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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 May 2022

Irish Coast Guard: Discussion

The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss the Irish Coast Guard with volunteer groups. There will be two sessions. I welcome the following representatives from the Irish Coast Guard Volunteers Representative Association: Mr. John O'Mahony, chairperson; Mr. Jim Griffin, secretary; Mr. Vincent Farr, assistant secretary; and Mr. Bernard Lucas, assistant chairperson.

All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

There are some limitations to parliamentary privilege for witnesses attending remotely from outside the Leinster House campus and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present does. Witnesses participating from a jurisdiction outside the State are advised they should also be mindful of domestic law and how it may apply to the evidence they give.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect they should not comment on, criticise or make changes against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. Reluctantly, I will not permit a member to participate if he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts of Leinster House will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via MS Teams to confirm he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making his or her contribution to the meeting. If members are attending in the committee room, they are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contacting Covid-19. I thank the witnesses for attending and ask Mr. O'Mahony to make his opening statement. Deputy Carey will substitute for me for a couple of minutes as there is something I need to attend to.

Deputy Joe Carey took the Chair.

Mr. John O'Mahony

We are pleased to appear before the committee as representatives of the Irish Coast Guard Volunteers Representative Association, ICGVRA, and we thank the committee for its invitation.

Last October, a member of this committee commented that the initialism ICGVRA did not roll off the tongue. We agree but it describes who we are, what we do and our role. Our association was set up during 2021 and was officially launched in Kilkee, County Clare. The establishment of our representative association was the result of many discussions between Irish Coast Guard volunteers over the preceding months. During those discussions, we concluded that there was a profound lack of support for Irish Coast Guard volunteers who were in dispute with the management and that a volunteers representation body within the ICG structure was lacking. We set about putting our association together to represent any and every volunteer in a situation of conflict or grievance but also to co-operate with management to establish a better working environment for the volunteers.

We launched our association publicly in Kilkee, County Clare. Kilkee is the place where we Coast Guard volunteers lost one of our own in August 2016, which will be six years ago this coming August. We remember Caitríona Lucas here today as we remember those who died in Rescue 116 at Black Rock, County Mayo, and in Rescue 112 many years before in the dunes in County Waterford. Today, we will present our view on several issues that concern us.

The first has regard to the Coast Guard code of conduct. The Coast Guard code of conduct outlines the way that any complaint or interpersonal issue that may arise during training or on a search and rescue operation is to be resolved. Unfortunately, in many cases, it is used against the volunteer, with many being threatened with disciplinary action or dismissal. The process of dealing with volunteers’ complaints does not reflect the pathway described in the Coast Guard code. It often results in despair and the destruction of great volunteers. The Coast Guard code does not mention anywhere the circumstances in which a volunteer is entitled to any representation whatsoever other than that a fellow volunteer may accompany another at a disciplinary hearing or meeting, although only as a witness.

The second issue I will raise relates to the Coastal Unit Advisory Group, CUAG. From the minutes of CUAG meetings going back as far as 2012 circulated by management, some alarming facts are evident regarding the interactions both between Irish Coast Guard management and CUAG and between CUAG and Coast Guard volunteers. There are some serious issues with the way CUAG was formed to start with but, critically, CUAG has thereafter been controlled and managed by Irish Coast Guard management. CUAG officers are elected at the annual officers in charge, OICs, conference so only OICs can nominate and elect members to CUAG. The suggestion made to the committee in November 2021, when Irish Coast Guard management came before it, that CUAG members are elected by the volunteers is therefore untrue. At that hearing, it was stated that CUAG can advocate on behalf of a volunteer. The CUAG terms of reference do not allow a CUAG member to represent a volunteer in disciplinary matters, hence the formation of our association to fulfil this role. We understand that there are currently volunteers who are not OICs on CUAG but we have not seen any change in its operation and we do not know how these volunteers are selected.

We would like to discuss two of the many reports carried out over many years that have affected many Coast Guard volunteers: the Fisher report and the Mulvey report. In summary, there are many concerns raised by volunteers on Irish Coast Guard management and the functioning of Irish Coast Guard structures. We thank the Chairman, the committee and our own supporters and families, who have helped us get here today. Several people, who I am not going to mention, have assisted us and they are very important to us. We got a lot of assistance from the press in the early days, when nobody wanted to know who we were. International maritime lawyer, Michael Kingston, assisted us in getting our association legally registered. We thank him for that. I will conclude by declaring that we will answer members' questions factually and honestly.

The witnesses are very welcome to this hearing. I congratulate them on putting together a representative body because, based on what we have before us and what we have heard in the past, there is no representative body for the rank and file. I was involved with voluntary organisations for quite a lot of my young life but I was never involved in an organisation from which people could be dismissed. Will the association's representatives explain how somebody is dismissed from a voluntary organisation?

Mr. Jim Griffin

I can only talk about my personal experience of dismissal. It happened as a result of a grievance Coast Guard management had with me. It asked for a boat review of the Dunmore East Coast Guard unit. That is how it all started. It was called a Coast Guard boat review and there was no mention of a grievance or anything. It later became what was clearly a witch-hunt and then an investigation. Six or eight weeks into this boat review, the terminology used in emails sent to me began to include the word "investigation".

In my own circumstances, management came to ask me questions regarding the Dunmore East Coast Guard unit. I answered these openly and honestly. Management then asked if it could talk to my team members. At the time, there were 22 members of the team in Dunmore East. I said that it should of course feel free to ask any of my team whatever questions it wanted to ask. It said the questions would be based on what I had already been asked. At my hearing, held in the Ramada hotel in Waterford city, I was allowed to bring my deputy officer. I could bring whoever I wished from my team and I chose my deputy officer. My Deputy and I were clear that, if those questions were put to any of our team, they would answer in the same way we did, that is, openly and honestly. However, we found out afterwards that team members could not express themselves when questioned. Only yes-no answers were allowed. If they were asked whether there were non-Coast Guard members on the Dunmore East Coast Guard boat, they could only answer "Yes" or "No". As it transpired, we had the likes of Charlie Bird - whom I wish well if he is listening today - and other RTÉ correspondents on the boat when they were making programmes about safety at sea. We would get permission from our Coast Guard managers in this regard. They were the only people. From time to time, we also held wreath-laying ceremonies. As the Senator will know, the south-east coast has seen tragedy after tragedy at Dunmore East since 2006. Our unit was responsible for recovering most of those people. We brought their families out for wreath-laying ceremonies, which were always okayed by management. While I was able to explain that to management, when my team was asked whether people who were not Irish Coast Guard personnel had been on our boat, they had to answer "Yes". That was how management came after me.

At that time, I was a sitting member of CUAG having been elected onto it for a third time in 2018 but at no stage in my hearing was I told that I could rely on CUAG for backup or for help in my appeal process. I was sent email after email from a company called Graphite, which was investigating me, but my investigation was through management only and I do not believe my voice was expressed to anybody for fair hearing.

All of the witnesses are senior members of the Irish Coast Guard Volunteers Representative Association. Will they give me some idea of the level of morale within the organisation? Given that all members are volunteers, I am sure that morale is needed to keep people going.

Mr. John O'Mahony

Morale in the Coast Guard is at an all-time low. Many units are at half-strength or less. Even within those units, the number turning up for call-outs and training may be even lower. I will explain one of the reasons for that.

When a dispute happens, one member of the team may be targeted. Whether that is legitimate or not, privacy and confidentiality then come into play in any dealings between Irish Coast Guard management and the volunteer concerned. He or she is not allowed to share information with other team members. The members of the team then become distant from each other. The team can often split. No local resolution is allowed anymore. We have done this for many years. We have almost 100 years of service between us and for many years we were involved in bringing teams together. Under the current management, that is not encouraged now or even allowed. Disputes are taken out of the local team and dealt with as grievance complaints or volunteers are being put on trial. From then on, volunteers have no right to any external assistance. It is only possible for another volunteer to sit in with them as a witness. The State can throw the full-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell resumed the Chair.

The volunteers have no right to engage with the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC.

Mr. John O'Mahony

We have no right to engage with the WRC, no right to join a union and we cannot go to the Ombudsman.

These people are volunteers.

Mr. John O'Mahony

When we check it, we are told every time that we are volunteers and not workers.

I have two more questions. I turn first to the issue of life jackets. If there is discomfort with this issue, I ask the witnesses to let me know. I have travelled around the country and I have spoken to people. The Rescue 400 life jacket - I think that is what it was called - was brought into service. How long was it in service before it was decommissioned?

Mr. Vincent Farr

The Rescue 400 life jacket was introduced for volunteers in 2015. A technical advisory group of local volunteers, merchant seamen and professional people in the fire service tested this jacket to see if it was fit for purpose. Many complaints were made about the jacket as we tested it. As one individual said, when the jacket activated, it was like being kicked in the face by a horse. It ended up with that person having a black eye. It knocked off helmets and failed to open on numerous occasions in tests. That was in 2015.

When was it taken out of service?

Mr. Vincent Farr

It was very recently. If I remember correctly, it was recalled in 2020 or 2021.

Mr. Vincent Farr

They knew about the failures after the accident at Kilkee. We raised the issues there and then. In the subsequent reports regarding Kilkee, this jacket did not appear in any of them. Am I correct Mr. Lucas?

Mr. Bernard Lucas

Yes.

Mr. Vincent Farr

We had issues in 2015. In February of that year, down in the National Maritime College of Ireland in Cork, we sea-trialled this jacket in a real-world environment.

What life jacket is in use now?

Mr. Vincent Farr

It is the Crewsaver life jacket, as far as I am aware.

That is the one used by the Royal National Lifeboat Institution.

Mr. Vincent Farr

Yes.

That was the precursor to the Rescue 400.

Mr. Vincent Farr

Yes, it was a similar type of jacket. There is now an upgrade to that life jacket.

The other issue I have some concerns about is communications. Do any of the witnesses want to explain this to me? There are problems with communications within the organisation.

Mr. Vincent Farr

Typically, units were furnished with a TETRA radio. The latter is a digital radio set. This is a nationwide communications system, and these radios are used by the fire service, local authorities, An Garda Síochána and the ambulance service. The Irish Coast Guard helicopter crews use it as well, and the coast radio stations at Valentia, Dublin and Malin Head have it. It is used to communicate with the helicopter crews and other emergency services. Unfortunately, the volunteers were issued one set. This set was unable to be used to communicate with other emergency services. It did not have a function that would allow the dialling of the ambulance service or An Garda Síochána. Members of those organisations could be physically on-site with volunteers, but was not possible to make a communication call to them. That is important from an information perspective regarding a casualty.

Those TETRA sets were then withdrawn and their function was eliminated from the volunteer crews. Therefore, we could not then call the crew of a Coast Guard helicopter that was coming into a helicopter landing site with a patient, who could possibly be critically ill, to provide an update to our own people regarding what to do. Yet management has that ability. A great deal of money has been spent on the TETRA radio system for volunteer crews, but they are now on shelves in cupboards and not being used. We are denied the function that management has available and that the members of all the other emergency, or blue light, services have. The constant dumbing down of our service is frustrating our volunteers. It is more administration.

I have one more question, if I may. Forgive me for what I am about to say, but the witnesses will be regarded as cranks. They will be seen as people who are disgruntled and have an axe to grind regarding the issues raised at this meeting. I refer to the lack of representation for members, for example. We have been told that members never asked for representation. Therefore, the perception will be that the witnesses wish to get even with the Coast Guard and that they set up this organisation purely to be a thorn in the side of the Coast Guard.

Mr. John O'Mahony

I will take this question. On any of our Zoom calls, we hear phrases like "They destroyed my life" used. That was what was said by someone who spent 20 years of his life as a senior officer in command, OIC, in a south-coast unit. Someone who served in a unit on the west coast, and who went to the steps of the High Court, spent €11,000 of his own money doing so and was one of the few people to ever get a successful appeal hearing, but he had to pay for it, said there was no place to go to for help and no one to turn to. Those are just two of the examples I would use to-----

How far back was that?

Mr. John O'Mahony

This has happened in the last year. The case itself was taken probably about two to three years' ago. It was covered by the press and it is well known.

Regarding the issues being spoken of, how long have they been apparent?

Mr. John O'Mahony

When we were talking to that man who said they had destroyed his life, we referred to this experience as going back about five years. He said, however, that it went back much further than that. We spoke to him in 2021, so these issues go back about seven or eight years. We know most of us have been dealing with this for the past four years. Even yesterday, we received another email from a unit in the south west, where exactly the same issues are being experienced. These people have been interacting with the coastal unit advisory group, CUAG, for the past five or six months and getting nowhere.

Does CUAG have any volunteers on it?

Mr. John O'Mahony

They are all volunteers.

Yes. I mean non-officers.

Mr. John O'Mahony

Yes, they have been added just recently. We do not know, however, the method that was used to put them on that group. We believe there are three of them there now. In the past, CUAG has had no change in how it operates. The first time the body contacted volunteers was in November 2021, after this committee had representatives of the Coast Guard appear before it. Within a few weeks of that meeting, Mr. Farr, along with several others, was contacted by CUAG for the first time in 21 years. I refer to statements like that. We had an email from one of the members of the crew at Doolin, that has now been stood down. In that email, he wrote that the volunteers there needed help, that they did not know how to help themselves, only how to help others. Those volunteers knew how to go out to help the public and to rescue people. They did not know, however, what to do when things started to go against them. They needed a volunteer representative association.

