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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Nov 2021

Irish Aviation Authority: Chairperson Designate

No apologies have been received. Our first session an engagement with the chairperson designate of the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, Ms Rose Hynes. The purpose of the meeting is to engage with the chairpersons designate of the IAA and An Post, discuss their strategic priorities for their roles and their views on the challenges currently facing their organisations. For this session, on behalf of the committee, I welcome the chairperson designate of the IAA, Ms Rose Hynes, and Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile, regulator with the IAA.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If a statement is potentially inflammatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, the witness will be directed to discontinue his or her remarks. It is imperative that witnesses comply with any such direction. There are some limitations to parliamentary privilege for witnesses attending remotely from outside the Leinster House campus. They may not benefit from the same level of immunity to legal proceedings that a witness physically present does. Witnesses participating in this session from a jurisdiction outside the State are advised that they should also be mindful of domestic law and how it may apply to the evidence they give. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

For anyone watching this meeting, members and witnesses now have the option of being physically present in the committee room or joining the meeting remotely via Microsoft Teams. That will change next week. We very much welcome that our guests have come into Leinster House. They may be the only witnesses to attend in person for a long time. It is a far better experience for witnesses and members when witnesses are physically present. I thank our guests for attending.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via Microsoft Teams, prior to making his or her contribution to the meeting, to confirm that he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus. If attending in the committee room, people are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19. I strongly advise the practising of good hand hygiene and that people leave at least one vacant seat between them and others in attendance. People should also always maintain an appropriate level of social distancing during and after the meeting. Masks should be worn at all times during the meeting except when speaking.

I invite Ms Hynes to make her opening statement.

Ms Rose Hynes

I thank the Chairman and members for inviting me to attend. I am delighted to have been appointed chairman of the IAA on an interim basis on 12 January 2021 by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan. I am accompanied by Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile, the IAA regulator and CEO designate of the new IAA, who was appointed on 1 January 2021. He has not previously met the committee.

In addition to my day-to-day responsibilities as chairman, I was requested on appointment to focus on guiding the IAA’s regulatory reform process. We have made significant progress to date in preparing for the restructuring of the IAA. I have included my background and professional experience details in the statement submitted to the committee. I have over 30 years’ aviation experience across all aspects of the industry, as a senior executive and at board level. Additionally, I have multisectoral experience in corporate restructuring and comprehensive experience in board and corporate governance as chair and non-executive director.

The Air Navigation and Transport Bill will result in significant institutional change when enacted. It will ensure Irish aviation continues to be served by a regulatory regime which is internationally respected. The Bill provides that the commercial air navigation functions of the IAA will transfer to AirNav Ireland, a newly incorporated semi-State company. The IAA will continue to have its primary role as the regulator and will absorb the regulatory functions of the Commission for Aviation Regulation, CAR, to form a single national regulator for aviation. Extensive work continues within the IAA on all practical measures necessary for the separation, in anticipation of the Bill becoming law. This is no small task as the largest part of the current IAA, its staff and resources, is transferring into AirNav Ireland. Currently the IAA employs over 700 staff in six locations across Ireland. In addition to the effective discharge of my statutory functions, the board’s focus is to ensure the timely delivery of the transition arrangements. This includes appropriate oversight of decision-making, governance, financial preparations and the implementation of HR strategy. We have made significant progress and are working to ensure the necessary conditions are in place for vesting day.

On the air accident investigation unit, AAIU final report, speaking personally and on behalf of the IAA, I again express our deepest sympathy to the families, friends and colleagues of the four crew members of Irish Coast Guard R116, Captain Dara Fitzpatrick, Captain Mark Duffy , winchman Paul Ormsby and winchman Ciarán Smith, who tragically lost their lives while undertaking a rescue mission on 14 March 2017. We have welcomed the publication of the AAIU’s independent and comprehensive report into the accident, which we believe will contribute to the prevention of future aviation accidents. We fully accept the recommendations addressed to the IAA, are in the process of fully implementing them and will verify our progress in this regard to the AAIU. As the aviation regulator for Ireland, the safety of air crew and passengers is our number one priority. We are fully committed to working with all stakeholders to achieve this aim, including the implementation of all safety recommendations in the AAIU report.

I will speak on industrial relations, IR, matters. Following the outcome of the mediation process, the IAA and staff representative bodies are working to implement the several recommendations which are contained in a confidential report from the mediator, Mr. Kieran Mulvey. All recommendations will be actioned by the IAA and some have already been actioned. It is important to note that the safety culture and commitment to safety of the IAA air navigation safety provider has remained robust through this period of IR issues.

Concerning aviation recovery, in 2020 and 2021 the reduction of traffic handled by the IAA was nearly 60% relative to 2019. I was about to say we are experiencing a recovery but the problem is that now with the fourth wave, it is difficult to know where we are going. Members might have seen Michael O'Leary saying airlines are in for a fraught period between now and the new year.

On the financial side, Covid-19 directly impacted the IAA’s performance in 2020 and 2021. The group reported a modest operating profit in 2020 of €2.1 million, compared to a profit of €27.8 million in 2019.

I will finish on something positive. New opportunities include drones, which represent the potential to be the next great disruptive technology in our lives. The IAA recognised the growth of drones early and in 2015 Ireland was one of the first countries in the world to start registering drones and authorising operations. Other areas of opportunity, as I see them, include the production of sustainable aviation fuel in Ireland and the digitisation of aviation records.

My role as chairman is to lead and support the board and management and continue to focus on guiding the IAA’s regulatory restructuring process. I thank my colleagues on the board and across the IAA for their support and assistance over the past number of years. I thank members for their attention and am happy to take their questions.

I thank Ms Hynes and Mr. Ó Conghaile for attending. I wish to put a number of things to them. I spoke in recent days to some IAA workers and asked if there were any points they wished to put. Their response was that they are happy that mediation is finally under way and that many of the problems that were being buried and whose existence, in some quarters, was being denied are now being looked at and examined independently by Kieran Mulvey. That is a good thing. They basically said they had no questions. When a process is under mediation, it is important we adhere to that but I have my own question arising from it, particularly given the looming separation of the company at the end of March 2022. Will the big issues, which are IR and pension issues, be resolved at that point?

Ms Rose Hynes

They will be resolved. They will have to be resolved. It is a condition we have set ourselves because the legislation provides that after the separation, everybody has to end up in the same position they were in before it in relation to arrangements, including pension arrangements. We are having extensive discussions with various staff members and representatives on pensions, in particular, as well as conditions and everything to do with that.

Has the IAA not sought any extension to that end of March date? Is it happy to work in the timeframe?

Ms Rose Hynes

It happens when the legislation is passed and when the Minister decides. The Minister has to decide and declare a vesting day.

Stemming from that, will the corporate structure changes to the IAA proposed in the Air Navigation and Transport Bill bring about cultural changes in the IAA?

Ms Rose Hynes

Cultural changes will be required of necessity because there are two new entities with specific mandates. The AirNav company will become more and more commercial and the new IAA will deal with regulation and all matters associated with that. One of the early functions of each of the two new boards will be to decide what is required by way of culture in order to deliver the mandate of each of those two companies. We have already discussed that at the IAA board, have decided that it needs to happen and will pass on that we believe it should be done almost immediately. That will involve the two CEOs. Mr. Ó Conghaile is the CEO designate of the new IAA and Peter Kearney is the CEO designate of the AirNav company.

I met Peter Kearney in the D'Olier Street headquarters a few weeks back at the height of the IR situation. It is an impressive headquarters but it struck me it is very removed from where the real action of the IAA is happening Most of the authority's workforce is based in Shannon, with many more in Ballygirreen, Cork, Dublin, Knock etc. Would the authority consider coming out of Dublin city and basing themselves below in Shannon? I met Ms Hynes below. She has spent much time down in Shannon. I am sure it would be personally advantageous to her to be there. There was a good day there a few weeks ago when all the people from headquarters were down. Someone remarked to me as those people left, not as a personal comment but as a matter of fact, that it was a long time since they had seen all the senior management down there. They should consider, when the separation occurs, bringing senior management back to County Clare where most of the workforce is based.

Ms Rose Hynes

I hear what the Deputy says. There are 700 staff members in the IAA as it is today and 332, I think, are in the various places in County Clare. That is a matter for each of the two new companies.

I ask that Ms Hynes say at board level that this was raised at the Oireachtas committee and that it be discussed internally.

Ms Rose Hynes

I will.

I have two final points. The first is on the amendments put forward vis-à-vis the Air Navigation and Transport Bill. Four amendments were outright refuted. They came from the Irish Air Line Pilots Association, IALPA. Was there a reason the IAA objected to those?

Ms Rose Hynes

We did not object in principle to them.

It was just the fact that they would be enshrined in legislation. I understand that this matter is under discussion between the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Hildegarde Naughton, and Members of the Seanad. Hopefully, that will come to a conclusion. I do not want to say anything to interfere with that process.

I respect the fact it is moving through the Houses. That is important.

Those four elements were coming from various concern angles. In Ms Hynes's time, I would like if IAA could respond giving a reason under each amendment as to why the IAA feels it is being catered for or why it should not be accepted. It would be important for us to know that as well by way of reassurance.

