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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Feb 2022

Management of Irish Airspace: Irish Aviation Authority

As we have a quorum, we are in public session. Apologies have been received from Senators Jerry Buttimer and Gerard Craughwell. We extend our sympathies to Senator Buttimer, whose father Jerry Buttimer Snr. sadly passed away this morning and to the extended family.

The purpose of this meeting is to discuss the potential impact of the planned naval exercises off the coast of Ireland on aviation and the role of the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, in the management of Irish airspace. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the following representatives of the IAA: Mr. Peter Kearney, chief executive; and Mr. Peter Kavanagh, general manager, Shannon en-route and aeronautical information services. I thank them for agreeing to attend the meeting at such short notice.

All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity outside the Houses either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or engage in speech that might be damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identified person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. There are some limitations to parliamentary privilege for witnesses attending remotely from outside the Leinster House campus and as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present. Witnesses participating from a jurisdiction outside the State are advised that they should also be mindful of their domestic law and how it may apply to the evidence they give.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. Reluctantly, I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member participating via MS Teams to affirm that he or she is within the grounds of the Leinster House complex prior to making his or her contribution.

I now call on Mr. Kearney to make his opening statement. The statement is very lengthy and will be made public. Could Mr. Kearney try to very much deal with the areas relating to the meeting about airspace? There are other matters in there so perhaps he can give a very quick synopsis of those aspects of his statement. We are just conscious of time. This is a very important matter and I do not want to in any way confine Mr. Kearney but it is a 13-page statement.

Dr. Peter Kearney

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to attend this meeting and to speak on the topic of the Russian military exercises which were originally planned to take place this week in Irish-controlled airspace. I am joined by my colleague, Mr. Peter Kavanagh, who is Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, general manager foren-route and aeronautical information services. He operates from Ballycasey in Shannon.

I will briefly introduce the committee to the Irish Aviation Authority. This is primarily for the purpose of informing members as to the areas of the IAA’s responsibilities I can discuss this afternoon and which areas are outside my remit. As the committee is aware, the IAA is a commercial State company founded in 1994 under the provisions of the Irish Aviation Authority Act 1993. We currently carry out three key functions under statute: safety regulation of civil aviation, oversight of security regulation for civil aviation, and air navigation and air traffic management services in Irish-controlled airspace.

As committee members will be aware, the IAA is currently undergoing a process of restructuring which involves the separation of its functions into two distinct companies. Post separation, the new IAA will retain the IAA’s current safety regulatory and security oversight functions, while the functions of the Commission for Aviation Regulation, CAR, will be merged into the new single aviation regulator. A new company, AirNav Ireland, will be established to carry out the IAA’s current commercial air navigation and air traffic management services functions. For the purposes of this hearing, I will refer to this part of the IAA as the air navigation service provider, the IAA ANSP. As members will be aware, the restructuring process is well under way. The formal date for vesting is expected to be 31 March. I am highlighting this to ensure that committee members are clear with regard to which entity or roles I am speaking on behalf of today. My position as CEO of the current IAA will transition to become CEO of AirNav Ireland when vesting day occurs.

As I mentioned, we are currently in a transitionary phase and accordingly I do not have any current responsibilities for aviation safety regulation. Mr. Diarmuid Ó Conghaile, who I understand met with the committee on a separate matter last November, is CEO designate of the new IAA and is currently responsible for aviation regulatory matters. Therefore, my statement is focused solely on the IAA’s air navigation service provision activities.

With regard to Irish-controlled airspace, the IAA ANSP’s core role is the provision of air traffic services to civilian aircraft operating in Irish-controlled airspace. We do this in line with international standards and recommended practices as set out by the International Civil Aviation Organisation, ICAO, which is a UN agency. We provide air traffic management services to the three State airports, Dublin, Shannon and Cork, as well as providing air navigation and air traffic management services in a number of different areas of Irish-controlled airspace, which covers 455,000 sq. km. We are certified to carry out these activities under the requirements of Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) 2017/373 and our processes and procedures are approved by the regulatory authority in line with European and international requirements. Safety of air traffic management, ATM, operations is our number one priority.

I have included in our written submission a simple map outlining relevant airspace regions. I will now explain this map for the committee members. For their information, the map also shows the area where the Russian military exercise had been scheduled to take place. This is marked in red. Although the Russian Federation has indicated that planned exercise would be moved as a result of which the original airspace restrictions have been cancelled, we need to remain alert that the exercises could take place at a new location outside of our area of responsibility but in an area that could impact our operation.

The Shannon flight information region, FIR, refers to the airspace over the Irish Republic landmass and a portion of airspace off the west coast of Ireland. This airspace has been designated to the Irish State by ICAO. The Shanwick oceanic region, which stretches to halfway across the Atlantic Ocean including the two areas marked as NOTA and SOTA, is international airspace and is considered “high seas” airspace. Under a state-to-state international agreement made between Ireland and the UK in 1966 and approved by ICAO, air traffic control in the Shanwick oceanic region is the responsibility of the UK. As part of this Shanwick oceanic agreement, Ireland has responsibility for aeronautical communications with aircraft and therefore the UK and Ireland work closely and collaboratively to ensure the safety of aircraft transiting through the Shanwick region. Updates to this 1966 agreement in 1990 and 2004 resulted in the provision of air traffic services in the SOTA and NOTA parts of the Shanwick region being delegated by the UK to Ireland. Consequently, the IAA ANSP provides a full air traffic management service to air traffic in NOTA, SOTA and the Shannon FIR, effectively operating these three regions as one consolidated airspace region. It is important to remember that NOTA and SOTA remain as international or high seas airspace. For clarity, NOTA stands for the northern oceanic transition area while SOTA stands for the Shannon oceanic transition area.

The IAA ANSP operates to the highest European and international standards. Safety is our number one priority and we have rigorous processes and procedures, approved by regulators, in place to ensure we deliver a safe, effective and efficient service to all airspace users. There is continual regulatory oversight of our entire operation, including regular audits and inspections. In addition, any changes to our operation must be approved by the regulators following their review of detailed risk assessments and safety cases. This high level of oversight is conducted by both national and European regulators, including the European Union Aviation Safety Agency, EASA.

Our safety performance is among the best in Europe. In 2020, the latest year for which scores are available, the IAA ANSP scored 96% in the EASA effectiveness of safety management ranking process carried out by EASA and the national regulator. This positions us in the top three European service providers and we have consistently ranked in the top five European service providers over the past five years. The IAA has a mature safety monitoring system in place and we prioritise continual safety and refresher training for staff.

We also operate an efficient, high-quality service for our airline customers. While, obviously, the past two years have been difficult due to the Covid-19 pandemic, we have a long history of effectively no delays in Irish airspace while our environmental score was second in Europe last year. This provides significant benefits to airlines and to passengers in terms of on-time performance, fuel and CO2 efficiency. Our unit rate cost to customers is one of the lowest in Europe and our recent annual customer care survey from 2021 indicates a customer satisfaction score of over 90%.

The IAA ANSP deploys the latest technology to support our safety and efficiency objectives. Our COOPANS ATM system, developed between the IAA ANSP and our partners in Denmark, Sweden, Austria, Portugal and Croatia, is widely regarded across Europe as the standard bearer in terms of air traffic management systems. This, combined with modern radar, communications and navigational systems, equips our staff with the necessary tools to deliver their safety critical roles in an effective manner.

Ireland’s location on the western edge of Europe means that the IAA ANSP plays a critical role in the effective and efficient functioning of the European ATM network. Over 90% of transatlantic air traffic transits through IAA-controlled airspace. We manage our airspace in a manner that is flexible to the needs of our airline customers, dividing the airspace into different blocks or sectors to ensure each individual aircraft is safely managed and taking account of the traffic flows which can vary from day to day.

These activities for the Shannon FIR, NOTA and SOTA airspace regions are managed from our Shannon en-route centre at Ballycasey, Shannon, County Clare. Air traffic control officers based in Ballycasey have specific licences and ratings for the management of this en-route traffic and undergo rigorous regulator-approved training. They receive accurate radar data from IAA radar stations based along the west coast indicating the exact location of each aircraft while they communicate directly with the flight crew through VHF communications and our COOPANS system. Air traffic controllers follow strict procedures and receive regular safety management and refresher training. I trust this has provided some useful background to the committee. I will now go into more detail with regard to the safe management of civilian aircraft when there is a military exercise.

As the committee is aware, the Russian Federation advised of a planned military exercise from 3 to 8 February. The Minister, Deputy Coveney, announced on 29 January that he had received a letter from the Russian Minister of Defence confirming the exercise would be moved outside of Ireland's exclusive economic zone, EEZ. The IAA received a notice to airmen, NOTAM, on 31 January that cancelled the original notice of this exercise. We have received no further aeronautical information from the Russian Federation regarding a new exercise area, which could be outside our area of responsibility and not subject to IAA ANSP notification. Therefore, we will remain vigilant and consult with adjacent air traffic control centres to minimise any impact to our operation.

For the purpose of ensuring that the committee is fully briefed, I will outline how we would plan to manage the impact of the exercise on civilian aircraft within the airspace under our control. This information can be considered to describe the process by which the IAA ANSP would manage any other similar exercise in international airspace, be it Russian, UK, US or any other military. I stress that, while not commonplace, military exercises do occur from time to time in international waters or airspace and that there are agreed international procedures in place for the safe management of civilian aircraft while such exercises take place. These procedures are set down under the Chicago Convention and are overseen by ICAO. Ireland is a contracting state to ICAO and the IAA, as Ireland’s ANSP, follows and implements the standards and procedures set down by ICAO. In the case of military exercises in international airspace, the responsibility is on the State carrying out the exercise in the first instance to ensure that it has notified the exercise to the relevant ANSP in line with the ICAO requirements. Once this happens, the State responsible for the airspace, which, in the case of the original planned exercise, was the UK, and the relevant ANSP, in this case, the IAA ANSP, follow the remainder of the agreed procedure to notify aircraft and restrict access to the area in question in order to ensure the safety of civilian aircraft.

With regard to EUROCONTROL, it is the Irish State that is a member of this pan-European body. The IAA ANSP's interaction with EUROCONTROL is with its European network manager function. In the case of the Russian military exercise, EUROCONTROL's network manager would have limited responsibility, apart from ensuring submitted aircraft flight plans submitted do not contain a flight route through the airspace in question.

The military exercise that the Russian Federation had planned for the period from 3 February to 8 February was to take place in a portion of the SOTA region of the north Atlantic indicated by the red rectangle in the map I have provided. As indicated, this is international airspace. Any state can utilise this airspace once it follows the agreed ICAO approach for notification to civil aviation.

We are satisfied that, in this instance and in the context of the ICAO process, the Russian Federation followed the appropriate internationally agreed process for notification regarding such an exercise. In addition, once notified of the exercise and its planned location, the IAA ANSP followed the appropriate process to ensure the safety of civilian aircraft.

I will now bring members through these steps at a high level, noting that following the cancellation of the notice to airmen or pilots, NOTAM, for this exercise, the restrictions indicated in these steps have now also been cancelled. Notification from the Russian Federation to the UK's air traffic management authority, UK National Air Traffic Services, UK NATS, regarding a proposed military exercise was received on 19 January. UK NATS was the appropriate first point of contact under the ICAO procedure because, as explained, the portion of airspace in question, SOTA, remains the responsibility of the UK. Following receipt of this notification, UK NATS contacted the IAA ANSP as the latter is the entity to which air traffic management services have been delegated in the SOTA region. Once the notification was received, there was a period of co-ordination and co-operation between the IAA ANSP, UK NATS and the EUROCONTROL network manager.

In parallel with this, we carried out the required safety assessments and advised UK NATS and EUROCONTROL regarding the exact details of the restrictions that needed to be put in place. The procedures developed to ensure the safe rerouting of aircraft to avoid the proposed exercise were then submitted for approval to the Irish regulatory authorities on 27 January. On 27 January, the UK authorities published the required NOTAM, which informs airlines with regard to the closure of the portion of airspace. The NOTAM outlined the specific airspace and specific waypoints that would be closed and the hours of closure. This means that aircraft could not be routed to the closed waypoints during the time within which the NOTAM applied. In parallel, and in line with the NOTAM, EUROCONTROL's systems would not allow an aircraft to plan a flight through the restricted area during the period when the NOTAM is applicable.

