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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Nov 2021

An Post: Chairperson Designate

For the second part of the session I would like to welcome the chairperson designate of An Post, Ms Carol Bolger, and public affairs manager of An Post, Mr. Angus Laverty, to the meeting. We are here to discuss Ms Bolger’s strategic plans for the role and her views on the challenges currently facing the organisation.

All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statement is potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. For witnesses attending remotely, outside the Leinster House campus, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege such that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness who is physically present does.

Witnesses who are participating in this committee session from a jurisdiction outside the State are advised that they should also be mindful of domestic law and how it may apply to the evidence that they give. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I apologise to Ms Bolger for the delay. We look forward to her contribution. I call her to make her opening statement.

Ms Carol Bolger

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend today. I look forward to engaging with it. I have served as a board member of An Post since 2017. A few months ago, I was invited to become chairperson. I joined the board just on the cusp of the transformation programme and have seen significant changes in the past four years.

I would like to start by giving the committee some information about myself. I have 30 years’ broad banking experience gained in Bank of Ireland and Ulster Bank. I worked in corporate and business banking, retail banking and credit risk. I also held senior roles, including chief operating officer of business banking and director for strategy and planning in corporate banking. In recent years, my career has been focused on the area of governance. I am a chartered director and a board evaluator with the Institute of Directors in Ireland, where I also tutor on the chartered director programme. I am a non-executive director on the board of BCMGlobal ASI Ltd, I chair Utexam Solutions, which is a subsidiary of BNP Paribas and I also chair the audit committee of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I was previously a member of the board of the Health and Safety Authority, HSA, and the Coombe Women and Infants University Hospital. I am a certified bank director. I hold qualifications in finance, strategy and innovation and I am an accredited coach. I am fellow of the Institute of Banking, IOB, and I was a council member there for many years. I also acted as vice president there for a time.

Turning to An Post, it is a company with a proud record of service to the people of Ireland and the communities we serve. I see An Post as rooted in that fine tradition, working hard in the present but firmly focused on the future. I would like to acknowledge the significant contribution of Mr. Dermot Divilly, who chaired An Post from 2015 to 2020. I have served as the pro tempore chairperson of An Post in the interim before my appointment last July.

In that capacity, I outlined in our 2020 annual report how An Post put the common good and the national requirements at the forefront of its response to the pandemic. We put in place an enhanced service to vulnerable sections of our community, and we provided easier access to social welfare payments. We were asked by Government to help maintain the supply of cash to local communities and to keep the mail system open. We delivered on all of these requests. An Post doubled its efforts to facilitate home delivery. We removed much of the pain for the economy. A price increase that had been announced before the pandemic was postponed in our desire to support SMEs. An Post bore the burden of this in its own financial results.

The board and myself are proud of the achievements of the organisation. We have reiterated our commitment to play a positive role nationally in dealing with what continues to be unprecedented times for our country. Our challenge now is maintaining that high level of service to a rapidly changing Ireland and building a future based on the needs of our customers, grounded in the firm principles of sustainability. The challenges we face impact locally but are generated globally and are similar to those being faced by post companies worldwide.

An Post initiated a new strategy in 2017, which saw the business move forward significantly. We recorded a profit before depreciation of €79 million in 2019. This has contracted since the pandemic, and a profit before depreciation of €32 million was recorded in 2020. All post offices have continued to provide services and our delivery network has emerged as an essential service. We handled an increase in e-commerce traffic during 2020 of more than 100%. Brexit and customs changes have proven to be a disruptor but An Post has emerged as a significant solution. We continue to put in systems and processes to enable e-commerce to flourish. The group has a defined strategy and is looking forward to emerging from the pandemic period and returning to growth in 2022. We will continue to work with the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, and the officials in their Departments. Our strategy for the years ahead will see An Post play a leading role in the national recovery. That strategy, which I will oversee, will involve an investment of €200 million to €300 million in our networks over the next five years for physical and digital infrastructure.

We will continue our push ahead and develop a leading logistics network to meet the growth in e-commerce while building a sustainable mail delivery service. We will do this in line with our ethos of providing decent work for our people in contrast to the so-called gig economy.

We will invest in a transformed and sustainable post office network for customers, communities and SMEs.

Senator Timmy Dooley took the Chair.

Ms Carol Bolger

Key to that will be community banking, e-commerce and government services. We are committed to investing in the national post office network while also investing heavily in enabling customers to do their business with us at a time, place and method of their choice. We are constantly developing a new omnichannel capability that combines the latest digital technology with our unique human touch and our extensive post office network.

The decline of core business lines such as social welfare transactions, BillPay and mail services has meant that we have had to reinvent the role of the post office and come up with new services to meet the changing needs of customers. An example of this is our green hub, which supports the national sustainability drive in helping homeowners to live a greener, more sustainable life. We have a one-stop home retrofitting service and green loans with a 4.9% interest rate, the lowest rate of any provider in the country.

It would be remiss of me to appear before this committee and not make reference to the availability of government services through our post offices and our desire to do more. We are a point of contact between Irish citizens and Government. We want to work with Government to expand the range of services we offer. That, too, will continue to be a key element of our strategy in the years to come and a key demand of ours to Government.

My particular areas of interest are in governance and in the pursuit of good governance, openness and transparency. This has been a feature of the work of the board of An Post and that will continue. I am now engaged in a process to appoint three new members to the board as we deepen our skills and experience to meet the challenges ahead.

