JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 Jan 2010

Business of Joint Committee.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Last week, through the clerk, I asked the Chairman to convene a meeting as early as possible this week on the recent big freeze and the appalling conditions that householders, commuters and travellers faced over the past fortnight and, in many parts of the country, over the past three weeks. It is mind-boggling that the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport is discussing an important matter today but, in the greater scheme of things, it is much less important than the devastation that occurred in the country since New Year's Eve. It was an incredible couple of weeks in this country from New Year's Day, where no one seemed to be in charge and we had no Government. It makes a strong case that we do not need a Government, at least not one as incompetent as the current Government, given the way local government and people had to try to manage in the days after New Year's Day.

It beggars belief that the emergency response committee did not meet on New Year's Day to examine the situation. Large tracts of the midlands and the west were under many inches of snow and people were completely bogged down and unable to get out of their houses. Senior citizens were trapped for three and four days and were unable to get messages or to carry out their basic business. This was an appalling situation. In urban areas, senior citizens, workers and commuters could not walk outside their houses. Estates were iced over for eight or nine days and no action was taken to alleviate the situation in urban estates.

Most significantly, a whole tranche of major national roads, including areas I visited in Meath, Wicklow and Kildare and roads such as the R410, were virtually impassable. Farming communities were essentially trapped. All the time, we had no Government and we had no Minister for Transport. The Minister for Transport was not there. I said at the weekend that everyone is entitled to a break and that the Minister for Transport, by his own lights, works hard. We had no chief of operations, no directing force and no emergency response committee. People were left to fend for themselves, with some belated help from the 34 local authorities. This is totally unacceptable. Last Thursday, some five or six days into the crisis, the hapless Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley appeared with a bewildered-looking Taoiseach to tell us what was happening.

I have letters from a range of city and county managers. In the meantime, the salt was running out and the grit was running out because 50,000 tonnes had been used. If the weather had gone on this week, the country would have ground to a halt and many roads across counties like Westmeath, Offaly, Leitrim, Sligo, Galway and Clare would be impassable. It would be up to local authorities to decide the roads that were closed and the roads that were passable.

Last Wednesday night, the capital city ground to a halt. I was on the street coming to this House to do business at 1.30 p.m. It became virtually impassable, with buses sliding sideways. For the safety of pedestrians, the bus service had to be cancelled and a capital city was brought to a halt over 24 hours. It was an amazing series of blunders and errors. If this was a small or medium-sized company and the chief operations officer and chief executive did not take charge, we would ask for their resignations.

The Chairman has not held a meeting on this amazing situation even though this is the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport and I believe he should go, as should the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey. He left this country to its own devices. I accept that he works hard and that everyone in this room, including our own staff, committee staff and journalists, needs a break from time to time. However, he is the line manager, the man in charge, and he should have been here. He should not have left us to our own devices.

The Labour Party set out what it felt should have been done. We wanted a national weather emergency to be declared, with all agencies directed to work for the people to keep society and the economy moving. We wanted the NRA to immediately source relevant salt supplies from whatever source, given that our only salt mine, in Carrickfergus, was running out. We also asked for the Army to be brought in to help local authorities, a suggestion which Fine Gael colleagues made at the same time, for which I commend them.

The 34 local authorities, including four in Dublin, two in County Galway and two in County Tipperary, were left to fend for themselves. Their grants were cut by the Government and they did not even know what their road maintenance grants would be for 2010. Before he left for his break, the Minister for Transport told me he proposed to announce the grants the following week. There had been a ten-day weather forecast and he knew the situation would be incredibly bad but he did not act. He should have immediately told the local authorities to spend what they had to spend to look after the people, to make sure they were fed and watered, could get hold of supplies and travel to work or school. I salute the workers of the 34 local authorities for the efforts they have made, as I do members of the Army, the NRA and other agencies for their tremendous work.

Local authorities were underfunded and under-resourced. In the few days before Christmas nearly every one of them held meetings. My own authority, Fingal County Council, had to come forward with a budget which was slashed by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley. The Minister for Transport was also going to slash its budget. We have had a shambles and it has looked like we have had no Government for the past two or three weeks. The Dáil, the main Chamber of these Houses, should discuss the issue as soon as possible.

