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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 Sep 2008

Fuel Costs: Discussion with Minister of State.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The next item is a discussion with the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Noel Ahern, regarding the impact of the increase in fuel charges on the transport sector. I welcome the Minister of State and his officials, Mr. Andrew Cullen, assistant secretary, and Mr. Ronnie Devlin, assistant principal. I propose that we hear a short presentation which will be followed by a short question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank the Vice Chairman. I welcome the opportunity to appear before the committee to discuss this very important topic, namely, the impact of rising fuel prices on the transport sector. I am pleased to note that since the committee's invitation on 25 July to the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, who unfortunately cannot be here today, fuel costs, while remaining high, have moderated considerably. This is an area in which we are not alone. I am afraid that we, in common with all other economies in the world, will have to adjust to the reality that high fuel costs are here to stay.

There have been substantial increases in fuel prices since the beginning of the year. Petrol has risen by approximately 12% and diesel by 21%. These increases, which are outside the Government's control, have been driven by a number of international factors, including geopolitical uncertainty, supply disruptions, strong economic growth in China, exchange rate volatility, market speculation and production and refining costs.

Fortunately, the price of crude oil in international markets has eased in recent weeks with crude now trading at a price between $100 and $110 per barrel as opposed to its highest level of $147 per barrel in early July. Production levels are also fluctuating. Nevertheless, the uncertainty in the price of oil is affecting our economy, eroding competitiveness and the potential for growth. It makes the business planning process difficult for manufacturers and producers of goods and services. It is important, therefore, that suppliers and retailers move quickly to pass on such reductions in the price at the pumps. The quicker the lower costs feed through to the ultimate consumer, the better it is for our national competitiveness and Ireland's market position.

While the cost of fuel is a significant determinant of the cost of transport for the marine, aviation, road haulage and public transport sectors, a further complicating factor in the price of fuel in the transport sector is the loss of fuel duty rebate for bus operators from 1 November next. Arising from the energy tax directive and pursuant to a request from the European Commission, it has been necessary to end specific fuel excise reliefs, including those applicable to public transport. This currently stands at around 30 cent per litre. The Finance Act 2008 provides for the removal of these excise duty reliefs with effect from 1 November 2008. In the face of rising oil prices we can expect to see the price of transport services, especially in the bus sector, continue to rise over the coming months arising from the loss of the fuel duty rebate.

While EU law requires transport markets to operate on a commercial basis, there is recognition that some aspects of the public transport market require subvention under the rules on public service obligations, and the Government has taken the first steps in this regard. The Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008 gives the Dublin Transport Authority, DTA, the power to procure public passenger transport services from private operators as well as from Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann on a contract basis involving payment of a subvention for loss-making services. The Act establishes for the first time in Irish law a comprehensive statutory framework involving public service obligations for private operators and which is in line with EU law. The necessary measures to prepare contracts to implement this new framework have commenced and this work will be assumed by the DTA when it is established. The target date for establishment of the authority is 1 January 2009.

As regards outside the greater Dublin area, the forthcoming public transport regulation Bill will include provisions relating to the provision of services by private operators in the subvented bus market outside the greater Dublin area that are consistent with the EU PSO regulation. At present the CIE bus companies are the only ones mandated under statute to provide a network of socially and economically viable services but, as I mentioned earlier, this position changes with the DTA Act.

In the case of the road haulage industry, my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, has set up a task force comprising the Garda Síochána, the Revenue Commissioners, Customs and Excise, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Finance to assist the Irish Road Haulage Association in addressing its concerns in a number of areas such as enforcement, illegal haulage and consignors engaging illegal haulage. Good progress is being made. It is vital to our economy that we have a vibrant and professional haulage industry.

On aviation, sustained high fuel prices are also having a negative impact on airlines. Fuel accounts for a high proportion of total costs in the airline industry compared with other transport modes. Fuel now accounts for more than 26% of total costs at Aer Lingus and almost 50% at Ryanair.

Aer Lingus suffered an operating loss of more than €22 million in the first six months of this year. This loss was driven by fuel costs, which have increased by €56 million — almost 30% — at the airline. Management at the airline is undertaking a root-and-branch review of its entire cost base.

Ryanair is also feeling the effect of increased fuel costs which have contributed to the airline suffering a fall of 85% in profits in the first quarter of its current financial year. Ryanair's profits are down €21 million from €118 million. In the wider air travel trade-tour operator industry, three Irish companies have recently gone out of business and Futura Ireland, a charter airline, has also folded.

