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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 25 Jun 2014

Luas Cross City Line and Future of Public Transport in Dublin: National Transport Authority

No. 7 on the agenda is a meeting with the National Transport Authority. The purpose of this morning's meeting is to engage with the National Transport Authority on the impact of the Luas cross city line on the city centre's commercial life and the timescale for its completion, as well as on the authority's vision of the future of public transport in the city of Dublin. On behalf of the joint committee, I again welcome Mr. Gerry Murphy and Mr. Hugh Creegan of the National Transport Authority, NTA.

I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they will be entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also advise the witnesses that any submission or opening statements they have submitted will be published on the committee's website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. As that is the housekeeping out of the way, I call Mr. Murphy to make his opening statement.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

I thank the Chairman. As he noted, there are two areas for discussion, namely, the construction of the Luas cross city line and plans for the transport infrastructure. I have extended the latter subject beyond Dublin and have covered the other cities in the State. To assist me in dealing with questions, I am joined by Mr. Hugh Creegan, the NTA's deputy chief executive, who manages transport investment in our organisation.

First, as for Luas cross city, in summary, it is a 6 km-long light rail project that extends an existing Luas line right across the city to the new Dublin Institute of Technology campus at Grangegorman and onwards to the large residential area of Cabra. It will have 13 stops, with eight in the core city centre area, and the route passes along some key streets in the city, including Dawson Street, College Green, O'Connell Street and Parnell Street, which really comprise the spine of the city. The optimum way to build such a line through a city centre with least effect on businesses and residents is through a series of enabling contracts that prepare the way for a main infrastructure contract, which then can be carried out as expeditiously as possible. The principal enabling contracts include cellar investigation and infilling works, which have been successfully completed and more than 330 cellars have been infilled, as well as the removal, repair and storage of items of heritage value that are in the way of the scheme. Such items will be replaced and put back after the scheme is ready and complete. In addition, these contracts include the diversion of the many underground utilities from the path of the Luas tracks. The utilities contract is under way at the moment, having started in January. Anybody in the city will have seen the presence of work sites from St. Stephen's Green northwards and they are all due for completion in the third quarter of 2015. There will be a rolling programme of such sites through the city. Maintaining pedestrian and traffic movements and the frequency and reliability of public bus services have been central principles in planning the works. There is a traffic forum involving the National Transport Authority, Dublin City Council, the Railway Procurement Agency, An Garda Síochána and Dublin Bus, which meets regularly to plan and review progress. The utilities contract under way at present is a target cost contract, that is, a contractual structure that incentivises the contractor to complete the works as expeditiously as possible and to work collaboratively with the client and which is a kind of gain-share contract.

We have put in place a comprehensive communications structure for the project. In 2013, we appointed a specialist communications director to develop and lead the engagement with the public and all the relevant interests in the city. This had not been done previously for this type of project and many communication channels are now in play. For example, we have a dedicated website, luascrosscity.ie, supported by a freefone service, information e-mail, Twitter and Facebook. In addition, there are liaison officers on the ground in daily engagement with contractors, retailers and businesses and who deal with all the local issues. There could be a cone in the wrong place, a sign misplaced or something like that. We issue flyers, use e-mail, have built together a big database of interested parties, send letters and use social media and advertisements. We also opened a public information office in a unit off Dawson Street in 2013, where the liaison officers are based with the communications team. The idea was to have a drop-in centre that supported the electronic and print media and that would give a public face to the scheme. There also are many meetings with business representatives and all key stakeholders. I will add that the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, personally chairs a regular meeting on the project to ensure all the interests are aligned.

The main infrastructure contract, which is the one in which one will see the rails being laid, was issued for tender in April and it is anticipated that this contract will be awarded in December 2014. This is a design and build contract and therefore, in the early months after December the contractor will be finalising the design for the works, after which the main works will commence on the street in 2015. The project will be completed in 2017 and it is planned that the new Luas services will commence in October 2017 following a period of satisfactory testing and commissioning. The railway order of An Bord Pleanála approving the scheme omitted a northbound stop on Dawson Street. Consequently, were one coming across the city heading northwards towards O'Connell Street, one would not have a stop on Dawson Street, as objections were raised at the time. In 2013, we engaged engineering consultants to review this again and to consult the businesses on the street and their representative groups to ascertain whether a location for a stop could be found. I am pleased to say that a stop location has been identified that we think meets all the needs of the businesses and the travelling public and a railway order application for that stop will be submitted to An Bord Pleanála in the next week or so. Finally, the European Investment Bank has provided significant financial backing for Luas cross city via a loan of €150 million to the State.