We have to get rid of the Government and have a general election. The Chairman of the committee and the Minister for Transport should go and we should start afresh. This is not the first time this has happened because a few months ago we had the flooding disaster when communities all over the country were left in a desperate situation. Farm families were trapped for days, while their livestock was trapped without fodder. Some 15 or 20 years ago Deputy Penrose called for the establishment of a Shannon basin authority which would have had total control——

Senator Donie Cassidy

It was the late Seán Doherty.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I knew the late Seán Doherty well. Deputy Penrose also called for the establishment of such an authority to address the crisis once and for all in order that when there was flooding, an emergency response committee would be in place, under the chairmanship of the Taoiseach, if necessary. Huge rural communities were left to their own devices and Cork city was nearly submerged, like Noah's Ark in the Bible, while the Government stood idly by. A couple of months later, during the big freeze, it has done the same. Shame on it. This lack of leadership is the umpteenth example of why we need a new Government as soon as possible with Ministers who will go out among the people to give them hope and leadership. We have had this Government and Minister for far too long and they, with the Chairman of the committee, should go now.

Chairman

All members have received a copy of the motion of no confidence tabled by Deputy Broughan. For the information of the committee, I would like to outline the factual position leading up to the motion. At lunchtime last Friday the clerk received a request by e-mail from the Deputy to arrange for the relevant Ministers, Deputies Dempsey and Gormley, the NRA, city and county managers and other relevant parties to attend today's meeting. The clerk immediately replied by e-mail to Deputy Broughan that it would not be practicable to arrange such a meeting within the timeframe given and also that the agenda for today's meeting had been agreed. She undertook to bring the request to the attention of the committee at today's meeting with a view to arranging an out-of-slot meeting next week and requesting the people mentioned to appear. As no further response was received from Deputy Broughan, the clerk assumed that he understood and accepted the position, until the motion of no confidence was received yesterday. At no stage did I refuse to hold a meeting to discuss the issue. I was sent a copy of the e-mail on Friday evening and did not read it until over the weekend. I was assured by the clerk that the matter had been dealt with.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Before I ask my question, can the Chairman confirm that the request to arrange a meeting was made on 8 January?

Chairman

It arrived at 1.15 p.m. on the Friday and the clerk did not read it until after her lunch on Friday afternoon.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

This issue has been ongoing since 19 or 20 December. I wonder what efforts members of the Labour Party or Fine Gael made to convene local area meetings to address the problems encountered. The councillors in my area and I were in touch with council engineers and other staff, as well as the county manager, all of whom made themselves available to us as local elected members to address issues as they arose. Unfortunately, owing to constraints on the availability of salt and difficulties in finding available staff, some areas were not gritted. In the area with which I am familiar council staff did the best they could with the resources available to them. The county manager made it clear at all times that the issue of resources applied to human resources as well as the national supply of salt. There was serious flooding in the constituency I represent and the council made available a full team to tackle it. Moneys were found and paid to the council before Christmas; therefore, the fact that more salt and personnel were not available to the council was not the reason it was not able to get to certain roads.

It is clear an effort is being made to politicise the issue. We all know there were areas which were not salted. While it is not humanly possible to salt all areas, some roads certainly should have been salted but it is for councillors and staff to agree a road maintenance programme over a long period of time. The programmes which were in place were obviously surpassed by the significant frost and snow. It was somewhat disingenuous to make a call on 8 January for a national emergency to be declared when the rest of us had been stuck in the middle of the crisis since 19 or 20 December. It underlines a theory, to which some in the west hold, that until something happens in Dublin, there is no crisis. It is clear that Deputy Broughan, the Labour Party and sections of Fine Gael adhere to such a mindset, while the rest of us were trying to resolve issues on the ground.

I spoke to the county manager and senior engineers on a number of occasions. I asked them if they thought there was a necessity to involve Departments, the Minister or the emergency response units but they made no such request to me and considered the unfolding crisis was within their competence to handle. I wonder if opportunists are seeking to make a political issue out of this. What efforts did other elected Members make to convene special area meetings to address the problems encountered?

