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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 18 May 2022

Future of An Post Network: Discussion

The purposes of this meeting are to discuss the future of the An Post network with the Irish Postmasters Union and, separately, to meet with the chair designate of Bus Átha Cliath. The meeting will be held in two sessions. On behalf of the committee, I welcome to the first session, which is to discuss the future of the An Post network, the Irish Postmasters Union representatives: Mr. Ned O'Hara, general secretary; Mr. Sean Martin, president; and Mr. Ciarán McEntee, vice president.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statement is potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. For witnesses attending remotely outside the Leinster House campus, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present. Witnesses participating from a jurisdiction outside the State should be mindful of their domestic law and how it may apply to the evidence they give.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they be physically present in the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. Reluctantly, I will not permit a member to participate when they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. I ask any member participating via Microsoft Teams that, prior to making their contribution, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus. Members attending in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I invite Mr. O'Hara to make his opening statement.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

We thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to attend. I am joined by Sean Martin, postmaster in Tramore, County Waterford and president of the union; and Ciarán McEntee, postmaster in Three Mile House, County Monaghan and vice president. We are pleased to appear before the committee and hope our contribution will help in its deliberations.

The Irish Postmasters Union, IPU, is the representative body for postmasters in Ireland and celebrates its 100th anniversary this year. We represent 90% of Ireland’s postmasters. Most post offices - and many people do not know this - are independent businesses run by postmasters under contractual arrangements first developed in 1907. We are independent small and medium enterprises contracted by An Post to run post offices. We are not State employees. We are not paid a fixed salary but make our living on a fee-per-transaction basis.

The post office network is a well-established national asset and is ever evolving. It is the largest retail network in Ireland with 920 branches. Some 875 post offices are run by independent postmasters who operate as small businesses and provide employment for almost 1,500 full-time equivalents.

The network provides a range of traditional postal, financial, e-commerce and Government services to over 1.3 million people, or 28% of the population, every week. The key services provided through the network are mails and parcels; social welfare payments; An Post Money, involving current account, credit card and personal and green loans; everyday banking for commercial banks, involving lodgements and withdrawals for Allied Irish Bank and Bank of Ireland; Government services such as television and dog licences, Garda fines and passport express; financial services for the National Treasury Management Agency, including prize bonds, fixed-terms savings, regular savings and deposit accounts. In the commercial arena we provide retail products for bill pay, money transfers, Western Union, national lottery, gift vouchers, mobile phone top-ups, iTunes vouchers and the Postmobile service.

We serve a valuable social purpose and play an important role in local communities. We act as an anchor providing a local government, business and social presence. It connects family and friends, fosters democracy and is a key part of our emergency and national infrastructure. We provide an essential public service in urban and rural communities, helping to address financial and social exclusion as we fill the gap left by retreating banks, Garda stations and struggling high streets. We operate in places where other retailers do not and we offer services that other retailers do not. We are one of the last institutions offering five and a half days of face-to-face service. In many communities, the post office is the last remaining entity for financial services as retail banks reduce their branch networks or withdraw from the market entirely.

Throughout the Covid19 pandemic, postmasters defined the essence of public and community services, keeping the network open to ensure the continued distribution of cash to customers and the economy. We operated without interruption providing a full range of financial services, vital social welfare payments and much needed business continuity that supported the national economy.

It is hard to put a price and value on this service - indeed, it is actually priceless - but the social value of the post office has been independently valued to be at least €344 million in a report by Grant Thornton that was published in 2020. The union recently published a new report by Grant Thornton, which found that the network has the capacity to provide solutions to modern challenges. It identified a range of Government services that can be provided through the network that will support Government in achieving its central policies, including rural development, remote working and climate action.

On the provision of everyday banking services, approximately 540 post offices in Ireland are located in areas where there are no banks within 5 km. Accessible banking for everyone should be a basic right and it can be met through our extensive network.

