the legal restraints within which we have to operate on this issue and in regard to the workings of the Irish Sports Council and the national governing bodies. Ms Coghlan's presence here represents our acknowledgement of that fact. That is all I wish to say on the matter.

I thank Ms Coghlan for her presentation. I have a number of observations I wish to make but we will first take the contributions of Deputies O'Mahony, Upton and Kennedy and Senators Mooney, Ó Murchú and Buttimer. Members have a major interest in this matter and in the past we had representations from Mr. Kieran Mulvey and Mr. John Treacy in respect of it. We have done out best to try to delve into this matter but, quite frankly, our focus is on the future. The London Olympics are coming up in 2012 and we want to get everyone involved in ensuring that our athletes and other sports people will be catered for. That is our focus.

I apologise for my late arrival. I was unavoidably delayed on my way here. I have been informed of the decisions made by the committee in private session. In such circumstances, perhaps the Chairman will call me to order if I overstep the mark.

I welcome Ms Coghlan. It is of assistance to place on record details of recent events vis-à-vis court cases and the governance of sport in Ireland. In that context, it is in the interests of Ms Coghlan, the Irish Sports Council and the committee that this opportunity has been provided. Like other members, I have stated in recent years that an independent investigation should have been carried out in respect of the issue at hand. If that had happened, the various meetings, etc., involving the committee, Athletics Ireland and the Irish Sports Council could have been avoided. As the famous phrase has it, however, “We are where we are”. It is time to move on.

In the wider context of the governance of sport, Ms Coghlan has indicated that a certain level of dysfunction is apparent. She provided a number of positive suggestions - in the context of the structures which might be put in place - with regard to how this should be corrected. This issue is going to have to be addressed as we move forward. As the Chairman stated, the challenge for people involved in sport and in the governance thereof in this country is the need to facilitate the achievement of excellence on both an individual and team basis. No athlete or team can win Olympic medals or whatever if everyone is not singing from the same hymn sheet. Regardless of the side people have taken in respect of this issue, everyone present would agree that the latter has not been the case in recent years. It is in everyone's interest, therefore, to ensure that we get matters right.

Will Ms Coghlan comment on the role played by the Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport and her predecessors in respect of this matter? In Ms Coghlan's opinion, what role should the Minister play with regard to the governance of sport? When I mentioned legal disputes and issues, I was referring to such disputes in the wider context and to the concept of mediation. Is there a method of mediation which could be put in place which would be of assistance in helping to avoid the issues that arose in the past?

Ms Coghlan's points regarding the relationship between the Irish Sports Council and the governing bodies are interesting. She appears to be suggesting that the council is telling the governing bodies how to run their affairs when in some instances an evaluation must be carried out in respect of the former's role. There are many issues which arise in this regard and I would welcome it if Ms Coghlan could expand on what she stated earlier.

Mr. Brendan Hackett was CEO of Athletics Ireland prior to Ms Coghlan who, in turn, was replaced by Mr. John Foley. Representatives from Athletics Ireland recently appeared before the committee and we discussed the appointment of CEOs and the making of appointments within governing bodies. On the occasion to which I refer, observations were offered in respect of the interview procedures used and the make-up of interview boards. My impression in respect of all of the appointments - including that of Ms Coghlan - is that many loopholes were left open and that the process adopted in this regard was not good, particularly in the context of people being appointed without being obliged to interview. Will Ms Coghlan comment on that matter?

Deputy O'Mahony referred to the role of the Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport in the context of the governance of sport, the relationship between the Irish Sports Council and the national governing bodies and the general procedures that apply in respect of the appointment of CEOs. Perhaps Ms Coghlan will take note of the questions he posed in respect of these matters. We will take questions from Deputies Upton and Kennedy before asking her to reply. That is how we normally proceed.

I thank Ms Coghlan for her presentation. I am glad she has attended the committee today. I wish to acknowledge her own distinguished career and her great interest - and that of her family - in sport. I appreciate her commitment to sport. From everything I have seen and read, I am aware that her efforts and energy have always been devoted to sport. It is important to acknowledge that fact.