A separate NOTAM was also issued by the IAA to advise of the UK-issued international NOTAM, while we had also advised airlines of the airspace closure through our customer care channels. In addition to this, and at an operational level, the IAA's en route operations manager had advised operations in the Gander oceanic region, the area adjacent to Shanwick controlled by Nav Canada, of the closure and the waypoints that were not to be available for transit. This means that Gander would not route aircraft coming from North America via the closed points during the period when the NOTAM was to apply.

The practical outcome of these steps is that the area of airspace where the exercise was to take place had been closed to civil aircraft for the required period between 3 February and 8 February. To further protect civil aviation, we had also put in additional buffers to widen the restricted area beyond that notified by the Russian authorities and had increased the restricted altitude to unlimited, meaning no civilian aircraft could fly into, or over, the restricted area. We also widened the time of the closures to ensure that all aircraft would have exited the area well in advance of the naval exercise commencing.

All of the above steps were put in place to ensure the safety of the operation of civilian aircraft. Again, I stress that this approach is consistent with the ICAO standard, which is designed to protect the safety of civilian aircraft. Although there would have been a chance that the efficiency of aircraft routing would be marginally affected as a result of the NOTAM, requiring extra track miles for aircraft due to the need to route around the closed airspace, the safety of operations within Irish air traffic control airspace would not have been impacted, as all civilian aircraft would be routed away from the relevant area in SOTA during the activity.

For clarity, this same process would be put in place for any other military event in international airspace controlled by the IAA ANSP. If an exercise was planned for further out in the Atlantic in the Shanwick region operated by the UK NATS, then the IAA ANSP would not have been involved in the development of the NOTAM or the restriction of the airspace. In that instance, UK NATS would follow the ICAO procedures and route the civilian aircraft safely away from the restricted area. We would, however, have been made aware of the exercise by UK NATS, due to our aeronautical communications role in the Shanwick region.

I will give some detail in the context of normal operations in international airspace. On a normal day, the IAA ANSP provides a full air traffic management or air navigation service to airlines operating in the areas of international airspace that fall within its responsibility, including NOTA and SOTA. For example, over the course of last week, we handled an average of 800 aircraft per day in NOTA, SOTA and the Shannon flight information region combined. By way of comparison, in normal times, for example, 2019, this figure could be more than 950 aircraft per day.

There are typically two main flows on the north Atlantic: the eastbound flow in the early morning, between 4 a.m. and 8 a.m., which primarily sees US and Canadian flights into Europe; and the westbound flow in the late morning, from 9 a.m. to 1 p.m., which primarily sees European departures to North America. These aircraft typically follow set tracks in north Atlantic airspace, which are set each day depending on the location of the north Atlantic jet stream. Eastbound aircraft want to get into the jet stream as it provides for a faster, more fuel-efficient crossing, while westbound aircraft want to avoid the headwind caused by the jet stream and so follow a track that is either north or south of the jet stream, depending on the location of the jet stream on any particular day. This means that, depending on the weather, there may be a large volume of air traffic in the SOTA region on any particular day or very little.

At present, based on current weather projections, it is likely that some of the north Atlantic route tracks would be set to go through the SOTA airspace between 3 February and 8 February, or traffic would route through SOTA to join a particular north Atlantic track. With the Russian exercise now cancelled and the NOTAM restricting the airspace also cancelled, aircraft are now free to plan flights through the area of SOTA that was to have been restricted. They can now plan the most efficient transatlantic routing as normal, taking account of the jet stream and without having to avoid a portion of SOTA. However, if the Russian exercise had not been cancelled and the relevant portion of SOTA airspace was to be closed between 3 February and 8 February, then these aircraft would have to fly an alternative route if they had been planning to go through that portion of SOTA. The procedures that the IAA ANSP had put in place would have provided a safe route for these aircraft around the restricted zone and on to their destination, once they were clear of the restricted zone.

I trust this provides an overview of the management of this exercise from an air traffic management perspective. While events such as this in international airspace are not common, they do occur from time to time. Air navigation service providers such as the IAA follow the ICAO standard procedures. We treated the event in question in the exact same as we would have treated any other military exercise in Irish-controlled airspace. While the NOTAM has now been cancelled and civilian aircraft are free to route through the relevant portion of airspace between 3 February and 8 February, the approach taken to this event would have fully protected civilian aircraft from the exercise.

Our staff are trained for events like this, and the routing of aircraft away from the restricted airspace is not a significant concern for us. Following NOTAMs is something airlines do daily.

Safety is the IAA ANSP's first priority. The actions taken since being notified of the proposed exercise were carried out in the interest of the safety of civil aviation and fully in line with ICAO standards and recommendations.

I thank the members for their attention. I am now available to answer any question they may have.

I thank Dr. Kearney. That was very comprehensive. He certainly presented the information in a very concise way, for which I thank him. We will now move to questions from members. First up is Senator Dooley.

I thank Dr. Kearney and Mr. Kavanagh for attending and for the comprehensive presentation. To some extent, events have overtaken the purpose of our invitation, but we welcome the attendance of the witnesses to outline what they have outlined.

It is clear that even if the exercises that were scheduled and announced had been going ahead, there was a contingency plan to deal with them professionally. We would not expect anything less. To some extent, the IAA has been fortunate by virtue of the efforts the fishermen have made. Was any effort made by the IAA to communicate with the Russians in advance other than by accepting the diktat they provided and addressing the risk in a very professional way? Was there any diplomacy deployed within the IAA, perhaps at board level, to talk to the Russian ambassador?

Dr. Peter Kearney

There was not. In fact, the ICAO procedure that we follow in these matters lays out a number of steps for how we manage them. One of these involves co-ordination between IAA ANSP and the military entity that is to conduct the exercise. There was a provision for that but we would not have a role in anything other than accepting the entity is conducting the exercise in international airspace, facilitating that and ensuring the safety of civilian aircraft.

I am only trying to consider the diplomacy. I know it would not be for Dr. Kearney, but was the board or chairperson notified of the situation? Is Dr. Kearney aware of whether the chairperson made any effort to discuss the matter with the Russian embassy or, indeed, the ambassador? Was any diplomatic contact made at that level?

Dr. Peter Kearney

There are standard protocols internally, of course. We inform the chair and the board of unusual activity, as it were. This activity would qualify under that. As a matter of course, we also inform the Department of Transport in relation to it. However, to be honest, in terms of diplomacy it is beyond our remit. We simply focus solely on the safety of civil aviation.

Absolutely. I am not raising any questions in that regard. I am just wondering, because it is in that kind of softer area that the board and senior members of the board would come into play. Of course, it is not for Dr. Kearney to answer this, but I am somewhat surprised that there was not some communication between the board of the IAA and the ambassador. The reality is that we have all been done a favour by the tenacity and, in fairness, the courage of the fishermen and that that has been achieved, considering the impact that the exercises would have had. Dr Kearney has rightly outlined what it would have done to commercial aviation. Thankfully, it is a moot point now.

Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned and maybe the committee will make a recommendation that in future if such an event were to happen that the board would consider addressing such a matter with the appropriate ambassador or embassy to see if an accommodation, such as the one that was achieved by the fishermen, could be achieved. I thank Dr. Kearney. It is clear that at an operational level the IAA identified the risk, as was set out, and put all the appropriate actions in place in response to a real-life threat. It so happens that to the benefit of everyone, it has been resolved. I commend the IAA for its ongoing work in that area.

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

Perhaps I can make a clarification in case there is a misunderstanding. These types of exercise are carried out by a number of agencies. We see one or two of them per year in certain portions of the airspace. I do not think it is the case that depending on the state that applies, we might seek to get it to cancel its exercises.

By way of example, would notice of these exercises be in the public domain? In this case, the exercises were being carried out by the Russian Federation. Perhaps Mr. Kavanagh can think of one or two other examples. Who would be involved?

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

Typically, we see occasional activity by UK or US authorities. In respect of notice of the exercise being in the public domain, they are notified in the exact same way to the airlines and the public via a notice to airmen, NOTAM. The point I am trying to get across is that this is standard international practice. I am not sure that it is something that the board could even get involved in. They are international waters and states are allowed to carry out such exercises under international law. I am not sure that it would be appropriate for a board to go to the various states and ask them to move their exercises.

So Mr. Kavanagh regards it as an operational matter?

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

That is correct.

I take Mr. Kavanagh's point. However, I think the fishermen have shown all of us that even when things seem obvious, issues can be resolved in a diplomatic way. It does not particularly fall within our remit here, but it would not do any harm for the committee to send its congratulations to the fishermen for their tenacity and courage in addressing a serious issue. Perhaps others could take note from what has been achieved.

It was very much a team effort. The fishermen and the Minister for Defence, Deputy Coveney, did great work.

Absolutely. I put that on the record.

It was very much a collective effort. The outcome here has been a very good and positive one. I think the Minister has very much acknowledged that.

My question has been answered by Mr. Kavanagh. First of all, I would like to thank the witnesses for the presentation and for bringing us up to date on the restructuring of the administration and regulation of Irish aviation. Obviously, as we speak the legislation is progressing through the Seanad. Are the witnesses satisfied that these new entities will have the necessary funding and capacity to improve oversight, control and management of air navigation traffic? I wish the IAA well with the establishment of AirNav Ireland and both of the witnesses well in their respective positions of leadership in those entities.

In relation to the Russian situation, we have heard and read a lot about it. The people in Ireland had no idea that it was happening or could happen. I think it was, how should I put it, and information exercise, certainly for the public, as to what does go on, why the role of the IAA in that area is so important and why it deserves the support necessary to fulfil its obligations and functions on behalf of the State and the Irish people. I wish to compliment the IAA on the confident and capable way that it has dealt with that matter, as outlined in its submission today. As the Chairman said, it was a collective effort and all involved deserve credit.

The question I was going to ask has been answered by Mr. Kavanagh. I was going to ask if any other country has carried out military exercises off the Irish coastline in the past? Are any exercises planned for the future? More importantly, is this the first time that the Russian Federation has requested permission to carry out military exercises in the Irish zone? Obviously, because of what is happening in other parts of the world, it heightened tensions. As I understand it from the witnesses' presentation, these types of exercises are relatively normal and there is a procedure that has to be followed to ensure that nobody suffers as a result of the exercises and that they are carefully managed and controlled.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct. The Deputy has asked a lot of questions. I will try and cover some of the ground. I can state that in the last five years, for example, there were four distinct military exercises for which we made airspace management arrangements to take care of and manage the civil aviation safety aspects of them. In terms of our living memory, and certainly, the memory as far as we can find in the IAA, we do not recall a Russian airspace exercise which would influence the airspace in any way.

I absolutely take the Deputy's point on the public getting a lot of information on it and not realising what is going on. Certainly, with what is being seen in Ukraine and Russia and the sensitivities around that, I can understand how people would be very concerned. From our point of view, such exercises are absolutely routine. There is nothing unusual at all about them. The Russian exercises did not generate any surprise or additional level of alertness within our organisation. We simply applied procedures that we have operated from many years. From the air traffic controllers' point of view, I can assure the Deputy that when they sit down at the radar position, they have only one mission in mind, which is to separate civilian aircraft from each other and from this type of activity. That is a very clear mission. That is what we do 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. They are incredibly well trained and extremely professional. I am very proud of them in the way they do that.

On the question the Deputy raised concerning the two entities when they separate, and whether they will be adequately funded, certainly, I can speak on behalf of AirNav. We have been a very profitable business for a number of years. In total, since about 2013, we have delivered dividends to the State in the order of €80 million. In 2019, which would be a reasonable year to use as a reference, we managed 1.1 million aircraft in the airspace. All of those aircraft pay a fee either in terms of a unit rate or a radio charge. That process will continue.