In the same way, with Garda stations closed in many communities and to alleviate the administrative burden on gardaí, identification services for passports and driving licences and the maintenance of the electoral register can and should be provided by local post offices. The network is ideally placed to ensure that people have the option of person-to-person offline access to vital services, particularly for those who do not transact online. Covid-19 has highlighted that significant numbers of people are not online and many leaned on their post office for services, information and advice. There is an opportunity for the network to become a green hub for the processing and delivery of retrofitting grants and delivery of vital services and actions to achieve our climate targets and a low-carbon economy.

A re-think of how the post office network is being funded for its role in supporting wider social and community goals is now urgently required. The Grant Thornton report recommended that the Government invest with urgency in the post office network and pointed to a €12 million funding gap which needs to be met by Government investment in order to retain the valuable services provided by postmasters. This funding gap, which was previously estimated at €17 million, has been reduced by €5 million through the efforts of postmasters investing in our businesses, working with An Post, getting trained, securing additional services and responding to community needs.

We are reaching a crisis point. That is the stark reality. The Irish post office network is at a critical juncture. We now need a firm commitment from Government that it will pay a contract fee of at least €12 million for the delivery of essential services and we need that commitment in the coming weeks or post offices will close. We receive calls daily from burnt-out postmasters in all areas of the country who are seriously considering their immediate future. Many local post offices - large and small, urban and rural - will likely be forced to close if the financial conditions under which they operate do not change. If Government does not take action and take it very soon, large scale resignations - the term we use is "unrestrained resignations" - and closures will be inevitable.

Throughout the pandemic, postmasters never once shut the doors. We more than proved our worth and our importance to society but we are now left fighting for our own survival. The post office is one of the most trusted brands in Ireland. It is hard to think of another business that offers as many essential everyday services while at the same time providing a vital service to the community. Allowing post offices to fail would harm the national economy while devastating many vulnerable households and communities. We are calling on the Government to recognise the national asset it has in the post office network. It matters as much today as it did 100 years ago and will be even more critical in the future.

I thank Mr. O'Hara very much. We will now move to members. The first speaker is Senator Timmy Dooley, who has roughly seven or eight minutes.

I thank the Chairman very much. in fairness, I do not think I will need all of the time. I thank the Irish Postmasters Union for being here. It has appeared before this committee and its predecessor on many occasions. I compliment the witnesses again today on the very straightforward presentation they provided us with. I do not think they are asking for anything other than what they are entitled to and to which the State is entitled.

The post office network provides a hugely valuable service. There is no doubt that over recent years, the demand for the services has reduced and that will continue over time in the way in which people are living their lives. They are transacting much more online. Notwithstanding that, a very considerable cohort of people out there use the services that are currently available. The postmasters have rightly identified on many occasions that it would be wrong to deprive those people of that service. They have challenged us now and in the past, particularly Government, to identify a suite of services that could be delivered through their offices and unfortunately, that has not been forthcoming. If that was in place, it would make their service more viable on the basis that they are contracted on a per-click basis, if you want, or a transactional basis, and they have done really well at that.

First, I want to express my continued and ongoing support. In a previous role, I prepared a paper on this particular matter in which we looked at the idea of having a public service obligation on the post office. That has not materialised, unfortunately, but if we even pull back from what the actual solution is or what the particulars of it might be, the overarching requirement in my view is to provide a stream of funding to An Post to contract with it to provide services, whatever those services might ultimately be.

From my perspective on the committee, I fully support that approach. I would hope that the committee will be able to take a decision at the end of this hearing. I propose in a formal way that the committee endorses the witnesses' recommendations today and that we send a strong message from this committee to the Government that we want to see an amount of money. I estimated it in the past, and there will have been inflation and all of that, which the witnesses will know about and with which we are all coming to terms, somewhere between €10 million and €12 million as the amount of money that would be required to address the deficit, if you want, or moneys that would be needed to ensure that no further offices close.

In my constituency and others, we have seen smaller offices close, which is regrettable. I know there is not a capacity to turn those back but we want to protect and preserve what we have. If we are serious as politicians, then we should be prepared to recommend to Government that an amount of money yet to be determined, which in my view is somewhere between €10 million and €12 million, should be made available to An Post with the very strict instructions that the money goes towards the preservation and protection of the existing network. In parallel with that, let us all work to try to ensure there is a greater suite of services in a changing society that would make some of the offices viable.