I apologise to Senator Craughwell.

I wish to get to the bottom of this matter. Would it be fair to say that the Coast Guard - and I am talking about the permanent staff and the management - sees itself as being responsible not just for the organisation, but also for the lives of members of the organisation? Would they regard themselves as knowing what is best in a unit and would the witnesses be challenging that view?

Mr. Jim Griffin

At no stage do any of the full-time staff come out on an incident call with us. They have never done so. They always turn up to an incident a few hours or a day afterwards to run it. They would be classed as incident managers.

For anybody here today who thinks full-time members of staff turn out to incidents, that is a myth. Incidents are turned out to by volunteers only. Since the foundation of the State, since we were the Irish Marine Emergency Service and progressed to the Irish Coast Guard in 2000, we were always the volunteers who turned out to incidents.

On the question the Senator asked about morale, when we stated to the committee in our opening statement that there is more than 100 years of experience here, any other organisation would embrace that 100 years and look for it to make the organisation a more professional organisation and would interact with us.

The Senator talked about us being perhaps just four disgruntled members. From day one, we have gone to management time after time - some of them became very good friends of ours through the 23 years that we worked with them - and said what is being done is so unfair. They have to listen to us. Our concerns are for the volunteers and for those who are coming after us, be it our sons or daughters or people in our community who want to become Coast Guard volunteers, but they would not, or refused to, engage on our safety concerns. It was almost as if they thought we were getting too big for our boots but we were getting very professional. As life and the Coast Guard, as the fourth emergency service, progressed, we were that finding incident after incident was becoming high-tech and we were getting good at it but they did not want to take our concerns on board.

Morale is at an all-time low within the Coast Guard. I would go as far as to say the Order of Malta, Civil Defence and other such organisations are finding it difficult to recruit volunteers. I would say that applies to Scouting Ireland and all such organisations, but the Coast Guard and mountain rescue are the complete opposite because of the intensity of the work we do. We have volunteers constantly wanting to join the Irish Coast Guard, the South Eastern Mountain Rescue Association, SEMRA, and mountain rescue, but not in its current form. We are being told that. As ex-officers constantly in our community, when the Coast Guard is back to what it used to be, we would love to come back on board. Eleven of my members left when I was dismissed. I would say more than 70% of Coast Guard units across the State at present are operating, or are limping along, on a little more than 50% of their volunteers.

I welcome the Irish Coast Guard Volunteers Representative Association here. Indeed, I and others looked for this opportunity for them to come before the committee. It is great they have managed to come in and give a strong presentation.

I attended the launch of their organisation in Kilkee in August last. I want to remember the late Ms Caitríona Lucas who was remembered on that day as well. I also want to remember those lost in Rescue 116 and Rescue 112 who Mr. O'Mahony made reference to earlier on in his opening statement.

I got a sense that the Irish Coast Guard Volunteers Representative Association was a national organisation. In terms of its membership, I met people that day from Galway, Kerry, Waterford, Clare and Cork. Could the witnesses give us a sense of how many members they have in their association, where they come from and, generally, what brings them together?

Mr. John O'Mahony

I thank Deputy Carey for his question. We stopped enrolling members to a certain extent towards the end of 2021. We ended up with just under 100 members.

Mr. O'Mahony should not in any way take this in a derogatory way. Were many of those active volunteers?

Mr. John O'Mahony

At the time almost all of them were active but since then several have been given their marching papers. We have eight out of ten from the Doolin ten. Right around the coast, we have many members who are still current serving members. We have many members, including some people who emailed us yesterday, who are current serving members of units that are experiencing problems.

To answer the question, one our members in the north west - he is the person who is on our committee and he comes on the Zoom meetings - has four or five people behind him. This is the way it is in many units throughout the country.

Could Mr. O'Mahony give us a sense of the different counties that these volunteers come from?

Mr. John O'Mahony

We have spoken to people in Donegal. We have people from County Mayo all the way down the west coast and around the south coast to County Wexford. Some of the members, for example, work in public service jobs and they are precluded from being active in some of the activities we do. While they are members of our association, for example, they have not made any phone calls to any of the committee members because they are in jobs that preclude them from that.

It would be reasonable to say that it is a broad church. They represent at least 100 people - there could be more - and right along the west coast and around to the east coast. I congratulate Irish Coast Guard Volunteers Representative Association on establishing itself as an organisation.

Following the previous hearing of this committee with the Irish Coast Guard, it is obvious there is a significant deficit there in terms of its advisory committee, Coastal Unit Advisory Group, CUAG. Even in its name, it is an advisory committee. It is not a representative group, such as the association. Is it fair to say that when a grievance or a dispute arises, it is difficult to get that issue resolved?

Mr. John O'Mahony

Absolutely. I, and others, have submitted grievance complaints but they have never been adjudicated. They were put in in January 2021. I was told to do this by someone from Graphite whom I had mediation with. I did not do it for two years and, reluctantly, in January 2021, I submitted those grievance complaints. I got an email in December 2021 to say that these were being actioned by the appropriate authorities. It is now May and I have heard nothing from them since.

Mr. Jim Griffin

To expand on what Mr. O'Mahony was trying to explain to Deputy Carey there, when we were given the code of conduct book, it was there to help us along the way with these "grievances", as the Deputy called them. Some of them would be minor disputes that would happen on any given training exercise if somebody turned up late or if a volunteer's shoes were on when walking in the station door instead of his or her boots, because the volunteer was rushing from work. The officer might say, "Go out and put on your boots". The majority of these grievances were minor, but because the code, in its current form, is more or less rammed down our throats word for word, it has spiralled small disputes that were rectified in our units over the past 25 or 30 years into what are classed now as grievances where an outside agency has to come in and deliberate or a manager is forced down to the station. If they gave us the autonomy, the officers and the deputies, a close-knit female and male unit, these disputes would not arise in the first place. That is the honest truth.

I am aware of a situation that happened in the Cliffs of Moher over the past couple of weeks where a person broke their leg and I understand that the volunteers could not help that casualty. Is that the case?

Mr. Bernard Lucas

Very much so. It happened the day before yesterday. The casualty had a suspected broken hip on the pathway at the Cliffs of Moher. The pathway is not particularly wide and there is a wire. The Coast Guard volunteers are not allowed to go over that wire for different reasons. This person was roaring in pain with a broken leg. Three volunteers turned up from Doolin and there was nothing they could do. The Fire Brigade came along, went over the wire, put the person on a stretcher and took them to the hospital as quickly as possible. The helicopter, on this occasion, airlifted the person.

Why would that be the case? Why can volunteers not do what they should be doing and rescue that casualty?

Mr. Bernard Lucas

It is to do with a report done on parts of the Cliffs of Moher stating that they were dangerous, they were going to fall and different things like that.

Who carried out that report?

Mr. Bernard Lucas

It was carried out on behalf of Clare County Council. The name of the company that did it escapes me.

That is fine but it was carried out under the auspices of Clare County Council.

Mr. Bernard Lucas

It was. The report deemed that parts of the Cliffs of Moher were unsafe. A plan was put in place that, if we had to go out over the Cliffs of Moher, we would park a jeep in the field, chocks would be put on the back of the jeep and we would anchor ropes, attach a harness and go over the fence. However this has never been implemented. The plans are there and the equipment arrived. However, the plan is lost wherever these things go and nothing has ever been implemented.

The case that happened the day before yesterday was very important because, if there had been low fog on that day, the helicopter would not have been able to winch from the top of the Cliffs of Moher. If the fire brigade had been called to a house fire, this casualty would still have been lying, just there, roaring in pain with a broken hip. The three volunteers would not have been able to go to relieve or comfort her or put anything around her hypothermia. I do not know the answer.

We have an area called Aill na Searrach. It is a very steep slope and a goat path runs down along it. Surfers go down and people go down to take pictures. It is quite steep and you would want to have a good head for heights to be able to do it. If anything happens to anybody at the bottom of this path, such as a simple sprained or twisted ankle, there is no mechanism to get that person out of there, with the Doolin team having been stood down. We have the ropes, gear and experience. We have done it many times over the years but, at present, there is nobody to take that person from that position to the top and to safety.

How many volunteers are currently available to the Doolin coastguard?

Mr. Bernard Lucas

The coastguard came back with an interim team of eight. One of those eight has subsequently stood down, so it now has seven. The work pertains an awful lot to these people. A good few of them work away for long periods of time or on 12-hour shifts. The numbers could fluctuate on any given day but the team would be lucky to have two or three on a call-out.

It is basically not functioning currently.

Mr. Bernard Lucas

It cannot function as a rescue team at present. Absolutely not.

Mr. Jim Griffin

It is probably worth noting that one of the volunteers who turned up yesterday as a member of the fire service personnel is also a member of the coastguard personnel. Had he turned up as a member of the coastguard personnel, he could not have gone over the fence but as part of the fire service, he could. We are supposed to be fourth emergency service.

Mr. Bernard Lucas

This causes considerable frustration within the teams. This is just red tape that has gone way over board. It comes from not listening to or taking in the opinions of volunteers on the ground. With all due respect to the coastguard management who have staff and draw up protocols, that is great, but the protocols are done up in an office environment and do not necessarily transfer onto ground. Volunteers need to be able to carry out a dynamic risk assessment of everything. They are doing it in their heads when they go to a call-out and see that the path is slippy or the wind is blowing the wrong way. They cannot follow a set guideline of rules that is drawn up in an office for every scenario because it will not follow that. Volunteers are carrying out a dynamic risk assessment anyway. They and the teams need to be given this right to-----

There are full-time managers within the coastguard over every section. How many are there nationally? We were told a number.

Mr. Bernard Lucas

How many units are there?

Mr. Bernard Lucas

There are 44 units.

There are full-time people employed.

Mr. Bernard Lucas

Yes, there are.

There are full time staff who are in charge within the coastguard. When volunteers go up along the chain of one of the 44 units, ultimately, who is the first person within management to whom they report?

Mr. Bernard Lucas

I presume that would be our officer in charge, OIC, who is our direct manager on the teams. The manager is a volunteer as well.

Who is above the manager above that again?

Mr. Bernard Lucas

Above that, there is a coastal unit sector manager, CUSM. There is one in the north west and one in the south.

Have the volunteers had much interaction with those managers? Do they come down to meet the volunteers and walk the Cliffs of Moher?

Mr. Bernard Lucas

Yes, they came down a bit. Since there has been trouble in Doolin for a little while, they have been down at many of the training sessions.

Mr. Jim Griffin

CUSMs are not that very long in the organisation. They were always known as operational training officers, OTOs, who came down from full-time staff. CUSMs were recruited predominantly from the Naval Service, if I can say that, and they have not integrated very well with the units to gain their experience or get to know the lie of the land in any given area.

Prior to CUSMs coming on board, who dealt with that area of management?

Mr. Jim Griffin

It was normally search and rescue, SAR, operational managers and OTOs. They were the first four head managers in our coastguard organisation.

Based in Dublin.

Mr. Jim Griffin

Yes.

Did they come down to meet the units?

Mr. Jim Griffin

They would have done training assessments with us in their day.

When did that change come?

Mr. Jim Griffin

Perhaps in 2015 or 2016.

Mr. John O'Mahony

The reason the team in Doolin is able to access that area Mr. Lucas was describing is that the coastguard has a world-class Tag 07 climbing system. When the system is properly set up on a clifftop, a climber going down is as safe as someone crossing a zebra crossing. A climber is very safe. That system can bring stretchers up and drop them down. It can drop coastguard medical people down and a person can be put into the stretcher and brought up. It is a super, world-class system.

I thank the witnesses for being present and apologise for missing their opening statements. I was caught in the Chamber but I have read through them. I echo what Deputy Carey said in commending the witnesses on what they have established. We had hearings here a number of months ago when we were hearing, mainly privately, the deep concerns that were held by volunteers and former volunteers of the coastguard. From my perspective, it did not align well with what we were hearing back from officials in the Department or the Irish Coast Guard. It is commendable to stand up. I know the witnesses have individually and collectively sacrificed over the years. It is important to point to the extensive experience within the Irish Coast Guard Volunteers Representative Association and beyond. That tells a tale and should not go unnoticed.

I will try to move it on a little bit. The witnesses will have heard the exchange the last time. What needs to change? What has changed in the recent weeks and months since we had previous hearings? Is it enough? What more needs to change? I will pick up on a previous point. We will hear from the Coastal Unit Advisory Group, CUAG, in the next session. I expect there have been some changes there. The witnesses have pointed to some changes that have happened there in the recent past. Are they enough?

It is significant that CUAG is an advisory group. The Irish Coast Guard Volunteers Representative Association is a representative group. Has the latter group had meetings with the Minister? Is it recognised? Is it established in that way? What does the future look like? Is there a need for CUAG to continue? Will it take on an advisory role, along with the Irish Coast Guard Volunteers Representative Association? Will there be a blending of the two? How does that configure?