If we consider how children become involved in sport in general and in athletics in particular, it is clear that they want to run in and win the race. Some of them simply want to be acknowledged for finishing the race, as is the case for some of us who have competed in the Dublin marathon. Above everything else, we must bear in mind that those to whom we are offering the opportunity to partake in sport are the key players. In the context of the various matters relating to the governance of sport, the distribution of moneys, etc., let us recall that it is people's participation and the spin-off into society in general to which this gives rise which are so important. We must also acknowledge, however, that sport has become big business in many ways. That is a fact of life.

I like to see children participating in sport. Participation is extremely important from everyone's point of view. However, it is important to remember that we have an obligation to present the green jersey in the best possible light. Our resources must be devoted to achieving these two objectives, namely, participation and achievement - at whatever level this might occur - in sport.

Ms Coghlan referred to the amount of money allocated to the Irish Sports Council. This money has been very well spent and we have enjoyed some great sporting successes. It is a great shame, however, that Ms Coghlan was prompted to comment that the Irish Sports Council should be required to formally report each year on the legal costs and actions it has undertaken in the course of the year. We should be attempting to avoid the necessity of paying legal costs. Is Ms Coghlan of the view that a commitment to mediation should be a prerequisite for funding? Before anyone considers going down the legal route, he or she would adhere to a code of practice, which would formally ensure mediation took place somewhere along the way. We have examples of that. It works well in the GAA and Just Sport Ireland has a formula. Many other countries have similar systems. There will be occasions when it will not work but it should be a first step. I would like Ms Coghlan to comment on that.

I have read through the ten key issues in the submission and I cannot disagree with any of them. The blueprint Ms Coghlan set out is good and it should be elaborated on. All the points she makes are crucial. Deputy O'Mahony also mentioned the role of the Minister and surely, at the end of the day, he or she should be responsible for sports policy and its broad direction and not the day-to-day management. Funding is important if one is to achieve but the withholding of funding is inappropriate unless clear reasons are given. The only person ultimately who should have responsibility for that is the Minister and it should not be allowed to be hived off to any other organisation or body.

What are Ms Coghlan's view on the appointments process in general? What composition should an interview panel take in making formal appointments at any level, including the chief executive officers ISC, the NGBs and so on? What interests and expertise should prevail on the board of the Irish Sports Council? What associations should be represented and what proportion of different interests should be represented on it?

I cannot disagree with the key issues raised by Ms Coghlan. They should not apply only to sporting organisations. Many of them could apply across the board. They relate to basic common sense and good governance.

I welcome Ms Coghlan with whom I have had discussions in the past. I congratulate her on her personal as well as her professional involvement and I wish her well in the future.

The recommendations she has made are sensible and reasonable. If some of them had been in place, Ms Coghlan might not be appearing before the committee in this context. The ISC has a veto on NGBs. Is it her understanding that this has been a problem, ignoring her own position? Is this widespread? I agree with her that the NGBs should be able to make their own appointments in accordance with good practice and good governance.

I agree with Deputy Upton that where mediation is appropriate, it should become a priority for anybody at this juncture rather than wasting huge amounts on legal costs, particularly in the current financial climate where every euro allocated to the council should be diverted to athletes and sports. It is logical that any organisation should endeavour to adopt a mediation process in order that High Court actions and so on are avoided.

Ms Coghlan referred to the failure to hire a director of athletics for the London Olympics. Has she suggestions on how progress could be made on that?

I also welcome Ms Coghlan. The theme of the meeting - good governance in sport - is apt because relationships are breaking down in various governing bodies such as those with responsibility for athletics, showjumping and boxing, and, even within the GAA regarding certain issues and the IRFU in regard to ticket prices when it did not listen to its own membership. I could list a number of sports in which there are differences and in which governance needs to be examined in a wider context.

Bureaucracy in sport is increasing. There is also a duplication of roles in the institute of sport, the ISC, the high performance unit and NGBs and, as Deputies Upton and O'Mahony said, our sole focus must be on driving our athletes to pursue and achieve their best. Is there too much duplication?

