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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 9 Oct 2013

Forthcoming Transport, Telecommunications and Energy Council: Discussion with Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport

The purpose of the meeting is to allow the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar, to brief members on the agenda for the meeting of the Transport, Telecommunications and Energy Council in Luxembourg tomorrow. I welcome him and his officials, Mr. Fintan Towey, Ms Ethna Brogan, Mr. Eddie Burke, Mr. Seamus Ryan and Mr. Michael Morrissey. Members should bear in mind that the Minister has to leave by 11.15 a.m. at the latest.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l), witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. They are advised that any document or opening statement they have submitted to the committee will be published on its website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

I am pleased to attend this meeting of the joint committee in advance of the Transport, Telecommunications and Energy Council meeting in Luxembourg tomorrow morning. In the course of his presentation to the committee last week the Secretary General of my Department, Mr. Tom O'Mahony, briefed members on developments at European Union level since 2012, including developments in and progress on the Department's key dossiers during Ireland's EU Presidency. This included the key outcomes of the June and March Councils.

The running order of agenda items for tomorrow's Council meeting has changed since the version provided for the committee by the Department. For convenience, however, I will refer to the items according to the numbering in the circulated documentation. I do not propose to go over the same ground as Mr. O'Mahony last week; rather, I will focus on the agenda for tomorrow's meeting, going briefly through the main headed items and some of the important any other business items. I will be pleased thereafter to take questions from members.

The main agenda item for the meeting of the Council is an orientation debate on the Commission's proposal for a new regulation on air passenger rights. The new regulation will amend EU Regulation 261/2004 on compensation and assistance provided for passengers in the event of denial of boarding or cancellation or long delay of flights. EU Regulation 2027/97 on air carrier liability in respect of the carriage of passengers and their baggage by air will also be discussed. The proposal was published in March and my officials appeared before the committee to discuss it in May. It was formally presented by the Commission to Ministers at the last meeting of the Council during the Irish Presidency on 10 June.

This is very important legislation. Good connections for business and travel generally are essential. At the same time, however, the rights of passengers to proper treatment in the event of delay, cancellation and denial of boarding must be respected fairly and consistently throughout the European Union.

However, in meeting these obligations we must ensure the burden on carriers is not excessive, especially where delay, for example, is caused by factors outside their control. The Commission’s proposals aim to clarify a number of grey areas in the existing regulation that led to a significant number of cases being brought to the European courts. It also introduces the concept of burden sharing so that the cost of obligations does not fall on carriers alone when it comes to events outside their control.

The Presidency has tabled a number of specific questions to guide the orientation debate at the Council, focusing particularly on the provisions on missed connections in Article 6, how compensation for long delays should be regulated and whether compensation levels should be linked to ticket price. The Government has concerns about the proposals concerning missed connections in Article 6. Under the proposals as currently drafted, the smaller airlines in the EU that feed traffic into the main hubs will have to bear the entire cost of compensating passengers for the full journey in cases in which they miss their connecting flights. This has the potential to undermine interlining arrangements between carriers and could encourage carriers to take a much more conservative approach to connectivity. Such a conservative approach, if adopted by the airlines, would not be in the best interests of passengers. Our key concern is to ensure that passengers' rights are protected, that airlines comply with their obligations and that the system is fair and proportionate and reflects the protections offered in other modes of transfer. We are open to considering linking the levels of compensation to the ticket price in some way and will urge the Commission to do further work on examining this.

Agenda item 5 deals with a proposal to extend until 2024 the mandate of the European agency that is progressing the development of the technology side of the single European sky. The agency is called the SESAR Joint Undertaking and it is a public private partnership first established in 2007 whose mandate is due to cease in 2016. There is no particular delay in the work of the SESAR Joint Undertaking but, following a detailed examination, it is considered necessary to extend its remit in order to ensure continued effective co-ordination of research activities beyond 2016. To date, some €2 billion has been spent on research in the area and it is estimated that a further €1.5 billion will be spent in the period to the end of 2024. Ireland shares the view on the importance of ensuring good co-ordination of this considerable level of research activity to prevent duplication and overlap. Therefore, we will support the proposal for an extension.