I am excited to chair a company that has set a number of firsts in recent years, including becoming the first major institution in Ireland to eliminate the gender pay gap and to remove carbon emissions from our cities. That ambition and innovation will continue to be the hallmarks of An Post in the years to come. Both will be central to our efforts to deal with the challenges we face in building a company that is fit for the needs of the developing Ireland helping the national recovery. Our purpose is, and will continue to be, to act for the common good, now and for generations to come.

I thank committee members for their time and I am happy to take their questions.

The Chairman has had to step out for a moment so I am stepping into his role. The first person up is Deputy Crowe. Since he is not here, I will take the couple of minutes assigned to him.

I thank Ms Bolger for her work on the board to date. I know the role she will take on as chairman. She comes with considerable experience of An Post, in the first instance, and a very wide area of expertise. She is very much valued by the company. I served as Opposition spokesperson for this area in the past. I recall a time of considerable difficulty for An Post. The then Minister ring me late one night to say he was going to Cabinet the next day with a proposal to increase the price of the postage stamp, such was the perilous nature of the company. I had to go to my parliamentary party and get them to support it from an opposition perspective. We did so because we believed in An Post, its management and board, and all the staff around the country who do a hell of a good job.

We have had issues in the past about the closure of post offices and we would like to keep that under review because we see the post office as a vital component of the heartbeat of many villages. Where post offices have, sadly, closed, it has taken away a significant State involvement in the village. I ask Ms Bolger, in her role as chair, to keep an eye on that, to look for opportunities to retain post offices wherever possible and to try to retain the network.

In recognition of the work of An Post, I would like to particularly compliment to Mr. David McRedmond and Mr. Angus Laverty. They are two people who engage fully with Members of these Houses. Whether the news is bad or good, they are always available. From time to tome, as I have said, we have to deal with the bad news of the closure of post offices on the behalf of our constituents. I have found Mr. Laverty and Mr. McRedmond to be of the greatest support and assistance. I want Ms Bolger to convey to them and to all the staff my thanks and the thanks of all Members of these Houses for the tremendous work they do. They are an invaluable element of the company.

I do not have any direct question for Ms Bolger. I wish her well. She has my support and that of the committee.

Ms Carol Bolger

I thank the Acting Chairman. I will pick up in a couple of the points he has raised. He has mentioned some very important elements. I see this as a company that belongs to the nation. In the opening address of the 2020 annual report, our CEO stated that in 2020, An Post found its soul. The Acting Chairman referred to it as a heartbeat and there is something about An Post that makes it the nation's darling, in a sense. When I was appointed to the board, the Minister at the time told me An Post was the jewel in the nation's crown. I had not looked at the organisation in that light before then but I think it is a jewel. It is an amazing company.

The Acting Chairman mentioned management and we have an amazing leadership team. I appreciate the Acting Chairman's acknowledgement of Mr. McRedmond, Mr. Laverty and all the management team. There is an amazing leadership team in An Post and they do a lot of the heavy lifting and hard work. The board also adds a lot of value but we must appreciate the management and all of our 9,000-odd staff who work hard every day to deliver the services.

The Acting Chairman also mentioned our postmasters and local post offices. My big request today relates to government services, of which we want to provide more. Mr. McRedmond mentioned that on "Today with Claire Byrne" yesterday. We are serious about this. I hope in my tenure as chair over the next few years that we will be able to move forward and add that value. Our nation is bereft of touch-point social contact. We believe we can do a lot more to generate the footfall and business for our postmasters. I thank the Acting Chairman for his remarks.

I congratulate and compliment Ms Bolger on her appointment. It is obvious from her CV that she has the qualifications, knowledge and experience to give good leadership and guidance to An Post at this time, particularly to the board. There is no doubt this is a time of exciting opportunity for An Post. It is important in the new environment that the opportunities are tapped to their full potential.

I also compliment everyone who has been involved with the company during the Covid-19 outbreak to date. As public representatives, we hear complaints from everybody about access to public services. An Post is to be complimented because I have received no complaints about it over the past two years. The team at An Post has done a fantastic job. It has maintained its obligations to the public and has given an excellent service under a lot of pressure.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell resumed the chair.

Ms Bolger mentioned investing in the national post office network. Will she elaborate on that? What is intended in that regard? When does she expect to have the full complement of board members appointed?

I would like to be associated with the expression of thanks to Mr. Laverty and Mr. McRedmond. As public representatives, it is heartening for us to be able to make direct contact with people and to get responses. Part of our job is to represent the views of the public and in many cases, we do not get a response. I compliment An Post for the fact that it keeps in contact with us, makes responses to representations and does the best it can to fulfil the needs that exist on any particular day. I wish Ms Bolger well in her term of office. I hope the future is bright for An Post.

Ms Carol Bolger

I thank the Chairman and appreciate the compliments. I am glad to hear he has not received any complaints. We obviously do get complaints but we deal with them as best we can and, hopefully, resolve them. Overall, our brand is held in good stead.

Deputy Lowry has asked specific questions about our investment in the post office network, and about board members. Our strategy for the next few years outlines our intention to invest between €200 million and €300 million in our post offices generally. That is broadly split on a 50-50 basis between our retail business and our mails and parcels sector. An Post has been reinvigorated in recent years. It has rebranded. We want to become a digital company. We want people to see us as a modern organisation. That investment will continue to see that modernisation in the post office network. Likewise, in the mails and parcels sector, we want to see a best-in-class logistics network. That is where investment will take place.

