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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Dec 2021

Transport Infrastructure Ireland: Chairperson Designate

No apologies have been received. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the chairperson designate of Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, Mr. Gareth Llewellyn, to the meeting. You are most welcome, Mr. Llewellyn. Thank you for agreeing to attend at such short notice. It is good that you are coming before us so early after your appointment.

I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identified person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

For witnesses attending remotely, outside of the Leinster House campus, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege. As such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present does. Witnesses participating in this meeting from a jurisdiction outside the State are advised that they should also be mindful of their domestic law and how it might apply to the evidence they give.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House campus to participate in public meetings. Reluctantly, I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member participating via Microsoft Teams, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, to confirm that he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I invite Mr. Llewellyn to make his opening statement.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

Tráthnóna maith, prynhawn da and good afternoon. I thank both the Chair and the members of the committee for the kind invitation to join them today. I am very much looking forward to the opportunity to engage with them on the important role TII plays in delivering sustainable transport infrastructure and services across Ireland.

I was both delighted and honoured to be offered the role of chair designate of TII by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, on 23 November last. I was invited to attend the TII board meeting on that day and I extend my thanks and gratitude to my predecessor, Mr. Cormac O’Rourke, for his outstanding stewardship of the organisation.

I thought it may be helpful to start by outlining my background and experience, particularly as it relates to the role of the chair of TII. As members will have no doubt deduced from my surname, I am Welsh. I studied at Swansea University, following which I undertook research at Southampton University. I have leadership training through Harvard Business School, with more recent training in digital transformation from the University of Cambridge Judge Business School and corporate finance training from Columbia University in the United States.

I spent my early career in the public sector with the UK’s Environment Agency and its predecessor, the National Rivers Authority. In 2000, I joined the global energy business, National Grid plc, where, among other roles, I was group director responsible for safety, health and sustainability for operations across the US, Latin America, Australia, Africa and the UK. I undertook the same role for the global mining business, Anglo American plc, following which I became executive director for safety, technical and engineering for Network Rail, the owner of the rail infrastructure in Britain.

Mr. Llewellyn, the sound is not great. I understand you are using headphones. The technical staff are telling us that the sound quality may be better if you just use the microphone as distinct from the headphones.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I will see what I can do.

We will suspend briefly.

Sitting suspended at 1.45 p.m. and resumed at 1.47 p.m.

I thank Mr. Llewellyn and invite him to continue his opening statement.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I became executive director for safety, technical and engineering for Network Rail, which is the owner of rail infrastructure in Britain. In March 2016, I became the chief executive of the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency, a government trading fund delivering services to over 40 million customers. I retired from that role in December of last year.

I have also been fortunate to have a parallel non-executive career. I floated the waste management company, Biffa plc, where I chaired the board HSE committee and I set up the UK’s Renewable Fuels Agency where I chaired the audit and risk committee. I am currently a non-executive director and chair of the remuneration and nominations committee at Harwich Haven Authority, where we provide the pilots for the world’s largest container ships arriving at the Port of Felixstowe. I fulfil the same role at Sage Housing, a private equity-backed provider of high-quality, affordable and social housing in England. For the past 16 years, I have been a fellow at the Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership, providing training for businesses on issues such as net zero carbon, human rights and commercialising sustainable development.

My infrastructure experience has been reasonably extensive, ranging from overhead power lines in the UK, undersea power cables in Australia, a new port in Brazil, rail infrastructure in the UK to deepening the channel in the North Sea to accommodate future growth in container ships.

With regard to corporate governance, my experience ranges from establishing a new government agency, chairing board committees in both the private and the private equity sectors, chairing a government trading fund until I appointed an independent chair and as a member of governance committees for two global listed companies. I hope my experience on safety, standards and sustainability will be of benefit to TII as takes its next step on its journey.

I was told previous to the meeting that the committee is interested in hearing my views on the strategic priorities while in the role. I need to preface any views I may offer by informing the committee I was appointed nine days ago. As such, I am very early on in my assessment of the expectations placed on TII and the overall governance arrangements needed to ensure TII is successful. Therefore, please take the following statements as my very early views.

The first area is the national development plan, NDP. As this committee knows better than anybody, the NDP was published in October 2021 and sets out the development activities for national roads and public transport projects that Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, will address between 2021 and 2030. It should be recognised that, of course, TII is first and foremost a delivery organisation working in collaboration with local authorities while taking its lead from both the Department of Transport on national roads and national greenways, and the National Transport Authority, NTA, in regard to both the Luas and MetroLink.

In an ideal world, funding would be made available to support all projects irrespective of their stage of development. However, TII must operate within the funding made available and will take its lead from the Department of Transport and the NTA in determining where investment should be best made to achieve value for money and to deliver more sustainable transport infrastructure and services.

Against this backdrop, however, maintaining the assets we already have across the road and Luas rail network is essential for the safety of users, maintaining the value of those assets and ensuring continuity of service delivery. TII’s knowledge of the condition of assets, being proactive in their maintenance and, where needed, renewal, will reduce the risk as well as the inconvenience to the travelling public and the risk of significant additional investment associated with asset failure; that is the one thing one needs to avoid. Maintaining existing assets is both common sense and good value. Unfortunately, it does not result in too many photo opportunities, which is some of the downside.

When it comes to new infrastructure, whether it be a new road or light rail, such as MetroLink, for example, I am very conscious that external factors can often result in delays adding cost to the project and leaving the public waiting longer than expected before they see improvements in travel. TII has a proven history of delivering projects and the skills and capability to deliver the new infrastructure. It will need to work closely with stakeholders to ensure any potential delays at all stages in the process are minimised.

The second area is the carbon action plan. The conclusions of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, IPCC, recently reinforced at COP26, serve to highlight the importance of a transition to net zero carbon by 2050 if we are to keep global temperature increases to below 1.5°C. In keeping with the EU’s Fit for 55, the Government has set a target for a 51% reduction in emissions by 2030. Road transport is, at present, responsible for around 18% of Ireland’s carbon emissions. In playing its role in reducing this impact, TII will work closely with the Department of Transport and others.

For example, modal shift from personal vehicles to public transport and active travel, demand management interventions and changes to infrastructure design. Accommodating growth in electric, hybrid and hydrogen-fuelled vehicles require policy interventions, investment in infrastructure and new services. All represent a sizeable challenge and TII will need to assess how its obligations in the NDP can deliver the required change. With its highly professional and capable workforce, TII will play an important role in facilitating the change and delivering the carbon reduction targets.

The third area is road safety strategy. As the committee knows, TII has a duty to deliver a safe and efficient national road network and a strategic goal to improve the safety of light rail. The safety of transport users, of our colleagues and of our contractors and partners is of paramount importance. Everyone has a right to get home safe at the end of every day. That is very simple. In addition to its maintenance, renewal and enhancement of infrastructure and its management of the road and light rail network, TII will deliver projects and programmes to support the soon to be published road safety strategy.

As we seek to encourage active travel, embedding the safe systems approach into TII’s design standards and guidance documents will be important for enhancing safety for vulnerable road users.

One safety enhancement currently being implemented is the dynamic traffic management system on the M50. I understand that the Chair and members of this committee visited the motor operations control centre to gain an understanding of the project to inform its scrutiny of the legislation that will make the variable speed limits and lane closures enforceable. I hope members found that visit useful and, of course, members are more than welcome to visit again should they need to.

From a finance perspective, in the annual report in 2020, TII acknowledged the support from both the outgoing Minister and the current Minister, Deputy Ryan, given the impact Covid-19 had on income, particularly in relation to tolling and light rail operations. With the reintroduction of some restrictions, income is again likely to be affected during 2021 and into 2022. TII will continue to ensure its activities are delivered as efficiently as it can, thereby keeping any further recourse to public funds to a minimum.

The precise timing of expenditure for multi-year capital programmes can be uncertain. Projects can be subject to delays in the planning process as well as unexpected factors which arise during construction. TII will continue to engage with stakeholders to reduce any such delays and will continually improve programme planning to optimise the allocation of resources.

I will turn to my final area which is around governance for success. As I mentioned to the board when they met on 23 November, my primary goal as chair is to ensure TII is successful in delivering its statutory responsibilities and its obligations under the NDP. In this regard, I see the board as having three critical roles: to ensure the organisation’s strategy aligns with TII’s statutory responsibilities and Government priorities and is deliverable within the funding envelope; to ensure the executive benefit from access to the counsel, guidance and advice of the talented non-executive directors on the TII board; and to ensure TII efficiently delivers infrastructure and services which stand the test of time, contribute to reducing carbon and keep the travelling public safe whether they travel by light rail or road.