What is Ms Coghlan's view on a more effective use of resources? What will the local sports partnerships that have been established achieve? How will they enable talented sports people to move to the next level?

Representatives of the OCI and ISC have appeared before the committee. How can we solve the problem where an athlete works with the ISC, the high performance unit and his or her governing body for four years prior to the Olympic Games but when it comes to the games, that support ends and a different group of people is brought in? It is like a turf war. I hope that, as a consequence of the appointment of Kieran Mulvey and our deliberations, our athletes will come first because if we do not do that, the massive funding we have invested will be wasted and we will continue to have the blazers fighting, to borrow Roy Keane's description, while the athletes suffer. We cannot allow that to continue.

The Senator has captured the view of the committee in his closing comment about the importance of listening to the participants and the athletes. I said to Ms Coghlan when we met before the meeting that the committee should pursue a serious assessment of good governance in Irish sport. We want to make sure everybody makes a fair contribution to the debate, including Ms Coghlan, but we also want to move on to involve others to ensure we get everything right. Senator Buttimer is correct that we should involve the participants, the athletes and those involved in team sports in this debate and I will do my utmost to pass this legacy issue to the next Oireachtas committee dealing with this sector. When the IRFU made a mistake on ticket prices, Brian O'Driscoll spoke out about the impact of an empty stadium on the morale and spirit of the team. A major error was made. It is important that every organisation listens to its players, the wider public and politicians on issues. It is important we involve sports people and athletes in the debate and ensure we get it right. I echo what my colleagues have said and would add a final point.

As Chairman of this committee, when speaking to the Irish Sports Council and others at this committee, I have pushed the issue of the ordinary person. Ms Coghlan has mentioned the participation of the wider public in sport, especially young children. I am very interested in the work being done in that regard. We had a special session on the work being done in schools, such as the Walk on Wednesday programme. Fantastic work is going on in many schools to promote fitness and healthy lifestyles and to ensure that children get the chance to walk or cycle to school in an organised way. We now have electronic measurement of what is happening.

I am reminded of the 1980s when I got sucked into the marathon rage that was going on then and ended up doing a marathon. Deputy Mary Upton did a marathon recently and many others on this committee have also been involved in running. I keep saying to Deputy Upton that I can see her and raise her a few, because I managed, purely by accident, to do several marathons. Through friends and because I was at the end of my footballing days, I got sucked into the marathon rage in the 1980s and having started by just jogging around Marlay Park, I ended up doing ten marathons, seven in Dublin and others in Boston, Berlin and Belfast. Marathon running was something that just caught on at that time. Many people would become involved in fitness and running programmes if there was an organised structure there for them, such as one that started in schools. This would help them become involved in fitness, running and walking, etc. There is a huge responsibility on the Irish Sports Council to keep that agenda going. It is doing excellent work, but I would like to see more being done in that area. Perhaps Ms Coghlan will have more to say on the issue.

We have seen the evidence on obesity, etc. Our national broadcaster and other media are doing all sorts of programmes on the issue, but the key is to start fitness programmes at an early age. We should encourage the Irish Sports Council to get involved in that regard. I invite Ms Coghlan to respond to this summary of our views.

Ms Mary Coghlan

The members have raised a wide spectrum of issues. I will begin with those raised by Deputy O'Mahony and would ask members to prompt me if I forget to refer to any issue. Both Deputies Upton and O'Mahony raised the issue of the role of the Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport in this case and more generally. I believe a mistake was made in seeking a report from one of the parties. This is not a reflection on the party in question, but in this situation there were three parties involved. When one considers it, would one ask Anglo Irish Bank to do a report on the banking system? I will not make any comment other than to say that would not be a great idea. That is analogous to what happened here and to some extent it has caused the situation to rumble on. I believe an independent investigation or review of what happened would have been valuable and would be worth conducting even at this stage. It would not just benefit my case but would benefit sport in general and the Irish Sports Council in particular, because its credibility has suffered as a result of this and other high profile situations. It would help the council get on the right footing where it could say it is looking to the future and acknowledges it has made mistakes. Who has not make mistakes? A review would help it look inside itself and then move on. That opportunity exists even now. It should not be called an investigation into the Mary Coghlan case, but be something broader and more positive and constructive. That would be beneficial.