I will go back to a point I have often made before, however. We should not be just talking about the viability of a service provider. Nobody looks at a road and asks whether it is viable. To me, the post office is as important in a village as the road that gets a person to the village. In many cases, it is the harp over the door. It is the only element that says the State still values this village. I can tell you as a rural representative traversing the county, as I do every week, that as a State and as an institution, Government and Parliament, we were damn glad of those villages when people could not travel any more than 2 km from their homes during the pandemic. It was the post offices and small shops that kept the whole show on the road during that time when those of us who travel around more and go to centres to do shopping were not able to do so. Thankfully, the post office and the shop were there. The witnesses know better than I that when the post office goes, it is not long before the shop goes as well. It starts a rot, unfortunately, on which we have to turn the tide. On the positive side, if there is any positive to come out of the pandemic, it is the fact that people now see an opportunity to work from home and live in rural areas and villages again.

Thankfully, the post offices have stayed the distance. I hope we can start with the roll-out of broadband, which is now at an advanced stage, so that more and more people will be able to live in villages and their surrounding areas in rural Ireland. Therefore, it is vital that we retain that key piece of connectivity. The presentation has been on the money. I do not need further explanation, and I expect that will be the case with most people. I have little further to say other than I am committed to that. I hope we can take a unanimous approach. I propose that we send a message from this committee to endorse everything the postmasters are doing. We want the Government to provide a stream of money, between €10 million and €12 million - but it can be determined - to support what they do. We will also ask that the work on what further services they can provide is expedited.

In that regard, before the witnesses' comment, following on their appearance, we will have a response from the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, when she comes before us next week. We have also sent an invitation to An Post. We take what Senator Dooley said very seriously and we as a committee support it, but we want to be proactive about it as well. I invite Mr. O'Hara to respond to Senator Dooley's comments.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

I thank Senator Dooley for his comments. I put on the record that he has long been a supporter of the post office network. Today, I came across a picture of him from 15 or 16 years ago supporting the post office network. However, the figure outlined by Senator Dooley is a little bit of out date. Grant Thornton specified a minimum of €12 million. That is the only quibble I have with him.

Allowing for inflation.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Other than that, I welcome his comments and support.

I think he said between €10 million and €12 million.

I probably did.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

We welcome his support. He has long been a supporter of ours and we appreciate it.

Mr. Sean Martin

On behalf of our members, we certainly want to put on record our thanks to the Oireachtas committee in particular, but also to all politicians. In recent months, our members have been out meeting people and the support and courtesy they have got from all public representatives has been heartening. While we are getting the help and support, we now need action. That is what we are here for today. We are here to call on the Oireachtas to ask the Government to act on the Grant Thornton report and to deliver, as our general secretary said, the €12 million that is needed. Anything less, even €11 million, would probably put 100 post offices at risk. For the sake of between €1 million and €3 million, we must ensure that it is €12 million at a minimum.

That is based on an updated report from Grant Thornton that the IPU commissioned.

Mr. Sean Martin

The report came out in April.

It is very fresh. I assume the report has been delivered to the Government.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Absolutely.

I thank the witnesses for being here. We have two sets of witnesses today that embody something that is rare in this country, which is trust. Mr. O'Hara referred to it in his opening statement. The people of Ireland trust our post office network and they have every reason to do so.

I am only a Deputy for two years, but I was on the staff here previously. I am still scratching my head as to why we are in this perennial position of crisis and being about to fall off a cliff and having to ask the Government for what is essentially a modest amount of money in the overall scheme of things to protect a service that is nationwide, massively trusted, and provides a plethora of vital services. In addition, the postmasters are not asking for money to stand still with the services they have or to prop up outdated and antiquated services, they are offering solutions to modern challenges and problems and saying not only will they continue to do the work they are doing, but offering services relating to passports, drivers' licences and daily banking. We have spoken at length about the problems we had with driving licence renewals and the very thin regional spread of the National Driver Licence Service, NDLS, centres, the fact they do not take cash and that they are closed, yet we have a network that is spread all over the country with people willing to do this service and with the expertise to do it, but the Government never seems to pick up the phone to ask them to do that.