Deputy Shane McEntee

Harmony has gone out the window since the first part of this meeting. Since I entered the Dáil I have always found committees to be helpful and that, if there is a local issue, all Deputies come together to work in the interests of the people. I would like to think we could do this in regard to what has happened in the past three weeks. Ultimately, no one has politicised the issue. Many things have happened since 18 December. I live in a rural area which is surrounded by towns and large villages. On Christmas Eve I went to do my first and last day's shopping since last year. Navan was like a war zone, with staff in four ambulances in full swing picking people up off the ground. A total of 89 people ended up with broken bones. The same thing was happening across the country. The weather settled and everybody relaxed over Christmas but two or three days after it the situation deteriorated. We were given warnings on a daily basis of what was going to happen. I know we have not had weather like this for a long time. We cannot predict the weather or blame the Government for it, although the country will blame it no matter what happens. Even if Deputy Broughan's motion is out of order, we must still bring people in to seek an answer to the question of what happened between Christmas——

Chairman

Let me interrupt the Deputy. I have no problem with arranging a meeting as quickly as it can be legally arranged. There are procedures——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

The Chairman did not do that. It was not the first time he had failed to arrange a meeting; meetings were requested on many other issues. That is why I tabled the motion.

Deputy Shane McEntee

May I finish——

Chairman

There are procedures——

Senator John Ellis

We have one every week.

Chairman

As Deputy McEntee is aware, four days notice is required. I assure him that because of the reasonable approach he is taking once the procedures which the clerk is obliged to follow are followed, a meeting will be called. I have no difficulty with this and, as I said, did not refuse to do it. As I explained, it was not possible to have the meeting today. I am quite happy to co-operate with the Deputy and the other members who are serious about finding an answer to this problem. If the Deputy wishes to make a proposal for a meeting next week, I will be quite happy to accept it.

Deputy Shane McEntee

I will finish explaining why it is important to have a meeting. I heard what Deputy Dooley said — that was the answer we received from the office of the Minister, Deputy Gormley, when it was contacted after Christmas; we were told that Fine Gael and the Labour Party were in control of some of the councils. That was a pathetic answer. I understand the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, who is from my own county was away attending a wedding, which is understandable. It is a fantastic occasion and he has a fantastic family, about which there is no question. He was entitled to attend. However, this is about the county councils, not just my own but those the length and breadth of Ireland. Deputy Feighan can confirm what I am saying. The NRA was not notified that there was a shortage of grit. Northern Ireland stockpiles 50,000 tonnes for six counties only; on Thursday the Taoiseach said we had stockpiled 55,000 tonnes for 26 counties. On Thursday the Minister, Deputy Gormley, said the NRA had been informed——

Chairman

May I——

Deputy Shane McEntee

I ask the Chairman to allow me to finish. Sometimes I find it hard to get going but I must finish.

According to the NRA, it was not told to locate salt. However, the Minister said he did inform it of the situation. That is where everything has gone wrong. If the Minister has eight or ten people working for him — as does the Minister for Transport — they did not do their jobs. When Meath County Council sought four loads of grit, it was only guaranteed two. We were depending on business people to provide us with grit. There should have been someone in charge under the Ministers — someone who could have taken control following the response from all of the authorities. We have ended up with between 8,000 and 10,000 people with broken legs and arms. Millions of euro worth of damage has been done. Business people have gone out of business because there was nobody in charge between Christmas Day and New Year's Eve, although people are well paid to be in charge.

I stand up for the Minister for Transport on this one. I took no pleasure in it but for five days I was like a stuck record, on radio station the length and breadth of Ireland, wondering where Ministers were. It was a source of embarrassment when they came out on the Thursday and put everything into place. In County Meath the conditions on Christmas Eve were similar to those in Dublin on the Thursday I came up. I saw what it was like in Dublin. The two Ministers must be brought before the committee. We depend on the people who work for them to cover for them when they are off duty. We need not have had what we had.

Chairman

I call Senator Ellis who will be followed by Deputy Feighan.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I asked first.

Chairman

I am sorry; the Senator asked prior to the Deputy.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I know what was asked, as does the Chairman. If the Chairman wants impartiality in the committee, he should treat people fairly.

Chairman

I will let the Deputy speak, although Senator Ellis did ask first.

