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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Dec 2010

Road Network: Discussion with National Roads Authority

We will now move on to our discussion with members of the National Roads Authority. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside of the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Under section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, visitors are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. The witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given, and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I am sure that of all those we meet here, there is little need to give that warning to the delegates from the NRA.

I welcome Mr. Fred Barry, chief executive officer, Mr. Michael Egan head of corporate affairs and professional servicesand Mr. Seán O'Neill. I propose we begin with a short presentation, followed by a question and answer session. A number of members have indicated they wish to be finished by 5.30 p.m. We will try to ensure we conclude by then.

Mr. Fred Barry

We thank the Chairman and committee members for the invitation to appear before the committee. We have been asked to respond to a number of questions and I will begin with the question raised by Deputy Timmins. He asked about the policy towards industrial development off the N11 and N81, in light of the fact that it appears that County Wicklow will become an industrial wasteland if the NRA persists with its current policy, which appears to place a requirement on those with proposals for employment development to upgrade the road network. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government states in its guidelines for planning authorities, "Spatial Planning & National Roads", that "Under these guidelines, planning authorities are required to implement the provision of the planning legislation in relation to the payment of financial contributions by developers towards the cost of providing public infrastructure ...". The guidelines and policy in question are issued by the Department and represent Government policy rather than NRA policy.

Deputy Costello asked about public private partnerships entered into by the NRA for motorway construction and the concessions agreed for the operation of motorways, including toll roads. The NRA has entered the following public private partnerships and agreed concessions for roads: the M1 Dundalk western bypass, the M3 Clonee to Kells, the M4 Kilcock to Kinnegad, the M6 Galway to Ballinasloe, the M7-M8 Portlaoise to Cullahill-Castletown, the N7 Limerick southern ring road phase 2, the M8 Fermoy bypass, the N25 Waterford city bypass, and the M50 upgrade phase 2. The Comptroller and Auditor General issued a report on the financial implications of these agreements in his annual report on the accounts of the public service for 2008, together with some concession detail which may be of interest.

Three other public private partnerships are at tender: the N11 Arklow to Rathnew, together with the N7 Newlands Cross junction, the M17-M18 Gort to Tuam, and the M11-N25 Enniscorthy and New Ross bypasses. As noted by the Government in the context of the four year plan, the construction of the Gort to Tuam and Arklow to Rathnew schemes is expected to start in 2011.

Deputy Costello also asked about the provision of motorway stops. National policy, as set out in the spatial planning for national roads guidelines mentioned previously, is that the introduction of long sections of motorways and dual carriageways warrant the provision of service areas for road users who wish to rest during longer journeys and-or to avail of fuel, toilet and food facilities. Committee members may recall passing an amendment to the Roads Act in 2007 which enabled the NRA to become directly involved in securing online service area facilities. Since then, planning approval has been received for the following online service areas: the M1 at Lusk, the M1 at Castlebellingham, the M4 at Kinnegad, the M6 at Athlone, the M8 at Cashel, the M9 at Kilcullen, and the M11 at Gorey. One further application, on the Cork to Limerick M20, is being considered by An Bord Pleanála at present, while an application to develop a service area at the junction of the M17-M18-M6 was rejected by An Bord Pleanála.

Service areas are open at three of the locations, two on the M1 and one on the M4 at Kinnegad. Construction of a service area on the M11 at Gorey is at tender, and, as committee members may have noted in the Government's four year plan, we are hoping to seek expressions of interest to develop the service stations at Athlone, Cashel, and Kilcullen. There are other potential sites that we will consider bringing forward depending on the level of interest shown in the sites already approved.

Deputy McHugh asked about the accountability of the NRA to elected representatives. Under the Roads Act, the NRA is subject to the direction of the Minister for Transport. The Minister appoints the chairman and members of the authority, makes annual grants of such amounts as may be sanctioned by the Minister for Finance and has powers to issue guidelines and direction in relation to any functions assigned to the NRA under the Roads Act.

Deputy McHugh also asked about the provision of turning lanes as safety provisions on NRA routes, including safety requirements on the N56. The NRA's design manual for roads and bridges sets out that the provision of a right-turning facility should always be considered where the minor road flow exceeds an average of 500 vehicles both ways each day over a year, a right turning collision problem is evident, or vehicles waiting on the major road to turn right inhibit the through flow and create a hazard. We carry out an annual review of the collision records collected by the Garda Síochána and the Road Safety Authority. It is also open to local authorities to bring to our attention a requirement for right-turning lanes if they are aware of a hazardous situation. Where there is a pattern of right-turning collisions, the local authority concerned examines the possibility of creating a right-turn lane to help solve this problem. This year, I understand that four right-turn lanes were provided, with the agreement of the authority, on the N56 at Ballynamore school, Drumbeagh, Faugher national school and Turris Hill.

Deputy McHugh also asked about safety auditing on NRA routes. Road safety audits are mandatory for any permanent change to the layout of a national road. The audits are carried out by suitably experienced, approved engineers who are independent of the scheme design team in accordance with the road safety audit standards which are part of the design manual for roads and bridges.

I have questions about a number of areas and I will try to be concise. First, I must ask about the NRA's role in response to the current extremely cold weather. What is the tonnage of salt currently in storage in the country awaiting use on the primary routes for which the NRA has responsibility? What is the tonnage of salt spread out daily in the current conditions and how is the amount of salt available in storage in terms of daily use calculated? Is more salt on the way and, if so, when is it likely to arrive to complement existing stocks? Which roads are the responsibility of the NRA? My understanding is that the NRA only has responsibility for primary routes that were identified during the big freeze of last January. If this is the case, are there other stocks of salt in the country to deal with secondary roads and primary routes not targeted from last January? It is a serious and growing problem in rural Ireland where people are isolated because roads are impassable. There are also serious animal husbandry issues and issues of access to feeding stock. I ask for clarification on those points. I have asked the Minister those questions and he has not had the answers.

Concerns were expressed a few weeks ago that the NRA had signed contracts with the private sector which have resulted in the NRA having to make penalty payments - I am not sure of the correct term - because traffic numbers have not met the targets, especially on the M3 and in the Limerick tunnel. If traffic levels remain at the current level over the lifetime of the public private partnership contracts, what will be the level of penalty? Is the NRA satisfied there is an appropriate risk share between the State and the private contractors?

I have strong opinions about the issue of motorway stops because I drive on the Cork-Dublin road every week, late at night and early in the morning. It is a very poor reflection on the NRA that no motorway stops were put in place along with the construction of motorways. I can understand there are planning problems, delays and objections and financial factors but all these factors are part of the planning of a motorway in any country. The notion that one would drive between Ireland's first and second cities with no motorway stops except for driving off the motorway into a nearby town such as Cashel, Urlingford or Johnstown is not good enough. Even though the motorway infrastructure is fantastic, including the change from what it was like ten years ago, it is unacceptable not to have service stations. We are playing catch-up and the situation is quite dangerous, in my view. I often leave Cork at 10 p.m. and I arrive in Dublin at about 1 a.m., but there is nowhere to stop at that time of night until reaching the outskirts of Dublin or at least the Naas dual carriageway. I do not think this is satisfactory. I ask the NRA for a timeframe for when motorway stops are likely to be available on the Cork-Dublin road, either on the Cashel site or somewhere else, and whether the NRA is changing the criteria for putting motorway stops in place to encourage the private sector to develop the facilities.

