I welcome Mr. Noel Brett, acting chief executive officer, National Safety Council, and wish him well in his new position of chief executive officer. A presentation has been circulated. I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I propose that we hear a short presentation from Mr. Brett, to be followed by a question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Road Safety: Presentation.
Mr. Noel Brett
I thank members for affording me the opportunity to come before the joint committee to discuss road safety and answer any questions members may wish to put. I have structured my submission in four parts. Part 1 seeks to describe the current position as regards road safety, highlighting key statistical information, illustrating the economic and social arguments for investment in road safety and, in particular, drawing members' attention to the potential return on investment. In the context of this part of the submission, members should note a graph at the top of page 2 which illustrates the numbers of deaths on a monthly average from 1998 to 2005 in the context of increased numbers of vehicles and licence holders.
Part 2 seeks to illustrate Ireland's road safety position relative to acknowledged best practice countries. In part 3, I attempt to explore a number of factors relating to death and injury on our roads, in particular, the personal responsibility and individual behaviour which underlines road safety. In part 4, I attempt to outline the current role of the National Safety Council in highlighting the range of media campaigns, school based projects and collaborative work with partner agencies such as the Garda Síochána, the National Roads Authority and, in particular, local authorities.
I do not propose to read the entire submission in light of the fact that members received the document in advance. However, I would be pleased to answer any questions members may wish to pose.
I note from figures in the submission that pedestrians accounted for approximately 18% of road traffic deaths in 2005. How many of the 71 citizens in question were wearing some form of reflective clothing? I will not feel aggrieved if Mr. Brett does not have the information to hand, as he can provide it at a later date. Pedal cyclists accounted for 11 road traffic deaths, or 2% of the total, in 2005. How many fatal accidents involving cyclists occurred during the day and at night? How many of those killed were wearing reflective clothing? Many drivers find that pedestrians who do not wear protective clothing at night present a danger, particularly in rural areas, and are accidents waiting to happen, although this is not necessarily the case in built-up or well lit areas. As the figure of 18% indicates, pedestrians account for almost one in five road traffic accident fatalities.
The figures show that 43% of road traffic fatalities are drivers but do not provide an age profile of the victims. How many of the victims were found to have alcohol or drugs in their system at the time of the accident? This is technical information which Mr. Brett may not have to hand but I ask him, if possible, to supply it to the joint committee later.
Education has a greater role to play in road safety than any other factor. It is important, for example, to educate people to wear reflective clothing when walking outside at night.
The submission contains a table setting out Ireland's position vis-à-vis the rest of Europe. While we do not fare well, the number of fatalities is close to average when calculated on the basis of road usage. Will Mr. Brett indicate how our position can be improved?
Mr. Brett
On the wearing of reflecting clothing by pedestrians and pedal cyclists, issues clearly arise in terms of the behaviour of individuals using the road as pedestrians or pedal cyclists. I do not have figures to hand on the number of those killed who were wearing appropriate reflective clothing or using appropriate lighting. I would be delighted, however, to furnish the joint committee with the details if I can obtain them and also with information on the time of day or night when the fatalities occurred.
On the number of fatalities and serious injuries in which alcohol and drugs were present in people's systems at the time of the accident, this is a somewhat vexed area. We have statistics and information from three primary sources, the Garda Síochána, autopsy reports and the Medical Bureau of Road Safety. However, the information is not comprehensive and I am unable to provide a precise breakdown. This issue needs to be addressed from the point of view of access to information. Research has produced wide-ranging figures. For example, recent research carried out by a coroner in the north east shows that alcohol was a factor in a much higher proportion of road deaths than the figures produced by the Medical Bureau of Road Safety in the past indicated.
Source data in this area need to be dramatically improved and the current road safety strategy highlights that there is a gap. Rather than using the alcohol or drug level at the time of accident, the strategy uses the findings from accidents that occurred in the hours between 9 p.m. and 3 a.m. as an indicator. I do not have precise figures but the gap in this area is acknowledged.
On Ireland's position vis-à-vis Australia and the European countries listed in the table, unfortunately, we lost 9.3 people per 100,000 population in 2004. The figure rose to slightly more than ten in 2005. Comparative figures are not yet available for all the other countries in the table. To reduce the Irish figure to the level of best practice countries, deaths per 100,000 population would need to decrease to six. This is a significant margin which, when calculated in terms of human lives, adds up to 140 to 150 people per annum who would not die if we followed the example of the best practice countries and achieved similar outcomes.
What is the average number of vehicles per thousand people in best practice countries such as Australia, France and Sweden? I understand that vehicle ownership rates are much higher here than in the countries in question.
Mr. Brett
Again, I do not have the figures to hand but I will attempt to source them and forward them to the joint committee.
As the new chief executive of the National Safety Council, where does Mr. Brett envisage that most progress can be made in preventing road deaths? Will it be achieved through education, enforcement or a combination of various factors? Where does Mr. Brett rank education? We are aware that, along with enforcement, education is the area in which it is most likely that progress can be made.
Mr. Brett
The rationale of the three "Es" — education, enforcement and engineering — outlined in the current road safety strategy must come into play. The National Safety Council's remit is predominantly in education and only when the three factors work to their maximum together and in support of each other will we achieve the desired outcome. Education alone will not deliver the return we need or bring us into line with best practice countries. The success of the best practice countries is due to the interrelationship between education, enforcement and engineering. Reference has also been made to a fourth "E", namely, evaluation. In the Irish context, it is critical for all the agencies involved, whether in education, enforcement or engineering, to engage in more evaluation of what we are doing and of our outcomes.
I want to ensure that the National Safety Council continues to build on the parts of education that have been successful, ensures its actions are evidence based and evaluates its outcomes and impact. I cannot overstate the importance that we do this in collaboration with the Garda Síochána, the National Roads Authority and the other partner agencies. We have aligned our programme of work for 2006 with the Garda traffic corps's national policing plan and we are trying to obtain the added value and the maximum from those interventions. The National Safety Council cannot do this alone. Education does not work alone but must be part of a collaborative approach. As a new officeholder, I think it is important that we should have an evidence base for what we do and that we should constantly evaluate our work. I welcome the recent announcement by the Minister for Transport of the ministerial oversight committee to be made up of five Ministers. That will give me and the National Safety Council an opportunity to ensure that we are held to account and that we achieve more synergy with the other partner agencies.
I welcome Mr. Brett and wish him well in his new post. He has held a number of other posts in recent times in an acting or designate capacity.