Senator John Ellis

If he wants to speak, let him do so.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I ask the Senator to go ahead.

Senator John Ellis

The first thing we should have done was to commend the local authorities on the actions they had taken. With the resources they had, some of them did a tremendous job and they deserve to be complimented on it. All that is happening here is that members are trying to score cheap political points. Any of us can score such points any day we want. I heard Deputy McEntee on "Morning Ireland" one morning and if he had received an offer to appear again, I know he would not have accepted because when the reporter asked him the questions, he was not able to answer them; he only adhered to the mantra that the Government and everyone else was at fault.

Deputy Shane McEntee

You are wrong. What I was trying to do was to persuade the Government to come out of hiding——

Chairman

Through the Chair, Deputy.

Deputy Shane McEntee

I do not care what way I did it.

Senator John Ellis

All the Deputy was interested in was making an attack on the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, which he is trying to reverse today.

Deputy Shane McEntee

I am not. I am calling a spade a spade.

Senator John Ellis

The problem is that we experienced something that had not been seen in this country since 1963. The last time we had serious snow was in the 1980s when——

A Deputy

They were in government.

Senator John Ellis

No; I am not worried about who is in power. All I am worried about is the action taken by the local authorities. They took all the actions they could. We can talk about salt but does anybody here know the position? If salt is not kept properly, it disappears and becomes useless. The life of salt and grit is probably only six months, after which the quality deteriorates and they become useless.

Deputy Shane McEntee

Some 50,000 tonnes were stockpiled in Northern Ireland; only 55,000 tonnes were stockpiled in the Republic. There is something wrong.

Senator John Ellis

I live nearer to the Border than anybody here. I was in Northern Ireland last week because I had to attend the funeral of the father of a colleague in County Donegal. All that was gritted in the North were the main national arteries. Nothing was done on many of the regional roads. The main roads were gritted but the second-class roads were not. I would like members to realise this. That was actually done here. My county council gritted every regional and national primary road in its area, plus the major arteries. We had no problem. However, in the adjoining county of Roscommon there were major problems which were due to the fact that some of the area's engineers had not brought in any salt or grit, or even sought it.

Dealing with roads is the responsibility of the local authorities. I agree that we may have to consider funding; they may need reimbursement for the money they have spent. However, the important point is that they provided the same amount of grit and salt as they had for the last ten years — exactly the same amount — but we experienced weather we had not experienced for a long time. The weather was bad in rural Ireland from 18 or 19 December but there was no crisis, as far as many in this city were concerned, until there were a couple of inches of snow. It is no different from when we have a shower of rain; the city clogs up and stops. I do not know whether that is the fault of drivers or the local authorities or even God. The bottom line is that we need to ensure that in future there will be backup available with regard to the provision of salt. Deputy McEntee, or Deputy Broughan — I do not know which — mentioned salt from the United Kingdom. However, the United Kingdom is already short of salt for its own needs and has been since last week. In fact, it decided to cut the amount of salt it intended to use by 25%, on the instructions of the relevant Minister, to try to maintain supplies.

I agree with the Chairman: let us hold a meeting and discuss the whole business. In addition, let us invite the gentleman responsible for co-ordinating the emergency services. This is required because we now have a water emergency which is much greater in many cases — whether for farmers or householders — than the problems encountered with the roads. At least, as far as the roads were concerned, there were few who were completely unable to move. They might not have been able to move as freely as they would have liked——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Many people were injured, including Mr. Parlon.

Senator John Ellis

Deputy Broughan, you or I could walk out the door of this room——

Chairman

I shall intervene. This item is not on the agenda. I allowed a discussion on it because of the motion. People are present in the gallery and a very important private session is to follow on the ports. I am prepared to accept Deputy McEntee's proposal for a special meeting next week subject to our getting a room. We will invite all the parties concerned——

Deputy Shane McEntee

Ministers.

Chairman

Ministers and city managers.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

May I respond?

Chairman

Deputy Feighan is next. I have no difficulty about having this matter investigated properly but we must follow proper rules and procedures. I call on Deputy Feighan and ask members to be brief because we must move on.