We certainly have plans to expand our operation. We are already involved in joint talks with the Canadians and NAV CANADA, and the UK, with NATS. We are looking at how we might manage the north Atlantic airspace in a more efficient way among ourselves, but providing radar services. Currently, we operate under a 1966 State agreement with the UK which sees the UK provide air traffic control and us provide radio communications. The technology has advanced so much that the radio communications are falling away. We are strategically looking ahead and planning for us to have a greater role in the north Atlantic in the coming years. It is all designed to ensure that we remain commercial.

I think it is also important to let the committee know that huge advances have been made in the technology available to us. It is now technically possible for us to control our traffic in Australia. We could monitor the airspace, provide radar separation, turns and climbs. We could speak to the aircraft there as required. That has been through an investment we have made in the system called Aireon, which provides us with a global view of traffic over the world. The committee might be interested to learn that we have 54 radio operators working from Ballygirren, County Clare.

They see aircraft all across the globe. At least once a week, they will save the life of a pilot in an aircraft in distress. There are often cases in Australia where a small aircraft goes into the bush and we provide up-to-date information on its last known position to the rescue services in Australia. We have also done it in the US. We saved the life of a pilot who was transiting to the Bahamas and went into the sea. That is the type of technology available to us now. The commerciality of AirNav Ireland will improve and grow.

I thank Mr. Kavanagh and Dr. Kearney for attending. In fairness, they have answered a significant number of questions beyond what is contained in the comprehensive report they prepared. What did Mr. Kearney call that technology?

Dr. Peter Kearney

The Aerion system.

A number of things have been thrown out here. What made this event different was the fact it was in the context of what is happening on the Russia-Ukraine border and we saw it as a part of ratcheting up of tension by Russia. There has been much commentary about Ireland and weaknesses in our capacity that may exist from a military and naval standpoint. That does not relate to our guests. There has been commentary about our ability to be actively neutral, in the sense of not requiring the services of our neighbour.

There has been much discussion about the technology we have and do not have in terms of radar and sonar. I get that our guests are interested in safety and civil aviation. Do our guests have a sort of capacity the military does not have? We are going to have to ask a wider question, particularly after the review by the Commission on the Defence Forces.

Dr. Peter Kearney

First and foremost, the COOPANS air traffic management system we have uses two different types of radar. It uses secondary surveillance and primary radar. Those are two different types of radar. All of the data from those radars are provided to the military and the Air Corps use it for its own operations. That is the first point.

The Air Corps is reliant on the IAA because it does not have the technology.

Dr. Peter Kearney

We feed it data. We have comprehensive radar systems on the western seaboard. There are also some in Dublin. We feed that infrastructure and provide the Air Corps with the exact same information we have. That would be typical in many states. It is not unusual.

I accept that. I am sorry for interrupting. There was much discussion of the fact that the military needs a greater level of radar capacity. If aeroplanes switch off their locators or whatever, it is impossible to see them unless one can physically see them. The IAA has a capacity to-----

Dr. Peter Kearney

The difference is that we use primary radar, which is the radar that would be required on the west coast in respect of the activity the Deputy is talking about. We use that in a very limited way. We use in what we call terminal areas. We have it at Dublin, Cork and Shannon. We use it as a facilitation to aircraft approaching to land at an airport. We are really only interested in approximately 60 miles around an airport. That type of radar is an aeronautical radar. The capabilities that might be required from a military perspective would be wholly different and they would not be capabilities for which we would have any use at all.

I accept that. As Dr. Kearney said, the military would have to look at a wider scope, particularly when we are talking about economic zones beyond territorial waters. I imagine the IAA has no great need for sonar.

Dr. Peter Kearney

We would have no knowledge of, or use for, sonar.

The IAA is interested in matters in the air.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is absolutely the case.

Those weaknesses have been shown. In fairness, our guests have shown the advantages they have from the technology that is out there.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Our secondary surveillance radars, for example, operate to a range of 256 nautical miles. We can see aircraft almost 300 miles west of the west coast. We can see aircraft as they come off the north Atlantic and we provide them with an air traffic control service from the west of Ireland.

That is based on an aircraft that has a transformer switched on.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

The IAA would not be able to detect an aircraft that has its transformer switched off.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

The weakness still exists. Dr. Kearney talked about four similar events. Can he go into specific details of those? Were they similar events in the sense that they were live missile firing tests?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Oftentimes, we do not know what is being conducted. It is international airspace, high seas airspace. A state sets up what is wishes to do and all we do, under our remit, is separate civil aircraft from that activity. It is clinical in that way. We have no real need to know what is going on, other than there is a need for aircraft to stay away from it. In 2021, there was a NATO event in the NOTA region. There was another event that year which was conducted by the French military in the SOTA region in high seas airspace. In 2017, a UK exercise was conducted in the SOTA region. Those are the events with which we were familiar. There were no such events in 2018, 2019 or 2020.

Those exercises were carried out by Britain, France and NATO?

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

There were two in 2021, one conducted by NATO in NOTA and one conducted by France in SOTA. Before that, the most recent such exercise was carried out by the UK in SOTA.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

That is the same region the Russians were proposing to carry out their exercises.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

The IAA is notified such an event will impact on airspace. Would it be fair to guess that is because those exercises are somewhat similar? These are ships and they are literally staying where they are or they are submarines and will not impact-----

Dr. Peter Kearney

It is some activity within the airspace which could provide a threat to civil aircraft. It might mean military aircraft are flying around. From our point of view, we are not that concerned. We put in place buffers around that airspace to protect civil aircraft and we stay well away. We are as clinical as that.

In an awful lot of these cases, it might not be a naval operation. It is flying exercises, etc.

What did the IAA understand the Russian exercise was going to be, in layman's terms?

Dr. Peter Kearney

The NOTAM was very clear and outlined what they intended to do, which was artillery firing and missile firing.

There was no form of aircraft involved.

Dr. Peter Kearney

There was no information in respect of any aircraft.

Is Dr. Kearney saying that the IAA is given less information by NATO, the French or the British? Given the context, I do not want to say "In fairness to the Russians", but the IAA knew exactly what it was dealing with in that case whereas in those other instances it did not.

Dr. Peter Kearney

I do not have that detail here but I am sure we have it. We will get a broad outline of what activity is taking place.

Dr. Peter Kearney

The point we are making is that we are not that concerned. We are simply concerned to make sure that we stay well away from the geographical area and the vertical limit within which it is happening. That is our sole focus.

I accept that. Our guests probably never thought they would be answering questions such as these.

I thank Dr. Kearney and Mr. Kavanagh for their presentation and their openness on this issue. It is an extremely sensitive and unwelcome development on the part of Russia. People are glad this exercise is not going ahead as planned. I welcome the interventions of the Minister, Deputy Coveney, and the fishermen of the south west, and thank them for their efforts. The planned military drill was extremely unwelcome, particularly at this time when there are sensitivities around Ukraine.

Dr. Kearney made reference to the IAA personnel in Ballygirreen and Ballycasey in Clare. I pay tribute to them, their work ethic and their skill. It is obvious they are at the top of their game. They are ranked number three in the European league. I am sure they are trying to improve on that ranking. It is a tribute to us in Ireland and to the level of skill on offer here.

Many of the questions I was going to pose have been asked. Dr. Kearney made reference to how 800 aircraft would have been travelling in that zone at the time these drills were forecast to happen. Theoretically, how many of those aircraft would have been displaced? What would that have meant, practically, for air passengers and carriers? Dr. Kearney has said this is routine in some instances when carriers get a notification through the IAA or whichever regulatory body has the jurisdiction. What would it have meant, in practice?

Dr. Peter Kearney

To clarify, the 800 aircraft figure was for the totality of the day. Strict capacities run through air traffic control sectors. I know the Deputy has a map to hand and it is a little hard to judge it but it was quite a small amount of airspace was being taken by them. When we did our safety analysis, there was a requirement to put in some additional buffers, both laterally and vertically, for safety reasons. Due to its proximity to the edge of our FIR, we closed some of the points there. That would have meant that strategically, the airlines would have been well-briefed and well-informed in advance and would have just rerouted before the aircraft had taken off.

The impact would be minimal. Our environmental score is measured by the flight-plan route and the shortest route an aircraft could take versus the route it actually took on the day. Taking account that there was a military exercise last year, the impact was minimal and we scored 98% to be number two in Europe in terms of efficiency in environmental achievement.

We spend considerable time not only making sure that aircraft are safe but also making sure our operations are efficient. That requires great skill from our controllers. I would like to join the Deputy and thank him very much for his compliments to our colleagues. They do an incredible job, 24 hours per day, 365 days per year. They are very dedicated and extremely skilled and their sole focus is safety and efficiency, every time.

Is there a module within the training manual on this aspect of their duties?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes.

Do controllers partake in training exercises on a yearly basis? Will Dr. Kearney expand on that?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Absolutely. It is part of what we call ab initio training, which controllers learn in a bookwork section. They also then have training exercises that have this activity within the exercise and they would be tested upon that. Every year, we provide training for unusual circumstances and events, TRUCE, and live experience from activity such as this is fed into that training, as well. We spend considerable time training people. If we are making systems changes, if there are unusual changes to the procedures or if an unusual event is happening, typically, we will have done a review of the procedure and will have done a safety analysis. It then will be necessary to brief our controllers on the changes in order that when they sit down in a position, they are fully ready to go and run traffic through their sector. It is a huge part of what we do.

Excellent. With regard to training and classes, I corresponded with the IAA on a course based in Shannon that trained up these highly-skilled people but which was suspended last year. Will Dr. Kearney confirm that course is reactivated and that those people are back in the classroom to learn their skills and please God, move into the field?

Dr. Peter Kearney

I am delighted to tell the Deputy they are already in training and the class that followed, student controller programme, SCP, 18, will commence in August. It is hoped we are coming out of the far end of the impact of Covid. We are looking at quite optimistic traffic forecasts for the rest of this year and onwards. In fact, we anticipate we will achieve somewhere between 80% and 90% of 2019 traffic levels by the end of this year. We are recruiting. We have also taken in ten engineers for our infrastructure and will take another 14 engineers in the summertime, as well.

I encourage any members of the public who are interested. It is the most fantastic and rewarding career anybody can take on. I trained as a student controller in Shannon and speak from experience. I encourage anybody who has an interest in aviation to follow our website and social media. We welcome those with an interest in aviation.

Dr. Kearney is looking to the figures coming back to 80% or 90% of the 2019 figures by the end of this year.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

That is highly positive and is not what the industry has been saying up to recent times.

Dr. Peter Kearney

No. For example, British Airways now has A380 aircraft back on and coming through our airspace while flying from London to Miami, some of which came through today. Lufthansa tells us it will probably put approximately 80% of the 2019 capacity back on the ocean this year. We know United Airlines is looking at increasing its operation on the ocean by approximately 10%. We are seeing it across both-----

Is that the airspace the IAA controls and manages?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It is. That gives us an indication of what is happening in the US market, as well as Europe. Hopefully we will not encounter another Covid variant but we will push forward in a very optimistic way.

We will now move to Senator Horkan who will replace Deputy O'Connor in the Fianna Fáil slot.

I thank Dr. Kearney and Mr. Kavanagh for their very enlightening statement. As someone who had an airband radio as a child, it is all coming back to me now. The frequencies are coming back into my head.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Great.

I took a significant interest at the time. The name "Shanwick" came from Shannon and Prestwick in Glasgow.

Senator Horkan may have had another career, had he decided.

Who knows? I could have. In fact, I had a classmate in college studying commerce with me who went off-----

Dr. Peter Kearney

There is still time.

Dr. Kearney is recruiting.

Dr. Peter Kearney

I certainly am.

It seems he may be able to facilitate it.