We have a meeting next week to consider the situation around board membership. We hope to move forward then and I hope we will have made three appointments before Christmas. That might be a challenge but those appointments are imminent. There is great interest in the board, which I find heartening because we need to get the best people we can to lead this organisation into the future. We are aware of the skills we need. We are looking to our organisation for the future and asking where we are taking the organisation. Sustainability is one of our key requirements. We want somebody around the table who can challenge the organisation and support the board in our sustainability agenda, which is a top priority for us as an organisation.

I hope I answered the Deputy's questions.

We strayed slightly there.

I welcome Ms Bolger to the meeting and I congratulate her on her appointment. I hope its ratification will be a formality. I join previous speakers in congratulating Ms Bolger, Mr. Angus Laverty and their team for their engagement with us over the years, particularly during the Covid pandemic.

On post office consolidation, 190 post offices closed in the past two and half years. This has a devastating impact on rural communities. The last post office to close in County Clare was at Broadford, just a few miles back from my home. Under the consolidation plans of An Post, post offices will serve a 15 km radius. How does Ms Bolger see that progressing? Given that the Broadford post office is closed, does this mean that the post office 15 km away or within the 15 km catchment will be saved? Is it about the survival of the fittest, whereby if one falls, the other one is saved?

With regard to the €2 million or €3 million investment that is planned for the post office network, what weighting is given to PostPoints, which may be situated at the back of a shop, versus the physical traditional post office building? PostPoints are great for picking up a few stamps or have a personal weighed and sent off but they do not add real value in terms of the full suite of post office services.

The deal struck by An Post with Bank of Ireland has certainly been a win from a consumer's point of view as people in small villages can carry out banking services at a post office hatch. It has not, however, been a win for postmasters because the post office has largely become an agency bank. The stickers of Bank of Ireland and An Post are visible around the window hatch, but in real terms the service is only worth about €1,200, on average, per postmaster. I hope Ms Bolger will address some of those points in her response.

Ms Carol Bolger

I thank Deputy Crowe. On the first question about the radius, I will not pretend I know the specifics because I do not. I have a notes but I do not have with me. I will certainly revert to the Deputy on the matter.

The Deputy asked whether when one post office falls, another one is saved. Our objective is to have post offices that are viable. That is a big objective. If the very small post offices do not have the footfall or the business, they just cannot be a viable business with individual postmasters. If I may, I will come back to the Deputy on that point after the meeting and provide him with specific detail on the radius and his questions.

Our intention is to support postmasters. They are entrepreneurs and businesspeople who are running their own businesses. If I flip to the Deputy's final question about Bank of Ireland, the objective of that is to increase footfall and develop a suite of products and services. We are currently doing this so that when people come into a post office perhaps to use agency banking, they will then buy additional products because we are selling them and they are exactly what they need.

The Deputy said that PostPoints do not add real value. We must consider our consumers. What does the nation need and what do people need? How do people need to get their parcels delivered and how do they need to collect them? This is a very complex business we are running. Our objective is to deliver to our customers but also to make sure our postmasters can have a viable business. It is a challenging agenda but we believe our strategy will get us home. We have had a very difficult year in 2020 and 2021 with the pandemic. We have survived and we will survive the year. Next year we will, I believe, come back into very good stead with regard to our overall balance sheet and numbers. I hope that answers the Deputy's question. I will come back to him on his question on the 15 km radius because I do not want to give him the wrong information.

I appreciate that. The clock is against us this afternoon. I thank Ms Bolger and wish her well as she starts out in this role. I would, however, argue with one of the points Ms Bolger has made. It is not personal but I believe the track record of An Post over the past several years has been to consolidate the post office network. That is a nice soft way of saying it will close down every second post office in rural Ireland. That is what has happened in reality. Very few of those 190 closures have happened Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford or Galway. They have happened in rural parts, such as County Clare and other counties in the west.

We need to look at what the post office really provides I accept the Bank of Ireland partnership has benefited the consumer and PostPoints are very convenient for periodic users of the post office network, but in real terms we must consider the postmasters who have been the backbone of the community for many years. There are so many other roles they could have, such as in community banking. Many parcels are darted across the country each day. People may order four or five pairs of jeans, keep one pair and send the others back to the retailer. That kind of retail is where consumers have gone. I am not sure An Post is perfectly positioned for that. I hope Ms Bolger can lead that in the chairperson role. Perhaps she will cast a fresh eye over the rural post office network and try to right some of the wrongs of recent years. I wish her every success.

Ms Carol Bolger

I will give Deputy Crowe a commitment. I hear that what he is saying. We have a postmaster representative on our board and he is a voice for the postmasters. It behoves us to ensure everybody gets a fair slice of the cake. At the end of the day, we have to be a viable and sustainable business. These people are self-employed. We want to support them through our products. I believe the Deputy and I are actually singing from the same hymn sheet in what we are saying.

Ms Bolger is very welcome, as is Mr. Laverty. I am relatively new to this committee but I was in the Chair in the Seanad back in 2017 when the price increase was approved. I remember listening to the Minister at the time saying how important it was. It was a substantial increase but it has been shown to have been necessary as the company may have been facing a real viability crisis at the time. It has come through that very well.

The delivery side seems to be going very well, with parcel post and people ordering online. All of that is helping the business and helping the future. I will touch on how An Post will do that sustainably, especially in the cities where electric vehicles and bicycles can be used. I see these around, but postmen and postwomen have been using bicycles for parcels and so on for a long time.

Has an analysis of the company's customer profile, including the age profile, been done? Older people are very comfortable and more willing to put their savings into An Post than into our pillar banks. It is a real credit to An Post that the brand is so strong. People see it as safe and State-backed and understand that it was not responsible for or involved in the crash. Ms Bolger has had a career in banking. I do not mean anything personal in that. People see An Post as strong and safe and, as Ms Bolger said, an asset of the people brand.

