The next item on the agenda is a discussion with the Irish Airline Pilots Association on the use——
Aircraft Safety: Discussion with IALPA.
Chairman, I do not wish to be disruptive or unhelpful but in view of the fact that there was a proposer and seconder for the proposal that the meeting be adjourned pending clarification of the issues raised with Deputy Broughan, and accepting that we have business on hand, when can this issue be clarified in terms of precedents and so forth?
On a point of order, we should ask the clerk to circulate an outline of the position to the members of the committee and if anybody wishes to raise it at the next meeting, they can do so.
There is more than that involved.
As a point of information, Deputy O'Dowd, Standing Order 30 states that the motion shall be submitted in writing to the clerk not later than 11 a.m. on the fourth day preceding the meeting. The clerk should then circulate the motion to members, drawing attention to the fact that amendments should be transmitted to the clerk in writing not later than 11 a.m. on the second day preceding the meeting. However——
Does that refer to any motion or a motion of no confidence or both?
It applies to any motion.
Fair enough.
However, the Chairman has discretion to permit motions and amendments to be made on shorter notice. I have used my discretion in that regard. If the Deputy had handled the matter properly, I would have had no difficulty in accommodating him, if that was possible. However, Deputy Broughan used a bullying tactic. I will not be bullied by Deputy Broughan at any time.
The next item on the agenda is a discussion with the Irish Airline Pilots Association on the use of lasers on aircraft. I apologise to Captain Donal Daly and Captain Adrian Hinkson for delaying them for so long. I draw their attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members of the committee are reminded of the parliamentary practice that Members of the Houses should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses, or any official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I welcome Captain Donal Daly, the security representative of the safety and technical committee, and Captain Adrian Hinkson, chairman of the safety and technical committee. I invite them to make a short presentation, which will be followed by questions and answers.
Captain Adrian Hinkson
Good afternoon. I am the director of the safety and technical committee of the Irish Airline Pilots Association. I am accompanied by Captain Donal Daly, the security representative. On behalf of the Irish Airline Pilots Association, we thank the committee for inviting us to make this presentation. We wish to maintain communication with the committee on this and many other matters.
In the past few years the number of laser incidents in Irish air space has increased. These incidents pose a serious threat to the safe conduct of flights within Irish air space. The purpose of this presentation is to emphasise the dangers of these attacks to flight crew, passengers and aircraft; to demonstrate the scale of the problem; to examine what other countries are doing to combat the threat; and to present a brief overview of how the threat is being combatted in Ireland. Finally, we hope to convince the committee that Irish legislation must be updated. We believe the Garda should be given more powers to deal with the threat. Despite the enormous effort of the gardaí working on the ground and working with the Garda air support unit to catch the people responsible for these attacks, no case has come before the courts. Other countries have updated or are in the process of updating their legislation. We hope our presentation will convince the committee that Ireland must do the same.
I thank the committee for its interest and attention. Captain Daly will make the presentation.
Captain Donal Daly
I thank the Chairman and members of committee for inviting us. We hope we will keep it interested in this problem. Many members may believe this problem of lasers being pointed at aircraft pales in significance to what the transport system has had to deal with over recent weeks and what I would describe as probably the worst winter I have seen in my 12 years of flying. While the snow and ice have disrupted much of the transport system, this problem has been disrupting air travel and aircraft landing at Irish airports for the past year. It probably has not come to the fore in the media but it is a growing problem.
I will take members through a short powerpoint presentation, which contains some videos. They are fairly short videos and are generally news reports but they give a good idea of this problem. People say a picture paints 1,000 words, so I hope they will show the problems with which we must deal.
The purpose of this presentation is to highlight the dangers these hand-held lasers pose to pilots and passengers. We will examine the scale of the problem, see how other countries are addressing the threat and show what is being done in Ireland. As Captain Adrian Hinkson said, we hope to convince the committee to use its influence to try to get the legislation changed because people are not being prosecuted. The main culprits are generally juveniles or people who do not know any better. They are pointing lasers at aircraft and they need to be educated.