It seems the Chairman is spotting all kinds of talent. I did commerce in UCD and my classmate went off and became an air traffic controller and I think he still very successful. I thank the IAA for all it is doing. As we have said before at other meetings of this committee, Ireland punches well above its weight in aviation in terms of the population, what we do and the involvement of Irish people all over the world, including in the International Air Transport Association, IATA, and Quantas and given the size of Ryanair and so on. Tony Ryan and Guinness Peat Aviation, GPA, were very close to Shannon. Many of the questions have been answered but as I understand it, the IAA has jurisdiction over the Shannon FIR, NOTA, and SOTA. Shanwick itself is not administered by the IAA. Is that correct?

Dr. Peter Kearney

The Senator was absolutely correct in what he originally said about Prestwick. It continues to be a joint operation between us in Ballygirreen and Prestwick. How it works, at present, is that Prestwick provides the air traffic control and the separation between the aircraft when it is over the north Atlantic Ocean and we provide the communications using high-frequency, HF, communications based at Ballygirreen.

The IAA is effectively providing the technology that Prestwick use but that is UK-administered airspace. Shanwick is UK-administered.

Dr. Peter Kearney

It is jointly operated and we are careful to remind our colleagues in the UK of that. It is jointly delegated from ICAO to Ireland and the UK. That was formally done in 1966.

We, as a State, are in revenue-----

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes.

-----from the aeroplanes in the Shanwick area, as well as the NOTA, SOTA and Shannon FIR.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct. How we do that is we provide a HF communication to the aircraft. We charge a flat rate of €45 to the aircraft and it can make as many communications as it wishes. That is how it works.

The IAA makes money out of the Shanwick area and Prestwick, or the UK, makes money out of the Shanwick area.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

However, the NOTA and SOTA are the exclusive reserve of the IAA, along with the Shannon FIR.

Dr. Peter Kearney

They are but they are time limited. They were time limited towards 2025 at which point there will be a review. In advance of that review, we are engaging in the oceanic gateway project, which is a collaboration between ourselves, the UK-----

Is that just for NOTA and SOTA?

Dr. Peter Kearney

We will look at the whole of the ocean.

However, what about the Shannon-----

NOTA and SOTA are part of Shanwick-----

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes, they are.

-----but they are more administered by Ireland than the Shanwick area, generally.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct. How that came about, if the Senator would like to know, is that in 1990 and 2004, we put two new radars in place. One was on Mount Gabriel on the Cork-Kerry border, which looks down in to SOTA and gave us coverage the UK did not have and we could be much more efficient and safe in that area.

We put the other radar to the north of the country that looked up to NOTA. Again, we were able to provide a much more efficient operation there. That is why we have those two pieces there. The UK could not look in.

To reiterate, ICAO administers the world’s airspace and it says this is your exclusive area, this is a shared area and so on. I did not think I would ever be at a committee in Leinster House discussing this stuff and I am sure we have a particular audience watching who are very good at this stuff. It is useful that it was the Russian exercise that got Dr. Kearney here and we are getting a better understanding of it.

I caught a reference earlier to artillery and missile firing. Is that in relation to the current Russian activities or is that related to a previous activity of another nation?

Dr. Peter Kearney

That was indicated to us through the notice to airmen that the Russian Federation sent. It indicated the scope of the activity and the activity that would take place.

Does it give you kind of height levels that the missiles might reach? For example, is it 2,000 ft or is it 40,000 ft?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes. It specified the top of its activity was 11,000 m in the notice to airmen that it provided to us. Russians use metres rather than feet. When we did our safety analysis on that, we simply used an abundance of caution at that and decided not to take its number but to go unlimited and to not allow anybody to cross on top.

The altitude of 11,000 m is very significant; it is 11 km or whatever. It is 37,000 ft. This is not small-level missile activity. These are missiles that could get up.

At what height does an aeroplane typically fly at?

Dr. Peter Kearney

We have aircraft out there that could be up at 30,000 or 40,000 ft. Equally though, you might have a heavy Airbus that has just departed from Heathrow, full of fuel, looking to get up to a level and it might just cross 32,000 ft, 34,000 ft or something around there.

Well above the 11,000 m.

Dr. Peter Kearney

No, it would not be flying higher than that.

The 11,000 m figure is 37,000 ft.

How high would the aeroplanes typically be flying, in terms of metres?

Dr. Peter Kearney

We could have aircraft that are well above 37,000 ft at that point. There could be some other aircraft that are very heavy, are full of fuel and passengers that are still climbing and might be a bit slow. Just to be totally safe, we keep them away.

Obviously, there are many aircraft coming out places such as Frankfurt, Paris, Turkey. There is also aircraft leaving, as Dr. Kearney said, London and, indeed, Dublin and Shannon, that are still climbing at that point.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

Just to understand, this was not low-level, over-the-horizon activity. This was a capacity to go to 11,000 m, which, as Dr. Kearney said, is approximately 37,000 ft, which is well within the range of an awful lot of aircraft. Many aircraft would be flying at 33,000, 35,000 or 37,000 ft, as well as the 41,000 ft ones that Dr. Kearney is talking about.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

That is useful. As for the other countries from which the IAA gets the same notification, were they the UK and France? Were they the other ones that were mentioned?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes, we have seen UK and French exercises. That is predominantly it. The United States as well.

Have they all been in that SOTA region? Does it sometimes happen in the NOTA region as well?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes, exactly. Not necessarily SOTA, but within high seas airspace.

I know the regions are different and the exclusive economic zone, EEZ, and the flight information region, FIRs and so on are not the same. The Shannon FIR is not Irish airspace as such, is it? Is the Shannon FIR Irish airspace, as opposed to NOTA and SOTA, which are international airspace?

Dr. Peter Kearney

The Shannon FIR is Irish-controlled airspace.

It is Irish-controlled airspace. Is it international airspace as well?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes.

Consequently, they would not need permission. If they wanted to do their exercises in the Shannon FIR, they could.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes, they could. That is correct.

The IAA would have to make arrangements. As it is now being pushed out beyond SOTA, it is Shanwick's problem.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes, it is Shanwick's problem, so it predominantly becomes a UK matter. However, of course, because of the proximity of our boundary to that, they would be speaking to us on that.

Equally, the IAA have had to make sure that the aircraft it is routing through SOTA will not then impinge on the new rectangle, wherever that new rectangle happens to be.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Correct. We would manage that by looking at the different exit points from our airspace and perhaps closing those. We would segregate based on where they would be and you would keep your traffic well clear of it.

In terms of the unit rate, is it €45 per plane?

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is a flat fee to aircraft for the HF communications charge.

Is that through NOTA and SOTA?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Through the Shanwick region. Once they come into radar contact, what we have then is a unit rate, which is a little bit complicated. It is a rate, at the moment, of €29.15. Depending on the distance the aircraft flies within our airspace and the weight of the aircraft, we calculate a total charge on that. That is how we generate our revenue.

Therefore, more weight, more passengers and a fuller aircraft, will actually lead to more revenue than an aircraft during the pandemic that might have only had 20 or 30 passengers.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Exactly. That was why, we will say, following previous credit crunches and crashes, or perhaps after 9/11, one of the things that affected us hugely was many of the big aeroplanes went off the north Atlantic and they brought the size back down to the 757-type aircraft, which is much lighter than the 767, 777 or 747. Therefore, we had a depression in our revenue. We want to see the A380s and those big aeroplanes coming across. They are what generate the revenue for us.

I initially thought that with the unit charge, it does not matter if it is a big aeroplane or small aeroplane or whatever. The unit charge is a flat fee for a full or empty, large or small aircraft but then there is the other methodology. The fuller the aeroplane, the more passengers on it, the heavier it is, A380s all the way and the IAA is making more money. Is it significantly more money? Could it be double or triple the amount?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It is a significant difference. If we had an A380, we would probably generate €390 to €400 while it is within our airspace. If it took a longer track, we could get €600.

As for the aeroplanes that we see in the sky flying, particularly for Deputy Carey or Deputy Cathal Crowe who are watching these aeroplanes go out over their skyline past County Clare, the more of those that happen, the more the State, through the IAA, is picking up at a rate of €400 or €500 per aeroplane.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Absolutely. Mr. Peter Kavanagh runs the centre in Ballycasey, but we structure ourselves in such a way in Ballycasey that we adapt through the flow of traffic. We do not operate on a set number of sectors every day. We do not have ten air traffic controllers everyday, depending on what the traffic is. We look at what the flow of traffic is and plan that with the UK and Canadian air traffic services on a nightly basis. We then structure ourselves to match the traffic. It is very flexible.

Regardless of the weather, the jet streams and all the rest of it, IAA will still get the revenue because the aeroplanes will go up or down a little bit, but they will stay within NOTA, SOTA or Shannon FIR.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes.

Some 80% to 90% of transatlantic traffic goes through that.

Dr. Peter Kearney

It is 90%. By and large, that is right. We have had some unusual weather conditions where traffic has been pushed very far north. We have had a few of those, but the Senator is right. By and large, we are taking that traffic like Brown's cows, except out and home but, obviously, in a much more safety critical environment.

This is very useful. We have established that the level of activity could have been up to 37,000 ft, which was not a figure I was imagining the missiles would be going up as far as. That is, obviously, a huge concern for any aircraft. We have had, unfortunately, downing of aircraft in places such as Ukraine, as it happened, and others where aeroplanes were shot down.

This has been a very useful exercise. Perhaps at some point, we are possibly going to Shannon to meet the Shannon Group. Perhaps, if it is helpful, Dr. Kearney would be able to arrange a tour of the IAA facilities in the Shannon region generally.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Absolutely. I would be delighted to do so. I think the Senator would be fascinated to see and we would be delighted to introduce him to our colleagues in Shannon who are actually doing this work and let them show him what they do. In addition, Ballygirreen has a fascinating history. Ballygirreen was born when Morse code was important and aircraft were going into the Foynes Estuary. As for the role that Ballygirreen played then, in terms of the safety and transmission of weather information to flying boats crossing the north Atlantic, in many ways, it has come full circle, where Ballygirreen now operates the Aireon system that is saving lives all around the globe. I think the Senator would find it very interesting.

I am one of the few members of this committee who is not from the mid-west, but I have regularly mentioned Shannon, in terms of establishing duty free and Irish coffee. The history of Shannon is so central to world aviation. I think it would be very useful if we can include, as part of our trip to Shannon, a trip to see the IAA facilities.

I thank Dr. Kearney for the fact he is making €80 million of dividends to the State. I thank all of his staff, who are literally working 24-7, including Christmas Day and everything else, to keep our skies safe.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Just to add, I know the committee has met other people in relation to activities that it has oversight of, and it has discussed Omicron. For us, I can tell the committee that we had 19 colleagues affected by Covid in Christmas week. By the first week of January that was 49 people. That had a significant impact on us.

That is out of a total staff of how many?

Dr. Peter Kearney

In the IAA air navigation service provider, ANSP, we have 582 in total.

That is 10% of the staff.

Dr. Peter Kearney

I can tell the Chair that we did it through the work of our colleagues, the air traffic controllers and engineers.

I have never worked with a better bunch of people in that they do not view it as work; it is almost a vocation. We see that time and again and I want to pay tribute to them for how they responded. They covered shifts and duties and they were flexible and adaptable because they saw their role as making sure that Irish people abroad could be home for Christmas. Cargo of medicines continued to flow into the State and that is the perspective they take.

How many are out at the moment with Covid?

Dr. Peter Kearney

We have gone back down to about 12 thank God.

I will now look at flight radar in a slightly different way, knowing more about who is there. What the IAA does is appreciated by the country. I appreciate it and this has been a useful exercise.

I want to clarify one point before I go to Deputy Cathal Crowe. At the moment, the space that the IAA manages and controls is made up of the following three components. There is: the Shannon flight information region, FIR, which is under the jurisdiction of Ireland; the northern oceanic transition area, NOTA; and the Shannon oceanic transition area, SOTA, where the Russian exercise was proposed to take place. Are all three of those considered international airspace?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes.

That means the Russian Federation could have applied to do the exercise within the Shannon FIR?

Dr. Peter Kearney

They would have to stay outside territorial waters.

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

They would have to stay 12 nautical miles outside territorial waters.