Deputy Frank Feighan

There is anger that elderly people in rural Ireland and in the cities have been let down.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Hear, hear

Deputy Frank Feighan

They were let down by the local authorities, the Government and politicians. It is wrong for politicians to deny there is a problem. We are sitting in this committee meeting today. On 30 December at 10.39 a.m. I sent an urgent e-mail to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, requesting that he intervene to act on behalf of the local authorities, including mine in County Roscommon, and seek salt from anywhere, whether Northern Ireland or elsewhere. The reply I received from the Department was to the effect that it was closed during Christmas and that Roscommon County Council was controlled by Fine Gael, which is not the point. I do not understand this reply because Roscommon County Council is controlled by Fianna Fáil and the Independent members. That is not the reason. Fianna Fáil, Independent and Fine Gael councillors were doing their damnedest to sort this out but at a national level we were forgotten. I cannot understand how we had a situation in which people could not get out of their houses and regional roads were not addressed. We were under serious pressure. I could not understand why the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the emergency response committee met only last week. This situation was ongoing. The people of those areas have been let down and they felt forgotten. Somebody has to answer. There was no plan, no initiative. Every time I telephone a local authority I hear about a development plan or an emergency plan. No emergency plan was in place and there must be answers. To this date, the Boyle-Castlerea and the Ballaghadereen-Castlerea roads are virtually impassable. These are two major towns.

There was no sand or gravel. We could have taken some from sand pits. There must be a facility whereby local farmers who maintain agricultural machines during the summer can help out local authorities at such times. I compliment Leitrim County Council because it had the initiative to call in the Army which came to clear paths and roads. That made a difference.

I do not want to be political but the people are angry. They want politicians to explain why it took so long to address such situations. It is also a question of finance but the fact remains that the Government, local authorities and politicians let the people down. We must have answers and an investigation into what happened. People are still trapped in their houses. This morning I visited a lady who has not been out of her house since 17 December. That is unbelievable and unforgivable. As a committee, we must have answers to these very important questions.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Some useful things emerged from the crisis. The National Roads Authority had a website that provided road and air temperatures which I used every day to see the reality, literally on the ground. I compliment it on that aspect of its work. I compliment the local authorities inasmuch as they did what they could with the resources they had. However, the key point is the problem concerning which group is debating the issue. There was a meeting with the Ministers and the Minister, Deputy Gormley, met the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government but responsibility for roads was moved to the Department of Transport. Another problem is that the budget for roads was cut on a national level last year, with €173 million in cutbacks for allocations to local authorities which therefore did not have the resources they would have had.

The other issue is one of policy. The Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, is now discussing transferring responsibility for the road network from his Department to the National Roads Authority. That will affect accountability and transparency regarding what happens. The bottom line is that we need a plan to be in place from this time onwards. A key point must be to define the minimum resources of salt and grit needed over a prolonged period. Deputy McEntee made a comparison between the resources available in Northern Ireland and those in the South. That is a very telling point. The other point is that as Christmas approaches, with January and February following, there is always very bad weather and we should plan ahead more than we do.

On the afternoon of New Year's Eve I drove from Listowel to Drogheda which took me about eight hours. I saw no gritting anywhere although I travelled on national primary routes. The strangest aspect was that when I got near to Dublin Airport and beyond — perhaps Deputy Broughan can say whether this relates to the boundary line of Fingal County Council — the roads were grand. Up to that point, particularly in Dublin, they were treacherous and dangerous and it was the same in County Kildare. It did not make sense. I do not know if enough work was done, on that day in particular.

There is another important point I will make, namely, the legal issue concerning the gritting of footpaths. Many of the elderly people who injured their bones and limbs fell on footpaths. Local authorities do not, or did not, grit these on the basis that they did not have the resources, or if they did, they then would be responsible for further falls. If there is a legal issue perhaps we might ask the question of whichever Department is involved, whether Transport or the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. When the Secretaries General come to this committee as I believe they should, they should provide us with a definition on this issue and explain why footpaths cannot be gritted in urban areas. Drogheda has a population of 30,000 but one could not walk on the paths because they were too dangerous. The problem was that if one went out, as a good samaritan, to grit one's footpaths one was then liable if a person fell. There is a legal issue. If a person acts in good faith, as a good samaritan, to clear the footpath——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

On that same point, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, categorically stated on Saturday that if a person clears——

Chairman

Allow Deputy O'Dowd speak.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I am merely making a point. The Minister said——

Chairman

There are other speakers who asked to contribute. Deputy Broughan made a long contribution. Is Deputy O'Dowd finished?