Through discussions prior to my appointment, I have the sense that existing governance arrangement and capability of colleagues at TII are both held in high regard. That said, of course, the future always involves an element of change, and ensuring the governance model is set up for success will be a key focus for me.

I thank the committee for its time and I am, of course, very happy to answer any questions as best I can.

I thank Mr. Llewellyn. We will now move to members. Our first member is Senator Horkan in the Fianna Fáil slot. I call Senator Horkan, who has seven minutes.

I thank Mr. Llewellyn for his very comprehensive opening statement. It is clear he has much experience in both the public and private sectors, both in executive and non-executive roles, in particular, chairing, and they are all skills he can bring to the role he has. If it is not too rude to ask, why TII? How did Mr. Llewellyn - a person who does not appear to have any Irish connections, either in his CV or otherwise - end up here?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I was once told that the Welsh were Irish with wet feet, so there are some common connections. I have been asked the question that the Senator just asked numerous times over the last couple of weeks. I will give him the same answer I have been giving, that there are three reasons. One reason is the commonality of purpose. Having a sustainable transport network has such an impact on all of the priorities within the NDP. It improves access for people to get education, healthcare, access to public services and for employment reasons. If it is delivered sustainably, it has a better impact on the environment and it has a huge impact on the economy. My view of sustainable transport aligns with where TII is heading, which is important to me. The second reason is that there is enough challenge here. I have always worked in businesses where, in many cases, the organisation has been in distress. That is not the case with TII, but there is a challenge here with MetroLink and some of the investments that we have coming. There is a sufficient challenge for me to feel as though it is a good organisation to join. The third bit is if I can add value, and if I cannot, then the Senator is probably talking to the wrong person. However, from the experience I have had working around the world with some very big companies, but also working in the public sector, I can add some value to both the board and in mentoring the executive as well. With those things in mind, I looked at TII and thought that it was something worth applying for.

How did Mr. Llewellyn find out about the role? Was he scouring various websites or was he approached? There is no reason he would not be approached because he clearly has an excellent CV for it. How did he discover the role was available?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I thought somebody might ask me that. The process started probably in March of this year, so it has been a rather lengthy process. I actually cannot remember, but it was not a direct approach. I am pretty sure that somebody, such as a previous contact, had pointed me to the role.

To clarify, Mr. Llewellyn became aware the role was about to become available at some point and he applied through the public appointments process? He put in his CV and had interviews and all the rest of it?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

Indeed, I had three sets of interviews and I applied through the website.

It is just useful for people looking in to realise that it is a totally transparent process.

Mr. Llewellyn became aware of the vacancy, he put his name forward, his CV was considered along with, I am sure, many other people's and here we are. I wish to bring to bear all his experience, the mix of public and private both in the UK and abroad, on a few of the points I wish to raise, in particular what he thinks he might bring to the role in trying to speed up the never-ending saga that is the Luas extension and MetroLink. Parts of north Dublin, the airport and so on are crying out for that and it seems it is disappearing further into the future every week or every month. When does Mr. Llewellyn see the first passenger on MetroLink, and is there anything he can do to speed up that process or any interventions he can make that may help speed it up?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I would be a fool to put a date as to when the first passenger will be on MetroLink so, if the Senator will excuse me, I will not answer that question.

It is always worth asking.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

Yes, I know, but I simply do not know. Let me start in a slightly different place. The Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy Bridge was the largest of its type anywhere in the world. Yes, there were a few issues with it, but there normally are when something new of that type and at that scale is built. TII has won international awards for that delivery. That tells me that the management there knows how to deliver complex projects, and we know that MetroLink will be a very big, complex project. When it is clear in the national development plan, NDP, that there is a 2:1 investment in favour of public transport, it means MetroLink is very important, not just for Dublin but for Ireland more generally. People who live elsewhere in Ireland will come in through Dublin Airport, and access onto other forms of transport is needed.

The one thing I would reflect on, given the scale of these projects, is that the more that can be done early during the scheme design with experts sitting around the table, the better placed you will be to put the right contracts out for procurement and to manage those contracts going forward. I will give the Senator a good example. If you are standing on a platform and there is a metro train coming in two minutes' time, that information needs to be connected into the central control room, which then needs to be connected into the signalling system and the trains themselves. That type of interface and the overall system integration needs to be defined right at the start, because if it is not got right, you end up with inevitable delays and cost overruns as the programme is implemented. My advice to TII, therefore, and my stance is to make sure it gets in place experts on this in the organisation now, not in two years' time, in order that it will have the right scheme design and that, when the contracts go out, it will be clear to the people bidding what those interfaces need to be in order that they can be managed successfully from day one. If that is not done, I think there will be, as I said, cost overruns and the projects will be delayed further.

It is very important that MetroLink is prioritised. Not only is it very important for the entire region involved and the airport, but it also touches on what Mr. Llewellyn is talking about: sustainability, modal shift, reducing emissions and so on. The number of people driving to Dublin Airport and parking there and the number of people who are not able to use public transport to get there is phenomenal. Post pandemic, MetroLink will be very important.

I will make a final point, if I may. As for metro safety, Mr. Llewellyn talked about the safety of light rail. Did he mean interaction with cars or the passenger experience on board of thuggish or antisocial behaviour?

As for road safety, Mr. Llewellyn talked about demand management interventions, not just on the M50 but generally. I know that in the UK there are average speeds on many motorways over long distances, which I do not think we have here.

I also wish to touch on the issue of the N20. I am sure many other members will touch on it. There was a large article in a newspaper at the weekend about it being the most dangerous road, that is, the road with the highest number of fatalities in recent years. What does Mr. Llewellyn think he might be able to do to improve not only light rail safety on the carriages and in its interaction with everything else but also road safety generally? It has improved a lot but there is room for further improvement.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

There is quite a lot in those questions. I will do my best to answer them.

When I was at Network Rail, I was as much concerned with the passenger on the train as I was with anybody interacting with the train. It does not really matter who you are; the whole purpose is to make sure those people are safe. That extended not only to understanding at what point in the year we would see broken or buckled rails or signals passed at danger, SPADs, in certain parts, but also to people's behaviour around level crossings, for example. We would have a significant number of serious incidents in which cars would deliberately circumvent the barriers at level crossings and come into contact with trains or have near misses. There is a lot of behavioural change involved there. It is very similar to being on a tram system. How do you persuade a cyclist not to cycle across or in front of a tram, for example? I have worked with those sorts of safety interventions for a chunk of my career at Network Rail. I do not make a distinction between the passenger and the people outside. They are all just as valuable.

The Senator's second question was, I think, about the N20-M20. Is that right?

Yes. There was a large article in a weekend newspaper about how dangerous that road is and how many fatalities have taken place on it. What can TII do to improve that? Obviously, the M20 is a bigger project, but even in the short term, what can be done to the N20 to reduce the number of fatalities on it?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

Nine days into my role, the Senator will be surprised to know that I do not know an inordinate amount about the N20. I know that the road from Limerick to Cork, as he rightly says, has some serious safety issues. TII has a duty to provide a safe and efficient road network, so road safety is a core part of what it does. As I understand it, the upgrade from the N20 to the M20 is in the NDP, so it is a project that will go ahead. I understand that the preferred route will be known in the early part of next year and the business case will follow thereafter. Clearly, if there is anything TII believes needs to happen in the short term to improve serious safety issues, no doubt it will look at that, but I have not investigated that so far.

Finally, I raised the issue of the average speed if you are going from Dublin to Cork or Dublin to Limerick. Mr. Llewellyn also referred to demand management. Does that mean tolling or not?

I have been very liberal with the time.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

Demand management can involve a mixture of things. I am thinking specifically about the M50. If there are nearly 1,200 incidents per year on that motorway, about 22 per week, and the average time for which traffic is disrupted is nearly half an hour, with some incidents lasting more than three hours, there is serious work to do there. At the moment TII can only put up advisory signs, as the Senator will probably know, and people's general view of advisory signs is that their advice is optional and that there is no enforcement behind them. You need to put power behind that because if there is a broken-down car in a particular lane, you need to be able to get services to that car very quickly to guarantee the safety of those people and get the traffic flowing again. It is the same when it comes to adverse weather. Then demand management at peak times is important because, otherwise, you effectively just create a bottleneck for people and delay them getting to their destinations.