Has there ever been a situation where applications were made to conduct exercises within the Shannon FIR?

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

Part of the joint American-UK exercise last year was in the Shannon FIR.

What was that for?

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

Military exercises. Part of it was in the Shannon FIR. It bordered NOTA, the Shanwick oceanic control area, OCA, and the Shannon FIR.

It bordered NOTA?

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

It bordered NOTA, the Shannon FIR and a portion of the Shanwick OCA.

Is that the NATO one?

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

Yes.

Dr. Peter Kearney

It is important to understand that the Defence Forces also has artillery ranges in the State. For example, the navy has one off Cork, the Air Corps has one around Gormanston and the Army has one in the Glen of Imaal. It is routine that they would activate those and conduct exercises.

In layman’s terms, what would 12 nautical miles be in actual miles?

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

About 15 miles.

About 15 miles outside the coast of Ireland along the western seaboard is regarded as international waters and any country can apply to carry out exercises within that zone.

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

To clarify, it is not an application.

Dr. Peter Kearney

They are notifications.

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

It is a notification that they will conduct exercises in a particular area at a particular time.

Within the NOTA and SOTA, they make that notification to the UK because it is UK jurisdiction and then the UK notifies the IAA. Within the Shannon FIR, is the IAA notified directly?

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

Yes.

I welcome Mr. Kavanagh and Dr. Kearney. At least one of them is a good Clare man and Dr. Kearney is as good as a Clare man.

I want to make some remarks about what Russia tried to do last week although I know the witnesses cannot really comment on it. I know our jurisdiction only goes to 12 nautical miles off the coast as was said. We are a neutral country but this is a case of the Russians trying to get one up on their old adversaries, the United States and the United Kingdom, by conducting these ballistic tests off the Irish coast. They have also done this in the past by bringing their Tupolev Tu-95 "Bear" bombers close to and into Irish airspace. The last time that happened was in 2019 if memory serves me correctly. There is a repeated pattern here in that every year or second year, the Russians undertake an activity, not so much to provoke Ireland but to send a message to our near neighbours, Britain, and our close friends in the United States. People say the fishermen took a stand, which they did and on which they have to be commended but the Minister for Foreign Affairs could and should have done a lot more on this. Rather than thanking the ambassador for his friendly withdrawal of this ballistics test, we should be far more robust as a nation. We should not always tip the cap to larger nations and be bullied in the schoolyard of geopolitics. The Russian exclusive economic zone is 7.5 million sq. km, which is colossal. Why in the name of God could they not have undertaken some of these test activities off their coastline and far away from us?

My colleague, Deputy Christopher O’Sullivan, from Cork explained to me recently that in that part of the Atlantic Ocean, there is a lot of submarine cabling. I know much of what the IAA does is in the realm of satellites but is there any submarine technology that offshore and transatlantic aviation is dependent on that could still be at risk from these ballistic tests being pushed further out to sea?

Dr. Peter Kearney

No. We are not using any subsea cables to conduct any of our air traffic control services. Everything we run is run from the west coast of Ireland using the secondary surveillance radar we have. Those are our tools and nothing under the sea feeds us.

It is a radio signal from Ballygirreen, satellite from Ballycasey and a combination of both.

Dr. Peter Kearney

It is predominantly secondary surveillance radar from a number of sites on the west coast.

The IAA and the European aviation authorities do not have any old and defunct submarine cabling that is in any way jeopardised?

Dr. Peter Kearney

No.

That is good. That question is probably for another committee but there is infrastructure down there, even as this exercise is pushed further out in the ocean. The ecology has been well-flagged in the media in recent times but there is critical submarine infrastructure that could still be at risk by this going out further. I do not know what committee we would address that in.

I want to ask about the Russian Tupolev Tu-95 bombers, "Bear" bombers as they are called. We have had incursions by these in the Irish airspace. When was the last one? I note that the Royal Air Force scrambles its Typhoon jets to intercept when that happens. Does the IAA sanction or have knowledge of either?

Dr. Peter Kearney

I will give some information on that Russian aircraft activity. That is also catered for under International Civil Aviation Organisation rules and it is a facility that is called “due regard”. We are dealing with civilian aircraft that are operating to ICAO standards, rules and regulations and the rules of the air. Military aircraft do not do that and they operate to their own rules and standards. They are entitled to operate in international airspace under this due regard principle. This means they operate visual flight rules, VFRs, in that they can see out the window. They will typically monitor the emergency frequency of 121.5 MHz and they will conduct their flights in a manner that is safe and takes due account and regard of civilian aircraft.

With many states it would be usual for us to be told that such activities are taking place. We have had the Russian Federation conducting these flights as the Deputy has outlined without establishing radio communications or displaying a transponder and we did not have any communications with them on those occasions.

Would the IAA be aware that this has happened?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes.

How would the IAA be aware?

Dr. Peter Kearney

We would be aware of that because that activity would be co-ordinated with us by the UK's National Air Traffic Services. It would most likely be informed by the UK military and it would then pass the information to us.

Is that an arrangement the IAA has with the UK?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It would be common to share information.

But it is not legally required to advise the IAA. If Russian military aircraft enters the Shannon FIR on a flight, is the UK legally required to inform the IAA that they are coming into that international space?

Dr. Peter Kearney

I would have to check if it is a legal requirement but sharing of information like that would be absolutely common and routine.

I do not mean it in that sense. If Russia was to carry out a naval exercise in the Shannon FIR, it would have been required under international law to notify the IAA as the authority with jurisdiction over the airspace there. If perchance a Russian aircraft was to fly into the same space, are they legally required to advise the IAA?

Dr. Peter Kearney

No. They are legally entitled under ICAO rules and regulations to operate under due regard. They can operate in international airspace. They do not have to speak to us. They have to conduct their flight in a way that keeps them safe from civilian aircraft. They do not have to file a flight plan like anybody else would. They do not do any of that.

For instance, if they wish to conduct exercises of a military nature on a naval boat in the Shannon FIR, which is under the jurisdiction of Ireland, they are required to notify the IAA.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes.

What determines the notification in that instance? Is it because it is a military exercise?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It is a military exercise and it is important to note that they are issuing armaments into the airspace. Whereas they will say these aircraft are only conducting flights, they make their own separation from everybody else.

Ultimately, if the transponder is not on, the IAA will not be able to detect that plane.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

I wish to continue on with my points of questioning. We accept that there are different rules for civil and military aviation. Perhaps this is not a matter on which the IAA can comment. We are in a right kerfuffle as a result of what Russia tried to do near our territory. However, RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire has on numerous occasions scrambled Typhoon jets and sent them close to or into Irish airspace to intercept Russian Tupolev Tu-95 "Bear" bombers. Neither action is acceptable. In the past month, we celebrated 100 years since the withdrawal of British armed forces from this country. If there is a Russian aircraft, that would be a problem but the British should not assume they can launch their aircraft at any time from an RAF base in Lincolnshire to fly through Irish airspace and intercept an aircraft off the Irish west coast. This is simply not acceptable. That merits further discussion on the body we are discussing. We are a neutral country. It is not acceptable for Britain or Russian forces to test their military equipment. Dr. Kearney wishes to comment.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes. To be absolutely precise and clear on this, I am not aware of UK military assets entering Irish airspace. I am certainly aware that they have entered NOTA airspace. As we referred to in our statement, NOTA is UK airspace. It is legitimate, therefore, to operate there. I am not aware of UK military assets entering Irish airspace.

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

That is correct. On an occasion such as this, they would track these aircraft to the boundary. They would inform us they are observing these aircraft at an estimated altitude of typically 26,000 ft to 27,000 ft. We would then become aware of them. At the boundary of the Shannon FIR, they would-----

In 2017 and 2019, RAF Typhoon jets were scrambled from RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire. Mr. Kavanagh is of the view they flew entirely in British airspace in order to come to the Irish west coast to intercept these "Bear" bombers. They did not at any time encroached into our airspace.

They never entered the Shannon FIR area.

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

That is correct. Typically, they would spot them crossing the top of Scotland and they would track them from there into the NOTA. At that point, they would inform us of "Bear" activity.

God help the civilians fly the United States to see an aunt or uncle while Britain and Russia play their little war games out at sea. I do not envy the IAA its job when these-----

If any military aircraft was to fly within the 12 nautical miles, or 15 miles, I assume it would be required to notify the IAA that it is flying within our territorial area.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

It is international airspace up to 12 nautical miles. Dr. Kearney is saying the RAF flew within NOTA and SOTA and did not enter airspace for which Ireland has sole jurisdiction.

Dr. Peter Kearney

If RAF aircraft wished to proceed further, it is our view that they would require diplomatic clearance from the Department of Foreign Affairs. That is how it would work.

That is reassuring.

If they moved into the Shannon, they would require diplomatic clearance.

Dr. Peter Kearney

On a normal basis, if this occurred we would not issue a clearance to permit that. We would not issue it without some sort of diplomatic clearance.

That is a very important point. Can international military aircraft fly into the Shannon FIR without advising IAA?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes, they can.

For what do they require clearance?

Dr. Peter Kearney

If they want to cross Irish territorial airspace.

That is inside 12 nautical miles.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes.

The last point I raise relates to the work of the IAA but slightly tangential to what we have been discussing so far. Many counties are developing their county development plants. In Government Buildings, a document is being prepared on wind energy guidelines. The witnesses may be wondering what this has to do with the Irish Aviation Authority. What happens in the sky falls within the realm of the IAA and is, therefore, of concern to it. It bothers me that the IAA, from what I can see, does not have a significant position on wind turbines, particularly those that are getting higher and higher. Some are being proposed that are more than twice the height of Big Ben in the middle of London.

In the mid-west, where the Chairman and I come from, a number of applications are being made for large wind turbines on Woodcock Hill and in the Clare hills, which are on the final approach to Shannon. The IAA needs to be vigilant about this because it has a radar station on Woodcock Hill, only 500 m from where I grew up. Something of real concern to me occurred about two years ago. I used to fly out of Coonagh. I was a member of the Limerick Flying Club. A member of the club wrote a piece for The Clare Champion, which also appeared in the Limerick Leader, describing how he was flying from Castletroy towards Coonagh and as he got close to Vistakon, where there is a large private wind turbine - I note for the record that I have no problem with that - a wave of turbulence hit the side of his plane and threw him from the harness. He was jolted around the plane. Until that point, he believed wind turbines were just a feature in the countryside and produced only minor turbulence. Since then, he has been petrified of flying anywhere in the vicinity of wind turbines. It behoves the Irish Aviation Authority to come up with a policy position and some research, not next year or the year after but now, taking a strong position on wind turbines. Yes, they are a critical part of green infrastructure. This is not a case of NIMBYism or "not in my back yard" but there are certain places in the country, including within 6 km of the final approach of an international airport, where it is not appropriate for wind turbines to be placed on hilltops competing with the IAA's infrastructure. The IAA may not have the answers today, but I ask that it take a position, loud and clear, and input it to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the local authorities in Clare and Limerick. There must be no equivocation about this. It must be crystal clear where the IAA stands on this matter.

Dr. Peter Kearney

I assure the Deputy that we have a process and procedure in place internally in the organisation. When we are notified of a construction of that nature we undertake an analysis of its impact. From our point of view, Mr. Kavanagh and I would be very concerned in the context of interference with our radar facility, such as on Woodcock Hill, as pointed out by the Deputy. On the other side of the organisation, in the context of safety regulation, we will pass on Deputy Crowe's comments about his colleague who experienced turbulence in the small aircraft. That is absolutely relevant and we will do that for him.