Mr. John O'Mahony

I will pass to Mr. Farr in a moment. We would love to have a meeting with the Minister. We have had no contact whatsoever. It would be great if we could have a meeting. We have not seen the new CUAG terms of reference. We would be interested in seeing them.

One of the things we are reasonably clear on is that if, for example, the Minister will not speak to us, one of the only ways we see the new CUAG working is if there is an independent body. This could be someone such as an ombudsman to supervise it and ensure that volunteers have somewhere to go, a final port of call and someone to contact when procedures have failed. When their appeal hearings fail, almost all of the volunteers need someone. I will pass to Mr. Farr because he has something to add on this.

Mr. Vincent Farr

The current management has instilled a culture of fear within volunteers. That is a matter of fact.

I ask Mr. Farr to be careful in terms of names. He can speak on specifics.

Mr. Vincent Farr

Volunteers are afraid to bring up legitimate issues, including simple things such as fundamental rights, natural justice and a duty of care. We work alongside full-time staff members who are paid. The volunteer has no rights and no respect given to them when they are dismissed or hauled through the coals. The actions of management have split villages, towns and cities. We need to change this. CUAG is not working. We have told management this numerous times. CUAG will not work because of its terms of reference, which state it is an advisory group. This is frustrating volunteers. We need to meet the Minister to explain our footing, which is we need to have something like the Garda representation group, an ombudsman or someone to whom we can turn to justify our claims. These people come from professional backgrounds and are volunteers. More and more is expected of volunteers, including when we step outside our procedures, which could involve minor things such a pair of shoes not being worn on the cliffs.

The fire service uses standard operating guidelines. It is left up to the individual to risk assess, if he or she needs to go out. Take the call in Doolin only the other day. If the volunteers did a proper risk assessment, they could step out with other members. They were not allowed do that because that culture of fear is being instilled in volunteers and now CUAG. I sat on CUAG several times, as did Mr. Griffin. We know what is happening. Management sets the agendas, takes the minutes and edits the minutes to suit itself. We know that. We can prove that and can show it here if the committee requires.

I will ask about the firemen.

Deputy O'Rourke is in control. I will allow Senator Craughwell to come in-----

I just wonder does this apply to volunteer firemen as well.

I will allow Deputy O'Rourke to conclude his questioning. Does he wish to give way to Senator Craughwell?

Firemen leave it to their professional judgment based on guidelines. Does that also apply to volunteer firemen? Smaller fire stations are all staffed by volunteers.

Mr. Vincent Farr

Absolutely. The retained fire service also has that leeway. We work to standard operating guidelines throughout our island nation. What I do as a full-time fire officer for almost 30 years, the gentleman or lady in the local village works under the auspices of the same guidelines.

In the past, people typically got a small stipend when volunteering. Is that not the case with the ICGVRA?

Mr. Vincent Farr

We get out-of-pocket expenses.

There is some financial link there.

Mr. Vincent Farr

Yes, but the OICs get a payment. As the Chairman said, they get a stipend.

Is that similar to the firemen?

Mr. Vincent Farr

It is nothing near that.

No, but firemen get P60s. The OICs-----

Mr. Vincent Farr

On OICs, there are three different contracts running in the Coast Guard-----

Do they get P60s?

Mr. Vincent Farr

We get P60s. We are classed as employees under statutory law.

Mr. Jim Griffin

I will answer Deputy O'Rourke's question on the importance of the Minister. I listened to the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Hildegarde Naughton, on the television last night. I was struck by how well she spoke. When she was asked a question, and people in other rooms are all talking about the maternity hospital today, she took it on herself - not advisers or anybody else - to find out that all the boxes were ticked so she could sign off on this 300-year lease that is being talked about. I thought to myself if the Minister of State could give that to us, we would be over the line here and would be able to engage with management again. That is how in-depth it needs to be. I respect all the committee members who are listening to us today, but we need to get that message to the Minister of State. What she is hearing from management is not what is happening on the ground.

From what I am hearing and on the basis of some of the earlier comments, I was also thinking about an issue in the context of something I watched on television earlier this week regarding an organisation that has lost a significant amount of management expertise in recent years. I refer to the issue of autonomy and respect. That is something that is coming through. In any of these situations, and we have seen it in many areas, we train people to a standard, we have confidence in their skills and ability and we allow them to do their jobs.

A couple of things follow on from that. Is the ICGVRA satisfied with the code of conduct? Is it just a case of the interpretation and application of it? Is it too rigorous or are there fundamental issues with the code of conduct?

On the culture of fear within the organisation, is it a matter of addressing those protocols and codes of practice or are they okay? What do the representatives see as the method to address those? Is it new forums and structures or is it new forums and structures and codes of conduct?

Mr. Jim Griffin

I would certainly start with the code of conduct booklet. When the code of conduct was designed, and given to us as volunteers to have our say on it, it was predominantly brought out by the volunteers. For a long number of years, we were happy to work within the confines of the code of conduct because it was a code we practically wrote ourselves and gave us the ownership to deal with issues without having to go outside the remit of the unit involved in whatever dispute it had. At that stage, we were probably trundling along from 2012 through to 2014 or 2015 with that code of conduct book. It was then rehashed and rejigged and, at that stage, volunteers and officers in charge had very little input into it. As a matter of fact, I would go as far as saying an officer in charge, who was very involved in the code of conduct at the time, expressed his view that the new edition that came out had very little to do with the input of officers or the volunteers. He became a target himself, was victimised and is now another officer, like us, standing on the sidelines looking in.

Mr. John O'Mahony

The code of conduct would be a great document if it was employed equally for volunteers, but it is employed against us. One of the fundamental problems is we have no one to enforce the code of conduct for us. We should have someone, such as an ombudsman, to ensure that. We should not have to go to an ombudsman but if we could ensure that our rights in the code of conduct were available to us, there would not be an issue. However, we are not allowed. One of the very first pages of the code of conduct contains a reference to dignity and respect. I made a few phone calls before we came before the committee, and spoke to people I had not spoken to for several months, including former OICs.

Without prompting, they came out with the phrase "lack of dignity and respect". They were an amalgamated team, but under the Fisher report, many of the teams were destroyed and written off. The people left had no recourse to their rights under the code of conduct and they had no way of enforcing it other than to do what one of our volunteers did, that being, taking €18,000 out of his own pocket and getting a solicitor. Most people cannot afford to do that, though, and should not have to.

Mr. Vincent Farr

We would welcome a full review of the volunteer training and Coast Guard code. We would love to have an input into it. We need certain items to be removed from the code, as there are too many inconsistencies in the document. It is not a user-friendly document for the common member of the Coast Guard, who is a simple volunteer. Excuse me for using the term “simple volunteer”, but that is what we are. Some people come from professional backgrounds and are used to dealing with this type of thing, but others are not. They may be mariners, fishers, farmers, local milk deliverers, shopkeepers or office clerks. We need these inconsistencies to be removed.

Through simple actions, management has proven time and again that it has a blatant disregard for volunteers. Management uses the code against them for management’s personal gain. It will employ a HR company specifically to find fault with a volunteer’s answer on a certain question. Unfortunately, we have lost numerous volunteers – good men and women – around our coast. In simple terms, the management structure is not working. CUAG is not working because it is set up not to work. That is evident in its terms of reference.

I thank the witnesses for attending, for their volunteerism and for the spirit in which they have presented to the committee. In my 15 years in the Oireachtas, I have never been as depressed as I have been while listening to that presentation. CUAG is not working and there is an issue with low morale. I know some of the witnesses. Mr. Farr is a fine person and I hold him in high esteem. These are volunteers who are before us.

I wish to ask a couple of “simple” questions, to use Mr. Farr’s term. Has the association met the Minister and who is the line Minister for this matter?

Mr. John O'Mahony

I thank the Senator for his question. Morale is poor, but we have been proud of our service in the Coast Guard. The Coast Guard service is a good organisation in terms of the rescues it performs. It is also good in terms of how we have both men and women and they are equal. Someone can become a cox or a climber on a boat. Morale is very low, though.

I believe that the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, has responsibility for us. We would love to have a meeting with her. It would be great if she would arrange for that.

Has the association met her advisers or the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan’s advisers? Has the Minister for Defence any remit over the Coast Guard?

Mr. John O'Mahony

Not as far as we know. In an interaction with someone, I once heard that the Minister for Defence had some role, but we do not know what that is. The nearest we came to a meeting with the Minister of State was when one of her advisers spoke to one of our association members in October or November 2021. It was a good conversation and we had great hopes afterwards. Unfortunately, though, it came to nothing.

Mr. Bernard Lucas

I will add to that. I am one of the Doolin ten who were sacked. In an interview on Clare FM, the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, stated that she would meet the volunteers in Doolin, but nothing has happened. I believe that interview was in December.

From my involvement in the GAA and political organisations and from my experience as a Chair of a committee as well as a member of committees, the minutes of a meeting should record decisions taken and actions arising. Therefore, there should be no tampering with or reimagining of a minute of a meeting. Is that a fair comment?

Mr. John O'Mahony

That is a fair comment. The minutes of the meeting should be treated exactly as the Senator says. We have seen many examples – we have brought some with us – of where the minutes were changed. Mr. Farr and Mr. Griffin sat on the CUAG and they know this from a practical point of view, given that they got minutes back and saw that they were not what happened. Basically, the minutes would have been tidied up and any reference to a volunteer dispute or other negative issue would have been removed. Occasionally, some issues got through but that was generally what happened. Mr. Griffin and Mr. Farr can probably go into more detail than I can.

Mr. Jim Griffin

When we attended CUAG meetings, which were predominantly on St. Stephen’s Green in Dublin – we would also have a CUAG meeting just before the annual conference – we would go through minutes. We would probably only have got them a day or two before the meetings. When we asked for them to be addressed and sorted, we were told that they had been signed off on. We could never argue against that because management always had a larger number of members on CUAG than volunteers did. The minutes presented to us would have been signed off on before we got an opportunity to read them and say whether we were happy that they were accurate, true and reflected the previous meeting.

That should not have been the case in any shape or form.

Mr. Jim Griffin

We are all too aware of that.

The Chairman spoke about our use of language. Are we essentially talking about volunteers?

Mr. John O'Mahony

Yes. The stipend was mentioned.

The people in question are predominantly volunteers.

Mr. John O'Mahony

Yes.

The stipend that members receive will not rock the boat – no pun intended – or make them rich.

Mr. John O'Mahony

No. Absolutely not.

May I refer to – I will use the phrase carefully and advisedly – the spirit of fear now enveloping the Coast Guard?

Mr. John O'Mahony

There is a spirit of fear enveloping the Coast Guard. It prevents many of the Coast Guard’s serving members from becoming part of our association. We have these conversations with them. We have met them and sat with them. They keep our name out of it, but they make us aware. We are speaking not just with volunteers throughout the country, but also with officers in charge of units who support what we are doing. They cannot say that publicly or identify themselves to the Coast Guard because they would then become targets. There is a spirit of fear.

My next question relates to a comment from Senator Craughwell. The witnesses should not take what I am saying as being my view, but in light of the presentations we have received today and the questions and answers session we have had, how would they address the claim that they were a group of cranks, disillusioned and disenfranchised, wanting to cause trouble?

Mr. John O'Mahony

I would probably pass that to Mr. Lucas, who has ten members in Doolin, or at least eight, and another two that could add to that. Those people are not-----

Were all four of the witnesses officers in charge?

Mr. Bernard Lucas

I was never an officer; I was just a volunteer.

Mr. John O'Mahony

Mr. Farr and Mr. Griffin were officers in charge and I was a deputy officer in charge.

Mr. Vincent Farr

We have come through the ranks.

Mr. Bernard Lucas

The role of a good officer was to make sure the unit was as good as-----

Mr. O'Mahony wanted Mr. Lucas to comment on the Senator's question.

Then I am going to rephrase it again.

Mr. Bernard Lucas

Will the Senator go back over it?

For us to be at this point today, there is a gargantuan grievance and morale is low. For the witnesses to come here today took a huge reason and it is a significant statement by them. It is clear to me and, I am sure, other members that something is fundamentally not right here.

Mr. Bernard Lucas

Absolutely, there is something fundamentally not right. I have witnessed people being dismissed from Doolin Coast Guard when they fall out of favour with the OIC or fall out with his direct boss. If you lose favour with the OIC-----

I apologise for interrupting but when Mr. Lucas says "fall out of favour", what does he mean? He is a volunteer.

Mr. Bernard Lucas

If, for some reason, the OIC takes a dislike to you, you are pretty much dismissed. You are told you are in trouble. The CUSM will come down. You will get a letter saying you will be dismissed and the CUSM will always back up the OIC. You will not meet them separately. They will be together in a room. You will be told you are dismissed and that is it. There is a procedure to appeal it. I do not know anybody who has appealed, got back in and the decision overturned. The exception to that is the person who had to spend €18,000 of his own money and sort it out on the steps of the court. To my knowledge, that is the only person who has got back in.