With regard to the marine sector, fuel can account for as much as 30% of the variable daily operating costs of some ship owners and operators. The spot price of a tonne of bunker fuel has risen by 105% between June 2007 and June 2008 and by more than 400% since 2000. The surge in oil prices has continually forced owners operating in all modes of the sector to seek additional methods and means to maximise their efficiency and minimise their exposure to the potentially crippling cost on their day to day operations. Simply passing the cost back to the customer is generally accepted by the industry as not the answer. There is an elasticity and competitive resistance to constant price changes which forces owners to use other means to rationalise their operations.

Some feeder and short sea operators have reduced the speed of their vessels to reduce fuel costs. For some vessels slowing steaming by five knots is equivalent to a 30% saving in fuel costs. Other operators have reduced the frequency of their services or have replaced two smaller vessels with one larger ship to minimise operational costs.

There have been calls for artificial supports to mitigate the effect of high fuel costs. However, such measures would not be in the interests of either the consumer or the transport sector and would only serve to postpone and make more difficult the choices we will all have to make in terms of how we use and develop our transport systems in the future.

In so far as calls for reduced taxes at EU level are concerned, given the impact high oil prices can have on growth rates, ECOFIN considered the issue of an appropriate policy response to the price increases at its meeting on 3 June 2008. It confirmed the agreement reached in Manchester in 2005 that distortional fiscal and other policy interventions that prevent the necessary adjustments by economic agents should be avoided. The Department of Finance position is that this continues to be the appropriate policy response. Reducing taxes on fuels would send the wrong signal to consumers and to oil producers. We must therefore be careful not to exacerbate an already difficult situation. The high price of fuel illustrates the need for energy efficiency and alternative fuel sources.

All in all the rise in fuel prices requires us all to look at how we use what is a finite fuel source which has implications for the climate and to adjust our lifestyles to use fuel more efficiently and develop alternative fuel sources. The price of private and public transport must increase but the challenge is to use our transport options more efficiently with the emphasis on increased use of public transport. Ireland is not unique in this regard.

I look forward to a productive and positive discussion on this issue.

I find the Minister of State's presentation poor in terms of quality and quantity. The junior certificate examination results are out today. If that is the best the Minister of State can do, he is heading for "no grade" in many subjects. He appears to accept there is nothing he as a Minister or the Government can do to address the issue of rising oil prices, consumption of fuel or Government policy in this regard. I find the Minister of State's final sentence — "The price of private and public transport must increase, but the challenge is to use our transport options more efficiently ... " — the most damning. I remind him that the Department provides a massive subvention for public transport operators, particularly Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus and Iarnród Éireann. However, his presentation did not make any analysis of how these bodies will be made more accountable for the funds they receive or their efficiency in burning fuel. They burn taxpayer's money.

I put it to the Minister of State that Dublin Bus, in particular, refuses to be transparent and open about the cost of the services it provides under the PSO. The Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, told me before the summer recess that he would provide the committee with a full list of all its PSO runs, but they remain a State secret. In controlling public transport prices in the current economic climate the Government should be doing a lot more than it is to make conglomerates such as Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann and Iarnród Éireann more accountable for how efficiently they spend their money. The next time the Minister of State comes before the committee he should have the information promised by the Minister at our previous meeting. He must be able to inform us where and how the money is being spent. He must also answer the question with regard to competition in the transport industry. There is no competition for Dublin Bus, which is a law unto itself. It seems inevitable that there will be price rices, but they will not lead to increased numbers of private operators in Dublin. This is a critical issue.

Iarnród Éireann is ripping off customers in car park charges. Car parking was always free, but customers are now being ripped off. We should have accountability and price control in this area, which the committee will seek. However, I heard no mention of consumers in the Minister of State's speech or of reducing costs for them, whether commuters, businesses or occasional users.

In the context of ever increasing prices, has the Department considered conducting a survey of fuel prices? No matter where one goes, it seems there is a cartel operating in every town setting prices for fuel in order that the difference in prices is less than 0.9 cent, yet the price in the next town is completely different. Will the Department conduct a price survey, or is this something that must be done by another Department? If so, will the Minister of State arrange for such a survey to be carried out? While I see prices rise, I do not see them being reduced when the price of a barrel of oil drops. In July there was a high point of approximately $140 a barrel, but the reduced price has not led to an adequate reduction at the pumps. There could be a hidden cartel controlling prices and ripping off consumers.