I fully endorse and support what Senator Dooley asked. We should do that. I have one question. Why are we continually here? As a representative body, the IPU is asking for a modest amount of money for a service that is trusted. A post office is essentially a one-stop shop. We want that to be the case in each community. Why are we in a perennial crisis? Why do the witnesses think the issue has never been resolved? Why are post offices always left behind and the representatives have to continue to turn up at the committee year in, year out with the same asks?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

One of the reasons is that the answer lies across several different Departments and we are not a priority for any Department. It needs a centralised Government decision, either at the level of the Taoiseach or the Tánaiste. It needs to be a Government decision rather than an individual departmental decision. We do provide services across a range of Departments.

Which Departments deal with An Post?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

The Department of Transport in terms of driving licences. We also deal with TV licences and Garda fines. The Department of Social Protection is the biggest one. That is four Departments. We understand that the Government's agenda or even the people's agenda is digital, and we think that the officials who plan are just planning in digital mode: they are not looking at the transformation or the number of people who continue to use and need to use offline solutions. That is part of it. The issue is the lack of a champion, rather than any ill will towards the post office network. As Mr. Martin said, every Deputy and official we meet support the post office network, but somebody needs to grasp the nettle, make the decision and do something.

Postmasters are exasperated. We do not want to be seen coming with our hand out. We offer the services that we can provide. We say we can provide more services. People say they want to use us. They say An Post is the most trusted brand in Ireland. We say that the postmasters, who are the people who provide the service, are the people who provide that trust. It is not an organisational thing. It is about the experience when people come into post offices. I cannot fathom why it has not been done up to now. It seems to me at one level that it is just a case of making a decision. If people are concerned that investing in the post office network would become a black hole, we have said on numerous occasions that we are agreeable to have any plan reviewed over the normal business planning cycle of three to five years. We recognise that the world is changing. We are around for 100 years. We are not providing the services now that we were providing 100 years ago, but we are still providing services and we are still used each week by 1.3 million people. I do not know why somebody does not just do it. Perhaps it needs to be a Government decision. We hope that is what is going to happen.

Mr. O'Hara is looking to the Taoiseach or the Tánaiste.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

I do not think there is one member of the Cabinet who would disagree with the statement that the post office network is valuable and has provided the services Senator Dooley outlined. We were available within the period of the 2 km and 5 km limits. We went out of our way to help people during the lockdown. We provided services above and beyond the call of duty. As to the question Deputy Smith asked about the reason, I do not know

I do not know either. I represent a constituency in Dublin that is part urban and part rural. I acknowledge that members of the IPU visited me in my clinics, who were fantastically articulate and passionate about the job they do and the service they provide. The threat that they will not be able to do it for much longer is very real. We are talking about postmasters and postmistresses who are in towns that have already lost Garda stations and local banks and it is really only post offices that are left providing services in terms of facilities with a trusted harp above the door. I believe we will endorse what Senator Dooley said, as a committee, but rather than just sending it up the chain, so to speak, how do we go beyond that and try to grasp the situation in a way that is different?

I am assuming the IPU is in discussions with the various Departments and Ministers.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

We are not really in discussion with any of the Departments. The Department will not discuss issues directly with us. We lobby them and we meet the officials, but we deal directly with An Post. I assume An Post is in negotiations or discussions with the Department.

As I said, we have got our members to lobby every Deputy in Ireland over the past six months.

Does the IPU have any interaction with the interdepartmental group that is up and running?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

No. We made our submission. When we met the Minister of State, Deputy Hildegarde Naughton, in March of last year, we were promised that the interdepartmental group would report by the end of July. We are still awaiting that report. We have met the Minister of State on a number of occasions. We have met the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan. It is work in progress.

How recent were those meetings?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

The last one with the Minister of State was immediately before Christmas. We were at a parliamentary party meeting yesterday which we thought the Minister of State would also be at but she was out of the country. I do not think the Minister of State has any objection to meeting us in principle. Our 100th conference is on in two weeks' time and the Minister of State is coming to that to speak. She is welcome to come to that to speak.