With regard to the role of the Minister, if one made inflation adjustments to the moneys that have been channelled through the Irish Sports Council in the past 12 years, the amount in question would be over half a billion euro. That is a significant amount. I understand there is a general problem with regard to State bodies as to the role of the Minister and the extent to which the body has autonomy, but I cannot understand how a Minister can say an issue has nothing to do with him or her. The Minister makes a decision each year at Cabinet level on the amount of money that is to go to a body. The moneys being allocated to the Irish Sports Council this year, 2011, is approximately €50 million - a lot of money. Therefore, I do not understand how a Minister can say that he or she cannot be involved in the policy or detail of how an organisation receiving such an amount is run. I would advocate a more hands-on approach. In my case, I informed the Minister of the situation, but possibly because of the legal status, it was difficult for the Minister to become involved. I was slightly disappointed with that input. There are lessons to be learned from that and important improvements made for the future.

A number of members raised the issue of mediation. I agree that sports organisations in receipt of funding should have to sign up to an agreed form of mediation. Just as there are certain standards for child welfare and governance, we should also have standards for mediation. The subtleties of particular cases may make that difficult because, for example, employment law and anti-doping laws are dealt with elsewhere currently. Of course, there is a particular difficulty if it is the Irish Sports Council itself that is the subject of the dispute. However, mediation must be the way forward. I was happy to hear, when Mr. Kieran Mulvey appeared before this committee in October, that mediation would be offered in the other case outstanding against the Irish Sports Council. Hopefully, that will bring about a positive resolution.

An issue that arises time and again is the relationship between the Irish Sports Council and the governing bodies. Relationships in sport are difficult. A person who appeared before this committee previously stated that the politics of sport are more political than the politics of politics. That is quite accurate. Managing relationships in sport is an area fraught with minefields, which is the reason we need to consider having a zero tolerance attitude in terms of guidelines. We need to set out clearly the rules of engagement for meetings between sports bodies, such as the Irish Sports Council and a governing body or the Olympic Council and the Irish Sports Council. While I am not saying there is too much of the attitude that a nod is as good as a wink, the perception is there that a nod is as good as a wink. That is bad for sport and for its image and for the image of the administration of sport. Moving to a more formal platform would benefit everybody. People would feel they were on a level playing field and that the different governing bodies of sport were being treated fairly and equally. Currently the perception is that is not the case and whether it is fair is another debate.

Deputy O'Mahony also raised the issue of the appointment of CEOs. This comes back to the area of politics within sport. The appointment of CEOs within sport and the appointment of managers of GAA teams or whatever are areas which give rise to much debate. With regard to the process involved in my appointment, I was subject to an interview process, to psychometric testing, reference checking and to all that is involved. From my knowledge, the process was entirely proper and that is my experience. I do not want to get involved in commenting on any other specific appointments, but would say that appointment processes must be absolutely above board. There must, for example, be independent representation on interview panels and there should also be representation from the board of the sport involved. With regard to the role of the Irish Sports Council, by and large it funds the positions so it must be satisfied that a satisfactory process is in place that will uphold standards of good governance. Therefore, the governing body of the sport should be able to say it is running the recruitment and interview process, name the people who will be on the interview board and explain the process it will follow. Its proposals should comply with the council's published standards and it should ensure the council has no issue with its proposed process. The problem with having a representative of the Irish Sports Council on an interview panel is that, rightly or wrongly, that person is seen as someone who is there to say who should be hired or who the council will fund. I am not saying this is the case in practice but rather this may be the perception or the view of people that pressure is being applied to them. This is why I see the role as being an oversight role rather than a hands-on direct role. This should keep everybody happy and remove any perception of interference or pressure being applied. I hope I have dealt with the issues raised by Deputy O'Mahony and I will now deal with Deputy Upton's questions.