The Green Party made proposals recently with regard to statutorily reducing speed limits. What is the position in that regard? The Minister of State has acknowledged that if drivers reduce their average speed, we will reduce consumption. What are the issues surrounding the new laws proposed by the Green Party to reduce speed limits uniformly?

Does the Government have a countrywide purchasing policy on the vehicles to be bought, used or leased by State bodies and quangos to encourage fuel efficiency and lower emissions? Government policy on opening up competition in the bus sector has been ignored by the Government for so long. Will the Department ask for an analysis to be carried out of the efficiencies and new technologies being introduced in the train and bus fleets to reduce operational costs? The price of public transport should at least be controlled much better than it is at present.

The Deputy suggested that companies such as Dublin Bus and Iarnród Éireann should be more accountable and more efficient. This has always been the aim. The Deputy quoted the Minister, Deputy Dempsey's comments made during the passing of the Dublin Transport Authority Bill. As the Deputy knows, that authority when established will exercise far greater control and there will be more accountability from the various companies under that regime. The Government is making significant investment in everything to do with Transport 21. As the Deputy said, up to now, Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus have been operating under a subsidy and have carried out their public service obligations but the whole ball game will change under the DTA. Many of the Minister's comments were made in the context of the new regime which will be in place from the target date of 1 January 2009.

The Deputy referred to the price of oil and he is of the opinion that it does not seem to be dropping in price around the country. There is always a delay between a rise and a reduction in price. The formal, official price is notified to us on a monthly basis by the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. One of the factors to be considered is that all oil is bought in US dollars. A barrel of oil cost $147 in July and while the price has been dropping since then, the dollar has been strengthening against the euro. For a long time last year the full effects of oil prices did not hit us because there was a simultaneous devaluation in the value of the dollar. However, the dollar has strengthened since July by 11%, compared with the euro and while the price of oil has been dropping, there will be a delay in this coming through. The full value of the drop in price will not come through because of the strengthening of the dollar. Last year, many of the organisations referred to by the Deputy, State bodies and airlines, CIE and Dublin Bus, bought their oil under contract and had bought oil into the future, so to speak, at very good prices. In recent months they have been buying into the future and some of them may end up having bought part of their supplies at prices even ahead of what could be obtained today. We were not hit with the full effects last year and equally while we should see a reduction at the pumps, it depends on when various other organisations bought oil and the contracts they entered into. It is an art unto itself to buy in advance and to buy at the right price.

The Deputy referred to Iarnród Éireann. The question of car-parking is a different issue but the company would probably say that this car-parking was not always there. Commuter services are very popular as there is a far better service. In many cases, stations have extended their car parks and this costs money. A daily charge has been introduced. Although nobody likes paying for anything, it is very good value compared with what people might pay if visiting a hospital where they would pay by the hour. I believe it is €2 per day. It is justified on the grounds that it is trying to recoup the costs even if it only lays hard-core or whatever.

The Deputy suggested there was nothing about consumers in my contribution. In everything we are trying to do and all transport organisations including the CIE companies and private companies are trying to do everybody is trying to be efficient. However, there is no simple message. It would be wrong and foolish to try to tell people that their public transport will be cheaper. Thankfully the price of oil is dipping at the moment, but it will not reduce much further. The long-term estimates are that it will rise. As such, the central message is that there will be no cheap public transport or cheap private motoring in the future. Everybody will need to try to be efficient. We should not give the wrong message to users of public transport, airlines or private cars, or to people in road haulage or shipping about the cost of fuel, which will increase for everybody. There will be no subsidies for that as to provide them would only cod ourselves in the short term. It is a big problem that we all need to face.

At present, the taxpayer is subsidising Dublin Bus, Iarnród Éireann and Bus Éireann to the tune of hundreds of millions of euros per annum. At no point in the Minister of State's statement does he indicate they will be made more accountable in terms of efficiency in the system. There was no reference to their fare structures or the Government policy of opening up to competition, which should drive fares down, particularly with Dublin Bus. The opposite is happening. Where there was competition the private competitor is being forced out of the marketplace. A court case on the matter is ongoing. I do not use the word "foolish" in a pejorative sense. However, it is foolish for a Government not to stand up for the consumer in these times of increasing costs, particularly public transport costs and have a policy of doing nothing about increasing competition and reducing costs, which is totally unacceptable.