Given An Post's customer profile, particularly in respect of age, what additional State services would An Post like to provide? I have in mind the public services card, for which I had to go to an Intreo office. Perhaps postmasters could provide those. Driving licence centres have been set up but could driving licences be processed through An Post?

What services could An Post offer to broaden its customer age profile? People save, use banking services and so on. With Ms Bolger's experience in banking, she will have seen people are not using cash in the same way they were using it even two years ago. I am concerned about broadband, not that it is a bad thing but that it may impact on An Post's customers and its customer base. People using post office services may be able to do this online when they get broadband, thereby bypassing the post office. What strategy does An Post have to address those issues?

Ms Carol Bolger

I thank the Senator. I will go back to what he said about the price increase. I thank everybody for their support on that. That price increase was at a very important time in An Post's history and ensured our viability at the time.

When one considers our balance sheet, as an organisation we have a very low gearing. We do not take State subvention. We have two loans, one from the European Investment Bank and one from the State. The total drawn at the moment is, I believe, €50 million. It must be remembered that our gearing is about 30% as an organisation, which is quite strong. Even though that price increase was critical at the time, viability is something that we are constantly looking at and we are looking out to the future.

The Senator mentioned analysis of our customer profile. An Post is now investing in technology. We have great plans to start to segment and understand our customer base. That is the true way of really understanding what customers need.

The Senator asked what we can do. He asked whether we can do TV licences and INTREO services and the answer is "Yes". We can do everything and we want to provide these services. We are knocking on the Government's door, asking to be given more. If this committee can use its influence in that regard, we would be delighted.

Perhaps we could get a list of services that Ms Bolger feels that An Post can deliver, some of which we may not have even thought about. I ask her to supply us with a list.

Ms Carol Bolger

I will be talking to David McRedmond this evening and I am sure he will have a list submitted very quickly. I thank the Senator for that suggestion. The Senator also spoke about the age profile in the context of broadband. Even though we are moving into a technology-driven world where everything is touch point, if there is one thing we have realised during the pandemic it is that people love people. People love dealing with people. They want to talk to other people and that is especially true of Irish people. Even though we are moving forward with technology, there is always a need for the human touch. I want my daughters to be attracted to An Post and to want to go there for their services. That is my barometer. In fairness to Ms Debbie Byrne and what she has done to our retail side, she has come up with some really innovative products. I urge people to go on to our website and look at our green loan facility. I hope people are thinking of retrofitting their homes and if so, An Post is there to provide the service in that space.

Until I read the opening statement, I was not familiar with that service. I am glad I know about it now but An Post may have a job to do in terms of making others aware of it. As I said, An Post is a really strong and trusted brand. People might be wary of companies offering retrofitting loans but would be much more comfortable with loans that are guaranteed and resourced by An Post.

Ms Carol Bolger

We pride ourselves on our ability to communicate but I totally accept that people miss things. We cannot know everything. An Post has a target to provide 30,000 customers with green hub loans by 2030. Hopefully we will stretch that target further but we have put specific key performance indicators in place for ourselves as an organisation. This is in the national interest. Retrofitting is very topical. Loans are also available for electric vehicles.

I will get a list for the Senator very soon.

I thank Ms Bolger. The cards that An Post gave out during the pandemic allowing people to write to others for free went down really well with people generally but particularly with older people. They missed that human connection, when they were not able to see their grandchildren in person and so on and the card was a really nice touch. It was very well done and I commend whoever thought of it. I wish Ms Bolger the best and encourage her to engage with all committee members. As she said, An Post is a State company, it is our company and we all want it to do well.

Ms Carol Bolger

I am getting a sense that the door is open and I am thankful for that.

I welcome our witnesses and thank them for their attendance today. I join with colleagues in commending the work of An Post staff, including our postmasters, during the pandemic. They were absolutely wonderful.

Ms Bolger has served on the board of An Post since 2017 and I am happy to support her nomination as chairman today. The CEO, Mr. McRedmond, commented earlier this week on the EU custom rules, which he described as anti-postal. I ask Ms Bolger to expand on that.

Ms Carol Bolger

Mr. McRedmond was interviewed on "Today with Claire Byrne" yesterday and he said that what is happening is maddening and is anti-postal. The customs rules have been in operation in Ireland since July, although they will not be mandatory until the end of next year. We have adopted them in Ireland and our customs service has taken them on board. This means that customs duties are payable on items coming in from non-EU countries and obviously, with the UK in that category now, this is causing a lot of angst for customers. Mr. McRedmond argued that the rules are anti-postal because they require small consumers to take action that they do not know they must take. People are supposed to use new forms but they are not aware of them. When they put something through the Royal Mail, they do not realise they need to do something else and ultimately, the parcel does not get to its destination. That is the problem, put simply.

Our CEO would be able to articulate this much better than me but in its simplest form, the rules have changed. I would stress that around 90% of parcels are getting through because the big e-tailers are aware of the rules. We have worked with them but it is impossible for us to work with everybody who might send a small parcel through the post. We cannot communicate with every grandmother sending a parcel to a grandson or every aunt sending one to a nephew or niece. We are doing our very best, along with Royal Mail, but it is messy, complex and hugely frustrating. It is taking up a lot of time in An Post which is costing us money. It will resolve itself over time and certainly by the end of 2022 but at the moment, we are caught in the middle. We are doing everything we can to ease the burden on customers but the duty is payable. As Mr. McRedmond said, it is the law and we must collect the duty. We are not, as an organisation, going to break the law but unfortunately, it is causing a lot of angst for customers and for some Irish consumers.

