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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 20 Apr 2004

Road Safety: Presentations.

I welcome from the Department of Transport, Mr. John Murphy, Assistant Secretary, road transport sector and chairman of the high level road safety group; Mr. John Weafer, principal officer, road safety and traffic division; Ms Hilary Dalton, assistant principal officer, road safety and traffic division; from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Mr. Brendan Callaghan, principal officer; Michael Kirrane, principal officer and Ms Oonagh McPhillips, assistant principal; from the Garda Síochána, Deputy Commissioner, Fachtna Murphy, operations; chief superintendent, Michael McCarthy, Dublin Metropolitan regional traffic division; chief superintendent, Denis Fitzpatrick, Garda national traffic bureau; and from the National Safety Council, Mr. Pat Costello, chief executive and Mr. Alan Richardson, secretary.

The joint committee last met on this topic on 17 June 2003. I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

While the delegations have statements to read, the joint committee considers it would be more productive if members were to ask questions on the issue. The reason the delegations have been invited to appear before the committee is that on the last occasion on which they were here it appeared the penalty points system was working as there had been a significant drop in the number of people being killed and the number of road accidents. Unfortunately, recently, there has been a sharp increase in the numbers being killed and in the number of serious accidents. That is a worrying trend. Members of the joint committee want to know why that is happening. The delegations are at the coalface dealing with the issue. We want to know why this is happening and what needs to be done to reverse it and get back on track as we were some time ago. Members wish to put a number of questions on the issue. I wish to ask the Department of Transport officials about the privatisation of speed cameras. Is it true that legislation is required and, if so, is it the responsibility of the Department of Transport? When can we expect to see the legislation?

Mr. John Murphy

The privatisation of speed cameras does require some legislative change. The preparation of that legislation is well advanced. We have recently circulated a memorandum for Government with the heads of the Bill which would provide for the privatisation of speed cameras among other things. It will provide also for a range of other measures set out in the forthcoming road safety strategy. We have done a considerable amount of work in conjunction with our colleagues in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Garda Síochána and the Office of the Attorney General to deal with the legal issues arising. We have done also a good deal of the preliminary drafting work so we would be in a position, assuming Government approval is received for the heads of the Bill, to finalise the text quickly. We want to bring the Bill to the Oireachtas in this session. Apart from providing for the privatisation of speed cameras it provides for a number of other urgent issues, in particular a new speed limit structure for metrication, changes to drink driving law and so on.

We will see the Bill before the summer.

Mr. Murphy

Yes.

I wish to focus on two specific issues in the presentations submitted to the joint committee prior to today's meeting. There are huge delays in attaching penalty points to driving licences. I know of one instance where it has taken 51 weeks for penalty points to be attached to a person's licence. I note from the presentation given by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform that the June commencement date has been revised and that a pilot scheme will be initiated from June. When will the computerised system come into operation? What is the reason for the delay? Some 18,000 drivers who hold licences that are not Irish driving licences have got away scot free regarding the attachment of penalty points. Have they also got away scot free in regard to paying the fixed speeding fine? Perhaps we could have figures on that issue?

I wish to put a related question to the Garda Síochána concerning the enforcement of the penalty points system. I note from its presentation that there are 126 gardaí on duty in the country at any one time specifically on road traffic enforcement duties. Is it not the case, given the limited resources available to the Garda specifically for road traffic enforcement, that the Garda is directed to return a quota of tickets each month to ensure a certain number of people are apprehended and that it is not involved in a high visibility process as is the case in the UK? Where they have been in place hidden cameras have not been a success. Regarding the penalty points system, high visibility is the way forward. The Deputy Commissioner might comment on that.

Can the departmental officials say where is the legislation that was promised by the Minister of State, Deputy McDaid, on 17 June for revising and updating the driving test system?

Deputy Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

I will deal with one of the three questions to the Garda Síochána. I realise my paper has been circulated but I want to emphasise a few points in regard to enforcement. The reality is that the Garda Síochána is fully committed to road traffic enforcement and road safety. Currently, 520 people are deployed on a full-time basis to traffic enforcement and traffic management. In addition, every uniformed garda who goes out on the street has an obligation and a duty to also deal with traffic matters as they arise.

The Deputy has raised the issue of a quota in the context of some kind of productivity system. Representing the Commissioner and as Deputy Commissioner I wish to say there is no such quota system in place. It is our duty as members of the Garda Síochána to enforce the law that legislators put on the Statute Book.

In regard to high visibility, we are always striving to maintain high visibility as one of the strategies we deploy in terms of road traffic enforcement and road traffic management. I want to record my concern about the increase in fatalities that is shown in the first two months of this year. I assure this committee that the Garda Síochána is fully committed to this enforcement within the resources we have and which I outlined in my presentation paper. I would be the first to admit that during the earlier part of this year we have had to deploy some of our resources that are exclusively to deal with traffic for the purpose of duties mostly connected with traffic for the European Presidency, which is a very important event for this jurisdiction.

To answer the question I was asked, therefore, there is no quota system. That is not the way we deploy our resources. We deploy our resources in terms of our strategy and targeting areas where high visibility is required and to the best of our ability. We allow our chief superintendents flexibility in that area in terms of the strategies within their divisions that they have to apply.

There may not be a quota but in regard to a garda securing more convictions for speeding, the criticism is often made by the public that the cameras are on motorways where fewer accidents occur compared to secondary roads which experience far more accidents. Another criticism is that one rarely sees a speed camera on a secondary road but they are seen on motorways.

In that regard, what impact has the EU Presidency had in the past number of months on Garda resources? It is stated there are 126 gardaí specifically assigned to this duty at any particular time because of the current Garda structures. How has that been reduced over the past number of months during the EU Presidency?

Deputy Commissioner F. Murphy

Regarding motorways, we do some internal research from time to time in regard to our detections and the figures for 2003 tell us that of the detections in areas where a 30 miles per hour speed limit was enforced, the figure was approximately 41%. These are not definitive figures. They are rough figures which help us in devising our strategies. In the 40 miles per hour zone the figure was 34%. In the 50 miles per hour zone it was 4%. In the 60 miles per hour zone it was 20% and in the 70 miles per hour zone on the motorways it was 1%. That is in regard to the detections for 2003.

In regard to the quota matter, I want to put that to rest. It has long been the motto and the focus of the Garda Síochána to ensure prevention and detection. Our focus is to prevent as much as to detect. If I was to agree with the suggestion that we have a quota system for individuals, I would be saying that we were focusing totally on detection only. That is far from the case. One of our focuses is to try to change behaviour which is consistent with high visibility and with having a prevention as well as a detection policy.

What do you think is the reason for the sudden increase in the number of people killed on the roads?

Deputy Commissioner F. Murphy

I am very concerned about it. I do not have the answer. I do not know if anybody has the full answer but what we are doing is maintaining our policies going forward. There has been a reduction over the period of the last strategy, for instance, and the Garda Síochána is a critical factor in the process. We are concerned about the upward trend. It was down somewhat in March but we have got to maintain our strategies. Our people are working on it and are focused. They have experience in the traffic management and enforcement area, and that is the way we will proceed, but I do not have a complete answer for the Chairman. Perhaps my colleague, Chief Superintendent Denis Fitzpatrick, who is in charge of the policy in this area, would comment also.

Chief Superintendent Denis Fitzpatrick

Since the introduction of penalty points the downward trend in fatalities continued until January and February of this year. It went up for January and February but it is down again in March. These are anomalies over any period that I cannot explain and I do not believe there is any clear explanation for it but in general there is a downward trend in regard to fatalities, collisions, serious injuries and admittance to accident and emergency departments.

What should be evident is a downward trend also in detections. As people change their behaviour the number of people offending should be reduced. Does that help the Chairman in any way?

Can you repeat that?

Chief Superintendent Fitzpatrick

To take speeding, for example, if people moderate the way they drive and slow down their behaviour on the road will change. There will be fewer people offending and the detections for speeding will automatically reduce. That will influence the number of collisions, fatalities and serious injuries because we know from research that inappropriate speed is one of the main contributing factors to collisions. There is a knock-on effect. If we get a change in behaviour it follows that there will be a change in collision rate, injury rate etc.

What about the impact of the EU Presidency on enforcement?

Chief Superintendent Fitzpatrick

I cannot quantify that but some of our resources have been deployed on EU related duty which involves traffic management and escorts.

Does that mean that less than 100 gardaí from the traffic corps are involved at any one time in road traffic enforcement on a day to day basis?

Chief Superintendent Fitzpatrick

The strength of the traffic corps nationwide is 520. Many of the motorcyclists in the Dublin traffic department are engaged in escort duties. That diverts them from enforcement and traffic management around the city. I am not in a position to give the Deputy the actual numbers but I can try to research it to determine what figures we can provide on that.

Deputy Commissioner F. Murphy

I assume, though I may not be correct, that Deputy Naughten got his figures by dividing 520 by four or thereabouts.

With the removal of inspectors.

Deputy Commissioner F. Murphy

That presupposes we work the three relief shift which exists in mainstream policing. We deploy our resources primarily between 8 a.m. and 2 a.m. in terms of traffic management, therefore, it is not a correct figure. However, I am not saying we deploy 520 people at a particular time.

I ask Chief Superintendent McCarthy to address the issue of the Presidency because he is the chief superintendent in charge of the Dublin traffic division. Most of our duty in regard to escorting VIPs during the Presidency relates to Dublin.