However, there is a criminal element using lasers to disrupt the work of the Garda air support unit. They do so by pointing the lasers at passenger aircraft landing at Dublin Airport. They know the Garda air support unit will go out to try to find them.
Where do they get the lasers?
Captain Donal Daly
They buy them off the Internet. They are also being sold around town. I do not want to name any shops but they can be bought for as little as €90.
The first video I will show members is from a documentary done in the UK following the work of the police air support unit. In this clip, members will see footage from inside the helicopter and they will get an idea of what it is like to be hit by a laser in the air. This video probably looks innocuous but members will see in the following video just how powerful these lasers are.
The joint committee viewed an audio-visual presentation.
Captain Donal Daly
Members will have heard the pilot state green lasers seem more powerful. I have been hit by one of these on several occasions and I am seeing an eye specialist. She stated that the photoreceptors in one's eye are more responsive to green light during the day-time but when one is hit by one of these green lasers at night-time, it is like being hit by a green camera flash and one is left with an after-image for a few seconds.
The next video is from a news report from New Zealand and it was in response to the Australian authorities' banning these hand-held lasers after a serious incident at Sydney Airport. That airport was closed down for a while because there was a co-ordinated attack on passenger aircraft landing there. This video is quite good in showing how easy it is for people with these hand-held lasers to target aircraft. When I first experienced it, I could not understand how well these lasers could be targeted. When members see this video, it will explain a great deal to them.
The joint committee viewed an audio-visual presentation.
Captain Donal Daly
There are legitimate users of lasers, such as Astronomy Ireland which does very good classes. Those people are responsible and we do not want to see restrictions being placed on them. However, there is a criminal element. I hope those videos showed members just how powerful these lasers are.
I will now talk about the classification of lasers because it is important if drafting legislation to understand the different classes. The FDA in America has four classes of lasers. If one has a laptop or a CD player, one will see a yellow sticker underneath it. Lasers are classified by the wavelength and maximum output power and are divided into four classes. I could go into the scientific detail but I will not bore the committee with that.
Members should think of a class 1 laser as being the least powerful and a class 4 one as being the most powerful. An example of a class 4 laser is the type of laser used by surgeons to remove cataracts or the type used to remove a tattoo. Hand-held lasers started out being red and people used them in presentations. Captain Adrian Hinkson and I are instructors and we used them as well and they were not very powerful. They were classified originally as class 1 or class 2 lasers, which had no real medical effects.
However, in recent years companies in America have got the newer diodes, which are very small and require less power, and have made lasers more powerful by marrying them with these lithium batteries which I am sure members have seen. Like me, members have probably not paid too much attention to them but they are three times as powerful as normal alkaline batteries. That has enabled these companies to create hand-held lasers. Hand-held lasers have now moved from class 1 to class 4.
I will give members an idea of what these lasers can do. All one needs to do is look at the warning labels on them. For class 3 laser use, it states laser radiation — avoid exposure to the beam. For class 4 laser use, it states avoid eye or skin exposure to direct or scattered radiation. At a minimum class 3 lasers are being pointed at aircraft. In the past year, class 4 lasers have become available, although they are very expensive. If one wanted to buy a class 4 laser on the Internet, it would cost more than $1,000. I bring it to the committee's attention that hand-held class 3 lasers used to be that expensive but one can now buy them for $90.
The class 3 laser included in my presentation is what a laser used to look like. As the committee can see, it is quite large. It is not very portable and there is a cable coming out of the back to a transformer. It has been transformed into the class 4 laser which is being sold on the Internet. If it is held close enough, it will burn one's skin or damage one's eye.
People say lasers are not offensive weapons. Companies are selling them as such. At the top of the picture included in my presentation one can just make out the scalloped edges at the top of the hand-held laser. The company which sells it likes to point out that one can blind someone with a laser and then hit him or her on the head with the top of the laser. That is how lasers are being marketed, as weapons.