Item 6 on the Council agenda deals with the fourth railway package. Ireland fully supports harmonisation of the EU rail network within reason. The proposal for a directive on railway safety, recast, provides for standardisation of the process of safety certification of railway undertakings and the safety authorisation of infrastructure managers. Ireland had reservations that the imposition of the model applicable to the continental European services would be disproportionate to our relatively small network. Trains from Great Britain and mainland Europe cannot cross the sea so it does not make sense to standardise everything just for the sake of it. We have settled on an amendment to Article 11 to better accommodate our position. Our reservations are being addressed in the draft of the directive that will be presented to the Council for agreement. The proposals contained in the directive will apply only to the rail service operated by Irish Rail. The EU proposals will not cover Luas or heritage railways. The process of safety certification of railway undertakings and the safety authorisation of infrastructure managers for such railways is overseen by the Railway Safety Commission under the Railway Safety Act 2005.

Agenda item 7 concerns a proposal to streamline the work of the European agency dealing with Galileo, Europe’s satellite navigation programme. Maintaining effective security of the Galileo system and its operation is one of the more important aspects of the work of this agency. There is, therefore, a need to ensure appropriate internal separation and independence of those activities within the agency from the other activities of the agency. Ireland agrees that the proposals will improve the governance of the agency and, accordingly, we have no difficulty in endorsing this proposal.

Likewise, Ireland has no difficulty with agenda item 8 on multi-annual funding for the European Maritime Safety Agency, EMSA. The objective of the current proposal is to renew the multi-annual pollution funding programme for the period 2014-20. An amount of €160.5 million has been proposed by the Commission.

Under agenda item 9(a), any other business, the Commissioner will report to Ministers on progress on the outcome of discussions at the triennial assembly of the International Civil Aviation Organisation, ICAO, in Montreal last week on tackling the environmental impact of global aviation. The EU brought aviation within the remit of its emissions trading system on 1 January 2012 but there has been significant opposition globally to the extraterritorial application of the EU’s scheme to airlines from outside the EU. The issue has been the subject of much debate in ICAO over recent years. The EU has been encouraging ICAO and its member states to adopt market-based mechanisms to tackle emissions from aviation on a global scale. The good news from the assembly is that the member states of ICAO have committed to developing a market-based mechanism by 2020. This is later than the EU would have wished. However, no consensus was reached on the measures to be applied prior to the application of a global scheme in 2020. The Commission must now assess the outcome of the ICAO assembly before deciding on the next steps with regard to its emissions trading scheme. I expect the Commissioner will provide us with an update of his initial thoughts on the matter at Council.

Agenda item 9(d), on monitoring, reporting and verification of greenhouse gas emissions from international maritime transport, is at an early stage in the legislative process. Ireland, along with many other member states, is very much at the point of seeking clarification from the Commission regarding definitions and implications.

I thank the Minister for the detail he provided. With regard to the first item on the agenda, the Minister said there were concerns about some of the proposals as they might have an impact on interlining arrangements between airlines if the airlines believe the sanction for a late transfer would ultimately mean that the carrying airline pays the full cost of the journey. Can the Minister talk about how that may undermine interlining arrangements?

It is important to make a distinction between care and assistance on the one hand and cash compensation on the other. There is no argument that if someone misses a connection, the airline is responsible for making sure the person can get the next available flight. If the person is delayed for a certain period of time, he or she should be provided with assistance or meals. We have concerns about cash compensation on top of that. Our concern is that if airlines are required to pay too much cash compensation too often, it may create a perverse incentive. If someone is flying from Shannon to London and on to Bangkok but misses a connection in London and is delayed by four or five hours, the airline may be hit with a compensation bill of several hundred euro. The airline may come to the view that it would be better not to provide connecting flights at all. That is the perverse incentive I am talking about.

The compensation airlines are required to pay under this proposal is much higher for a delay than for a cancellation. An airline might take a financial decision that it is less costly to cancel a flight than to pay out compensation for the delay. Even though this is intended to enhance the rights of passengers, there is a risk it could create perverse incentives that make the situation worse for passengers. That is what we will ask the Commission to bear in mind.

The concern relates to the compensation rather than the effort the airline must make to ensure the passenger gets to the destination.