The second topic concerns plans for transport infrastructure and the NTA manages three programmes for investment in public transport infrastructure. One is in the greater Dublin area. This area spans both the four Dublin local authorities and counties Meath, Kildare and Wicklow. The programme is of the order of €150 million per annum and covers all the modes, namely, rail, bus and light rail, as well as covering traffic management, cycling and walking. The authority also manages a programme for the cities of Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford. This programme is of the order of €14 million per annum and covers bus, rail, traffic management, cycling and walking investment.

We also manage a transport accessibility programme across the State for those who are mobility impaired. This programme is of the order of €1.5 million per annum. In this context, any design or infrastructure we put into the other programmes is made appropriate for those whose mobility is impaired, but the smaller transport accessibility programme is a targeted programme for additional features.

Approximately 40% of the State's population and economic activity is in the greater Dublin area, and public transport is critically important for the efficient movement of people. Consequently, we are required under legislation to prepare long and short-term plans for the region. Our implementation plan for 2013 to 2018 was statutorily approved by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport in January of this year and it guides all that we do in respect of our objectives and outputs for the greater Dublin region. I have included a table in my note that sets out the investment plan. Broadly, one could say it involves €150 million per annum, amounting to approximately €900 million over the period, and distributed across bus, light rail, heavy rail and traffic and sustainable transport, which are getting €215 million, €285 million, €136 million and €246 million, respectively.

Each year we fund in excess of 200 projects. This year we are getting to the order of 300 projects in this programme, which ranges from small cycling schemes up to the biggest scheme, which is Luas cross city. I will give a broad outline of the projects to be developed out to 2018.

On the bus side, we will invest in the bus fleet that is providing subsidised services to achieve an average age of less than seven years. This programme also covers investment in the Bus Éireann coach fleet and its regional cities fleet that is providing subsidised services. We will develop the quality bus corridor network and increase prioritisation for buses at traffic signals. We will develop a coach parking facility close to Dublin city centre for commuter and tour buses and coaches when not in use. Anybody familiar with the city will be aware that there are many coaches parked in the city, having discharged the visitors, and they could park elsewhere and free up the space. We will improve bus stops - there is a big need for that - with new-style bus poles and better information panels. We will progress the design and planning of three bus rapid transit projects: Swords-the airport to the city centre; Blanchardstown to UCD; and Clongriffin on the north-east sector of the city to Tallaght. We hope that we will have started improvement works on the bus rapid transit route from Swords to the city centre within the period of the plan. Regarding light rail, essentially, we will complete the construction of Luas cross city.

The key new project for heavy rail will be the opening up of the Phoenix Park tunnel to commuter train services from the Kildare rail line. If one is coming up from the south west and southern stations, the train terminates at Heuston Station. The opening of the tunnel will allow such trains not to stop at Heuston and carry through Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara, Pearse and Grand Canal stations to the heart of the city. We are investing in city centre re-signalling to create the extra train paths through Connolly Station to allow the tunnel services to operate.

The traffic and sustainable transport projects will be many and varied. Given their size, they tend to be small-scale projects. The biggest single element will be the gradual delivery of a safer and better cycle network across the region.

All of the above are the immediate plans within the constraints of the current national capital investment plan. Of course, we are planning for a longer-term programme. To underpin our analytical work for a 20-year plan, we are carrying out two major studies this year. First, we are looking at all the options for serving the fast growing Fingal local authority area and its main town of Swords. Fingal experienced population growth of 14% between the census of 2006 and 2011 compared with the figure of 8% for the State. Without appropriate public transport capacity, Fingal will be severely constrained in terms of both residential and economic expansion. We have just commissioned a major engineering review of bus, light rail and heavy rail options for serving that area and we expect to complete that by early next year.

Separately, we are carrying out a detailed business case for the DART underground project. That is a high capacity tunnel link that would interconnect the coastal rail line from Greystones to Balbriggan with the Kildare rail line coming in from the west, allowing a DART network to run from Balbriggan to Hazelhatch and from Maynooth to Greystones, with interchange and new stops in the city centre. The last business case for that was done in 2010 and was based on the 2006 census, and we want to update that business case and the pricing of it.

The most important factor in the long-term planning of infrastructure for the Dublin region will be the availability of State funds in the period beyond 2020 and also the feasibility of the public private partnership model to draw in debt and equity funding from private parties. These matters will become clearer in the coming years. Currently, there is a Government investment review. From demographic and economic projections, additional rail capacity will be needed in the future. However, finding the solutions that are fundable will be the focus of our work in the coming year.

I mentioned I would cover the other cities. Regarding Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford, the next five years will see a continuation of current patterns. In 2013, approximately €14.5 million was distributed across 59 different projects. The split of funding, as between bus, walking-cycling, traffic management and other, is shown in the presentation.