Mr. McRedmond defended the handling charge when he spoke with Claire Byrne yesterday. He also spoke about the price of stamps potentially increasing again next year. I understand the difficulties around transport inflation. I also accept that there is a need to invest in good infrastructure and in that context, I commend An Post on the roll-out of electronic vehicles in Cork recently. It is brilliant to see an emissions-free delivery service. I am concerned about the potential increase in the price of stamps and ask Ms Bolger to elaborate on that before I move on to a question on the post office network.

Ms Carol Bolger

Mr. McRedmond did not give a firm commitment in that regard. It is something we have to keep under review.

No, but he alluded to it, in fairness.

Ms Carol Bolger

He did not say he would not increase the price. If we stand back from this, at the end of the day An Post must be a viable business. Like all other businesses, our costs are increasing. Mr. McRedmond referred to transport inflation of 13% and to a 300% increase in the cost of flights. We have to take those costs on board. We do not want to increase our prices and would prefer it if we did not have to do so. However, in order for the business to be viable and for An Post as a company, which is 200 years in existence, to continue for hundreds more years we have to balance the books. Unfortunately, pricing is one of the levers that we have to utilise. That said, if one compares An Post to its peer organisations globally, we are very competitively priced in terms of our fees and charges. We make all of these decisions very carefully and we sense check with the market. To be honest, we feel we give good value.

Mr. McRedmond mentioned the €3.50 handling charge which is to cover the additional costs incurred in handling the problematic parcels. If parcels come in and we cannot deliver them, which is what we are passionate about doing, we have warehousing costs and handling expenses we must meet. He mentioned a figure of €6 million to €8 million for this year for those additional costs. In terms of good governance and good business, we have to accept that price increases are sometimes inevitable. That said, it is not our first port of call. We want to become a much more efficient organisation and one of our strategic objectives is to keep working on our efficiencies.

My final question relates to the future viability of our post offices and our postmasters. This committee has done some work on this issue previously. Senator Carrigy in particular has done a lot of work in this area and has championed the cause of post offices and postmasters. What is Ms Bolger's rallying call to the postmasters and post offices around the country?

Ms Carol Bolger

First, we have supported our postmasters, particularly this year. We have reviewed their contracts and new contracts are now in place. The pandemic took the wind out of the sails of postmasters because footfall dropped significantly. We have supported them this year and that will continue into next year. My rallying call is actually to the Government to enable us to deliver more services. The postmasters are chomping at the bit to serve their customers. They want to do more and if we can give them more products and services, particularly government services, they will be more viable.

I ask Ms Bolger to explain what she means by government services and to outline the engagement An Post has had with the Government to date.

Ms Carol Bolger

Our management team has been engaging with the Government. Our CEO would be much closer to this than me but I know it has been a source of frustration for us. I accept that the Government is very busy and there is a lot going on but we believe we can do more. We really do believe that. A previous speaker mentioned things like licences. I have a colleague who is currently trying to get a licence and if that could be done through the post office, it would be much quicker. There is a lot we can do. We want to speak to the Government about services it currently undertakes or may undertake in the future.

There is a harp above An Post's door for a reason. We want to provide Government services and we feel we can do more.

The sky is the limit. Can we help more with the HSE? I am not sure. Maybe there is much more we could do but I will commit to getting a list as promised after the meeting.

During the pandemic, we have seen the importance of our post office network. We saw what happened with the banks leaving rural Ireland. In many places the post office has also left because you cannot get postmasters to come in and replace outgoing or retiring postmasters. That is something we need to have a real conversation about. I thank Ms Bolger and her staff.

I have another meeting that I must go to at 4.30 p.m. so I thank Ms Bolger and Mr. Laverty for being here and wish them well.

We need to have a conversation about our post office network infrastructure, particularly in rural Ireland. We have a society that is migrating more online. It worries me when I see people talk about Black Friday and deals online. It is a contradiction given that An Post is delivering parcels but we should support local. I see our post offices as being that local entity.

Ms Carol Bolger

If I may add to that. If people buy Irish online this week it will really help us as a nation as well.

I add my voice to those praising the fabulous work being done by the An Post network particularly over the pandemic. We have good interaction with its team. I thank Mr. Angus Laverty in particular for the work he has done. He has always been entirely accessible. I want to put that on the record.

Some of the difficulties that have arisen since July relating to customs since Brexit were mentioned. Some smaller operators did not have the wherewithal to get their acts together. I understand there has been interaction with Royal Mail but I believe that some difficulty arose because the filtering system was not working in Britain. Packages would land, be sent to Ireland and it was at that stage a mistake would be discovered. An Post had a huge amount of work to do on warehousing and that clogged up the flow of packages where there were no problems. Where are we with this now? There was talk that there would be a Santa Claus supply chain problem. Are we there or are we beyond that?

Ms Carol Bolger

I would hate to think that we would have a Santa Claus supply chain problem. It is very much an issue for the smaller retailers and consumers. It is a current problem and I think that we have to accept that. We are working to our utmost with Royal Mail to resolve the issue. The other challenge in the UK is that the Royal Mail and Post Office are two separate businesses. Royal Mail is a listed company. Even that entity is not like ourselves. All I can say is that we are doing our absolute best. Resolving this is the one thing that is exercising the leadership team's agenda at the moment. We are doing everything we can but the ultimate fix is not within our gift. We must collect the duties and unless these parcels and packages arrive in the right format, we have that challenge. I want to leave here today having let the committee know that we are serious about this issue. We are passionate about trying to resolve it. It is breaking our heart as an organisation that we are having complaints from people because it is not the way that we operate or want to operate but it is a very complex problem. We believe that in time it will resolve itself but at the moment it is a big issue.