A slide included in my presentation shows the warning given: "Avoid scattered radiation". In the case of class 3 lasers, scattered radiation is what we are being hit by in the cockpit. If class 4 lasers are placed on the market and used against aircraft, they will cause damage to eyes. It is worth noting that the United Kingdom has banned their importation without a licence.
The diagram included in in my presentation is taken from the Federal Aviation Administration in the United States where this problem started. It carried out a study in 2004 and this is what it came up with. It was wondering just how dangerous lasers were to aircraft on approach. One can see a photograph taken from inside the cockpit. One cannot make them out too well but one can see the approach lights to the runway. It is not a very good picture. In the other picture one can see that once one is close to the ground the laser light saturates the windscreen and one can no longer see the runway. That is why aircraft have missed their approaches and not been able to land.
On the distances involved, lasers can reach an aircraft up to 11,700 ft. We certainly have experience of this, especially in climbing from London. There are certain villages which for some reason are hotspots for the users of these lasers.
A slide included in my presentation deals with the safety implications. Starting from the bottom, one can see that up to 52 ft. there is a hazard that one can damage one's eye. Up to 260 ft. there is a danger of flash blindness. As I stated, this study was conducted in 2004. From personal experience, as one who has been hit by one of these lasers above 2,000 ft., it is like a camera flash going off in one's face. Since the study was completed, lasers have become more powerful.
On possible health effects, between 260 ft. and 11,000 ft., generally the problem is glare, dazzle or disruption to approach. The study states that up to 260 ft. there is a danger of flash blindness and up to 52 ft. there is the hazard that one can damage one's eyes. With class 3 lasers, however, there is little chance of this occurring. Due to the perimeter around an airport users are more than 52 ft. away from the cockpit. However, the point we will make is that while we are dealing with the effects on aviation, the problem has spread to the point where people point lasers at bus drivers and others on the roads.
The next slide defines "glare" or "dazzle". A scattered laser light obscures an image, is exacerbated by dirty or wet windscreens and is much more severe at night. One's night vision will be degraded. What we are really worried about is that class 4 laser products are becoming widespread as the scattered laser light will cause damage. As I explained with regard to flash blindness, it is like a camera flash going off in the cockpit. What happens is that there is an after-image for between one second and several minutes. When one considers that from 2,000 ft. it takes less than two minutes to land, sometimes one is left with no option but not to land and go around. Recovery from flash blindness is obviously dependent on the brightness of and the length of exposure to the laser. The severity of the effects can vary between individuals.
The presentation refers to the injuries that can be caused by lasers. As I stated, with class 3 lasers, this is unlikely to happen but if class 4 lasers are placed on the market, I do not know what will happen.
On the scale of the problem, it took off — if the committee will excuse the pun — in the past year and a half in Ireland. It has been a problem since 2004 in the United States which has the advantage that the authorities there are able to compile all reports through one central agency, the FAA, which can provide good statistics and reports. There are what are known as the joint aviation authorities in Europe. There is the Irish Aviation Authority, the Civil Aviation Authority in the United Kingdom and the French aviation authority. There is no centralised system to compile reports to enable people such as the members of this committee who push legislation to examine the scale of the problem. That is one of the issues. When I was preparing this presentation, it was difficult just to compile some statistics.
A slide included in my presentation is taken from the United Kingdom Flight Safety Committee which compiled the number of instances involving lasers in the United Kingdom and Ireland between 2004 and 2008. As one can see, it was not a problem before 2008 but then the problem exploded. Yesterday the United Kingdom issued statistics. In 2009 there were 737 such instances. If one compares that figure with the one included in the slide, one can see how big the problem is becoming. Yesterday the United Kingdom changed its law in this regard.