I have a question about the future of the NRA. The motorway network from Dublin to the other major urban areas such as Waterford, Cork, Limerick, Galway and, in time, to Derry, is nearing completion. What will be the NRA's role next year and in following years? It has a big infrastructure of offices and staff, but if motorways are not being built and without the capital to build the remaining roads that are needed, is it appropriate for the NRA to remain as large as it is and, if so, what functions will it be performing?

I thank Mr. Egan and Mr. Barry for attending and answering our questions. I wish to make a remark on the issue of salt. I do not know whether the NRA is also responsible for sand. I understand it had originally put out a contract for 50,000 tonnes of salt for this side of Christmas and 30,000 tonnes for January. From reports it seems that those 50,000 tonnes have already been distributed and used. Does that mean that we will have no salt in storage for the month of December to deal with wintery conditions if we have a continuation of the present spell of bad weather? According to Met Éireann the next week will be nearly as bad as the week we have just had. Is the NRA able to source stocks of salt at short notice so that the local authorities have sufficient supplies? We already know that local authorities are finding it very difficult and Dublin City Council has indicated it is already rationing its supply of salt. Have we miscalculated in the sense that obviously the NRA did not expect weather conditions to be as bad as they are this early in the year? Nevertheless will we find ourselves in just as difficult a situation as we did last winter?

What is the extent of the NRA's dry storage and de-icing salt facilities? Are they centralised in one big depot or decentralised in every local authority area? Are they accessible in this sort of weather in all the areas throughout the country? What further steps has it taken in providing grit spreaders, snowploughs and so on? What overall adverse weather-fighting measures has it put in place in addition to the commitment to providing the storage of salt? How is the NRA assisting local authorities? At Monday night's Dublin City Council meeting on its budget, the manager stated he had got no additional central government funding to assist in dealing with adverse weather conditions. Is the NRA providing a sum of money and, if so, how is it being channelled? Is it coming through the NTA, directly from the Department or has the NRA resources of its own that can assist the local authorities in this respect?

The NRA has done a tremendous amount of work on roads in a relatively short space of time, on which I congratulate it. The witnesses have outlined the areas where the work was done by public private partnerships, for which I am grateful. They did not indicate whether any European money went into those projects. Taking all the public private partnership projects together, what is the State's total payment to date on matters such as infrastructural preparation and compulsory purchase? What is the total State commitment into the future? What is done on an annual basis on the various 30 to 45-year PPP projects? What is the private partners' input at the beginning and at various subsequent stages? Are all of these toll roads? What is the State's and the private partners' return from those tolls on an annual basis? The M50 is a separate matter and I ask the witnesses to give us the figures on that in respect of the public-private partnership. We want to establish what sort of deal this is in the round and how it will affect the State over the years. Regarding penalty clauses, will the private sector always win? If the projected numbers on the toll road fail to turn up, does the State pick up the tab? What is the formula for calculating increases and decreases in the level of commuter traffic? What impact has the recession had on the balance of the public private partnership?

I cannot understand why service areas were not factored into the tendering process for the motorways. How could we have motorways without service areas? It is a fundamental part of motorways throughout the Continent and elsewhere and should have been an integral part of the process. I know Mr. Barry stated that amending legislation was introduced. However, I do not know why amending legislation would be required in the overall project, which was to build a road of which service areas should form part. It is the case that the service part of it is entirely private? I understand Apple Green has got the contract. Has the same company got the contracts for all the service areas Mr. Barry mentioned?

Mr. Barry spoke about the NRA's relationship with the Minister but made no reference to its relationship with the NTA. What is that relationship at present and what is it to be in the future? What are the NRA's plans for the very substantial Dublin to Derry motorway project? Is it going ahead? What is the status of the planning and what are our commitments in that regard?

My final question is on a piece of housekeeping. Whenever we table parliamentary questions to the Minister for Transport relating to issues which may be partly or entirely the responsibility of an agency - the NRA would be one of the major agencies - everything has to be done on the double. We have to put it to the Minister who will claim that it is not his responsibility. Can we introduce a mechanism whereby when we table such a question to the Minister there will be some arrangement between the NRA and the Minister so that the Minister can forward the question to the NRA for answer without us having to formulate it a second time?

I thank the Chairman for forwarding my questions to the NRA and thank its representatives for their reply. Mr. Barry mentioned that the policy on spatial planning and national roads is set by the Government as opposed to the NRA. It would strike me that that policy was drawn up by the NRA for the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I ask him to correct me if I am wrong and point me to a person in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government who formulated the policy. I believe that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government got its policy from the NRA.

Wicklow has the smallest proportion of people working in the county in the greater Dublin area and there is much unsustainable commuting from the county. All of those roads and the junctions on them were built in the past five or six years. They can take the capacity required for employment. According to the National Roads Authority, the junctions on the N11 - there are no junctions on the N81 - are not up to the required standard to permit additional traffic on to it. Planning permission was granted to Ecolo Data Centres, which would provide in the region of 220 jobs and the National Roads Authority objected, at a time when we are looking for employment. That was a wrong decision. It was ill-informed. I am open to correction but the objection was based on the assumption that the capacity of the junctions on the N11 would not be able to cope if all the zoned land in the area of the N11 was developed. This development, and perhaps other future developments, would not result in capacity being reached. The National Roads Authority should at least have let the development go ahead until the capacity was reached. Land for employment is often over-zoned by as much as a third of the actual requirement. That is not unique to Wicklow. I would like a response on that point.

By my reckoning no employer will develop employment land in County Wicklow as long as that policy is in place as they will be hit with additional levies. It is my understanding that the local authority would pay for the upgrade of the local junction but it could not do it unless it places a levy on the developer. What developer would pay for the upgrade of a road in Wicklow when it could go to one of the adjoining counties and not have to pay for an upgrade? The NRA policy, which I argue was drawn up by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, is turning Wicklow into an industrial wasteland. Our junctions were built 25 or 30 years ago and it appears they will not be improved by the National Roads Authority.

It also appears that the National Roads Authority only objects when a development is adjacent to the motorway. For example, Ballymore applied for a development in Greystones. It was a kilometre away from the N11 and would give rise to a lot of additional traffic coming on to the road. The National Roads Authority did not object to it. I do not say it should have had, but it appears to be a contradictory policy as there will still be the same amount of traffic coming onto the road. I would like to get to the bottom of the matter. I urge the National Roads Authority to consider withdrawing its objection. If memory serves me, it objected in the past to a development against Fassaroe which was turned down by An Bord Pleanála.

Could the National Roads Authority confirm that the public private partnership on the N11 is tied in with the Newlands Cross development, that it will go ahead in 2011 and is on target?

Preliminary design work has begun on the N81. What are the chances of the funding being obtained for that project beyond the design stage? I am not technically qualified but my view is that it would have been better if money and energy was spent linking the N81 with the N9 somewhere between Castledermot and Kilcullen. It is a difficult job to develop the N81 due to the topography of the area. It would have been far more beneficial to link the N9 and the N81, as part of that greater orbital route which, please God, will take place some day to link the N11 with the midlands.