My questions refer to the authority and what it will do. The legislation, as it was first published as a driver testing and standards Bill, was enabling in nature and gave little idea of what the body would do when established. We know even less about what the authority is going to do now, although I understand that the legislation to establish the authority will come before the Dáil in an amended form the week after next. On reading the legislation, we were disappointed that while it may succeed in changing the area of road safety — testing, enforcement, etc. — the is a chance that it may not do so. We do not know whether it will succeed because all it does is enable the authority to assume responsibility for many of the Minister's functions. Does Mr. Brett have a clear view of the functions of the authority, its remit and priorities and the level of funding it will require to be effective?
Mr. Brett's predecessor on the National Safety Council, Mr. Eddie Shaw, resigned in despair, citing the failure to get the support required to fulfil the road safety remit and to achieve the objectives of the strategy. He said legislation, administrative structures, funding and political will were absent. Does Mr. Brett have a bottom line? Does he expect 100% backing and would he also resign if he does not get what is required?
Mr. Brett mentioned that driver education alone is not enough and I agree with him in that regard. There has been much discussion about roads and the absence of enforcement but very little about driver training and testing. If we are to change behaviour, there must be a huge emphasis on that. When people come to drive at 17 or 18 years of age, they are impressionable. If they do not receive the education that inculcates the notion that road safety is important and that they have a duty of care to themselves and others, it is difficult to pass it on in later life. Does Mr. Brett see it as part of the authority's remit to establish a system of compulsory education for learner drivers and also ongoing instruction through life so that people will have some method of keeping in touch and updating their skills as road conditions and the rules of the road change? I am primarily concerned about young people first starting to drive.
Mr. Brett
The Deputy raised a number of matters and I will address them in the order in which she referred to them.
On the proposed road safety authority, I am advised by the Department of Transport that the amendments are to come before the committee before the end of the month. My understanding of the road safety authority is that it will be a body corporate, that it will have its own board and chairman and that it will take responsibility for a basket of functions. If we can achieve synergies, this gives the opportunity to obtain the maximum outcome in road safety. It will deal with driver testing and licensing, road safety promotion, vehicle testing and standards, road safety research, certain road haulage functions and driver vocational training, in particular driver instruction.
There is no formal statutory regulation of driving instructors in Ireland, although there are some voluntary schemes. There is formal regulation of driving instructors and schools in most other countries, particularly Northern Ireland and Great Britain. An agreed syllabus is taught and if statutory regulation of driving instructors and schools existed, one could specify the syllabus and include compulsory basic tuition. For example, before motorists, irrespective of age, drove on the roads with their first provisional licence, one could oblige them to undertake a certain number of lessons — perhaps four, five or six — with an approved instructor to cover a core syllabus. That would be an important way of giving everybody who goes on the road a core understanding and a platform on which to build. One of my criticisms of the driver testing system is that inevitably people train to pass the test, not to drive safely for life. We must make that shift in people's minds. It is about putting oneself in a position to drive safely and to protect oneself, those near and dear to one and others. The way drivers are formed and taught is critical and I hope the road safety authority will focus on it. Having interventions downstream from that is too little to late. As with most areas of life, if we give people the right foundation, in the appropriate format, early on, we have the maximum opportunity to gain from it.
On the Road Safety Authority, I do not know the level of funding proposed or what will be required. It will be difficult to provide an answer until the Committee and Report Stage amendments have been dealt with and until the Department is in a position to advise me on its precise nature. It needs to be at least equivalent to what is being spent on these functions in a disparate way. It must be adequately resourced. In my submission I drew the committee's attention to what I might call the return on investment. In the Irish context, it is evident that every €1 spent on road safety gives an €8 return to the economy. It is critical that the Road Safety Authority is funded appropriately. Its funding should also be on the basis of outcomes. It is no good simply pouring money into it unless it is done against measurable outcomes and the agency is held to account for those interventions.
On the reasons Eddie Shaw outlined for his resignation, I was asked whether I had a bottom line. I am taking this role because I am particularly interested in it. I am convinced it is an area in which we can get a return and to which I can personally contribute. I have a bottom line in that context. I intend to give it 110% and unlike many areas of the public service, it is one in which it is ripe to do something different. With the right support, it can be done, which is why I particularly welcome the idea of ministerial oversight involving the five key Ministers. I hope those of us at official level, the executive, will be held to account in that forum. Given the blockages, barriers and the fog that sometimes surrounds some of these issues, I hope the forum will be able to address them. Eddie Shaw referred to that oversight, in particular. It has worked in Australia, where this is precisely how they do it. If I am able to operate in that arena, I am convinced I have a good chance of success. In that context, I have a bottom line: I am not prepared to do this indefinitely if I am not getting support and if we are not achieving the outcomes which I hope we will get.
Those are the three issues raised by the Deputy.
I wish Mr. Brett well in his new post whenever the authority is established.
I welcome Mr. Brett. I am not sure whether this meeting is premature. It is difficult to ask somebody about his or her role as chief executive of a body which has not yet been established and about which we know very little. For that reason, I am curious about Mr. Brett's appointment. I understand he was appointed as chief executive designate in April 2005 to head the Driver Testing and Standards Authority which is now not to be established. The Minister intends to set up a new authority for which we have not yet seen legislation. At what point was Mr. Brett told that the job to which he was appointed was no longer available? At what point did the Minister get the idea to establish the Road Safety Authority? It strikes me that he had no long-term strategy. We have already engaged in a Second Stage debate on the legislation to establish the DTSA. How did Mr. Brett come to take on a different job from the one to which he was originally appointed last April?
What are the plans for the existing staff of the National Safety Council? Will they be subsumed into the new authority and what number of staff is envisaged for the new authority? When will it be operational?
Mr. Brett has provided data for us on road safety. What does he believe will be the priorities for the promised Road Safety Authority and how does he propose to tackle them? I am particularly interested in driver education and the 404,000 drivers on the roads with provisional licences. Will the new authority set a target waiting period for the testing of drivers? The average waiting time is more than 40 weeks and in some areas more than 50 weeks. What target does Mr. Brett believe is reasonable, given that in other countries a learner driver has a driving test within two or three months? What are his views on the phenomenon, uniquely in Europe, of allowing drivers with provisional licences to drive on their own having failed a driving test, given the implications in terms of road accidents? Would it be his ambition to discontinue this practice and bring us into line with the practice followed in other European countries?
I wonder about the issue of data collection. It is not possible to establish the driving status of a person involved in a serious accident. Will Mr. Brett have responsibility for overseeing data collection? He has mentioned the difficulties in respect of the categories of heading used by the Courts Service, the Garda and the National Safety Council when it comes to compiling statistics. Does he intend to introduce new categories?