The following are the statistics from Ireland. One Irish airline reported that there had been 29 instances in Dublin alone. One should bear in mind that many such instances go unreported for various reasons. Some pilots state nothing ever happens to the guys involved. One is conscious of the fact that when one makes such a report, air traffic control gets on to the Garda. Bringing out the Garda air support unit involves a great deal of expense and trouble when it has other matters to attend to. The unit was called out on 39 occasions by air traffic control last year, typically in response to a number of aircraft reporting that they were being illuminated by a laser. From speaking to the guys in the control tower, they seem to think there would need to be approximately three or four instances before they could justify calling out the Garda helicopter. Multiply four by 39 and one sees the scale of the problem in Dublin alone. From anecdotal evidence, the Garda helicopter is being targeted on a weekly basis.
How is Captain Daly aware of this?
Captain Donal Daly
From speaking to guys in the Garda air support unit.
Surely if there are such instances, they should be properly recorded.
Captain Donal Daly
They are recorded under the mandatory occurrence recording system. Perhaps the point I was trying to highlight from an airliner's point of view is that after one lands, one must make a report. The problem we find is that one makes report after report and then asks oneself: why am I doing this because nothing seems to be happening?
What about the IAA? Does it have responsibility?
Captain Donal Daly
It does. In fairness, it compiles the reports. I cannot comment for it, but it is my belief different airlines have different reporting systems. Some have computerised reporting systems, while others have paper reporting systems. The IAA, on its website, is asking for submissions on how reports can be compiled under one system in order that it can get a proper handle on——
That would mean there would be an accountable uniform reporting system.
Captain Donal Daly
Exactly. This is a very important point with regard to combating this threat. One must understand the problem before one starts preparing legislation to combat it. While all the different agencies around Europe are in contact with each other, there does not appear to be a comprehensive system in place to co-ordinate the various reports.
I understand the class 4 lasers are banned, is that correct?
Captain Donal Daly
They are banned from importation into the UK without a licence.
Is the class 4 laser banned in the United States? It seems extraordinary that it is made in the United States but not banned there.
Captain Donal Daly
I cannot answer that as I am not too sure whether it is. I have been looking at the legislation on the issue of lasers, but the legislation is different in different states. They have tried to deal with the issue in the United States. A Republican Senator tried to introduce legislation and the details of this are in a hand-out I have provided. That legislation was agreed in committee and almost came to be signed by former President Bush. However, it was not signed and I understand that any Bills not signed into law by the end of the presidential term lapse. There were two attempts to introduce the Bill, but for some reason it failed. As a result, each individual state had to introduce its own legislation to combat the threat. Therefore, I cannot give committee members definite details about the situation.
Can a laser be deflected? If, for example, it was pointing at point "A", could it be deflected? Could an aircraft deflect it?
Captain Donal Daly
How does the Deputy mean?
If lasers are directed at aircraft, does the aircraft have a system that can bounce it off to somewhere else?
Captain Donal Daly
I have not heard of anything like that.
Captain Adrian Hinkson
Most approaches are visual in the final stage, so it is difficult to envisage a technical system that would deflect lasers at that stage.
I accept approaches are visual and pilots must look through their windscreens. I do not have a clue about what is involved with lasers, but they obviously penetrate materials such as screens. If terrorists acquired a few hundred of these lasers, they could take out half of the aircraft in three or four cities in a night.
Captain Adrian Hinkson
This is the problem.
Have any pilots been injured yet?
Captain Donal Daly
Yes, I was brought to hospital after one experience, but thankfully there was nothing wrong, although my eye was sore for several days afterwards.
Captain Adrian Hinkson
A pilot was hospitalised in Texas about two and a half years ago, but he was later discharged. As far as I am aware, nobody has been documented as having suffered permanent damage as a result.
Has any crash occurred as a result of this?
Captain Adrian Hinkson
No, but that could be the ultimate problem.
Captain Donal Daly
Any accident or airline crash is not down to one thing, but to a combination of factors. Laser interference will be a contributory factor in an incident at some stage.