At times our complete resources in Dublin Castle are engaged on escort duty. Given our expertise, we are called upon to provide these escorts for VIPs visiting the country or whatever. However, the six divisional traffic units in the DMR would not be called upon to provide escorts. These are available for traffic policing in the DMR, as is the case any day.

Mr. J. Murphy

Deputy Naughten raised a couple of points to which I would like to respond. On the question of how we might assess the figures over the last three months, what Deputy Commissioner Murphy said is correct. One cannot assess the issue in terms of what has happened in the last three months; one must consider it over a period of time. January and February 2003 were part of the four months immediately after the introduction of penalty points when we had exceptionally low fatality figures of approximately 20 each month. If maintained, it would be a world class performance. We did not expect to get that level of response from the public immediately following the introduction of penalty points. We were delighted to get it and I am pleased we did, but we did not expect it could be maintained indefinitely at that level. It is true the figures for March this year are lower than the figures for March last year. The figures for April so far are roughly on a par with what they were for April last year, therefore, it is not easy to draw definitive conclusions. There is no direct correlation between the level of enforcement at a particular time and the number of fatalities. Obviously the implementation of road safety measures over a period affects performance. If we are to sustain a world class performance, we must make progress across a range of measures, including but not just enforcement.

The Deputy asked about legislation relating to the driver testing standards authority. The Bill has been drafted and will be presented to Government shortly, following which it will be introduced in the Oireachtas. We are proceeding with other aspects of the establishment of the authority. We expect to recruit a chief executive very soon and we are having discussions with our staff about aspects of the change to an agency.

The question was raised about delays in attaching penalty points to licences. I will ask my colleague, John Weafer, to deal with the legal aspect of this, namely, periods deliberately put in place under the legislation to facilitate motorists. Where the delays mentioned occur, I am happy it is not attributable to the manual system we put in place. The manual system we put in place on a temporary basis is not perfect. However, I am pleased we put it in place. Once our data processors get the material, they input it quickly into the national vehicle and driver file.

I ask John Weafer to deal with the issue of non-Irish licence holders, attaching penalty points and the relevant charges.

Mr. John Weafer

There are two issues in regard to delays. The Act provides that penalty points can only be endorsed either after one pays the fixed charge or after one is convicted. There is a built-in period of 28 days after notification. The actual operation of penalty points always occurs a minimum of 28 days after one has either paid the fixed charge or is convicted by the courts.

Is it after the cheque has been cleared rather than after it has been paid?

Mr. Weafer

The Act provides that the penalty points will operate from 28 days after the date of notice from the Department. Notification to the Department comes through the Garda Síochána. The Department is dependent on when the gardaí advise it that the person has paid the fixed charge or when the Courts Service advises us that the person has been convicted. The members of the Garda Síochána may wish to comment on the administration of the system from their perspective between the time the person pays the fixed charge and the time the notification comes to our system.

On foreign licences, this is a problem which applies to all penalty points systems. There is no mutual recognition in Europe of penalty points primarily because penalty points do not operate in each member state. There is no legal vehicle that can be used in European terms to allow for mutual recognition. One of the issues we are actively looking at with our colleagues in Northern Ireland and Great Britain is the question of developing systems of mutual recognition of penalty points within these islands. This can be approached in a number of ways. One method would be to pursue a line pursued by the EU in terms of mutual recognition of driving disqualifications under a European Union convention. We could do this on a bilateral basis with the United Kingdom. There is no mutual recognition in the UK between the systems in Northern Ireland and the systems in the rest of Great Britain. This problem is being addressed both on a North-South basis and under the auspices of the British-Irish Council.

Mr. Murphy spoke about the good traffic accident figures during the early part of last year. There is no doubt there was a dramatic change in driver behaviour immediately following the introduction of penalty points. People felt that for once there was a real chance they would be caught if they broke the speed limit and that they would pay a price by way of endorsement of their licence. Is it not the case that the reason that performance was not maintained is that there was not adequate enforcement of the system? Is the economic cost put on road fatalities and serious accidents by Professor Bacon a number of years ago when commissioned to produce a report accepted? If that is the case, surely it makes economic sense to invest in enforcement. Every euro spent on enforcement would be paid back to the Exchequer threefold in terms of savings across a whole range of different services. Has that case not been made to the Department of Finance? Surely it is the point the Department of Transport should be making at the Cabinet table.

I would like to ask about the targets set in the absence of the Minister. What targets have been set for speeding and drink driving detection? We know from a report of the National Safety Council some years ago that our detection rates fall far behind UK rates which, in turn, fall very far behind the standard European rates. What targets have been set for detection in these two specific areas?

What is the current policy in regard to establishing a dedicated traffic corps and what action is proposed on that front? We know from traffic statistics that the people most likely to be involved in fatal accidents are young male drivers. It is fair to assume that many of those hold provisional licences. It is 16 months since the Minister for Transport announced his intention to clamp down on the current practice of holders of provisional licences driving unsupervised for many years without taking a test or even a driving lesson. One sees many drivers who do not look old enough even to have a provisional licence and they are often driving very fast. I welcomed the Minister's announcement in December 2002 because we are the only state in Europe which allows completely inexperienced, untested and untaught drivers to drive legally. No progress has been made on that announcement in the last 16 months, despite the stampede of people rushing to apply for driving tests which Deputy Brennan created. The capacity of the testing system has not been increased. There are now approximately 350,000 provisional drivers on our roads, many of whom may not have driving experience or ability. Some of them are driving HGVs, buses and various types of vehicles. It is an intolerable situation. Is any action proposed in this regard or was the Minister's announcement merely a PR stunt?

In a leaked report covered in today's Irish Independent a Garda source is quoted as saying that only 3% of the target in respect of speeding is being met by the Garda Síochána. What percentage of target detection rates in respect of speeding and drink driving is being met at present?

Can the Deputy Commissioner comment on the remark by a Garda source, quoted in an Irish Independent article, that the force had washed its hands of responsibility for speed cameras? The source was quoted as saying gardaí were incapable of operating the speed cameras and that detection rates would not be brought up to an adequate level until the cameras were privatised. Is that the official view of the Garda and will the Deputy Commissioner comment on that view from an alleged Garda source?

What is the Garda approach to provisional drivers? I appreciate this is difficult in the absence of a clear policy at political level. Driver behaviour has slackened accordingly. What is Garda policy with regard to drivers who hold provisional licences, particularly holders of first and third licences who are not allowed to drive alone? What is the detection rate? In the past year, how many people were prosecuted for driving without a full licence or an experienced driver accompanying them?

Mr. J. Murphy

There is no level of enforcement which will guarantee a specific road safety result. Enforcement is one of a series of factors which must be put in place to change behaviour.

There is an EU standard.

Mr. J. Murphy

No, there is not. There are targets which can be set having regard to the circumstances in which one finds oneself and to the problems which require more enforcement at a particular time. However, they must go hand in hand with building public support for enforcement. In the case of speeding, for example, a very heavy-handed approach to enforcement with high targets will not change driver behaviour. In fact, it runs the risk of seriously alienating many drivers. Quality of enforcement is as important as quantity.

In developing proposals for the private operation of speed cameras, a number of issues must be addressed. A way must be found to free up Garda resources to address other situations, such as drink driving, where direct intervention by a garda is appropriate. The way speed control is managed is related to road safety concerns and builds on the support of motorists. One of the factors in the success of the last road safety strategy was the work done by the National Safety Council in raising public awareness and in building support for significant enforcement measures. We do not want to lose that support by the way we go about enforcement.

The structure of the payment mechanism is also important. We want to learn from other countries, particularly from the United Kingdom where the perception of motorists was that privatising speed cameras was simply a way for the operator to make money. We must avoid that. In countries where the enforcement of speeding has been most successful - I am thinking of the Australian experience - a mix of fixed and mobile cameras has been used and a flexible approach taken. The police authority, in our case the Garda Síochána, must call the shots on the enforcement of speeding regulations. It is not a simple question of an absolute level of enforcement.

Is there a target?

Mr. J. Murphy

The new strategy, which has not been published but has been approved by Government, sets a target for the volume of the vehicle fleet which should pass through a speed camera over a period.

Can Mr. Murphy tell us what that is?

Mr. J. Murphy

I am not in a position to say because the strategy has not been published. I am happy to talk in general terms about the measures we will be pursuing in the strategy. I would rather wait until the strategy has been published before getting into the nitty gritty of it. The purpose is not to achieve so many thousand detections but to have a level of enforcement which will have broad public support and change driver behaviour.

Road users and motorists must respect the speed limits as appropriate. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has been concerned about this aspect of the move to metric speed values. We undertook a substantial review of the structure of speed limits and we have recommended a number of changes. We will be talking to local authorities about how they will be applied. This is another dimension of gaining public support and making a change of behaviour more likely.

Would increasing the number of detections not encourage compliance? In other countries where there has been a large number of detections behaviour has changed and the number of accidents has been reduced.

Mr. J. Murphy

One will not achieve a sustained change in behaviour by enforcement alone. One must marry the right level of enforcement, targeted in the right way, to a range of other measures such as safer vehicles, better trained drivers and a safer road network. There are other issues apart from enforcement.

There is a clear case for increasing the level of enforcement of the drink driving laws. There is no doubt about that. Our current difficulties arise partly from legal issues and partly from resource issues. We also do not measure our level of enforcement very well. We measure the number of people who are breathalysed and subsequently prosecuted. We do not measure the number who have passed through a checkpoint and were at risk of being breathalysed. Because of the way the current law operates a person is likely to be well over the limit before he or she is breathalysed. The road traffic Bill which will be presented shortly will deal with changes in the law on drink driving to allow the Garda wider powers to carry out preliminary roadside testing. In setting up a privately run network of speed cameras, including processing and all that goes with it, it is intended to free Garda resources to devote more attention to that.