I ask about the issue of driving while under the influence of drugs which did not feature significantly in Mr. Brett's presentation. Little has been done on the matter to date, either in introducing legislation or encouraging public debate. Does he have proposals in this regard? When did he take over as chief executive designate of the National Safety Council?
The road safety strategy refers to targets and measurable outcomes. I am concerned, however, that little information is available on the operations of the National Safety Council. I recently sought copies of its annual reports and noted that 2001 was the last year for which an annual report had been produced and presented to the Minister, as the council is obliged to do. What is the reason for this delay? When are we likely to see reports for 2002 to 2005, inclusive? It is incredible that they are not yet available. I believe 2002 was the last year for which the council published annual accounts. When will accounts for subsequent years be available?
Mr. Brett
I will try to reply to the questions in the order in which they were asked. I was appointed following a competition organised by the Public Appointments Service to the role of CEO designate of the Driver Testing and Standards Authority. My experience of the process was that the Minister decided to give further functions to the authority. Initially, it was to deal with driver testing, some vehicle standards and driver licensing issues. My understanding is that the Government then took a decision in July to add additional functions relating to road haulage and vehicle standards to broaden the remit of the agency to create one that would have a major focus on road safety, particularly because of the synergies involved. I believe the Government decision was taken on 13 July and I became aware that it was to retitle the agency.
That represented a considerable change to Mr. Brett's job specification. Did negotiations take place or was he told? It appears to have been made up as they went along.
Mr. Brett
From my point of view——
I do not believe we have the right to ask Mr. Brett about his personal negotiations with anybody. It would be very unfair and we could not expect him to answer. He has been given a job and the remit has been widened for him. However, we are not in a position to discuss the negotiations that took place between him and the relevant authorities.
I am not suggesting we negotiate. I am merely asking how it all came about.
The Deputy is asking about a personal matter that does not affect the job he is doing.
He was appointed to do one job and I am asking if negotiations took place to change his job specification.
I do not think Mr. Brett should answer that question. That is all I will say on the matter.
Mr. Brett
From my perspective, I welcome the additional functions because they broaden the focus and allow me to get the necessary traction between those various interventions. They all impact on each other. What happens in driver licensing is critical in road safety promotion in terms of the ultimate outcome. From a personal and an agency perspective, therefore, I welcomed any additional functions. As the agency grows, I would welcome any functions that are conducive to the overall mission about road safety and the reduction of fatalities and injuries. The decision to broaden the agency is a matter for the Minister and one on which I am not in a position to comment.
On the question of the staff at the National Safety Council, there are 11 post holders. Those members of staff will have the right to transfer to the new authority. It is a merger rather than an abolition and they will have the right to transfer to the new authority and take up jobs of the same status and grading. My understanding is that those who do not want to do that will be redeployed in other public service jobs on the same terms.
What is the total number of staff envisaged?
Mr. Brett
There are 11 staff.
I mean for the new authority.
Mr. Brett
My understanding is that the Department of Transport is still in discussion with the Department of Finance but I estimate it will be in the order of 300 or 310. Those are the numbers I would imagine from looking at the types of functions that are to come in.
As to when the authority will be up and running, that will depend on the legislative process, when the legislation is completed and the Minister decides on a vesting day. I hope the timeframe will be towards the latter part of 2006.
The priorities of the road safety authority will be determined when a board is in place. As to my personal priorities or the advice I might give to a board, I am particularly interested in the driver testing area, the driver tuition area, and research and information and outcome measurements. Those are key areas for me in terms of the evidence base.
I was asked in particular what I thought was a reasonable waiting period for driver testing. I see the building block of all road safety as being around driver education and testing. The current situation is not acceptable and is not conducive to best practice in a host of ways. If I had the resources and the ability, I would like to see a target of approximately six weeks. It is reasonable to say to somebody that from the date they apply to do the test, they are guaranteed to be called in six or eight weeks. When the agency is up and running I would like people to be able to go on line and book their test at a centre and a time that suits them. I want the process to be more customer focused. I do not like the position where people are told when to do the test. It should be built around trying to facilitate people.
In an ideal situation I would like to see transition and leaving certificate students taking their theory test and driving test in the school context. I know the curriculum body has decided against that but if there were not the current backlog, that would be the type of area I would like to get into in the new agency. Ultimately, when my board is established it will make the decision on that but my personal view is that it needs to be as short a period of time as possible from the date someone applies for the test to the date that he or she sits.
On the question of provisional drivers driving alone, when I took up the role that was something with which I found it difficult to become reconciled. It is not best practice and is an issue I will want to address. Until there is a serious reduction in the backlog, it is not practical to change the provision because people have to get to work and so on. That is why it is doubly critical from my perspective that the testing backlog is cleared quickly to the right standard because it is not acceptable that people find themselves in that position through no fault of their own. They are ready and prepared for the test but they cannot do it.
I was asked about the identification of drivers and their driving status at the scene of an accident, etc. The national vehicle file and the national driver file, which hold those two sets of records, are held in Shannon and are under the control and management of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.
I understand the road safety authority will be the main agency involved in the collection and presentation of data and will take on the road collision research function and the production of the annual road traffic collision data currently done by the National Roads Authority. I understand that is one of the functions of the new agency. It is critical that this information is of the highest possible quality, is not corrupt, is a good basis for the Garda in their enforcement work and intelligence-led policing and is a good source of data for the National Roads Authority and local authorities in the context of any engineering and remedial works they might want to carry out. These kinds of data and research will dictate where the new agency will spend money on media and education and where we target our work. I hope the road safety authority will be the major player and will set the standard.
There is also a need to interest some of the third level institutions in creating centres of expertise and knowledge in the road safety area, be it in engineering or whatever. I hope the road safety authority will be able to set up a number of partnerships with appropriate third level institutions to drive the research and the evidence base that is needed for all the road safety initiatives.
Everybody has an idea about what should happen in regard to road safety but it is not always grounded in the Irish context or on a good evidence base. We are not always aware what the knock-on effect will be. I would hope that the road safety authority will position itself as a custodian and a generator of much of that quality research and the making available to the public of decent information in accessible formats and that we would be able to do that as a nation.
I take the point that I did not specifically refer to drug driving. That was an oversight on my part because it is an increasingly important issue. Unfortunately, there is not yet an easy roadside or police station based test for the presence of illicit substances or substances in blood, urine or breath. I understand that if the garda on the roadside requests the Medical Bureau to screen a sample, the sample is screened.