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

The Minister said the legal advice was that such persons were not liable.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I am glad to hear that because it is contrary to what we were told. The key point is that there must be a plan for the safe clearing of paths in urban areas. There must be interlinked plans. It is true this happened at Christmas but nobody was in charge and that is why people were concerned. Nobody was in charge, nobody was there and the whole thing collapsed. We are lucky the weather changed this week.

Chairman

Delegates have been waiting for an hour. I ask Deputies Ahern and Kennedy to be brief.

Deputy Noel Ahern

We are talking about a motion that I consider ridiculous in its wording and in the way it was put. It has more to do with the recruitment by the Labour Party of a new councillor in Dublin North-East than with the weather. Nobody will say that everything was perfect for the past ten days. It has been far from perfect and I cannot understand it. I was amazed last week that people in shops, Government offices and houses were gawking out their windows at terribly dangerous footpaths while nobody went to get a bloody shovel to clean them, as they always used to. I cannot understand this. Obviously, if people are sick or elderly they cannot do this but most householders are able-bodied and had a week or two off. It was the same with businesses and Government offices, everywhere. The situation was ridiculous last week, never mind on New Year's Day when people should have been out using their savvy without necessarily needing politicians or the Taoiseach to tell them what to do.

Regarding the motion, members have agreed to have a meeting as soon as possible next week. Let us call in the officials from the relevant Departments, the emergency response committee and local authorities. I would like to hear from others, such as the insurance company that told people to run their taps. There are still large areas of Dublin and the country that have no water, including in my and Deputy Broughan's constituencies, because insurance companies told people to run their tap water.

Part of the reason people did not clear their footpaths was because some of the media last week, including RTE, were running items. The legal profession always chases ambulances and it put information out to encourage people to do nothing at all. Meanwhile the footpaths were as dangerous as glass. Many people have some level of responsibility, but if it is agreed to bring them before the committee next week, let us do that and bury the motion.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

The offer to bring in all of the people concerned is very worthwhile. We have to learn from the mistakes made. There is no point saying certain things operated satisfactorily; they did not. I am not apportioning blame. Deputy Broughan's motion is over the top and is out of proportion to the realities of the day. In terms of future discussions on how we might do things differently, while councils have done fantastic work they did not always use their resources to maximum effect. Deputy O'Dowd made the point that the roads were gritted brilliantly every day. We also had a situation whereby crews picking up litter were still picking up litter from two inches of frosted, iced, snow-capped footpaths. I do not think they got too much litter from under the snow. Such people would have been far better off with spades, shovels and brushes to clean the footpaths so that people could walk down the streets and go into the shops. I am not apportioning blame.

Fingal County Council did a fantastic job. However, the reality is that everybody can learn across the board about whether a lack of salt ordered or sharing of salt among county councils created the problem. Different experts have commented on the issue. One management or security expert, speaking on a television programme, suggested the fact that companies allowed their staff in the city to go home early on the Thursday was a major problem and people should have been told to stay in work. However, the companies were doing what they would regard as a rational thing, that is, telling their staff to go home early to beat the traffic jams. The fact that so many people hit the streets at the one time in their cars resulted in the city becoming gridlocked. Therefore, the city council could not get its gritting machines into operation. Dublin Bus also had problems due to the lack of gritting.

On the cleaning of footpaths outside one's house, coming from an insurance background as I do I can clearly see why people would have been reluctant to do that. It is linked to the point Deputy Ahern made about people leaving taps running. Insurance companies would make the point that if one does something, one is holding oneself to be personally liable if someone claims one did not do it correctly or should have done it a different way. If the law has to be changed, one thing this committee could recommend would be that.

Chairman

We will discuss that.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

I ask Deputy Broughan, in light of what he has heard, to withdraw his ridiculous motion.