Deputy Shortall asked about resources. She made the cost-benefit argument and asked about the extent to which that has been presented. Many countries have thought to address this issue. While one can make the cost-benefit case for investment in this as in many other areas of public expenditure, the costs will be borne by some public bodies while the benefits occur elsewhere in the system. A benefit in public expenditure terms might occur in the health system, for example, while the costs are borne by the Garda Síochána or the Courts Service.

We have approached this issue in a number of ways in recent years. We commissioned independent research during the last strategy and in the context of its review by an independent expert. The expert's conclusions will be incorporated in the forthcoming strategy. We initiated a cross-departmental review of all public expenditure in the area of road safety to identify the links between costs and benefits and where they accrue in the system. There are other ways of addressing the issue of resources other than simply seeking money from the Exchequer. There are ways in which people who are found to drink and drive can contribute to the resulting costs. They can contribute, for example, to the costs of the Medical Bureau of Road Safety, which carries out all of the analysis required. We must ensure we can cover the costs of speeding from the revenues in that area. While we do not wish to turn detection into a revenue generation exercise, we must cover costs to free up resources for other areas. There are ways of addressing these matters in the system and we will pursue them.

The Deputy asked about drivers on provisional licences and the public response to the Minister's announcements in December 2002. A great deal of work has been carried out in the intervening period to establish what balance of measures will best address a range of issues. We have considered young drivers, those who have been on provisional licences for a long time, motorcyclists, the regulation of driving instruction, the provision of basic initial training before the driving test and a range of other measures. We have put together a package of measures, which the Minister is considering. I expect it will be brought to Government and, if legislation is necessary, incorporated in the road traffic Bill or the driver testing and standards Bill, both of which will soon be considered by the Cabinet.

The public reaction to the Minister's announcement was interesting because two things happened around that time. The Minister said, essentially, that he wanted people to have greater respect for their driving licences and that he wanted to see how that could be brought about. I suspect the requirement to carry a driving licence, which was introduced on 1 January 2003, had a greater impact on people. It caused people to think seriously about this document for the first time. Large numbers of people——

What is the rate of detection of non-compliance with the new requirement?

Mr. J. Murphy

The Deputy's question should be directed at our friends in the Garda Síochána. The events of late 2002 sparked a huge increase in the rate of applications for driving tests. Although the rate has decreased once more to the level of recent years, we have been left with a backlog. The fact that I have to manage the driving testing service within the resources available to me places constraints on me that I have to accept.

What will the Department do about inexperienced drivers who are allowed to drive legally?

Mr. J. Murphy

It has been argued that the application to everybody of the same accompaniment rule would greatly facilitate enforcement.

What are you doing about that?

Mr. J. Murphy

I would like to complete what I was saying. One of the interesting things that has come across in the course of our discussions with the insurance industry is that the driver's licence status is not as crucial as the driver's level of experience. Young people who pass their driving tests at the age of 18, 19 or 20 think they are the king of the road. They think they can prove it because they have passed their driving test. There is no body of evidence to suggest that if one is driving on a provisional licence, one is much more likely to have an accident. The important issue is one's level of experience and one's maturity as a driver.

Can I ask the Deputy Commissioner to respond to some questions that were asked by Deputy Shortall?

Deputy Commissioner F. Murphy

I understand that Deputy Shortall wants me to comment on targets, the suggested dedicated traffic corps, drivers with provisional licences and reports in today's newspapers.

Regarding targets, the Garda Síochána was part of the high-level group that was responsible for developing the forthcoming strategy. I have to take my cue from Mr. John Murphy by saying that I cannot discuss particular targets because the strategy has not yet been published. However, the Garda has committed to some ambitious targets. Mr. Murphy has pointed out that we will be unable to achieve the targets under the current structure. We will rely, naturally, on out sourcing, the privatisation of cameras and processing etc. I reiterate that the targets are ambitious and represent a major commitment on the part of the Garda Síochána. More than physical intercepts is involved.

Deputy Shortall also asked about the suggestion that a dedicated traffic corps be established. My paper outlined the number of people deployed in this area within current resources. The committee will appreciate that the establishment of a dedicated traffic corps is a matter for the Government - I will leave it at that.

Would the Deputy Commissioner welcome or support the idea?

Deputy Commissioner F. Murphy

As the person in charge of operations, I will take on board whatever the Government decides in that regard.

I do not know who is the source of the comment, mentioned by Deputy Shortall, that just 3% of speeding targets is being met by the Garda. I can inform the committee that I am not associated with the newspaper article in question. I do not wish to place any credence on the statement in question, other than to say——

It seems like an accurate leak.

Deputy Commissioner F. Murphy

I can tell the Chair that it did not come from the Garda Síochána. I can inform the committee that the Commissioner's official position is that a major commitment has been made. Traffic policing is one of the Garda's six key areas and we are committed to it. I will ask my colleague, Chief Superintendent Fitzpatrick, to deal with the question of provisional licences.

Chief Superintendent Fitzpatrick

Deputy Shortall asked how many prosecutions there have been arising from the rule that drivers on provisional licences should be accompanied. The Garda would be delighted if every driver had a full driving licence. I have some old statistics, but I do not have the up-to-date figures. I can inform the committee that 574 persons were prosecuted under the non-accompanied rule in 2002. Over 400 people were prosecuted for that offence in approximately the first six months of 2003. I can supply up-to-date statistics to the committee. The statistics I have cited are taken from the reply to an old question. Does that help the committee?

Deputy Commissioner F. Murphy

That is as much information as we can give in respect of provisional licences, but I will write to the clerk of the committee to give more up-to-date figures.

Before I call another member of the committee, I would like to ask a question that may be more suitable to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Most of us have read a newspaper report stating that the cost in 2003 of road accidents in this country was €723 million. As Kofi Annan said when he launched the charter recently, does anyone ever make the financial case, of the cost to the Exchequer, to the Department of Finance? I understand the Department of Transport has to protect its figures all the way down the line, but does anyone ever tell the Department of Finance that the knock-on effect of road accidents is approximately €723 million each year?

Mr. J. Murphy

We have addressed the general issue of the costs and benefits. We commissioned a study in 1999 to examine this area. At that time, broadly speaking, the cost of road fatalities to society - it sounds rather clinical to talk about it in that way - was approximately £1 million and the cost of serious injuries was somewhat less, although I cannot remember the exact figure. The insurance industry argues that because of the way in which the claims environment has changed internationally, the cost of somebody being permanently disabled can be many millions of euro. This is a particularly serious issue for motorcyclists, for example. The World Health Organisation report that was published last week examined the global cost of road accidents. Approximately 1.2 million people are killed and up to 50 million people are injured in road accidents throughout the world each year. The cost of such accidents is between 1% and 3% of GDP in each country. It accounts for a higher proportion of GDP in wealthier countries, even though they have a lower rate of fatalities.

The case outlined by the Chairman has been made by the Department. Perhaps I am betraying the fact that I used to work in the Department of Finance when I say that everybody who makes a case for public expenditure will produce a cost benefit study that says one should invest more in pre-school education, health or whatever. That alone will not be decisive. In the context of our organisations, from the point of view of management of Garda resources, road safety is one of a number of priorities the Garda must deal with within a large budget. My understanding of the Government position is that it is a matter for the Garda Commissioner to decide how to deploy resources and he has to deal with public order, terrorism, and other priorities. I have resources I can apply either to the driver testing service, the National Safety Council or the Medical Bureau. When I have needed resources I have not had a difficulty in going to the Minister and saying "I need X". There are constraints, however, in areas where there are Government policies on public sector numbers.

Is it the case that finance for a dedicated traffic corps should be ring-fenced and rolled out? That works in other jurisdictions.

This discussion is timely. From a parochial point of view, Clare has suffered seriously in recent months with road fatalities and Deputy Breen will back me up when I say those involve late night activity, young, inexperienced drivers and alcohol. A cocktail of alcohol, adrenaline and testosterone is involved and from a policy perspective it is incumbent on all of us to find a solution to this. There has been a lot of talk about a traffic corps and management of such a corps but we need to move away from that. We must focus on something different.

Much of this comes back to something the Deputy Commissioner said - all gardaí are tasked with enforcing road traffic legislation. A lot of that comes down to community policing, policing in villages and towns at night. We must look at the life cycle of people in the hours before fatal accidents. Enforcement can be carried out through a greater Garda presence on the streets of villages and towns. I am looking for the views of the gardaí. Maybe they will respond to this.

The availability of gardaí is a real issue but from a policy perspective it is important to set out a strategy which sees focusing of regular Garda resources rather than designating them to detection on the roads mentioned by the chairman. Greater policing in the community during the nights and evenings and particularly at weekends will mean a better chance of apprehending potential drunk drivers at a time before they set out on fatal journeys. It is virtually impossible to have detection points in a myriad of back roads and by-roads, where many of these accidents take place. The gardaí will be very familiar with that and I would welcome comments on this point.

We must have a fundamental change in the way we look at the policies we implement. The penalty points system has worked to a certain extent and has saved lives in many ways, but it has probably achieved as much as it can at this point. We must now target young male drivers who are involved in social activities over the weekend. I would welcome the views of the gardaí on what they intend to do from a policy perspective, though they are doing everything they can in this regard.

Senator Morrissey There is a figure here of 34% of detections for penalty points being made at speeds of under 40 mph. I presume the Department, the National Safety Council and the Garda are buried under statistics and analysis relating to black spots around the country and detailing both the locations and times at which fatalities occur. How many fatalities occur within 40 mph zones?