Drug driving is an issue not just here but in other countries also. I am aware of a number of pilot studies in some constabulary regions in the UK where they are trying to train officers and look at certain interventions, but as yet there is no easy roadside test. It is an issue we need to reflect on in our educative work and in the focus of the National Safety Council.
Deputy Shortall asked when I took up the post at the National Safety Council. I was appointed acting chief executive officer at the National Safety Council on 23 November 2005 and have been in that role since. The Deputy is correct that there are no annual reviews published for 2003, 2004 and 2005. The review for 2003 is with the printers and on Monday of this week I cleared the drafts for the 2004 and 2005 reviews. I hope to have those presented within three to four weeks. It is unacceptable that they are not available but they will be published as quickly as I can do it.
There are outstanding issues with the Comptroller and Auditor General relating to the 2003 accounts for the National Safety Council. They are not significant issues but they need to be addressed. Fifteen days ago I met with representatives of the Comptroller and Auditor General's office. We have addressed the issues that were causing them concern and I anticipate we will have finalised accounts very shortly. We are hoping to schedule with the Comptroller and Auditor General's office an early date for the 2004 and the 2005 audit. I would like to see that happen by March at the latest in the context of the establishment of the road safety authority later in the year. It is unacceptable that they were not completed and I have endeavoured since my appointment to complete them.
I thank Mr. Brett for coming in today. We wish him well in his current position and his future one. A number of questions I had intended to put have been addressed by Mr. Brett but I want to raise two or three issues.
I was interested in Mr. Brett's comment to the effect that he intends to focus on the wider issue of driver testing and not just the backlog — which is important — and introduce a more holistic approach in this area. In that context, I should like Mr. Brett's views on certain proposals to make electronic driving testing and training available. I understand that driving simulators are being used in the United States which are similar to those on which aircraft pilots develop their skills. In many cases, pilots do not get into an aeroplane until they have undergone a flying simulator programme. Many of them take control of a plane without any difficulty after sustained periods working with simulators. All of the airlines recognise that simulators work.
What role does Mr. Brett foresee in years to come as regards the role of technology in advancing driver training and testing? I should also be interested in his views on the proposed introduction of random breath testing. The committee has been endeavouring to deal with this issue for several months. I should like to think that some of the work done here fed into the wider Government decision to introduce random breath testing in the short to medium term.
My final question relates to the National Roads Authority report, published today, which reveals fairly shocking figures in terms of driver behaviour and speeding on non-national roads. On some regional roads, 63% of motorists — and 83% of articulated vehicles — exceed the speed limit. These are enormous increases on the figures from the previous test a number of years ago.
One of the figures stood and relates to an issue I have been attempting to put on the public agenda in recent months, namely, the question of learners driving on motorways. The figures released today clearly show, if proof were needed, that motorways are the safest roads in the country. Only 15% of vehicles exceed the speed limit on motorways, whereas on dual carriageways it is 28%, on two-lane roads it is 76% and on regional roads it is 63%. Given those figures, it seems illogical that learner and provisional drivers are required by law to leave some of the safest roads in the country, on which speeds are shown to be more in line with the law, and force them onto non-national, secondary and regional highways with which they would not otherwise be familiar and on which others are significantly prone to speeding. They are then requested to go back on to the national routes, having been prohibited from driving along those stretches of motorway.
When the national motorway programme is completed, hopefully by 2010, provisional drivers travelling from Limerick to Dublin will not be able to use the N7. If I were a provisional driver in 2010, I would not be able to drive from my house to Leinster House on the N7. I would be obliged to travel on secondary and regional roads on which, it is clear, people are prone to greater speeding. Does Mr. Brett believe it is time for the National Safety Council — and, when it is incorporated, the National Safety Authority — to give serious consideration to this issue, particularly in the context of the pace at which motorways are being rolled out?
Mr. Brett
I note the Deputy's opening comments on what I referred to earlier and which he describes as an holistic approach to driver testing. He then went on to talk about the role of technology and simulators in particular. Simulators are in place across Europe and a number of countries are examining them. I have spoken to the Driving Standards Agency in the UK, which is currently evaluating two different types of simulator. Those available to date are programmed for left-hand drive vehicles. I am aware that two individual companies are considering importing them into Ireland.
Early reviews of simulators bode well. They allow different types of driving conditions to be simulated — night driving, frost, snow and all types of hazards — in a safe manner. This is an area, namely, the use of technology in the formation and training of drivers, which should be examined in much greater detail. At this point, I do not believe it is a substitute for the practical or theoretical driving test but it has a role in driver formation and training.
For those of us who have had driving licences for some time, it could also have a role in terms of ongoing competency assurance. Whether that may be linked to what insurance companies might incentivise or whether it is something that we, as individuals, might take on board, there are two niche areas where simulators have potential, namely, ongoing competency assurance and formation and training. I have been tracking this area of endeavour in Belgium and the UK in order to monitor the progress being made. I will be meeting representatives from one of the companies involved next week. I was obliged to cancel a meeting scheduled for today with one of the people who has a franchise to import simulators to Ireland on foot of the invitation I received to come before the committee.
In terms of random breath testing, I welcome it from a National Safety Council standpoint. There is nothing else to say. It is important, however, that it should not be seen merely as means for detecting people. It must be visible as a deterrent and must modify personal behaviour in terms of attitudes and taking responsibility. I do not believe it should exist just to catch a great many people. Rather, it should induce people to reflect on their behaviour as drivers and, as necessary, modify this.
There should be an interesting correlation between the increase in detections and changes in the personal behaviour of drivers. In the Irish context, this is an interesting issue. The public appetite in a number of research studies undertaken by the National Safety Council for increased enforcement of random breath testing is very high, yet we see people willingly challenging cases in the courts. Issues may arise based on technicalities and there will be different outcomes. There is something about attitudes and attitudinal behaviour in Ireland towards drink driving about which we should know more. From a National Safety Council and a personal perspective, however, I welcome random breath testing and the sooner it is introduced the better. The National Safety Council will have a major role to play in preparing the way for that in educating the public on what it will involve, etc. That is an example of education working alongside enforcement.
In terms of the NRA report published today, while I have not had the opportunity to read it from cover to cover, I am aware of some of the key issues as addressed by the Deputy. There is a 63% transgression rate on regional and local roads. Clearly, that is a phenomenal increase in terms of the breaking of speed limits. However, it must be borne in mind that the speed limits on many of those roads have actually been reduced under metrification. Nonetheless, the report again makes depressing reading in the context of personal behaviour and people's attitudes and their perceptions regarding the risk they pose to themselves and others.