What can we do? Mr. O'Hara and his colleagues are the experts. They represent the 833 members throughout the country. With what structure can we assist the IPU in this regard?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

What we want is a decision. There are three options when it comes to a decision. We either get a "Yes", a "No" or a "Maybe." We do not want "Maybe." Either tell us we are wanted and do something about it or tell us we are not wanted and we can get on with the rest of our lives. Many postmasters-----

When does the IPU need the decision made by?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Under the current arrangement we have with An Post, we must give six months' notice if we want to terminate our contracts. We had a negotiation with An Post last year on the pandemic relief fund, which runs out at the end of this year. Postmasters are making their decisions now if they are going to make a decision.

That means that by the end of June, they have to get a decision as to whether they will be gone by 1 January 2023.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Then it will not be a Government decision whether post offices will close. Individual postmasters will make that decision. That is the concern.

When we were quizzed on this a few years ago when we were negotiating an agreement, we were asked to explain - something like the Chairman is asking me now - what would happen. My answer was interpreted as that there would be unrestrained closures. There will be unrestrained resignations if a decision is not made.

Ultimately, we are talking about a window of approximately five or six weeks at most.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

At most. People are under pressure, up and down the country. It is not confined to rural areas.

That is the reason the committee has brought the matter to a head. It is the reason that the representatives from the IPU are here today and that the Minister of State will with us next week.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

It is the urgency.

We are following up on the urgency. We are conscious of it.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

And a decision, not a "Maybe."

Mr. Sean Martin

I thank Deputy Duncan Smith. Probably the most relevant question that has been asked over the past number of years is why are we still in the same position we have been in considering how important the post office network is to the economy. We hand out €6.7 billion into local economies. Jim Power put a multiplier of two on it. That is hard cash that sustains businesses locally; it creates jobs locally. In the context of the climate and a green agenda, we keep services local. There are fewer carbon emissions and there is a smaller carbon footprint.

We provide access to postal services and financial services for the most vulnerable in society, for the marginalised, for the less well off and for the people who are living hand to mouth. That is a considerable service we give to the Government, and we probably give that free.

Many of our postmasters feel frustrated and annoyed that the Government still has not made a decision as to whether we are valuable enough to invest a small amount of money in. We are not looking for money for nothing. There are extra services we can provide. We named them, not this year, not last year but over the past number of years. We have said we can do form identification for social welfare, for passport express, for the electoral register. We also said we can do form generation. This, we believe, can save the taxpayer millions of euro because we can do it on an only-when-required basis.

Maybe Mr. Martin can elaborate on that. I am conscious there are quite a lot of members looking to come in. It is obviously a relevant topic for people.

Mr. Sean Martin

Sure.

Mr. Ciarán McEntee

Just to say that we are contractors. Ours are individual post offices that can be paid by transaction. If we were all in a group, it would be different but every post office is paid by every transaction it has.

Fee price.

Mr. Ciarán McEntee

People will not leave villages because the post office is in the village. As Senator Dooley said, when the post office closes in a village, the shop and everything else goes. That is why we are always fighting.

It is not just about the postmasters.

Mr. Ciarán McEntee

Yes. It is to keep villages in rural Ireland and urban Ireland alive.

I thank Mr. McEntee. I thank Deputy Duncan Smith. I now call Deputy Carey.

I thank the witnesses. I engaged with them last evening at the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party. I want to state publicly my support for the IPU in its campaign to achieve the ultimate aims that are set out in the Grant Thornton report. The Government needs to step up to the plate and provide the €12 million that is required. I certainly believe that we need to get a decision on this urgently and that we need a positive decision from the Minister of State.

Many of the questions I intended to pose have already been asked. They would have been in terms of the type of engagement the union has had with Government. Mr. O'Hara confirmed that the last meeting with the Minister of State was before Christmas. Has Mr. O'Hara sought a meeting since then with the Minister of State to get an update? The committee will be meeting with the Minister of State next week. I am engaging with her on a one-to-one basis and have written to the her. I met members of the IPU in my office in Ennis. They put across a robust case.