We do not have a mechanism whereby we can get legal representatives paid for by the State, like the Coast Guard can. We have none of these rights. We are ignored. Mention was made here of the Army representative body and stuff like that. We do not have any of these things. Firefighters have it but we do not. If one of us wants to take it further, as the other person did, it is out of that person's own pocket. The Coast Guard has the full weight of the State behind it.

Mediation could be the next step. What would the witnesses' view be if the next step was, for example, binding arbitration between the witnesses, the Coast Guard management and the Department or different parts of the stakeholder engagement? What is the witnesses' view of arbitration, binding or otherwise?

Mr. Vincent Farr

I thank the Senator for the question. Our emergency volunteers are not amateurs. We do not step in to save the day but train to the highest standards. We would welcome arbitration. As we said, we would welcome changes to the code. We are here to contribute for every volunteer around the coast, not just our members. We know and have been told the only representative group is CUAG, but that group does not represent the everyday volunteer on the ground.

We are at a point where we, as a committee, need to take a step back. How many members does Mr. Farr's group have in the overall context of 100% per cent of the pie chart, versus CUAG?

Mr. Vincent Farr

CUAG represents all the members as volunteers, roughly 1,000. Because of the culture of fear, we had to stop our membership at over 100. We were and still are getting calls. We are portrayed as the fourth blue light emergency service but management wanted to take that blue light away from us so we could not help the members of the public we serve. That is where the frustrations are arising.

I thank the witnesses for their service and the risks they take every day on our behalf. I know Mr. Farr and have the highest respect and admiration for him. I have known him and the work he does in Crosshaven and other parts of Cork for a long time. I thank him for that and thank the other witnesses for attending. It was not an easy decision for them to come in and make this presentation but it has been an illuminating process.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. I particularly acknowledge Mr. Lucas. It is a difficult time for him with his late wife.

The committee wants to assist in getting to some structure. Consider a situation where the ICGVRA was recognised by the Irish Coast Guard and entitled to elect people onto CUAG, and the code of conduct was visited in a partnership way We are not reinventing the wheel or putting down arbitration, but just doing practical matters. Would that work?

Mr. Jim Griffin

It could work. Because we would be representing volunteers, it could well work.

CUAG would still be there.

Mr. Jim Griffin

Yes. That is partly where I was going earlier. If we have to accept CUAG in a new form, something like that could work. CUAG could work if there is somewhere the volunteers could go. That could be through us. We want to make clear that we want to work with the Minister of State and the Coast Guard. We are here in a positive role.

Mr. Vincent Farr

We would like to be management's conscience and to make difficult decisions with it, side by side. This is a team and there is no "I" in "team".

It is a partnership model.

Mr. Vincent Farr

Absolutely.

Senator Buttimer's suggestion was very structured. Mine is pretty straightforward but I would like to try the straightforward step first. I believe if people are talking to each other, we can do business. If they are not, we cannot. That is the way the world works.

We had the Irish Coast Guard before us on 18 November last. I want to check one thing I am interested in. We were told at the time there were 900 volunteers. I have no doubt the witnesses have read the transcript and are well prepared. The transcript states:

With the relationship and the industrial relations issues, we have had four disciplinary procedures in place in the past five years for 900 people. Those resulted in no higher than a verbal warning or a written warning. That is for 900 people. We had four dismissals - two this year [which would be 2021] and two last year. The code sets out what is a major infraction [...].

I wanted to check how many dismissals have there been so that, without naming names, we get to the facts of the case. The committee's role is to represent people up and down the country, particularly the public, in terms of the Coast Guard service.

The Coast Guard service is, in the main, provided by volunteers, and we want to assist in that way. Can Mr. O’Mahony just clarify that point for me? How many people have been dismissed?

Mr. John O'Mahony

Out of our association, for example, since the sitting when the committee had the Coast Guard here-----

On 18 November.

Mr. John O'Mahony

At least eight of the Doolin people are gone. I was dismissed in 2021. Mr. Farr is still suspended. Probably about a third of the people we still represent would have been out of the Coast Guard for quite a few years because of issues such as dismissal, one third would be current serving members and the other third would be in transition. I would consider Mr. Lucas and others to be in transition because we think they were unfairly dismissed. Mr. Farr is unfairly dismissed. I would consider myself to be unfairly dismissed. We would hope that, going back to what the Chair said earlier, in any future role where we are working with the CUAG, we consider that these things are still current and hope it would too. The Coast Guard might say they are historic and we are gone. However, we consider that these are still-----

Mr. O'Mahony has looked around. Is there any precedent for another similar type of volunteers such as the ICGVRA, who are recognised by the body that they carry out the volunteer work for? Is there a model anywhere? Has Mr. Farr had the opportunity to look at that?

Mr. Vincent Farr

The Reserve Defence Forces would have that, as well as An Garda Síochána and the Office of the Ombudsman and its representative group.

The reserve forces in the Defence Forces.

Mr. Vincent Farr

Yes, I believe so.

It is a representative body.

The Reserve Defence Force Representative Association, RDFRA.

Mr. Vincent Farr

The Chair's question was how many would we know. We would know of at least a dozen dismissals. The question that should be asked is how much it has spent on HR companies outside of its own HR department on these dismissals. What happens is management demonstrates a typical disregard to the volunteers and wears them down. It drags them through the courts or coals day in, day out, with emails that they have to respond to in a timely manner. These timely manners could be a five-day interval and it wants an answer. Typically, that request comes in at a Friday evening and they are to answer by the following Wednesday. A volunteer could be working or have family commitments. However, management wants an instant answer.

I put to the committee that we, as a committee, write to the Department and Minister, recommending that the Department and Minister would meet with the ICGVRA. Obviously, we will have CUAG in today after the ICGVRA. There should be some mechanism to look at the code of conduct and structures again in the terms of reference of CUAG. If we put that request in, is that something that the ICGVRA would welcome?

Mr. Jim Griffin

"Fair and due process" is on the second page of the book. I look for fair and due process, and on the appeal of my dismissal it is noted on the very last two lines that I am to report back to the Coast Guard with immediate effect after my appeal was presided over by HR. When I phoned Coast Guard management the following morning to look for my volunteer number to be reinstated and to take my place in Dunmore East Coast Guard as a volunteer - not as an office in charge, OIC - I was told there was no place for me in the Coast Guard.

Mr. Griffin was dismissed as an officer, but when he looked to come back as a volunteer, he was not-----

Mr. Jim Griffin

My appeal was presided over and they found in my favour that I could-----

Who carried out the appeal?

Mr. Jim Griffin

A HR team in Coast Guard management.

There are two different sections of the organisation not following-----

Mr. Jim Griffin

No, the same organisation. The same people questioned me that were-----

Perhaps our guests feel that as this stage, in terms of restoring trust and that, there is a need for a recognition. Is that correct?

Mr. Vincent Farr

Absolutely. Unfortunately, it is judge, jury and executioner. We have no rights. All we are looking for is fundamental rights and respect.

I will bring in two non-members, Deputy McNamara and Senator Lombard.

I just want to go back to Mr. Lucas and the incident he described earlier in the week in Clare. Obviously, this person had not fallen a substantial distance down the cliff, but had they fallen over the edge of the cliff?

Mr. Bernard Lucas

No, they had not. There is a path just outside the wire fence. One can walk along the cliffs either side of the visitor centre for a couple of kilometres or one can keep going-----

To Liscannor or to Doolin.

Mr. Bernard Lucas

Yes. There is a set of steps at one particular point and they had fallen just at the bottom of it. They had not fallen off a cliff. They were on the path.

They had to be left there because of this report that-----

Mr. Bernard Lucas

Thankfully, the fire brigade was able to come and perform the task and the helicopter subsequently arrived as well. However, as I said, if, for instance, there had been fog or a house fire, the Coast Guard would not have been able to do anything for that person because of constraints of not being willing to work and go and see these and work around them. For example, why can the fire brigade come, go over the fence and do the job, and we are standing there and we cannot do it? It is nonsensical. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Mr. Vincent Farr

To follow on, they would have been better off taking off the Coast Guard jacket and acting as a good Samaritan. It would have been better to take their coat off and step over the fence, like the Deputy or I could today if someone collapsed in the street. They would have been better off taking off their personal protective equipment, PPE, and stepping over the fence. However, unfortunately because the culture is instilled that they will be punished for doing this, they are afraid. That culture is there. That is a real threat to our volunteer members and that is why we are losing so many members.

This protocol that our guests mentioned that precludes Coast Guard members from crossing that fence and doing it, is that unique to Clare or is that all along the coast?

Mr. Bernard Lucas

It was specifically to do with the Cliffs of Moher because there was a report done saying that certain sections of them were dangerous. It also precludes a boat from going in underneath the Cliffs of Moher in certain sections as well. However, we are a rescue team. We are not out for a walk on a fine day. We go to rescue people or, rather, that is what we should be going to do. If other rescue agencies can go over that fence to help a person who is in trouble, why is it the Coast Guard cannot?

Mr. Jim Griffin

It is worth noting that we would have volunteers who would be, as in Mr. Farr's case, in the fire service or in the paramedic service, and our first aid training is first responder, which is very basic. It is what anyone would have going into any place of employment. However, we would have a paramedic on our teams - even two or three. In the Coast Guard situation, if we have a paramedic on our team, he could not go over that fence either as a Coast Guard volunteer, even though he is a paramedic and fully trained and qualified to administer first aid to that person. He would have to down his PPE, as Mr. Farr rightly said, and go out as the good Samaritan, which is crazy when one thinks of it.

I suppose the Cliffs of Moher are unique, or at least we would like to think they are. However, they are not unique in that there are other cliffs around the coast of Ireland. Are any of our guests aware of similar protocols anywhere else in Ireland?

Mr. Vincent Farr

Just in Cork city. The Crosshaven unit would be normally tasked to the city centre, which is roughly about a 25 minute journey by boat and a similar time by vehicle. Yet, decisions were made not to task that unit or a lifeboat into the city centre because there are possibly other resources, such as the fire service, that might get there. However, as Mr. Lucas said, if there was a house fire or crews were deployed somewhere else, there is nobody coming to rescue that person and it is up to the good Samaritan again.

Deputies Carey and Wynne and I raised the issue of the Doolin Coast Guard in the Dáil, and I think Deputy Crowe did as well. In any event, it was raised extensively in the Dáil. Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, undertook to look into the matter and Kieran Mulvey was appointed. Are our guests happy that the process was carried out as it was?

Mr. Bernard Lucas

No. We are very disappointed by the whole process. We were happy that a mediator was put in place. We expected a reasonable outcome.

We put forward a request at the time.

Mr. Bernard Lucas

Yes, but my understanding is that mediation is a process and it may take time. We had Mr. Mulvey for one-and-a-half hours on a Tuesday night. That was the total time for our mediation. He told us that he would be back the following Tuesday night. He never came back. He said the weather was too bad or made some reference to the weather; there might have been a storm at the time. We never saw Mr. Mulvey again so our mediation process was for one-and-a-half hours. He spoke to the group of ten of us first, and the other six afterwards who also got one-and-a-half hours. No, I do not call that mediation. Mediation is a process that might take weeks or months. So, to answer the question, no I am not happy, nor are any of the ten of us. Essentially they were dismissed. You could not be happy with one-and-a-half hours of mediation. This is from a professional person who has done this all his life. He referred to things in the Mulvey report, as it is called, but he did not speak to any members individually. We were all in a room with a total stranger. People are a bit apprehensive about speaking about stuff and might speak more freely on a one-to-one basis. Instead of doing that he took reports from Graphite which they had done previously on one-to-one meetings with us. He used those as the basis of his one-to-one meetings. However, when we did those meetings with Graphite we were told that they were private and confidential. Yet he got access to them. We do not think that is right. We actually think it is very wrong because those meetings were carried out on the basis that they were private and confidential.

So we are not at all happy. He took a team and he split it in half. Six people resigned over problems with management, a typical thing like the Cliffs of Moher and different issues. Four of those people went back, two did not. Sorry I put the cart before the horse there. We were all sacked so they put together this internal team as they called it. Four of those people who were sacked, went back. They took back two members who had resigned two or three years previously. There were 12 of us and they asked two more to come back and that made up the eight people. Subsequently they asked a couple more of the ten to come back and they said no, they were not going back. They took eight people of whom four qualified; two had retired so some of their certificates had expired. They got rid of a group of ten people who could have continued the unit on all disciplines on the boat, searching and climbing, fully certified, and took on eight who cannot do climbing because there are not enough qualified people, and the boat is restricted. All they can do is search. Where is the logic behind that? I can see where they are coming from. If you read the report or any of the Facebook comments on the accident at the Cliffs of Moher yesterday, it said Rescue 115 attended along with Doolin Coast Guard. It looks great on paper. Doolin Coast Guard was there. Brilliant, but if you look into it deeply, there were three volunteers who could not go over a fence to help a person, that is the reality. They were there, definitely, but could they do anything? No. How does it make sense to take away ten people who could do all the tasks, and take on people who are very limited in what they can do? Essentially the unit is not functioning.