How many fatalities occur at the 40 mph limit on the Navan Road leaving Blanchardstown, or on the Naas Road at the post office in Ashfield? How many fatalities occur on the Airport Road? Are statistics available on locations where accidents never occur? As Deputy Commissioner Murphy said, these measures need broad public support, but people tell me the resources devoted to the Navan Road are wasted. If resources are scarce then these are not being managed properly. In my experience those limits are highly visible and there is obviously a detection rate, but they are primarily on dual carriageways leaving the city and there have not been many fatalities in those locations.

What is the correlation between the locations of fatalities, the times those fatalities occurred and the locations in which the gardaí are operating? My experience is mostly of the roads in and near Dublin, and the gardaí have lost public support for the penalty points system because of the manner in which the force is operating that system. It is like taking fish out of a barrel. After three months the gardaí can say that a certain number of penalty points have been saved, but that is not what the penalty points system is about. Scarce resources are being mismanaged here.

Deputy Commissioner F. Murphy

I totally reject the allegation that scarce resources are mismanaged. The Senator may recall what I said at the start of the meeting about prevention and detection. Those figures, which are not county point figures, are speeding offences which were detected and lifesaver offences. The focus of our strategy is to determine and identify as far as possible the areas in which we should be doing our duty. I will ask the Chief Superintendent to comment on that further if necessary.

When we stop someone for speeding we are always told we should be out catching drug barons and robbers, but this is one of the key areas of policing we are engaged in. I know a working group is looking at the privatisation of speed cameras and was glad to hear Mr. Murphy speaking about that earlier. The Garda will control the strategy for deployment of those cameras, as distinct from the situation turning into either a commercial venture or the fish in a barrel scenario described by the Senator. That point goes back to the question of quotas, a suggestion I reject. We are not just going out there. There is a prevention and detection side to this, and that also applies to high visibility versus covert operations. If we engage in covert operations we will have more detections——

I did not wish to say a quota is involved. I mean that setting up patrols at the 40 mph limit on dual carriageways is a simplistic way to implement the penalty points system. That is not the best use of resources.

Deputy Commissioner F. Murphy

I do not accept that. People commit offences and breach the traffic legislation in all areas, as the figures show. It is our duty to enforce the legislation. We have to enforce the legislation because there is no point in making legislation and then saying we should not enforce it. Down through the years people have asked us why we are not out catching robbers when they are caught for traffic offences but we have to enforce the legislation. I am not in a position to say how many fatalities have occurred on the Navan Road or any other road.

They must be available.

Deputy Commissioner F. Murphy

They are available.

Just as the detection rate is available, the times of the imposition of penalty points must be available. Can we have those figures and the locations, from secondary roads to motorways? How many of the 40 mph limits are on motorways and dual carriageways? Given the thousands of points amassed by drivers, there must be some trend emerging which shows where those points are being imposed. Is there no system for putting together those figures? Are they being put together?

Chief Superintendent Fitzpatrick

Thetime that a person is detected for speeding is not always available. It is available if done by covert means, by camera. It is not generally available if a garda does what is called a personal intercept, where he stops a driver. It is not necessary that the Garda Síochána collates the timeof that offence. The policy is both of high visibility, where gardaí are seen reinforcing the concept of a deterrent that if one speeds or persists in speeding one will be caught, and covert action. If a driver persists, he will amass penalty points and lose his licence. That is the purpose of high visibility. We also concentrate our activities on collision-prone locations. These are locations in every district where we know the history of that location has resulted in fatalities on several occasions. That is the twin-track approach of high visibility at points of high visibility and at collision-prone locations. In line with that, we also run the intercept by high visibility and by covert action. In Ireland we operate six covert mobile cameras and everything that passes them is recorded and the time is also recorded. We do not collate the information on the time for statistical purposes but I can supply that information to the Senator; it may take a bit of work but it is possible to supply that information if the Senator wishes to have it.

Do you wish to comment, Mr. Callaghan? The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is getting away with murder.

Mr. Brendan Callaghan

The Deputy Commissioner in reference to the privatisation of speed cameras stressed the importance both in itself and to bring the public along with us, to distinguish between setting criteria where the cameras would be located and the actual operation of the cameras by a third party service provider. The criteria would obviously need to be as objective as possible and part of the criteria would be the setting up of cameras, either fixed or mobile, in accident-prone locations. The National Roads Authority would have information for national roads and the local authorities to a certain extent would have information for secondary roads. Part of the work of the working group that is examining this issue will be to see what information is available and to use that information at the stage of setting up criteria.

Why is the Department against a traffic corps?

Mr. Callaghan

We are not against a traffic corps.

The Minister is.

Mr. Callaghan

No, he is not.

The impression is that the Department is against a traffic corps. A traffic corps works in other jurisdictions so I wonder why the Department is not enthusiastically embracing the idea of a traffic corps.

Mr. Callaghan

The Minister for Transport is chairing a group which is looking at this issue. A traffic corps is just a name. As the Deputy Commissioner stated, in one sense we already have a traffic corps because there are 520 gardaí in traffic units throughout the country. There are issues to be considered such as the extent to which civilians should be used and the powers they should be given if they are used. For example, traffic wardens only deal with stationary offences such as not showing a tax disc or parking in the wrong place. Catching people who are speeding or drink driving is dealing with moving offences but if a person does not co-operate one must have the power to stop them or arrest them in the worst-case scenario or take the car from them.

When will the decision be made on whether to have a traffic corps?

Mr. Callaghan

The Minister for Transport is chairing a group on this issue.

He is about to chair a group on this issue. There is a big difference between about to commence something and being in the process of doing something.

Mr. Callaghan

The issue has been discussed between our two Departments for quite some time.

For the past 16 months.

It is only now that the Department is meeting the Minister for Transport to discuss this issue. Perhaps the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform will answer my question which is to find out when a computerised penalty points system, not a private system, will be introduced.

Mr. Michael Kirrane

It is standard practice for a very large IT project to introduce it by way of an initial pilot scheme. To expand on what is meant by a pilot scheme, we are talking about a live operation of a certain number of offences in a particular number of locations. The Garda Síochána is working out the details of that. The system will be live-——

The penalty points system is part of the 1998 strategy and that is six years ago. Why is there no computer system in place yet?

Mr. Kirrane

On previous occasions we have outlined that this is quite a large, complex project——

It was supposed to be up and running by June.

Mr. Kirrane

It takes a significant period of time. The intention is that it will be running in a live pilot by June with implementation immediately or as soon as possible thereafter.

Then the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has misled the House because he said it would be up and running, not on a pilot basis, by June. We were all led to believe from the Minister for Transport and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform that this would be operational by June.

Mr. Kirrane

I believe it will be operational by June.

On a pilot basis.

Mr. Kirrane

On a live pilot basis.

When will we see it up and running?

Mr. Kirrane

That is something that has to be determined in terms of how quickly the pilot operates and any issues that arise being sorted out.

I repeat that the introduction of penalty points which would be computerised is part of the 1998 road safety strategy. When did the Department go about getting a computer system to operate the penalty points scheme?

Mr. Kirrane

The Department commenced its procurement process a number of years ago. When the company which is installing the system was selected, it was agreed with that company that it would take at least an 18 month timeframe to develop it. Both the Garda Síochána and the company recognised at the time that it was an extremely aggressive timescale within which to develop the system. That timescale has been pretty much adhered to and it has been quite difficult to deliver it within it.

What does Mr. Kirrane mean by "pretty much"?

Mr. Kirrane

The system has been substantially developed and is about to go into testing mode. There is the usual progress that takes place regarding IT projects of this scale. Significant progress has been made.

So no one knows when this system will be up and running even though it was committed to in 1998 and specified in the road safety strategy that it was to be up and running by 1 January 2002. We are in the middle of 2004 and we do not know when the system will be operational and fully functional.

Mr. Kirrane

The intention is that as soon as the pilot is completed and any outstanding issues are resolved, the system will be capable of being implemented in full. The number of offences and the extent to which it will be implemented is a matter for the Minister for Transport by means of the introduction of each of the offences by regulation.

Is it correct that it is capable of being introduced but it may not be introduced? It is dependent on the Minister for Transport.

Mr. Kirrane

That is a decision that has yet to be taken.

So the final decision on the computerised penalty points system has yet to be taken.

It will have to go through a normal procedure to make sure it works.

Mr. Kirrane

It has to go through the normal process of testing and implementation.

Unlike Senator Morrissey I will not ask a lot of parochial questions about the roads in Tallaght and I am sure the Garda Síochána representatives will be very happy to hear that. I wish to include the National Safety Council in this debate because I know it has strong views about the fish in the jar policy, if that is what it is. I have heard Mr. Costello speaking on other occasions and making relevant points. I am interested to hear what they and the gardaí have to say about the issue of resources, with which a number of colleagues have dealt, and whether resources should dedicated to this issue. The Department spoke about the pressure on resources. Strong cases have been made by a number of colleagues for dedicated resources. That is an issue at which we should look.

There was a reference to Traffic Watch in the Garda submission. It has not been mentioned today and it is an interesting subject. How is the public interacting with it and what is the attitude to it? Nobody mentioned joy-riding. Although I do not want to mention it, it is very much related to road safety and the issue of Garda resources. Does it continue to be the phenomenon it was?