Ms Rose Hynes

Mr. Ó Conghaile is the person who has been dealing with that.

I might get one final question in because time is against us. This relates to Rescue 116. Ms Hynes referenced it in her opening statement here today. It was an awful tragedy and a needless loss of life. I am glad that the Department of Transport, the Irish Aviation Authority and many entities are putting their hands up and saying that there were failures and they need to respond to them.

One of the statutory obligations of the IAA is to have up-to-date databases, terrain mapping and modelling available to those who take to our skies and I am glad that is being tackled. It concerns me that while that voluminous body of work is getting under way, there will be many more rescue missions. There will be many more helicopters taking off from Shannon, Sligo, Dublin and elsewhere, and there will be civil flights taking off as well. It concerns me that there may not be the in-house capacity to get to that point from having a weak database to having a full database of charts, maps and terrain modelling. Will the IAA outsource some of that and when does Ms Hynes believe the IAA will have a fully comprehensive set of database maps, records and charges for all of Irish airspace that people need to fly, particularly on rescue missions?

Ms Rose Hynes

Would the Deputy mind if I passed that question to the regulator because he is the person charged, and dealing, with that? Of the 42 recommendations within that report, there are five that apply to us. Mr. Ó Conghaile is specifically dealing with those five recommendations and will be able to answer the Deputy's question.

I thank Ms Hynes.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

I thank the Deputy. First, it is a pleasure to be here to have the opportunity to meet the committee.

Most important, we offer our condolences again to the friends and loved ones of the four crew members who tragically lost their lives in the R116 accident. The Air Accident Investigation Unit, AAIU, has produced a comprehensive, independent and exemplary piece of work which is several hundred pages long. We welcomed the publication of that report. There are 42 recommendations in it in total. Five of those are addressed to the IAA. We fully accept the recommendations and are making progress in the implementation of those recommendations. We will, of course, update the AAIU on our progress over the course of the next number of weeks.

In regard to maps, it is a complex enough area to summarise and there have been some confusing statements about it. I would ask the Deputy to consider two different types of charts. There is one set of charts which are produced by the IAA on behalf of the State. These are visual flight rules, VFR, charts. These are charts that are intended for use in visual flying conditions. These charts specify safe altitude minima for different sectors of airspace. Those charts are provided by the IAA in compliance with International Civil Aviation Organization, ICAO, requirements for these specific VFR charts. The charts provided by the IAA are accurate. The charts provided at the time of the accident included Blackrock - that obstacle. The chart was accurate as to its location and its characteristics and that is reflected in the AAIU report. Those are the charts that it is the obligation of the State to provide.

Within the cockpit - one will remember this was not visual flight rules as this was in the middle of the night and there was poor visibility - the aircraft has other navigational aids which the crew relies on. These aids are provided by third parties and the obstacle, Blackrock, was not included in some of those third party databases.

If I may intervene, the enhanced ground proximity warning system, EGPWS, is what I was angling towards. I respect the point about the visual flying charts. It was specifically the EGPWS which was referenced in the air accident report and which was referenced on multiple occasions in the Dáil Chamber. Where the IAA functionality ties into that, I refer to the deficiencies, how the IAA hopes to address it and, more important, the timeframe because there are many pilots taking to the skies each night wondering whether the kind of terrain mapping that was needed that night out at Blackrock is now in place or when will it be in place.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

To go back to what I said, in terms of the responsibilities of the State and the IAA to produce charts, we fulfil those. Those charts are extant. They are up to date and they are accurate.

The IAA is not and cannot be responsible for ensuring that every geographical feature on those maps is rendered into third party databases. The third party databases are provided by contractors who themselves are approved, not by the IAA but by the European Union Aviation Safety Agency, EASA.

Of course, parking for a moment the direct and immediate responsibilities of the IAA, if we look at this from a broader context what is important for Ireland Inc. is to ensure that these missions are undertaken safely. As I said, there are 42 recommendations to improve the safety performance.

Is there anything in law that requires this navigational equipment within the cockpit Mr. Ó Conghaile is talking about being in compliance and integrated with the IAA's mapping because that is what Mr. Ó Conghaile is implying?

To add to that, Mr. Ó Conghaile is addressing where the IAA is compliant. Could Mr. Ó Conghaile tell us where the IAA is deficient because he is admitting to that? Where is the IAA deficient and how is the IAA addressing it? That is what we want to get to. That is the nub of this.

Is there a lacuna in the regulations of the law between the mapping the IAA is required to provide legally and the equipment that is used at night to navigate within the cockpit of a plane? Is there a lacuna there that it does not require to be in compliance with the IAA's maps?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

If I go back to the question of what were the recommendations from the AAIU for the IAA, there were five such recommendations. We fully accept those recommendations and we are in the process of implementing them. We can go into those in a little more detail.

The issue on the night in the cockpit, I would say, related fundamentally to a number of failings which were identified in the AAIU report. One of them related to the company route guides used. The second identified the fact that the EGPWS that Deputy Cathal Crowe referred to did not contain the obstacle and there were two other navigational sources that did not contain the obstacle.

There is no lacuna, as such, here. The IAA is responsible for the provision of State maps. It provides those maps for visual flight conditions. The aircraft has other navigational sources available to it. The providers of the kit and the providers of those maps are approved by EASA.

Would it be good standard that the equipment should be integrated with the State mapping? Are the IAA's the blueprint in terms of flight paths for planes?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

For a specific purpose only. I will go back to the fact that the maps produced by the IAA on behalf of the State are VFRs, that is, for visual flight rules. What they do is specify safe minimum altitudes for particular sectors. For instrument flight procedures, and that relates to specific approaches to aerodromes, they also give more detail and routings. Those more detailed route procedures relate to, as I said, access to aerodromes. They do not relate to the totality of Irish airspace and you do not have instrument flight procedure rules for the majority of the airspace off the west coast, off the east coast and in the hills.

Many flights are at night, however. I am an ordinary person looking at this matter. Mr. Ó Conghaile is telling us that the IAA's mapping had all the features defined on the maps. That is a given, and everyone accepts that.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

Yes.

Within the equipment, though, there was a failure to identify the particular features where the crash took place. As an ordinary person looking at this situation, I am going to say that there is a lacuna. It follows, as clearly as night follows day, that the same type of safety procedures should be in place, based on the IAA's mapping, at night as during the day. I thought that would be something that the IAA would like to see being in place for all equipment used in aeroplanes, and specifically at night.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

Going back to the point concerning what the charts are used for and the conditions in which they can be used, these are the VFR charts. They specify a minimum altitude for sectors, and they are not for use in poor visibility. In situations of poor visibility, instrument flight procedures are used and those are specified for given routes in and out of aerodromes. We have hundreds of miles of coastline, and thousands of miles when we consider all the inlets and so forth, and they are not designed for that.

We will have to conclude-----

I will come in here, if I can, because this question may elicit the clarity we need. I will conclude on this point. Turning to the IAA's State Safety Plan 2016-2019, which is available on its website, I will read a section-----

I ask the Deputy to be brief, because I have a lot of-----

I will be very brief. This language will make perfect sense to the witnesses. It contains a bit too much jargon for us, but we will have a go. The plan states:

In Ireland, the IAA provides Electronic Terrain And Obstacle Data, ETOD, for use by industry stakeholders, such as GPS and FMS database suppliers. The ETOD helps to eliminate database transfer errors in on-board TAWS [terrain awareness warning systems] equipment and thereby helps minimise [controlled flight into terrain] CFIT occurrences.

I assume that last term, controlled flight into terrain, means collisions. Do the witnesses accept that the IAA's obligations are set out in that section? Are those obligations being fulfilled? This is the matter in essence. I am referring to the authority's own text.

I will allow the to Deputy conclude on this point. Other members can come in on it as well if they wish. Several other members wish to ask questions too.

I am as much to blame as anyone else, and I apologise.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

We provide the charting information that we are required to provide on behalf of the State under ICAO rules. We make that information available to the aviation sector to import into databases used for navigation. It would not be possible for us to analyse every geographical feature of a database to ensure that those maps have been rendered correctly. In the ordinary course of events, what would be expected is that where crews are flying routes and are aware of routes, they would identify obstacles they wish to have charted. We have such a process in place, and we are in discussion with the sector in this regard. Those in the sector ask us if we can map certain things and chart these additional obstacles in certain approach routes, etc. We have a workshop process in that context. We do respond to such requests, and we confirm that we can map such additional features. Typically, however, this process relates to approach routes into aerodromes, which are frequently used routes. It does not relate to areas of the coast that are infrequently used or flown over.

I thank Mr Ó Conghaile and call Senator Horkan.

I hope the Chair might give me some latitude with my time. I do not wish to dwell on the R116 incident. It is technical and a tragic situation, and I want to make other points in my five minutes. Surely, though, if the IAA is the body responsible for aviation safety, there must be rules. If there are no rules, they should be inserted into the legislation to ensure that anybody providing maps to anyone using Irish aerospace must have maps that are accurate. Is that not the most basic requirement of a safety organisation? It is all very well for the IAA to state that it is issuing VFR maps and that other people did not transpose them properly into their systems. Surely, however, it should be a requirement of the legislation that anyone transposing the IAA's maps must bring all the details and all the information concerning dangers and hazards on those maps into the equipment that is being used, and particularly at night when VFR is not that useful.