If something is not done about demand management, it is worthwhile thinking about what the consequences will be. You will see more safety issues so, effectively, you are saying you are prepared to tolerate people being injured or killed. That is not a good thing. If you want to avoid that congestion, the only other option is to build more motorways. It seems to me that building more motorways in that context would represent poor value for money because all you would be doing is trying to build a new motorway to increase capacity at peak times. It would not be needed at any other time of the day. That form of demand management through enforceable, variable speed limits and dynamic management is very important. The dynamic bit is important, of course, because you do not know when it will be required, where it will be required or for how long. That could take you across jurisdictional boundaries, so it is important to understand the role TII has there in the context of being a road traffic organisation. I hope that helps.

Senator Horkan may make one final comment.

I thank Mr. Llewellyn for his contribution. I might come back in later.

I welcome Mr. Llewellyn to the meeting, thank him for being here and wish him well in his new career. We do not have any role in stopping his appointment. There are a number of challenges. Mr. Llewellyn appeared before the UK Parliament's transport committee on 25 November 2020, almost a year ago to this day, and spoke about the issues of the merger of government organisations and road safety.

I will begin with the issue of road safety and the Cork-Limerick motorway, to which Senator Horkan referred. Will that be a priority for TII to develop?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

Is the Senator referring to the N20 and M20?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

It is in the national development plan, as I said to the Senator's colleague. The aim is to have a preferred route identified early next year and the business case will follow thereafter. I could not conclude what that business case will say and whether the board will be prepared to support it. It would not be a priority if it was not in the national development plan.

It is important that TII fulfils the programme for Government commitment and the aims of the national development plan in the development and completion of that project. That is the case for a number of reasons.

The TII's record on road safety is very good. Mr. Llewellyn spoke about a parliamentary committee meeting in his opening remarks. People did not notice how they arrived safely at that meeting. That is the case when people arrive at other people's houses. The M20, the Cork-Limerick motorway, has become a source of many accidents. There have, tragically, been deaths on the road as a consequence of the camber of the road being poor and the road design being less than adequate for a modern traffic network and connectivity. I hope Mr. Llewellyn will prioritise that.

In the context of road safety, how does Mr. Llewellyn see the TII working with the Road Safety Authority in promoting and ensuring we have safety on our roads?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I made those remarks to the committee because, for the majority of us, virtually every time we arrive somewhere, it has been a safe journey. It is easy to forget the amount of effort that lies behind that to ensure road users arrive safely at their destinations. The Road Safety Authority will play a critical role in that regard. It is, effectively, mirroring what I did in my previous executive role, that is, making sure vehicles are safe to drive, people have the right skills to be able to drive properly, and there is enforcement for anybody who wishes to circumvent the rules. We also need a safe road network because road conditions matter. The road speed limit also matters and we need people to comply with those limits. There is quite a strong interaction with the Road Safety Authority. From everything I hear when talking to my colleagues in TII, there is a good working relationship between the two bodies. I am keen for that to continue because there is not one single organisation in Ireland or the UK that has a total impact on safety. It is a collective effort.

We have just passed legislation for speed limit variations on the M50, depending on weather conditions. As Mr. Llewellyn has said, there are situations where speed limits are set. Would he be in favour of a moving speed limit on roads other than the M50?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

The M50 is the starting point. We would need to see whether that initiative will achieve the objectives we think it will, that is, to improve road safety but also to reduce congestion by keeping the traffic moving at peak hours. It is one of the things in our locker we could deploy if we felt it would be beneficial elsewhere. That would have to be judged on a case-by-case basis.

I wish Mr. Llewellyn well. I hope that he will come back before this committee again, with his colleagues from TII, to discuss different projects. I thank him for being here today and wish him every success.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I thank the Senator.

I thank Mr. Llewellyn for giving up his time to come before the committee. The chief executive and other members of TII have been before the committee recently. Mr. Llewellyn has a good CV, qualifications and all the rest of it. This is the first time I have heard of somebody from Wales almost claiming to be from Ireland. I believe it was well put together, in fairness, so full marks in that regard.

I hope I do not repeat some of the points that have already been made. I was trying to maintain an interest in another meeting as this one was ongoing. Such is the reality of the online world in which we live. You think you can do it all and fail miserably on all counts.

Mr. Peter Walsh was before the committee recently and spoke about the difficulties from the point of view of TII. We accept there needs to be a requirement for engagement with communities and all the rest of it on major infrastructural projects. That is fundamental. Mr. Walsh spoke about the difficulties from the point of view of TII. We know there are wider issues. There is an Attorney General review now about the whole planning process. I will ask about Mr. Llewellyn's strategy for the future. What are his plans in that regard? What engagement has the organisation had with the review process that is ongoing?

Mr. Llewellyn spoke about roads. In some cases, there may be bad economics if one is only talking about dealing with peak times. We have all seen the solutions that TII is talking about around the M50, and it would be hoped that could be delivered in other places. That is where technology would kick in to reduce congestion, make things safer and all the rest of it. Does Mr. Llewellyn have plans for that sort of technological focus that could be brought to bear? I accept we must ensure we have a better public transport system that can remove the need for people to be using cars, ourselves included, on a day-to-day basis.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I am nine days into the job so the amount I will know on any of the topics the Deputy has raised is always going to be relatively limited.

That is why I did not start asking Mr. Llewellyn about individual roads, or whatever. I thought I was very good in that sense.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I thank the Deputy for that. I appreciate it. He would have got a very short answer had he asked such questions. When it comes to dynamic traffic management on the M50, as I said, there are a number of issues. One is about road safety. We must make sure road users can get access to assistance if their vehicles break down to protect those vehicles and to move them off the road quickly so traffic will keep moving. When it comes to adverse weather, one needs everybody to stay safe and, therefore, being able to manage the flow at a sensible speed when there is particularly bad weather is important. The technology enables one to do that but only if there is one thing in place, and I will come back to that in a moment.

If peak times are between 7 a.m. and 10 a.m. and 4 p.m. and 7 p.m., a big chunk of the traffic includes people who are being delayed unnecessarily because of the acceleration and braking ahead of them. Keeping that traffic flow moving in a constant way is important. Dynamic traffic management will allow that. However, it only works if people know they must comply through their behaviour. If it is advisory, we know that most people will ignore that and do what they need to because, to them, their route home is the most important. Being able to have some enforcement around that is important.

I want to make it clear, and I know the committee understands this point, that there is no financial benefit to TII from that because whatever enforcement penalties arrive do not come back to TII. This is all about improving the efficient use of that network and road safety, which is what TII is there to do. Whether that model can be applied elsewhere is something to consider at some point. We need the technology in place to prove it works, and if it shows the benefits we think it will, the same approach could be rolled out elsewhere.

It is a proof of concept. As much as we know this has worked in other places, we need to see it will work here and wider plans will then follow. That is welcome. It is a sensible way to approach the matter.

Would Mr. Llewellyn be able to give any comment about the difficulties I mentioned? Has he had any conversations around the planning process and the difficulties TII and others have? I doubt very much he has had any engagement relating to the review of that matter which is ongoing.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I have not had any conversations in that regard. With all capital projects around the world, there is a balance between wanting to deliver them as quickly as possible because of the benefits they bring to society while at the same time ensuring the stakeholders on the route have sufficient engagement to voice their concerns. The key thing is making sure those two concerns are in balance. There is a lot more to be done in the upfront engagement once there is a scheme design to explain to people how projects might work and the benefits they will bring. It is hoped that will reduce the delays in the planning process.

Where does Mr. Llewellyn see his role or what is his plan around due diligence? It is a requirement to deliver on certain projects that are absolutely necessary within the national development plan, even if we are talking about the road network. That needs to be combined with trying to deal with climate change, carbon budgets and all the rest of it.

The difficulty on one level was highlighted to me by the references to TII's plans for the next ten years in regard to roads. I understand €5.1 billion is allocated for this purpose, with €1 billion to be spent in the first half of the decade. The problem with this is it leaves the heavy lifting in the building sense to be done in the second part of the decade, which is when we also will need to do the heavy lifting on reducing emissions and all of that. It is a question of how to wed the two. This difficulty is probably why some people believe that while the NDP may be an impressive-looking document, delivering it might be another matter. It is something of a difficult sell to a couple of different constituencies.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I cannot comment on the politics around the NDP.

I do not expect Mr. Llewellyn to do so.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

There are two issues to consider around transport emissions more generally. The bulk of emissions from transport do not come from the road itself. Clearly, there is embodied carbon in the construction and maintenance of roads. TII is looking at different ways of installing and managing roads to the extent that their carbon footprint is reduced. The bigger issue, however, is what goes on those roads. If what goes on the roads are electric and hydrogen vehicles, then we are in a really good place. That is outside TII's bailiwick other than if there are policy interventions and a drive, if the Deputy will excuse the pun, to get to that position, in which case we will have to look at what infrastructure we have in place to ensure people can charge their vehicles or fill them up with hydrogen.