Mr. John O'Mahoney

It will take five years for the newly constituted unit to have the same qualifications as the current team and to be available for full service. We know it will take five years because at one stage Mr. Lucas took a year out and when he came back he was told it would take him five years to get back to where he was in the past. If a medical doctor went to Médecins sans Frontières for a year he or she would not be told to go back to being an intern again on his or her return.

Is Mr. O'Mahoney finished? Yes, thanks.

Mr. Bernard Lucas

I would like to add to that point. We got an email from the Department recently asking us to express our interest in rejoining the Coast Guard. As a group of ten dismissed people we have banded together and said yes we are more than willing and able to join this new unit, and expressed our interest as a group of ten people. We feel that this group of ten people has done nothing wrong whatsoever. We have submitted this to the Coast Guard by the deadline which was last Friday, saying that as a group of ten people we are willing to come back and work and resume and the unit can be up and running immediately. I know these things take time but we will see where that goes.

Mr. John O'Mahoney

As the association, we fully support everything that Mr. Lucas has said.

I thank Mr. Farr, Mr. O'Mahoney, Mr. Griffin and Mr. Lucas for their contributions. It has been very informative. Through their testimony here we have seen the huge gaps in the service and the gaps in confidence. Mr. Farr might give me an indication of where the process is in that if he was to be so-called suspended what rights if any would he have going through the process? Where does the appeal, if there is an appeal mechanism fall in place?

Mr. John O'Mahoney

Taking my case, I was suspended with immediate effect on breaches of Covid-19 rules in that I had an illegal launch of a boat even though it is the coxwain's decision. There is what is called a triple lock in place. I would have to give the go-ahead, the coxwain of the boat would have to give the go-ahead with the crew and the marine rescue sub-centre, MRSC, or the Valentia Coast radio station at the time. I was the only one disciplined for this illegal launch which was to help a member of the public who was stuck on a mud bank. I was questioned and grilled. I was then investigated by a so-called independent adjudicator. This person was three months in the job as a CUSM and had no experience of dealing with volunteers and no training. He concluded a report, as Mr. Griffin would say, a "yes" or "no" answer. On his findings I was dismissed due to management taking the nuclear option, which was misconduct. Misconduct would be theft, bullying or harassment. I have done none of that. My suspension was not justified. I appealed the decision. This appeal went to Graphite HR which did not take into account any additional evidence that I provided regarding the incident. I was not provided with a fair hearing. When it came about I again appealed the decision. I was then investigated by a CUSM HR. This individual found in my favour that I was discriminated against, that my rights of natural justice were infringed. The following day, after I had been vindicated in my appeal, I was dismissed again because of current health and safety breaches. Eight months later I still could not get an answer from management as to what the health and safety breaches were.

The day after?

Mr. Vincent Farr

The day after, literally, in an email. I was not granted the decency of a face-to-face meeting or even a telephone call.

Is there a deficiency in the appeal procedures as it is?

Mr. Vincent Farr

Absolutely because now I have been suspended again, for a third time because I have another breach-----

And that is about conduct and whatever?

Mr. Vincent Farr

Absolutely, and its focus is solely on me.

We want to look at process, as Mr. Griffin will appreciate.

Mr. Jim Griffin

It states clearly in our code of conduct book that the appeal officer's decision is final. It states it on every piece of paper or email that people get when they go through an appeal.

That is obviously about process.

Mr. Jim Griffin

I would ask the question why mine was changed the following day, when the appeals officer found.

I have a question for Mr. O'Mahony with regard to what is happening in Castlehaven. How are the disciplinary issues affecting the community there? Has there been a real rift in the community?

Mr. John O'Mahony

What we know is that it divides. We have some people who have said, “I have not gone into the village since”, and I am talking about somewhere in the south east. People avoid each other and teams are split, when it never used to be like that. We have people from Westport right down to Wexford who are telling us the same story. It is not that former colleagues want to ignore us or ostracise us, but they do not know how to deal with us and we do not know how to deal with them. Every document we get is “private and confidential”. One of the things I was put on trial for was that I breached confidentiality. Normal volunteers should not have to go through most of what we have to go through.

Explain the confidentiality issue. Is it that people get correspondence and they cannot speak about it?

Mr. John O'Mahony

Every document we ever get from the Coast Guard has “private and confidential” on it and we are not to share it.

Mr. Vincent Farr

If we ask for assistance from the Coastal Unit Advisory Group, CUAG, we are automatically in breach of that “confidentiality” term. If we give our story to a member of our team or to CUAG, our hands are tied and that is another disciplinary action against us.

Volunteers are being denied any bit of support.

Mr. John O'Mahony

Absolutely. All we are looking for, as a representative association, is our fundamental rights, such as our rights to appeal and our rights to be respected as a volunteer - the simple little things.

They would be the same rights people would have in the Army regarding the reserve.

Mr. John O'Mahony

It is exactly the same situation. I would certainly not like to be disadvantaged and that is what is happening at the moment.

I thank the witnesses for attending. It cannot have been easy. We value the work that is done the length and breadth of the country by the 900 volunteers. As a committee, we want to do something proactive and constructive. Obviously, we have CUAG coming in. In addition, to follow up on the request of the witnesses, we will follow up with the Department and the Minister. Furthermore, we will follow up on the request of ICGVRA to be recognised by the Irish Coast Guard, working with CUAG and looking at its terms of reference, and looking at working in partnership around the code of conduct to make it better. The ICGVRA wants to make the service as safe as possible. Would it be fair to say this has caused inadvertent or unnecessary friction among colleagues the length and breadth of the country?

Mr. Jim Griffin

Since I was dismissed, I have not been on the harbour in Dunmore East in two and half years, such is the pressure on my own team mates, friends and colleagues. They are terrified that if they are seen in my company or that if we are talking around the Coast Guard vehicle-----

Mr. Vincent Farr

It is not just the volunteers and it affects our immediate families and our colleagues in work.

Although it is something people are doing on a voluntary basis for society. We give a commitment that we will follow up on that. We thank the witnesses for coming in and wish them a safe journey home. We will follow up on that with them.

Sitting suspended at 3.15 p.m. and resumed at 3.21 p.m.

Before inviting Mr. Murray to give his opening statement I have to go through some formalities.

The joint committee is now resuming its consideration of the Irish Coast Guard. I would like to welcome witnesses from the Coastal Unit Advisory Group, CUAG, and thank them for their forbearance with time. I welcome Mr. Michael Murray, CUAG co-ordinator and volunteer officer, who is in charge of the Cleggan Coast Guard unit in County Galway; Ms Megan Grindrod from Doolin IRCG, County Clare; Mr. Brendan Cahill from Toe Head IRCG, County Cork; Mr. Colin Murray from Howth IRCG, County Dublin; and Mr. Kieran Gallagher from Ballyglass IRCG, County Mayo.

I will now read the note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if a witness’s statement is potentially defamatory in relation to an indefinable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. For witnesses who are attending remotely from outside of the Leinster House campus, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege. As such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness who is physically present does. Witnesses who are participating in this committee session from a jurisdiction outside the State are advised that they should also be mindful of how domestic law may apply to the evidence they give.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I would remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. Reluctantly, I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to partake from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member who is partaking via MS Teams that, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

If attending the meeting in the committee room, you are asked to exercise personal hygiene to protect yourself and others and from the risk of contracting Covid-19. I will now ask Mr. Murray to make his opening statement.

Mr. Michael Murray

I thank the chair and committee members for the invitation to attend the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications and to assist it in its discussion of the Irish Coast Guard. I am a fisherman and a farmer and I live in Cleggan, Connemara, County Galway. I have been an unpaid volunteer with the Cleggan unit of the Irish Coast Guard for 30 years. I have served as a volunteer officer in charge, OIC, of that unit since 2014. The Cleggan unit is a dual-function unit, in that it is a search and drone unit. The Cleggan unit is not a boat unit, nor does it have a cliff rescue team. I lead a unit of 15 volunteers who respond 24-7 to emergency calls in the north Connemara area. From 2022 to date, we have been tasked to 18 incidents. In 2021, our team responded to 43 incidents in total. This highlights the willingness and commitment of Coast Guard volunteers everywhere who give up their time without hesitation to help others.

I am accompanied today by CUAG members: Mr. Kieran Gallagher, Ballyglass Coast Guard; Ms Megan Grindrod, Doolin Coast Guard; Mr. Colin Murray, Howth Coast Guard; and Mr. Brendan Cahill, Toe Head Coast Guard. I have been a member of CUAG since 2016 and co-ordinator since 2019. In a typical year, CUAG meets quarterly and more frequently if there are agenda items that require a more intensive focus. CUAG is usually consulted by IRCG management when they are preparing standard operational procedures, SOPs, developing operational policy and when headquarters are preparing specifications for equipment and uniforms.

CUAG is a forum that enables the views of Coast Guard members from the 44 teams across the country to be conveyed to IRCG management and to shape policies and procedures where they impact on operational volunteer units in their roles. CUAG can assist OICs and volunteers in dealing with a wide variety of queries which arise in volunteer units. CUAG’s terms of reference have been reviewed and amended as part of the possible recommendation in the Mulvey report. CUAG engaged with management on assessing CUAGs role in providing a representative role in matters relating to serving volunteers, in particular, a representative role in relation to discipline, grievance and complaints and termination of membership.

The new terms of reference reflect the representative roles in these matters. CUAG has now got independent HR supports when required for volunteers, structures for secretariat support for CUAG and training in peer support for HR issues. Training is provided for newly elected members of CUAG.

Again, I thank the committee for the opportunity to contribute the volunteer and CUAG perspective to its examination of the IRCG. I am happy to answer any questions the committee members may wish to ask. In the event that I am unable to answer a specific question, I will endeavour to obtain the information and provide a written answer to the committee as quickly as possible.

I thank Mr. Murray. I will now move to members. I call Deputy Darren O’Rourke. I will be liberal with time.

I thank the Chair and I thank the witnesses for attending today. I do not know if they heard the previous session, which we had earlier-----

Did the witnesses get an opportunity to listen to it?

Mr. Michael Murray

Yes.

That is good.

We had another session, which I think was in November, although time passes quickly-----

With management.

-----with management. This is a continuation of that. The members will have heard some of the concerns in terms of representation and the code of conduct and whether it is fit for purpose or needs to be updated and amended. There is also the issue of its practical implementation. There was a clear sense that in certain circumstances, it was being implemented too rigorously or vigorously and with, I would think, a lack of respect, decency, common sense or suitable attention.

What is CUAG’s perspective of the recent months? They have touched on the potential new role in terms of representation. Can they give us an update on where that has come from and where it is at? I will share my own opinion, which is that the emergence of the volunteers representative group has brought a focus on the Coast Guard and we are starting to see positive change in relation to the Coast Guard. Does CUAG share that opinion? Have they noticed changes in recent months?

What is Mr. Murray’s opinion on the code of conduct? Is it fit for purpose or does it need to be updated or amended? He may have heard the suggestion that there needs to be an overhaul of the disciplinary procedures to provide volunteers with somewhere to turn. Would that be appropriate or needed, and if so, how might it look?

Mr. Murray might direct questions to his colleagues as he sees fit.

Mr. Michael Murray

I will start with what has happened in recent months and where we are now. One of the recommendations in the Mulvey report was to examine CUAG and its role as representing the volunteers, in comparison with being a group that advises on matters relating to Coast Guard structures, standard operating procedures and so on. We have over recent months been working on this and, from that work, new terms of reference have just been published.

Are they just a draft or have they been agreed?

Mr. Michael Murray

They were agreed two days ago. I think everybody will be happier with their content. Through CUAG, we have independent HR representation for volunteers in grievance issues where we feel it is needed for them. As an example, if a disciplinary procedure is started against a volunteer or an OIC, we can now get independent HR assistance to that person, which will be in a position to advise professionally. We in CUAG, obviously, are not HR consultants, so we needed that firm to be available to help and guide these people and to go through everything with them from a HR perspective. That is what was sought and it is what we have got, and we are happy that has happened as part of the process.

In the case of minor complaints, if we call them that, we would like a designated grievance contact to be set up. This would involve an unofficial, friendly chat with the two people involved, whether two volunteers or an OIC and a volunteer, whom we could get in from the Coast Guard cadre. They could be people with or without experience or volunteers; it does not matter. We could ask whoever wished to be in that role to sit down with the people involved, outside of their team. They could come from different areas of the Coast Guard, from wherever we can get them, and they could sit down, chat and try to resolve issues before they get too far. Sometimes, nipping issues in the bud and not letting them fester can help a great deal in any HR matter.

Are these new procedures?

Mr. Michael Murray

Yes.

Was Mr. Murray involved in developing them?

Mr. Michael Murray

Yes. The designated grievance contact aspect was mooted some years ago - I do not know exactly when but I can find out - but it was never brought to fruition. I have been asking for this for a while. I am not sure of the proper word to use but we might call these issues minor ones. A grievance is a grievance, but when a disciplinary matter reaches a step up, CUAG is not in a position to give HR advice and, therefore, we have sought and got an independent HR adviser for the people involved. When I say "independent", I mean independent of management. Volunteers will then feel more comfortable working with him or her, telling their story and getting professional advice, which is what is needed.