Does Ms Hynes wish to let Mr. Ó Conghaile deal with this question?

Ms Rose Hynes

Yes, please.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

One of the recommendations of the AAIU on this matter was that the routes used by aircraft routinely, namely, those routes programmed into the flight monitoring system, should specify minimum altitude conditions. What occurred on the night of the R116 tragedy was that the crew were flying a company-specified route and were not aware that at the altitude the aircraft was flying, the route would bring them into collision with the island.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

I ask the Senator to please let me finish. One of the AAIU recommendations is that we, as the regulator, should ensure that any such specified routes include minimum altitude conditions. We are well advanced in ensuring that that recommendation has been implemented by the operator.

That was not the case previously.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

The route details did include the altitude of the obstacle. The company route guide did include that information. Clearly, however, the crew was not aware of it. That is a weakness that must be addressed.

Did the equipment used by the flight crew include that information?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

As we said, several of the navigational sources did not include the obstacle.

Can we not make it a part of the legislation that in future the equipment being used and relied on, and especially at night-time, must include all obstacles? Surely it is the most basic thing for any safety organisation to ensure that obstructions are highlighted on a map and that those obstacles are included in all equipment being relied upon. If that means having to negotiate, navigate and input more data, then so be it. People have lost their lives because their equipment did not warn them of obstacles that were there and that it should have warned them about.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

One of the things we should remind ourselves of is that search and rescue operations are different from other aspects of civil aviation. The AAIU report highlighted that aspect and generated several recommendations to improve the safety performance and the regulatory safety oversight of SAR. We give search and rescue operations several exemptions. One of those includes exemptions from minima that would generally apply to civil aviation. That is because if a search and rescue flight is winching someone out of the sea or conducting another aspect of a rescue operation, then it will be likely that it will be necessary to deviate from the rules of the air. We explicitly give the SAR operator exemptions from the rules of the air.

Returning to the matter of the charts, the chart generated by the State, as with almost everything we do in regulation, is determined by the ICAO. We fulfil that production requirement for those charts. They are VFR charts. As I said, we are in discussions with the sector and we seek to help those involved in the sector. If they ask us to chart these additional features on a particular approach route, then we will do that. Generally speaking, flights are not flying at low altitudes in these areas and the VFR charts we produce specify a minimum safe altitude for the use of those charts. It is important, therefore, not to ask that the charts do more than they are designed to do.

I am not asking that they do. Mr. Ó Conghaile alluded to the fact that the VFR charts showed the obstruction of Blackrock lighthouse. Is that correct?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

That is correct.

Is it correct that the equipment that was being used did not show the obstruction?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

That is correct.

Can we not put into legislation a requirement that equipment used reflects the VFR maps?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

One would not put something relating to that into primary legislation.

How can we make sure the equipment reflects the VFR maps? How do we make sure this is the case with equipment that is being used and relied upon? It is not okay to say we have rules for safety for people in passenger aircraft that just do not apply when people are flying on search and rescue missions. I accept that people might need to fly closer to the ground and all the rest of it.

Senator Horkan, please.

This is important, Chairman.

There is a report on this matter and we must be careful not to attribute blame.

I am not doing so.

The Senator may make a recommendation to the committee that we write to the Minister on that particular point. It is a very good suggestion. Mr. Ó Conghaile is not in his role to provide legislation; he is there to enact it. If the Senator is making a recommendation that the committee write to the Minister-----

I will conclude on this issue. It strikes me that four people have lost their lives who were relying on equipment that did not reflect the maps the IAA had provided. Surely that cannot be allowed to be the case in the future. I will leave it at that for now and move on.

Ms Hynes clearly has an enormous amount of experience in aviation and the IAA is very lucky to have her as its chairperson. I do not think anybody is disputing that. She has great experience in aviation leasing and many other aspects of aviation, including her experience on various boards and so on. As a State, we are lucky she is there. I would like to know the breakdown of the 700 or so staff who are currently in the IAA. How many are going to AirNav Ireland and how many are staying with the authority?

Ms Rose Hynes

There are approximately 125 staff staying in the IAA, with the remainder----

That means 575 or thereabouts are transferring to AirNav Ireland, including the air traffic controllers and so on right across the State.

Ms Rose Hynes

Yes.

I presume nearly all of the 332 staff based in Clare are moving to AirNav Ireland. Is that correct?

Ms Rose Hynes

That is right.

Going back to Deputy Crowe's point, there might be scope for AirNav Ireland being based outside of Dublin. I do not know whether that has been decided or whether it will stay in the same building as the IAA.

Ms Rose Hynes

That has not been decided. It is something for the new companies to decide.

Exactly. Ms Hynes is remaining as the chairperson of the IAA and-----

Ms Rose Hynes

No, my function will cease. I have a specific mandate and it ceases when the separation happens.

Is it intended that Ms Hynes will be the chairperson-designate of the new IAA with its staff of 125 or is that a separate position?

Ms Rose Hynes

There will be a Public Appointments Service competition for the chairmanships of the two new entities. It depends who applies for those roles.

The Bill dealing with AirNav Ireland is coming through the Seanad. When is it likely, or when is it hoped, that the split will take place?

Ms Rose Hynes

There was a point when we thought the legislation might be progressed in time for it to happen by the end of the year. That is not going to happen now. It will take place in the first quarter, possibly at the end of that quarter.

Senator Horkan needs to conclude now.

I did not get a lot of time and I am trying to finish. There are two further points I want to raise that are very relevant.

I have given the Senator huge latitude. He may conclude with one further question. I will bring people back in again at the end of the meeting.

Just to make the point-----

No, do not do that, Senator.

Put your question, Senator. Other members want to contribute. You may come in again on the second round of questions. I have no issue with that. You may put one further question now.

Okay. We are interviewing the chairperson-designate of a company that will no longer exist in three or four months' time. However, that is beside the point. When the chairperson of the Dublin Airport Authority, DAA, appeared before the committee, he made the point that the level of charges the airport was allowed to levy was based on the fact it was dealing with up to 32 million passengers a year. Clearly, it is not seeing those passenger numbers now and the passenger charge is unsustainably low based on current traffic levels. What is happening in terms of liaison between the IAA and the DAA to ensure Dublin Airport is in a position to keep itself going sustainably? What is the IAA's role in facilitating sustainability as part of its economic regulation function? How will it ensure the airport is sustainable into the future?

I ask Ms Hynes to respond as quickly as she can.

Ms Rose Hynes

That is a matter for when the new IAA, which includes the Commission for Aviation Regulation, comes into being after the separation. One of its early tasks will be to look at that issue. I watched the proceedings when Mr. Basil Geoghegan was before the committee and what he said makes commercial sense. I cannot say any more other than that when the separation happens, this issue will be a major matter for consideration.

To conclude, I thank Ms Hynes for performing her role as chairperson since January. She is hoping the position will no longer be there from early in 2022. Perhaps there is scope for her to be involved with either one of the new companies, which I hope will be the case. I thank her for her service.

Ms Rose Hynes

Thank you very much, Senator.

Pardon the pun but the Senator certainly took a long runway there. The next speaker is Senator Buttimer.

It was not as long as that taken by the first member to speak.

I will not get involved in this inter alia dispute. I welcome Ms Hynes and Mr. Ó Conghaile to the meeting. Ms Hynes's suitability for appointment is not in question and I wish her well in her role. She is aware of the committee's overarching discussion with Mr. Geoghegan, who appeared before the committee regarding his reappointment. The issue of sustainability is a huge challenge and cost for the aviation sector that will require expensive infrastructure around sustainable fuelling, electrification of aprons, solar farms and so on. As Mr. Ó Conghaile and Ms Hynes know, the DAA set the limit for charges around the country. Dublin Airport significantly reduced its charges, which had a significant effect on all other airports, including Cork, which can charge adversely. There are insufficient allowances for investment in the area of sustainability and a change is needed to allow for the cost of sustainability initiatives. The current charges do not account for that. Will Ms Hynes comment on whether this issue will be a priority?

Ms Rose Hynes

As I said a minute ago, it will be one of the priority issues to be dealt with by the new IAA and the new regulator once separation happens. I listened to what Mr. Geoghegan had to say when he appeared before the committee and I understood his points. He said he was looking forward, when the separation happens, to engaging with the regulator on this issue.

The unsustainably low level of charges was raised at the committee recently by Mr. Geoghegan. The important point is that there is an implication for the rebuilding of connectivity in a post-Covid world. There needs to some economic regulatory function in that regard.

It is fair to say there is much unhappiness and disquiet regarding the Bill that is coming through the Seanad. I have never experienced as much engagement on legislation by a whole host of people, including air traffic controllers and pilots. Their concerns are a source of worry. I appreciate that Mr. Ó Conghaile has facilitated meetings with us and with the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton. The latter has been more than accommodating of Oireachtas Members in this matter. There are concerns that the Bureau Veritas report on the IAA has not been made public. Is there a commitment to make it available to Members of the Oireachtas or the Minister of State? Will it be made public at all?

Ms Rose Hynes

I am unclear as to which report the Senator is talking about.

I do not mind which one of the witnesses answers.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

There is no reason for that report not to be made available and not to be put into the public domain. We would be happy to do that.