An old bugbear of mine is signage. I come from the airport several times a month. I nearly always go astray. The National Roads Authority delegation is tired of hearing about it. All of a sudden I am faced with a sign for Westport. The argument is that the regulation specifies that the end of the road destination must be signposted. When one comes from Dublin and is looking for Wicklow it is disconcerting to see Westport. The regulations must be amended. I understand one cannot put up a sign for a hospital on the main road. As a result, one cannot see Loughlinstown Hospital off the N11. One can argue that these are aspects of the legislation and there is no way around it but the legislation should be changed.

One of our great shortcomings is joined-up thinking. I am speaking with my parochial hat on but what I say could be applicable to any part of the country. On the new N9 I see nothing to indicate to tourists how to get to Glendalough because there is no co-ordination between the relevant local authorities. They drive to Dublin, get onto the M50 and down the N11 instead of going across country, which could be done if there was proper signage. Kildare County Council obviously got its way as there is a sign to Ballitore, the Quaker village, and the local service station, which is admirable in its own way but when I compare that with the lack of signage for Glendalough, one of the most visited places in the country, it makes me think that others are being a little more parochial than me.

Deputy Costello raised the issue of motorway stops. Could the chief executive spell out in more detail what they cost or how they are funded? Perhaps the question has already been asked about whether it is one company that has all the franchises. How does it work? Who are they and where are they based? It may be incorrect but someone told me that the motorway stop in Enfield or Kinnegad seems to be almost adopting a "no Irish need apply" approach. My response was that we are all in the European Union now but I was given the impression that the staff were not from the European Union either. I accept if one is a citizen of the European Union, one cannot discriminate but there is dangerous talk going around. I was not on a winner, so to speak, in attempting to disprove what was said.

I heard what Deputy Coveney said about getting off the motorway at night and not being able to find a petrol station anywhere. I recall a few years ago getting off the motorway in Kildare and I could not find a petrol station. I should have stayed on the motorway as I would have been home sooner and without using as much petrol. A number of petrol stations are near motorways and one does not always have to go into a town. I do not wish to make a plug for any of them as I do not have shares in any petrol stations. There is one near the interchange close to where I live. One just has to come a little way down the road and then go back again. One would have as far to drive into one of the new motorway service stations. In some cases one might need the official new state-of-the-art motorway stops but on other occasions a map outlining all-night service stations would suffice and might save us a fortune. There are places where they are needed and places where they are not needed, where one does not have to go into a town or urban area.

I do not have a problem with toll roads provided they are announced before a road is built, such as with the tunnel or the M50. I do have a problem with one coming along afterwards telling people they must have multiple tolls getting on and off the M50. What is the status of that suggestion? Whose great idea is it? I find it unacceptable. If it is a case of raising revenue it can be done through motor tax or put on petrol. It is bad publicity for us to be trying to do that after the event. I do not know whether it was an idea of the National Roads Authority or if it was some bright spark in the local authority or a Minister. Whoever the hell came up with it, it is a stupid idea. I hope it is not being considered for introduction in the next four or five months. Whose idea is it and what is its status?

I do not wish to refer to issues that have already been covered. Who decides on the gritting of the roads? I would like that to be spelled out. There is much confusion on who is making the decisions. Councils are being told one thing at meetings. Many roads are being left out that should be included and others are included that might not be as important. In fairness, the main roads that are being gritted are being done well. It is the ones that are not being done that present difficulties with access. Many busy roads need attention. I would like to be able to clarify the matter for my constituents.

I live very near Cashel. I am well informed and know what is the up-to-date position. I understand the National Roads Authority has purchased sites for service stations only two miles from where a private service station is being developed. Is this a good use of public funds? Does the NRA intend to proceed with plans to develop service stations on these sites? I expect the private service station to open by June 2011, thus resolving the problem for people travelling between Cork and Dublin who do not have access to a motorway service station. It appears the NRA proposes to proceed with its plans for service stations at Cashel. I ask for clarification.

What is the position regarding the Limerick to Waterford route? The council has a preferred location and its officials are active on the ground, having visited many landowners. Tipperary Town has been a traffic bottleneck for years and there are also traffic problems in Carrick-on-Suir. Will the new road proceed despite the current economic difficulties? Could the bypasses of Tipperary Town and Carrick-on-Suir be completed as distinct projects, with the Limerick-Waterford route being completed over the long term? What is the current position?

I thank the National Roads Authority for funding it announced recently in respect of the N52 and N51 in County Meath. Major and welcome improvements will be made to the road surface, which will make a significant difference for road users.

The proposed Slane bypass is listed as a high priority in the national recovery plan. What are the NRA's priorities for the bypass as it proceeds through the planning process?

On the gritting of roads, does the NRA not have any responsibility for ensuring connectivity between counties with regard to the gritting of regional roads? When I raised this issue earlier in the year in the presence of Mr. Barry, the Meath county manager indicated that one of the lessons learned from last winter was the importance of connectivity between counties when gritting is being done. I can list up to a dozen examples in County Meath of regional roads which connect to other counties such as Dublin, Louth and Cavan - I am sure there are others linking to Westmeath and Kildare - and are gritted in one county and not gritted in the others. This is a national problem because regional roads have a national dimension. They should not be considered the property of county councils. It is strange that one county council will decide not to grit its part of a regional road. This problem gives rise to major safety concerns. If one is driving on a gritted regional road, one should expect the whole of the road to be gritted. Does the NRA have a role in this matter? What is its response to this issue?

Is it correct that county councils do not have independent stocks of salt? I am informed that the entire salt stocks are reserved for the National Roads Authority. County councils that wish to provide salt to local communities are hampered because they cannot access salt other than through the NRA.

Given the forthcoming election, I will be parochial and raise a question regarding the N59. What is the position of this route and other national secondary routes which have been neglected over the years as a result of the emphasis on motorways? While I am aware that not every road can be gritted, what measures will the NRA take in light of current forecasts for bad weather?

Before Mr. Barry responds, in paying tribute to Deputy Connaughton earlier I was not aware that the clerk to the committee, Ms Eileen Brosnan, was retiring next Friday, although I was aware that her retirement was imminent. I pay tribute to Eileen and thank her for her dedication. She has been of great service to the committee over the past four years. I know she will be embarrassed by my tribute because she does not like this type of thing. She was not aware that I knew she had been dealing with politicians since 1981. Eileen worked in the office of the Minister for Education and Science before coming to work in the Dáil. She epitomises the many great people who work in the public service. She is quiet, efficient and helpful and always willing to go beyond the call of duty. I am sure all members will join me in wishing her the best of luck in her retirement. We will miss her in this committee to which she has provided outstanding support, shown great professionalism and given great assistance to the Chairman, who must often be kept on a leash. I thank her for her hard work.

Mr. Fred Barry

If I may start with Deputy Coveney's questions, we have 40,000 tonnes, give or take-----

I ask Mr. Barry to start with the most recent questions, as Deputies Coveney and Costello will return to the meeting.

Mr. Fred Barry

Deputy Timmins asked about spatial planning. The spatial planning guidelines were issued in the name of the Ministers for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Transport and the Minister of State with responsibility for matters including sustainable development. The guidelines are, therefore, Government policy.