Does Mr. Murray believe that reflects CUAG’s contribution in drawing them up?

Mr. Michael Murray

Yes, most definitely.

It is not a case that management came with a fait accompli.

Mr. Michael Murray

No, this was a CUAG recommendation to management after going through the Mulvey report and its recommendations.

There was some criticism of CUAG, although that may be the wrong word, that it was not representative because it contained only OICs. Is it the case it is no longer only OICs?

Mr. Michael Murray

Before 2019, OICs who represented their teams were elected to CUAG. In 2019, the terms of reference were amended to include six OICs and three non-OICs. With the latest terms of reference, we have changed that again, to six OICs and six non-OICs, to be more representative of the volunteers. Even so, it must be borne in mind that an OIC is also a volunteer.

I appreciate that. In fairness, we are trying to play a helpful role and people have come here in good faith. I do not think any of it is intended to be personal or anything else. I acknowledge that given the nature of the discussion that can be difficult, but that is certainly not the approach we are taking.

We acknowledge the fantastic work members of CUAG do as volunteers. That goes without saying.

Yes, I was just trying to pick up on that. Mr. Murray stated there are six OICs and six non-OICs, which, obviously, is an even mix. Is there a standard process for electing them, and if so, is it new or is it a continuation of what was previously the case?

Mr. Michael Murray

The new six will be elected after the OIC conference and it will be up to the CUAG chairman to form that election process-----

What was the case up to now? There were six OICs and three non-OICs. What was the election process for them?

Mr. Michael Murray

Emails were sent to OICs to pass information on to members. Moreover, there is the Coast Guard unit and support newsletter, which------

How were the nine representatives chosen?

Mr. Michael Murray

There was an advertisement of the matter by CUAG to all volunteers. It stated that nominations were being sought from within the unit for selection to join CUAG for a period of three years.

Were people nominated?

Mr. Michael Murray

There was self-nomination.

If there were more nominations than places, who selected them?

Mr. Michael Murray

That happened in the north west, where there were two nominations from Ballyglass and Mulroy. When there were multiple nominees, we pulled their names out of a hat because we did not have any other process.

The six OICs are regionally dispersed.

Mr. Michael Murray

Yes, they are selected geographically and elected at the OIC conference.

How were the three non-OICs selected?

Mr. Michael Murray

They were selected through self-nomination. If there were more than one, it came down to a random draw. Three years ago, when the changes happened, it was very new to us. Because of Covid, we could not meet or get the representatives to meet.

How long has the three OICs aspect been in place?

Mr. Michael Murray

Since 2019.

When they were being elected, did people get an opportunity to meet them?

Mr. Michael Murray

Yes, we meet them at CUAG meetings. The first filing was done mostly online due to Covid. As of recent meetings, when we sit down, anyone who is free-----

How often does CUAG meet?

Mr. Michael Murray

Four times a year and more if needs be.

What has been CUAG's engagement with volunteers throughout the country and with management?

Some of what we are hearing is that it was not a two-way process and much of it was top-down, with a very strict adherence to the code of conduct. I guess across different areas there will be different experiences, depending on local dynamics. Does that reflect Mr. Murray's experience or was there appropriate engagement with management and volunteers? Has there been an improvement or a new commitment to improvement in recent weeks and months?

Mr. Michael Murray

There has been since the Mulvey report and us seeking what we did and what we got. There has definitely been an improvement as far as CUAG and the volunteers in general are concerned. This is an improvement for the volunteers, and everything CUAG does is for the volunteers. Everything we look for is for the volunteers. Sometimes there are battles but such is life and you do not get everything you seek. We try to get as much as possible.

There is the question of the volunteer representative association. How can its concerns be accommodated? Those representatives were before us and the committee will act on a number of their requests. Is there room for improvement in engagement with them, including by the witnesses, management or the Department and Minister? Is there a culture of openness within the Coast Guard for that type of engagement?

Mr. Michael Murray

The Coast Guard and, more important, Coast Guard volunteers have mandated CUAG as their representatives. We feel very strongly about this. When we sought feedback from the volunteers and OICs about what was going on, we got a huge response from them in support of CUAG and its role, basically saying we were the representative group and they did not want any other group speaking for them because they have not been elected or mandated by them. I do not wish to be harsh on the other group and it is not personal but that is the feedback we have had from volunteers. It is 100% positive feedback.

Is there a basis in anything Mr. Murray has heard from the volunteers' representative association? My sense is there has been movement recently. He mentioned the Mulvey report but I am not sure it is a coincidence that these events are happening at the same time. Is there a path forward and what sort of avenue is there for aligning those issues and having them addressed? It seems CUAG has been enhanced and improved in recent weeks on the back of the Mulvey report. Is there more scope to maybe listen to what the volunteer representative association or ordinary volunteers are saying?

Mr. Michael Murray

As part of the new terms of reference, a secretariat link has been supplied to us from the Department so we can engage more with volunteers on the ground directly. That is aside from them having to go through any other process. We can engage on a private basis with volunteers. It will help a volunteer who might feel he or she does not want to go through channels to get to CUAG. If that person did not know how to access it previously, it will be quite clear and open now.

There is a new and independent path. Volunteers may have said in the past they have nowhere to turn but now they have an independent human resources outlet.

Mr. Michael Murray

They would have had the CUAG email address or contact details if they looked for them. We are now going to reach out more to them if we feel not enough people are engaging with us. Having said that, there are not many volunteers who need to contact us about problems. There are clearly problems but there are not that many.

The independent human resources facility is new.

Mr. Michael Murray

Yes, it is.

How does one go about accessing that?

Mr. Michael Murray

It is through CUAG.

Who makes the decision about giving people that option?

Mr. Michael Murray

CUAG.

They may not get it. If someone has a grievance and it is related to industrial relations or human resources, will CUAG automatically provide access to that independent process? Does it have a budget for that?

Mr. Michael Murray

We do not have a budget for it. We have a budget for nothing.

Who will pay for this?

Mr. Michael Murray

The Department will have to pay for it down the road. It must be independent of Coast Guard management.

Has that been signed off?

Mr. Michael Murray

Yes.

Has it been funded? Has the Irish Coast Guard said it will fund this?

Mr. Michael Murray

It must. That is not to give a short answer but it must do it. We can find out more about that if the Chairman wants more detail.

Yes. This is very fresh and it has only come about in the past day or two.

Mr. Michael Murray

Correct. The Coast Guard cannot say it is giving it to us and not fund it.

The process is very important. If Deputy Cathal Crowe does not want to come in now, I can let in somebody else. We have plenty of time.

Is this the first or second session?

It is the second session.

I will come in now if that is okay.

We have heard from the Irish Coast Guard representative association. I only asked the Deputy so as to allow him draw his breath. If he wants to, he can go ahead immediately.

Yes. I apologise. We all have overlapping roles and I am on the health committee, which is dealing with the proposal on the maternity hospital today. I have not been in this room at all today and I apologise for that. I have read the opening statements.

Much of the genesis of this body of work relates to the Doolin Coast Guard base in my county and concerns we had about how it was operating. A process got under way and there was independent mediation. Ultimately, the facility was stood down and now it has been reconfigured. Last week, in advance of these meetings taking place, I received a series of emails from volunteers at the Doolin Coast Guard. I will speak in general terms rather than getting into individual cases.

Please do.

When the base was reconstituted, some members came back and others did not. Politically, we stood back from the process, which had to be independent and have integrity. The process has concluded and the people who were not readmitted are wondering if there is any recourse for them to re-enter the Irish Coast Guard at any level or on any base, preferably the local one at Doolin. Does Mr. Murray know?

Mr. Michael Murray

As far as I am aware, the guys that were stood back got an email offering them the chance to come back again or to apply to come back, I should say. They have been given the opportunity to return.

That is not my understanding but we can look into it further. I reiterate that we stood back from a process and took our hands off it entirely. This committee has been very involved with the Irish Coast Guard and meeting groups but we felt that to reconstitute any station, we really needed to take political hands off it and leave this to independent people. That has happened but the correspondence I have received lately is that some people were not taken back in. They want to know what is open to them now. I am unaware of that correspondence alluded to by Mr. Murray.

To add to the Deputy's point, our understanding is all those people were stood down and then certain people were asked to come back. I do not think everyone was asked to come back. Some have come back and others have decided not to come back. A cohort of eight has decided to go as a collective. The deadline was last Friday and they sent an email in that regard. That is the factual position as we understand it.

Yes, that is how I understand it as well. We must stand back from that but these people are entitled to ask, given the years they have served, why, how and what happens next. I suppose they are some of the questions that will remain unanswered after today but I hope the committee can get more substantial answers in that respect.

We undertook a body of work relating to the Irish Coast Guard and it seems certain competencies were being watered down. That was the view of the volunteers in contact with us.

One of them is rope work and harness work. They did a lot of this, and I am speaking from the knowledge I have of the station in Doolin. This would have been undertaken off a heavy-loaded girder across the roof. These are vital training skills that they regularly employed in the real environment on cliff faces and so forth, but they were told not to do that. Is that still the case?

Mr. Michael Murray

As far as I am aware, as I said in my opening statement. I am not from a cliff team so I would not know the ins and outs of that, but we are talking about climbing beams here and they had to be inspected by a company to make sure they were safe to be worked on in these stations over winter or whenever they would use them. That is a process that has not been concluded. I do not know if it has been done for Doolin yet. CUAG has been looking for that, or looking for it to be concluded successfully. The difficulty was getting the climbing beams certified.

Would Mr. Murray say there are skill deficiencies in Coast Guard stations?

Mr. Michael Murray

No.

When a skill is there, is it maintained through continuous training?

Mr. Michael Murray

In as much a way as possible. Definitely, it is up to every volunteer to maintain their skills and it is up to the officers and the training officers to make sure their teams have their skills up to the maximum.

Did any communication come from the Department of Transport and the hierarchy of the Irish Coast Guard to say that certain operational procedures were to be abandoned and passed over to local fire services? Specifically with regard to cliff rescues, was that ever communicated to Coast Guard units in the past two years?

Mr. Michael Murray

Personally, I do not know.

Mr. Colin Murray

The cliff skills from the Coast Guard units were stood down last year due to systemic problems in headquarters with training and management of equipment. The problem did not come from the Coast Guard units themselves. Then an independent external auditor came and checked all the cliff units for their operations and, as far as I know, every unit passed it. Speaking for Howth, we passed it as well. All the units are back on the board now.

That is good. Cliff rescues are possible again wherever there is a trained crew.

Mr. Colin Murray

Yes.

Another issue that arose, which we have discussed in the past, and I am not from a maritime background, is that certain vessels require certain thresholds of training. If one has not reached that benchmark, one cannot take a vessel out beyond the harbour area. Is it the case in any of the Coast Guard stations at present that the station has a nice, shiny, new vessel but it cannot be taken beyond the harbour area for real-life scenarios?

Mr. Michael Murray

I think the Deputy got false information there. He is probably talking about Kilkee, if I am not mistaken. No, it is not true.

That one was resolved and we were made aware of that. However, on a national basis, is there a case where there is key equipment available but the crew cannot take it to water?

Mr. Michael Murray

Not that I am aware of.

Mr. Colin Murray

Not that we know of. All boat crews have to do a minimum number of launches and a minimum number of hours on a boat to maintain their competency. If somebody does not do that, the person can be removed from the crew. We all would agree with that. If boat crews do not go out with their first aid, manual handling, VHF licences and with the necessary skill set, they will be removed from boat crews. All volunteers will agree with that. It is incumbent on the volunteer personally to maintain those hours and also on unit management to make sure facilities are available for those volunteers.

Are those hours sufficient? What I mean, and Mr. Colin Murray could dispute this and I have to bow to his knowledge of it, is that I was shown a RIB vessel some time ago and I was told that if one was in the Irish Naval Service one could be weeks or months getting trained to go out on it, but that in the Irish Coast Guard, where training is more limited, one is expected to go out and the hours to stay up to speed with one's training are far fewer. Obviously, the Naval Service is a full-time service. However, if the Coast Guard is manning the same vessels, are its members adequately trained with enough hours?

Mr. Colin Murray

I can only speak for my unit, but certainly yes. As officer in command, OIC, I would not let anybody go to sea unless I was happy that the person had completed the minimum hours and the minimum competencies. The Coast Guard has standards for boat launches, boat crews and standards of boats, and they are quite strict. I am not familiar with the Naval Service standards. To be a coxswain in the coast guard in Howth could take five years.

I have a final question and perhaps Mr. Cahill will come in on this as well. I do not think any of the committee members are from a maritime background, unless there is something about them that I do not know.

A couple of you in Clare came in with the Spanish Armada no doubt.