Mr. Pat Costello

We have a concern, about which there is no question. The increase in fatalities has been alluded to already. It is difficult to draw long-term trends from a short period. In the May Bank Holiday weekend last year, there were 13 fatalities over a five or six day period and yet at the end of the year, fatalities were down by approximately 20%.

On the question of resources and the comments made, the deployment of resources is the responsibility of the Garda Commissioner. It is like a link in a chain. Each of the component areas in regard to a successful road safety strategy incorporate enforcement, engineering and education and, obviously, all of these working together to the best of the abilities and resources. This is what will lead to a successful road safety strategy.

On the question of a dedicated traffic corps, I am fully aware of the comment made in regard to 500 gardaí full-time on road traffic duties. The EU Presidency has probably had an effect in regard to road traffic enforcement. The fatalities are up considerably, by approximately 30%. The cost benefit analysis undertaken by Dr. Peter Bacon for the National Safety Council in 1999 highlighted, as was mentioned earlier, that this is really a benefit cost analysis situation. I referred in my document to the impact of the ministries which expend and invest moneys compared to ministry where the savings are very much more apparent, that is, the Department of Health and Children. We are all aware of the strain on the Department of Health and Children, on the hospital sector, on accident and emergency services and on medics, doctors and consultants.

The investment in road safety renders a return of 8:1 going up to 21:1 over a period as evidenced by the comments made in the Bacon report.

Will you give us those statistics again?

Mr. Costello

The benefit cost analysis that was undertaken on behalf of the National Safety Council by Dr. Peter Bacon in 1999 indicated that over the period of the strategy, 1998-2002, the initial return in regard to the investment was a ratio of 8:1 rising to 21:1 subsequently.

Was that on completion of it?

Mr. Costello

Yes.

Whenever that happens.

Mr. Costello

That would be on completion of the strategy.

Deputy Naughten We will have to wait.

Has there been any measurement of the performance in that regard? If Peter Bacon suggested there would be a benefit of 8:1, has there been a measurement of the performance of the last strategy?

Mr. Costello

No. It is difficult to do that. The ministries which invest moneys are the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Transport whereas the benefits accrue to the Department of Health and Children, from the point of view of accident and emergency medical care, the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Department of Finance.

Has the last strategy been reviewed? If so, will the review be published?

Mr. Costello

There is an indictor that the first strategy will be reviewed as part of the new strategy.

Why do you think it failed? The headline figures were delivered on but the strategy set out specific and detailed targets of which many, including the computerisation of the penalty points system, have failed. Why do you think it has failed?

Mr. Costello

One of the priority targets was the reduction of fatalities to a figure at the year end 2002 of not more than 378. That was one of the major targets. The actual achievement was 376 fatalities. Some of the other areas, from the point of view of targets in regard to speeding and seatbelt wearing, were achieved while some were not. Seatbelt wearing has progressed quite dramatically. In 1999, the wearing rate was 53%. It went up to 72% in 2002. I am optimistic that with the combination of enforcement, penalty points and the media campaigns, it will have gone up more. Again, the real benefits of seatbelt wearing only kick in when it comes into approximately 85% to 90% wearing rates. For the most part, the other targets in the strategy were achieved.

A comment was made earlier on the fatalities in the period 12 a.m. to 4 a.m. to 5 a.m. I refer to the relevance of drink driving to fatalities and crashes during that period. There is also the additional element that driving while intoxicated covers drugs. The National Safety Council considers that drug driving is also becoming a problem which needs to be addressed. The other criteria and targeting as regards the benefit cost analysis were not measured and I hope they will be.

Deputy Commissioner F. Murphy

To pick up on Deputy O'Connor's question, I have dealt with the question of resources. As I pointed out, we have dedicated resources for what one could call a traffic corps, but we call it a traffic division or traffic units. Traffic Watch is a system which provides a telephone line to allow road users to report inappropriate behaviour on roads to the gardaí. The National Roads Authority erected signs displaying the number on national primary roads. It became nationwide on 19 February 2004 and so far we have received in the region of 800 calls. Again, this is an initiative to change behaviour; it is targeted at behavioural change. We are quite happy with it and it is working successfully.

Is joy-riding still the phenomenon we believe it to be? How is the Garda responding to it?

Chief Superintendent Fitzpatrick

The term "joy-riding" is used in the media but the Garda call it dangerous driving or inappropriate speed and it is in that context we deal with it. From what I hear from Garda operations, it is not the major problem it was heretofore. It is still a problem which is being dealt with, especially in urban areas, but it is not at the same level as it was 18 months ago when it was seen as a major problem. It is, however, still a problem and has not gone away. It involves the stealing of cars and the buying of company cars and driving them around. It generally causes fear of crime in areas. It is general lawlessness and it is a public order issue. Sometimes it involves the combination of the abuse of alcohol and drugs. It is not as serious a problem as it was 18 months ago.

The plastic bag levy was successful and the smoking ban appears quite successful. The drink driving operation at Christmas has been quite successful. Some 90% of road accidents are caused by driver error. Driving awareness, education, high visibility and resources have been mentioned. Is there a percentage breakdown of the speed detections on national primary, secondary or regional roads? Do rural Garda stations have the laser speed detection guns or cameras? These could be operated by them rather than by a dedicated traffic corps on regional roads. There are a high number of accidents on regional roads. Although the speed limits are to be changed next year to the metric system, some of the 60 mph speed limits on regional roads are unacceptable. There are many high-risk areas on these roads. Could some of the rural gardaí be tasked with the monitoring of traffic and speed detection?

Chief Superintendent Fitzpatrick

It is the function of every garda to enforce the traffic laws along with all the other laws. There are 406 hand-held laser speed detection devices around the country. Most of these are distributed to non-dedicated traffic units. One will find that there are at least two such devices in each district headquarters station and there are some in the small Garda stations. They are distributed widely around the country. They are not supplied only to the traffic units. In the 26 divisions, there are 40 traffic units. This equipment is spread far wider than the traffic units. Does that help the Deputy?

What about resources? Last night I attended a meeting with my colleague, Senator Dooley, where it was stated that the area concerned does not have Garda motorcycles or cars. Can this equipment be used by gardaí in their own cars or must it be used with official vehicles?

Chief Superintendent Fitzpatrick

The equipment to which I refer is of the hand-held variety for which one does not need a car or motorcycle. They are battery-charged and there is no need for a vehicle close by.

If the chief superintendent is compiling figures, he might get back to us on the Traffic Watch. I would be interested to hear how many of the 800 calls resulted in a prosecution. My feeling is that people telephone a report of someone driving dangerously, but then they get no result from it afterwards. The Garda should intercept the vehicle concerned in such cases. I would like to know the rate of prosecution in the 800 cases of which he spoke.

Parents carrying children on their laps in the front seat of cars is another issue. It is astonishing that this practice is still happening in this day and age. I would be interested to know the detection rate in such cases. I see this practice day in, day out. It is outrageous that it is still happening.

I am delighted that Mr. Pat Costello made reference to the drug-driving epidemic. He was the only person to do so. It is something I mentioned previously. We speak about drink-driving and driving when tired, but we totally ignore the area of drug-driving. In England, they are moving towards the introduction of so-called "drugalysers" and have compiled studies of fatal car crashes. They discovered that 15% of fatal car crashes were related to alcohol but estimated that 25% were related to illegal drugs. If one widens the scope to include amphetamines and anti-depressants, the figure could be far higher. In the Irish aviation industry, which will come before the committee tomorrow, commercial airline pilots are subject to strict controls on sedatives, yet people operating vehicles on roads are not under the same pressure. This is an area which we must look at. We must realise there is a major drug problem, not only in the cities and towns but in rural areas. People are driving vehicles under the influence of drugs, which are impairing their vision, reaction skills, etc. I would be interested in hearing the views of the Deputy Commissioner on that matter.

The following question is for Mr. Costello. I have yet to see any advertising aimed at drug-driving. We have seen advertising targeted at drink-driving, but I have never seen advertising to remind people of the consequences of driving following smoking a joint or taking an ecstasy tablet. Maybe steps could be taken in that regard.

Mr. Murphy or Mr. Weafer might answer the following question which was put to me recently. Is it possible for a person with two driving licences, for example, an Irish driving licence and an English driving licence, to transfer penalty points onto the English licence in order that the Irish licence remains clear? Is there a loophole in the law? If so, will it be rectified?

I asked that members would ask two or three questions.

I have been waiting an hour and a half and some have asked 20 questions. As a final question, motorcycles constitute the major section of fatalities. The Minister admitted in the Seanad that 10% of those killed on motorbikes were not wearing helmets and pillion passengers account for 90% of motorcycle fatalities. He also pointed out that it is illegal for provisional licence holders to carry a pillion passenger. Those are startling statistics. He mentioned raising the minimum age at which one may be granted a provisional licence for a motorcycle from 16. Have any steps been taken in that regard?

Mr. J. Murphy

Senator Dooley asked a general question about our policy on drink-driving and the changes we envisaged, and, in particular, he referred to young drivers. We intend to address the question of the law on drink-driving in the forthcoming road traffic Bill to provide the Garda with wider powers. We see a need in the next road safety strategy to increase the level of enforcement. There is also a connection between enforcement of road traffic law for drink-driving and enforcement of the liquor licensing laws, and the Garda Síochána referred to that in its statement.

There is also a cultural issue. One of the interesting aspects in recent years is there has been a significant shift in attitudes among younger drivers where it is accepted that it is not responsible to drink and drive. I am not sure the same cultural shift has happened in older age groups and that is something we may need to think about. Senator Dooley referred to young drivers' combination of alcohol, adrenaline and testosterone. There is, to some extent, a cultural issue here.