As regards contributions from developers, such contributions were policy before the guidelines were issued. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has older guidance on that topic dating back to at least 2000. Prior to that, other legislation of which I am not aware may also have applied. It is not correct that this is an NRA policy which was submitted to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and returned to us.

Did the NRA have an input into spatial planning with regard to national roads?

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes, we have made suggestions on the issue. The guidelines were issued for use to the National Roads Authority and local authorities. They have been issued also as a consultation draft. Everybody, including members of the joint committee, has an opportunity to make comments on them before they are finalised by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I appreciate that Deputy Timmins may have different views from the NRA on some of the issues but he has an opportunity to express these views to the Department. I presume it will take his views on board when it finalises the document.

As regards zoning, I do not want to speak in detail about the specific planning development to which the Deputy referred because the matter is before An Bord Pleanála and the case will be argued out before the board. For as long as I can remember, it has been State policy rather than NRA policy that where an area is zoned for planning, one examines the impact of the zoning on transport and traffic assessments. One then decides what measures are needed to mitigate problems by adding public transport measures or, failing that, if further development of the infrastructure is needed, one decides how this will be done. It is in the context of this process that one then examines individual planning applications. This is generally what happens around the country.

There have been a number of examples of local authorities and the NRA coming together. When a particular development needs to be taken forward it is recognised that the zoned land, if fully developed, may cause difficulties and appropriate actions are decided. Sometimes a particular developer has to make a contribution, although that is not always the case. For example, we had a case in the Mahon area of Cork where the NRA objected to a proposal. We met Cork City Council, worked out our differences with it and the council made certain commitments on public transport and on what may become necessary in future-----

Is it a new departure for the National Roads Authority to object to developments? That was not an aspect of the NRA's role two or three years ago.

Mr. Fred Barry

I do not believe it is new. In the five years I have been with the NRA, we have made objections. While we do not object to 98% of what comes across our desk, we have objected from time to time over the years. It is not a new development.

Am I right in saying the NRA's objection was based on all the zoned land being developed? In the case in Wicklow, the project that was given permission would not have put the junction at over-capacity.

Mr. Fred Barry

Before one starts looking at an individual application, one must look at the total zoned area and decide whether it will cause difficulty.

If the total zoned area was developed.

Mr. Fred Barry

If the total zoned area was developed. I heard what the Deputy said about possible over-zoning of lands. For planning purposes, we have to take it as the local authority does it. It is worth mentioning that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has taken particular issue with Wicklow County Council's zoning policies in the area. It is coming from the Department, rather than the NRA. The Department has written to the council to say what it is doing in the area is completely in breach of all national policies. That is not coming from us. We did not write those letters. We did not prompt the Department to do so. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government did it on its own. Many of the issues in Wicklow go beyond anything the NRA might have to say. I repeat that in other areas, we have been able to work with planning authorities to develop plans for areas as a whole. In the last 12 months, we did it in County Meath near the M3, in the Naas area of County Kildare and in the Mahon area of Cork.

To say the NRA worked with the local authority in the Mahon area would be stretching a point. The local authority's dealings with the NRA on that project were extremely frustrating. I want to put that on the record.

Mr. Fred Barry

I will also put on the record that it is extremely frustrating for the NRA to be given the black hat to wear when local authorities are continually infringing State policy. We should not have to be involved in all of this. It is not really a core function of the NRA to be involved in planning issues. If the legislation is changed so that somebody else takes on the role of enforcing State policy in relation to national roads, I will be quite happy.

If it is not the role of the NRA, why does it pursue it?

Mr. Fred Barry

The Legislature has given us a statutory obligation to do so.

There is no doubt about this. We have discussed it previously. The same frustrations exist all over the place. I appreciate where the NRA is coming from. It is frustrating when objections are made and several dangerous bends on a road cannot be improved. We have teased out the question of the NRA's statutory authority on a number of occasions. It needs to be considered in the context of legislation.

Mr. Fred Barry

Okay. A request for approval of the N11 PPP is with the Department of Finance. All PPP tenders and contracts are subject to specific approval by the Department of Finance these days. We have no reason to believe there is a problem in this case. It is still with the Department. After that has been done, we will need to close on the contact, which involves the funders - the banks - being there on the day. The requirement that the banks be there on the day applies to all of these consultations until the very last moment. We expect to proceed to sign that deal in March 2011. I wish to add the caveat that we have not yet cleared all the internal hurdles. Having said that, we are not aware of any objections to it internally. It simply has not been given the go-ahead.

Does Mr. Barry have deadlines for the other projects that are out to tender at the moment?

Mr. Fred Barry

One of the other projects is the Gort to Tuam N17-N18 project, which has been approved by the Department of Finance. We are close to contract finalisation. I would say that will be done in January 2011. There are no further internal requirements.

Can Mr. Barry say what the contract price is?

Mr. Fred Barry

I cannot tell the committee exactly what it is. It is several hundred million euro.

What is the distance of the project?

Mr. Fred Barry

It is 57 km.

The chief executive might let us know what the contract price is.

Mr. Fred Barry

Absolutely. Deputy Timmins asked about funding for the N81 project and other projects. Some of the members of the committee may have seen a Government press release that was issued a few days ago, on foot of the publication of the four year plan. A limited number of major schemes will go to construction in the next few years. Some will proceed in 2011. The thinking is that no other major schemes will proceed to construction for several years beyond that. According to the current plans, the N81 project will not be proceeding for the moment.

The Deputy also asked about traffic signage. I was under the impression, subject to correction, that hospitals could be signposted from the national roads. I will check the specific reference to Loughlinstown Hospital and come back to the Deputy. We reach agreement with Fáilte Ireland on which tourist attractions should or should not be signposted. I would be astonished if Glendalough did not meet the criteria. I understand it is signposted from the N11 but not from the M9.

I hope to see a sign for Glendalough on the M9 next week. Mr. Barry will have to take out his hammer.

Mr. Fred Barry

We will take a look at that. I agree with the Deputy that Glendalough is a must-see destination for many tourists. We will see what can be done.

Deputy Coveney and others asked about salt tonnage. Between our stores and the local authorities' stores, at present there are approximately 40,000 tonnes of salt in the country for use on national roads. The usage at the moment is approximately-----

I thought the relevant figure was 50,000 tonnes.

Mr. Fred Barry

It is 40,000 tonnes today; it was 50,000 a couple of days ago.

Much of the salt that was in storage has been used.

There was supposed to be 50,000 tonnes in storage.

Mr. Fred Barry

I will go back a little further. We bought a little over 50,000 tonnes at the start of this season. We had between 25,000 tonnes and 30,000 tonnes in storage from last year. We started this winter season with 80,000 tonnes. The first salt was used on 19 October. It has been going out since. It has been used much more heavily in recent days than it was on 19 October. We have approximately 40,000 tonnes left. It is being used at the moment. Approximately 3,500 tonnes will be used tonight. The rate varies a little from day to day. In cases of heavy snow, as opposed to ice alone, much more salt needs to be used to achieve the same improvements. That is the sort of output level we have. More salt is on order. Deputy Costello was quite right to say the original plan was to get 50,000 tonnes at the start of this season and a further 30,000 tonnes early next year. However, we have been active since the sudden change in the weather. Various shipments will come through over the coming weeks.