I like looking out at the sea anyway. One thing has struck me all along. We were receiving information and asking questions. That is our job as public representatives. However, the core issue I kept returning to was that morale was seen to be low, divisions were seen in some units and there seemed to be a separation between central management and volunteer units. Some people also said they did not feel they were being represented by CUAG. There were organisational and HR problems, and that ultimately resulted in one unit having to be stood down. How is all that being dealt with? I was formerly a schoolteacher and I had to get on with the teachers around me, but it was not a life or death scenario, whereas when the witnesses are out on a rescue mission at sea, they would have to get on with the people around them who are manning the vessel with them or holding ropes or apparatus. How is that going and what has the Irish Coast Guard done in the past six months to boost morale, to improve connectivity between headquarters and units and to deal with the representational issues and divisions? What has happened and what can the witnesses tell us to appease our concerns in that regard?

Mr. Colin Murray

We discussed a lot of that with Deputy O'Rourke at the beginning. The terms of reference of CUAG-----

You might elaborate on how the terms of reference have changed because you did not get the opportunity.

Mr. Colin Murray

I will refer that to Mr. Michael Murray.

Mr. Michael Murray

They have changed so we can represent the volunteers more. Previously, it was an advisory capacity. We would help and represent and advise them that way. Now, we have power in that we can get them an independent HR consultant to talk to them and go through the situation or case with them, as needs be and if they want it. That is a huge plus in itself. We have been supplied with a secretariat so we can liaise with volunteers and get them to work with us in contacting the volunteers on the ground and letting them know what we are doing and what we can do for them.

Is it now a happy organisation?

Mr. Michael Murray

I would not say one is happy all the time, but it is in a better place.

Months ago when all this emerged, another colleague from Clare, Deputy Carey, and I received floods of emails from the county and we addressed them in this forum. However, even as that meeting was taking place, I recall that my telephone was beeping. There were Coast Guard units around the country watching proceedings here, and they are probably tuned in today as well, and they were sending emails suggesting questions because they had the same problems wherever they were. What I believed to have been a localised problem appeared to be way more widespread. The witnesses have a difficult job in trying to represent all that and gather it together. It was not even a homogenous position in Clare. There were very different views and opinions, so the witnesses have a very difficult job. We would love to hear that relations between the hierarchy and the volunteers have improved. It seemed to me that day, and we had to ask them to come here, that they were remote from us and they felt they were remote from their units. I would love to hear that this has improved significantly. Based on recent correspondence in Clare, I do not know if it has.

I will conclude with that. I thank the witnesses for all they are doing.

The next speaker is Deputy Carey. There are four members to contribute and we have to be out of here by 4.30 p.m. so there are eight minutes each, at most.

I was present for the earlier session and I had to step out to another meeting. I have read the witnesses' opening statements and I was a participant in the most recent meeting we had on Coast Guard services. It is clear that morale in Coast Guard units is fairly low. We heard that from the earlier witnesses who appeared before the committee from the ICGVRA.

Would Mr. Murray accept that morale is poor within the Coast Guard?

Mr. Michael Murray

I would accept what was said about morale being poor or low within the ICGVRA, but how many volunteers are on the group the Deputy spoke to?

I am asking the questions of Mr. Murray.

Mr. Michael Murray

I am sorry, but my point is-----

I am not sure if Mr. Murray was tuned in to the previous session. Just for his information, the witnesses stated that there were 100 members from widespread coastal communities, from Mayo down around the west coast and back around the east coast. They would have a lot more members who would also put their heads above the parapet but they are fearful to do that because they are subjected to harassment and are subjected to bullying and different issues. This is why they will not come forward. We have heard that at different levels. This is what people are saying to me.

I put it to Mr. Murray, as a person who is on this advisory committee, that I believe it is the wrong term. It is not a representative group. This is what the other group is trying to do: to actually represent people. It is ironic that the terms and conditions changed in the weekend before this hearing. That change is welcome but, for me, the organisation is constituted in the wrong way. It is not at arm's length from management. This is what volunteers are saying to me. I welcome the fact that it is being reconstituted, that the organisation will have access to a HR consultant and that there is a secretariat available. How many years has it taken to bring it to that particular point? To get on CUAG, who does one need to be? Is there a vote? There are some ordinary volunteers on its now as well, but how did they end up on it? The group we spoke to in the previous session did not know how those ordinary members got on to CUAG.

Mr. Michael Murray

I will repeat what I said a few minutes ago regarding how does an ordinary volunteer get on to CUAG. It is part of the newsletter that is being sent out. It was in the newsletter as an advertisement. I have it here in front of me.

When was that?

Mr. Michael Murray

It was in 2019. It gave people the opportunity to become members of CUAG if they so wished.

Prior to that, they would not have been. Just the opposite-----

Mr. Michael Murray

Prior to that, it was six OICs on CUAG. In 2019, it was changed to nine, six and three.

Who is the chairman of CUAG?

Mr. Michael Murray

I am the chairman at the moment.

Section 5(c) in the terms of reference for CUAG, dated 10 December 2019, states that any volunteer member who is undergoing a disciplinary or grievance procedure is required to stand down from the group pending completion of the process and any associated actions. Can Mr. Murray confirm if any current member of CUAG is in a grievance procedure?

Mr. Michael Murray

I can confirm, as far as I am aware, that there are not.

Can Mr. Murray state that there is a need for a representative group or does is he of the view that CUAG can perform all the functions that are necessary?

Mr. Michael Murray

CUAG can perform all the functions that are necessary, and more so after the latest terms of reference. We have been given more power, more help and more guidance in the ability to be able to do it. I must also add that we have been mandated by the majority of volunteers in the Irish Coast Guard to do what we do and to represent them. They have made it quite clear to us. We are talking about 900 volunteers that we represent, and who we want to represent, in the best way we can. That is what we intend to do and will do. We have always done our best with the volunteers in getting everything we can for them.

Have the modified terms of reference been published and circulated?

Mr. Michael Murray

Not yet. They were only signed off two days ago.

Does Mr. Murray envisage further change in that code of conduct or has he advocated for further change?

Mr. Michael Murray

As part of the terms of reference and in the context of our discussions, we made it clear that we would first see how it works. If there is something that is not working, we could go back to it again and change it if needs be. If something needs to be added or taken out, that is open. We gave a commitment on that.

I thank Mr. Murray.

The first issue I want to address - I do not want an answer now - is that I have been led to believe that there is a member of CUAG who has an outstanding grievance that has yet to be resolved.

No names.

I do not want and answer today. I would like Mr. Murray to take the time to think about the matter. This is an Oireachtas committee. Mr Murray might communicate with the Chairman to confirm whether that is true or false.

Mr. Michael Murray

I can confirm that it is not true, as far as I am aware at this moment.

I am saying that Mr. Murray can go back to his organisation and then come back to us on the matter.

Mr. Murray talks about representing the members and about a mandate. Where was Mr Murray elected? When did the 900 members cast a vote to elect any of the witnesses?

Mr. Michael Murray

I was elected through the OIC conference. I was elected as an OIC.

That is not a mandate from the 900 members. Mr. Murray told us that he has a mandate from the 900 members. He does not.

Mr. Michael Murray

Does the Senator mean as being an elected officer?

Mr. Murray said that he represents the 900 members and that he has a mandate for it. He does not.

Mr. Michael Murray

Where that came from, and where we got evidence on that, is from the emails that were sent out sporadically to CUAG and management. I believe some Deputies and Senators either were or were going to be copied on those. They felt and acknowledged that CUAG was their representative body.

I have been involved in representational trade unionism for most of my life. One must be elected by the majority of an organisation in order to claim that one has a mandate. Mr. Murray does not have that.

Mr. Michael Murray

Sorry, yes.

Let me move on. There are five witnesses here today. When did any of them ever represent a member of the ICGVRA at a disciplinary hearing?

Mr. Michael Murray

At a disciplinary hearing.

Mr. Michael Murray

We cannot do so. Not under the previous terms of reference. It has now changed in that we can help them as much as we can.

Up until the new terms of reference were agreed, CUAG had no representational role.

Mr. Michael Murray

Only in an advisory capacity.

But it had no representational role. If I was a volunteer facing a disciplinary committee up until these new terms of reference came into being, I would have had nobody to turn to.

Mr. Michael Murray

Up to this, a person would turn to CUAG and put it to them. They would make representations on behalf of the person.

Would they come to a hearing and represent me?

Mr. Michael Murray

No. They could come and sit down beside the person at a hearing, but they could not advise the person at the said hearing.

What if my grievance or my disciplinary procedure were the result of CUAG taking a case against me? I would hardly have CUAG sitting beside me then, would I?

Mr. Michael Murray

No. The Senator is totally correct. That is why it has been changed to being independent of Irish Coast Guard management and independent of anybody else in order that the volunteer who needs the help is now getting the help.

I do not want Mr. Murray to take up my questioning in the wrong way. The work CUAG does is fantastic, but we need to get to the bottom of this. For me, new terms of reference arising a few days before the committee has a hearing stinks to the high heavens.

I want to move on to training. What external body certifies the training done by members of the Coast Guard? Is it City & Guilds or is it SOLAS?

Mr. Michael Murray

It is totally different in the context of different aspects of training. There is boat training, cliff training and drone training. I am not sure, but it is certified in all aspects.

Mr. Michael Murray

I can speak about drones. The drone training provider certifies everybody who-----

I am not talking about the drone training provider. I spent 25 years of my life in further education. I am referring to an external certifying body such as City & Guilds or the National Maritime College of Ireland in Cork? Who certifies the training done by members of the Coast Guard?

Mr. Michael Murray

Is the Senator referring to boats?

Mr. Brendan Cahill

The prerequisite to start boat training is a personal survival training course. That is carried out at the National Maritime College of Ireland in Ringaskiddy and certified by it.

Does every member go through that?

Mr. Brendan Cahill

Every member who wishes to step onto a Coast Guard boat has to undergo the training successfully.

That is one of the modules.

Mr. Michael Murray

First aid would be Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council, PHECC, course.

Would it be fair to say that the witnesses are self-certifying in some cases?

Mr. Brendan Cahill

There are regular assessments. Every two years, one has to undergo-----

Would it be fair to say that the witnesses are self-certifying? What external body comes in to look at the performance every two years?

Mr. Brendan Cahill

An individual who is affiliated with the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council.

Who is that individual?

Mr. Brendan Cahill

It is an instructor.

I am trying to find out if the training is on the national qualifications framework. Can I be certain that people in the Coast Guard have training certified by City and Guilds, SOLAS, the National Maritime College or a university? Do they have a certificate that states they are qualified?

Mr. Brendan Cahill

The training in first aid is provided through the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council. That is recertified every two years. The personal survival training techniques are recertified every four years, through the National Maritime College. Further development in boat training involves passing Irish Sailing Association, ISA, basic levels, including, for example, crew taking a basic powerboat course, an advanced powerboat course, and coastal navigation courses. All of those would be administered by somebody certified by the Irish Sailing Association to qualify people.

Is it administered by, but not certified by?

Mr. Brendan Cahill

They would have to certify people as being competent. An examination would be carried out, including practical and written elements.

Are the witnesses aware of a course that was provided for coxswains as a demonstration of what a programme would be like? About 14 coxswains took the programme. I understand that two passed, four required additional training but would pass, and the remainder failed.

Mr. Brendan Cahill

I am not aware of that.

We have to get to the bottom of that.

Mr. Michael Murray

We can get back to the Senator about that.

I would appreciate it. It was a pilot programme for coxswains. The company that did it is no longer working for the Coast Guard, which is a matter of great concern to me. The witnesses are an advisory group, so their job is to bring issues of concern to management. Tests were done on the Rescue 400 life jacket in Ringaskiddy in Cork. The witnesses are aware that the life jacket failed more than one test, yet it remained in service for the best part of six years.

Mr. Brendan Cahill

I carried out a test of the Rescue 400 life jackets with my unit while on a boat exercise on 27 October 2019. In the course of that test, the four life jackets that were tested failed to function correctly. I immediately withdrew the unit from boat operations. I contacted a senior member of the marine management for the Coast Guard. He immediately grounded the boat. Within three days, all boat units in the Coast Guard were grounded. I submitted the life jackets to Coast Guard headquarters for testing, having ensure that a chain of evidence was available, with no interference with the life jackets. They were forwarded to headquarters as they had malfunctioned. As a result, all boat units were grounded and until such time as an acceptable replacement for those life jackets was in place, boat operations were suspended.

When did the acceptable life jackets come?

Mr. Brendan Cahill

Approximately three months later. I do not have an exact date. The volume of life jackets required meant there were supply issues, because the life jackets that replaced the Rescue 400 life jackets were high end.

What were they replaced with?

Mr. Brendan Cahill

Crewsavers.

Crewsaver life jackets, which the RNLI also uses.

Mr. Brendan Cahill

They are the same specifications.

I am sorry for putting Mr. Cahill on the spot. He has done his job. He found that these life jackets were dangerous. My understanding is that they were not replaced until 2019 or 2020.

Mr. Brendan Cahill

As I said, all boat operations were immediately suspended, given that the life jackets-----

Is Mr. Cahill telling me that the boats did not put to sea for four or five years?

Mr. Brendan Cahill

It was not four or five years. I conducted the test on 27 October 2019. I cannot say the exact time but would say that for approximately three months, boat operations had to be suspended until a small quantity of replacement jackets were put in place. They were brought to units on a phased basis as they became available.