The post office is at the heart of every community. It is an integral part of community life. It would be a retrograde step if we were to dismantle that critical service in our communities. Twelve million euro is really a small sum to pay to sustain all those post offices.

I strongly endorse the union's stance. I ask the Chairman that the committee do so as well, and make it clear to the Government that we want a positive result on this and we need it urgently.

We can do so in a structured way. We can endorse the latest report.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

The Minister of State has indicated that she will meet us, and that she will attend and will address our conference.

When is the conference being held?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

On 4 and 5 June.

It is at a critical time.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Yes, but the Minister of State's office has indicated that she will meet us prior to that.

I will allow Mr. Martin and Mr. McEntee to elaborate on what the postmasters can bring to the table in terms of extra services. Maybe they can respond to Deputy Carey in that context.

Mr. Sean Martin

I thank Deputy Carey for his kind words. We met the Deputy last night at the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party meeting. The Deputy has been a huge supporter of ours over the past number of years, as has the Chairman. The Chairman's help has been extremely important to us.

I challenge any politician or public representative to tell me today that the €12 million that we are looking for is not value for money considering what we bring to communities. We bring, as I said, the €6.7 billion in relation to the economy, we bring - Grant Thornton put this figure on it, not us - in excess of €344 million in the context of social dividend and social cohesion, and we bring the green agenda in respect of keeping carbon emissions down by keeping services local.

There is an amount of extra that we said we could do. We could do the ID verification and form generation for passports, for the electoral register and for the Department of Social Protection.

In that context, how did the renewal of driving licences not come in?

Mr. Sean Martin

Our understanding was the tender was only looking for 30 outlets and An Post tendered for probably 300 or 400 outlets.

Did An Post tender at the time for it?

Mr. Sean Martin

The company tendered, but on the basis of 300 or 400 outlets rather than what the tender looked for, which was probably 30. I think that is the reason we lost.

We are not looking for sole exclusivity of any product or service. What we are saying is that we should be an omnichannel. We should be an offline solution for the Government to enable it to deliver any sort of a service. I was at the public forum on banking the other day. Someone made a major contribution in stating that if one can make it easy for the elderly, one makes it easy for everyone. That is a hugely important point. By making it easy through the post office which we do, the last thing one wants to do now is to take that service away from the community and to be left with sleeper towns.

That is what we will face if the Government does not make this decision over the next couple of months.

Does Mr. McEntee wish to comment?

Mr. Ciarán McEntee

My view is the same as Mr. Martin’s. We are all based in rural and urban villages. There are many things that we have produced on this. Every Government-----

I know this myself.

Mr. Ciarán McEntee

-----Minister and Deputy has received our submissions on all of the different services we do. There are many other new services, such as the electoral register and others. They are local.

A simple thing happened the other day. A lady in her 50s and her 16-year-old son who needed a passport came into the post office. They had done the application online but it was sent back to them. They did not know what to do, so they came over to us in the post office. We filled out the forms and sent them away. As Mr. Martin says, the post office is a vital part of the community. If we do not have something in the community, all the rest of the-----

They applied online and the consent forms and follow-up forms were required online. Was the local post office was able to assist them?

Mr. Ciarán McEntee

Yes, because some people are not good at doing these things.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

An example of that is in the North, where is an assist fee is charged. When people who cannot fill out a passport application form go to the post office in the North and in the UK for assistance in filling out the form, they are charged a fee. In Ireland it is digital only, so the assistance is provided via a tutorial on the website. That is a service we could provide. It could be a supplementary service. The point Mr. McEntee is making is that we provide assistance to people to fill out forms that they cannot do themselves. We do that on paper.

We appreciate the situation with passports at the moment. It takes a huge amount of our time. We are glad to do it as public representatives. Anything that would assist in streamlining that would be helpful. Does Deputy Carey wish to come back in?

We will move now to Deputy Darren O’Rourke.

I thank the witnesses. So far, we all seem to be very much on the same page on this issue. I expect that this will remain the same for the rest of the meeting. From my own perspective, I would like this committee to speak with a united voice on this. I would like to see the Minister to go to the Irish Postmasters Union conference and announce that a decision has been made on this.