Senator Morrissey asked about the number of accidents on urban roads and the extent to which that was related to enforcement of speeding limits. There are a couple of publications issued by the National Roads Authority every year. One of these is on road accident facts. The most recent report indicates that 28% of accidents occur on urban roads. If 34% of enforcements are in the 30-40 mph zones, the 28% figure is not totally out of line.

I do not have the detail of the exact locations. The NRA does an intensive statistical analysis of the correlation between levels of traffic and numbers of accidents on particular stretches of the national road network and the NRA uses that for engineering solutions, etc. There is much work done in that area. The NRA also carries out annual surveys of speeding. That will be an interesting monitoring element in terms of how successful we are in changing behaviour. We will be carrying out additional surveys in the context of the next strategy and therefore we will know.

Deputies Naughten and Shortall referred to the roll-out of the penalty points system. My colleagues in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform are responsible for, and have dealt with, the computerisation project. It is well known that the Department of Transport, and the Minister in particular, were not happy with the level of progress for whatever reason. I have dealt with large IT projects in other areas and know how they can run into difficulty. Knowing that it would not be perfect but feeling that it was essential to make a start, we decided in the summer of 2002 to go ahead with introducing penalty points from October 2002 on a manual system. I am glad we did that. We have rolled out further offences since then. We rolled out penalty points for insurance and seat-belt offences last year. The Minister indicated he intends to add the offence of careless driving from June of this year. There is a balance to be struck between the number of offences rolled out and whether that impacts on the best computer system possible. However, we want and are anxious to retain the momentum.

Once a fully computerised system is in place, it does not follow that every offence provided for in the original legislation should be included. I am sure the Deputy will recall, from discussions in the House, that when we drew up the Road Traffic Act 2002, we did so on the basis that we would provide for every eventuality but not necessarily that we would commence it for every offence and certainly not at the same time. If one takes into account speeding, seat-belt wearing and some of the other offences to which I referred, one will encounter the bulk of offences we have experienced in recent years. It does not follow that we should not introduce it for other offences but we will have as much of the system in place as we need for the time being.

On the traffic corps, discussions have taken place between ourselves, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Garda Síochána on the arrangements that should be put in place on foot of the commitment in the programme for Government. A number of issues were identified. These are principally related to legal matters and resource issues involving staffing, etc. The legal matters to which I refer revolve around the powers that would be given to people who would not be members of the Garda Síochána, particularly in light of the fact that members of the force are the only people who have the legal power to stop motorists. We have considered the experience in other countries, particularly that of the traffic corps in New York which was not an overnight success and there were several years of difficulties between the city's police force and the civilian element of the traffic corps. However, those difficulties have been resolved in recent years. We have been looking at the balance between a traffic corps that addresses road traffic law enforcement and one which addresses the issues of keeping traffic moving and preventing congestion. Both matters have a great deal to do with making the roads safe for users and not just motorists. The Minister has decided that he wants to take charge of those discussions and has indicated that he is going to do so in the coming weeks.

Deputy O'Connor asked if the strategy was reviewed. The answer is that it was reviewed. We engaged an independent road safety expert, namely, the director of the Netherlands institute. The Netherlands is one of the three countries in Europe with the best records in this area. The result of his review will be incorporated in the strategy. He broadly endorsed the approach we took in the previous strategy and that which we are proposing to take in the new strategy.

Will that review be published?

Mr. J. Murphy

Yes.

Mr. J. Murphy

His findings are incorporated in the——

Yes, but will the actual review be published?

Mr. J. Murphy

It will shortly be made public. It is in the process of being printed.

Reference was made to Traffic Watch. The NRA has been involved, in consultation with the Garda Síochána, in promoting that. There are a number of other initiatives in place which are being run by the private sector. These encourage the appointment of fleet managers, etc., for insurance costs. There is a dimension to that which we should not forget. It is not all about what public bodies do; it is also important that we involve other interested parties, be they companies in the insurance sector, motoring organisations or whatever. We have been doing that at EU level under the EU road safety charter.

Deputy Commissioner F. Murphy

There have been some 800 calls to the Traffic Watch line since the service commenced in February. I do not have the figures for prosecutions but I suspect they are quite low because the initiative is not geared in that direction. We oblige people to give their name and address. However, I suspect the figure for prosecutions is low. There may be many reasons for that

As regards drugs and alcohol in general, as I outlined in my submission we see parallel enforcement, particularly in respect of the licensing laws, as a key strategy in the area of road safety. That also follows into the area of drugs.

Mr. Costello

Unlike the position vis-à-vis alcohol where specific parameters exist in terms of the amount permissible, in the area of drugs one has recreational, social and prescription drugs. There is a mix of drugs that can be used. While there has been some success in Northern Ireland regarding programmes to target those who drive under the influence of drugs, we have not as yet undertaken any campaigns in that area because the technology is not precise. What we do not want to do is encourage rather than discourage the practice.

If it is accepted that drugs play a part in fatalities, surely people should be made aware of the implications of taking them.

People must be aware of that fact.

Mr. Costello

Whereas the position regarding alcohol is extremely precise in terms of the number of millilitres that can be imbibed, etc., the situation in respect of drugs is not as precise in any way, shape or form. Consequently, there are problems in the area of enforcement, particularly if one bears in mind the number and variety of recreational and prescription drugs available. For example, people drive having taken prescription drugs when they should not do so. That is why there have been no campaigns as yet.

I apologise for being late. I had a prior commitment. If I duplicate any questions that may already have been asked, I apologise.

There is an old saying that if one gets a reputation for rising early, one can stay in bed all day. I am firmly of the view that many motorists are of the opinion that they are moving towards the stage when they can stay in bed all day. The significant nationwide improvement in the position on our roads when the penalty points system was introduced is now no more than a memory. There is a perception abroad that the initial flurry of activity on the enforcement side has died down. I have received several representations in recent months. These were not specific in nature but comments have been made on an ongoing basis regarding one issue in respect of which I would be interested to hear the response of the Garda, namely, the appropriateness of certain speed limits on particular parts of roads. People also inquired whether the authorities have any plans for an ongoing review of the position in this regard. I refer in particular to areas where major road works are taking place and where conservative speed limits are introduced when such works commence. These speed limits appear to remain in place long after those carrying out the road works have departed.

Where there are speed limits in place which are not appropriate and regular users lose respect for them, it leads to a diminution in the observance of speed limits in general. There are many major road works taking place at present and I believe this is a significant factor. As in most other areas of the law, the essence of enforcement is self-enforcement and enforcement by the general public rather than by the authorities. For that to happen, it is vital that people respect the law - in this instance, the speed limit. I would be interested in hearing our guests views on that matter.

I wish to raise a slightly parochial matter with the Department of Transport. In the north-eastern part of the country there is perceived to be a particular problem with Northern Ireland drivers and their lack of respect for our road traffic legislation. I am aware there have been ongoing moves towards mutual and reciprocal arrangements with the authorities north of the Border and I will be interested in hearing about the current state of play as regards that issue. I am particularly interested in the reciprocal imposition of penalty points.

It is early days, but I note from the statistics that 13 reports per day are being made to the Traffic Watch line on a nationwide basis. I am interested to hear the delegation's initial views based on those figures in terms of whether they are what they expected, what they feel is the potential of the scheme and, of the 13 reports per day, if there is a significant element of crank calls involved?

My final question is directed to Mr. Costello on the much maligned NCT procedure. Is the National Safety Council satisfied with that procedure as it currently stands and, if not, what modifications would he suggest now that such a procedure is a fact of life for most motorists in the country?

Mr. Weafer

I will first address some of the issues raised by Senator Browne. On the question of people holding two licences, it is illegal under European law to hold two licences. A person who acquires penalty points will have them accorded against his or her Irish licence. It is illegal for people in the European Union to hold two licences. Mention was also made of motorcycles. Motorcyclists are, of course, one of the most vulnerable categories of road users. The figures for 2001 and 2002, in terms of motorcyclists, illustrate a fall-off in the number of road deaths for that category. The trend during recent years has been relatively positive but motorcyclists continue to be vulnerable road users.

Senator Browne also asked about drug-driving. Under the auspices of the British-Irish Council, we attended a seminar in London at which all local authorities in the UK and Ireland were represented. There are significant difficulties regarding drug driving. The perception exists that law in this area is not enforced, but it is. It is an offence in Ireland to drive while under the influence of drugs, and there have been convictions in that regard. The penalties and disqualification system in Ireland in terms of drug driving are far more draconian than those in the United Kingdom. The biggest problem in terms of monitoring drug driving is the absence of a roadside test. There has been much research in this area but nobody has, as yet, established a reliable mechanism for the detection of drugs. It is not a matter of establishing the degree of drugs taken, it is a question of establishing their presence and the degree to which that presence influences a person's driving.

Deputy Glennon raised a number of issues regarding the appropriateness of speed limits. The Minister has commented on this issue on a number of occasions. On at least two occasions in the past 12 months, we have written to local authorities requesting that they review their speed limits in the context of the appropriateness of specific speed limits. This is a subject to which I am sure the Minister will return. He is concerned in the context of the metrification proposals to be proceeded with this year, that there will be the kind of general support about which Deputy Glennon spoke as regards speed limits.

He also raised the specific issue of speed limits in areas where road works are taking place. A recent report of the working group which undertook a review of speed limits examined this issue and the need to address it by way of primary legislation to allow for the application of speed limits over specified periods at road works. That issue will be addressed in the new road traffic Bill to which Mr. Murphy referred.