We bought these Rescue 400 life jackets and a short time later, following a test, Mr. Cahill said they were not safe.

Mr. Brendan Cahill

I think they had been in service for a number of years at that point.

I admire Mr. Cahill for testing them and for having the courage to stand up.

Why did Mr. Cahill test them?

Mr. Brendan Cahill

I will describe the system for life jacket servicing in the Coast Guard as it was and still is. Boat units are allocated a number of life jackets depending on the number of boats and crew available to the unit. Our old allocation was 14 life jackets. Normally, the life jackets are serviced every 12 months. Prior to them being sent for servicing, a replacement set of life jackets was sent to the unit so that it would not be off the board when the life jackets were gone. The replacements were sent to us. I decided that since the unit jackets were going back for servicing, it was a good time to give people experience of life jacket inflation, because it is quite a violent event. It gave them experience in the water.

Did Mr. Cahill test the ones that went back?

Mr. Brendan Cahill

We only tested four. The other life jackets were then isolated as per the instructions of management.

How long were those life jackets operated for?

Mr. Brendan Cahill

They were operating for approximately 12 months prior to the test.

Why was that not picked up by the Irish Coast Guard prior to them coming to the volunteers?

Mr. Brendan Cahill

I could not say.

I think the volunteers were lucky that Mr. Cahill decided to do that manoeuvre with the four life jackets. That is a separate issue which relates to procurement. We brought that up in respect of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. We will not go into that here.

What I see here is an officer who had concerns, an opportunity to test something, and the courage of his convictions to stand over the failure of the life jackets. It is probably due to Mr. Cahill that we got the RNLI life jackets back. We had been using the RNLI life jacket before the Rescue 400 came into service and now we are back to the RNLI life jacket.

As I said, I come from a teaching background. I was involved in trade unionism with teachers all my life. Within the Teachers Union of Ireland are the Principals and Deputy Principals Association and the teachers' union. What objection could the witnesses possibly have to a representative body being put in place for the men and women who serve under their command?

Mr. Michael Murray

It is our view that it is not wanted by the majority of volunteers. That is the feedback we are getting.

Some of the proposal the association was putting forward today was that the six volunteers, non-officers, would be elected by the representative volunteer body on to the Coastal Unit Advisory Group, CUAG, and that there would be an alteration in the terms of reference of CUAG to be more of a representative body. We have not seen the details of this but work has been carried out in this regard.

There will also be a look at the process in respect of appeals, and whatever, and work has also been done on that. Would CUAG object to that if it was a way to resolve this? Mr. Murray must accept that the fact of this representative body being established tells us something is not operating smoothly, in whatever language one wants to use. Many of these people appear to be very reasonable so could Mr. Murray not see this operating here, where one sees it with various other bodies? CUAG would still continue to be the representative body but it would have a mechanism by which the volunteers could be elected on to CUAG.

Mr. Michael Murray

We have a mechanism where the volunteers can be elected on to CUAG. There are six volunteers and six officers in command, OICs.

Who votes for these representatives?

Mr. Michael Murray

They are self-nominated.

There is no vote. Remember now that in that situation, there could be 12 volunteers. Suddenly then, of those 12 volunteers, six are picked out of a hat. The question, in terms of democracy in just looking at this, is that our role here is to be of assistance.

Mr. Michael Murray

I would like to see a formula put in place that the six non-OICs can be voted in by the cadre of 900 serving volunteers. That is exactly what I intend to do, as chairman of CUAG, which is to make 100% sure that the volunteers have a vote on the 26 nominees, or whatever number that may be, who want to fill those positions. That will not be an issue and is not a problem.

When the terms of reference are fully fleshed out, will Mr. Murray come back to the committee as to how exactly they are going to work?

Sorry Chairman, but can I just come in here for a moment, please? I am shooting over the heads of our witnesses at this stage but there should be an independent survey of the 900 volunteers to determine what they want with respect to representation. Questions have arisen as a result of-----

We can take that up as a committee.

-----our committee’s hearings on this issue which can be taken up directly with the Coast Guard. I appreciate the time that Mr. Murray has taken to come in here and I commend him on the work he does. I do not want Mr. Murray to feel that he has been given too hard a time when he was in here but it is the nature of the thing.

Senator Craughwell is going to get me killed. I have three further members to be brought in-----

The Chairman has the floor now.

-----to the discussion, namely, Senator Buttimer and Deputies Ó Murchú and McNamara. The meeting shall run to 4.35 p.m., but no later. I ask members now to stay within time. Senator Buttimer will have four minutes, there will be a further four minutes for Deputy Ó Murchú and then I will have to confine Deputy McNamara-----

I will not delay because much of what I wanted to ask has already been said.

I want first to thank all of the members of CUAG for being here. I thank Mr. Murray for his chairmanship and presentation and Mr. Cahill for his work in Cork. We have two divergent roads here, Chairman. I ask Mr. Murray, in the context of the minutes of meetings and morale, where I am sure he heard the proceedings of the earlier meeting, how he would describe morale as the whole issue around trust seems to have been broken. whether this is by minutes or outcomes not having been recorded properly?

My other point is on the whole issue of the nominations and how can we be assured of adequate and proper representation?

Mr. Michael Murray

I will start with the morale question first. Like every other organisation, morale goes up and down, I imagine. When we had lifejacket issues, to be honest about it, morale was low then. Nobody could be happy about aspects of what happened.

We can say that it was a mess and should not have happened.

Mr. Michael Murray

No, it should not.

The Coast Guard is lucky that Mr. Cahill took it upon himself.

Mr. Michael Murray

Yes, we were, with our volunteers. The morale was low but things are improving. We cannot go around with our heads down. We need to have our heads up and be happy and most of the volunteers I speak to are happy and delighted to be volunteers. If there are HR issues, that is where the morale becomes low and where questions of morale come into it. Solving that is never going to be easy but it needs to be tackled in the best way we possibly can. With the new system we will have in place, one would hope that this will not necessarily solve it but will help in most of it and solve it in as much as we possibly can.

Chairman, my comments are not in any way meant to be judgemental about anybody but in the context of the previous presentation we had, which Mr. Murray saw, how would Mr. Murray describe the nature of that presentation from his world view?

Mr. Michael Murray

My apologies but I could not hear the Senator.

Basically, the Senator said that in the context of our hearings and from what Mr. Murray saw of the previous hearing, how would he describe that and what would his overview be of it, in his own words?

Mr. Michael Murray

In respect of the previous hearing, there are disgruntled people there and it is as simple as that, which we cannot deny. Did things go right for them? Probably not in their view. Did things go democratically in terms of procedure for them? I assume that they did. That was not within our remit, okay.

That was one of the discussions we had about this within the current rules and structures. The question is whether they are fit for purpose. That is one of the questions which we as a committee will have to consider.

Mr. Michael Murray

They have been looked at and changed and from our view-----

They have now but they have not come into being as yet.

They have not, or have they?

On the terms of reference, who changed them? Was it the management or was it CUAG and were all of the volunteers consulted on these changes?

Mr. Michael Murray

It was we who had them changed from the representations we received from volunteers up and around the country. We sent an email to every volunteer twice to give them a second chance to have an input into this. We took all of that feedback back to ourselves.

Can Mr. Murray tell me when CUAG did that, please?

Mr. Michael Murray

We did that after the Mulvey report. When Mr. Mulvey-----

Will these terms of reference, for instance, go back out for further public consultation with the volunteers?

Mr. Michael Murray

No, we have taken on board everything that was said to us and, to be honest, I believe we have got everything that we have looked for.

Have those changes, for instance, been agreed in consultation with management? This is the point raised by Deputy Carey here. Is this a decision of CUAG or one of the management of the Irish Coast Guard?

Mr. Michael Murray

It is a decision of CUAG.

In fairness, the previous terms of reference were signed off by both management and CUAG. I presume it will be in the same format in that it will be management and CUAG. Is that correct?

They would both have to agree then. Yes, they would. Is Senator Buttimer finished?

I am okay Chairman. I thank our witnesses for attending and for their commitment and dedication. We all participate in this meeting in the spirit of trying to make the Coast Guard a better place and I thank them for that.

I call Deputy Ó Murchú and Deputy McNamara then. They will have to be mindful-----

I will try to keep this as quick as possible. Obviously, we can see that we are starting from a bad place in terms of where relationships are and I am not going to get into the ins and outs of all of those legacy issues that our witnesses have argued over and back. We now have the changed operating procedures.

Mr. Murray spoke about a nomination procedure where he believes that the HR and industrial relations, IR, issues have been dealt with to some degree. There is probably an element of not only a need to interact with the 900 volunteers, more so than we might have had to do if we had not gone through the period which we just have, but how does CUAG propose to do that? What sort of outreach are we looking at?

Then, on representation, this is about ensuring that there is a sufficient amount of representation where people are adequately happy, given that we are not starting from the point at which we would like to be.

Mr. Michael Murray

We have been given a commitment that we will have access to the email addresses of every volunteer, so that we can get information out to them whenever we feel they need to know something. It has to be as inclusive as possible. It is as simple as that. In this day and age, I presume reaching out to volunteers through email is the easiest way to access them. We have a means of accessing them now. Previously, we would have to send an email to the maritime services division, MSD, and ask it to send it out. Now we will have the opportunity to send it out directly without anybody seeing it or looking at it. That will be-----

Is that the proposal for how CUAG's interactions will be conducted in terms of dealing with outstanding grievances and putting together some sort of process regarding nominations, etc? How will CUAG make a determination that everybody has landed at a place where they are sufficiently happy that there is a fit-for-purpose outfit?

Mr. Michael Murray

I think we are heading there with the new terms of reference.

I get that, but Mr. Murray says that most of this will be conducted by email and that there will be a review process and a period of time for reporting back. At that stage, it will be necessary to get to some process or forum whereby people can at least sign off, for the want of a better term. Mr. Murray needs that as much as anybody else at this stage. It is not only doing the right thing or having that full interaction, it is also a case of being seen to do it.

Mr. Michael Murray

I feel that time is the only answer there really. It is not going to happen overnight. We are going to have to be given time to see if everything that we are seeking to be put in place is working. Hopefully it will. If it is not, we have been told by HQ that we can look at it again and amend it if need be. If it does need to be changed, CUAG is there to change it, and we will change it.

To conclude on this point, the committee will need some sort of synopsis regarding what the battle plan would look like. Could we be kept informed to some degree, as CUAG goes through the process?

We are at a slight disadvantage here, in that the ink is only barely dry on the new terms of reference. To be honest, that is not adequate for us. We have come in as honest brokers on this matter. We will write to CUAG, but we expect a detailed follow-up on the terms of reference and the procedures, and what it is willing to do in terms of representation and the voting mechanisms. We will be taking note of progress, with the Minister and the Department, and the Irish Coast Guard itself as well. We will give CUAG that space.

Mr. Michael Murray

I want to answer you honestly on this, Chairman: CUAG is more than willing to answer those questions. We are very happy to get them.

That is fine. I thank Mr. Murray.

Have the recommendations regarding CUAG contained in the relatively recent Mulvey report been implemented?

Mr. Michael Murray

Yes.

Including on the representative role in disciplinary hearings?

Mr. Michael Murray

Yes.

Mr. Michael Murray

Yes.

I thought it was advisory.

Mr. Michael Murray

Yes.

That is not what the Mulvey report recommended.

Mr. Michael Murray

We have been given a HR role for volunteers, in an advisory capacity, in that we can advise them, not on the HR side of it, but we can get them independent, professional advice.

If I might say, it is a slight twist. We would like CUAG to move into the representational space. In the space at this stage, volunteers can now get support from an external HR consultant to represent their views but the question is whether CUAG moves into this space and attends hearings with their fellow volunteers.

Or a legal representative. For example, some of the unions get lawyers to attend WRC hearings. Could CUAG get a solicitor's firm, and counsel if necessary, to attend on behalf of a member?

Mr. Michael Murray

No, not yet.

Then the Mulvey report has not been implemented. The next question I have is whether the recommendations with regard to the Doolin Coast Guard station have been implemented.

Mr. Michael Murray

Yes, but not all of them. Most of them have. I think there were ten recommendations. I am trying to think off the top of my head. There were eight recommendations and I think six of them have been implemented.

And the others have not.

Mr. Michael Murray

Yes.

I know we are pressed for time, so I thank Mr. Murray.

We will write to CUAG in the context of the new procedures, but we will also seek an update in the context of the implementation of the recommendations of the Mulvey report.

Mr. Michael Murray

Yes. That would be helpful.

What we are seeking to do is to get to a position where it is a better Coast Guard. The volunteers are genuine people who were genuinely upset. We want to get a process in place so that people can work through it. We will write to Mr. Murray about the overall context and also about the Mulvey report, dealing with the concerns of the Irish Coast Guard Volunteers Representative Association. We thank the witnesses for coming and for their work.

Mr. Michael Murray

I thank the committee for giving us the opportunity.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.36 p.m. until 5 p.m. on Tuesday, 17 May 2022.
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