On that point, what interaction is TII having at this point, or what interaction does it expect to have, around ensuring we have the infrastructure that will be required in terms of EV charging points and whatever else, including a hydrogen strategy, is needed into the future?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I have not had any conversations on that front. At the moment, it is at a fairly basic level of saying to TII what is happening with scope 1 and scope 2 emissions, what we can do as a business to reduce our own emissions and in terms of the construction of the road network, and then the third part, which is how we can help the whole of society to move to a low-carbon way of transport. All countries in the world are facing that at the moment. Ireland is no different from anywhere else.

I thank Mr. Llewellyn for his time. I realise he has just come into the job and some of the questions I put to him were unfair, but that is the nature of the business. It would be very useful if we could have him and other members of TII before the committee on future occasions to talk about not only the short-term issues and some of the local issues on which we all become engaged but also the long-term strategy for delivering the infrastructure we require, combined with dealing with the realities of the climate change mitigations that are necessary.

I thank Mr. Llewellyn for his presentation, which I read before the meeting, and wish him well in the challenges ahead. He knows the priorities of the Government, particularly the shift in spending based on the 2:1 initiative that is now in place. Does that put an undue burden on Mr. Llewellyn and TII in its role in meeting what are the obvious needs from a transport infrastructure point of view in terms of vehicular transport spending on roads versus active travel? That is my first question.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I do not think TII sees that as a pressure. There is definitely an opportunity in it. As I said, TII has an obligation to provide a safe and efficient road transport network. We have to do that under law unless we are told by the Minister to have a derogation for a period. When we are building changes to the roads, there is an opportunity to put cycle paths or greenways alongside them, which is something TII already is doing. Part of the challenge in this regard is that we could end up with a greenway that is very busy because it is being built as part of an ongoing change to a road network. It is important that whatever infrastructure is put in place, there is an awareness of how a greenway is connected up with existing cycle paths and so on to encourage active travel. I know TII is thinking about that because it was a specific question I had.

The other aspect is making sure that when roads are designed, there are very clear views as to what elements will be public transport and which will be personal transport. At the moment, personal transport is based on the internal combustion engine but it will, at some point, be based around electricity or hydrogen fuel. The roads will still be needed. It is about having enough view of what the long term is to make sure we are making decisions now that will make provision for 20, 30 or 40 years. We are very focused on the 2:1 aspect. MetroLink, obviously, will be a big chunk of that, particularly in terms of moving people around the Dublin area.

That is very helpful. Regarding inter-urban motorways, concern has been raised about the design style of some of the access and egress points to and from the main thoroughfares. Mr. Llewellyn may not be familiar with this issue, in which case it may be a takeaway for him. I know of a number of such junctions that I can identify for him. The ones closest to us in Clare are the Tulla Road, Barefield and Crusheen exits. Deputy Lowry will be familiar with another one, on the M7, which I pass every week entering Moneygall. Coming off at that exit is particularly difficult because one is coming down an incline and pulling into a rest area and truck stop at the Barack Obama Plaza. We have had some debate about this in the past. Are there any discussions internally in TII about looking at and addressing those particular junctions? I will not say they are hazardous but they certainly are suboptimal considering the volumes of traffic entering and exiting motorways. Getting off the motorway, in particular, is the major issue.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I have not had conversations on that issue but I will ask the management about it. I go back to the point that TII's remit is to provide a safe and efficient transport network. If something is clearly unsafe and poses a risk to the travelling public, TII will no doubt look at it and will have to prioritise it within the investment budget provided for the development of transport. I have some sympathy with the point the Deputy is raising. Many years ago, I remember driving down a dual carriageway to find a vehicle coming the wrong way around a roundabout and straight towards me. The driver was able to do that because the approach road to the roundabout was straight on rather than to the side and, in effect, he made the wrong decision. It was exceptionally hazardous. I understand the point the Deputy is raising but I do not know the extent to which TII has looked at the particular issues to which he referred.

I thank Mr. Llewellyn and wish him well in his work. Having read his CV, it is clear he is very well suited and qualified for the role. I look forward to an ongoing and active engagement between him, his management and the committee.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I thank the Senator.

I welcome Mr. Llewellyn to the meeting and congratulate and compliment him on his appointment, which comes at a crucial time for TII. His CV is very impressive and he has the knowledge and experience across a range of transport-related disciplines that should allow him to give strong leadership to TII. I wish him well in his role.

He is only nine days into it but I am sure he has been briefed by his staff. He said in his opening statement that "in an ideal world", funding would be available to support all projects that are included in the national development plan. In the briefing he would have had from executives of TII, did they establish what the likely shortfall will be?

In regard to the budget that is available to TII, Mr. Llewellyn placed a lot of emphasis on maintaining existing assets across the country, on both road and Luas.

What is the ratio of spend on capital and maintenance in that area?

I will raise one other issue, which is that many people in Ireland feel very disgruntled, and at times suffer huge inconvenience, when there is an incident on one of our motorways. There is a serious question mark over our response times. If there is any kind of incident on a motorway at present, the tailbacks and delays last many hours. The synchronisation and co-ordination between members of the Garda leaves a lot to be desired at times. I can understand that when there is a major incident and a fatality, but I have seen a couple of cases in recent times where a road has been closed from 12 a.m. until 8 p.m. Even by 8 p.m. members of the Garda still have not got their act together to direct traffic. I ask Mr. Llewellyn to take that up with his officials in TII and ask them what procedures and practices can be put in place to improve our response time to reopening roadways following incidents.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I thank the Deputy for his question. I am halfway through my briefing. The second half of it was due right now but has been postponed. There is lots that I still do not understand.

As I understand it, however, the inherent asset value of the road network that the TII looks after is €32 billion. We would be stupid not to maintain that value because letting it degrade and having to rebuild it would just load a significant amount of capital cost onto the Irish taxpayer at some point in the future. It is very important to me that we maintain what we have in good order. To do that, it is necessary to know a lot about the condition of the asset at all times. That is sometimes tricky, so understanding the condition of a tunnel, embankment or road requires investment, skills to interpret the data and good decision-making. None of those are generally what I would term sexy projects; they are basic things that have to be done. They are worthwhile doing because of the inherent value of the asset we have in Ireland. TII will continue to do that.

I do not know the split between maintenance and enhancement, which I think is the question the Deputy asked, because I have not yet been briefed on that, but no doubt it will become clearer when we publish our annual business plan. I think that is going before the board next month.

I will take up the Deputy's point on response times to delays and congestion on roads with management. The official part of the statutory duty of TII refers to that. It is about making sure those roads are operated efficiently and that people can use them efficiently. If people are experiencing delays for very long periods, they will probably feel anything other than that. If the obligation does not sit with TII, that will be part of the stakeholder engagement we will need to go on.

I confirm that I am in my office in Leinster House. I congratulate Mr. Llewellyn on his appointment. He has a very impressive CV to hand. I noted that his surname is Welsh. Is he any relation to Carl Llewellyn, the jockey?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

No. There used to be a rugby player called Gareth Llewellyn, who was about six feet taller than me. I am not related to him either.

That is all right.

Was Deputy Carey looking for a tip for today?

No. I could have done with one.

He probably lost a lot of money. That is what happened to him.

Does that conclude Deputy Carey's questioning?

No. I have a few little ones. Mr. Llewellyn will probably not have this information to hand, but he might be able to help me out. A long-standing project is being worked on by Clare County Council and the TII. It involves a roundabout off the N85 on the approach to Ennis and Clarecastle. It also has linkage to the N67 and the Kilrush road. It is a notorious and very busy roundabout. It is the busiest roundabout in County Clare and is very dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists. Work has nearly been completed on a greenway that runs along the banks of the River Fergus past the monument at Clareabbey. It is a very good project that will encourage more pedestrian traffic and cyclists in the area. Students travelling from Clarecastle to Ennis have to traverse this roundabout on a daily basis. They are taking their lives in their hands by doing so. This issue has been ongoing for many years. Ideally, it should have been resolved at the design stage of the Ennis bypass and N85 link road. I would like Mr. Llewellyn to raise this matter with the TII and have it brought to a conclusion. A number of submissions have been made by Clare County Council, which has identified a preferred option to rectify the situation. I ask Mr. Llewellyn, as chairperson designate, to take this issue up and bring it to a conclusion.