Each city will continue with improvements to bus priority while we will invest further in real time information, which is our national project, and will commence a programme of bus stop improvements in the cities, all to grow bus modal share. The signs are good. I would point out that bus passenger numbers increased in 2013: in Galway city, by 9.3%, and in Cork city, by 8.2%. That followed on from rises of 7.2% and 1.9% in Galway and Cork, respectively, in 2012. Also, Cork, Galway and Limerick will have public bike schemes operational in the autumn of this year. As the committee will be aware, we secured sponsorship from Coca-Cola for those schemes.

In Cork city, investment over the coming years will focus on the city centre and a limited number of key bus and cycling corridors linking the city centre with the county metropolitan area. Regarding Cork county within the metropolitan area, it is intended to concentrate investment in Douglas which has a population of nearly 18,000, one of the strategic areas identified by the local authority, rather than dilute the investment programme on a widely dispersed basis.

In Galway, a large number of walking and cycling improvements are planned along with further developing the bus prioritisation enhancements that have been implemented in the city. Galway has a transportation unit which is well placed to plan all of this. Also, at present there is a good walking share in Galway city and this, with the public bikes scheme, will greatly enhance the cycling aspect of transport there.

Limerick city has been designated as a smarter travel demonstration area by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and is receiving substantial funding for sustainable travel projects. The fund that we administer will be used for complementary bus priority and for cycling and pedestrian safety schemes that are not included in the Department's separate programme. We will liaise closely with the Department on that.

In Waterford, bus related investment will be on improvements to the key corridors to the city centre, to Waterford Institute of Technology, WIT, the industrial zone and employment area to the west of the city, and Waterford General Hospital, which are the key nodes of transport and the key employers. Cycling routes will also be developed. Waterford is also a city that can support cycling well because of its scale.

The accessibility grant funds I mentioned will be used in the main to improve access to bus and rail stations and to grant aid wheelchair accessible taxis, which is a new initiative we will announce today.

I thank Mr. Murphy and Mr. Creegan for the presentation. I welcome the progress that is being made. The link up between Cabra and St. Stephen's Green is important. I am glad to see that Dawson Street is being included because that would be handy for the likes of myself, from Broombridge, parking in Cabra and making my way here. That is a good development. Mr. Murphy mentioned business and tourism will not be affected and it should create 800 jobs. Is that figure accurate? I accept there will be spin-offs, in terms of other shops.

One of the big issues for me is taxi ranks, particularly in O'Connell Street, such as the Gresham Hotel rank. Has the NTA come to a decision with the local authority to put a rank on O'Connell Street? Whether on either side of the street, even it wraps around the corner and comes onto O'Connell Street, it is important there is a taxi presence for the drivers. I note the suggestion the rank could go down by the side of Clerys, or somewhere like that, and bring it around the corner. Has the NTA looked at that?

On the bus rapid transit service Mr. Murphy mentioned, there was considerable consultation on the project itself. There is a second round of consultation. Perhaps he could tell us when that will take place because I would be interested in looking at that in terms of the airport issue. Mr. Murphy will recall that Metro north was one of the big issues in my area and this is now replacing that project. I want to get a feel for it.

The Phoenix Park tunnel has been mentioned for years and we are only getting back to it now. I do not know how many presentations I got over the years about the Phoenix Park tunnel that has been ideal. Can Mr. Murphy give us a rundown on it? What type of service will it provide?

Will it be heavy rail and how will it link up? I would like to hear about that.

Passenger numbers on buses have increased dramatically in Dublin, Galway and Cork. Dublin Bus is recruiting drivers, which is very welcome. Quite a few have been recruited and there are to be more. That this is occurring makes me more annoyed about the putting out to tender of routes in the near future. I refer to the 10% plan. Literally 100% of services in Waterford city will have been put to tender. Mr. Murphy will say the existing bus service in Waterford can tender but with the progress being made on bus numbers, I completely disagree with the whole trend.

What is the position on parking and loading bays for businesses along O'Connell Street? Will there be further curtailment of ordinary traffic on the street, thereby affecting the flow of taxis? Will buses be curtailed further on the street? I want to get a picture of how this will be handled.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

I will answer everything except the question on the taxi ranks, which will be handled by Mr. Creegan, who is intimately involved in the project and who managed the taxi regulation.

With regard to jobs, the figure of 800 was related to the construction period. It was not a case of any spin-off economic benefit in the city. The figure would still be a robust figure. It represented all the contractors, subcontractors, labour suppliers, providers, designers, etc.

The Deputy is quite right that the next stage for bus rapid transit is public consultation. It will probably be in late September for the Swords-city centre route, in respect of which we have finalised what we believe will be the corridor. We have dealt with all the issues raised at the last consultation. The Blanchardstown-UCD route will be dealt with in December, and the Clongriffin-Tallaght route will not be addressed until next year.