Chairman

I will allow Deputy Broughan to make a brief second intervention. The Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government held a meeting yesterday at which the Emergency Response Co-Ordination Committee president appeared, and there was no difficulty with that. Equally, there is no difficulty with this.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Like other Deputies and Senators, we all worked our butts off to try to respond to and interact with householders and county councils to try to help people in the days after New Year's Day. Some days, like everybody else whose office is based here, I struggled in and out. At the earliest opportunity I asked for this meeting. As happened on a number of other, serious occasions, you did not respond. I believe you see your primary role as trying to protect the Minister for Transport. I do not think that is acceptable. The transport system almost collapsed. I accept what our colleagues from around the country are saying regarding flooding — I mentioned it the first time. The response to flooding was equally outrageous.

Chairman

I do not want a repeat of what you have said already. I have allowed you——-

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

My point is that there is no Dublin versus country.

Chairman

We heard what you have had to say already.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

We have one country.

Chairman

We have heard what you have had to say already and I will not allow a second speech. I allowed you to make a short intervention.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I have one very brief point regarding Deputy Ahern's comment on householders. The supplies of salt in shops ran out. Why did this happen? It happened because householders in my estate and in many areas in Dublin North-East were trying to clear the footpaths themselves. They did not sit around. They needed a front person to appear on televisions and lead the response, but nobody did. On our level of responsibility, the committee should have come in as quickly as possible and invigilated what went wrong. On that basis, I propose the suspension of Standing Orders now so that my motion of no confidence can be taken.

Chairman

I have never refused any member of this committee who has asked to put matters on the agenda, including yourself. If you want to bring proof of that here, you can do so and we will discuss the matter. That is a most unfair——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I am proposing a suspension of Standing Orders.

Chairman

I will deal with that in a moment. It is a most unfair allegation to make. As Chairman of this all-party Oireachtas joint committee, at all times I have been fair to every member and all parties on the committee. I totally reject that and your request to suspend Standing Orders.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

The Chairman cannot do that.

Chairman

We will move on.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I propose that this committee now suspend Standing Orders.

Chairman

I reject your proposal.

Deputy Shane McEntee

I second that proposal.

Chairman

There is no basis for that request.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

There is a basis for a vote in Standing Orders.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

I suggest, given that we will bring all of the people concerned before the committee, such as experts on roads, sand and grit and the Emergency Response Co-Ordination Committee CEO, we hear their evidence first and be rational about it. We can then judge if we believe a Minister, county manager, engineer or any other authority was culpable. Without all the facts, it is ridiculous to say the Chairman or any Minister should resign or be fired. We need the facts before we can make a rational decision. I propose we defer any such motion until next week.

Chairman

We cannot take any such motion because there has to be——-

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

A suspension of Standing Orders.

Chairman

——a four-day period for the submission of any such motion.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

A motion could suspend Standing Orders.

Chairman

There is no such——-

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

There is a proposal. One can suspend standing orders for any meeting of any organisation. I propose that.

Chairman

I am not prepared to suspend Standing Orders. You should at least understand the rules and regulations.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I ask you to show me the rules. We can suspend. I ask you to read out a rule for an Oireachtas committee which states we cannot suspend Standing Orders. There is no such rule.

Chairman

I read out a statement.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

There is no such rule.

Chairman

I read out a statement from the Deputy in which he did not follow any basic procedure.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

There is no rule in Standing Orders.

Chairman

You are being most unfair to the clerk to this committee——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I am dealing with you. It is nothing to do with our staff.

Chairman

——who responded——-

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

You did it before in regard to Aer Lingus and other issues of urgency. Today we should have been talking about our transport system nearly collapsing and people being abandoned for three weeks. I accept what our colleagues said about mid-December. I propose the suspension of Standing Orders.

Chairman

I do not accept the proposal.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

You have no authority to do that.

Chairman

I will repeat again for Deputy Broughan that——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

You should give me a ruling where I cannot propose the suspension of Standing Orders.

Chairman

The clerk of the committee responded as such when the Deputy's e-mail was received.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Give me a ruling. Tell me the committee rules.

Chairman

I do not have to——-

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Give me the rules of the House.

Chairman

I do not have to——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I propose the suspension of Standing Orders.

Chairman

I do not have to accept that proposal.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I am saying that you have to accept it.

Chairman

I am advised by the clerk——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

It is a proposal.