I accept that. Are we still talking about a situation where warehouses are full and this is delaying other packages coming through? Is it as bad as it was a couple of months ago? Is it worse? Where are we at in resolving that?

What interaction has An Post had with Customs and Revenue here in relation to any possible fixes or mitigations?

Ms Carol Bolger

Our CEO is actively engaging with Customs and Revenue. As a board member, I have not been involved in those discussions myself. I know that our CEO is and is doing everything he can to resolve the issue. I have not had the latest information on warehousing. I did not get any reports of a problem around warehousing but I will investigate that and respond to the committee. I can give an update on the situation. We would get updates if there was anything serious and I have no updates on any backlogs at the moment.

There was a narrative that there was a huge amount of difficulties. I was hoping this would be an opportunity to get a complete update on where we are now and how serious the situation is now compared to a month or two ago. If Ms Bolger could come back with that information, it would be vital. It is something that the committee needs to tease out. If something needs to happen at our end, we need to make sure that we have the conversation.

I refer to An Post's business model. At one stage it was the delivery provider for Amazon which provided it with a huge amount of work. It is still doing that for Amazon in harder to reach rural areas but that probably does not provide the same revenue. Amazon has taken over its delivery in many urban areas. How will that impact on An Post's business model in future?

There are complaints at the other end of the spectrum. Small online operators here would say that Amazon and other large operators get a really good deal from An Post which they feel they do not. Those are two separate questions relating to companies at either end.

Ms Carol Bolger

We would view Amazon as both a competitor and a customer and we work with it. Our model is very different in how we operate, with elements such as the way we engage with and employ our staff, and decent work. It is a competitive business. Our business model factors that in. We factor for growth and for changes. Who would have ever thought that we would have this pandemic? We have had to pivot the organisation and thankfully we have survived. Similarly, with the likes of Amazon, who knows what might be coming down the tracks? Our challenge as a board and leadership team is to try to look around corners and see what is coming and make sure we keep the organisation fit for purpose. People will always have a challenge on pricing. We pride ourselves on our ability to deliver to 2.2 million addresses in Ireland every day, right across the nation. That is one of our strong points. Not every delivery company can do that but we can. We will go to the Blasket Islands or whereever we need to go. Sometimes I feel that we do not compare like with like when we look at organisations like Amazon. For our business model we look at all factors that might come into play for the future of this industry which is ever changing and very dynamic. Even on that, what happened in 2020 accelerated parcel deliveries by about ten years. We achieved a level that we did not think would happen so quickly. It is ever changing.

We have seen a change recently with things improving slightly and retailers reopening so there was a drop in parcels. That is increasing again now for Christmas. We are learning all the time and building our business model around those kinds of models and natural things that happen.

Can Ms Bolger respond on the small operators and their perception they do not get bang for buck from An Post compared with the treatment for larger vendors?

Ms Carol Bolger

We have the advantage card for SMEs. We have bundling. We have a fantastic offering at the moment. We supported SMEs by about €2 million during the pandemic. We have done a lot to try to support them and we always want to be competitive. Sometimes you can come across organisations such as Amazon, they might price slightly differently. However, it is our intention to do fair and economic pricing that ensures the sustainability of An Post.

I think the committee has some questions that we need to put to An Post and would include the wider question of sustainability and community banking. Where is An Post in relation to the ongoing review?

Ms Carol Bolger

The current strategy will run to 2026. Our green light programme focuses on three elements, e-commerce, which is our parcels business; community banking, which is our postmasters and post offices, and part of which includes the provision of Government services; and corporate services, which are our essential services, digitalisation and technology. We have a very clear strategy in terms of where we want to go over the next five years. I am happy to the come back to the committee on any specifics or details it would like in regard to the strategy.

I thank Ms Bolger. There are two non-members indicating. I call Senator Carrigy, followed by Senator Eugene Murphy. The Senators have three minutes each.

I thank the Chairman. I welcome Ms Bolger and I wish her well in her new role. It is important to first put on the record that I am a postmaster in Longford. I am well aware of the situation. As pointed out by Ms Bolger, the An Post network is a jewel in the nation's crown. Somebody else mentioned that it is our national company and that, as in the case of Aer Lingus, we should take pride in it. An Post needs to be supported and maintained. A recent Grant Thornton report included a modelling exercise on the value of the network to the country based on a report done in the UK. It put the value of the network to the country at €500 million, which is a significant amount. It is imperative that Government supports An Post.

We are in a very difficult period. The pandemic payment put in place by An Post runs until 31 December 2022 but the reality is there has been a significant reduction in wages for a large number of postmasters. Many of them will, I believe, decide to leave on the basis of gratuity payments etc. It will be extremely difficult to get other people to fill those positions and this may lead to significant closures in about 18 months' time. There was mention of the type of services that Government should provide. I refer to the recent issue with regard to the delays in respect of passport applications, which we are now dealing with daily. Under the Passport Express service, one can wait up to two months to get a passport. That is wrong. We have seen figures in regard to the significant number of applications made online in respect of which issues arose with regard to documentation. The postmaster goes through an application to make sure it is correct and so such applications should be dealt with and prioritised in the same way as applications made in other ways. Motor tax is a no-brainer in terms of roll-out across the post office network. When the tender for the driving licence service was issued a number of years back, An Post could not tender for it even though it has a network of offices across the country. The decision was made to set up approximately 60 new offices throughout the country to which people now have to travel 40 or 50 miles to complete the paperwork to apply for a driving licence. They are only a small number of the services that Government can provide.