With regard to bus services and tendering, the Deputy mentioned recruitment by Dublin Bus. When we spoke about 10%, we felt there would be growth in the market and that the impact on Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann would be such that the growth would limit any losses if they were not to win the 10%. That is starting to materialise now and I am very pleased there is further growth in passenger numbers this year.

We have some indicative service patterns for the Phoenix Park tunnel. What we could do is take two of the services that currently terminate in Heuston and run them through to the city centre. We could add in two more services. The indicative pattern at present is that there could be four services per hour running through from the Kildare rail line not only to the city centre but also to Grand Canal Dock. There has been a big shift in employment to the latter area, which is now a considerable area of employment. People have a desire to get there. The proposal would greatly grow the numbers on the line. We believe the cost of running the additional service will be met by revenue and that the passengers would get a much better service.

Is the tunnel in good shape? During previous presentations, some said it was and others said it was not.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

Yes. The tunnel is in very good condition. Only minor works are needed on it and trains go through it at present. The track itself was renewed in 1998. At a maximum, we have €12 million to spend overall on the line to get it ready for passenger services. It is in very good condition.

With regard to businesses, loading and parking, when the cross-city Luas is operational, the economic life of the city will be able to carry on, as planned. Businesses and the retail sector can be served and car parks can be accessed. There will be appropriate traffic movement to allow that, in addition to appropriate loading movements. With regard to buses on O'Connell Street, there is no doubt that we must examine the service patterns of Dublin Bus to 2017. There is no point in having buses replicate the exact same service that the cross-city Luas will provide. When the green and red Luas lines were installed, there was a reconfiguration of bus services to match that. Ultimately, the service offering will be better for the public but it may be that people will use light rail rather than bus services for certain routes. One of the challenges in Dublin is not the radial services into the city centre but the fact that we had to make some cuts to services to peripheral local areas around Dublin. These are services we would like to reintroduce. The orbital services around Dublin are actually the ones that require a lot of growth.

I will hand over to Mr. Creegan, who will talk about taxi ranks.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

In regard to the taxi rank on O'Connell Street, known as the Gresham rank, the arrangements for its replacement when Luas cross-city becomes operational in 2017 comprise an open issue. It is not fully resolved yet. Dublin City Council, whose elected members will make the final decision on it, has done a lot of work on exploring all the various options. Some of the options include exactly what the Deputy suggested, a feeder rank on Cathal Brugha Street feeding onto a short rank on O'Connell Street close to the Gresham Hotel. It is still to be determined whether this is the optimal approach. It is certainly one of the ones that looks promising at this point. It will be a decision for the council in due course.

Is it an option when the rank is closed?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

That is correct. We need to have a plan in place for the taxi rank replacement when the Luas becomes operational. Most of the other ranks are sorted out. Many additional night-time rank spaces will be provided on the back of this arrangement. The one that still has to be resolved is the rank on O'Connell Street. While there are alternatives, the best one still has to be settled on.

Mr. Creegan confused me. He referred to when the works will be completed. The issue concerns what is identified for O'Connell Street during the works. There needs to be a space for taxi drivers on O'Connell Street. Will we be without a taxi presence on the street?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

Our belief is that, during the full construction period, we will be able to keep at least part of the taxi rank operational.

On O'Connell Street?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

On O'Connell Street. We have an alternative location identified for the part of the rank that may have to be moved during the construction period. It is on Marlborough Street, which I realise some taxi drivers do not find attractive. However, during construction we will have a presence on O'Connell Street. We have to sort out what the final arrangement will be after construction.

I welcome Mr. Murphy and Mr. Creegan to the meeting. The main reason we invited them here is to discuss the city centre Luas works. However, there are wider issues to be discussed also. This is a good opportunity to discuss them. With regard to the Luas construction around College Green and on to Nassau Street, we are really contemplating a city centre construction site. I live in Raheny and travel across the city every day. Frequently I travel through the corridor in question. It is very problematic for pedestrians because the construction worker is actually on the footpaths also. There are very narrow passageways and barriers. A pedestrian needs to be quite wide awake when walking between College Green and Nassau Street. There are many tourists around and it may be confusing for them. Therefore, I am concerned about the safety aspect of the works. I am also concerned about the timescale for completion.

I was interested in what the delegation had to say about the construction of the Luas track down Dawson Street. Originally, it was proposed that there would be no Luas stop there for people going to the northside. As someone who lives on the northside, I believe that would be unacceptable. I am glad to see the delegates are working on determining the location for a stop. I do not know why somebody would have objected to one. I believe it would be in the interest of the commercial traders in the area to have a stop at the location originally proposed. I am glad this has been resolved.

I am glad to see that with the opening of the Rosie Hackett Bridge much of the pressure has been relieved, but only buses, cyclists and pedestrians cross the bridge. It does not have an impact on any other traffic trying to get around the city.