We appreciate that, Deputy O’Rourke. We are always looking to work in a collective manner at this committee.

Yes. That is what I think needs to happen. Until that point, I would have concerns about this issue. I had concerns coming here because we are all on the same page on this issue but we have not seen movement on it. To me, that sets off alarm bells. I am concerned that there is an unspoken plan in place whereby 900 post offices are considered not viable and we are going in the direction where a figure in the region of 500 will face closure. I firmly believe that is the wrong track.

Senator Dooley and others have spoken about the impact of an anchor institution with a State presence. The figure of €344 million was raised. I do not know what kind of calculation goes into that. This committee went to Shannon Airport on Monday. I drove back up through Clonalvy, County Meath, a small place of which most people will not have heard. It was one of the places that lost its post office in 2018. On Monday night, we were talking about how to save the school there. That is the type of thing that happens in rural areas. We lost other post offices and we do not want to lose any more.

One of the points I want to raise is that there is a perception that it is the small, rural post offices that are under threat. That is not my sense of the situation. I represent a number of what would be considered larger urban areas. Can I get the Irish Postmasters Union’s perspective on that?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

I thank Deputy O'Rourke for the question. Again, I thank him for his support. We have met him before. He has supported us, and he speaks in favour of us. The issue we have in relation to post offices is that there is a commonly held view that the small, rural post offices that are under threat. The answer that has been given to me before has been interpreted as a case of unrestrained closures. We do not where they will take place and we do not know how many of them there will be. We expect that the urban post offices, particularly given the recent increases in costs, will likely be most under threat. That is the fear. If the big post offices close, then the model will become unsustainable. We are not differentiating between large, medium or small post offices. All we are saying is that every post office is on the economic margin its own right.

Mr. McEntee made this point a few minutes ago. Every post office is different. They are the same, but different. They are all on the economic margin for different reasons. There could be a selection across any town or any village in Ireland. It also includes the cities. Large post offices in Dublin could be at risk.

Would Mr. O'Hara say that An Post, the Department or the relevant authorities have made the same analysis or that they share that same perspective?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

They must have, because I get applications every day from postmasters who are interested in retiring. They ask what would happen if they retire. I pass them on to An Post. Because of GDPR, An Post then deals with them directly. I get applications or expressions of interest from people across the spectrum who say they are no longer able to provide the service. This is increasingly the case in urban areas.

I would like to ask about the contract fee and the Grant Thornton report, which points towards a figure of €12 million. Separate to that, there is the argument, which I think is a very clear one, that there are more services that post offices should be providing. There is also the interdepartmental issue. How do the two issues relate? Is it the case that post offices need to provide additional services for the €12 million? Could the figure of €12 million be based on existing transactions or on the services that are already provided? Do they need additional services to be diverted to post offices?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

We will go back to the Grant Thornton report of 2020, which identified the cost of providing a network of approximately 900 post offices at €70 million. It identified the commercial revenue as €52 million. The gap was €17 million. We feel that there are services there. We do not want money for nothing. We feel that we currently provide services and we do them unpaid. We feel that there are more services, as Mr. Martin has pointed out, that are available. We therefore feel that the Government should make an investment and that it should allow us to provide the services that people want, and that people say they want, rather than just supporting the post office and giving it a PSO for nothing in return. We feel we have something to provide in return. We want to provide the services. The people for whom we provide services want our services.

On the issue of the contract fee, rather than the Government giving money for nothing, they should give money and we will provide services in return. We provide many services at the moment for which we are not paid. There is the service of giving advice - Mr. McEntee has just given an example of people coming into the post office to look for help with filling forms. Many people find it difficult to fill forms. Mr. Martin made a point in relation to form generation. We could help people to complete forms, either physically on a piece of paper or online if it makes life more simple. These are services that people want. I would like help filling out some forms that I get from the Government. They are very complicated.