I appreciate Mr. Ó Conghaile's professionalism, sincerity and qualifications. There is a culture within the IAA. He has seen the emails that we have got and he has been involved in different engagements. I have known some pilots and air traffic controllers in my school days and since becoming a politician. They are not normally given to agitation. Will that culture change as a result of the changes proposed in the Air Navigation and Transport Bill?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

I am not sure what the Senator means by culture and cultural change.

Will the proposed corporate structure of the IAA bring about a change of culture in terms of the staff well-being, engagement and safety?

Ms Rose Hynes

I mentioned earlier hat each of the two new entities, the new IAA and the air navigation company, will respectively need to look at their corporate culture in order to deliver their specific functions based on their mandates. The board of the IAA has discussed that recently and said that now is not the time. We cannot decide for the two new entities but it is something we will pass on to the two new entities. We will be saying that we regard it as important that each of the two new entities considers the corporate culture required to deliver their mandates. They cannot just continue with the exact same culture and will need to look at what is required to deliver on their mandates.

Ms Hynes's qualifications are exemplary and second to none. I have every faith in her. In her capacity as chairperson, she will need to take a hands-on approach to drive this change to bring staff with her. It is unusual for someone like Kieran Mulvey to be appointed in the way he was. Given her personal and professional background, Ms Hynes is eminently qualified. Given the importance of connectivity, our aviation sector is pivotal to the country's recovery. In her address to us she mentioned industrial relations matters. I appeal to her to take a hands-on approach in driving change and bringing people with her. There is an element of jaded discontentment among staff and I hope she can change that outlook.

Ms Rose Hynes

I think we are doing just that at the moment through the Kieran Mulvey process. All of that is happening. If employees have issues, those issues are being dealt with. I have every faith in that process and get regular updates back from it. I know it is going very well. I do not just rely on that; I actually talk to employees. Many employees have contacted me and I have arrangements to visit various places. I would have been to many more of them were it not for Covid. I am in touch with people in the various entities.

Senator Buttimer must conclude.

I will conclude on this. Is there confusion over who regulates non-commercial operations with complex motor-powered aircraft, NCC, in Ireland? There seems to be an ongoing issue over whether it is part of the European safety agency. I ask for clarity on that please.

Finally, I thank Ms Hynes for being here. She has my full support. I believe she is eminently qualified. I again appeal to her to be a real driver of change and inclusivity.

Ms Rose Hynes

I hear the Senator. However, I cannot answer his technical question.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

Regarding culture, I have had a long career in a range of different public sector and private sector organisations. One of the things that struck me on joining the IAA at the start of this year was how positive the culture is. I have been really impressed by the depth of expertise of all aspects of the aviation sector within the organisation.

That is not in question. I am saying that pilots and others feel disconnected and removed from the decision-making process. They feel no one is listening to them or engaging with them. That is the point I am making.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

In recent months we have made every effort to talk to staff and the trade unions to ensure that people are comfortable with this restructuring process. In everything we are doing in the restructuring process we are ensuring that we fulfil the requirement in the legislation that nobody's terms and conditions should in any way be adversely affected. That is enshrined in the legislation and we are very much committed to ensuring that is the case.

Can Mr. Ó Conghaile answer the question about the NCC operations?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

There is no confusion there. Different regulations apply to NCC versus air operator certificates, AOC, for bigger commercial outfits. The IAA regulates on the basis of EASA European regulations.

I thank Ms Hynes and Mr. Ó Conghaile for appearing before the committee. I add my voice to what has been said. Obviously, Ms Hynes's CV speaks for itself regarding her ability to do the job, which to a degree is to see the end of an outfit and hopefully the successful creation of two new outfits. Significant work needs to be done on safety given the conversation we have had earlier.

I seek clarity on a technical issue. The visual flight rules, VFR, charts are provided and they have all the necessary details. I do not want to get into the details of legislation. I accept, as the Chairman said earlier, that we can write to the Minister if we identify weaknesses or question marks. That information is then basically imported into an air navigation system and then it is down to the system as to how it deals with that information and whether it garners all the information. All the necessary information regarding somewhere like Black Rock or anywhere else is contained, including the information on proposed minimum flight altitude. I accept that search and rescue is different and allowances need to be made so that we do not make it mandatory. Am I right on that? While I do not want to apportion blame, are we to a degree talking about a systems failure where that information was not garnered within a system?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

The AAIU report deals with this comprehensively. It indicates exactly which navigational sources did and did not contain the information and makes recommendations for the correction of that. Fundamentally what the Deputy is saying is right. We produce a set of charts; it is the obligation of the State to produce them. They are VFR - for use in visual flying conditions. Obviously in this case it was nighttime and moreover the visibility conditions were poor. The databases bring in that information. That is a separate process for which the IAA is not responsible.

It is how they use them.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

We are in ongoing contact with the sector regarding our charts. If the sector says to us, "We fly this particular route and by the way 200 yd. over to east as we are flying in here, there is an obstacle that we would like you to chart", we look at that and agree to chart it. We work with the sector on that. These are VFR charts and generally speaking in covering the territory of the State, they recommend a safe minimum altitude and pilots deviate from that within these instrument flight procedure rules.

They are only covered by the charts for specific routes into aerodromes. You could not have them for every possible route that a SAR helicopter------

I accept that, but at base level, is it the case that all the information necessary is contained in the VFR and if somebody else is building up from those databases, they have what they need?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

Yes.

The system did not work as perfectly as it should. That is a piece of work that we can follow up on later.

On the wider issue in relation to safety, what I am trying to get at is the question of whether, in the Air Navigation Transport Bill 2020, we have all the checks and balances we require to catch mistakes. Mistakes happen. We commonly use the example of global air travel. The system started working properly when operators were told they had two weeks to basically give notification of a near collision. At that stage, protocols were improved. Heads did not roll, but the system improved and it saved lives. Do we have that?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

Yes. The first point we should emphasise is that aviation is an extremely regulated activity, necessarily and rightly so, and it is a very safe activity. I have a statistic with me that I was discussing with the Chair earlier. In 2018, before the pandemic hit, 4.3 billion passengers travelled globally on 46 million flights. In terms of fatal accidents per 1 million flights, in 1992, it was 0.95; in 2016, it was 0.2. Therefore, there has been a huge improvement in safety performance across the industry as connectivity and the number of journeys have increased.

On the question of how we regulate, as a regulator we have 12,000 standards and recommended practices from the ICAO. We have thousands of pages of European Union Aviation Safety Agency regulation. The EASA regulation transposes the ICAO regulation, but it goes beyond that. It also gives us acceptable means of compliance. It sets out the law and how operators or licence holders can comply with the law. Further, it provides additional guidance material. That is done at European level and it is standard across Europe. For example, if I am an airline, a pilot, an engineer or a maintenance organisation, I can go on to the EASA website, or link into it through the IAA website, and see exactly the structure of regulatory oversight and what I have to comply with. As the IAA, we audit against those compliance requirements. We do thousands of audits each year, and we audit on the basis of compliance checklists. For example, if there are 100 requirements in the regulation, we will say that we are going to audit against every single one of them. We may randomly pull out records relating to a particular area.

Aviation is a very safe industry that is comprehensively regulated. What the AAIU report and the tragic accident of R116 tell us is that in the area of SAR, there are important improvements that we can make. We are committed to making those improvements. To give one example, SAR was previously usually conducted by the State in different jurisdictions. It was outside the remit of the ICAO and the EASA. Therefore, the regulation of SAR is less developed than civil aviation generally.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

What the AAIU report has done is to produce a set of recommendations which will lead to the improvement of our specification of rules of SAR at national level. Second, a recommendation has been made to the Commissioner in the EU that we would like Europe to specify safety standards for SAR and guidance material at national level in the way it does for other aspects of civil aviation.

That makes sense. Beyond that, it is about enacting those actions as soon as possible. I welcome the fact that Mr. Ó Conghaile has said the system has sufficient depth to it to catch mistakes as they happen and improve.

Ms Rose Hynes

That recommendation is important. The AAIU has recommended that the European Commission carry out a review of how SAR is managed in EU member states with a view to identifying best practice and minimum safety standards throughout the EU. That is lacking at the moment.

Ms Rose Hynes

It would be a very good thing for the committee to look at.

I think we need to do a piece of due diligence on that. I have a million questions.

I will not keep the Deputy back. I have one question. Is it fair to say the IAA deems the VFR maps to be used for flights at below a certain altitude?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

The first thing about the maps is that they are for visual flight conditions.

Is there an altitude aspect to them?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

There is. There is a specified minimum altitude for each sector.

Was the R116 aircraft flying above that altitude?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

No, it was flying below that altitude.

There was no issue with the altitude for which the maps are used. The issue was the fact that the equipment on the helicopter did not pick up the island on its tracking mechanism as identified on the map?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

I would say there were two issues. The AAIU report has identified multiple causes. There were 12-----

In layman's terms-----

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

In layman's terms, there were two issues. One was that the crew was flying a route and they were not aware that given that route and the altitude at which they were flying, they were on a direct collision course with the island. That was an issue. Also, there was the fact that the island did not appear in some of their navigational databases. I do not want oversimplify it because the AAIU-----

Was the island on the IAA's map?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

Yes, it was.