The Dublin City Manager is talking about extra cycle lanes on the quays. I am not opposed to cycle lanes because they encourage people to cycle, but I question the timing of having two cycle lanes on the quays when all of the other work is ongoing, including Luas construction work in particular. Whether we like it or not, there will be disruption for some time into the future; it would be better, therefore, to do one thing at a time. I am not sure if Mr. Murphy has a role in that regard, but I question the timing.

Mr. Murphy also raised the issue of rapid transit projects, including the Clongriffin to Tallaght route. Clongriffin is in my constituency and there is a bus service towards Tallaght. When the rapid transit project is implemented, will it mean an increased frequency of traffic? There is also a DART station in Clongriffin, but many people who use it complain about the frequency of services and the fact that not all trains stop there. It is a continuous local issue and people would find it more convenient if services were more frequent. However, others will need to use the bus service and one complements the other.

Mr. Murphy referred to heavy rail and the opening of the Phoenix Park tunnel. It is a long time since I travelled in a train through the tunnel, but I understand it is used by engines and coaches. It would be interesting if Mr. Murphy could arrange to bring members of the committee through it. As there are concerns about the condition of tunnel, perhaps a trip through it might be organised some day.

A heavy rail link with the airport from Howth Junction has been mooted a number of times. Irish Rail has made a number of proposals in that regard, but I do not think the project has reached approval stage. People living in Swords are concerned that if it were to go ahead, they would not have a metro service, but I do not see how one would exclude the other. Most international airports are served by mainline rail systems linked with the capital city. It would make sense, therefore, to have a mainline rail connection at Dublin Airport with links with Cork, Belfast, Galway and elsewhere. I would like to know Mr. Murphy's views on this suggestion.

Mr. Murphy also referred to the Luas. The number of accidents is a source of concern. There have been a number of serious accidents in the Abbey Street-O'Connell Street area. Recently there was a fatal accident when a car collided with a Luas tram. It went up on the footpath and a woman who happened to live in my constituency was killed. Are motorists failing to take care at traffic lights or is the current traffic light system insufficient to warn motorists of the dangers if they try to crash red lights when a tram is coming? In the recent O'Connell Street case, the inquiry found that the driver of the Luas tram had been at fault. This raises the question of how much safety training drivers receive. It is unacceptable that such accidents can happen, especially given the number of passengers on a Luas tram. On one occasion, when a Luas tram collided with a bus, a number of passengers on the bus were injured. There continues to be a safety problem, particularly in the Abbey Street-O'Connell Street area where there are many pedestrians. This matter needs to be examined.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

The Deputy's first point on pedestrian safety is valid. Bus companies make a great input in the movement of people throughout the city. They travel all routes all of the time and their drivers notice where the pinch points and danger spots are. We feed this information back to the contractors and the RPA. We ensure visibility for drivers, particularly where there are hoardings.

We have a big role to play in providing extra cycle lanes. Essentially, we fund all cycle lanes in the city and have a cycle plan. Cyclists need greater safety, particularly in the core city area. We have to develop this option, but nothing will come to fruition and reach construction before the Luas project has been completed. If we were to do such work, it would probably be at the extremities, not in the city centre core. We have yet to decide on the final plan along the quays.

There will be an increased frequency with the rapid bus transit system. The purpose of the investment in the Clongriffin area is to have a four to five minute bus frequency rate.

I will examine the question raised by the Deputy concerning the DART, including stoppage patterns at Clongriffin and users' needs there. I will correspond on the matter separately through the committee because I do not know enough about it.

It would be a good idea for members of the committee to take a trip through the Phoenix Park tunnel because it would assuage fears they might have. It would also show them what a great facility that direct link could provide. We will talk about arranging a visit for members of the committee.

The Deputy mentioned the heavy rail spur to the airport from Howth Junction. I referred to a comprehensive study of the north Fingal area, including Swords and the airport. It will include an examination of the heavy rail spur, as well as the old metro north corridor. It will also look at extending the Luas cross-city or any other light rail solution, as well as the role of the rapid bus transit system. We will, therefore, look at the gamut of possible projects, with nothing being ruled out at this stage. Because of the extent of the work involved, however, it will take up to January 2015 to complete.

The reasons for the accidents at Luas-bus interfaces are multifaceted. As regards the level of awareness of drivers at Luas signals, the Deputy will know about the launch of a new campaign to make drivers aware of the safety implications and the need not to break lights. The campaign was launched in conjunction with the Road Safety Authority. There have already been 100,000 hits on the YouTube video, which reflects a remarkable level of interest. It is not the only tool one should use, but we are all trying to find ways of getting the message across to take as much care as possible when travelling through the city.