Captain Adrian Hinkson
If a laser attack was combined with a situation where one pilot was already compromised or incapacitated in terms of ability to operate it would be a significant problem for the second pilot, particularly if it occurred close to the ground.
Would it be possible to wear special glasses that would counteract the effect?
Captain Donal Daly
That is a very good point. The FAA has been looking at that, but it has not come up with anything yet. The glasses it has been considering are quite dark. There is also the issue of whether pilots would wear the glasses. Pilots coming into Dublin generally try to block the laser beam with a clipboard.
If the pilots had glasses in the cockpit, they could just put them on if they saw a laser beam on the horizon.
Captain Donal Daly
The FAA is considering that, but I do not think it has come up with a specific recommendation yet.
Perhaps Captain Daly should continue with his presentation and tell us what he feels is the best solution.
Captain Donal Daly
I will move on to how other countries combat the threat. I mentioned a serious incident in Sydney's airport in Australia in 2008. I will now show the committee the news report on this incident. After this incident, the Australian authorities banned the lasers. I have included the Australian legislation in my submission. That report mentioned mapping technology. Mapping technology is used in court cases because the evidence must be exact with regard to who was where and what he or she was doing. The UK has been working on mapping technology that will make evidence for court more watertight. However, I cannot provide any details on that as I have not seen it.
Other countries generally tackle the problem by improving legislation to control the use and possession of lasers. The UK authorities changed the law in this regard yesterday. Other authorities also educate the public on the dangers of pointing lasers at aircraft. This is one of the main reasons we are here today. Hopefully news reporters here will put the word out that lasers should not be pointed at aircraft. There is a juvenile element involved and some people do not even think about what they are doing. The best way to deal with these people is to educate them on the issues. We should also encourage better reporting from pilots. This is our job and the job of the Irish Aviation Authority. The authority must also put a system in place to compile all the reports and gather proper statistics. The IAA must develop procedures to be followed by flight crews in the event of laser attacks. Currently there are no procedures in place, whereas the whole concept of flight safety is based on what we call standard operating procedures. We have procedures with regard to matters such as what to do in the event of an engine failure or cabin depressurisation and so on. Therefore, we need a proper scientific study carried out so that flight crews can be told what to do in the event of a laser attack.
Committee members should understand that because of competition in the airline sector, aircraft now only carry the legal minimum of fuel for a flight to a destination, one missed approach, travel to an alternate airport and holding for 30 minutes. This is generally adequate. However, it might not be adequate in the type of weather conditions we have had in recent weeks. Airlines have no problem with us carrying extra fuel, but we must be able to provide an explanation for the need for it. There is an economic onus on pilots not to carry too much fuel. Laser attacks generally take place on a clear night when there is good weather and hardly a cloud in the sky. Therefore, pilots are probably on minimum fuel when they reach the airport. If a pilot has to do a go around as a result of an attack and then make another approach and then suffers another laser attack on approach, he or she will then have less fuel than he or she needs to get to the alternate airport and land. It must also be borne in mind that to save fuel, many airlines use alternate airports close to destination airports. The alternate airport for Dublin might be Baldonnel, but the lasers have a range of three miles. Therefore, if the aircraft had to go further it could be in a difficult situation with regard to fuel.
With regard to what we are doing in Ireland to combat laser attack, from the operational standpoint the response from the authorities has been excellent. We would like to compliment the Garda air support unit and the Garda Síochána for searching for and catching some of the culprits. Air traffic control also provides good warnings to pilots. However, our legislation must be updated and the Garda must be given the powers required to deal with the threat. If, for example, gardaí are informed somebody is driving an untaxed car, they can stop the car and, under section 41 of the Road Traffic Act, impound the car. Also, if they are informed people have drugs on their person, they can use section 23 of the Misuse of Drugs Act to stop the persons and search them. However, if they are told somebody has pointed a laser at an aircraft, they do not know what to do.
Is there not general legislation about endangering people?