I thank both witnesses for being here today. I will start by asking Mr. Ó Conghaile straight out if he has any beneficial interest in any entity regulated by the IAA.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

No, I do not. I have an interest in the IAA and an interest in us fulfilling our safety mandate to the best of our ability.

Can Mr. Ó Conghaile tell me the date he finished employment with his last employer, a commercial airline?

Be careful, Senator. We are here to-----

I am just advising the Senator to be careful.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

I ended employment with Ryanair in December 2020.

When did Mr. Ó Conghaile start with the IAA?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

I started with the IAA in January 2021.

With respect to the maps that we have been discussing, I want to read a short section of the IAA aeronautical service advisory memorandum No. 022, Issue 2 of 18 August 2016. According to the memorandum:

It is the responsibility of the IAA to ensure that integrity of aeronautical data is maintained throughout the data process from survey/origin to the next intended user. That aeronautical data quality requirements related to the accuracy, integrity, resolution and data classification shall be as provided in [ICAO] Annexes 4, 11, 14 and 15. ... Note: The distribution of aeronautical data is the responsibility of the AIS unit.

Is that correct?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

That is correct. We are in compliance with those ICAO requirements.

There has been some discussion of the IAA's role in respect of the R116 accident. Would I be right in saying that the IAA, at that time, had no statutory authority, as it were, to oversee SAR, and that to this day it still does not have a statutory authority to oversee SAR until such time as the Air Navigation and Transport Bill 2020 is passed? Is that fair?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

That is not correct. We have a statutory basis for the regulation of SAR. At the time of the accident, and before and after the accident, we exercised oversight of SAR, and we still do. We did that through a number of statutory instruments, which hang from our primary legislation, and also by issuing an air operator certificate to the operator and a national SAR approval. We exercised safety oversight and we had a statutory basis for that.

The report suggests there was some ambiguity within the IAA as to its role in overseeing SAR operations in this country. Is that fair to say?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

The report does say that. It is very clear to me that, as a matter of fact, we did exercise safety oversight at the time of the accident. There are one or two legitimate reasons for confusion. One is that we did not regulate the Irish Coast Guard per se. The Irish Coast Guard is separate from the operator that provides the search and rescue services. The Coast Guard has marine and aviation activities and sits in the Departments with responsibility for transport and the marine. It is not an aviation operator. Therefore, we did not have regulatory oversight of it at the time and do not now. As a consequence of the air accident investigation unit, AAIU, report, however, that has been clarified. The Bill will give us regulatory oversight of the Coast Guard. We are already in touch with the Coast Guard on developing a memorandum of understanding as to how we will fulfil that regulatory oversight, and we will issue regulations for the Coast Guard, in particular on its tasking of search and rescue, SAR, missions. I think that that was one reason for the confusion. Another was the fact, to which I have referred, that, as the Senator will be aware, the ICAO and IASA do not provide regulation material on SAR, which is unusual in civil aviation.

Yes, probably because SAR was traditionally done by defence forces or air forces in various countries.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

Indeed.

What I am trying to establish is that the ambiguity that is reported in respect of the IAA's involvement in SAR was justified ambiguity because there is not, to date, a statutory obligation. That statutory obligation will come in with the Bill we are now moving through the Seanad.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

I do not necessarily agree with the Senator on that. First, the IAA did exercise safety oversight and there was a statutory basis for that oversight. As I said, there are a number of statutory instruments hanging out of the main Act and then orders or directions by the authority. There was, therefore, a statutory basis and we did exercise oversight.

The Bill will definitely underpin that, though.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

The Bill helpfully clarifies that.

As for night vision, some concern was expressed as far back as 2015 about poor lighting in the cockpits of aircraft. Those aircraft were retrofitted for night vision technology. Maybe it is a bit unfair to ask Mr. Ó Conghaile this, and by all means he may tell me he cannot answer it because it was well before his time. Clearly, those aircraft were retrofitted. After the retrofitting there were complaints about the level of lighting in the cockpits. Does Mr. Ó Conghaile find it extraordinary that, first and foremost, the State paid for the retrofitting in 2013-----

Be careful, Senator.

I am being careful. To date, that night vision is still not universally applied across the entire operation. After the retrofit, was it the responsibility of the IAA to inspect the aircraft and make sure they were operating correctly vis-à-vis cockpit lighting and so on?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

The Senator is right that that was before my time, but I will endeavour to answer the question. The fitting of the kit into the aircraft was approved by IASA. It is a design modification of the aircraft. The retrofitting was done by the manufacturer. Such an approval would include a safety risk analysis of any impact such retrofitting would have on other aspects of the technology or operation of the aircraft. The night vision imaging system, NVIS, is available to the aircraft for their normal commercial aviation flights, let us call them. We are finalising with the operator a review of its safety risk analysis for NVIS to be used on SAR flights. That process is well advanced. We expect to give that approval within a matter of weeks if not before.

We will have all them up and running by then, will we?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

Yes, that is my understanding.

That is pretty good. I am being very careful, Chairman. I am not trying to apportion blame to anybody but I am trying to understand how it has taken more than eight years to get a system that has been put in place working and operating.

Have you a concluding question, Senator?

At this stage I am happy enough the IAA will now have oversight and will be proactive in its oversight. I am a little concerned the charts and maps that are provided to aeronautical companies can be scanned incorrectly. It appears from the report that that seems to have been a problem. Four navigation systems, from what I can recall, failed on that day. I am sure the IAA has plenty of work and I would think Mr. Ó Conghaile has plenty of work ahead of him to put all these things right. I hope he will be able to report back to the committee in the near future to let us know we have put things right and minimised the possibility of accidents into the future.

Ms Rose Hynes

The AAIU report does not seek to ascribe liability or blame. That is not-----

Absolutely, and we are very careful-----

We all accept that, but the whole purpose-----

Ms Rose Hynes

Absolutely.

-----of air accident investigation is to learn the lessons it provides.

We are dealing with the facts as reported within the report without attributing blame in any way.

I welcome Ms Hynes and Mr. Ó Conghaile and thank them for the presentation. No doubt Ms Hynes's CV reads very well, as I think others have said, but I wish to take her through it a little in order that we get a better feel for it. How many boards is Ms Hynes on at the moment?

Ms Rose Hynes

My principal boards are listed on my CV.

What is the total number?

Ms Rose Hynes

Including UL, I would say eight.

Ms Hynes sits on eight boards.

Ms Rose Hynes

Yes.

When did Ms Hynes become aware this position was vacant?

Ms Rose Hynes

I think it was on 29 December that I got a text from the Secretary General of the Department asking if he could speak to me the following day, and the following day I had a conversation with him.

Ms Hynes had no prior knowledge that-----

Ms Rose Hynes

No. I did not even know there was a vacancy.

The first Ms Hynes heard of it was when the Secretary General of the Department contacted her.

Ms Rose Hynes

Yes.

What did he say?

Ms Rose Hynes

He mentioned to me there was a vacancy and he just wanted to talk to me about it. I did not know the previous chair and did not know he had left.

Further to that, did Ms Hynes make any contact with officials or politicians or their associates regarding the position prior to the Government deciding to nominate her?

Ms Rose Hynes

No.

There was no contact with anyone-----

Ms Rose Hynes

Absolutely none.

-----other than through the Secretary General.

Ms Rose Hynes

He left it with me for a few days to think about it. Then I went back to him and said I would be prepared to do it. I had no contact with anybody.

Ms Hynes's position now is chair designate, pending her engagement with the committee today.

Ms Rose Hynes

Pending this engagement, yes.

Then it will become ratified that Ms Hynes is the chair. Since her appointment as chair designate by the Government, has she met with or contacted any members of the committee, either directly or indirectly-----

Ms Rose Hynes

This committee?

Yes. Has she contacted any members of this committee, including through any third party?

Ms Rose Hynes

No.

Ms Hynes has not met anyone from this committee-----

Ms Rose Hynes

No.

Previously, Ms Hynes served as chair of the board of Shannon Airport. She will know from Mr. Shane Ross's book that he relayed to her his thanks for her service there but, in doing so, said at the end of her term that he would not reappoint her. In his book he says that, within minutes of telling her this, he received a call from the then Taoiseach pretty much asking him to reappoint her. In fairness, he gave her an extension of a year. Why did Ms Hynes contact the Taoiseach that day?

Ms Rose Hynes

I do not think this is a matter I should be discussing-----

If I may, it speaks to the way Ms Hynes does business, so I am asking her what-----

Ms Rose Hynes

No, it does not speak to the way I do business. I do not agree with what.

Did Ms Hynes call the Taoiseach? Will she confirm that she called the Taoiseach that day?

Ms Rose Hynes

I am asking the Chair for his guidance.

Be careful, Senator. We are not in any way inferring-----

Not at all. I am inferring nothing. This was a State board in respect of which the then Minister suggested to Ms Hynes he was happy with her service - no question over anything - but that he was not going to reappoint her. There is no entitlement to reappointment-----

Ms Rose Hynes

I know that.

-----and Ms Hynes knows that. However, Mr. Ross says in his book, and it is a matter of public record, that he received a call from the Taoiseach that pretty much asked him to reappoint her, and he confirms he did that.