Members are interested in this issue. Mr. Barry said the NRA is "active" during the current cold snap. Surely we learned from last January that we need to have full stocks in place for a two-week or three-week period.

Mr. Fred Barry

I must not have been sufficiently clear. I apologise. We had 80,000 tonnes in storage at the start of this season. That compares with an average usage of between 60,000 tonnes and 70,000 tonnes over an entire season. The amount of salt we had in stock before the season started was more than that normally used over an entire season.

Mr. Fred Barry

We have more on the way.

Did Mr. Barry say that the average amount of salt used each night is 3,500 tonnes?

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes.

Does that figure relate to the entire country?

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes.

How quickly can it be accessed as it is required?

Mr. Fred Barry

It is shipped in from other countries. It depends on where it comes from. Some of it will come in towards the end of next week. More ships will come in over the following week. The exact days of arrival will depend-----

What sort of quantities are coming in before Christmas?

Mr. Fred Barry

Shipments of between 5,000 tonnes and 15,000 tonnes will arrive. It will depend on the size of the ships.

Will that mean the contract for 30,000 tonnes will be exhausted early next year?

Mr. Fred Barry

We have sourced some of this outside that contract. There are additional supplies on order. They will arrive in January.

Temperatures of -10° Celsius are forecast for the next week or so. Is Mr. Barry satisfied that the NRA will be able to-----

Mr. Fred Barry

I am satisfied that we will be able to deal with the primary roads. A number of Deputies asked who is responsible for what. I would like to refer back to the freeze of last February.

The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government was not responsible. The Minister for Transport was not around to give his opinion.

Please, Deputy.

He was not the only one on holidays. We will not start naming names. Deputies from other parties were also seen on beaches.

Mr. Fred Barry

Some of the members of the committee were sporting very nice tans when we met them last year.

The Minister went out to gather sand.

Mr. Fred Barry

Following that event, the Department of Transport put together a task force that included representatives of the local authorities and the Department itself. We had somebody there as well. It came up with a number of recommendations and a plan. It recommended that the NRA should source salt for certain designated routes and make it available to local authorities to purchase in bulk before the start of the winter season. The task force, in conjunction with the local authorities, set out which routes should be gritted under this scheme. They are the primary routes and the main transportation corridors. The Department, the NRA and the other agencies involved have made it clear that we are not setting out to supply salt for all purposes in the country. Our job is to provide salt in respect of the primary routes to which I refer.

Can local authorities obtain supplies of salt on their own behalf?

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes. Prior to this year, local authorities used to procure their own salt supplies.

I was informed yesterday that they cannot obtain it and that when they contact the relevant people they are informed that it is all reserved for the NRA. They are then using this as an excuse for not gritting village streets and minor roads.

Mr. Fred Barry

There are a couple of points which arise. Local authorities are entitled to acquire their own salt supplies. We have no control over that. It is probable that they are approaching suppliers and are being informed that the NRA or someone else have already bought up existing stocks. If they have only approached suppliers in recent days, they will discover that someone from the UK, Ireland or a country on the Continent has probably got there before them.

It does not make sense for two agencies to try to purchase stocks of salt. If local authorities or other agencies want to grit roads other than those in respect of which we are providing supplies of salt, they are quite entitled to do so. For example, the PPP companies have their own supplies of salt.

Does the NRA purchase those supplies for them?

Mr. Fred Barry

No.

That is daft also.

Mr. Fred Barry

They have their-----

I understood that from February last the NRA was given responsibility to provide salt to local authorities so that they might grit the designated routes that have been chosen. Therefore, the NRA was to be the channel for sourcing supplies of salt.

Mr. Fred Barry

The channel for salt for those designated routes is the NRA. I wish to make clear that the channel for sourcing salt supplies in respect of roads outside those designated routes is not the NRA. The PPP companies do their own gritting.

When he uses the terms "designated routes" and "primary routes", is Mr. Barry referring to national primary routes or are there other roads which are considered to be sufficiently important in the context of gritting?

Mr. Fred Barry

National primary routes.

So the NRA does not even cover national secondary routes.

Mr. Fred Barry

Some national secondary routes would be included. They are listed on the website. We are not doing anything in respect of regional roads.

Mr. Fred Barry

Nothing.

Is it not a concern of the NRA that regional roads in some counties are gritted while those in others are not?

Mr. Fred Barry

I am not sure what the Deputy means by the phrase "Is it not a concern of the NRA".

Is it something for which the NRA is responsible?

Mr. Fred Barry

No, it is not.

So a local authority that wishes to grit roads outside the designated routes could find itself short of salt unless it sources additional supplies. Local authorities cannot source such supplies because - this is particularly relevant in an emergency such as that which currently obtains - the NRA has already sourced available supplies en masse. Has the Dublin city manager stated that he is in the process of rationing salt because the NRA is not in a position to provide the council with a sufficient supply?

Mr. Fred Barry

I cannot speak for the Dublin city manager. I probably sound like a broken record but I must reiterate that we are providing salt in respect of the routes for which we are supposed to supply it. These are the national primary and national secondary routes. Mr. Egan has informed me that local authorities are allowed to use some of that salt, if they so desire, on some regional roads.

So it is their choice.

Mr. Fred Barry

They are identified in the listing that is agreed by the local authorities and the Department.

So there is no national policy in respect of the gritting of regional roads. I can drive from Hunterstown, County Louth, to the border of County Meath, which is only a couple of miles, and the road will be gritted. However, when I drive through Drumconrath and Meath Hill, the road will not be gritted. If I drive further on into County Cavan, the road will again be gritted. I am referring here to the same regional road which runs through the three counties. There are many examples in this regard.

Mr. Fred Barry

I am sure there are many examples.

It is important to point out-----

Mr. Fred Barry

The regional roads are the responsibility of local authorities rather than the NRA.

-----that not every road in the country can be gritted. We must be realistic. It is clear that local authorities are responsible for their own supplies of salt. They can access the NRA's supplies if they so desire, but they are responsible for their sourcing any additional supplies which they may require.

Outside those provided by the NRA, what level of supplies of salt are available to local authorities?

Mr. Fred Barry

I cannot inform the Deputy as to the position in that regard.

It is a matter for the local authorities.

Regardless of for whom it is a matter, there is a task force in place on which the NRA, the local authorities and the Department are represented. When those involved sit around a table and discuss this matter, I am sure the NRA states that it is supplying salt in respect of designated primary routes. I am of the view that it is doing quite a good job in that regard. The motorways are, by and large, in good condition at present. However, when the task force meets and when questions are asked, surely it would be better not to state "It is not my responsibility, I do not need to know". There are people living in isolated communities who cannot travel to or from their homes because the roads have not been gritted.

I suggest to the Deputy that this is a matter for the Minister. The NRA-----

The NRA is represented on the task force.

The NRA is responsible for the designated routes. Mr. Barry has indicated that regional and other roads are the responsibility of the local authorities. I want to conclude proceedings at 5.30 p.m. We could spend the entire evening discussing salt supplies but we would not get anywhere.