Captain Donal Daly
Yes, but the Garda say it cannot use legislation such as the Misuse of Drugs Act to stop somebody and search for a laser. It has been set out in the courts that the legislation can only be used to conduct a drugs search. If, for example, a garda stops somebody to conduct a drugs search and finds a laser on the person, the legislation cannot be invoked. Legislation must be provided that will allow gardaí to stop and search people. This is what the Australian authorities introduced after the attack in Sydney Airport.
Captain Adrian Hinkson
We feel that the lack of prosecutions probably points to a weakness in the legislation. It is probably difficult to make a case under the offence that is being used at the moment.
Have the witnesses received any advice from the DPP? Has the DPP reported back on why cases were not brought?
Captain Donal Daly
No. The DPP does not have to give such a report. If we were to contact the staff of the DPP, they would remind us that they do not discuss individual cases. We are relying on the members of this committee and the officials in the Department to ascertain why cases are not being brought. It is interesting that police forces in the UK did not have much success when they used the same law under which the Garda is trying to prosecute people.
Captain Adrian Hinkson
It is fair to point out that there has been a fair degree of co-operation between the Irish Aviation Authority and the Garda in this regard. Legislative change will probably be required if they are to make a final push. As the final victims of this form of behaviour, we are here to raise the public profile of it.
I accept that. I raised the matter because if we are to introduce new legislation, we should know what the defects, or problem areas, in the current legislation are.
Captain Donal Daly
I think that is really——
Perhaps the Department of Transport can come up with——
Captain Donal Daly
The committee needs to speak with the Office of the Attorney General. I cannot really say why no cases have been brought to court.
There is no specific legislation at present to prohibit an attack on an aircraft, which is exactly what this is.
Captain Donal Daly
Exactly.
Captain Adrian Hinkson
The offence that is being used is a very general one.
Captain Donal Daly
Section 13 of the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997, which relates to endangerment, is being used. We have compiled a report on the legislation being used in Ireland, Britain, the US and Australia. I ask the members of the committee to study the document when they get a chance. As I said earlier, not one case has been brought before the courts, despite all the resources that have been used to try to catch these people. Members will have an idea of how much it costs to run the Garda helicopter for an hour, or to send various files to the DPP. I suggest that officials from the Department should sit down with their counterparts in the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Office of the Attorney General to try to work out what the problem is.
I assume these lasers could also be used to target heavy goods vehicles on motorways.
Captain Donal Daly
That is a very good point. It is the final point we had intended to make. This problem has spread from its origins in the aviation sector in the United States. The various states introduced their own legislation when people started to point lasers at police officers. The police authorities made it clear that legislation was needed to stop people from pointing lasers at aircraft pilots, drivers on motorways and police officers. When a footballer was taking a penalty during a recent match in Italy, one of the spectators shone a light in his eyes. That is the latest thing I have seen. The members of the committee should bear such incidents in mind when they speak about this issue. This is not just an aviation problem — it is spreading to different areas as well. It would be great if legislation that considers everything that is going on were to be formulated. If members have any questions about our presentation, we will be happy to answer them.
Captain Daly mentioned that these lasers have been banned in Australia. Is he suggesting that they should be banned here? Can Captain Daly give us the best example of the legislation that has been introduced in other countries? Would he recommend that such legislation should be used as a model for legislation in Ireland? We are prepared to recommend that the possibility of introducing legislation should be considered by the Minister. The committee might invite the Minister to bring some proposals before it.
Captain Donal Daly
Personally, I believe the Australian legislation represents the best way to go. It seems to treat laser pointers in the same way that we treat knives under our Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990. The Australian legislation is quite good in so far as it accepts that certain people, such as astronomy teachers, have a genuine reason to own laser pointers. It allows such people to continue to own lasers as long as they use them responsibly. It states:
A person must not, without reasonable excuse (proof of which lies on the person):
(a) have in his or her custody a laser pointer in a public place, or
(b) use a laser pointer in a public place.