What level of interaction has the Minister had with Irish airlines in respect of the impact it will have? Have there been broader discussions or have the airlines raised issues over and above what the Minister proposes to address tomorrow?

This has been raised by Aer Lingus, which has that concern. I met representatives of IATA, the International Air Travel Association, which represents airlines around the world. A point-to-point airline such as Ryanair does not have the same level of concern.

With regard to the rail issue, a previous proposal would have required Ireland to invest significantly in our rail infrastructure. Is that part of this proposal?

The railway package has been broken into different aspects. Initially, we are dealing with safety and interoperability. It sets European standards which over time would require us to upgrade our railways.

We have tried to avoid committing Ireland to European standards that would be expensive to implement but would not make any sense. One example is the European rail traffic management system, ERTMS, which is a European-type signalling system. It makes sense if one is driving a train from Berlin to Paris that France and Germany should have the same signalling system, but it does not make sense that we should have to put in the same system, because it is not possible to drive a train to Ireland. We are aiming for a common-sense approach. It has been recognised that Ireland has an isolated network and that things are different here. The railway track gauge is narrower in Ireland. Even if one could drive a train from Britain to Ireland, the tracks would have to be changed. Our general approach is to request to be exempted from some obligations that do not make sense on an island.

Has the Department undertaken an assessment of the cost impact of the proposals on Irish Rail?

Not really, but it is not hugely significant.

I thank the Minister. The rest is straightforward.

I thank the Minister for his presentation to the committee.

The extra cost to the consumer is a concern and one which the Minister says he shares. I have a question about the issue of luggage charges. There are many variations in the airline industry. Ryanair has one charge while Aer Lingus has another. Will these charges be standardised or will it be left to the airlines?

I will defer to Ms Brogan on that point. The plan is to go for greater transparency and to allow the airlines to make their own rules but to ensure that these are transparent and clear to passengers.

Ms Ethna Brogan

Pricing for the carriage of passengers and their baggage is considered a full commercial freedom of the airlines. There is nothing in the proposal to standardise those charges. As the Minister said, there is a proposal to ensure that at the time of booking, full transparency about the charges is provided to the consumer for both the basic fare, cabin baggage and hold baggage.

I ask for some examples of how we can avail of TEN-T funding. It was originally designed for special projects in areas such as the west of Ireland. It is being used in some harbours. I ask what is in the pipeline.

TEN-T is not particularly targeted at disadvantaged regions or regions with low levels of infrastructure; it is designed to create trans-European networks. It focuses on the missing links across Europe or on the bottlenecks in trans-European networks. The nature of Irish politics is that people think that a European funding stream can always be applied to a local project. However, this is not the case, by and large. A trans-European network means precisely that; it refers, for example, to the corridor from Athens to London. The opportunities for Ireland probably arise in two areas, those being the harbours and ports to which the Deputy referred, some of which have received funding, and railways. Cork received funding for a study but the proposal to link the railway to Shannon-Foynes, unfortunately, did not receive funding. However, they will make another request for funding early next year and I will support the request. Irish Rail submitted a request for funding for aspects related to a future DART underground project. For example, a request for funding for the proposed new station in Ashington-Ashtown and O'Reilly's Crossing was not successful for a number of reasons. It was regarded more as a local project than a trans-European project. We disagree because if and when DART underground is completed it will link Belfast to Dublin and Cork so it is more than a local railway project. Port developments and some of those railway links are being considered.

Does this mean that linking Belfast and Dublin is the type of project which would be funded by TEN-T?

I thank the Minister for his presentation. The Commission's proposal aims to clarify a number of grey areas. Must the airlines and the industry agree before the proposals can go ahead? Is it possible that cases could be brought before the European courts arguing against financial or administrative burdens on the airlines?

It is open to anyone to take a case before the courts. In recent years different types of compensation arrangements have developed through case law and precedent. There is not a clear regulation that sets out the rules in writing for everyone to see. That is the purpose of this regulation. For example, the annex to the regulation lists the extraordinary circumstances. Rather than allowing the courts to decide matters on a case-by-case basis, this is an attempt to lay down a clear European regulation which will have a direct effect across Europe.

Will the Minister require full consent from the airlines and other bodies involved?

No. It will be European law. The airlines have their own arrangements and agreements but these are not legally binding, while this regulation will be.