That is a public fact. I am asking Ms Hynes the motivation for contacting the Taoiseach on her behalf to remain as the chair of the board of Shannon.

Ms Rose Hynes

I will ask the Chairman whether I can-----

It is up to Ms Hynes whether she wishes to address the question.

I am not going to badger her.

Ms Rose Hynes

I did call the Taoiseach to explain my situation.

Did Ms Hynes file a return with the Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO, regarding lobbying? If somebody rings me or particularly a Minister, there is a stipulation under the legislation, with which Ms Hynes will be familiar, that this constitutes lobbying. In her return-----

Ms Rose Hynes

I was not lobbying.

I suspect that at that time, Ms Hynes was still the chair of the board so it would have been natural to have a conversation-----

It would have been natural to have a conversation with the line Minister. If Ms Hynes was contacting the Taoiseach and he acted on that call, in my humble opinion that would require Ms Hynes to set that out in her returns to SIPO. She knows that full well. I am just looking at an article where Shane Ross raised a freedom of information, FOI, request about Ms Hynes's recent appointment, a document released under FOI-----

The Senator should be careful he is not making allegations.

I am not making allegations. I am quoting from the newspaper. In her email, Ms Hynes wrote, "I told him that this is not a matter for the IAA and we should not respond, and Ross should be told that this is a matter for the DEPT. Surely he has a conflict of interest being a former minister? Standards in public office??", so she understands lobbying.

Ms Rose Hynes

Of course I understand lobbying.

Is she confirming that she did not make a return relating to that-----

Ms Rose Hynes

I am not confirming one way or the other because I made returns right through my time. I have no idea whether I-----

Then that is a matter of public record. I can-----

Ms Rose Hynes

I am telling the Senator that I just informed the Taoiseach of what my position was. That was all - nothing more.

What was her position?

Ms Rose Hynes

What actually happened.

There had been an interaction with the Minister for a couple of weeks prior to this and Ms Hynes asked him to reconsider his position.

Ms Rose Hynes

It was not a couple of weeks.

Ms Hynes said she would come to back to him and he came back to her and confirmed he was not of a mind to reappoint her. It was not personal. He was thanking other chairpersons who had reached the end of their cycle or term and opening up the process to appoint new people. This is no reflection on Ms Hynes or any of the others. However, the Minister got a call from the Taoiseach minutes later. In my view, and Ms Hynes may have a different view, to which she is entitled, that was her lobbying to be reappointed.

Ms Rose Hynes

I was not lobbying. I was just telling him my position. I was telling him this just happened. That is all. I did not ask him to do anything about it.

Ms Hynes would have been the incumbent at that point.

Ms Rose Hynes

I was appointed by the Minister for Transport. I was just informing the Taoiseach of the position - nothing more.

That is okay. We will move on.

That is the prerogative of Government as well.

The reality is Ms Hynes did not see that as lobbying and, therefore, she did not make a return.

Ms Rose Hynes

I did not say I did not make a return. I made returns right through a number of years. I have no idea. I did not see it as lobbying in any event.

We are obviously here today to look at the IAA-----

Ms Hynes is not yet the chairperson. The purpose of confirming a designate is to discuss his or her modus operandi with him or her.

Ms Rose Hynes

I was appointed by the Government as designate and given the authority to act.

That is correct, subject to a conversation here.

Ms Rose Hynes

That is right.

So that happens. Ms Hynes got the extended year. In the intervening period, there was an election and we all know where that went. I went out one door, somebody came in another, Ms Hynes was still in situ and there was a new Minister. Within a very short number of days of the Minister being appointed, Ms Hynes made contact with him and again offered her services.

Ms Rose Hynes

No, I did not.

Ms Hynes never contacted him.

Ms Rose Hynes

No, I did not.

There was no contact. The Minister and Ms Hynes had no conversation.

Ms Rose Hynes

We had no conversation other than my being contacted by the Department to ask me my view. I was not contacted by the Minister.

Ms Hynes's view on what?

Ms Rose Hynes

My view on reappointment and my term.

Was Ms Hynes given to believe she would be reappointed?

Ms Rose Hynes

No, I was thinking about it and then I decided I did not want to be reappointed.

How does Ms Hynes mean-----

Ms Rose Hynes

I was thinking about and the Department was thinking about it, so I did not go for reappointment.

Is this about the Shannon Group?

Ms Rose Hynes

Yes. I did not go for it. I did not seek it.

But Ms Hynes was thinking about it having already looked for the area.

Ms Rose Hynes

No.

Again, Ms Hynes did not make any returns relating to lobbying.

Ms Rose Hynes

No, I did not.

The main purpose of today's meeting is-----

I am making no accusations. I am asking Ms Hynes a series of questions.

I ask the Senator to be careful. This meeting is about the priorities-----

I have good reason to be careful and I will be careful.

It very much concerns Ms Hynes's role in the IAA.

I have made no allegations. I am asking questions, and if Ms Hynes chooses not to answer anything, I have no intention of badgering her because, on a personal level, I have good regard for her but we are talking professionally.

In 2011 and 2012, Ms Hynes led a campaign to separate Shannon from the DAA promising a bright future for Shannon if it could compete effectively with Dublin. It was often said, and I do not attribute the comments to Ms Hynes, that if the dead hand of the DAA could be taken off Shannon, it would prosper in a free market. The Government at the time went ahead with that. As Ms Hynes identified, the current Tánaiste, who was Minister for Transport at the time, initiated that separation and rewarded her with chairmanship of the airport in 2013. That was a quasi-executive role for Ms Hynes. During that time, Shannon went through three CEOs and numerous managers were hired and left.

In 2013, tourism was at an all-time low. Numbers through the airport were at an all-time low because of the global financial crash. In that year, Shannon launched a five-year plan to grow passenger numbers from 1.4 million to 2.5 million. Back in 2007, prior to the crash, numbers going through the airport were 3.65 million, so 1.4 million was a very low base and, therefore, 2.5 million was seen as possibly being conservative. The reality is that over that period of time, passenger numbers at Shannon grew by only 300,000 to 1.7 million while the numbers at Dublin grew by 13 million.

That was on Ms Hynes's watch. What was her role at that time? Was she the chair? Was she involved in any way in management? Did she see herself as having an executive role? Did she initiate or involve herself in any of the day-to-day management? Was she involved in procurement of any services for the airport? Did she lobby for any members to join the board of the airport with her?

Ms Rose Hynes

First of all, my role was non-executive chair. I did not perform an executive function so that is clear. There were returns for any lobbying I engaged in. I tried lobbying to get things to happen for the airport. It is a normal feature of doing business there. I cannot remember what the other question was.

In terms of procurement, I wanted to understand-----

Ms Rose Hynes

I have nothing to do with procurement. That is dealt with by the management.

Early on when passenger numbers were clearly not growing in line with expectations, a decision was taken to amalgamate all the aspects - the airport, the property company and the visitor attractions - under one heading under the group. From then on, a lot of the press releases spoke about the performance of the group in financial terms and there was a lot less discussion about passenger numbers. Was that something initiated by Ms Hynes?

Ms Rose Hynes

That was not something the company decided to do. That was Government policy. Government policy was that upon separation from the DAA, Shannon would be merged with certain aspects of what was previously Shannon Development.

That took some couple of years of restructuring. Once the de-merger of certain aspects of Shannon Development occurred we ended up with the property and heritage portfolios and they were merged. That was all part of Government policy.

I ask Senator Dooley to conclude.

The Chairman gave a lot of latitude to others.

Ms Rose Hynes

It was all part of Government policy. That is what the Government decided.

I accept that. The message around the failure to reach the projected numbers at the airport was, in my view, washed to the side and the focus was on the financial performance of the group.

Ms Rose Hynes

The Senator is wrong

I bow to the superior knowledge of Ms Hynes. I see that Ms Hynes served on the board of Bank of Ireland where she was chairman of the remuneration committee at one point and served from about 2007 or 2008 up to 2012.

Ms Rose Hynes

No, that is wrong too.

Please tell me.

Ms Rose Hynes

I think it was in 2010 that I left the bank. I was there for a year. The last year I was in the bank.

Ms Rose Hynes

It was for one year.

Did Ms Hynes serve on the board of the bank?

Ms Rose Hynes

No. On the bank's board, I was there from 2007 until the end of 2011. I was chair of the remuneration committee for a year at the end.

How long did Ms Hynes serve on the remuneration committee?

Ms Rose Hynes

Like I said, a year at the end.

Did Ms Hynes serve for a year as chair of the remuneration committee?

Ms Rose Hynes

Yes.

Did Ms Hynes serve for longer on the remuneration committee?

Ms Rose Hynes

Sorry, I do not understand the question.

How long did Ms Hynes serve on the remuneration committee as an ordinary member?

Ms Rose Hynes

I cannot recall, to be totally honest, but I can remember that I was chair for the last year.

Was that as chair?

Ms Rose Hynes

Maybe not. I do not know. I just cannot recall.

I think Ms Hynes did but we are not going to fall out over this matter. During that period and notwithstanding the poor financial health of the bank, and we know we were going through a banking collapse, that committee or the board continued to make recommendations regarding bonuses and boomtime salaries to chief executives and exit packages.