When the DTA Bill was being discussed the Minister would have given his plans in that regard. The DTA will now deal with Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann.

The subsidy will come directly from the Government.

It will have certain powers under the PSO regulations. The Minister previously announced that officials in the Department are working on the public transport regulation Bill, which is really the review of the 1932 Act, which will bring competition into the market. In future the DTA will use private operators. I know of the matters that have gone to court as the Deputy mentioned. However, the whole scene is changing. By the way I used to work for CIE, although not on the Dublin Bus side of things——

Maybe the Minister of State should go back to CIE. I would put him in charge of PR.

——just in case the Deputy accuses me of being unfair or whatever.

I thought the Minister of State was an accountant.

I did not work on the bus side and it was a long time ago. The scene is changing. If there was no competition once upon a time, that is changing very quickly. It is already partly changing through the DTA Act. Going back to when I was in CIE and beyond, the review of the 1932 Act has been discussed since I was a boy.

Many of the private bus owners will find it hard to accept that argument. They believe there is almost no competition.

When the new legislation to review the 1932 Act is introduced that will change the scene nationwide. The Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008 will have an impact on the Dublin region. The forthcoming public transport regulation Bill——-

The Act guarantees the monopoly of Dublin Bus for ten or 15 years.

That applies to certain services.

It is a guarantee.

Okay. There will continue to be a subsidy. The subsidy will come from the Department of Transport through the Dublin Transport Authority. The authority will have more influence than previous bodies had. We needed to strike a balance. Reforms which were proposed in the past were not acceptable to certain people. The Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008 has been brought into law. It might not be the purest form of privatisation that one might like. It will change the scene. When the second Act is enacted, that will be the——

I emphasise that we are talking about competition rather than privatisation.

There is a difference.

The legislation allows for competition. The reform of the 1932 Act will encourage competition.

When will the amending legislation be published?

The Department is working on it at present.

What decade are we talking about?

It might be published early next year.

It is being worked on. The Minister, Deputy Dempsey, has told the committee that the Department was concentrating on the Dublin Transport Authority legislation until it was passed earlier in the summer. Some preliminary work was done on the reform of the 1932 Act. It has been getting the full attention of departmental officials for the last two months. It will take a while.

I thank the Vice Chairman for giving me an opportunity to contribute to this debate. I welcome the Minister of State to this meeting. I do not agree with Deputy O'Dowd about the Minister of State's presentation. As a member of the committee from a rural area, I thought it was interesting. It updated us on the current state of affairs, particularly in relation to rural bus operators, many of which are in a difficult position at present. As a representative of a coastal constituency, Deputy O'Dowd will be aware of the problems being faced by the marine sector, which were also mentioned by the Minister of State.

I would like to speak about fuel prices. If one went to a pump anywhere in the country six months ago, one had to spend between 15% and 20% more than usual to fill one's car each week. I accept that prices have decreased slightly. It may take time for prices to return to previous levels. I am not sure whether that will happen in the next month, three months or six months. It depends on how much oil the companies bought in advance.

This country depends on fossil fuels. Approximately 90% of all fuel comes from non-renewable sources. I refer to the fuel needed for home heating and for vehicles. There is a move from fossil fuels towards renewable energies. Last year's budget provided for assistance to be given to those who purchase vehicles which are run on renewable forms of energy. The Government is continuing to support people who wish to install home heating systems which reduce their dependence on fossil fuels.

I would like to pick up on one or two matters raised in the Minister of State's contribution, such as the bus sector. I spoke in the Seanad about the energy tax directive when it first emerged as an issue, around this time last year. I have been approached by a number of bus operators in County Donegal about this issue. The Coach Tourism and Transport Council of Ireland, which is based in Carrickmacross, represents all private bus operators involved in the tourism sector. I am not sure how many operators it represents, but I am sure it is a sizeable number. Representatives of the council told me this time last year that they were concerned about the Government's decision, in line with the energy tax directive, to abolish the assistance they received. It was originally planned to abolish the scheme in late 2007, although it was later extended for a further period. As a consequence of budget 2008, it will now be abolished on 1 November next. It is an alarming set of circumstances for those who are operating in the tourism sector. I refer to people like Mr. John McGinley from County Donegal, who brings many people between Donegal and Dublin on a daily basis. That is just one example from the sector in question.