The Australian legislation also provides:
A police officer may request a person who is in a public place to submit to a frisk search if the police officer suspects on reasonable grounds that the person has a laser pointer in his or her custody.
Does a person need a licence to possess a laser pointer in Australia?
Captain Donal Daly
I am not sure about that.
There is a difference between banning the sale of something and banning its use. The widespread use of the Internet makes it difficult to ban the sale of something. I estimate that nine out of ten times, the authorities would not know if someone imported a laser from China or Japan, for example.
The Australian legislation seems to require people to keep on their person written proof that they are using these lasers legitimately.
Captain Adrian Hinkson
It does not seem to be a licensing issue. It seems to hinge on the requirement on people to prove they have a reasonable reason for possessing this equipment.
If one needs a gun licence, for example, one has to go the Garda authorities. One has to seek permission if one wishes to import a firearm.
Captain Adrian Hinkson
The committee could examine that possibility in this context. I do not know. We are not the legislative experts. It might be difficult to achieve. It is obvious that the unlicensed possession of a firearm is an offence. The Australian legislation seems to relate to the possession of this equipment in an inappropriate circumstance.
Captain Donal Daly
Section 9 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990, which relates to the possession of knives, states:
Where a person, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the onus of proving which shall lie on him), has with him in any public place—
(a) any flick-knife, or
(b) any other article whatsoever made or adapted for use for causing injury to or incapacitating a person,
he shall be guilty of an offence.
One might suggest that lasers are covered by subsection (b), but I do not think they are.
The witnesses have suggested that the Australian legislation is the most appropriate template for us to adopt. We will ask the Department to examine that possibility. Captain Daly mentioned that legislation in this area was recently introduced in Britain.
Captain Donal Daly
The British legislation might fall down because——
We do not need to go into the detail of the British legislation. We have gone way over time, unfortunately. We will ask the Department to examine it. Do the delegates believe it would be realistic to try to ban laser pointers?
Captain Donal Daly
I do not think it is a realistic possibility. The best thing to do would be to amend the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990 to control their use.
I thank the witnesses for bringing this important issue to the attention of the committee.
We welcome their presentation.
The Garda helicopter deals with incidents of this nature. I suggest there is also a role for Garda patrol cars. It is obvious that these lasers are used at airports, although we are also talking about the pointing of lasers at trucks on motorways. The known use of lasers around Dublin Airport is growing. This committee could ask the Garda authorities at Dublin Airport, or at Coolock Garda station, to patrol the airport to find those who point lasers at aircraft. It would be important to establish whether the people in question are subversives, or merely kids trying out their new toys.
Captain Adrian Hinkson
The Deputy will find that there is already a reasonable level of co-operation in this respect. When those working on an aircraft report to the tower that they are experiencing problems of this nature, the staff in the tower immediately alert the Garda.
The helicopter then comes out.
Captain Adrian Hinkson
Yes.
I suggest that in the course of their routine activities, gardaí in squad cars should be asked to drive around the perimeter of the airport to look for the potential use of lasers.
The use of lasers should be seen as a serious issue. The status of such activity should be raised in terms of its severity. A kid who occasionally points a laser at an airplane should know that it is a really serious thing to do. If one is not officially authorised to use a laser pointer, or if one does not have a reasonable reason for doing so, the use of a laser pointer should have severe repercussions.
The best thing we can do is to pass on the delegation's presentation to the Department, the Irish Aviation Authority and the Garda. We will ask all three bodies to respond to the committee with proposals for dealing with this important issue.
I thank the delegates for their very comprehensive presentation. I do not doubt that this very dangerous activity should be stopped. Our guests have our full support in trying to ensure that action is taken. As soon as we get responses from the Department, the Garda and the Irish Aviation Authority, we will invite the delegates back to this forum to consider them. We will refer to the Australian legislation as an example of what might be considered. I agree that we should introduce legislation to make this activity a very serious offence.
Captain Donal Daly
Thank you. While we probably exceeded the time allowed, we really appreciate that the members took the time to hear our submission.