Deputy Glennon referred to Northern Ireland drivers, an issue with which we dealt earlier. This is a problem both sides of the Border. It is a problem for the Northern Ireland authorities and people from the Republic crossing the Border. We are experiencing a similar problem. We recently held a meeting with the Northern Ireland authorities and I will meet them again tomorrow to discuss this issue further. We are considering various methods which we can pursue. One such method is mutual recognition though there are other alternatives. The issue of mutual recognition between ourselves and Northern Ireland creates a degree of perplexity because there is no mutual recognition within the United Kingdom. It is an issue we will have to address in terms of whether it will be dealt with on a North-South or east-west basis.

Deputy Commissioner F. Murphy

I would like to respond to Deputy Glennon's questions. I agree with his remarks regarding motorists' perception of the system and that if we mention it often enough there is a danger that motorists will hold on to that view. The reality is that since the introduction of the system more than 139,000 people have received penalty points. The detections in that respect were made by the Garda Síochána while enforcing traffic legislation.

I regret I have to defer to my colleagues from the Department of Transport in terms of the appropriateness of speed limits. I accept Deputy Glennon's point regarding the number of calls per day during the past two months and whether any of them may have been crank calls. We piloted this project in the south-eastern region, in Thomastown. We are hopeful it will be helpful in terms of cultural behaviour. It is based on the concept that there is someone out there watching us. I also take on board his remarks regarding speeding and fatalities. We are the people on the ground. One of the keys to success in this area is self-enforcement. We all place our trust in one another, even the driver of the articulated lorry beside one in the next lane, to drive in a straight line. We all have a duty in that regard.

As regards cranks calls, my recollection of the assessment is that there were very few crank calls involved. We oblige people to provide their names and addresses. The reason for the low level of follow-up prosecution is the volume of labour intensive work involved and in deploying to such work gardaí who might be better employed enforcing the law in terms of high visibility. I hope I have addressed the Deputy's questions.

I will repeat my questions and perhaps then I will get a response to them.

Mr. Costello

The National Safety Council welcomes the traffic watch operation which we helped to publicise. It is an ideal opportunity to involve members of the public in their own safety. The operation will act as a deterrent to transgressors and that is a positive benefit. Obviously, the gardaí cannot be at every crossroads, bearing in mind that we have approximately 100,000 kilometres of roads. The public can assist themselves in terms of road safety. That is a positive step.

The second question related to NCT. The National Safety Council is encouraged by the improvement in the standard and maintenance levels of cars on our roads. However, approximately 96% of crashes are due to human behaviour, error or omission. As a consequence, we focus on that area for the most part. Human behaviour is an important aspect in this regard. We encourage road users to take personal responsibility for their actions. In that regard, they must change their attitudes and, more importantly, their behaviour. That is the key to reducing the current carnage on our roads.

I will direct my first question to Mr. Weafer in terms of the difficulties being caused by the lack of a computerised system and, in that regard, the non-availability of a streamlined process. A reply from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, to a parliamentary question stated that a cheque was received by the Garda Síochána on 25 July 2003 yet the penalty points were not attached to the licence until 17 November. That is the reality of this system. That information is currently available on the public record. That is the type of anomaly that exists at the moment because we do not have a computerised system. What is the Department doing to address this problem in the interim? Has the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform indicated when the computerised system will be fully functional? I am sure it has been asked that question by the Department of Transport.

My other question is about the 18,000 drivers who are getting away scot-free without penalty points, whether they are Northern or UK drivers. How many of them have paid their fixed penalties? I know that information was furnished to the Minister of State last week.

The area of provisional licence holders is a mess.

Deputy Glennon took the Chair.

What was the backlog in the area of driving tests before the Minister, Deputy Brennan, made his comments about the crackdown on provisional licence holders? Is it not the case that many provisional licence holders applied for the driving test after the Minister's announcement, although no additional resources were provided to the driver testing agency at that point?

Does the Department believe it is acceptable that the 1,400 people who are found not to be up to standard in driving every week are allowed back on to our roads? Will Mr. Murphy elaborate on the promise made here on 17 June last by the Minister of State, Deputy McDaid, that a single driving instructors' register would be rapidly established? It is now nine months later and nothing has happened in this area, although the legislation allowing it is already there.

I acknowledge that the Garda Síochána is in a difficult situation. It has limited resources which must be spread over a number of areas. It is important to acknowledge that. The public, however, does not see the gardaí as highly visible in collision-prone locations. Because of this, the focus seems to be on prosecution rather than prevention. Will Mr. Fitzpatrick give us an idea of the number of gardaí within the traffic units who are on duty at any time? I said 126 earlier, but this has now been revised to 144, and that is still a limited number. Is that not the day-to-day reality in this area?

Specific targets are being set for detection under the new road safety strategy. In light of the comments of the deputy commissioner, Mr. Murphy, is it not the case that where targets are set the objective is prosecution? These were the comments made earlier when I asked about a quota system. I asked this question because the Minister for Transport is quoting ad nauseam the numbers of people who have been issued with penalty points. It is obvious that attitude exists within the Department of Transport. Due to the fact that there is not a high visibility Garda presence, although there is on some of the safer sections of road, many accidents are now happening on the more dangerous sections of road as motorists put the foot down because the probability of a member of the Garda Síochána being present is lower. That is the sad reality which results from the Garda not having the resources to enforce the legislation as it currently stands. Does Mr. Fitzpatrick agree with this?

Mr. Weafer

The Deputy mentioned the delay on a particular issue. I cannot comment on this issue, which was addressed as a parliamentary question to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Does Mr. Weafer believe that such a delay is acceptable?

Mr. Weafer

No.

This is happening - I have two examples. It is not an isolated incident.

Mr. Weafer

I appreciate that. As I said earlier, the first time I dealt with this issue, I stated that the Department's system is only notified of whether a person has paid a fixed charge subsequent to the making of that payment. We have an arrangement with a private sector organisation which transforms the information into data we can use for addition to the licence file. Delays which occur between the time a person pays and the time we are notified is a matter for the administration of the Garda Síochána.

In this case it was notified to the Department within a month, which was August, but it still took until November for the penalty points to be attached to the licence.

Mr. Weafer

If the Deputy gives me details of the case I will investigate it.

The case is dealt with in Parliamentary Question No. 449 of 17 February.

Mr. Weafer

I will get back to the Deputy to explain why the delay occurred. We are reasonably assured that there are no undue delays between the time we are notified of the payment of a fixed charge and the issue of the notice from Shannon to the individual. However, I will be in touch with the Deputy about that case.

As I said a moment ago, the Department of Transport is only notified if somebody either pays the fixed charge or has been convicted. The 18,000 people with no driver number have either paid the fixed charge or have been convicted. The vast majority of these - more than 17,700 - have paid fixed charges. We would not have heard about them otherwise.

I am talking about the 18,000 people to whose licences penalty points could not be attached because they were outside the jurisdiction. I am talking about drivers from the UK and Northern Ireland. The reports in the media at that time were that the vast majority of those drivers had not paid their fixed fines. Does the Department have the figures to refute that?

Mr. Weafer

As I said, the Department would have no information about these people unless they had paid their fines or been convicted. There are many reasons we may have no licence number, the obvious one being that the person is from outside the jurisdiction. However, if a person, whether from outside the jurisdiction, had not paid the fixed charge we would not have been notified about him. We would have no idea he had even been accused of an offence.

The only data we have is about people who have either paid the fixed charge or been convicted. Of the number of people of whom we have been notified, we did not obtain a licence number for about 18,000. There are various reasons for this, but they certainly paid the fixed charge or were convicted.

What is the timescale suggested by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform within which the fully functional computerised system will be up and running?

Mr. Weafer

The representatives of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform answered that question earlier. They said that a pilot exercise would commence in June. The full roll-out will be dependent on the results of that exercise.

Is it not the case that the Minister, prior to launching the penalty points system, would have phoned his colleague in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and asked him when the computerised system would be fully functional?

Deputy Eoin Ryan took the Chair.

Mr. Weafer

This has been discussed among the two Departments and the Garda for a considerable time. As our colleagues from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform have said, in terms of the development of the IT system, they are aware that issues have had to be addressed. Three IT initiatives have been required, the upgrading of the national driver file on behalf of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the development of the penalty points computer system for the Garda Síochána and the upgrading of the courts system.

The national driver file is complete and available. The other two are under the auspices of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, whose representatives have stated that they expect a live pilot to commence in June and that the full roll-out will be dependent on the results of that. I cannot comment on a system for which the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is responsible. On the deployment of our resources, Chief Superintendent McCarty who runs the traffic division in Dublin city will inform how resources are applied in the greater Dublin area.

Our strategy for the deployment of resources in the DMR focuses on traffic management and enforcement on a daily basis. There is a minimum requirement to have two inspectors, two sergeants and 18 gardaí from the regional traffic division. For the six divisions, there is a minimum of one and six. This gives a total of two inspectors, eight sergeants and 48 gardaí. Those members are deployed on motorcycles and there is also a commitment for two jeeps and two motorcycles to patrol the M50. Our focus is on patrolling the clearways and bus lanes at peak traffic times to ensure priority for public transport.

Is it true that the Garda does not have the resources that are required to provide the high visibility policing to enforce the penalty points system? Is there a limited number of gardaí in traffic units solely dedicated to this element of enforcement?

Deputy Commissioner F. Murphy

While up to 520 people are specifically deployed, every member of the Garda Síochána has an obligation, when on duty, to enforce road traffic legislation. It is not the first time that we have been asked would we like more resources. These resources could be deployed for traffic management and enforcement which every Garda Commissioner would welcome. However, I am realistic enough to know that there is a finite number of resources that can be used. The Garda is in a position to deploy 520 gardaí for traffic management and enforcement. It cannot be put further than that.