Will Mr. Murphy respond to the point about the Dawson Street Luas stop?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

On why people objected?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

I will ask Mr. Creegan to answer that question.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

People have different concerns. There were businesses adjacent to the stop which had concerns about how it would impact on them. An Bord Pleanála took these views into account and made the decision not to permit the stop, as then constituted. The revised stop is at a different location on the street. I think we have addressed all of the issues raised.

I welcome Mr. Murphy and Mr. Creegan and thank them for enlightening us on what is happening in the Dublin transport network and around the rest of Ireland. It is long overdue and there is an exciting future, particularly in Dublin.

I have a question on the 25 cellars that have been filled in. How have they been filled in? Is compensation due to the owners of premises whose cellars have been filled in, or does it involve a compulsory fill-in order per se? What is the ongoing process for cellars that have not been identified? How quickly will the National Transport Authority be able to identity cellars that must be filled in in the near future?

Deputy Seán Kenny referred to the cycle lane. While we welcome the initiative to increase the usage of cycle lanes and bicycle transport into and out of the city, the north quays are already a serious bottleneck. I come to the office that way in the morning and the traffic can be backed up all the way to Chapelizod. It has already been reduced to one lane of traffic as the bus lane is there. What consultation process goes on before deciding to introduce two cycle lanes in and out of the city? Are the Road Safety Authority and the motor industry included in that?

One hears a great deal about the rowdy element on the Luas and DART lines. Some young people are afraid of their lives to take the DART or Luas in and out of the city. What security measures are in place to ensure less rowdy behaviour takes place on the lines?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

On the cycle lane on the north quays, yes, it is a balance between all the interests. The acid test we use at the moment is whether one would put one's 12 year old child cycling unaccompanied on the quays. One would not because it is not safe. Evidently, we must do something. In doing something, we must ensure we keep traffic and bus movements working in the city. The challenge is to find the right scheme. We have four schemes in play. We ran them over the last year in consultation with business groups, gardaí and the bus operators to establish whether we could refine them. We have the four and will engage in public consultation on them this year so that the public can see the challenges we face. There is no easy solution, but we cannot do nothing. That is what we have to do, but I take the Senator's point.

The operators of both the Luas and the DART lines operate a security programme. They have security officers and drivers have phone links back to base, as well as relationships with the Garda. Sometimes problems arise despite all of these arrangements. It is something of which the operators are keenly aware. Particularly on the Luas, a great deal of intervention took place and security was increased on one line for a period in the early days when it opened. That was very successful. It is a matter we keep an eye on.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

There were actually 330 cellars filled in, which is quite a lot. The contract was carried out by digging narrow trenches along the street to a certain depth. If there is a cellar there, it is found as part of the excavation. As soon as it is found, a hole is put in the roof and a camera is put down to ensure there is no reason people could not enter into it. Eventually, the hole is enlarged, someone goes down and surveys the interior, which may have archaeological features, and the cellar is then filled with a weak concrete mix.

In terms of compensation, many of these cellars are severed from old buildings which existed decades ago. In those cases, compensation does not need to be paid. In cases where the cellars are associated with buildings, a nominal compensation may have to be paid. Effectively, the act of digging trenches along the roads has ensured that we have found most of the cellars. We might find the odd one or two in places we have missed, but we are satisfied that we have found most of them at this stage.

Have there been any archaeological findings that have been worth anything?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

No. There are always things found, but there has been nothing significant.

On security on the Luas, there are concerns about anti-social behaviour and, in particular, pickpocketing on the route from Heuston Station to the city centre. When tourists get off the train at Heuston, they have their backpacks with cameras and wallets. Often, pickpocketing takes place on the Luas. I acknowledge that there are warnings about it. It is very problematic as a person can step off the street and into a Luas carriage and then get off again, whereas to get on a train, the person must enter the station and pass through a barrier. It is easier for someone to pickpocket and escape on the Luas. Is the operator intensifying its efforts in this area? It is bad publicity when a tourist is robbed coming to Dublin. He or she will go home and tell people. It is something that needs to be watched.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

I might come back with a short note on the measures in place, the patterns and our consciousness of the problem.

Have there been many objections to the bus rapid transport projects from private operators? I ask because we had correspondence from Swords Express at one point.

According to the figures given on investment, €65 million is to be invested in light rail in 2018, which is after its expected completion. Mr. Murphy might comment on that, as the project is due for completion in 2017.