We also need to protect those who operate coach tours throughout Ireland, to and from our cities. The school transport sector will be hit also because the people who operate school transport runs had to tender for business prior to the 2008 to 2009 school term. The tenders were made without people knowing whether assistance would be provided.

I am unclear as to whether the rural operators will be covered by the DTA when the authority comes into operation in January. I assume the public transport (regulation) Bill will address the matter. What does that mean, in essence, and can an interim solution be found ahead of the publication of the Bill? If not, private operators will find it extremely difficult to continue in business. I know of several operators in my area who will possibly be forced to close down. The area needs to be examined. Has there been much discussion with the CTTA to date? It may appear easy to solve the problem and perhaps it is not solely the responsibility of the Government. Britain and other countries in mainland Europe are in the same situation. Everybody is affected by the oil crisis. The situation may be easing slightly but who knows what will happen when the full effects of lower prices globally come into effect in a small country such as Ireland.

The marine sector is also finding the situation increasingly difficult. The Minister of State has the figures. Many of the smaller fishermen along the west coast were forced off the sea this year as a result of fuel prices. They could not afford to fish. Even with quota restrictions they were unable to fill their quota because of high fuel prices.

The issue of private bus operators is a national one that will affect many small coach operators in almost every parish in the country and it is important that it is addressed.

I thank the Minister of State for addressing the committee. His contribution was most informative. I do not wish to repeat points made by other committee members but I am my party's spokesperson on school transport and I feel strongly about the issue. The matter may be more pertinent to the Department of Education and Science but the Minister of State might be able to assist. To date, nobody in Government has addressed the problem. Five months ago at Easter school transport charges were increased on two separate occasions, in some cases by 70%. The rise in fuel costs was cited as being a factor by the Department of Education and Science. Private bus operators provide most of the school transport in the country. When they negotiated their contracts in July the increase was not passed on to them. Given that the school transport increases were attributed to the massive increases in fuel costs, it is obvious that parents and pupils are being taken for a ride as the increases have not been passed on to the bus operators. The situation is critical. I do not wish to get involved in the Department's contractual arrangements with private bus operators who are not part of the public service, but if they do not break even, they will be unable to fulfil the contract. The situation is worrying.

A fuel rebate is another important issue. I appreciate that a European directive governs the area. However, the Government announced it would put a mechanism in place to deal with the situation. So far that has not been done and there is great uncertainty as to the future of school transport around the country. Perhaps the Minister of State can shed some light on what is going on because no reasonable explanation has been forthcoming from the Department of Education and Science.

In reply to Senator Ó Domhnaill, the price at the pump should come down but it is a slow process. The official prices only change once a month. It will not come down by as much as it went up.

The Minister of State has never said a truer word.

Even if the price of oil came right back to where it was, one has to remember currency changes. Last year we were saved when the price of oil was going through the roof because the dollar was going through the floor. Since July alone, the dollar has strengthened by 11% against the euro. Since all oil is bought in dollars, it is an important factor. If the price of oil stays as it is today and the US economy improves, there would be much pain from a currency point of view for eurozone countries. While we may feel we were hard hit last year, we were saved by a weak dollar. Aer Lingus and the CIE companies had bought oil well ahead and did well out of it. They might not necessarily be repeating that success this year. Now might be a good time. However, if a company bought into a contract last July at $140 a barrel because it was believed it could cost $200 a barrel by Christmas, it would look foolish now. Buying oil futures is an art form in itself.

We have met the Coach Tourism and Transport Council of Ireland and explained the problem to them. It has said it will have no alternative but to put up prices. I do not believe there will be much a choice, particularly if the rebate of 30 cent a litre is withdrawn. Transport services are to be operated on a commercial basis. Under the existing law, it is only the CIE companies that are able to have subvented services. The Dublin Transport Authority Act will change that in the greater Dublin area and the authority could contract private companies to run subvented services. Not every service operated by Dublin Bus is subvented. Only new legislation along these lines would allow for a subvented service outside of Dublin. Only the Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus companies are mandated to provide a network of subvented services. All bus operators in the school transport sector will feel the pinch of current oil prices, especially with the withdrawal of the rebate from 1 November. There will be no rebate from 1 November and costs will depend on the price of oil. The provision of school transport is a matter for the Minister for Education and Science. I am not sure what the nature of the contract is that individual operators have with Bus Éireann or the Minister for Education and Science. I do not know whether it allows them to look for more if they have a legitimate case, but there is no doubt that when the rebate terminates on 1 November, fuel will be much dearer, as the rebate is worth about 30 cent a litre.