The other long-standing issue is that of Blake's Corner in a place called Ennistimon in north Clare. Again, it is a very busy junction. An inner relief road on the N67-N85 is proposed, which means a new bridge and new inner relief road will be built in Ennistimon. Two American tourists recently crashed at Blake's Corner. Luckily, they escaped without being hurt, but it demonstrates the problems that are there, including massive traffic congestion throughout the summer because people are going back to attractive tourist resorts, such as Liscannor, Lahinch and, in north Clare, Doolin and the Cliffs of Moher. It is a very busy junction. I would like Mr. Llewellyn to provide an update on that scheme too. I understand that an oral hearing was heard last June at An Bord Pleanála and the inspector has to come back with a report. It is important that that project is driven on, we see it realised and the congestion issues that have been experienced are dealt with.

Deputy Lowry touched on this final issue. Over the past six weeks, there have been a number of road traffic incidents and, sadly, one fatality, on the N18 road that runs from Ennis to Limerick, in particular the section from Bunratty into Limerick. All these accidents involved heavy goods vehicles and massive delays were caused as a result. A person passed away, which is obviously tragic for that individual and his or her family. The delay in trying to get the road reopened, people not knowing what is happening and trying to communicate that to commuters are areas that TII will have to improve upon. Given that there have been a number of these incidents on the N18, has Mr. Llewellyn concerns about this section of road? Why are so many of these accidents happening? Has the TII given any consideration to putting in some remedy to this? I get that Mr. Llewellyn will not be familiar with these projects, but I will be happy if he would come back to me in writing regarding them.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I thank the Deputy for the question. As he rightly pointed out, I cannot answer on the detail of what he just said.

As a more general point, the TII works very closely with local authorities because they are the roads authorities for the national, regional and local roads within their boundaries. TII is not a roads authority, which may be something that we will need to address at some point in the future. As I understand it, the relationship between TII and the local authorities is pretty good because there is a network of 11 local authority national roads offices throughout the country, which work remarkably well. That probably does not answer the Deputy's specific questions, but I am sure somebody from TII is watching this and taking notes on letters that will need to be written in response to Deputies, etc.

I will ensure that somebody from TII comes back to the Deputy with the detail. I think I have already addressed the point about what we can do when something happens to reduce the delays. Whether that is through dynamic traffic management or through actions by the Garda, I am not entirely sure, but I will pick it up with TII.

I have been in and out of the meeting with another matter, so apologies if I am going over old ground. I wish Mr. Llewellyn well in his new role. I am interested in his perspective on the role of TII. Does he think the role of roads, as we have understood them for so long in terms of carrying cars, lorries and buses, is changing, in light of the sustainable future with climate targets, a transition to increasing use of public transport, an electric car fleet and increasing the use of electrified or alternative fuels for HGVs, but particularly given the significant move towards active travel, including cycling and walking? What does Mr. Llewellyn see as TII's role being in delivering on that type of change? Does he think the organisation is prepared and has an important role in relation to that? How will it ready itself for that? Will it require, for example, different skill sets, mindsets and changes in approach to align an important organisation such as TII? In his opening statement, Mr. Llewellyn mentioned that it is about delivering. I am conscious that TII has taken on a new role in the delivery of greenways, which I think aligns very well with the piece on active travel. How is the organisation going to deliver roads that serve a purpose that is more closely aligned to the climate obligations and the changes in road user, the changes in road space and the types of vehicles that are on roads? I hope that is a clear question and Mr. Llewellyn has a sense of what I am asking.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I thank the Deputy for the question. One thing we know about the future is that it will be different from where we are at the moment. Preparing for that sometimes needs different structures, skills and thinking. The most important statement is that there is always a view that roads are bad in relation to climate change, but they are not really. It is what is on the roads that matters, because that is where most - not all - of the emissions come from. At some point in the future, we will still need roads. We will need them for electric vehicles and hybrid vehicles. A new hydrogen HGV is being launched by a company called Tevva. These vehicles are coming, and that it is a good thing, except from a congestion perspective. Obviously, we still need to deal with congestion and the impact it has on the economy.

TII still has an important role in ensuring that the road network, in particular, supports the NDP. Looking at the priorities, transport supports virtually all of them. Whether it is strengthening rural communities, regional accessibility or sustainable mobility, transport is part of all of those. Making sure that at any one point in time, one designs infrastructure to achieve the future outcomes as well as to tackle today's problems will be a factor for TII, without a doubt.

I think I mentioned in one of my previous answers that even today, TII has a preference that when it is planning new infrastructure, a greenway is part of it already. A big challenge there is making sure that whatever greenway is introduced as part of a change to the road network is linked up with existing greenways. There is no point in it being isolated from everything else. It needs that joined-up approach, as part of the national cycle network, etc. That is really important. When planning new infrastructure, TII looks at what proportion of that infrastructure should be for personal vehicles and what should be for public transport. Again, that is part of the overall planning process that TII will go through.

I cannot say that the organisation will not need new skills, because it probably will, because the future will be different. It is part of the board's role in evaluating the strategy or the organisation, to take a view about whether the organisation is set up for success. That is part of my role.

Does Mr. Llewellyn envisage an expanded role for the organisation in terms of active travel, or is it more of a case of working with organisations, such as the NTA and others, in a co-ordinated way to deliver on those projects? What is the most efficient way to deliver?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I am very clear that TII has a statutory duty to deliver a safe and efficient road network. It must deliver on that. Over and above that, it has to deliver the Government's objectives, which are set out in the NDP. The organisation works within a framework. It does not determine behind closed doors what happens; it takes its lead from the Department of Transport and the NTA. That is the framework within which it works.

I have not come with a mindset that this organisation needs to be 15 times bigger in ten years' time. MetroLink is going to be one of the biggest challenges that Ireland, more generally, will face, and TII, specifically, will face. We need to get that right. The organisation does need to skill itself up quickly to be able to deliver MetroLink within a sensible time period and to ensure that when it goes through the implementation, there are not hold-ups and the costs do not escalate. The best way of doing that is to get people in TII's business and experts who know what they are doing on the ground now - not in two years' time. That will give us confidence that when the preferred route goes out, all the contracts are linked together.

In respect of the planning process, I presume it is not entirely within the gift of TII outside of funding. Obviously, Mr. Llewellyn has international experience and can make comparisons. From initial discussions with colleagues in TII, does he believe that our planning system is fit for purpose? What types of changes does he think might be needed to ensure that major transport projects like MetroLink can proceed efficiently?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

It is a difficult question to answer. I have worked in most parts of the world. I have worked in some parts of the world where, quite frankly, the planning process came after the project had been delivered. That is certainly not good practice. As I said earlier, it is about achieving the optimum balance between making sure that the projects are delivered in a sensible timescale so that the benefits, more broadly, are delivered when one needs them, and at the same time, making sure that those people who are impacted on the route have a sufficient voice through that process. If any one of those two are out of kilter, one will end up with problems. It is about achieving that optimum balance. Part of the role for TII is working with other organisations to see how we can improve the overall process to achieve objectives from both parties' perspectives.

On a separate topic, I read a piece last week in one of the newspapers on funding for TII that has been impacted by something in the order of €100 million this year because of lower income in a complicated way, but related to traffic volumes on toll roads. Does Mr. Llewellyn have a concern in relation to that? Does that affect, in a real way, TII's bottom line? Is the organisation compensated in an way in relation to it? Does Mr. Llewellyn have a comment on the business model that operates in that way? Obviously, there has been criticism from some quarters of the public private partnership, PPP, models. We are moving into a period where we will see big investment in projects. I presume consideration will be given to the type of model is used to deliver them. Perhaps Mr. Llewellyn could comment on the funding position of TII and the impact of Covid.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, there is no doubt that Covid has had an impact on income. It was reported in last year's annual report. We are still in the process of tackling this pandemic, and restrictions are coming in again, in my country as well as in Ireland.

It is likely to have an impact on income into 2022. We are very fortunate that, like his predecessor, the Minister is very supportive of what TII does and that he wants to see TII there for the long term. That is right because transport is essential to all the principles that sit within the NDP. I do not have a particular concern there. Part of my oversight will be to ensure the organisation is operating as efficiently as possible so that if it needs funding from Government it is not unreasonable. We are trying to minimise our recourse to public funds as far as possible.

Regarding other projects, it is too early to tell.

I thank Mr. Llewellyn and wish him well in his new role.

I confirm that I am in Leinster House. I join previous speakers in welcoming Mr. Llewellyn. I have read his opening statement. I wish him the very best. What is required of us today is a bit of a rubber-stamping exercise. We endorse him as chair designate of TII.