I accept what the representatives from the NRA have said about this. However, it is not the impression that is being given outside these Houses. I have heard the NRA being blamed for village streets not being gritted and for not providing salt to communities. The other members of the task force should be invited to come before the committee.

If members wish to invite the Minister or anyone else to come before us, we will do so. However, let us concentrate on what Mr. Barry can and cannot do and let us proceed with the meeting. We are wasting time at present.

Mr. Fred Barry

The next question related to PPPs, particularly in the context of revenue and risk-sharing with regard to PPP contracts. The evolution of PPP contracts - in the context of risk-sharing - is that the first contracts the NRA signed with the private sector were in respect of tolled roads where the contractors took all of the traffic risk. If the level of traffic fell to whatever level, all of the risk lay with the PPP companies. Approximately midway through the programme, we were involved with a couple of larger and more complex PPPs, including the Limerick tunnel-southern ring road project and the M3. The latter was more than twice as big as any previous project ever done. The Limerick tunnel was a complex project. The traffic issues relating to Limerick were extremely complex because what was going to happen with traffic would depend on what would happen within the city. Many members will be aware that there has been a long saga in Limerick city in respect of bus lanes and traffic management issues in general.

The advice we received was that the PPP community generally was unwilling to undertake the full traffic risk in respect of the projects to which I refer. As a result, we approached the European Union and obtained approval for us to take on some of the risk. In that context, the traffic guarantees only kick in when traffic is at a particularly low level and only to the extent of 90% of the debt-servicing charge. No matter what happens, the PPP company must still pay for its own equity, the operating costs, the cost of running the tolls, 10% of the debt equity and so on. Even in the worst situation from our perspective, the companies involved are still carrying significant risks. I will return to the moneys involved in this regard in a moment.

With regard to more recent PPP contracts, those in the contracting community have been unwilling to take on any of the traffic risk. Consequently, on schemes in respect of which tendering is taking place at present - such as those relating to the M17-M18 and the N11 - there will be no traffic risk taken on by the PPP company. The companies involved will have construction risks. They will design, construct and operate the roads and will lose money if the roads are not available.

Is Mr. Barry stating that PPP companies are unwilling to take a risk in respect of traffic numbers?

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes.

Has the NRA put contracts out to tender and not received any expressions of interest? How has it assessed their unwillingness to take a risk in respect of traffic numbers?

Mr. Fred Barry

We have had discussions with potential tenderers before launching competitions. This is not just an Irish phenomenon, it is a more general one.

I presume the companies involved tendered for and were awarded previous projects.

Mr. Fred Barry

Indeed. That is the background to the matter.

We are referring to the NRA engaging in discussions with a number of contractors who are risk-averse in the context of traffic numbers, which is understandable.

Mr. Fred Barry

The entire PPP community has become extremely risk-averse. Its members are particularly risk-averse in respect of Ireland. If the thinking is that perhaps we might attract contractors who would take traffic risk on a PPP scenario at present, I must state that this is not the case.

What does Mr. Barry mean when he states that the NRA is taking the risk?

Mr. Fred Barry

It means that the PPP contractors receive the same payments regardless of whether the level of traffic is higher or lower. If the traffic on the M17-M18 route is lower than envisaged, the contractor will still receive the same fixed payments.

Has the NRA made a projection of what the payments will amount to?

Mr. Fred Barry

They have tendered for what the payments would be. The different tenderers have submitted their payment streams and they have been discounted to net present value, using the same discount rates. That gives us the respective costs of the different bids.

If it is above that, does the NRA then pay?

Mr. Fred Barry

They turn into fixed amounts adjustable for inflation only. Otherwise, the authority would pay annual unitary payments.

Would the contract be without the traffic levels?

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes.

Are these toll roads?

Mr. Fred Barry

These are not tolled roads.

What is the situation with the tolled roads?

Mr. Fred Barry

On the M50, which is the most recent toll road, we did the PPP upgrade with the tolling facility and the risk carried separately by the State. We did the PPP upgrade for the road with no tolling associated with the PPP company. Separately, after we bought out NTR, we put a tolling facility in place on the West Link with a contractor working directly for the NRA and we take the entire traffic risk on that.

Does the NRA share the concession?

Mr. Fred Barry

We get a stream of income from the tolls. We make fixed payments to the concessionaire. If the traffic goes up, we do better out of it; if the traffic goes down, we have less money going into the State coffers.

The problem is the State takes the risk if it puts a toll on say the M50. If a private sector company, however, puts a toll in place, it takes no risk. Is that correct?

Mr. Fred Barry

In some cases, they have taken the full risk and in others, they have not.

Taking the case of the Limerick tunnel, my understanding is the traffic through the tunnel is 26% below the target of 17,000 vehicles a day. What balancing payment must the taxpayer make on this tunnel?

Mr. Fred Barry

We have revenue-sharing as well as risk-sharing. So far, we have come out on the right side of that. Over the past several years, we have taken in millions of euro to the taxpayers' benefit. This is not a one-way bet in which the State gets the downside but not the upside. We are well ahead on that. Even this year, when traffic has been significantly lower than previous years due to the recession, we are still gaining at €1 million ahead this year.

Yes, but not on the Limerick tunnel.

Mr. Fred Barry

The amount we have paid this year on the Limerick tunnel is zero. We are drawing up next year's budget and I am expecting the Limerick tunnel and M3 may cost between €2 million and €3 million for 2011. This depends on what happens with traffic volumes which, in turn, depend on the economy.

Is it the lower the traffic numbers, the higher balancing payment the State needs to make?

Mr. Fred Barry

It is but it is always subject to checking against the debt service cost. Over time, as the debt gets paid down by the concessionaires, it will get down to such a low threshold that the guarantees will fall off anyway. This is really an issue in the early years of the arrangement.

The Deputy's figures on the Limerick tunnel are correct. I am not offering any guarantee as to how fast it would grow but on PPPs it takes one or two years for traffic to get up to a steady stake level and then the growth is more in line with economic developments. We covered this matter with the Committee of Public Accounts. Full details were given of the traffic guarantee and the contract for the Limerick tunnel. Deputy Noonan, then Chairman of the committee, had a significant interest in the matter.

We did not cover the M3 in the same way but the principle was more or less the same. There was no objection to what the authority was doing at the time.

I agree with members on that it would have been better to build the motorway stops.

Before we move to this, I asked questions on the total State payment to date.

Mr. Fred Barry

I do not have all of the details. The Comptroller and Auditor General's 2008 annual report has a listing of all the PPP schemes with the amounts spent to date and the amounts forecast as well as concession periods.

What is the entire motorway PPP cost to the State per annum?

Mr. Fred Barry

It is approximately €90 million.

Is that the total the State pays on all PPPs?

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes, on all of these and the operating payments.

Is the State recouping this from income streams from the toll roads? Most the roads in question are toll roads.

Mr. Fred Barry

The State is recouping income from the West Link on the M50. The income goes to cover PPP unitary repayments – but not in full – VAT rates and the buy-out of NTR.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report gave the figure of €2.38 billion as the cost of the State's commitment over the next several years to PPPs. Is the State on a loss-making or profit-making arrangement in this regard? What is the return to the State?