I am one of the only rural Deputies here, but looking at the investment up to 2018, I note that it comes to approximately €1 billion in Dublin. There is an allocation of €14 million for the cities of Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford. There is no mention of rural areas. Obviously, the main centre of population is here in Dublin, but is the NTA open to the accusation that there is little or no investment in transport for almost 3 million of our population? I will be the devil's advocate on that.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

A number of private operators raised serious concerns about bus rapid transit. However, they were based on the misunderstanding that somehow they would be frozen out of the bus lanes. In fact, we will confirm in the next round of consultation that these are bus lanes for those who are legally entitled to be in bus lanes. We are trying to design the lanes and the stops so that the general bus movement will be there, but bus rapid transit will be able to operate at a higher frequency with fewer stops, thereby passing by buses which are pulled in at existing stops. The concern that has been raised is not a real one, therefore. I hope we will be able to get that across to them.

On the €65 million out to 2018, as with any construction project, one will have a tail payment - that is, the final release of payments on satisfaction with the project. That is what the allocation is solely due to.

On the point about investment, I note that the one programme I did not cover was the rail safety and maintenance programme, which covers the whole rail network across the State. The budget for that is approximately €100 million per annum, or €500 million over the relevant five-year period. One must look at the total transport sector and infrastructure taking account of that. We would like the regional cities programme to grow. The local authorities are particularly motivated to consider the options now, including bus, cycling and walking. We will be able to make a strong case to the Government that we should increase the programme. A key thing for rural Ireland is the subsidy for services. That is what keeps lightly used services on the ground and available to people. It is almost more important than infrastructure, in fact, and it is one programme we want to protect. The reconfiguration of rural transport and making it as efficient as possible is part of serving rural Ireland as best we can.

Are taxis always entitled to use bus lanes? In other countries the arrangements are somewhat different.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

Taxis can use all bus lanes other than contra-flow bus lanes.

I asked a question about the growth in services. The fact that passenger numbers on buses and rail increased recently is very welcome. It is a very welcome sign. It shows that the economy may be improving. There was a sharp decline in people using buses because people were out of work but that trend has been reversed, which is a very hopeful sign that will probably lead to a growth in bus and rail services generally.

Mr. Murphy mentioned that subsidies in rural Ireland are more important because of lightly used services. Are not subsidies given in Dublin as well?

Mr. Gerry Murphy

Yes, the Chairman is quite right. Subsidies are given in Dublin. The subsidy to Dublin Bus is about €60 million while the subsidy to Bus Éireann and Irish Rail is about €150 million. There is a preponderance for greater subsidy outside Dublin. However, the Deputy is quite correct in that subsidies are found everywhere.

Does Deputy O'Donovan wish to come in?

My apologies for being late. I was at another meeting. I was glad to see when I was coming in that Mr. Murphy was flying the flag for rural Ireland. I will return to an issue I have raised here previously. It looks like I will continue to raise it. I have now become something of a lightning conductor for people who have clear evidence that the small public service vehicles, SPSV, knowledge test is away with the fairies. It is the best example of a test that is designed for people to fail. If the leaving certificate curriculum was like the current SPSV knowledge test, there would be national uproar. I know of somebody who was asked a question in the knowledge test that related to which street a pub was located on. The pub in question closed down six years ago and there is no pub of that name in the city of Limerick. I have asked about this issue here previously and it seems, as a previous occupant of this House said, to be like playing handball against a haystack. The ball never comes back.

I genuinely believe that the knowledge test for SPSVs - people trying to drive hackneys in limited rural areas - is an absolute farce. It is designed for people to fail. I will not be convinced otherwise until such time as the knowledge test reflects the area in which the person operates. Again, I will use the example of the town of Abbeyfeale. If people are looking to get a hackney licence anywhere between the villages of Glin through Athea and down into Abbeyfeale, they will not be asked anything about Knocknagoshel, Duagh, Lixnaw or anywhere in the Listowel area but they will be asked about places 50 or 60 miles way from them in Doon, Oola and Kilbeheny, which is practically beside Mitchelstown - areas where they will never take up a fare. The answer I am constantly being given is that they can apply for the rural hackney licence, which is a very limited licence that is not the same thing. It is not a hackney licence as we would know it.

Why is there an absolute aversion to testing people on the area they are going to serve rather than an area we know they will not serve? I know of no hackney drivers in the west Limerick area being called into Limerick city to collect fares and drop people off. If the NTA could show me an example of a hackney driver from Abbeyfeale, Mountcollins or Newcastle West who is receiving calls from Limerick city to drop people off there, I would accept the validity of knowing which direction the traffic in Roches Street runs. However, until such time as someone can actually show me that this system is fit for purpose, I think it is absolutely ludicrous. God help people down in Goleen, Schull or Allihies who are trying to pass the Cork knowledge test because they will be asked about places in Fermoy, Mitchelstown or Kilworth. People are half way to Dublin when they are in Fermoy on the way from Goleen but they are expected to have knowledge about it. It is absolutely ludicrous. When are we going to arrive at a situation where a person is tested on the functional area rather than on this notional area of a county? We have seen in the Local Government Reform Act 2014 how notional areas of counties can disappear. South Tipperary has disappeared so now a person in Newcastle in south Tipperary on the Waterford border is expected to know about places up near Birr, Riverstown and Borrisokane. These places are over 100 miles away. What are we going to do about it?