I agree that mediation should be used and its use should be a prerequisite for obtaining funding. I have covered the issue of what the Minister's role should be. I refer to the interesting point about the board of the Irish Sports Council and possibly about the boards of the governing bodies of individual sports. I have served as a volunteer board member of the Athletics Association of Ireland and it was a very positive experience. One of the great strengths is that a board consists of a group of people who are passionate about the sport and love it but, unfortunately, this can also be a drawback. If the committee is examining good governance in sports bodies, I recommend having a panel of people with relevant expertise who do not have any vested interest or conflict of interest with the sport. Athletics Ireland has such a provision within its constitution. I regard this as being also applicable to the board of the Irish Sports Council and perhaps to all State bodies. There should be a panel which would examine the levels of expertise of a board to see if experience was lacking in any way and to examine any issues facing an organisation. Governance is a key issue for the Irish Sports Council and it would be seen to be a positive action if people who are experts on governance were members of that board as this would certainly give reassurance to people that things were moving in the right direction.

The question of how national governing bodies should be represented on the board of the Irish Sports Council is an issue. I agree that different sports should be represented but again, there needs to be care taken that this is not seen to be a conflict of interest. For example, is it appropriate for an employee of a sports body to be a member of the board of the Irish Sports Council? Those are questions which need to be considered. Independence and appropriate experience and levels of expertise on the board, should be examined in general.

I refer to Deputy Kennedy's questions about mediation and the issue of a veto on appointments. The Irish Sports Council does not have a veto on appointments to governing bodies as these are autonomous bodies. They are funded by the taxpayer through the conduit of the Irish Sports Council but unfortunately, there can be a perception that one has to go with the Irish Sports Council person, the person it wants or else the funding might not be forthcoming. I am not saying this is the reality but rather this is the perception. This is why the role of the Irish Sports Council should be as I have outlined previously. There certainly should not be a veto and it is not the case that there is a veto. However, there can be a perception which is not necessarily true or borne out in reality.

Overall, the main issue is to do with relationships and communication and this is what needs to be tackled. We have talked about the Olympic Council of Ireland. This is an area where the Minister with responsibility for sport and the board of the Irish Sports Council have the most crucial role. They need to take leadership on those issues and to communicate the message that these spats between governing bodies and between the Irish Sports Council and governing bodies, are not acceptable. They need to adopt a zero tolerance attitude towards such spats. The problem is that everyone wants a piece of the action in sport and everybody wants to be seen to be part of a big success story and this creates duplication. For example, if Derval O'Rourke wins a medal at the European championships, many people will want to claim the credit for it. This is how the difficulties are created, in that everybody wants a slice of the action. It is important for the Minister and the board of the Irish Sports Council to take more proactive leadership roles in the future.

The Chairman asked about participation. This is an area with significant potential. Terms such as the obesity crisis are bandied about. In my new career this is something which I seem to be studying in quite an amount of detail. I agree that the local sports partnerships are doing some good work in that area. For example, the women's mini-marathon is held every year, it attracts 40,000 participants and is an amazing event. One could argue it is a phenomenon in its own right and that it will be impossible to ever replicate it in any other environment. However, there is something to be learned from such a template. This is an area the Irish Sports Council, in partnership with the governing bodies of sport and many other interested stakeholders, should investigate. It would not be possible, logistically, to have such an event every week but it is an area that needs to be examined. The benefits of such events have not been measured to any great degree. We need to be very proactive and to fund this sector. One of the issues is that everyone wants gold medals in the Olympics and I fully support the funding for the Olympics programme. However, it may be a little less glamorous to support a group of 40 women running around the local GAA pitch. This is just as valuable and perhaps may be even more valuable. This is an area we should not forget when deciding on funding for sport. We have to get the balance right.