What particularly caught my attention were the findings relating to trucks and large passenger vehicles. Those findings are of significant concern and the National Safety Council will certainly want to explore them in more detail.
Before coming here today, I had a meeting at the Department of Transport to explore the issue of speed limiters on trucks and large passenger vehicles such as buses. In the light of today's research from the National Roads Authority, we will clearly need to focus more on such issues.
On the question of whether provisional licence holders should be able to use motorways, the context in Ireland is different from that in other countries because we have a different sort of emerging road infrastructure. I am not aware that any other country allows learner drivers to drive on motorways but we have a unique and emerging pattern of road networks here. We will be obliged to find a way of addressing that issue and the National Safety Council will consider it in more detail.
A related issue, which I think Deputy Shortall raised earlier, is the length of time that people are required to wait for driving tests. If people could sit their driving test within an acceptable and reasonable period, that would allow them to go about their daily business unhindered in travelling from A to B. If the test is built on appropriate tuition, it will allow people, in the course of their formation, to focus on motorways, which I suspect may currently be overlooked because they do not feature in the test. I honestly do not have an informed enough view to say whether allowing learner drivers on motorways would be an acceptable practice but I can anticipate scenarios involving certain kinds of supervision under which people might be allowed to do that during the tuition period. I would need to think more about the issue, however, as I do not have enough research at hand to give an opinion.
Does Mr. Brett agree that the proposition is not unreasonable?
Mr. Brett
I will certainly explore it in more detail. Our emerging road network in Ireland is different from that in other countries. The suggestion can perhaps be considered in the context of driver formation and tuition and the driver testing regime but I would certainly want to explore the matter further before making a judgment.
Would it be safer for a learner driver who wants to travel from Limerick to Dublin to drive along the network of regional roads or on the main road? Which does Mr. Brett think would be safer for such a driver?
Mr. Brett
That is an interesting question. As table 3 on page 5 of my submission shows, national roads account for only 6% of our road network, yet 40% of collisions happen on such roads. However, the issue needs to be considered closely, so I cannot answer the question with a simple yes or no. Other aspects of the regime for provisional licence drivers need to be considered, such as the amount of preparation and tuition they receive and the level of supervision to which they are subject. The scenario involving a learner who drives under supervision after receiving detailed tuition from an appropriate instructor is quite different from that of the person who, having obtained a car and a provisional licence, reckons he is invincible and the safest driver in the world. There can be no one size fits all solution but it may be possible to have a graduated system that allows people who have demonstrated a certain level of competency to progress as part of their learning. The present situation is unusual in that new drivers are not allowed to drive on motorways but they are suddenly allowed to do so on the day that they pass their test. We need some way of ensuring that people can make the transition from local roads to the motorway network but that is absent at present. I would like to explore that further.
I join colleagues in welcoming Mr. Brett and in wishing him well in his new role. I also thank him for the information contained in his presentation and for the clarity of his responses so far. I hope he will be equally clear in his response to my questions.
Table 2 on page 4 of Mr. Brett's submission suggests that, for the number of road deaths per 100,000 population, the United Kingdom, Sweden and the Netherlands are clearly ahead of other states. What factor differentiates those three countries from states such as Ireland? Does any factor immediately come to mind? In addition, Victoria appears somewhat out of context in the table because it is the only non-European state mentioned. Was Victoria included for a particular reason?
The statistics are an old bugbear of mine, which I also raised with the Garda Commissioner when he came before us. Would the task of Mr. Brett's organisation be simplified if statistical returns were available on a different basis? For example, the statistics we received a couple of weeks ago were based on Garda divisions, whereas the statistics we regularly receive are based on local authority areas. Of course, Garda divisions and local authority areas rarely — except perhaps in a few instances — match up. A similar issue applies in respect of motor taxation and licensing. For example, the Dublin area has a central office for taxation and a central office for licensing but the area comprises four local authorities and I do not know how many Garda divisions. There is a case to be made for uniformity of statistical returns throughout the system and not just in respect of road transport. I suspect that issue might be of interest to Mr. Brett, so I would be obliged for his views on it.
Mr. Brett stated earlier that the National Safety Council's role is primarily about education. In my view, Ireland needs a seismic shift in road traffic education to bring about a change of culture. We need the kind of culture change that took place in respect of smoking in pubs and drink driving. Although it is unfortunate that attitudes to drink driving have not changed throughout the population, a certain segment of the population — the "twentysomethings" and so on — seems to have a markedly different attitude to drink driving because of the culture change that has emerged over the past few years. What would Mr. Brett like to see done? As head of the body tasked with the role of principal educator of our road users, if Mr. Brett had one wish, what would it be? Leaving aside budgetary restrictions, what does Mr. Brett think would be utopia?
On the issue of continuing driver education, I would be obliged for Mr. Brett's views on the suggestion, which I think it worthy of consideration, that the penalty for specified road traffic offences of a particular gravity should include an obligatory re-examination for driving licence purposes. We already have several offences at the top end of the scale for which, upon conviction, offenders face an obligatory suspension of their driving licences. Unfortunately, as the Judiciary too often dismisses that obligatory suspension, no such penalty comes into play but there would still be a hell of a difference between having one's licence suspended and being required to resit the test. I would be obliged for Mr. Brett's views on that.
Another question that I asked of the Garda Commissioner a couple of weeks ago — it was answered by one of his colleagues — concerns the difference between the Irish legal system and other comparable legal systems that have their roots in the old English system of common law. Why does our attitude to prosecutions under road traffic legislation appear to be totally different from that of other systems? He was very clear about the answer he gave because, when I paraphrased it, he agreed with me. I suggested that in countries with similar legal systems there is a much greater emphasis on the facts of a case and less emphasis on the technical legal processes. What is Mr. Brett's view on that?
Perhaps Mr. Brett would also give his view of the penalty policy in Irish courts at present. Again, there is a view that penalties imposed by the courts are, more often than not, quite lenient. I am also anxious to hear his opinion about technology, namely, simulators and so forth. Does he have a view on gadgetry for cars and particular drivers? He mentioned speed limiters for articulated vehicles or large passenger vehicles. Is there potential for such technology to be included, by order of the courts, as a penalty for offences or is there potential for more widespread use of speed limiters in, for example, the case of drivers with provisional licences? Previously in Northern Ireland, there was a speed limit of 45 mph for provisional licence holders and instead of an L plate they displayed an R plate. What are Mr. Brett's views on this general issue?