The deputy commissioner should be aware that the committee is not pointing the finger at the Garda. Members would like to see more gardaí. The Government too would have welcomed more when it promised the extra 2,000 gardaí desperately needed for traffic duties and enforcing public order.

However, the road safety strategy cannot be implemented properly because of a lack of resources. Extra resources are needed either through cost benefit analysis or political judgment. When the penalty points system was introduced, driver behaviour changed drastically. However, when it was realised that the chances of being caught were slight, people reverted back to their old habits. In an ideal world, people would take responsibility for their actions. However, in reality human nature means people will try to get away with as much as they can. It is a particularly Irish characteristic that if there is no reasonable chance of being caught, people will take the chance. That is why Irish road fatalities have soared again. Members are all agreed that it is a question of resources and only a political decision that can change that.

Recently, a number of cases were struck out in court because the defendants claimed that they had not received the original notice of the penalty points and fines. That has implications for the hundreds of cases in the pipeline. What action has been taken on foot of those cases? Will there be a new arrangement whereby the Garda will send out notices by registered post or will there be a change to the legislation? I am surprised that several weeks have elapsed without a decision being taken or announced publicly. What are the Minister's intentions? When did the Department of Transport discover that penalty points for using a mobile phone while driving could not be added to the system without primary legislation? This only came to public attention a month ago even though the penalty points system was announced six years ago. Has work started on this legislation and when is it expected to be published?

With regard to those speeding cases picked up on camera in which the penalty points system could not be enforced, are figures available for drivers detected without driving licences or using unregistered cars? A considerable number of people drive in unregistered cars. Again, because of the lax attitude taken by the authorities in respect of driving licences, many do not bother to apply for a provisional driving licence. Are there proposals to establish a national register of driving licences and registered cars? This is obviously an area that needs to be tightened up as it is assumed that by being unregistered or unlicensed, one will not be caught by the system.

Mr. J. Murphy

In 2003, there were 40,000 more applications for driving tests than in 2002 due to the introduction of the requirement to carry a driving licence, announced in December 2002. Most of these applications were in the early part of 2002 and increased the backlog of driving test waiting times. The additional resources consist of seven retired driving testers who were engaged last year and who are still working. A bonus scheme, at a lower level than I would have liked, was introduced along the same lines in 2000.

There is still a ten months wait.

Mr. J. Murphy

Yes, there is an issue in terms of the resources that can be applied to deliver driving tests. There is a certain capacity which we are delivering on. However, we are not in a position to increase this.

We have been working with driving instruction interests to develop a standard and system for the regulation of driving instruction. This has taken longer than we would have liked. A standard has been agreed and it is intended to be implemented by the driver testing and standards authority. A number of other options were examined but it was felt this was the best way to proceed. Issues that remain to be resolved include what transitional arrangements are to be put in place for experienced driving instructors. I expect that will be finalised and that we will provide for it in the context of setting up the driver testing standards authority. I would like to make progress on that as quickly as possible.

In response to the Deputy's question on mobile phones legislation, l do not think it is correct to say that it has only come to public attention in the past month that primary legislation is required. Having made regulations under the existing legislation, we got legal advice on this and had the matter considered in great deal by the Office of the Attorney General. My recollection is that the Minister indicated that we had a difficulty with this matter at least 12 months ago. I will check the date and communicate with the committee on that.

In the forthcoming road traffic Bill, we have addressed the changes needed in primary legislation. It is, of course, open to the Garda Síochána under the current legislation to prosecute a person for careless driving if using a mobile phone or where other activity causes him or her not to pay attention while driving. It was considered some time ago that it would be appropriate to legislate specifically for the use of mobile phones by drivers because it is such a common activity. That is what we sought to do when we introduced the regulations, which were subsequently challenged. We sought legal advice. We have been aware for some time that primary legislation is required and have identified what should be included in the forthcoming road traffic Bill.

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Weafer to respond to the Deputy's query on the cases that were struck out. With the volume of cases generated by road traffic law, one is always at the receiving end of decisions and arguments in the courts to which we have to respond. We cannot always respond instantly. In many cases, we have to identify the legal issue and have a case stated from the District Court to the High Court so that we get a definitive ruling from the High Court. If the definitive ruling is such that we need to change the law, we do so as quickly as we can. Frequently, however, when a District Court case is stated to the High Court, we get clarity. It can often be dangerous to change the law in advance of getting that clarity because one could discover that one had created another problem.

Mr. Weafer

As Mr. Murphy has pointed out, it would be possible to address in legislation the issue raised by the Deputy. We are certainly considering whether it will be necessary. In response to the Deputy's question of whether the Garda Síochána may serve a notice by registered post, the gardaÍ may do so if they so wish, and it a matter for the Garda Síochána to decide how it serves the notices. We are considering whether we need to revise the current provision to address that issue.

On the question of being detected of driving without a licence, the number would be included in the 18,000 cases to which Deputy Naughten referred. The 2002 Act provides that if a person commits a penalty point offence and we do not have a record for him or her, we will record that fact and when he or she gets a licence, the penalty points will go on the licence.

Is there a breakdown of that figure?

Mr. Weafer We do not have a breakdown of that figure. It would probably be fair to say that it would be as high a percentage as the number of foreign licences we have. Let me repeat that those detected of driving without a licence have been recorded and the penalty points will be recorded of the licence when he or she obtains it.

An unregistered vehicle, detected on camera, where there is no immediate presence of the Garda Síochána, is a problem for enforcement. That problem has existed for a considerable period and has nothing to do with the penalty points system. The penalty points system is based on the licence records as opposed to the vehicle records. On the question of national registration as opposed to local registration, that is a matter for the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government because the national files are held by the Department and it is also a matter for the Minister for Finance who is responsible for legislation on vehicle registration. In a sense we have the best of both worlds, people may go to local authorities, obtain a licence and renew their motor tax . We have robust national files which cover all the records of applications to local authorities.

What is the proportion of unregistered vehicles?

Mr. Weafer

In terms of penalty points.

Mr. Weafer

We do not have that information because penalty points are based on the licence record. However, if the Garda Síochána detects a person in an unregistered vehicle, it can bring a case against the person for that offence as well as for other offences, such as speeding, and it will then notify the Department, which will record that fact and when the person gets a licence, the penalty points will be added. Penalty points can only be applied to a licence record.

Obviously the message to younger people and those who would be inclined to engage in joyriding is to make sure to drive a car that is not taxed and do not apply for a licence as one will not be picked up for penalty points. Is that not the case? The Department would not hear of those cases. Does the Garda Síochána take action on those people?

Mr. Weafer

What I said is that if a person is caught in an unregistered vehicle, the Garda Síochána can proceed against the person for driving an unregistered vehicle.

Does that happen?

Mr. Weafer

It does happen.

Does anybody pursue the cases of drivers driving unregistered vehicles that are picked up on camera?

Chief Superintendent Fitzpatrick

If the offence is picked up by camera and the registered number of the car is identifiable, where the registered owner is not driving the car at the time, the obligation is on the registered owner to nominate who the driver was and that kicks in a notice to the person who has been nominated. That is the legal process. As I understand it the Deputy is asking about someone who decides not to register or to apply for a licence. eventually he or she will be detected because we have the human element of the Garda Síochána interfacing at some stage, either by stopping at a check point or someone reporting the incident and the Garda investigating it. If the database does not have the information, the camera record will be invalid. There are many cases in the system where the identification cannot be made, because it is a foreign car or the number is obscured in some way and generally those cases are abandoned for the purposes of proceedings for speeding and so on.

We spoke earlier about high visibility and so on. I live in the greater Dublin area, I drive a great deal, both day and night, and I cannot remember the last time I was stopped at a check point anywhere. The odds of being detected in the Dublin area are slim. In regard to the cases that were struck out, will Mr. Callaghan state the view of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on the sending of notices by ordinary post?

Mr. Callaghan

The important thing is to do what is effective. As Mr. Weafer stated, the legislation allows the Garda SÍochána to serve notice by registered post.

Is Mr. Callaghan advising that?

Mr. Callaghan

It is an operational matter as to how the Garda Síochána processes prosecutions.

If cases were struck out because people claimed they did not receive the note, I presume the Department would have a view on what should be done about that and whether the Garda should be instructed to send notices by registered post.

Mr. Callaghan

Discussions are ongoing between the Garda and the Department of Transport to ascertain the legal position. However, how the Garda Síochána enforces the law is an operational matter.

It also has cost implications for which the Department should take responsibility.

Mr. Callaghan

The cost implications would not be very significant in this case. Moreover, sending notices by registered post is not a panacea because people can, for example, refuse to accept registered letters.

Let us hope the discussions are finished before any more cases are struck out.

Mr. Callaghan

All the factors will have to be taken into consideration in resolving the situation, if there is a situation to be resolved in a legal sense.

We eagerly await the new strategy as there will be significant public interest in it. My view is that we must have a traffic corps for which resources must be ring-fenced. The fact that resources can be moved around in regard to such a serious issue is not acceptable. Although the previous strategy has been reasonably effective, if we want to put a more effective strategy in place and take it to a new level, we will have to consider how resources are applied to the problem.

I thank the representatives of the Departments of Transport and Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Garda Síochána and the National Safety Council for attending, and I thank committee members for their questions.

The joint committee adjourned at 5 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 21 April 2004.
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