Ms Rose Hynes

No, it did not. At that stage anything like that had to be approved by the Department of Finance and in the period that the Senator has talked about-----

It did actually.

Ms Rose Hynes

-----at that stage both the previous CEO had left-----

Ms Rose Hynes

-----and the previous chair or Governor of the bank had left. The new contracts were at lower numbers and they were approved by the Minister for Finance.

I am talking about the exit packages for those who were there.

Ms Rose Hynes

They got no more than what they were entitled to. They have got exactly what they were contractually entitled to.

There are many people who believe they were entitled to a lot more in terms of what the lost on bank shares or over-inflated mortgages.

Ms Rose Hynes

I know. All of those arrangements were approved. At the time they were under serious scrutiny.

By a committee of which Ms Hynes was part of.

Ms Rose Hynes

No, they were under serious scrutiny by the Department of Finance. This relates to the whole banking arrangement.

Ms Rose Hynes

I am very unhappy that the Senator is proceeding down this route.

I am asking questions.

The Senator needs to return to discussing aviation.

I will. All of these matters are in the public domain and all of my questions are ones that I think Ms Hynes should be prepared to answer. If she puts herself forward for a position like this then she should be prepared to answer my questions. If she chooses not to answer then there is nothing that I can about it.

Ms Rose Hynes

I do not have a problem answering questions. What I am trying to say to the Senator is that everything at that stage was under the scrutiny of the Department of Finance.

It was. There was also a direction and request from the Department at the time that existing board members would not seek reappointment or election by the internal process of appointment. Ms Hynes was one of three who continued to hang on despite that.

Ms Rose Hynes

I did not. No, I actually elected to go, in fact, six months earlier than when I would have.

Was that in 2010?

Ms Rose Hynes

No, at the end of 2011.

The Senator has three more minutes and then he will have to conclude.

Ms Hynes was chair of Irish Water. Again, there were issues there with a chief executive and a very high bonus. Maybe Ms Hynes could share with us what the chief executive----

Ms Rose Hynes

The chief executive there had his contract approved by the Department.

Did Ms Hynes, as chairperson, have no role in that whatsoever?

Ms Rose Hynes

The only role one has as the chair of an entity that is owned by the Government is that one gets the contract approved. Every aspect of the contract has to be approved before it can be signed and it has to be signed off by the Department. That is what happens. That is how it happens.

I call Deputy Joe Carey and he has five minutes. Can he hear me? No. In the interim I call Deputy O'Rourke and he is not there. I could ask a few questions while we wait for either of them to come in.

They could be anywhere.

They could be dealing with anything.

Ms Hynes, what is the duration of the role?

Ms Rose Hynes

It runs until the separation actually occurs.

When does Ms Hynes expect that to happen?

Ms Rose Hynes

I originally expected that it might be by the end of this year and it now looks likes it will go into the next quarter but that is the outside of it, assuming that the legislation passes.

Obviously that is determined by the legislation.

Ms Rose Hynes

Yes, functus officio is how it is described. My appointment runs out as soon as the job is done.

At the moment does one have IAA and the Commission for Aviation Regulation?

Ms Rose Hynes

No. The Commission for Aviation Regulation gets merged, on separation.

There are three. There is the IAA.

Ms Rose Hynes

Yes.

There is the CAR and ultimately CAR goes into the IAA.

Ms Rose Hynes

Yes.

There there is AerNua.

Ms Rose Hynes

AerNav.

AerNav becomes separate.

Ms Rose Hynes

Yes, it is the company that deals with air navigation.

Will all of the CAR employees be subsumed into the IAA?

Ms Rose Hynes

Into the new IAA, yes.

What will be the complement of the new IAA? There is 125 staff from AerNav.

Ms Rose Hynes

Is it about 25, Mr. Ó Conghaile?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

Yes. It will be about 160 in total taking account of new appointments.

Are there only 35 staff in CAR at the moment?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

There are about 25 staff in CAR. The new organisation will set up or augment HR, finance and IT functions.

Will there be no relationship between the IAA and AerNav?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

The IAA will be the safety regulator for the air navigation service provider.

Are they connected in any form?

Ms Rose Hynes

They are two separate companies.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

They are two separate companies.

Will the IAA stay as the existing body?

Ms Rose Hynes

It stays with everything else moved out.

A legal structure.

Ms Rose Hynes

Yes. It will be governed by the new legislation.

Ms Rose Hynes

In terms of the role change, how will the new IAA differ from the current IAA?

It will not perform any of the functions that relate to air navigation. It will be specifically the regulator plus CAR.

Ms Rose Hynes

It will be a one-stop-shop for regulation.

So the whole area of search and rescue, SAR, will still fall under the IAA?

Ms Rose Hynes

It will fall under the IAA.

What area sets airport charges?

Ms Rose Hynes

It will go under the IAA.

Will the existing board stay within the IAA? So it is not a new structure. Is it the existing structure with its functions redefined.

Ms Rose Hynes

No. What is happening is that the existing board members were asked by the Department to identify which of them wanted to remain on or which did not for the remainder of their unexpired term. Then whoever puts a hand up to stay will form part of a panel. Obviously there is a shortage and, therefore, the panel will be augmented by a process operated by the Public Appointments Service, PAS, to add to the panel. Then the two separate new chairs will be appointed by the Public Appointments Service.

Is it the same legal structure in essence and the board remains the same?

Ms Rose Hynes

It is the same legal structure. For continuity the board will be split, together with the other members of the augmented panel.

Based on this role, does Ms Hynes's work involves overseeing the separation of the two institutions?

Ms Rose Hynes

Yes, but I have nothing to do with the boards.

I accept that. It is about finding a way.

Ms Rose Hynes

Yes, it is.

Kieran Mulvey has been in. What are the challenges to get to a point where there will be a sustainable separation for both the IAA and AerNav? What are the challenges?

Ms Rose Hynes

People are a very important and critical part of this and I must make sure that they are satisfied.

On the people side of it, it splits down the middle. People were either on one side or the other. They either worked for AirNav or the other side. There is not any uncertainty about where they sit.

I am going back to Ms Hynes's time as chair of the Shannon Group. She was there from the start. It brought together Shannon Airport and the old Shannon Development and they were combined. Some of the lands within Shannon Development went to IDA Ireland. Some went to Tourism Ireland for its functions. Is there any way at all that the remit of CAR conflicts in any way with that part of the IAA's remit that will stay within the IAA? It is a left-of-field question.

Ms Rose Hynes

Does the Chairman mean the new IAA?

I have made my views on Shannon Airport as an airport known publicly. Essentially, a property vehicle was put in with it to make it sustainable. Did doing that in any way take focus off the core activity of the airport? Is there anything in the forthcoming restructuring that could in any way-----

Ms Rose Hynes

No. There is no equivalent here because the separation of assets follows the function. AirNav assets and infrastructure will go to the AirNav side.

Why does Ms Hynes think CAR should be put in the IAA?

Ms Rose Hynes

I did not decide. That is Government policy. It was so there could be a one-stop shop for all aspects of regulation, including economic and consumer regulation.

I know this is straying slightly off-topic. Ms Hynes was brought in for her expertise on the assimilation of organisations. Did independence work for Shannon Airport? Did the construct work? Is there any way in which transporting such a big property portfolio into an airport took focus off the airport side of operations?

Ms Rose Hynes

I do not think so. I am a supporter of independence. There are separate staff and management that deal with that.

There is one board.

Ms Rose Hynes

Yes, but what it does is provide a sustainable income.

Does it provide the income?

Ms Rose Hynes

I think it does.

It is something I question all the time. It is an airport but obviously it has other revenue streams. Does it provide a continual hunger to drive the airport?

Ms Rose Hynes

Yes. The hunger to drive the airport is at the core of it. Everybody realises that no matter what else you do with any other part of the entity, the heartbeat is the airport. There is huge drive.

What did Ms Hynes learn from the formation of the Shannon Group that would have influenced the approach she has taken in the separation of the IAA?

Ms Rose Hynes

I have learned how to do it and what a good process is. It involves agreeing a methodology upfront, early on, and how the financial assets are split. This situation is not as complex as the Shannon situation was because in this one, the assets follow the separation of functions in a straightforward way. The only decision to be made relates to the split of the cash and what represents a sustainable cash buffer for each entity as we go forward.

There are 160 staff in the IAA. How many are in Shannon?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

Very few. Just two or three.

How many of the AirNav would be in Shannon?

Ms Rose Hynes

In total, between the different places, I just know the ones in Clare.

I am making a case for the mid-west. The IAA is based in Shannon.

Ms Rose Hynes

I cannot decide that. That is decided somewhere else. The vast majority are there.

AirNav is based in Shannon.

Ms Rose Hynes

No. There are 332 in total in Clare. Most are AirNav.

The IAA is based in Dublin. Did Ms Hynes ever consider having it come out of Shannon?

Ms Rose Hynes

That is not really my decision.

Is Mr. Ó Conghaile happy that the visual flight rules maps from 2017 are accurate today? Has he had a chance to review them?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

I have not. As we said, we are in discussions with the sector all the time about additional features that might be added to maps. I have not briefed myself on the condition of the 2017 maps. The maps are done in compliance with the ICAO. I want to be clear that the VFR maps in use at the time of the accident included the obstacle.