Mr. Brett
The Deputy inquired about the best practice countries or the three countries that lead in this area. The evidence I have to hand indicates that they are best practice countries and have reduced their fatality and serious injury rates so low per 100,000 population because of the way they go about their business. My understanding, from my research and from talking to people in those jurisdictions, particularly the UK, is that it is the governance arrangements — the oversight, the interdepartmental and inter-agency work and, in particular, the way they align their enforcement, education and engineering to work in tandem — that generate a maximum return.
What we call joined-up thinking.
Mr. Brett
If those three things — enforcement, education and engineering — are working at optimum level, in the same direction at the right time and doing the right thing, there is a maximum result. Those three countries appear to be doing it that way. Obviously, the position is constantly changing and one must keep adapting the strategies. One can try things that do not work and things that are more successful than others. The ability to be responsive, to change tack and remain ahead of the game and to ensure that all the elements are acting in tandem and that there is appropriate oversight, scrutiny and holding to account for the people working in those three areas is how it works in the best practice countries.
I have included Victoria in Australia for a number of a reasons. The literature illustrates that the state had an horrendous situation but that it has made a fantastic leap forward. It is also a region that is similar to Ireland in demography and road usage. There are attitudes and circumstances there which make it similar to Ireland. The way it went about its business was, again, through oversight and joined-up thinking and, given the leap it has made, it appears to have done something right. Various commentators point to Victoria as a region that has done something different. I included that non-European region by way of contrast.
I agree with the Deputy on statistical returns. Things need to be at least coterminous in terms of being able to compare one thing against the other. It is difficult to make a conclusion from some types of statistics on road safety because one is not, as it were, comparing apples with apples. In response to an earlier question, I referred to the new road safety authority having a key role in information. The information must be appropriate, accessible in a number of formats and available in a way that can be manipulated. We must also have decent IT systems to deliver that and make it accessible to the various audiences.
What works for a statutory agency might not work for somebody who is trying to do something else in the road safety arena. I hope that the RSA, if it manages — as it should — to position itself properly in research and information, will be in the business of producing appropriate and accessible information which people can manipulate and with which they can work. I hope it will be utilisation focused and will not just churn out more numbers. I agree with the Deputy that figures need to be comparable and at least coterminous. They must be available in such a way as to allow one to cut them in different ways and get what one wants from them.
It should also be done longitudinally. Sporadic research is of interest but longitudinal research is what is important. One must be able to track the outcomes, not just measure outputs, to ascertain what the intervention delivered and whether it did what it said it would do. One must be able to track that over time. That is when we will be firing on all engines with regard to road safety intervention.
I will outline the reason for my question. In north County Dublin, the area two miles north of Swords is in the same Garda division as Hackballscross and Castlepollard. These are two very different areas with different problems. The position is anomalous and cannot be of any assistance to people such as Mr. Brett trying to come to grips with a particular problem.
Mr. Brett
I could think about my golden wish for a while. As the principal educator on road safety, I would love to see it taught at age appropriate levels from the start and to see it become a life skill, not something that is bolted on later or something that people turn up to do. It should be done from day one as part of learning to live as an individual citizen and as a road user in whatever guise, be that as a young person walking to school, getting a bus or driving a car. My golden wish would be that road use and road safety education were ingrained from the start, that it would be age appropriate, interactive and not a chalk and talk matter. It should be interesting and lead somewhere as a life skill.
It is not about huge resources either but about pointing resources in the right direction. There are local authority road safety officers, community gardaí and regional activities officers in the National Safety Council and tremendous work is being done by a host of teachers formally in the SPHE area and in various other parts of the curriculum. If that could be marshalled and ingrained from the start as an individual life skill, one could instill attitudes around personal behaviour, responsibility, civics, etc.
One of the depressing things in the NRA survey is seat belt usage relating to young people being brought to school. A total of 50% were not compliant in the small surveys that were conducted. That involves the parents' responsibility to lead by example, to educate and to give people a skill. Those children will be, in a short number of years, drivers and road users. If we are not instilling this at primary school level, it is difficult to bolt it on later. My golden wish would be quality education that is age appropriate, interactive, interesting and a life skill from day one.
It is interesting that Mr. Brett makes the point about parents bringing their children to school and not using seat belts. That is negative education and gives us an idea of the extent of the problem we are dealing with from an educational point of view.
Mr. Brett
I agree. In the road safety debate, it is easy to blame politicians, individuals or organisations. However, there are issues of individual personal responsibility to oneself, to those who are significant to one and to other members of the community. The debate sometimes glosses over that. It is important that we form the right attitudes in the formative years and maintain them throughout life. It is important that our interventions do that. That is why I found the seat belt survey somewhat depressing.
The Deputy asked me about continuing driver education and the concept of people being forced to retake the driving test for certain high tariff offences. It would be a significant deterrent. If the legislation was in place to allow it and if it were Government policy, it would have an impact. For certain high tariff offences, the idea that a person would have to retake the driving test has potential and should be explored in the Irish context. Sentencing is a matter for the Judiciary but this should be an option. As another deterrent, it would impact on people's behaviour.
With regard to the difference in the legal systems in countries that had a basis of English law, I do not have much expertise in the matter. As an observer, the penalties appear to vary but that it is a matter for individual members of the Judiciary. I do not have much expertise or a particular view on this but it is a matter on which I will reflect. I do not have a strong view to put before the joint committee in that regard.
I look forward to Mr. Brett's next visit.
Mr. Brett
In terms of what is been described as gadgetry for drivers, we should have our minds open to all technology, be it speed limiters, engine governors, etc. We should explore and evaluate such technology, taking into account the cost-benefit analysis. All of them should be considered. When Deputy Glennon mentioned gadgetry, I thought he was going to ask about GPS and other systems that distract drivers. I have a view on those. We should exploit emerging and existing technologies with a view to making driving safer.
Deputy Glennon later discussed what I would term "graduated licensing", where people would be restricted to certain speed limits or where governors would be placed on engines or specific engine capacities introduced. Ideas such as this should be explored, for example, linking different size vehicles to a driver's expertise. The issue is not about those driving on provisional licences but rather about inexperienced drivers. It is about the level of experience, along with knowledge and competence in driving, a driver possesses. I would be open to having emerging technologies exploited to the full. Whether it is black box technology, eCall or other concepts, these technologies should be explored and seriously considered. This should not relate only to public policy because there is a role for the insurance sector, parents and other individuals as well. The opportunity is there to ensure that young people will be safe, now and in the future. The technologies could be exploited at a number of different levels.