I thank the Minister for that presentation. I presume a balancing act will be required. Airlines may say it is not worth providing these connections. It will be necessary to achieve some reasonable level of balance between rights and an incentive for airlines to provide those services.

The Secretary General of the Department was before the committee at a previous meeting and I raised maritime and emissions issues. Is there an opportunity for Ireland to develop incentives for more efficient maritime transport with lower emissions in place of overland transport with higher emissions? I refer to the Marco Polo initiative or the Highways of the Sea initiative. Could Ireland participate in such initiatives to further enhance our port strategies? Ninety per cent of our goods and services are transported by sea.

I agree it is a balancing act. The objective always is to ensure that passengers' rights are respected. However, one must be careful not to go too far with any of these regulations because there is a danger that business will suffer. One does not want to put companies out of business. I need to study the regulation more. I have been talking to people who are frequent travellers and they advise me that their primary concern is to have care and assistance if they miss a connection or a flight. They want the airlines to pull out all the stops to get them to their destination as quickly as possible and to treat them with a bit of respect and dignity while that is happening. I do not meet many people who want a couple of hundred euro in cash; they just want to complete their journey as quickly as possible. It may a different case if one misses a day of a holiday but, by and large, those who are delayed for four or five hours are not looking for a cheque as compensation.

They are looking for the airline to make a genuine effort to get them to the destination as soon as possible and treat them well in the process. That should be our focus, as that is what I believe passengers want; I may be wrong about that but I am interested in the committee's views.

On the maritime side, it is still early days and we are still trying to work out a mechanism to calculate emissions to allow controls in the future. There is a different piece of legislation which has only just been started - I cannot remember if it is a directive or regulation - which deals with clean power. It will consider everything from electric vehicles to clean power in ports, and it could potentially provide European funding for the establishment of natural gas facilities in ports which could be used to fuel ships. I have been told it is a clean fuels directive and I am very keen on it, although many people feel it is overly ambitious. It provides a good vision of the future.

I thank the Minister for taking those questions and I might add a couple. I agree on the approach for compensation for passengers. Ireland is an island nation that depends on connectivity and it is important that we do not reduce connectivity because of compensation measures that might be proposed. What is the Minister's opinion on the possible outcome of meetings? Has he any idea of the views of other countries, and do many other nations depend on connectivity to hubs as much as we do? Passengers have rights and need compensation, but what will be the bottom line?

With regard to issues arising at previous Council meetings, is there any update on the roadworthiness and testing of vehicles issue? What about the introduction of testing of agricultural vehicles? That is a separate question but it has come up before.

Tomorrow we will have an orientation debate so it will be the first time to discuss the aviation issue in a formal Council format. I imagine almost every Minister will speak, which will give a good idea of where the matter is going. The Commission will be steered in a certain direction. We have had informal discussions, and, naturally enough, the periphery countries and islands are more dependent on aviation and are closer to our view, whereas more central nations with road and rail-based alternatives have a different view. There will be much support of our position, particularly with connections. The kind of argument I need to make is that we are not seeking a diminution of passenger rights but if obligations are made too onerous, it will not benefit passengers.

I did not quite catch the question on agricultural vehicles.

We previously discussed the testing of vehicles for roadworthiness.

The roadworthiness directive will not be discussed tomorrow. I cannot remember what was agreed on the agricultural issue. Initially there were plans to include motorbikes and so on and we did not go for that. They also wanted to include trailers and we did not go for that.

It was a hot topic.

Currently we have discretion with regard to the testing of tractors with a design speed greater than 40 km/h which are solely used for agriculture, horticulture, forestry and fisheries. It is only a proposal but it would leave member states to decide on tractors with a design speed greater than 40 km/h. I imagine those with a speed less than that would not be included.

There might be flexibility within member states.

That is the current proposal.

If there are no other questions, I thank the Minister and his officials for coming before the committee to summarise the proposals on tomorrow's agenda. We appreciate that clarification and the fact that the Minister has come here in advance of the meeting. The December transport Council meeting will also be of great interest to members of this committee but perhaps, rather than appear before us at that time, the Minister will forward a synopsis of the outcome of the meeting for our information.

That is no problem.

I thank the Minister.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.35 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 16 October 2013.
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