There is a final issue that we will consider as a committee. Has the IAA any oversight to verify if the third party systems within aircraft have the same degree of mapping as on the VFR plans?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

We would best do that through the safety management system of the operator. We oversee the safety management system of the operator.

Has that always been the case?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

Indeed.

Therefore, would the IAA not have looked at the safety management system of the operators of the helicopters, with regard to the Rescue 116 crash?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

We would have. A key part of a safety management system is to have safety reports. There are safety reports within the safety management system that come to the system. Not every observation about the charts and navigation aids found its way into the safety system at the time. That is something where an improvement can be made.

Is it true that there was only one analysis carried out of the search and rescue system, which was in 2014? A report was delivered by the IAA at the time. Mr. Ó Conghaile is in the position now. I appreciate that the questions I am asking-----

I want to bring in Deputy Carey so the Senator needs to conclude.

A report was created by the IAA but it had no import because of the misunderstanding with respect to how much authority it had.

Was that in the R116 report? I do not wish Mr. Ó Conghaile to comment on particular matters in the report. Be careful about attributing anything.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

This was defined by the AAIU as an organisational accident, which means that there were multiple causes. The causes have been identified by the AAIU. There were approximately 70 findings. There are 42 recommendations. Those recommendations will improve safety performance for search and rescue in Ireland and globally, because other people will look at this report. There are recommendations for the IAA. We accept those recommendations and will implement them.

We will go to Deputy Carey. I am conscious that we have another witness to come in.

I will be brief. I welcome Ms Hynes to the committee. Mediation is important.

I welcome the appointment of Mr. Kieran Mulvey. His work is going really well. That appointment was made on foot of a recommendation of this committee. Many members called for his appointment. There is still a significant body of work to be done. What is the view of Ms Hynes in that regard? All Oireachtas Members received a significant volume of correspondence from concerned people within the IAA in respect of the culture that has developed there. I hope those issues will be addressed in a substantive way and will not obstruct the fundamental reform package that has now been introduced, with Ms Hynes at the helm.

Ms Rose Hynes

There were several recommendations in the Mulvey report. Kieran Mulvey did a great job, as he always does. We are now in the implementation phase in the context of those recommendations. They all went to a ballot and there was a very successful outcome to that at union level. We are now in the implementation phase. Several of the recommendations have been implemented and the remainder are ongoing. Discussions are continuing with the relevant staff members to fulfil the process. It is a completely different scenario now that we have moved to implementation and everybody involved is positively disposed and working in the belief that the issues are being heard and dealt with. Obviously, the past two years have been tough on everybody. Every business has experienced issues as a result. I can safely say that all of the matters are being dealt with now in the implementation phase.

The issue of pensions continues to be a concern for employees. Can Ms Hynes assure those who have retired that those pension issues will be resolved?

Ms Rose Hynes

We continue to work forward in respect of all the issues. There are several issues being resolved and there are ongoing discussions. We are certainly working to resolve everybody's issues. That is part and parcel of the various work streams that are ongoing.

Is Ms Hynes aware of an incident associated with the ferrying of goods from Shannon to Poland in recent weeks? I ask her to comment on that.

Ms Rose Hynes

I am not aware of any such incident. I will pass over to Mr. Ó Conghaile, who may be aware of it.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

I am aware that a safety incident was reported but I do not have further details on it, so that is as much as I wish to say.

I ask our guests to revert to the committee on that issue and provide a report on it.

I ask the Deputy to provide the secretariat with details of the information he is seeking and that can be forwarded to Mr. Ó Conghaile.

I will do that. I thank our guests. I wish Ms Hynes well in her tenure.

Ms Rose Hynes

I thank the Deputy.

Senator Buttimer wishes to come back in briefly.

There is a vote upcoming in the Seanad. My apologies for having to leave the meeting earlier. I ask Mr. Ó Conghaile to address my request for clarification in the context of the IAA and the responsibility for aeronautical data. I refer to the issue of who regulates non-commercial operations with complex motor-powered aircraft, NCC, in operations in Ireland. Memorandum No. 22, issued on 18 August 2016, states: "It is the responsibility of the IAA to ensure that integrity of aeronautical data is maintained throughout the data process from survey/origin to the next intended user..." and so on. I ask Mr. Ó Conghaile to provide clarification on that. I reiterate my support for both Mr. Ó Conghaile and Ms Hynes.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

I will go back to the air accident investigation unit, AAIU, report. It is a comprehensive-----

I apologise to Mr. Ó Conghaile. I have to go to a vote and cannot stay for his reply. I will get the transcript of the proceedings. I would appreciate it if he were to reply to my question. I will be following the broadcast of the proceedings.

Perhaps Mr. Ó Conghaile will reply as concisely as possible.

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

I will keep it concise. The AAIU report is a comprehensive, independent and exemplary piece of work. There is no finding in that report against or in respect of the IAA in the context of charting information. It is important to make that point. It may suit certain narratives to seek to criticise the IAA and IAA charts but that is not a valid criticism. If one looks at the detail of the report, there is nothing there to cast any doubt in respect of the IAA's fulfilment of its charting obligations on behalf of the State. There are recommendations addressed to the IAA and we accept those recommendations.

Mr. Ó Conghaile will appreciate that, as a layperson, it seems that the IAA had maps that clearly showed the island. No one disputes that fact. Obviously, if the mission had been during the day, there would not have been an issue. The incident occurred at night. Four people lost their lives, affecting four families. It is clear that the mapping system in the cockpit on the night did not show the island. I am a layman. We need to ensure, whether through regulation, legislation or whatever, the accuracy of mapping in all situations in terms of the IAA's visual flight rules, VFR, maps. Am I correct to refer to VFR?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

Yes, visual flight rules.

I totally accept that the IAA maps are accurate, but if an independent entity is scanning those maps, that is where we should have follow-up certification that the scanning is consistent with the actual maps. Does Mr. Ó Conghaile agree?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

I refer to the importing of all the information because the Senator stated that everything is contained-----

In referencing a lacuna, I do so not in a strict legal sense but in terms of transfer of data that are absolutely 100%. It is clear that did not happen on this occasion. I am assuming that the source document for the maps is the IAA VFR maps. Is that correct?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

That is one source. There are other mapping databases available. There is a significant amount of geo-information available. It is clear from the report of the AAIU that there was a lacuna or gap, as the Chairman stated, in the rendering of information accurately in those navigation sources. That was picked up by the report, as it had to be. I agree it is something the sector collectively needs to address. The role of the IAA in that regard will be through oversight of the operator through the safety management system.

That is a matter on which the committee will follow up. I thank Mr. Ó Conghaile.

I wish to be clear on this. If I am an operator and the IAA provides me with charts and I scan them, somebody somewhere has to have oversight of what I scan and make sure that I have imported into my system what the IAA has on record and not missed out on part of it. Is that a fair point?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

In principle, it is a fair point. As regards the IAA responsibility, however, it is not, and could not be, our responsibility to study maps covering an entire territory to verify that every single detail has been correctly rendered. There is clear weakness that has been identified by the AAIU and there is a set of recommendations-----

In the context of the report, as things stand, is there any body that provides an oversight function to ensure that maps from whatever source are scanned correctly onto the operating systems within aeroplane cockpits?

Has any body oversight of that at this moment in time?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

IASSA approves the suppliers of the navigational systems. That approval process, which we are not involved in, includes requirements as to accuracy. There should be safety risk analysis to mitigate against risks that things would be-----

Does that exist at the moment?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

The Chairman will have to excuse me. I cannot comment on the IASSA approval process. I am not briefed on it. However, there is such an approval process. The AAIU has identified these weaknesses. Part of the IAA's role in this going into the future will be to ensure that any weaknesses are picked up through the safety management system of the operator.

We will have to come back to the issue.

This is a serious issue. If the IAA is providing state-of-the-art navigational maps, which I believe it is, and an operator takes those maps and scans them into their system, somebody somewhere has to oversee the verification process to ensure that map has been accurately imported. That issue will have to form part of our report. Is Mr. Ó Conghaile saying that a private entity can import those maps in any way it wishes and nobody oversees that?

Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile

No, I am not saying that. There is a huge amount of provision of information, including charting information and navigational information. That is done all the time for the aviation sector.

We will have to come back to this issue. It would appear that there is an absence of information and a lacuna in this whole area. It is an issue that we will come back to. It is separate from our discussions on Ms Hynes's appointment today. We wish her well in the role and thank her for the work she has done to date. We look forward to the transition of the IAA, with the separation and formation of AirNav Ireland. We are conscious of the 735 employees involved. As Ms Hynes will be aware, as a committee, we recommended that Mr. Mulvey be appointed as mediator. We think he is very competent in the role. We wish Ms Hynes and Ó Conghaile well. I thank them for appearing before the committee in person. A letter and transcript of this meeting will be issued to the Minister of Transport informing him that the committee has met with Ms Hynes. I am sure that she will appreciate that robust exchanges, in their own way, are healthy. It is something that I value. The most important thing is that we all come out of it intact and can continue to carry out our respective roles. That is healthy for democracy overall.

Ms Rose Hynes

That is why we came here today. We came to have an open and transparent discussion.

Sitting suspended at 3.33 p.m and resumed at 3.44 p.m.
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