I agree with Ms Coghlan and I thank her for her comments. I am aware that more than one Department is involved in dealing with the promotion of physical fitness. I refer to the involvement of the Department of Health and Children and the Departments of Transport and Tourism, Culture and Sport. I agree with Ms Coghlan that this area requires an input or a push from a leadership and organisational level. This agenda needs to be co-ordinated and pushed a bit stronger. I note the women's mini-marathon, the annual marathon and the great work being done in many schools. Perhaps the next Minister with responsibility for sport might take on that agenda and who knows, it may be Deputy O'Mahony.

I thank the Chairman for the offer. I refer to Ms Coghlan's points about the relationship between governing bodies and the Irish Sports Council. I will give an example and ask for her comments. The supreme fine-tuning required for an athlete at Olympic level is very difficult to achieve exactly. We have seen many incidents over the years. We remember the row about the gear being worn by Sonia O'Sullivan. She was confronted in the tunnel on her way to a race. We recall that a high performance director, Gary Keegan, could not get access to the Olympic village. Is there a solution to this problem? After the 2008 Olympic Games, this committee received a report from the Olympic Council of Ireland and another report from the Irish Sports Council. As I understand it, both bodies are funded by the taxpayer. Most of the text of each report was devoted to criticising the other body. Does Ms Coghlan believe the Minister should have a role in such matters? What does she see as a solution to this real issue which needs to be solved?

Ms Mary Coghlan

I realise I did not address that issue when it was raised previously. Fundamentally, this is an question of relationships and communication. I believe it is possible to resolve it. The reality of how the Olympic Games work is that the Olympic Council of Ireland has executive control over certain elements of it but is not included fully in the cycle. Different bodies have different roles at various stages of the four-year Olympic cycle. Trust and a good relationship between the various bodies are fundamentally missing. If that existed, there could be a seamless transition. I do not know the details of the appropriate people. I am not in a position to comment on the specific details of the accreditation of any individual. If these relationships were healthy and functional, that would not raise its head. That is what it comes down to. In such circumstances, nobody would be saying "you cannot have accreditation because I fell out with you ten years ago" or "I do not like you, so I will not give accreditation to somebody who is close to you". Such issues need to be sorted out and left in the past. We need to reach a point at which everybody is on the same page. It is up to the Minister for sport to take the lead in that regard. I do not really see who else could have such a role. It is a question of sitting around a table and deciding whether we are interested in our petty little turf wars or in Olympic athletes who need their coaches, physiotherapists and sport psychologists with them. We need to determine how we can facilitate that. We should talk to the athletes and ask them what they want and need. We need to decide whether that is more of a priority than allowing certain people to abuse their power to refuse accreditation to others. That is the fundamental issue we need to address. We need to sit down and be adults.

I would like to respond to the first point Ms Coghlan made, which related to the independent review of governance standards in the Irish Sports Council and its past performance. Without raking back over the coals, I would like to say I think the review is important because if it were done comprehensively, it would set the tone for everything else and resolve much of what followed Ms Coghlan's first point.

I wish to comment on the role of the Minister. As an Opposition spokesperson, one of the difficulties I encounter is that I am often told the Minister has no responsibility to the Dáil for certain matters. They may be the responsibility of the Irish Sports Council, the Arts Council or some other quango. Such an approach makes the system less transparent and means we cannot access answers very easily. If the Minister had a much greater role in policy determination, that would open up the channels. This problem often arises in a much wider context in the Dáil. It is not specifically confined to this portfolio. It is an important point.

I suggest it would be good if we could find a means of making the Minister more accountable. It would push all the levels of responsibility into place all the way down the line. I think that is broadly what Ms Coghlan is saying. This does not just relate to sport. I can say these things today because I will not be the next Minister for sport. This is a really important role and an important responsibility. Substantial amounts of public money are going into sport and other areas. We are talking about sport. It is extremely important for the relevant Minister, whoever he or she may be, to come to the Dáil to tell us exactly what is going on. He or she should set out exactly how and why these moneys are distributed. Basically, he or she should be accountable for its management and distribution. I do not suggest he or she should have his or her hands in the little till or money box every day to check it out. It is important for us to acknowledge that he or she should be accountable in a broad sense.