The bedrock of An Post service provision is social protection payments. As I understand it, there has been a 12% decline in welfare payments by An Post and that is continuing on a downward spiral. Social protection payments are the foundation of the network. We will be in a very difficult situation in a very short period if that trend continues. Throughout Covid, the Department of Social Protection officials were contacting people and asking them to move their payments from the post office to the bank. That has to be called out.

Senator Carrigy, do you have a question?

What do we need to maintain the network throughout the country and to maintain communities and the footfall in our small towns and villages and urban areas?

Ms Carol Bolger

The Senator and I are in agreement in terms of our comments. We want to do more. We are trying to develop products and services that people want from post offices. As mentioned yesterday on "Today with Claire Byrne" we do not want to be "me too"; we want to have innovation around our products such that they will be products that will attract people into the post offices. We need to be much more innovative about how we get people in and how we ensure transactions are profitable for postmasters as well. The Senator mentioned the reduction in welfare benefits, which is huge. The post offices also suffered losses last year in regard to foreign exchange because of the pandemic. It has been a very difficult year for postmasters. I understand that.

We need to put on our thinking caps and to go through the list of services that could be provided by post offices, some of which the Senator listed. We are chomping at the bit to provide those services. Today, maybe, is a catalyst for us as an organisation in that through our engagement with Government through this committee we will open a door. We will do everything we can to support the postmasters to have a broader suite of products and services that they can sell.

Co-location has been a positive for us as well. Senator Carrigy mentioned that where postmasters have retired it has been difficult to replace them. That is a challenge that we and postmasters are faced with. Approximately 67% of our contract offices are co-located. That is a model that will serve us well into the future. We continue to explore that. I thank the Senator for his contributions.

As we migrate from the PUP to jobseekers these payments should, I believe, be brought back into the post office network. I accept that throughout Covid it was safer for them to be paid into bank accounts. The reality is banks are closing. I understand AIB is to close more of its branches. Where these payments are paid into the banks rather than through the post office network a significant amount of money is being lost to the Exchequer. The latter requires people to turn up every week to sign for their payment and this ensures that only the person who is entitled to the payment gets it and, therefore, there is less fraud.

Ms Carol Bolger

It prevents fraud.

There is a very high level of fraud in the system where payments are paid into the banks. That needs to be looked at by the Department of Social Protection. I understand that in 2019-2020, unclaimed payments amounted to €60 million. If one takes out of that payments that were stopped, in the region of €30 million would have been refunded by An Post to the Department. However, once that money went into the bank accounts it was gone. We need to look at that bigger picture.

Ms Carol Bolger

I thank Senator Carrigy.

The next speaker is Senator Eugene Murphy.

I welcome Ms Bolger and I wish her well. All of us have a great pride in An Post. That is to be seen when people, including politicians, rally together when a post office is to be closed owing to lack of footfall. There is always a great regret when that happens. Throughout Covid, the staff of An post and our postmen and post women have been a credit to the organisation. Their communication with people, in particular older people and people with disabilities, has been extraordinary. Like many politicians, I deal with a lot of older people and people with disabilities and that was the message often relayed to me in regard to An Post. I have a brother who is a postman. I know from him of all of the extra work being done by our postmen and post women. The men and women of An post who knocked on doors and engaged with people throughout Covid deserve every good thing we can say about them.

I have a number of questions for Ms Bolger. She may not have answers to all them now and, if so, that is fine. Before doing so, I ask Ms Bolger to put on her Santa Claus hat. I love letter writing. Three or four years ago when I was a Deputy I launched a campaign to encourage people to send a Christmas card by post. One of the asks at the time was that An Post would reduce the price of a stamp for Christmas. I do not think I am going to win on this one, but it would be a great if An Post, to encourage people to buy a card and stamp, reduced the price of the stamp to €1. It is just a thought but it would be a lovely-----

Ms Carol Bolger

If I might interject, An Post provides bundles. If the Senator visits our website he will see the offers.

I do not want two extra stamps, I want every stamp to be reduced. I appreciate Mr. Bolger's point. On the promotion of post offices, have the witnesses ever gone onto university campuses, spoken to young people and encouraged them to become part of An Post business or sell its business?

There could be small units on campuses. A lot of young people might buy into that. People tend to assume technology does everything these days and that we should not even bother trying to sell something. I am a great believer in getting among people and telling them what a business offers. I ask An Post to consider, on a temporary or pilot basis, putting temporary post offices on campuses. It might be worth doing.

Are any post offices being opened nowadays? We all hear about the closures, but is any being opened? I do not want to go back and forth, but I have another question. I agree with Senator Carrigy regarding social welfare payments. They are vital to the survival of post offices, in particular in many rural areas. Ms Bolger may not have this information, but has the workforce reduced or increased in recent years?

Ms Carol Bolger

The Senator has a few questions. On Christmas cards, I hope everybody posts plenty of them this year because we need a bumper Christmas. The idea of post offices on campuses is something we can explore. I do not know if we have looked into it. I could be wrong, but I could definitely look into that. When I was in the bank we regularly went on to campuses and talked to people. It is a great idea.