I assumed there would be a mechanism in place to replace the rebate.

I do not know. I cannot say on what the Minister for Education and Science is working.

It was indicated in replies to parliamentary questions earlier this year that the Government would negotiate with the stakeholders involved to see what could be done. It appears from the Minister of State's statement that nothing will be done

I know that the Coach Tourism and Transport Council of Ireland, CTTC, also covers the providers of school transport.

I am not sure, but I am more interested in the school transport scheme.

That is an issue for the Minister for Education and Science.

The European Union made a ruling that one could not continue with the system the way it was, but that did not mean one could not find another way around it. The Government was attempting to find another way. I think the situation is different in the United Kingdom. As far as I am aware, the rebate is not being cut there. Will the officials advise the committee on this?

The rebate has been withdrawn from coach and bus operators.

Will the Minister of State have his officials consider the situation in the United Kingdom?

The law is being reviewed in the United Kingdom to see how the government should proceed.

The government in the United Kingdom is not cutting the rebate, whereas we are.

This matter was dealt with in the Finance Bill last year. It is a question of finding another way. We will be able to subvent services where there is a legal basis to do so. Through the Dublin Transport Authority Act, we have provided for subvented services through the payment of a subsidy to Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann. We will be able to provide for subvented services by private operators in the Dublin area providing——

Or services originating outside the Dublin area but that is not the type of service we are talking about in this instance.

I do not know the position on school transport.

The officials may be able to clarify the issue.

Our information is that it is a matter for negotiation and does not require legislation. It is up to operators to negotiate with the Department of Education and Science.

That is a different matter.

There are different ways of proceeding. We have decided to withdraw the rebate.

The question I am asking of the Minister of State and his officials is whether it is the case that the rebate has not been withdrawn in the United Kingdom?

We are aware that the United Kingdom is examining the options before deciding how to proceed.

Will the Minister of State clarify whether the United Kingdom is continuing the refund within the parameters of the EU directive, pending a final decision on how to proceed, rather than discontinuing the rebate as we have done?

We stopped the rebate in a legal sense. That has been copperfastened in the Finance Act. However, the Department of Education and Science is free to allocate more money to private bus operators if it so wishes. The Department does not require a legal basis to do so. We are speaking from a legal position. EU law stipulates that there must be a legal basis to the provision of subvention for any of the CIE companies or private operator. That is what we have done through the Dublin Transport Authority Act.

That does not make sense. The Dublin Transport Authority Act does not apply to school transport. I do not wish to be rude or disrespectful but I am simply seeking clarification on this point. I ask that the Minister of State or one of his officials set out the facts. I do not mean to embarrass the Minister of State. I merely seek clarification of the exact position.

I do not know exactly because it is a matter for the Minister for Education and Science.

The Minister of State's officials seem to know something. They are writing a note for him which I would be interested to read. It might be helpful if the officials could speak.

I am not preventing them from doing so.

In the interests of clarity, will the Minister of State explain what is happening?

As I said, we are dealing with this on the basis of EU law and have introduced legislation to implement our obligations. There is no legal issue in regard to the contracts agreed between the Department of Education and Science and private bus operators. It is a matter for both parties to agree the contractual arrangements.

Is that the case provided they do not breach the regulations?

It is a matter of contractual agreement between the two parties. EU law is applicable only to public bus services, but the schemes operated by the Department in conjunction with private operators do not constitute a public service. The arrangements are contractually based and a matter for the parties involved.

I understand Bus Éireann has announced that it has signed contracts with service providers in a manner that is entirely within the law. Will the Minister of State clarify this?

I do not know. The Deputy is moving into another area.

It is an area about which the Minister of State should know.

I should know about everything.

Will the Minister of State come back to the committee with information on this issue?

I will certainly ask the Department of Education and Science for clarification. It is a matter for that Department.

The Minister of State's document indicates that the price of petrol has risen by 12% and that of diesel by 21% since the beginning of the year. There is no disputing this. I notice on the other side of the page that the fuel costs of Aer Lingus rose by 29% in the same period. What sort of fuel does Aer Lingus use?

Was that the overall bill? Aviation fuel is cheaper per litre as it has no excise charge.