The Shannon tunnel, the fantastic under-river link between Clare and Limerick, was built about 15 years ago. Has it been utilised enough in taking HGV traffic off the orbital route network in the southern part of County Clare and Limerick city? Mr. Llewellyn may not have an answer to my second question but perhaps he or some of his colleagues who are following this meeting might come back to me on it. Two figures circulating in the ether relating to the Shannon tunnel are at great variance. If phase 2 of the Limerick northern distributor road is constructed, the figure being put forward by the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, would suggest a significant financial hit to the Shannon tunnel and yet the figure suggested by local authorities in the mid-west is far less. I would appreciate if TII, not today but some day, could calculate its estimate of the penalty if phase 2 were developed. What financial hit would the Shannon tunnel suffer?

My next question relates to TII and the naming of infrastructure. Prior to being elected to the Dáil, I was a member of Clare County Council. Along with other councillors, I suggested naming roundabouts and flyover bridges after key figures, one of them being a lady from Cratloe in County Clare who died on hunger strike during the War of Independence. She was the only member of Cumann na mBan to suffer that fate. The country has many monuments and other memorials to men from that period but we have fewer for women. This proposal had cross-party agreement but it fizzled out to nothing. Does TII have a policy on that? If it does not, I believe it needs to have one because in some places there is a desire to have bridges and other pieces of infrastructure named rather than having a series of anonymous numbers and letters behind them.

Does TII have a database of all lands that are part of future road plans? It is important to have a database available. Many good, layered GIS mapping systems are available. It has become a constant theme in County Clare and elsewhere where future transport initiatives are planned in TII offices and indeed in the local authority there may well be maps giving details of future plans but many landowners may not be privy to those. There is not a one-stop shop to get that information. People need to know what kind of infrastructure is intended in their locality and how that interfaces with their landholdings.

For a long time, I have been asking Clare County Council to salt and grit the roads leading to Clonmoney National School. I am glad that is now in the winter maintenance programme. TII has a major competency in salting and gritting. Some of its main salt barns on the Clare to Galway motorway are located just outside Ennis. At times, when we get a hard freeze, the resources of TII could be made available beyond the national road network. I believe it needs to play a role in making salt and grit resources available to local authorities.

I know I am throwing out several questions. I do not expect Mr. Llewellyn to have all the answers today. There was a fabulous project in County Clare last year, but it could not proceed even though there was funding available. It involved a series of looped walks, but it needed sanction from TII to progress. That has become a recurring theme. Many projects that councils heretofore would have led, now require the higher sanction of TII. Perhaps in his tenure, Mr. Llewellyn might be able to address this matter. TII should have a unit that engages with groups and local authorities to ensure that these kinds of projects receive the rubber-stamp and seal of approval so that they can progress.

I wish Mr. Llewellyn very well in the future. He may be able to respond to some of those issues in a general sense now and can come back to me with some of the specifics at a later date.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I will do my best to answer some of those questions. I will not be able to answer them all. I have not been briefed on the issues relating to the Shannon tunnel that the Deputy flagged. That may be coming. I will ask somebody within TII to address that issue.

I am neutral on the naming of infrastructure. However, TII is a non-political organisation and sometimes names can engender different feelings, which is not something that TII should be exposed to. As I understand it, there is no policy at the moment. Clearly, the board will need to look at that at some point in the future. Different countries around the world take different views on it. There are plenty of names in the US, whereas in the UK there is probably not a single name anywhere - other than those put up by graffiti.

TII is carrying out considerable work on technology on the mapping of lands to help it manage the network better and help it understand the impact of land use on roads and also to ensure that as much information as possible is accessible in the planning process. I do not know about the status of that nor its availability. One of the challenges in releasing information about future road networks is that it runs the risk of infrastructure being put in place that subsequently causes a problem in respect of a particular route. We need to think about that very carefully.

The Deputy made a very interesting point about working with local authorities. As I mentioned earlier, the local authorities are the roads authority for national, regional and local roads within their boundaries. It has come as a bit of a surprise to me that TII is not a roads authority. It may be a matter we need to address in the future. That said, the relationship with local authorities seems to work rather well through the 11 national roads offices we have throughout the country. If there is any sense that that is not working, clearly we would be interested in hearing those experiences so that TII can make the process work better.

The Deputy had many questions and I am not sure if I answered them all. He should feel free to come back to me with any specific issues if he wishes.

I again thank Mr. Llewellyn. I mentioned local authorities. Too often, local authorities and TII seem to exist quite separately. However, TII will occasionally send a memo to a local authority asking its road design office to progress a project. The road design office in County Clare is staffed by two or three people. It is over-resourced for what it needs be able to achieve. At times, we need a better alignment between the hierarchy in TII and what is happening at county level. Mr. Llewellyn may be able to champion that. I would appreciate if some of his colleagues in-house might be able to come back to me, perhaps by email, on some of those matters in the coming days.

I wish Mr. Llewellyn the best of luck with TII. We will not wish Wales as much luck with the Six Nations but we all love watching the Welsh team perform.

Mr. Llewellyn has a very impressive CV. I think he will bring added value. He spoke about himself and stated that the three key components are aligning with sustainable transport, the challenge and added value.

How familiar is Mr. Llewellyn with Ireland and with our road, rail and bus networks? Has he had an opportunity to come to Ireland over the years?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

Yes, I have been to Ireland on numerous occasions. I have to say, to be totally honest, it is generally limited to the Dublin area but enough to go on the Luas system, the bus network and the DART. Covid permitting, I am planning to be over in the next two weeks again to improve my understanding of the whole system. I only have more to learn.

The two things I would ask Mr. Llewellyn to do are as follows. I am a Deputy for Limerick city and my colleagues have already made reference to the N20-M20 project. Mr. Llewellyn is probably aware there are no motorways or dual carriageways between Cork and Limerick as there are between Cork and Dublin, Limerick and Dublin, Limerick and Galway and Galway and Dublin. Limerick and Cork are the two largest cities outside of Dublin but they are not linked by motorway. The distance is roughly 90 km and there is no hard shoulder on 42% of it. I would encourage Mr. Llewellyn to read The Irish Times article, which we might send on to him, which suggests that 60 people have been killed on that route in the past 25 years and it is four times more likely to have fatalities than the average road in Ireland. There are a huge number of access points along the route, with something like 625 access points. I welcome that Mr. Llewellyn has already made reference to the fact it is continuing to go through a process through TII. I welcome that he sees a role for motorways and roads in addition to rail and other forms of transport, as there will always be need for that.

If Mr. Llewellyn gets the opportunity to come to Ireland, I ask him to drive the route and see at first hand what it entails. From Limerick city, there is dual carriageway for about 10 km and that is already motorway. The road then goes into Patrickswell as far as Croom and there it is a normal national road with a hard shoulder. From Croom to Charleville, the road has no hard shoulder for roughly 12 to 15 km. From Charleville to Buttevant, it is an ordinary road with a hard shoulder, although there is a difficulty with Buttevant as there is a quarry there and it needs a major bypass. The road then continues on to Mallow and then to Cork. I am a great believer in seeing it in person rather than just in the abstract. I would encourage Mr. Llewellyn to drive it when he is in Ireland next. I assume he will be looking to do that as part of his role.

It is the biggest single project in Ireland. It is something I passionately believe in given the fatalities as well as the issue of connecting the two cities. Does Mr. Llewellyn think he will get the opportunity to drive the route?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

Throughout my career, probably the most interesting part has been the site visits, where we learn a huge amount. It also means that when we get back to the boardroom, our decisions are more based in reality than they are when they are just on paper. The Chairman can take it from me that I will be driving and taking public transport in Ireland as part of my role.

As I mentioned, we know there are serious safety concerns on that route. It is in the NDP and the preferred route will hopefully be available in the early part of next year. There is probably a more general principle here. TII is a delivery agency and the decisions about the investment should be for the Department of Transport and for the National Transport Authority. While TII can make proposals as to what could be done, and safety is a particular issue, it has to work closely with those two organisations to make sure the right infrastructure is developed within that funding envelope. Sometimes it is easy for TII to take a bit of grief with regard to roads that have not been changed but, quite often, those decisions are not for TII to take.

Mr. Llewellyn is probably aware that, along that route, there is need for a motorway and bypasses of towns like Charleville and Buttevant in particular, which are major bottlenecks. However, it is a good economic corridor. We are trying to get an Atlantic corridor running from Cork to Limerick to Galway and beyond as a counter-pole to Dublin.

Mr. Llewellyn made an interesting point on the whole area around electric vehicles and he might expand on that. When roads are being built, it is what is on the roads at that time that will determine the emissions. Obviously, fossil fuel emissions from cars are very heavy on carbon whereas that is not the case for electric cars. That is one question. What would be involved? We are looking to have 1 million electric vehicles in Ireland by 2030, which is nine years away. From Mr. Llewellyn's experience, what is required to meet that target?