With the greatest respect, I do not think that the halfway house rural hackney licence is the solution because it is a limiting licence. It is basically saying to people that we know there is a problem, we know there are not enough hackneys in the area and we know that we are putting a knowledge test in front of them that they will never be able to pass so rather than change the knowledge test and examine the person on an area they will cover, we will go to a halfway house. I do not think that is acceptable.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

I would hate Deputy O'Donovan to get the idea that we are not listening to what he is saying because he has raised valid points. The difficulty lies in trying to find the answer and deal with his concerns. I previously mentioned that we inherited a third party IT provider which did the knowledge test, which made it very difficult for us to change the questions without huge costs to the State. We have changed that. We have built our IT system and are reviewing the bank of questions.

I agree with the Deputy that the rural hackney licence is not a solution. It does not enter into the debate at all and should not, therefore, be seen as an answer to anything like that.

The last time I raised this issue, the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport told me in the Dáil that this was the solution. It is not a solution.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

It is not the solution. The nub of it is what should be the functional area and how we can police and regulate the functional area. Mr. Creegan has done a piece of work with the taxi advisory committee. Perhaps he would acquaint Deputy O'Donovan with that?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

We have spoken to the chairman of the advisory committee and asked him whether he would take on this issue. The advisory committee is much more than just the industry. In fact, non-industry members make up the preponderance of the committee. We have asked the chairman to examine what might be a solution to this issue. We will provide him with all the information he will need to tease out the issue. We would like to get the committee's feedback regarding what it would see as the potential solution to this.

Is there a timeframe for when proposals will be brought back?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

We are referring it to the committee and it is in its hands.

Has the NTA set a timeframe regarding when the committee must report back to it?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

No, it is an independent body so it will report back when whenever it teases it out.

I will continually raise this issue every time the NTA comes in here during the period I am here. It will not go away. I welcome the fact that the NTA has put this request in place but I would ask that a time frame be put in place. Otherwise, it will go on the never-never and it will never be done.

Mr. Gerry Murphy

Okay.

Can I ask one other question? Ordnance Survey Ireland is a fantastic public institution that can divide the country into workable grids for State utilities, the ESB and Bord Gáis and can provide the NTA with excellent mapping. I would prefer if some kind of zoning was done across the country. We should take out the county boundaries and look at where people actually live.

Let us take the example of from Charlestown in County Mayo where the Chairman is from or other towns in the Border counties. In some cases, county boundaries run down the middle of the street. Bunclody in County Wexford is an example. If one is living in Bunclody and half of the street is in County Carlow, one is not expected to know where Mary Murphy lives up the hill but one is expected to know the townlands on which the Hook lighthouse is located, which are probably 100 miles away. A bit of common sense here would not go amiss.

I welcome the fact that the NTA will do something about it but I would ask that a fairly rigid and realistic timeframe be put in place and that the NTA would report back to the committee as to what is happening. I know that jobs in rural areas are being lost because of this knowledge test. I am convinced of it. I know of five people with offers of jobs at the moment but who cannot accept them because they have been asked in knowledge tests about which street a certain pub in Limerick is located on when that pub has been closed for the past six years.

That point is well made.

Due to the fact that the NTA is Dublin-based, it tends to see all that is going on there. It does seem disproportionate to me that every time we come here, we are talking about Dublin. Do we have plans for each of the main cities like Cork, Waterford or Limerick that need to be brought forward? I am not saying the funding is there but have we looked at each of these cities? Have we any information that could be sent up? What proposals are needed for Cork, Limerick, etc., because I would like to have a look at them? I am the party spokesperson on transport.

The focus seems to be on Dublin and I do not have a good picture of what else is required. It would be useful if the delegates gave us a presentation on other cities and their plans for the future, rather than focusing totally on Dublin.

I am not defending the NTA, but I take issue with Deputy Dessie Ellis because I do not think it is entirely Dublin-focused. It knows that I am anything but a cheerleader for it; I acknowledge, however, that it has done considerable work in rural parts of Limerick. It is not solely an urban-based organisation.

I was asking for my own benefit. I have not seen the plans for Cork city or Limerick, for example. That is all I am saying. I do not dispute work is being done.

The redevelopment of Colbert Station in Limerick is most welcome.

That is a positive note on which to conclude. I thank Mr. Murphy and Mr. Creegan for updating us on the NTA's work programme and other issues. We look forward to continuing our engagement with them. On Wednesday, 2 July, we will discuss the issue of rural broadband with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.50 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 2 July 2014.
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