Mr. Fred Barry

Other than on the Dublin Port tunnel and West Link, the toll income goes to the benefit of the PPP concessionaire. The unitary payments of €90 million a year is in addition to the tolls the PPP companies collect. That is adjusted only-----

Does the entire toll money collected, apart from the M50 which is a different arrangement, go to the concessionaires?

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes, except for Dublin Port tunnel and the M50.

Will that remain the case for the duration, say 30 to 45 years, of the concession?

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes, it does except that the contracts all have super profit clauses so if the revenues go over certain levels, the State gets a larger share ensuring we do not get into the same problem we did with West Link some years ago.

Do all the toll roads have a penalty clause for lower than expected levels of traffic?

Mr. Fred Barry

No, it is only for the M3 and the Limerick tunnel that we must share costs. On the others, the entire risk is with the PPP.

Will the risk be shared on the N17 and N18?

Mr. Fred Barry

It will be straight unitary payments in those cases.

Will the roads be tolled?

Mr. Fred Barry

No. No moneys have been put into improving the lower traffic national secondary roads, most of which are in the west from Donegal to west Cork. We have come up with a specification for lightly travelled roads that will give safe-carrying capacity for tourists and for others who use them with slightly lower speeds but better surfaces and alignment which will not cost an arm and a leg to develop.

The NRA will not be doing work of any consequence on the N59 in 2011.

Mr. Fred Barry

No, we will not.

The Moycullen bypass will be the priority-----

Mr. Fred Barry

The Moycullen bypass should go to An Bord Pleanála for approval in 2011, but there will not be funds to build it for some time. We have in mind that when the issue concerning the Galway city outer bypass comes back from the European Court of Justice - if we are allowed to proceed with it - that the Moycullen bypass in connection to Galway could possibly be combined with it in a PPP to give a suitably scaled scheme. However, that is for decision when the time comes.

As regards service areas, it would certainly have been better if they had been developed with the motorways. The legislation is important, I am afraid, because we are completely constrained in what we can do. If there is not a statutory provision to the effect that we can do something, we cannot do it. Until the legislative change was made in 2007, the NRA had no authority and could not have developed service areas.

Deputy Noel Ahern took the Chair.

Did it ask the Government for the legislation?

Mr. Fred Barry

Everybody agreed in 2005 that the change should be made, but it took a while to get it through. On the criteria for the service areas, these were negotiated with the private sector in the first place. Consequently, we have certain scales of development in that on the M1, and for some of the other areas I have talked about, the developments are going to go on one side of the motorway only, with a bridge over. They will be smaller, less parking will be required and the cloth is being cut to suit the measure. We shall still provide the parking facilities for the long-term, for HGVs and for the public, and our intention is that they will be operated, managed and so on by the private sector. We do not have any expertise in the management of that type of facility and we do not believe we should be developing it.

We have arranged for the planning approvals, but having done all that we shall acquire the land through the CPO process, then turn to the private sector and look for expressions of interest for those projects not yet advanced over the next few months. Out of that process we shall decide whether one, two, three or four should go ahead and how this should be done, in the event.

What is the cost to the State? Does the NRA pay for the cost of the infrastructure?

Mr. Fred Barry

It comes down to the competitive tendering process.

I am talking about the CPO aspect.

Mr. Fred Barry

As regards the CPO, we pay for the land. After that, it depends on what the private funders are willing to do. For example, on those that are already open, we paid for the land and made a significant contribution to the construction costs. We have a revenue-sharing scheme with the developer, again competitively tendered, but we have a guarantee of minimum revenue share which equals the amount that we have put into the construction. We hope, if all goes well with the businesses, that the State will get revenue above that for years, but time will tell.

Why does the NRA get involved in the financing and business arrangements of the motorway stops at all?

Mr. Fred Barry

In what sense?

Why is it purchasing the land for them and why does it not just facilitate a private investor or developer to purchase the land, and put a motorway stop in place that the NRA designs the regulations and restrictions for? Why does it have to take a stake as regards whether a venture is profitable? I do not see why that is the business of the NRA. I could understand-----

Mr. Fred Barry

Perhaps I could answer.

Of course, but maybe I could finish the question. I can see why the NRA obviously has to allow access to and from the motorways it manages, but the service stations should be independent I would have thought.

Mr. Fred Barry

There are a few aspects to this. One is that planning permission and CPO approval for access to the motorway comes through the NRA. Therefore it has to be an NRA application and a private applicant cannot get approval from An Bord Pleanála to access a motorway.

Does the NRA go straight to An Bord Pleanála?

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes, it does.

Yes, of course, the private operator could not do that. Is the NRA able to use the legislation to the effect that this is a national project, in going straight to An Bord Pleanála?

Mr. Fred Barry

It is not the critical infrastructure-type approach. The NRA has, for some time, gone directly to An Bord Pleanála rather than through individual local authorities. I believe the thinking behind that was that many of the schemes crossed county boundaries.

I can understand that as regards the road, but for something like the services, which is an individual matter, it is different.

Mr. Fred Barry

The legislation provides that we go directly to An Bord Pleanála.

That is the amended 2007 legislation.

To be clear, that is for the access onto the motorway, not to the site itself.

Mr. Fred Barry

Let me keep answering. To get planning permission for a service area in a rural region, this will normally be in a place where the lands are not zoned for development. To get planning permission we have to convince An Bord Pleanála that we have looked at alternative sites and locations along the length of the motorway and that the one we are proposing is the best fit on all the usual environmental grounds. Only in those circumstances will it give approval for a particular site. We cannot just decide to negotiate with somebody here or there and go to An Bord Pleanála because we will not get planning permission in the event.

There are two further constraints on us. One is that we are not allowed to enter into commercial arrangements under the legislation. We had a direction from the Attorney General on this recently in an unrelated matter where we were advised in no uncertain terms to the effect that we were not entitled to do that. Therefore we cannot enter into commercial arrangements directly with individuals. Where we are seeking to develop something, at the construction and operation end of things, under EU procurement law we have to do it through a tender process.

That is why the NRA gets the planning permission for the site and acquires it. It then puts it out for public tender through the PPP process, and the developers themselves make the funding arrangements and decide how they want to bid - whether they want to fund all or part of the project, and look to us for payments etc. We get the bids in, then basically decide on the best price for the State and it goes forward in that way. That is why it is done the way it is.

Does the NRA keep ownership of the land?

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes, it does. They are on licensed relationships.

Is the NRA going ahead with the Cashel project?

Mr. Fred Barry

On the Cashel project we shall put it out there for the private sector to tell us-----

Even though there is one there.

Mr. Fred Barry

It is up to themselves. Obviously, they will know there is one there. That will be a commercial decision for the private sector. If the private sector does not come forward with good bids, then we will not do that. However, the private sector, as we know, is well used to competition, and the fact there is another service stop in the area might not deter it. Mainly with these, they are looking at the through traffic on the main road rather than otherwise. However, that will be a question for them to decide.

The Minister has said in recent weeks that he has instructed the NRA to look at altering the tendering process to make it more attractive for the private sector to commit to funding service stations. My understanding in speaking to the NRA on this issue - to Mr. Barry, perhaps - was there was some concern that nobody was willing to bid as regards service stations. My understanding was that surely the response to that is that we need to change the restrictions.