Chairman

I want to give you the response from the clerk——-

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

No. Forget about responses.

Chairman

——to which you did not respond.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I asked for this meeting.

Chairman

The clerk received your e-mail on Friday afternoon.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I wanted this meeting.

Chairman

The clerk said it was not possible to organise such a meeting for the following Wednesday within the timeframe available——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

You could have organised a meeting on the crisis and you did not.

Chairman

——-and that the agenda for the meeting had already been agreed to.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

It was abandoned. We were to meet——-

Chairman

The clerk said "All I can do is bring your proposal——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

——-Shannon Foynes but it would not come to see you.

Chairman

——to the attention of the committee at the meeting on Wednesday with a view to possibly agreeing an out-of-slot meeting for the following week.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

The main business here was Shannon Foynes.

Chairman

——-I hope you understand". You did not respond.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I propose the suspension of Standing Orders.

Chairman

I am not accepting that.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

You do not have the authority to do that. Can you give me the ruling?

Chairman

I am told by the clerk to the committee that I do not have to suspend Standing Orders. If you want to put a motion——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

No, I want to have a vote.

Chairman

If you want——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I am entitled to call a vote under Standing Orders.

Chairman

If you wish to propose a motion of no confidence in me, you are quite entitled to do that——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

No, I am proposing the suspension of Standing Orders.

Chairman

——but it must be done four days hence.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I am proposing the suspension of Standing Orders.

Chairman

I am not accepting the suspension of Standing Orders——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

You are acting ultra vires.

Chairman

——and we are now going into recess——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

You are acting ultra vires.

Chairman

I have no difficulty in agreeing——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

It is a matter for the Ceann Comhairle.

Chairman

——that you put your proposal——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

You are acting ultra vires.

Chairman

——within the proper four-day period.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

You must accept a motion to suspend Standing Orders.

Chairman

That is what I am advised by the clerk to the committee.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

You must accept this motion.

Chairman

We are now going into recess——

Deputy Shane McEntee

Chairman——

Chairman

We are going into recess in order to call——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

You can have your Fianna Fáil committee——-

Chairman

——the next speaker.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

——with your incompetent Fianna Fáilers.

Chairman

I call Deputy McEntee. It is obvious Deputy Broughan is not serious at all about the issue——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I am dead serious. The people are very angry and you do not give a damn.

Chairman

You are only interested in playing political football.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

You do not give a damn.

Chairman

You are a disgrace, Deputy Broughan.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

You are a disgrace; you always have been.

Chairman

I call Deputy McEntee.

Deputy Shane McEntee

I do not believe we will get any further on this until there is a proper ruling. Everyone must have their facts right on this; we do not want the country saying we cannot even deal with this. If Standing Orders must be suspended to get a ruling on this, we should do it.

Chairman

The ruling is very simple. I am advised that if Deputy Broughan wishes to put down a motion of no confidence——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

No, to suspend Standing Orders.

Chairman

——he must give four days' notice to the clerk to the committee.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I want to put down a motion to suspend Standing Orders.

Chairman

I can reject that motion——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I want to suspend Standing Orders.

Chairman

——and reject that request. That is what I am informed.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Chairman, perhaps you would adjourn the meeting to confirm the regulations.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I agree, Chairman. We should adjourn the meeting so we can get a legal ruling.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Check the rules so there is total clarity.

Chairman

I am advised that I cannot hold a vote today. It is must be a four day——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Then you can suspend Standing Orders today.

Senator John Ellis

No.

Chairman

For what?

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

You clearly can.

Chairman

For what?

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

You have a majority on this committee so you can suspend Standing Orders if you wish.

Senator John Ellis

On a point of order, Chairman, everybody knows that the advice given to you by the clerk is the correct advice. As a former Chairman, I encountered the same situation. The member must give four days' notice. It is the same as if one wishes to call a meeting of a local authority; one must give a certain number of days' notice, other than by agreement. The Chairman was right. Can we proceed and deal with the official business for today?

Chairman

We will suspend now to allow the next group to come before the committee.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Can we get a legal ruling on this?

Chairman

You can if you wish.

Sitting suspended at 5.03 p.m. and resumed at 5.05 p.m.