If that is the case should it not be less than the increases in petrol and diesel, of 12% and 21% respectively, which the Minister of State quoted earlier? If aviation fuel is cheaper where does the figure of 29% come from?

It is cheaper per litre. The overall costs for Aer Lingus rose by 29% but there is no excise duty on aviation fuel.

Would the Minister not expect it to be cheaper as a result?

No. If petrol cost €1 per litre——

Aviation fuel costs less.

I do not want to get into the arithmetic but if all fuel cost €1 per litre and the excise duty on petrol was 50 cent, bringing it up to €1.50, a doubling of the price of oil would increase aviation fuel to €2 and petrol to €2.50 so the price effect on aviation would be much bigger. The excise charge does not increase when petrol increases, though the VAT does.

That school of economics baffles me.

It is no wonder the country is in such a mess.

If we could sit down with a piece of paper in front of us it would make sense.

I will return to Deputy O'Dowd's question on the reduction in overall speed limits. We appreciate that lower speeds would benefit the environment. However, billions of euro were invested by the National Roads Authority in fantastic roads, such as the interurban roads to the west, to get people as quickly and safely as possible from one place to another and for the benefit of the commercial life of the country. On the great stretch from Athlone to Kilbeggan, on which I travel, the limit is 100 km/h but the limit is 100 km/h on many small, crooked roads with uneven surfaces throughout Ireland. No sane Government would propose reducing the limit on interurban roads given the safety issues involved. Has the Government made a decision on this or was the proposal a flyer on the part of the Green Party?

I attended a meeting of the Council of Ministers in Germany a couple of months ago and the Dutch were very keen on the idea. They call it "eco driving" and though I am no authority on it I understand that if one wants to waste fuel then driving up and down O'Connell Street at ten yards or one mile per hour is the way to do it. The other way is to drive on the new road to Galway at 90 km/h.

We must travel under the speed limit. In case the Minister of State does not know, it is 120 km/h on the motorway.

It applies more to me than to Deputy O'Dowd. From the point of view of fuel consumption, a person driving to Donegal, Galway or elsewhere at between 50 mph and 55 mph will find this is the most economical speed.

Did we have to build the new roads to the standards that we did to drive a car at 50 km/h?

I hope we did not build the roads solely to get people to their destinations quicker.

It is a question of safety, according to the National Roads Authority, NRA.

It is a question of safety. Given the Kyoto Protocol and so on, the world is changing. The Department is working on a sustainable transport action plan that should be ready by the end of the year. There are very clear fuel and emissions savings that can be made using the idea that was mentioned. Things must be done carefully. Some countries are very good at this, particularly the Netherlands; it is all a matter of enforcement. The Dutch have a wide-ranging camera system that does not solely aim to catch speeding from a safety point of view; they equally catch people who waste fuel. The world is changing, although oil reached a price of between $103 and $105 per barrel today so perhaps things do not seem so frightening. Some weeks ago people spoke of oil reaching a price of $200 per barrel and that was frightening. Eco-driving now exists and the Dutch are major proponents of it. Any politician or party that mentions it here is merely reflecting what is happening in other countries. This area will be addressed in the sustainable transport action plan.

Is the Government going to legislate to reduce speeds on roads and motorways?

We are working on a——

This is something the Green Party has proposed.

The Green Party is only part of the Government.

Let us see what part it is.

We are working on a sustainable transport action plan that will be released for discussion. If it is to be implemented it will require legislation but it is being done in other European countries.

Is the Government considering legislation on this?

We are working on the action plan and there will be a consultation process. In this context there could be legislation.

May I raise one last point on fuel wastage? There is evidence that Iarnród Éireann leaves its diesel trains running overnight, while sitting in stations.

I heard of this in my capacity as a local Deputy. The process is known as idling.

The engine is left on and burning fuel.

If I recall correctly, one is better leaving a train engine running than turning it off for 15 to 20 minutes.

I am talking about trains that are left running, while stationary, all night.

That is a different matter. It was a feature of older engines but newer ones are more finely tuned.

Could the Minister of State query this issue with Iarnród Éireann and get back to us?

I thank the Minister of State and his officials for their contribution to this meeting. Much ground was covered but whether we are much wiser is another story. The Minister of State gave an honest opinion of his brief and for this we thank him.

Sitting suspended at 5 p.m. and resumed at 5.01 p.m.
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