I was in Ballygirreen on the day the IAA launched the Aireon ALERT service. I was the mayor of Clare at the time. It is a fantastic facility. Many people who use the motorway while travelling through Clare have no idea of what special operations are taking place in the facility. Dr. Kearney might tell the committee approximately how many accidents it has prevented and in how many accidents it has been able to identify wreckage, if he knows that off the top of his head. I know a key ability of the service is that it can, within an accurate range, identify where a plane is on Earth.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Rarely a week passes in which there is not an intervention by my colleagues in Ballygirreen which results in either the location of a wreckage being identified, with perhaps a deceased person on board or someone's life being saved. It is as regular as that. We are extremely proud of the facility and the work my colleagues are doing in it. Among senior management there, Sean Patrick in particular is playing a major role in ensuring we push forward Aireon and we take it further across the globe. He continues to advocate in for us in ICAO and the International Air Transport Association, IATA, in relation to the use of Aireon data. It is groundbreaking technology. Perhaps we will show the Deputy's colleagues how the facility works if they wish to visit.

I thank Dr. Kearney for that.

We very much welcome the cancellation of the planned Russian exercise. It has generated public interest in this whole area. I commend Mr. Kearney on his great work.

I have a couple of questions. Returning to the IAA submission, it states: "Although the Russian Federation has indicated that planned exercise would be moved and so the original airspace restrictions have been cancelled, we need to remain alert that the exercises could take place at a new location, outside of our area of responsibility but in an area that could impact our operation."

I ask that he address that point. As a layman looking at the map included in the submission, I understand the Shannon FIR to be the sole jurisdiction of Ireland and the IAA. Although everything beyond 12 nautical miles is international waters and countries are entitled to do military exercises in them, the authority must be notified directly. The NOTA and SOTA effectively belong to the UK but it has appointed the IAA as the air traffic management body.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes.

When the Russian exercise was to take place in SOTA, Russia advised the UK, as it is its jurisdiction, and it subsequently advised the IAA.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes.

Outside that is the Shanwick area, which is much bigger. What is the authority's role there? Does it have any role in the management of that airspace?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Our role there is communications. We provide communications with all the aircraft within that airspace. We message between ourselves and Prestwick for the control instructions, so we have a radio communications role in that airspace.

What is the difference between the authority's role there and in NOTA and SOTA?

Dr. Peter Kearney

The difference is our only responsibility in that airspace is communications. The separation of aircraft is done from Prestwick.

Therefore, if the Russian Federation decided to do the exercise outside SOTA in the Shanwick area, would the authority have any role?

Dr. Peter Kearney

No. I think we would-----

The Russian Federation would have to advise the UK.

Dr. Peter Kearney

The UK, yes. The UK would advise us but we would not be controlling any aircraft in that area. We would be effectively complying with whatever restrictions the UK would put in place.

In that case I return to the statement in Dr. Kearney's submission: "Although the Russian Federation has indicated that planned exercise would be moved and so the original airspace restrictions have been cancelled, we need to remain alert that the exercises could take place at a new location, outside of our area of responsibility but in an area that could impact our operation." Will Dr. Kearney elaborate on that and tell us why the IAA continues to remain alert? How could this unfold and what would be the implications for Irish airspace? Clearly, the Russian Federation was proposing to fire missiles up to 11 km in the air, which is about 37,000 ft, and some aircraft could be flying at that altitude. The IAA decided no aircraft whatever would be allowed in that area. What concerns does Dr. Kearney's still have? How will this unfold? How will the IAA manage such an activity? Dr. Kearney might address those. It is what the public would be interested in hearing.

Dr. Peter Kearney

I would be delighted to do so. If we take the red box that is sitting in SOTA, there was much talk in the media, although I do not know how accurate it was, that the box would be pushed further south-west and perhaps outside of SOTA. We could have-----

In layman's terms, SOTA is south-west of us. It is off the coast of Cork and Kerry.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Exactly. If that red box-----

Roughly how far from Ireland was the red box?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It was 240 km away.

I see. The exercises were very near the edge of Shanwick in that case. How many miles was it to the border?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It was around 50 to 70 nautical miles from it.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Our concern was they would push outside the EEZ but ultimately just-----

On the EEZ, where is it on the map supplied in the submission?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It is to the north-east of the red box.

If we take the line around SOTA, does the EEZ coincide with that perimeter?

Dr. Peter Kearney

No, it would not.

It is wider.

Dr. Peter Kearney

It is wider, yes. The concern for us would be that the red box would go outside the boundary of SOTA.

That would then continue into Ireland's exclusive economic zone?

Dr. Peter Kearney

No, it would be just outside SOTA where we have radar coverage and aircraft. Our concern was that we would no longer have responsibility for separation of aircraft there but we-----

Before Dr. Kearney deals with that point, I will go back a little. Dr. Kearney spoke about the EEZ. Will he elaborate on that?

Dr. Peter Kearney

We do not actually deal in EEZs. We would not have it on any of our charts or maps, but-----

Does the EEZ go well beyond where SOTA is?

Dr. Peter Kearney

No, I do not think it does.

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

It stops short.

Dr. Peter Kearney

It stops short of SOTA.

Was the area the Russians were proposing to use on the edge of the EEZ?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes, it was.

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

From our information, it was close to the edge of it, yes.

SOTA then, is slightly further out.

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

Yes.

What was the IAA's concern?

Dr. Peter Kearney

The talk in the media generally was that this red box would go slightly further south-west.

Outside SOTA.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Just outside SOTA.

It would also be in Shanwick, which falls under the responsibility of the UK.

Dr. Peter Kearney

However, it is in such close proximity to SOTA and us that we would likely have had to close some of the boundary points for aircraft operations there to prevent them from transiting right into it.

What is the process? Has the IAA had any communications either directly from the Russian Federation or the UK, which has jurisdiction over Shanwick, on what Russia is proposing and when it will take place?

Dr. Peter Kearney

We have not had any further communications from the Russian Federation. We have daily contact with our colleagues in the UK, NATS Holdings. They have not been advised of any aerial activity but when the NOTAM for this activity was cancelled-----

That is the notice that would have come out. The Minister, Deputy Coveney, will have received a letter from the Russian Federation and the ambassador on 29 January, which was a Saturday.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

The authority was then notified on-----

Dr. Peter Kearney

On 31 January.

By whom?

Dr. Peter Kearney

By the UK.

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

Directly by the UK.

Dr. Peter Kearney

We followed up with the UK because we had some questions in relation to it. Some queries were made and the information that came back was that the next part of this exercise would be what is called a seagoing exercise. It made no reference at all-----

What does "seagoing" mean in this context?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Our understanding is that it is just naval vessel activity and that there would not be any-----

Missiles.

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

Correct.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is our understanding, Chairman.

When will this be clarified?

Dr. Peter Kearney

We will continue on our lane-----

How recently was that communication from the authority's equivalent in the UK, NATS, which is the management authority for airspace in the UK? How recently did it communicate this to the IAA?

Dr. Peter Kearney

That was on Tuesday.

Two days ago.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Exactly.

NATS communicated with the IAA. Had it been formally communicated to NATS that it was to be a naval exercise only?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes. It went to NATS and it informed us that the exercise was becoming a seagoing exercise.

Has NATS been formally advised by the Russian Federation of that point?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes. That was the response to the NOTAM.

Does Dr. Kearney know on what date that will take place?

Dr. Peter Kearney

I do not.

What procedure will the IAA put in place? What concerns does it continue to have and what procedures will it seek to put in place?

Dr. Peter Kearney

We have no procedures to put in place for the moment because we are not aware of any activity or location. We continue to remain vigilant in case there is a further notification for some airspace activity. We also continue to be vigilant about the matter Deputy Cathal Crowe raised about Russian aircraft perhaps entering the airspace with no notification. We pay attention to that.

On the IAA's current radar capability, if we have Russian aircraft, or any aircraft from any country for that matter, entering NOTA, SOTA or the Shanwick FIR, the authority has no way of picking it up unless the transponder is on in the aircraft. That is unless the UK informs the authority that it has taken place.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Correct.

I will lead from that. Has the IAA made submissions to the Commission on the Defence Forces? Do we need, as a country, to look at primary radar that allows us to detect planes without transponders being on?

Dr. Peter Kearney

In the context of the activity, the rarity and the matter in which it is catered for under ICAO rules and standards, I am not sure we do. We made a submission on defence in which we recommended it may be of use from a defence perspective. From the civil aviation perspective, we would not derive value from that. I would find it very difficult to construct a business case on that.

That is despite the IAA overseeing safety of civilian aircraft.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

If any sort of military aircraft enters the airspace it manages and the IAA is unable to pick it up, does it not cause concern?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It does not for a number of reasons.

It does or it does not.

Dr. Peter Kearney

It does not. First, countries are entitled to conduct those flights under international civil aviation rules and regulations, and that is what they do. Second, we would be aware of the altitude at which they are operating and it would be at a level that does not affect civil operations.

At what altitude would they typically operate?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It would be 24,000 ft or lower.

They operate at 24,000 ft or lower. What is that in layman's terms?

Dr. Peter Kearney

They are at 24,000 ft.

At what altitude are civilian aircraft?

Dr. Peter Kearney

They would be well above that. They operate at 30,000 ft, 32,000 ft or 34,000 ft, for example.

How does the IAA know the aircraft in question only operate at 24,000 ft?

Dr. Peter Kearney

When these aircraft come from bases in Russia, there is a NATO Baltic policing activity involving fighter aircraft effectively shadowing the aircraft all the way. They communicate with the UK, which advises us. When the flight crew comes within our range, it also advises us and gives us that information.

Any military aircraft coming into the Shanwick area automatically advises the UK.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Typically, they are UK assets and speak to the UK.

Could Dr. Kearney explain that? If a military plane leaves Russia and flies to the Irish-controlled or managed airspace, what is the process? He said another aircraft flies with them. Will he explain that in layman's terms?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes. Our experience of this is the planes depart some base in Russia and come into European or perhaps NATO member airspace. NATO will respond in some way and send another aircraft to shadow these Russian aircraft. The Russian aircraft will not speak to anybody, although we would be quite sure they are listening. Those other aircraft, which are "friendly", for want of a better word, will communicate what is going on to us. We would be updated and our situational awareness would be enhanced as a result.

Going back to my original question, is Dr. Kearney satisfied, based on communications received from the UK aviation authority, that the exercise being carried out by Russia will not involve any military aircraft and will just involve the naval fleet? Is he satisfied that is the case?

Dr. Peter Kearney

We have no information to suggest otherwise.

That was communicated to the IAA on Tuesday. That manoeuvre will take place quite near the boundary of SOTA?

Dr. Peter Kearney

This is anecdotal and media speculation so-----

Would the UK not have been advised by the Russian Federation as to where this exercise will take place?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It would only have been advised if there was to be more aerial activity. If this involves seagoing or naval ships, we would not get any advice on it.

Are the authorities required to notify the country controlling the airspace when the exercise has seagoing or naval activity?

Dr. Peter Kearney

No.

They can enter the waters. Could they enter NOTA or SOTA? If a military naval ship is not doing a military exercise and comes to NOTA, SOTA or even the Shannon area, is it required to notify the IAA?

Dr. Peter Kearney

No, not in the case of naval activity.

This is relevant because missiles are to be fired. One might appreciate they go very high into the air where aircraft would fly. We applaud the IAA's work. What is the next part of the process to get closure on this for the IAA on behalf of the Irish State and its people?

Dr. Peter Kearney

As far as we are concerned, it is closed. We have received a note on cancelling the proposed activity and unless we receive more advice from the UK or something from the Russian Federation, which we do not anticipate at this point, this is closed.

I thank the IAA for its work. This is a very complicated area but the general public has new information that the IAA was notified on Tuesday by the UK aviation authority that it had been informed by the Russian Federation that the exercise would only involve naval activity and there would be no military aircraft activity. That is to be welcomed. We would prefer if no form of activity took place but it is what it is. This is about looking after the security of our airspace. At this stage, Dr. Kearney regards the matter as closed.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes. We have cancelled the note affecting Irish airspace. This morning we had southerly tracks for aircraft routing to North America through SOTA and it was absolutely normal operation.

Today is 2 February and the exercise was to commence tomorrow.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Correct.

It will be kept under constant surveillance.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Absolutely.

I thank Dr. Kearney and his staff for that work. We look forward to visiting the facilities, which are quite near to me in Limerick.