Like previous speakers, I welcome Mr. Brett and wish him well for the future. Much has already been covered on this issue. Deputy Glennon raised the issue of best practice countries and Mr. Brett spoke about education, enforcement and engineering. Are there specific and effective practices for reducing road fatalities in those countries that are not evident here?
Are there statistics for the number of provisional licence holders involved in fatalities and road traffic accidents in general? Road fatalities in the five years prior to the introduction of penalty points significantly decreased in a period when the numbers of vehicles and licence holders increased significantly. Are there any lessons to be learned from those years? There was a reduction of 82 in the number of people killed on the roads in that period. Were we doing something right in those years that we are not doing now? Is there an explanation for the reduction in fatalities in those years and the increase that occurred following the introduction of penalty points?
Mr. Brett
On best practice countries, they appear to educate well and this is coupled with a decent quality of enforcement. It is the manner in which these go together, along with the right kind of engineering, and the fact that they work in the right direction at the correct time. They have oversight at governmental level. They manage the three factors and ensure they operate at maximum efficiency.
How do these countries enforce their laws differently?
Mr. Brett
The enforcement regime could be different. The resources available in these countries over a sustained period may be different. I would be obliged to obtain some specific data for the Deputy on the question, which I would happily do. My understanding is that these countries have a history of sustained enforcement and resourcing. There is a history of quality educational inputs and the engineering aspect working alongside. I am unable to state whether there is a particular intervention. I wish it were that easy. It is a combination of different factors interacting, the priority they are given and the manner in which governmental oversight occurs. I will look to tease out some of the matters raised by the Deputy from one or two of the countries.
I would like to know because people need to know what countries, where the problem is not as significant, are doing differently.
Mr. Brett
I will undertake to do that. I do not have to hand the data on the number of provisional or learner drivers involved in road traffic accidents or fatalities. I will write to the joint committee and make the information available.
Is it available?
Mr. Brett
I imagine so. It should be available in the national road traffic collisions statistics and I will endeavour to get the information to the joint committee.
Deputy Healy asked about the years preceding the introduction of penalty points, specifically with regard to what worked well and why there were changes. There were increases in the quality of engineering and of the road network. More primary routes emerged. There was an increase in enforcement and it became increasingly unacceptable, from a social perspective, to use alcohol and drive. This was an issue about which people thought and became more aware. There were other issues, such as the type and quality of vehicles and the emergence of the NCT. People complain about the NCT but it ensures that cars are roadworthy. These factors may have contributed to safer roads. Engineering and enforcement both improved.
There has been a phenomenal increase of 48% since 1998 in the number of vehicles on the road. There has been an increase of 21% in the number of licence holders. If no interventions had taken place for the past five or six years, I suspect that the number of people dying on roads annually would be touching 1,000. Much has happened against the context of an increased number of vehicles and licence holders. We can do better and reduce the number of fatalities by 140 or 150.
That is not the way the figures look to me. In the period 1998 to 2002, there was a reduction of 82 in the number of fatalities. This was a period in which there was a significant increase in the number of vehicles and licence holders. Were we doing something different then? We surely have more enforcement now than we had in those years and roads are better engineered now. I do not know if we were doing something right back then that were are not doing now but the figures suggest there is a difference.
Mr. Brett
I can re-examine the matter. There is no factor to which I can point and state that something was done differently. The previous and current road safety strategies were built incrementally. Any of the best practice of which I am aware was built and retained. The matter merits further consideration.
I apologise for not attending the full meeting but I had an urgent appointment elsewhere. I took the trouble to read the document that was circulated, for which I thank the National Safety Council.
When not walking, cycling or driving, I tend to ride a hobby horse and I will do so here. I will ask a question on a couple of the points made by Mr. Brett about the factors that contribute to road fatalities. He said that the behaviour of drivers contributes to 76.9% of road fatalities, the behaviour of pedestrians to 15.3% and road factors to 4.4%. There is a dynamic interrelationship between the behaviour of drivers and road factors and I am of the opinion that the latter are much more important than is assumed in the document. Many Irish road users have little respect for the rules and regulations, particularly speed limits. There is one very good reason for this, which is that those rules do not command or deserve respect because they are chaotic, incoherent and illogical. We have all had the experience of driving on a motorway where, despite the road being continuous, the speed limit changes for arbitrary reasons that have nothing to do with road safety. It changes from 70 km/h at one point to 50 km/h at another and 30 km/h elsewhere. The system is rubbish and erodes the public's respect for and confidence in speed limits.
Road humps in built-up areas are, in some cases, dangerous and inconsistent. There do not seem to be clear guidelines for them and there are no legally enforceable design criteria for them. In the plusher areas of Dublin, one goes over a gently rising little hillock.
Is the Senator referring to the north side or the south side?
I will not get into that argument. It is straightforward to get over the gentle humps but, as the automobile industry has stated, one needs to drive above the speed limit just to get over some of the other humps. There might be a speed limit of 30 km/h but not even a tank could get over a red brick cliff that comprises a vertical drop at that speed. It should be possible either to drive at that speed over such bumps or the limit should be 15 km/h. It is not possible to drive over some of them at 5 km/h without damaging one's car. They are supposed to be designed to deter joyriders but the latter drive for the excitement. If they were to take off in mid-air, they would be thrilled because it would create an additional buzz for them. Let us have consistency and give the public something it can respect.
More seriously, local authorities have a responsibility for the situation. Deputy Cowley will tell the committee that he has been contacted by the family of a wonderful young woman killed in County Mayo——
We cannot expect Mr. Brett to comment on specific cases.
I am using a case to illustrate my point. People have died and if I just spoke in generalities, it could be dismissed. It was determined that the road surface laid by the local authority caused that accident. The appalling bus accident in Navan was also caused by the road surface. We cannot just pillory citizens for their behaviour without demanding decent standards of our central authorities. We need a coherent and consistent set of rules governing the use of the roads, for which people will have more respect.
The penalty points system was raised. The system worked in the beginning because if someone receives a blow, they will behave themselves for a while. The tingle wears off very quickly, however, and we must use the carrot as well as the stick. The carrot should take the form of good behaviour on the part of the central authorities.
Speed governors were suggested for provisional licence holders to prevent them from exceeding, for example, 40 km/h. That would help reduce accidents, although I imagine that, if there were such a restraint, young men taking their girlfriends to a dance in the country would probably borrow their parents' cars, regardless of whether it was legal to do so.
Somebody, I know not who, suggested that insurance companies might consider a reduced insurance premium for young or learner drivers who accept governors that would prevent their cars from exceeding a speed of 40 km/h. One of the problems young drivers face is the cost of insurance.