I cannot answer the question on whether we have opened post offices. I do not believe we have. We have revamped post offices, including St. Andrew's Street, Merrion Row and Castleknock, which is my locality. There has been huge investment in revamping. One of the challenges is getting postmasters to operate new post offices. What was the final question?

It was about announcing the stamp offer for Christmas. Senator Murphy is looking for an answer on the reduced stamp offer.

Ms Carol Bolger

He wants stamps.

I am on the side of the workforce.

Ms Carol Bolger

I might have to send him some.

I will take that. Forget about the other ones for now.

Ms Carol Bolger

The question on staff numbers is a great question. Our complement is around 9,700, of whom 1,000 are casual staff. When we set out our strategy in 2017, the objective was to have a more efficient organisation and a right sizing of the organisation. Given the pandemic, we have to move our staff towards becoming involved in parcels. There has not been a significant change in numbers. There is always natural attrition and reductions taking place. We have far fewer staff than we had years ago, but it is something we keep our focus on. Efficiency is what we want to talk about all of the time. I hope that answers the Senator's question.

Do not forget about the cheap stamp.

Ms Carol Bolger

If the Senator goes online this evening he will see the offers.

Are any members looking to come in? I have a few brief questions. I wish Ms Bolger well in her new role. In a former life, I was a self-employed chartered accountant. I dealt with many people who were setting up a business. If they came to me, we looked for core things in any town and village, namely a national school, a church, a bank and a post office. If there was a post office in a town or village we knew there was activity in that town or village which was a key part of infrastructure within any town or village.

Broadband and telecoms companies all want to set up networks. Not too long ago there were railways in every square inch of Ireland. For whatever reason, many were disbanded and houses were built instead. We now want to rebuild our railways. I ask that everything is done to maintain and use the An Post network. It brings links to communities. There is a review under way. Ms Bolger is the chair of a board. What can be done to enhance the services and ensure that An Post keeps its network? Once a network goes, it is very difficult to bring it back. Ms Bolger might comment on that, and the priorities for An Post.

It is about ensuring that we do not throw out the baby with the bath water. Myriad areas are affected when a network goes. We are now considering establishing rail links the length and breadth of Ireland. In many cases, we may have to purchase land where tracks were previously laid but which are now in private ownership. Ms Bolger might give her perspective on that. I represent Limerick City. Postmasters are extremely worried at the moment. They are apprehensive. They provide a vital service. Ms Bolger might give me her overall thoughts on their future.

Ms Carol Bolger

I thank the Chair. I agree with him. It behoves us to keep a vibrant network. Yesterday, the Minister for Finance launched the terms of reference for a banking review. When I read it last night I was struck by whether that would involve a role for An Post. We do not have a banking licence, but we have significant financial services activity. Much of that is done through postmasters. I would be interested in seeing what comes from that because the answer is providing more products and services through our post offices. We have to be viable. Sustainability is the other word I will bring into that conversation. If we can provide more services and they can be viable we would all be happy.

We might look at the review of banking services to make certain that the terms of reference will consider the role of post offices. They are already playing a role in that they provide banking services. We should consider an enhanced role. Having enhanced services would enable An Post to retain and deliver its core services as well.

Ms Carol Bolger

Exactly. With the dislocation in banking and Ulster Bank and KBC pulling out of Ireland, we will be left with a lot of issues in rural Ireland. If we can step in in some way within our remit and all of the things we do, we would be very happy to support that. It is something that would be on our agenda.

I thank Ms Bolger.

My question relates to some of what was said earlier. It was pointed out to me previously that if one is talking about new services from the State, if anything requires tendering An Post would fail unless the tendering process was changed to a degree that would take into account the social and community work of post offices, to paraphrase what was said. Could Ms Bolger comment on that?

We will need a further interaction to get an update on the proposals and where we perceive changes can be made, whether that involves financial or Government services. The ongoing Government review of the future of the postal service is also relevant. If we cannot supply new services and the post office network does not provide a business model that works, we are into a PSO. We all accept the necessity of keeping the post office network up and running.

Ms Carol Bolger

The Deputy mentioned tendering. We have to tender for the TV licence renewal. As with any tender, we may not always win. We have very high standards in our tendering and have policy on it. Sustainability comes into our tendering. It is a level playing field when it comes to tendering. I am not saying it should not be, but when it comes to Government services there should be a special place for An Post in terms of being able to deliver many of the services that our citizens and communities require.

That will require a change to how tendering system works to take into account the community and social work, for want of a better term.

Ms Carol Bolger

That social aspect to what An Post does is unique, and it is a question of how we put a value on that as it is very special. I totally support fair tendering but I think we have unique circumstances when it comes to Government services and the way we can deliver these services to our communities, given the national reach we have. We have over 900 postmasters and we have 45 post offices that are An Post-operated, so we have a strong distribution channel and network within the country, which means we are ideally placed to provide those services.

We need to maintain it. I wish Ms Bolger good luck into the future. We will probably put in a submission in regard to having further interaction on the Brexit-related issues and the future of the post office.

When Ms Bolger settles down in the role, we would love to have her back, along with her management team, to discuss a comprehensive future for An Post. That is vital. I would not like to see any slippage in terms of securing the future of An Post. Obviously, this concerns the postmasters, their employees and more particularly the people they serve on the ground. A letter and transcript of this meeting will issue to the Minister, Deputy Ryan, outlining that the committee has met with Ms Bolger. I thank Ms Bolger for attending this meeting and for her forbearance and patience with the delays, as well as for engagement with the committee. I wish her well in her new role.

The joint committee adjourned at 4:51 p.m until 1.40 p.m on Wednesday, 1 December 2021.
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