Second, Mr. Llewellyn made reference to TII looking at more environmentally-friendly ways of building the roads. When the roads are being built, they bring risks in terms of carbon. Will Mr. Llewellyn expand on that? They are two sides of the same coin in one sense. We want to get to a point where roads are not seen as a total enemy of the environment. We need to evolve over time to electric cars and look at ways of using components that are not as carbon emitting as other areas. Mr. Llewellyn might elaborate on both of those points.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I do not think it will be in huge detail but these are some of the things I have learned over the years. Moving from the internal combustion engine to electric vehicles is hugely important as part of our journey to net zero but it does require the electricity system to be decarbonised as well, of course, because otherwise we are just shifting the emissions somewhere else.

One of the feelings, particularly in the UK, is that for any lengthy journey, people are nervous around electric vehicles because of the range and an innate knowledge about where they may recharge their vehicle and whether the charging process is going to take too long. All of those issues are in the hands of the manufacturers, such as battery technology and range extent. People need to know they can get from where they are to their destination without a recharge and if they do need a recharge, that the recharge is rather quick. I am not sure there is a huge amount that TII could do or should do. Clearly, at the point at which we have significant numbers of electric vehicles, making sure that those recharging stations are in the right place to ensure smooth travel is hugely important. The issues will be more about range and battery technology than it will be about charging stations necessarily.

Another issue is whether the next development is around hydrogen fuel cells and, if hydrogen fuel cells do take over from electric vehicles, whether existing fuel stations can be converted into hydrogen providing stations. If that is the case, the way in which we drive will not be too dissimilar from where we are today. All of those are driven more by policy than they will be by TII, although TII will have to respond to any policy change and any change in purchasing practice.

When it comes to construction more generally, there is a lot of work going on in various sectors around decarbonising construction. I was fortunate to work for the chief executive of the organisation that built the London Olympic Games infrastructure and a huge amount of work was done there on decarbonising the construction process. It is something TII is looking at and the more work we can do in that space, the more we will reduce our own emissions with regard to construction and the management and maintenance of the infrastructure we have.

Will we get to a point where we have significant decarbonisation of the materials going into the construction of roads?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I could not put a timescale on it but, ultimately, we want to be net zero by 2050 so there is a timescale that is almost inherent in all of the work we do to make sure that TII's activities are as close to zero as possible by that time. It will require some interesting innovations. It will require us to look around the world for examples of where we can adopt new technology and new materials to construct and maintain roads. All I can say is that TII is up for that challenge, and that is the most important thing.

Mr. Llewellyn made reference earlier to the fact that, around cities and big urban areas, additional motorways are not the answer to demand.

Will he expand on that? What does he think is the solution to dealing with traffic?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

That comment was made with regard to the consequences of not implementing dynamic traffic management on the M50. If you do not do that, you must either accept that people are going to be consistently delayed - and delayed even further in future because of the potential growth in car numbers - or you must build more roads. That is the only other option. If you do that, it seems you will only be building roads to accommodate the congestion at peak times. That does not feel like a good investment. Dynamic traffic management will help with that. It will avert any future expansion of the motorway to tackle that particular issue. That was the comment I was making.

Where does Mr. Llewellyn sit on the idea of linking cities by way of motorways? What is his view on that? Is it important in achieving synergies and tying cities together? What is his position from his own experience?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

It is important for social mobility that connectivity be looked at. I am agnostic as to whether this connectivity is achieved by means of road, rail or light rail. It is important to recognise something. I have been fortunate in my time. I actually live in the city so I can pretty much walk or cycle anywhere I want to go. I do not actually need the car. I live ten minutes from the main railway station. However, prior to living here, I lived in the country. If you wanted to get a pint of milk, it was a 40-minute round trip. There was only one bus a week. I see the issues affecting rural transport and city transport. There is a big difference between the two. Again, within the context of TII's statutory responsibilities, there is not a massive amount that we can do but I am trying to understand the broader picture as to where the future of transport may be. The TII can talk with the Department of Transport and the NTA about that.

What does Mr. Llewellyn see as the future of transport?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

We are all going to need it. I do not think we are likely to be on the Enterprise from "Star Trek", being zapped from one part of the world to another, or at least not in my lifetime. It is about striking a balance between the bulk transport of people through public transport, something which MetroLink will deliver, and making sure that people can access the road network safely with any congestion kept to a minimum. We also need to look at the future of roads to see whether they can enhance public transport and active travel in a way they may not have in the past.

In saying that, is Mr. Llewellyn referring to greenways alongside roads and motorways? There would obviously still be buses on major routes. Where does he see that enhancement coming?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I cannot give the Chairman a geographical spot but, clearly, the impact of buses fuelled by hydrogen or electricity on the climate is very low. The benefit of public transport is quite high but those buses still need infrastructure to run on. TII will play an important role in facilitating that change. The point I made regarding modal shift was that the shift will probably be a policy decision. TII plays an important role in making sure that the infrastructure is in place and ready for a shift in modes.

That was very informative. I look forward to Mr. Llewellyn coming back before the committee with TII. We will get an update on how he views the existing N20 route from Cork to Limerick. He is always welcome to call in if he is in Limerick. We will now move to a second round of questions from members. I call on Senator Horkan, who has five minutes.

I thank Mr. Llewellyn again. Like everybody else, I have been hearing almost all of his contributions. I have had to dip in and out slightly, but I have been here for almost all of it.

I will touch on Mr. Llewellyn's background. He will be chairman of TII shortly. He is now the chair designate. He is also on the boards of Harwich Haven Authority and Sage Housing. Does he have a lot of other things going on? Does he feel he will have enough time for TII? I am conscious that sometimes busy individuals are the best people to ask to do things because they are very good at managing their time, but Mr. Llewellyn has quite a number of irons in the fire. Is that an unfair comment?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

It is not unfair at all. I am involved with a range of organisations. My term at Harwich Haven Authority comes to an end at the end of this month. I will have completed my second three-year term and, by the rules of that organisation, I must step down. That will release a little bit of time. I believe I will have more than enough time to get involved in TII. As the Senator will know, whenever you take on a new role, it is more onerous in the first few months as you try to get up to speed with what the organisation is capable of, what its priorities are and so on. As the Chairman identified, I will also have to get up to speed with the geography of the country in this case. It will be onerous in the first few months but, after that, I believe it will be more than manageable.

I know we are doing things more remotely at the moment than we might otherwise have done but how much time does Mr. Llewellyn expect to spend on TII on a weekly or monthly basis? Does he see himself working three or four days a month or more? Perhaps he will be working an hour a day here and there. We know and appreciate that it is not a full-time position, but how much time does Mr. Llewellyn envisage spending on it in the coming months?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

When taking on a non-executive role, the amount of time you put in is always far more than originally specified. That is just the way it is. In part, that is down to how a non-executive normally operates. You want to make the biggest contribution you can. The original expectation was a day a week. I have spent the past three days on TII, so that is three weeks in one go. It will, of course, vary. Sometimes I will be working remotely and sometimes in person. At the moment, I am frustrated that the Covid restrictions on both sides will constrain my ability to get out on-site and do the travelling the Chairman referred to, which is a core part of learning the business early on. If we can get out of the pandemic quickly, I will be spending more time over there learning about the business.

I have been chairing school boards for many years, and I know that there is a learning curve before you get more familiar with all of these things. I hope Mr. Llewellyn will get to look at our network sooner rather than later, while remaining compliant with Covid restrictions.

TII's predecessor, the National Roads Authority, which merged with the Railway Procurement Agency to become TII, completed the inter-urban motorway project from Dublin to the cities of Waterford, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Belfast very effectively up until 2010. Road safety has improved greatly. Those roads are far safer than the roads we are talking about, that is, the N20 and other roads on which people are making unsafe passes because they get stuck behind a heavy goods vehicle, tractor or milk tanker and get frustrated. They have nowhere to pass so they take risks they do not have to take on motorways. Mr. Llewellyn's background in road safety is very important. His background in sustainability and leadership is a very interesting part of his CV. Even though he does not overly labour the point, that experience will be very useful in the future.

Mr. Llewellyn has said that the more planning you do in advance and the earlier you do it, the less likely you are to have problems in the end. Are there any other points he would like to make with regard to working closely to minimise delays? MetroLink has been an aspiration for a long time. Is there anything else TII can do in that regard? Mr. Llewellyn referenced the legislation required to make the dynamic traffic management measures obligatory rather than advisory. We took that on board when we visited the operations centre. We had a very useful meeting there. Does he have any other asks of us, as legislators? Is there anything we can do to speed up the job he is trying to do in delivering for the people of Ireland?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

On that last point, I have a list of requests TII has made to the Department of Transport. I have not been through it in detail because I only received it yesterday. It would be a bit unfair to brief the committee on it.