Mr. Brett spoke effectively about the need for education and teaching the rules of the road in primary education. That is very important but in Germany driving lessons are a mandatory part of the school curriculum at second level. Why not adopt that system here? I used to teach and I am well aware that much of our education is academic. On the north side, when people say "academic" they mean something entirely unrelated to their lived experience as human beings. I would teach youngsters to cook and sew buttons as well as to drive.
This morning Senator Finucane raised the bad behaviour of Northern Irish-registered drivers in Border areas who know they cannot be caught under the points system. Why does a Government led by the soldiers of destiny, committed to the reunification of the island, not unify the points system and put some manners on our brethren from the North?
I hope the Senator's electorate does not hear what he is saying.
I do not care. I have spent a lifetime provoking and alienating my electorate but it appears to be made up of masochists.
I was astonished to read in the newspaper that wing mirrors are to be made mandatory for articulated trucks. Were they not already mandatory? Is the fact that there has been no such requirement the reason that many cyclists and pedestrians have been killed? As people who have an interest in standards, we must get these things right. We cannot expect good standards of behaviour unless good standards of governance are set.
On a point raised by the Senator, the Garda Commissioner told us that he hoped in the near future to be in a position to ensure that the penalty points system would apply North and South. There has been talk of a European points system under which points in one country would automatically transfer to wherever a licence is registered. Everybody will support this.
I live close to the Border and I understand the points made about the way some vehicles registered in the North are driven, which is without any care or consideration.
Mr. Brett
In my submission, I tried to say that the behaviour of individuals and road users contributes to accidents to a large extent. I acknowledge that road factors are an issue.
I was making the point that there is a relationship between behaviour and road factors. They are not isolated factors.
Mr. Brett
I take and agree with the Senator's point. Speed limits are predominantly set by local authorities and are not within my remit.
They should be.
Mr. Brett
The design of road humps or traffic calming measures are matters for local authorities and the NRA. I do not envisage a situation where the National Safety Council will have a remit in respect of them.
Is it not absurd that there is no central authority? Chaos ensues from leaving the matter in the hands of a variety of local groups.
Mr. Brett
I accept the Senator's points on those factors and how they interrelate with people's behaviour or respect for regulations. However, the issue would best be addressed by the NRA because it is not an area in which I have expertise.
The Senator referred to the use of governors for provisional licence holders and, in particular, the role that insurance companies might play, an issue discussed earlier with Deputy Glennon. We should exploit every technology in the interests of safety for road users and insurance companies are playing an increasing role by trying to reward good behaviour and those kinds of interventions. The Chairman alluded to the fact that the North-South Ministerial Council is working on a convention on mutual recognition of points and disqualifications and I hope to hear more on that matter.
The Senator also referred to recent media articles about mirrors on large trucks, which are at present obligatory. However, research indicates that blind spots can be substantially reduced by the installation of an extra mirror, called a cyclops or convex mirror. Such mirrors are mandatory on all new trucks but there is no obligation at present to retrofit them. The National Safety Council, working with the Irish Road Haulage Association and the Department of Transport, has written to every haulage company in the country to urge them to retrofit the mirrors and many have done so.
Would it not be better to make them mandatory because the companies which have new trucks or have already retrofitted them are the ones from which better behaviour could be expected? Coercion is needed with regard to the small percentage of companies that are not bothered going through the expense of fitting them and I would be in favour of the stick in such instances.
Mr. Brett
I agree with the Senator.
I thank the Chairman for allowing me to ask questions. It was a pleasure to listen to Mr. Brett's clear presentation and I wish him well in his work.
Senator Norris may be able to help me on the subject of the glimmer man and the fact that, although one might get caught, the shine wears off after a while. The glimmer man used to go around to advise people that it was dangerous to use the last of the gas.
In the war.
It subsequently transpired — I stand open to correction on this by the Senator — that such a person never existed because it was enough that people believed in the threat. However, as with penalty points, which caused individuals to behave when they were first introduced, perhaps people only believed in the glimmer man for a time. I concur with Mr. Brett's point that enforcement is important.
It is ridiculous that, on roads such as the new PPP road to County Mayo, speed limits can change on the same dual carriageway. What should people do in such situations?
As Senator Norris predicted, I have much to say about road conditions. While these have been reported to be responsible for 4.4% of fatal accidents, I believe the proportion to be much higher. In three cases I have encountered — involving Sinéad McDaid, Aisling Gallagher and the Kentstown bus accident — road conditions played a major part. Much is lacking with regard to the process of bringing these facts to light. The father of Aisling Gallagher was a roads expert ——
We are all aware of the facts of the case but we should accept that it is not within Mr. Brett's remit to deal with individual cases.
I thank the Chairman for pointing that out. I merely want to make the point that road conditions are a significant factor and that consideration should be given to the area of accident investigation. When a fatal accident occurs, a looseness seems to follow in whether the Garda or the HSA conducts the investigation. By way of illustration, difficulties arose in the cases to which I refer in determining what exactly had happened. These investigations remain ongoing. Does Mr. Brett agree that clearer protocols should be in place and that we need to know more?
We often discuss public responsibility but who polices local authorities? I have found that neither the NRA nor the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government wants to police the authorities performance on such matters. When I raised issues of roads conditions, I received a great number of letters from people, along with photographs of inadequate or inappropriate signage which could clearly lead to dangerous situations. As Senator Norris noted, in the case of one accident, loose chippings were scattered on a hump in the road. If there is inadequate signage in such situations, drivers are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. This is an important issue and I would be glad to hear Mr. Brett's opinion on it.
Mr. Brett
I am not technically competent to comment on engineering issues, nor, as the Chairman noted, am I in a position to comment on any individual case. When a fatal accident occurs, a number of agencies have roles in investigating it, whether in terms of engineering or the Garda. Unfortunately, I am unable to help the Deputy further on the matter.
We might bring it to people's attention that weather is a significant factor in road conditions. Many people are not aware that, when a car's monitor might indicate 3 degrees Celsius, the outside temperature can actually be below freezing point in a sheltered area. Another issue is that even though one side of the road may be fine early in the morning, the other side can resemble a skating rink. Worst of all is that people do not realise how slippery roads can become when a slight shower of rain falls after dry periods. People do not take sufficient account of road conditions when they start to drive and need to be educated on these issues. I concur with Deputy Cowley's point that road surfaces can be very dangerous if they are badly finished or improperly signposted. Any defect in a vehicle only adds to that danger.
I thank Mr. Brett for his presentation and look forward to seeing him again when he gets his feet properly under his desk.
The joint committee adjourned at 4.30 p.m. sine die.