I thank the witnesses for attending. It has been an interesting couple of weeks for the IAA with the proposed military exercises off the west coast. Everyone would agree it was worrying.

There must be a degree of reality in the argument in Ireland. This involves a major world power, and arguably one of the top five military powers in the world, with many hundreds of times the military equivalent of Ireland. That has exposed a number of weaknesses we must deal with. First and foremost of these concerns the area of radar detection, and I have a couple of questions in that regard. To explain the very basics for those who are not fully aware, there is a civilian and military radar for the detection of aircraft. Is that correct?

Dr. Peter Kearney

There are several types of radar. There is maritime radar, civilian aircraft radar and there would be-----

How many of those does the IAA have? Does it have maritime radar?

Dr. Peter Kearney

No. We only have radar used for the detection of civil aircraft.

Right. What about military aircraft? I am not talking about objects such as a test missile but perhaps Russian aircraft entering the Irish economic zone. Does the IAA have any means of detecting those aircraft if they turn off transponders? The answer is "No", is it not?

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct. We operate primary radars, which would give capacity for that, but they have short range. They are only in a number of locations. They have a very specific purpose, which is to aid and assist aircraft landing at State airports.

I appreciate and understand that. I suppose the question is from a safety perspective. This is purely about passenger safety because I do not want to go too much into military side. Is there not a bit of concern in that regard? I know it would not be within the remit of the IAA but should the Department of Defence look at investing in this technology?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It is beyond our remit to comment on what the Department of Defence or perhaps the Defence Forces should do. We have outlined our perspective over the past hour or so. In any act of firing in airspace, the Russian Federation complies fully with the international civil aviation organisational obligations.

I do not want to go too much into that, which relates to missile testing or surveying cables. We do not know what it is up to. On the detection of military aircraft, it is concerning that we do not know what is in our airspace. It is not an unjustified concern. As Deputy Crowe mentioned, we must potentially rely on British intelligence and its defence infrastructure to inform us what is going on in our own airspace. That is quite concerning. Dr. Kearney has said there were no encroachments of which we are aware. Viewed purely from a safety perspective, it is something we should probably examine. It would not be unjustified for Dr. Kearney to remark on that.

I am not trying to bounce anyone into getting themselves into trouble with the Department of Defence but is it an area that needs to be looked at?

Dr. Peter Kearney

I am not an expert in defence matters at all. It would be very improper of me to speculate or remark on it. Routine military aircraft operations operate with their transponder on. We provide a normal service to them as we do with any other passenger airline. On occasion aircraft will come in. They may avail of the ICAO provision which permits due regard. They will operate that flight according to their own rules, taking account of civilian aircraft operations and remaining clear of those. That is perfectly legitimate according to the International Civil Aviation Organisation. Ireland is a contracting state of the ICAO so we have to operate within its rules and regulations.

While I agree - we do not like to see it - it is catered for within -----

What does due regard mean in layman's terms?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It means that the military aircraft operate to their own rules and regulations. They operate in VFR, visual flight rules, or in other words they are not flying in cloud. They have to be above cloud and have to be able to see what is around them. On most occasions -----

They are not above cloud.

Dr. Peter Kearney

No, they would be above cloud so that they can see what is going on around them. They have their own systems on board the aircraft for detecting where other aircraft are. They monitor the emergency frequency typically and we transmit on that. Sometimes they will answer. The Russians do not tend to but other aircraft will answer us. That is a way of communicating.

Some aircraft that do due regard from other countries will keep the transponder on. That will allow us to see them which is very useful. It is catered for in our processes, procedures and safety analysis and it is allowed under international agreement. From our perspective, it is relatively routine.

In the point I was making I did not really go too much into that. My point was more that if an unidentified aircraft was travelling through Irish airspace, our sovereign territory, then the IAA cannot detect that. That is a reality. I am not criticising the IAA. That is not its responsibility, I accept that, but it is a hole that we need to fill. It is a very basic anomaly. It should be an urgent priority for our own airspace that we would be able to detect what is in it. We do not know unless the British tell us what is coming through our own airspace. It is technically feasible that we could have stealth aircraft being transferred from the United States to the UK mainland, such as a B-2 stealth bomber, that could fly through Irish airspace and the IAA would not even know about it. I am not complaining. I am just making a point that the lack of such a defence capability for a neutral country in a world where there are growing tensions is a hole that needs to be filled.

How much does it cost to implement a new radar facility for civilian aircraft?

Dr. Peter Kearney

I do not have that off the top of my head but I will -----

Is there an approximate cost?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It would be in excess of €100 million.

And for military radar?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It would be multiples of that. I think some of those very powerful primary radars for defence purposes could be in excess of €200 million.

That is interesting. Would a military-style radar be able to detect a missile launch or would that be something more advanced?

Dr. Peter Kearney

I could not answer that. I would not know the answer. I am not familiar with military radar systems.

There have been incidents that have never been proven that could have happened in the past in Irish airspace where that was an issue. That is the reason for my question. Purely from a safety perspective, I am not happy that the Irish Government is not able to detect foreign military aircraft in our own airspace if their transponders are off. That is a huge hole that needs to be filled before we even start having conversations about purchasing interceptors which I have heard a lot of discussion about over the last week. That is why I was anxious to put those questions to Dr. Kearney.

In general, I commend the work the IAA is doing. A lot of good work is being done. In Cork, we are happy to see the airport more open. I wish it continued success.

Can I take up one point? Why is it not mandatory that transponders be left on? It strikes me, as a layman looking at this, that it would solve this. If we take out military aircraft entering our airspace, which I would be unhappy with like anyone else, it would be obvious to make it internationally mandatory to keep the transponder on. It would be a major benefit.

Dr. Peter Kearney

It is mandatory. All civilian aircraft will keep their transponders on.

But what about military aircraft?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Military aircraft operate to different rules. When operating a normal aircraft, as it were, in our airspace they absolutely have the transponder turned on and we provide the normal service like everybody else. However, for some other activities, where we would not have any idea what they are at and they would not want one to know where they are, they will turn it off.

Are they breaching international law by not having the transponder on?

Dr. Peter Kearney

No, they are not.

They are not.

Dr. Peter Kearney

No.

We welcome the clarity. When will the formal confirmation come from the Russian Federation on what will be a purely naval exercise with no military aspect, no missiles, and its time and location? When will that be absolutely notified? What is the process?

Dr. Peter Kearney

I could not honestly answer that.

We are relying on the UK on informing the IAA. I am not in any way questioning that.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes.

Obviously, there is a formal process there where they have the notified statements. What do you call them -----

Dr. Peter Kearney

NOTAM, notice to airmen.

NOTAM. In layman's terms they are notifications of an exercise. When will we know categorically, legally, that the Russian Federation will say what it is doing, where it is doing it and what date it will be taking place?

Dr. Peter Kearney

I can only answer in terms of aeronautical and air-traffic management. As far as we are concerned it has cancelled that aeronautical activity. What other activity it takes from a naval perspective we will hear nothing about. If we track backwards -----

The IAA was just informed by the UK that on foot of the cancellation that it was informed of on 31 January, which was Monday, yet in a subsequent telephone conversation with the UK agency, NATS, it indicated that it understands from the Russian Federation that it will now be just a naval ship exercise. There is no military aspect in terms of missiles and the IAA expects it will be somewhere near the edge of SOTA, the Shannon oceanic transition area?

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

That was all verbal.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is our understanding.

The IAA got nothing in writing. In that case the UK was not actually legally obliged to inform the IAA about that.

Dr. Peter Kearney

No, because there is no impact on aeronautical activity.

With the technology that the IAA has now, the primary radar system, if transponders are on, can it detect everywhere within Shannon FIR, NOTA, the Northern oceanic transition area, the SOTA and beyond? How far can it detect?

Dr. Peter Kearney

We can detect everything in Shannon FIR, NOTA and SOTA.

Beyond that?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Beyond that we do not have radar coverage. It is beyond the limit. We are very much at the limit of the radar.

So the IAA has coverage there?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes.

If the IAA brought in a radar system, spending €100 million or €200 million, what would that bring? Dr. Kearney's expertise is in aircraft. What would that bring?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It would provide a capacity to see targets that do not display a transponder. But radars are extremely complicated. We run a network of these. We have to connect them all together. It creates a mosaic. We will show it to the Chairman when he is in Shannon. It would not be as simple as buying one radar. I imagine that one would need a number of these -----

Then can I pose a question: at any stage has the IAA detected military aircraft with transponders on in the aircraft area that it controls?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes we have.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes, we have.

Who were they? What were they? When were they?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Since 2017, we would have had 145 such flights of which 133 were either UK or US. Seven flights were French and the remaining five were Russian Federation aircraft.

None of those flights entered Irish territorial waters. They all stayed beyond the 12 mile limit. There was no impact on civil aircraft operations. At all times we assured the safety of aircraft that we had at the time and we provided traffic information to the flight crews and updated them.

Did any of those aircraft inform the IAA before they flew into Irish airspace, or were they all picked up on radar systems?

Dr. Peter Kearney

We had no notification but they indicated to us by using the transponder and then they spoke to us.

That is since 2017.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

There were 145 in total. Is there a breakdown per year?

Dr. Peter Kearney

I do not have it to hand but we can supply it.

Roughly, are the numbers increasing?

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

I would not say they are increasing in frequency. We can supply the committee with that information.

A radar system would ensure all aircraft could be picked up. If an aircraft was picked up on the radar system with a transponder, and it had not notified the IAA previously, what procedures would be kicked into gear to ensure civilian aircraft were not compromised?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Once aircraft notify us, typically by turning on the transponder, we will establish radio communication with them and find out what their intentions are. We will then know if they want to climb or descend or what they intend to do. Once we know what they are doing, we separate everything else from around that. They are coming in with due regard so they do not want to run into a civilian aircraft either.

That transponder is picked up as the aircraft enter SOTA, NOTA or Shannon, whichever they hit first.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct. We will get them from the very edge of the boundary of that chart.

Am I correct in saying that 90% of transatlantic traffic flies through the general area the IAA controls, namely, SOTA, NOTA and Shannon, at some point in time?

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct. The shortest distance between Europe and the United States is just south of Cork. That track will bring you-----

Around 90% of worldwide transatlantic traffic cuts across the south-west coast of Ireland.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

That is within the area the IAA controls and manages. Would they mostly go through SOTA, NOTA, or Shannon?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It would be either because aircraft conduct their flights depending on where the jet stream wind is. When they are coming from America they want to be in the jet stream and have the wind pushing them and when they are going back to America they want to avoid it because they do not want the headwinds. They will plan their flights depending on where the jet stream and that varies on a day-to-day basis and moves north and south. That is how it works.

At peak, roughly how many flights a day were passing through that airspace?

Dr. Peter Kearney

There would have been maybe 1,700 on a good day in 2019. When things were good in Dublin we would do 700 to 800 in a day.

That is 400,000 or 500,000 flights a year.

Dr. Peter Kearney

In a good year we would have 1.2 million flights.

We will follow up on the primary radar issue. The Russian ambassador is due before another committee shortly and we will follow that with interest and seek clarification on that point about where the naval fleet will be, rather than missiles. Is Dr. Kearney happy that, even though it is a naval ship, the IAA has no requirement to take any sort of safety measures around that zone?

Dr. Peter Kearney

We were interested on the basis that the federation provided a notice to our men of an activity within the airspace. In the absence of that, we are satisfied.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. Things have changed with regard to the IAA's operational capacity and who it is dealing with. Dr. Kearney referred to the EU's ATM network. I ask him to elaborate on some of its workings. There were incursions into what has been stated as being Irish airspace by Russian aircraft in March 2020. Is that correct?

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

I know this is not what was intended but British forces did not leave Ireland completely 100 years ago. I just want to put that on the record, although I do not want to over-egg it. The Russian aircraft were followed by British aircraft. Dr. Kearney already stated that some of this information is coming from the British military so we lack the capacity in relation to primary radar. That is as it is. That should be rectified and we need a wider conversation around that. What is the interaction in those situations? What sort of information are we given? People have spoken about the danger element. What sort of difficulties does it create for the IAA?