Mr. Fred Barry

Perhaps I did not explain myself very clearly. The last time when we went out to bid, nobody was willing to offer the full cost of doing it upfront. We had to put some of the money towards the construction and accept a payback over the life of the project. That was the best deal on offer. The deals we are looking at in other areas are smaller. The fact that the stations that opened on the M1 and the M4 seem to be doing okay may alleviate some concerns from tenderers, so we may get better offers. The next step is to acquire land, receive expressions of interest and see what the private sector is saying to us. I do not want us to get into the business of operating service areas ourselves. It could be done but we do not have the know how.

Is there just one operator for those that are open?

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes. It was a single competition for those three sets of sites. The SuperStop consortium consists of Applegreen, TOP Oil and Pierse Contracting.

What about the comment I passed about the origins of the staff? Has Mr. Barry heard this before?

Mr. Fred Barry

They are employers who hire employees like any other in the country. They are subject to the same requirements as anyone else. They get no exceptions.

Will Mr. Barry privately make an inquiry in this regard? I would be delighted to go back to my source and tell him that he was talking nonsense.

Mr. Fred Barry

I cannot reasonably carry out a check on every person who works with them. A girl I know and who is Irish is working in one of them.

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes.

If Mr. Barry hears any more information, I ask him to give the committee a call.

Mr. Fred Barry

In respect of the future of the NRA and the national regional design offices, NRDOs, they are very closely linked. The Deputy is right that the volume of major scheme work is diminishing. We still have much work on major schemes. We have to close out 30 or 40 major schemes over the next year, where we are doing final accounts, getting snag lists done and so on. Beyond that, the main activity of the NRA will be in network operations, such as overseeing motorway operations, tunnels, VMS signs, emergency telephones and so on. Every year, we conduct approximately 500 small projects in conjunction with local authorities, such as pavement improvements, fridge rehabilitations and so on. All of this work will continue.

We have moved many people who used to work on major schemes to this operational area. This is entirely new to us because we did not have any of it a couple of years ago. We have reduced our numbers from 149 to 135 and we are on our way to reducing this further. Approximately 340 people were working in the regional design offices, and this has reduced to approximately 200 and will come down further. The reduction in numbers will continue over the next period. Between ourselves and the NRDOs working with us from the local authorities, the numbers are coming down appropriately.

Does the chief executive think the NRA's offices are well placed to take on other infrastructural projects in the State? We have looked at the NRA structure from the point of view of upgrading water infrastructure as a co-ordinator between all the local authorities.

Mr. Fred Barry

The regional design office approach is very appropriate for local authorities grouping together to carry out schemes that might be a bit tricky for any one or other of them and to provide a more regional and national approach. With regard to roads, we are in discussions with the city and county managers to reduce the number of national regional design offices because there are ten of them at present, and given that the NRDOs have been particularly focused on new scheme development in the road programme ahead of us, the local authorities cannot justify this number of offices being open. The existing structure is being reduced in size and capability to suit our purposes at present. It could be used for other things. It does not necessarily need the NRA to be there for it to be used for other things. The offices are staffed mainly by local authority personnel, although we have personnel in there as well. The local authorities themselves can be combined without that being done through the NRA.

Alternatively, if the Government wanted us to do so, we could be given further tasks and we could take them on. Our capability has been shrinking over the past year, as should be the case, so that if we are to be given other things to do, sooner would be better than later.

What is the story with the Limerick to Waterford road?

Mr. Fred Barry

We are doing route planning with a view to getting to a preferred route status. We want to get that status on routes that are not going ahead in order that we can free up the rest of the area for planning and we are not interfering. We have talked about how much we interfere with local authorities on planning. There is no prospect at the moment of construction work on the Limerick to Waterford road going ahead in the current financial plan. Beyond that, it will probably happen and it could be done in sections. I accept that the roads around Carrick on Shannon and Tipperary Town are badly in need of being improved.

What about the Dublin to Derry route?

Mr. Fred Barry

The project from Derry to Aughnacloy at the Border is being run by Roads Service Northern Ireland. We are co-ordinating with it on the connections near Lifford, where a future road will tie into Donegal at the Border crossing. We are also certifying certain levels of completion in support of the funding regime. There are milestones and payments attached to those milestones, and we are taking off when those milestones are reached. The Roads Service Northern Ireland is at an advanced stage in the planning. It has picked the contractors and is going for early contractor involvement in order that the contractors are involved in the design and route planning from the beginning.

Has it received planning permission?

Mr. Fred Barry

No. It is going through that process at the moment. It will get planning permission towards the end of 2011. I am not sure how long the process takes, but I suspect it intends to start construction in 2012 and complete it in 2015.

Is there co-ordination on the route south of the Border?

Mr. Fred Barry

The improvement scheme in Northern Ireland stops just north of the Border, but we are co-ordinating on location with Roads Service Northern Ireland in order that what we are both planning will work together. That is going on south of the Border. Monaghan County Council is finalising a preferred route, but once we get to that stage, we will stop work until the funding situation changes.

Would the route selected be the motorway to Belfast as far as Ardee, turning off where the two plus one road is situated or will the Slane route be used? Has a decision been made in this respect?

Mr. Fred Barry

Effectively, the M1 route will be the route for the next few years because it will be quite some time before there is funding available to do anything more.

Would that not be a permanent route?

Mr. Fred Barry

It might be, but who knows in ten or 15 years time? I do not know what will happen with traffic.

Are there not serious problems at the moment with commuter traffic along that route? It would be very difficult to justify a motorway-----

Mr. Fred Barry

I do not see us building a motorway at the northern end of the road. We are at motorway level on the N2 for a few miles north of the M50, but we are not even proposing to build the Slane bypass further along that road as a motorway. We do not see the traffic needs for that.

Are there commitments to have a motorway, or are there commitments to have some other form of primary route?

Mr. Fred Barry

We have made no commitments in the Republic, other than those we know about here, such as our application to An Bord Pleanála for the approval to bypass Slane. It is a local authority matter to decide on the preferred route in Monaghan.

So our commitments are for Northern Ireland.

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes, but the Government has made commitments to Northern Ireland as part of a settlement.

Are the commitments in terms of the amount of money or the type of road?

Mr. Fred Barry

The commitments are in terms of money. It is a contribution to two roads in Northern Ireland, which I think are the A8 from Derry to Belfast and the A5. In practice, the payments are being made against milestones on the A5. The Northern Ireland Government and the Northern Ireland Roads Service are developing that as a dual carriageway. I do not remember offhand whether it is a motorway or simply a dual carriageway that is not designated. However, I can find out and can let Deputy Costello know.

However, we have no commitments as to the nature of the road up to Aughnacloy.

Mr. Fred Barry

No, we have not. That would come from our side and the NRA is doing the preferred route stage at present. When the time comes, a planning application will be made to An Bord Pleanála for that and it is then that we would be obliged to declare what we thought we should be building and convince An Bord Pleanála that it was appropriate.

What is the project's present status on the Southern side?

Mr. Fred Barry

It is at preferred route stage. The preferred route has not been decided. It will be decided very shortly and at that stage, we will be parking it for the moment until the funding situation improves.

I thank everyone for their attendance.

Mr. Fred Barry

I thank the Acting Chairman.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.40 p.m. until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 15 December 2010.
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