There may be merit in what Deputies Upton and O'Mahony are saying. What would happen if we had a Minister who has never played sport and may know nothing about athletics, for example? If Deputy O'Mahony were to become Minister for sport, he would be great. Not only does he participate actively in sport, but he follows all sports. I could call myself an expert on Gaelic games, as could Deputy O'Mahony, Senator Buttimer or Deputy Upton. Where do we draw the line? I would like representatives of the Irish Sports Council to attend a meeting of this committee once a year after it has done its annual audit and accounted for all its moneys. I suggest that this committee's successor should ensure that happens after the next Government is formed. If a great deal of money is spent on legal disputes, for example, questions should be asked about why mediation was not brokered. That would be the logical first step. We have not, at least in my experience, been involved in such a manner. When a problem erupts, we invite people in and hear one side of the story. We hear the other side of the story at a different meeting. Any organisation that receives €15 million, which is a substantial amount of money, albeit much less than what was provided in the past, should have to account for it. That is why I have made my suggestion.

Before I call Senator Buttimer, I would like to echo the comments of Deputies Upton and Kennedy. I am sure Ms Coghlan has been following the proceedings of the joint committee. I do not want to open Ms Coghlan's case or any other case. However, I should mention that I have asked the Irish Sports Council to provide a figure for the overall cost of disputes, which is a broader question. As representatives of Irish taxpayers, we are entitled to get that information in the interests of openness and transparency. I am not asking Ms Coghlan to comment on that. I feel strongly about it. We continue to await the figures in question. I share the views of members of the committee on mediation. We want to try to stop these disputes before they start. Part and parcel of that process is to find out how much money the Irish Sports Council is spending on disputes. Given that the council has spent €400 million since it was established, as members have said, it is important for us to be given such details. We are awaiting this information.

I thank Ms Coghlan for coming to this meeting. It is important to state clearly that sport must be athlete-driven or team-driven, as appropriate. That has to be the primary responsibility of everyone involved in this area. Reports on high performance and implementation, etc., have been produced across the board. There is too much duplication. There is a lack of accountability. Those who are participating in this power struggle must desist from interfering with those who have been given the responsibility of bringing our teams and our athletes to the peak of their performance. Deputy O'Mahony was right to say it is time we had accountability and transparency. I mean no disrespect to anyone when I say the money being spent on litigation and on various sports events should be used to support our athletes and teams. If we do not do so, and we do not adhere to the tailor-made long-term plans that have been drawn up for all our athletes and teams, the money we are investing in sport will be wasted. The Olympic Games in London next year and other events are giving us an opportunity to maximise investment in sport. If we cannot do that, we might as well put up a "for sale" sign regarding sport in this country.

Does Ms Coghlan wish to make some final remarks before I conclude the meeting?

Ms Mary Coghlan

I thank the joint committee again for its interest in this subject. I know the issue of good governance in Irish sport will be a theme for the committee for this year. That is a very positive development. I emphasise again that one moves forward by admitting past mistakes. It is not a case of pointing the finger at anyone. Admitting that one has made mistakes offers the best chance of being better in future. I encourage those who may have taken a particular position to accept, as Senator Buttimer stated, that their role is to serve the interests of athletes and teams. They must forget petty issues and turf wars and ask what is needed to make sport better for participants, from kids in the playground through to those who we hope will win gold medals for Ireland in the Olympic Games next year.

On behalf of my colleagues, I sincerely thank Ms Coghlan for attending today and wish her well in her medical career. I have no doubt she will continue to be involved in sport. People with medical expertise have many opportunities to become involved in sport, as we know from the sidelines. Ms Coghlan has made an outstanding contribution to today's proceedings and has a major contribution to make to sport in future. I thank her again for working with the joint committee within the constraints which apply to all of us. She has been very honourable.

I concur with some of the excellent suggestions that have been made, including that representatives of the Irish Sports Council come before the joint committee on an annual basis. These are matters for future committees to address. I believe this joint committee has played a role in trying to bring some transparency to this area. Like Ms Coghlan, we want good governance in Irish sport.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.35 p.m. until Wednesday, 26 January 2011.
Barr
Roinn