Dr. Peter Kearney

I am a little unclear. Is the Deputy asking about aircraft operating with no transponders?

I assume that was the situation in these cases. Are we talking about aircraft that were operating without transponders?

Dr. Peter Kearney

We have had situations where aircraft have operated within airspace that we control, although not territorial airspace, without transponders. To reiterate, that is completely legitimate in the context of international civil aviation organisation rules and regulations. They can conduct a flight like that. Of course, we would prefer that they would establish communications with us so we could understand what they were doing but they are not required to do so. In such cases, they conduct the flight at flight levels that do not create any safety issues for civilian aircraft. In all the instances we have had, there has been no impact on the safety of civilian aircraft. They have conducted themselves at a much lower level than the civilian aircraft would be at so there has been no safety issue for us as a result.

These cases are separate from the four instances in the recent past that Dr. Kearney spoke about. How many incidents have there been where the IAA discovered the presence of Russians or others on the basis of being told via the British military?

Dr. Peter Kearney

We do not get the information from the British military. We get it from UK analysis-----

You get it from-----

Dr. Peter Kearney

I am not sure where they get it from. These are known as due regards. Since 2017, we have had 145 due regard flights. They are flights that have entered our area of operations and have not provided us any information in advance. The majority of those-----

Is that the same figure as the number of aircraft that had transponders on?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes.

That is pure coincidence.

Dr. Peter Kearney

It is a combination. The likes of UK, US and French aircraft are most likely to operate with their transponders on.

The figure given for aircraft with the transponder on was 145 in total. That is 133 from the UK, seven French and five Russian.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes.

Does Dr. Kearney have figures for aircraft that did not have transponders on, were not detected, and about which we were informed by the UK authorities?

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is purely the Russian activity.

How many were there?

Dr. Peter Kearney

We had five.

Since when?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Since 2017.

In what years did that occur?

Dr. Peter Kearney

There was one in 2017, three in 2020 and one in 2021.

They were purely Russian aircraft.

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is correct.

That creates a difficulty. What does the IAA do after these incidents occur? Does it just deal with it on the day and it is recorded? Is there some communication that has to go through diplomatic channels back to the Russian Federation?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Tactically, the first job is to ensure the safety of the civilian aircraft in the vicinity. What is going on back in the organisation is a standard process of information we have supplied to the Department of Transport, which is our parent Department. I could not say what happens from there but I am quite sure that it then goes further within Government.

Has the IAA put in a request to the effect that this is not what it wants to be dealing with? These cases create a headache on the day and there is a danger element to them.

Dr. Peter Kearney

It is a standard operational procedure. In the same way we would much prefer not to have had to deal with the notification earlier in the week about firing missiles, it is a notification that happens and, because this is catered for under international law, Russia is entitled to do it.

Would it be fair to say that there were five cases in which the transponders were not on and 145 in which they were on over the same period? Outside of that, does Dr. Kearney think any aircraft flew through the Irish-controlled aircraft area without its transponder on, totally undetected?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It is virtually impossible to say, but I would not believe so. The likes of the UK, the US and France always inform us as to what they are doing within the airspace. This is one entity that does not. Could it have not informed us such that an aircraft was not detected? I do not think that could happen, considering the long way they have to come and the other states that would spot them along the way and pass on information.

Most countries' aircraft have their transponders on.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes.

Virtually all.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes. They put them on when they come in and talk to us and give us information.

According to the IAA, the only cases of transponders being off have involved Russian aircraft-----

Dr. Peter Kearney

Correct.

-----and that information has come from the UK authority.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes, and it only came from the UK authority because the UK is our nearest neighbour. The information comes all the way through. The UK is told by Denmark, perhaps, which is probably told by another country further along. That is how it works.

If investment of €100 million or €200 million were made in the primary radar system, would that improve the IAA's capability in dealing with civilian aircraft in the area it controls? The IAA's primary purpose is safety. Would such funding assist the authority in that role?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Not particularly. The secondary surveillance radar we operate gives us full capacity for all the airspace in which we operate.

That is with transponders on.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Correct. Over a number of years, five aircraft complying fully with international obligations does not create a safety issue for us. It is uncomfortable, we do not like it and we would prefer them to conduct themselves in a different way, but they are not doing anything that they are not entitled to do, so long as they stay away from our territorial waters.

In some of these cases it looks like there is a scrambling exercise out of Britain. Those aircraft are travelling with transponders on. Do they inform the IAA that this is happening? I imagine they tell the IAA that Russian aircraft are overflying and that they will follow them. Is that the case?

Dr. Peter Kearney

We get communication from, as I said, the UK NATS, the air traffic control-----

Dr. Peter Kearney

That is our point of contact. It will tell us there is a military response in respect of unidentified traffic, and then the traffic will be identified by the military, which will tell NATS. NATS will tell us and then plot the traffic along the top of Scotland and wherever it goes then.

At no point has anyone come into our airspace.

Dr. Peter Kearney

No. UK assets will enter NOTA, which is UK airspace, but will never come into the Shannon FIR. They never have. They typically turn around at the boundary and go off. The unidentified traffic - or identified traffic if it is identified at that point - will track along at its level.

How far did those 145 aircraft come in? They obviously did not come beyond 12 nautical miles. Did they come into the Shannon area that the IAA covers?

Dr. Peter Kearney

No. Typically, they are very careful. We had one yesterday, if I may explain it. He came in at the top left of NOTA, went on a diagonal down-----

What nationality was that?

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

American, I believe.

An aircraft came in.

Dr. Peter Kearney

He came in. He went to the top of NOTA and then diagonally down to SOTA and then transited through SOTA. They stay away but they operate in the airspace.

Had that aircraft informed the IAA?

Dr. Peter Kearney

It did not inform us but it provided-----

Its transponder was on.

Dr. Peter Kearney

The transponder was on and it established communication, so we knew what it was doing.

How far out did the IAA pick him up? In that case, the aircraft flew from SOTA. Did he fly across the top end of the Shannon zone?

Dr. Peter Kearney

No. He came in at the top of NOTA, went down on a diagonal, staying clear of the Shannon FIR, and went into SOTA airspace.

Of the 145, how many entered the Irish jurisdiction area, specifically the Shannon flight information region?

Dr. Peter Kearney

I do not have that detail to hand. I can get it-----

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

We can supply that information. Typically, the French remain in SOTA and the UK and the Americans, predominantly, are in NOTA.

Those are just the flight paths they use.

Mr. Peter Kavanagh

Yes.

The number that come into the Shannon flight information region is minimal.

Dr. Peter Kearney

I will get that figure for the Chairman.

I thank Dr. Kearney. In the main, do they stay within the UK jurisdiction areas in the airspace that is managed by the IAA on behalf of the UK?

Dr. Peter Kearney

Yes.

As for military flights, transports and operations, under how much under pressure has the IAA been put over the years, in circumstances which, as was said, are anything between uncomfortable to possible danger? It is a question of how much of this is going on overall and what needs to be addressed. We are still susceptible to it. I get that primary radar gives us the capacity only to see rather than to do.

Dr. Peter Kearney

This is not a significant issue of concern for us at all.

Military or civilian - not a problem.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Absolutely. It is routine. We have processes and procedures in order to deal with it when it arises. We train our people to be able to manage it when they encounter it and, as I said, it is catered for under International Civil Aviation Organization rules and regulations, so it is just part of the environment in which we operate.

I wish to go to a Member who has not spoken. I call on Deputy Matthews.

I apologise: I was running between the meeting of the finance committee and this meeting. I have picked up some information. I thank the witnesses for attending. I have found the session very interesting and have learned a great deal about aviation, especially across that part of our airspace that I was not aware of. I have only one question. This incident, or proposed incident or training or whatever it is that went on, generated massive media attention, which we are all aware of, but have things like this gone on in the past that we may not have been aware of because Russia was not in the news for other reasons? Was this completely new to the IAA and was it the first time it ever had to deal with it?

Is the Deputy talking about Russia mainly?

Yes. Sorry. The meeting may have moved on. Dr. Kearney stated that a notice had been issued, the incident was finished, as far as the IAA was concerned, and there is nothing more to worry about. However, have incidents such as these happened in the past that we as the general public may not have been aware of?

The witnesses might respond in the context of Russia and other countries.

Dr. Peter Kearney

I thank Deputy Matthews for the question. Again, this type of activity is routine. Our Defence Forces have capacity to do this and have their own segregated areas, so we are well used to that. In the context of other nations conducting activity like this, as long as I have been in the job, which is more than 20 years, it has been a feature of life for us. We were not in any way surprised by this incident. It did not cause the organisation to get in any way excited. We simply applied the processes and procedures we have put in place over many years, which are tried and trusted, and we approached this in the very same way as any other activity. Activity, whether naval exercises or aircraft operating back and forth in the north Atlantic, regardless of the nationality, is very routine for us, so this did not generate any-----

It was the fist Russian exercise.

Dr. Peter Kearney

Absolutely. It was the first in our living memory but it was very similar to the way others have carried out such activity.

It was the first Russian one, but what nationalities do we normally see acting in this area and carrying out similar exercises? Are we talking about the UK and the US? Where does it normally come from?

The witnesses have already highlighted this. They might give the information again to the Deputy.

Dr. Peter Kearney

There have been military exercises. For example, there is the Russian exercise that we are discussing today. In 2021, there was the UK-NATO exercise in airspace controlled by Ireland. Also in 2021, the French military undertook an exercise in SOTA. As far back as August 2017, a NATO exercise was conducted. Over the past five years we have had four experience of this type of activity. We simply segregate civilian aircraft from the activity, we remove any risk to those and ensure their safety, and we continue as normal.

The IAA is well established and well organised. While this is not routine, it is not something that caught the IAA on the hop. The IAA had processes and procedures in place for notifying pilots and airlines. What we do not have - this is what concerns me - is a process to address the communications cables issue. This was raised also by others, and I mentioned it last week. I knew that aviation would be able to manage and look after itself, and, to a certain extent, the fishing groups are well organised. The communications cables, however, are a concern and part of it is the threat to the communications cables. Another sector that has little or no representation is that relating to marine biology and marine life. I read yesterday that UK ships are dropping sonar devices out there, which could have a very harsh in impact on a lot of the marine life living out there that depends on sonar for their very survival. Would that sonar activity have any impact on airlines at all?

Dr. Peter Kearney

No. It would have no impact. It is designed to operate underwater and within the sea, which is well away from any systems that we operate.

Again, this highlights the point that marine life out there has nobody to act on its behalf or to take steps and measures to ensure that these exercises do not have that damage. It is so far off the coast, it is very difficult to monitor. There is a huge lack of information about the maritime area and the environmental pressures and conditions in these areas because they are so far out. This was a very interesting afternoon and I thank Dr. Kearney for his time.

On behalf of the committee, I must say that this has been a very informative session. It is great to see people so in command of their brief. Dr. Kearney referred to how many years he has been in Shannon. An operational, intellectual, and skilled expertise has developed over time. We are lucky to have Dr. Kearney at the IAA. Perhaps Mr. Kavanagh will follow up on the various items of information as the Deputy requested. Obviously, the committee will follow up in subsequent meetings with the IAA on its general work in aviation. While it is not his new role, Dr. Kearney is also continuing in the air navigation service, which is, I believe, due to come through.

I very much thank Mr. Kavanagh and Dr. Kearney for attending today's engagement with the committee. It is hugely important at this time that we would get clarity around the security of the State, especially with regard to air space security. We very much welcome the clarification the witnesses have given us today with the information from the UK. The understanding is that Russia will now be carrying out a naval exercise rather than a military exercise. We would ask the IAA to be vigilant to see how that actually unfolds, and that there are no implications for Irish air space.

The committee will be following up on the radar situation. The matter comes up quite a number of times. The witnesses have given us a great deal of information in that area, including many statistics, which is very important. The committee will follow up on this matter. We will adjourn until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 3 February 2022 when we will meet in private session.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.54 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 3 February 2022.
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