In the fullness of time, it would be useful for Mr. Llewellyn to do so. If, in facing challenges, he feels things need to be speeded up or that a little bit of pressure needs to be put on, Mr. Llewellyn should contact the Chairman or all of us and let us know what we need to do to help.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

To go back to the Senator's comment regarding MetroLink, I have made the point that it is really important to have people in the business very early on in the design stage so that you get all of the interfaces. There are normally interfaces where contractors will play off one another. That is where delays, arguments and cost increases arise. The other thing is that there are, of course, metros around the world. I have been on many of them. It is important that TII makes contact with the organisations behind them to understand the processes they went through, what they learned, what they would do better next time and what would they not do in order that practice from all around the world can be considered before finishing the design.

To be fair to TII, it is doing that. It is talking to its equivalent organisation in Australia, because there is a transit system in Melbourne and elsewhere. Gathering that information from around the world will help to define what TII wants to do. I think it is in that mode, but the important aspect is ensuring that the right people are in place to interpret all the data being gathered.

I thank Mr. Llewellyn. On road safety, in respect of the average speed concept, I once had to drive from Bristol to Cardiff and Swansea, and there are average speed roads in the UK where there are signs notifying people get that if they get from one place to another too quickly, the authorities will know they have been speeding somewhere along the route. I do not believe we have a similar system in Ireland. Is there scope here for something like that? Do those systems work, do they have benefits and could we use them on some of our motorways? We do not need or want speed traps and speed vans everywhere, but if drivers are getting from A to B in less than two or three hours or whatever, would there be a case for using this system? I know it is possible to circumvent that kind of system by stopping at various places along the way, but these mechanisms exist in other countries. Is there scope to use one of those systems here and do they provide benefits?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I do not recognise the specific instance of which the Senator spoke. To my knowledge, there is nothing in the UK where a system will know whether people have got from A to B too quickly. Having driven in France a lot, such a system does exist there. If people move from one toll booth to another and arrive there outside of what is expected within normal speed limits, then the gendarmerie will be waiting for those drivers. That system operates in France.

Over here, we have two issues in this regard. We have information which tells people how long it should take to get from one junction to another, particularly for important junctions. That information just provides a guide regarding there being no congestion and that traffic is heading in the right direction. In certain parts of the country, there are variable speed limits to manage the flow of traffic. Speed cameras are positioned along those stretches of road and drivers will get a fine if they breach the area speed limit. That is the function of that system. In addition, there are also variable speed limits relating to construction activity. They tend to be average speed cameras over a longer distance. Again, in that case, if a driver's average speed from the start to the end of such a section of road is greater than would normally be expected, which would normally be about 50 mph, or probably 80 km/h, then those drivers would be fined. It is variable, depending on the use of those particular aspects.

Based on Mr. Llewellyn’s background in safety, how effective are those systems?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

Yes, they are, without a doubt. The fact that people know they are going to get a fairly hefty financial penalty for breaching speed limits does condition their behaviour when driving. Everybody can be seen slowing down when a sign specifies 60 mph because people know that there are cameras ahead.

Generally, our road safety figures, in the context of fatalities, are greatly down on what they used to be and our motorway network is probably the safest part of our overall road network. Every life saved and every injury prevented, however, is a positive and therefore I ask Mr. Llewellyn to encourage that aspect.

Transdev Ireland operates the Luas on behalf of TII, which absorbed the Railway Procurement Agency. Does TII have much interaction with Transdev to address antisocial behaviour on Luas carriages? It is relatively limited, but it attracts much attention when it happens and tends to frighten people. When we are asking people to make a modal shift to public transport, we want it to be safe. In the context of Mr. Llewellyn’s role, what scope is there for him to ensure that antisocial behaviour on the trains can be eliminated or at least reduced as much as possible?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I only know a little about this aspect. I saw some information at the last board meeting which was just examining the patterns of antisocial behaviour, such as where they occurred and at what time, etc. Discussions are ongoing between TII and Transdev concerning what can be done in that space. From memory, it seemed that there was a bit of a spike when fares were reintroduced at the end of certain Covid-19 restrictions last year. That was when antisocial behaviour started to go up. Equally, from memory, that has now started to decrease again. From what I understand, however, discussions are ongoing in this regard.

I was not aware that fares had been got rid of last year, but perhaps people felt that the levels of compliance enforcement were not being adhered to in the same way. That may have been the case. The compliance enforcement levels may have gone back up since and more inspectors are back on the carriages.

I am conscious of time, so I thank Mr. Llewellyn again for putting his name forward for this post. I wish him the very best of luck in his new role. I ask him to please keep in touch with the committee and to let us know what we can do to help to deliver a decent public transport structure, in respect of the Luas and MetroLink, and also a safe national roads network. I thank Mr. Llewellyn for his participation.

I call Senator Buttimer.

I am happy enough. Mr. Llewellyn has given a good and insightful presentation. This question-and-answer session has been equally helpful. As I said, I wish him well in his new position. Several others have mentioned the importance of the M20. From the speech given by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Michael McGrath, in the Seanad last night and Mr. Llewellyn’s remarks today, I note that everything we do now is being couched in the context of sustainability from the perspective of climate action. Equally, though, there is a need for connectivity. I invite Mr. Llewellyn to visit Cork and Limerick, and to drive that motorway with the Chair and me in order that he can see first-hand, if he has not already done so, the absolute importance of connectivity and road safety.

We will work with Mr. Llewellyn, and I will work with him personally, to deliver in tangible ways the key infrastructural projects. I refer to what is involved to enable this modal shift away from the use of cars, in many cases. However, we still require the M20 motorway be built, and I make no apologies for being an advocate for that project. I am not being parochial or trying to be clientelist, but this project is important in the context of the NDP and the economic development of regions outside Dublin. Mr. Llewellyn has my full support. I wish him well, and I hope we will see delivery in this area. I keep saying that the delivery of projects such as BusConnects and light rail for Cork and other areas will signify the success of Mr. Llewellyn's tenure as the chair of TII and of the organisation itself. I wish him every success.

I thank the Senator. I call Deputy Ó Murchú.

I will not be asking any questions either. I thank Mr. Llewellyn for his time and his interaction with us. In fairness, regarding what he said about TII having several requests for the Department of Transport and the Minister to fulfil, we should also probably put our requests in following our previous meeting with TII. I refer to issues with planning and similar aspects. We should probably get those aspects set out in some kind of written form for them. We could then have a further engagement regarding many of the issues we discussed today.

Briefly, regarding best practice in this regard around the world, Mr. Llewellyn went into some of that information. I wonder what he might see as being an applicable system that we could use from the perspective of where we go in the future with our transport system. I would be interested to hear if he is aware of anything like that, but perhaps he does not want to be as definitive as that just yet. In fairness, we could talk about it at a later stage if Mr. Llewellyn cannot go into it now.

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

I do not think a particular system can be lifted and shifted and put into place in respect to MetroLink. All these systems are slightly different. There are many comparisons over here to the Irish context, such as with Crossrail, for example, but that system is also very different. This is a matter of understanding those differences, picking up on the aspects that are likely to be similar and then copying those. There is a requirement, therefore, to look more broadly at metro systems that work and also those that work less well to try to ensure we synthesise the best parts of those examples.

Okay. Go raibh maith agat.

How long is Mr. Llewellyn's term as chair of TII?

Mr. Gareth Llewellyn

From what I understand, it is five years.

Mr. Llewellyn is going to be in the cockpit for what will be an interesting time of development in Ireland. We wish him well. Once he has settled into the role, we will hope to have him back with us in the months to come for some updates. As I said, I hope he enjoys his drive from Limerick to Cork. I think he will find it insightful, informative and-----

He should go from Cork to Limerick, and then the Chair can give him tea.

He can go down from Limerick to Cork, and then he can come back to Limerick, stay overnight and enjoy visiting the area. Mr. Llewellyn will find that it is one of the last key major infrastructure projects outstanding. It is about connectivity, safety, to a great degree, and reducing journey times. We look forward to Mr. Llewellyn coming back to the committee. We wish him well, and we will be interacting with him and his colleagues in TII on an ongoing basis because this committee deals with transport and communications issues.

I thank Mr. Llewellyn for attending. I wish him a happy Christmas and I wish him well in his new role. A letter and the transcript of this meeting will issue to the Minister notifying him that the committee has met with Mr. Llewellyn.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.30 p.m. 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 8 December 2021.
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