Mr. Sean Martin

That is a valuable service that we give. The extra services that we provide to our community are probably unrecognised and unrecompensed. We just do not get paid for them. Mr. McEntee named one of them. The Department of Social Protection gives people forms and we do a lot to help people to fill out those forms. We do a lot in relation to bereavement. When somebody loses a family member, we are the people who pick up much of the slack in that area. We do much work in giving out tourist information and we do not get paid for that. We do a lot of caring for our community. If Mícheál, Leo, Éamon or Hilda do not turn up on a particular day at a particular time, we make sure someone contacts them or someone calls them. We do an awful lot of work that people do not see us doing. However, we are happy to do it. What we are saying to the Government is that we are looking for an overall solution here. We can deliver more services, but we need that €12 million in order to be able to stay viable and sustainable.

I thank Mr. Martin. We will now move on to Deputy Matthews.

I welcome the witnesses today. In particular, I compliment Mr. Martin, because he has rallied the postmasters to contact each and every Deputy. They came to all of our offices, sat down and laid out their cases. They actually looked to take a photograph afterwards. Normally it is the job of the politician to make sure that the photograph is taken, but the postmasters did that. We all support this. There is no doubt about that and that can be heard here. In the conversations that I had with those postmasters, they outlined the point that Mr. O’Hara also raised about the social value that they bring. I note that the report puts that social value at €344 million. That is sometimes hard to quantify. It is sometimes hard to put a finger on what the social value is.

I raise a question in the context of the figure of €12 million. The figure had been €17 million, and it went to €12 million.

Is that figure of €12 million based on services that post offices have now started providing or is it based on all the other services they could provide, which would mean the Government support would be reduced by that figure of €5 million?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

The reduction has come about because postmasters have not been sitting on their hands. For instance, there are new Bank of Ireland services. An Post won a Bank of Ireland contract to provide agency banking for Bank of Ireland, so that is some of it. In addition, new customs services arrived because of Brexit. There are new services we provide that nobody would have forecast three or four years ago. Much shopping is now done online. If a person imports a parcel from England, for example, there is duty involved, so the customer goes to a post office and pays the duty that is due. Customers are expected to complete a customs declaration when posting a parcel. The postmaster helps with that and there is a fee included in that. In the past 18 months or two years, we have generated additional revenue that has helped to reduce the deficit that Grant Thornton originally quantified.

To expand on that, I refer to the figure of €344 million in social value. The figure we are looking at now is €12 million, and I think that is entirely good value to protect the post office network, all it is doing and all it potentially can do. To look at it from the viewpoint of the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, however, one needs to consider whether there is more that could be done, more productivity achieved and more services provided to bring this figure down. I presume the figure we are considering is a multi-annual one. Let us say the figure is to be €12 million. The IPU needs to know that will be there for the next three to five years.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

We are saying that the normal business plan is a cycle of three to five years. I do not think anybody can forecast beyond that.

Are there more services that the IPU has stated post offices could provide? There needs to be far more discussion on these services and what else that entails for the physical post offices if they are going to provide the services.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

One of the services we can do in an increasingly digital world is to provide identity verification. It seems to me that in the context of a closed digital system, once you are in, you are in. The gateway to access to those systems can be guarded by postmasters. If a person wishes to access a system, he or she would have to present proof of identity to a postmaster. It may be that postmasters need to be made peace commissioners to do this. The postmaster would be the verifier of identity for people entering closed digital networks or, for instance, entering their name on the electoral register. All present know the electoral register is not currently accurate. I have been living in Dublin for almost 30 years and I have been visited only once to see how many people live in my house. If I was required to attend the post office with photographic ID, such as a passport, to get onto the electoral register, we would have a better electoral register. We have identified several services we can provide for the contract fee. That is one of those services. Mr. Martin referred to form generation. The green agenda is something we can do. We can provide services locally. We already provide a certain amount of services of which people are not aware locally. We can justify the €12 million in the context of value for money for the Government. As I stated, we do not want money for nothing. We can provide services and have identified them. There is an interdepartmental group examining the number of offline services that can be provided. The findings of that report have not yet been produced. We can do all of those things.

The Chairman stated that the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, will be coming before the committee shortly.

She will be coming before us on 1 June.

Do we have a detailed breakdown on the capital cost that will be required or information on the service postmasters can provide and the amount of income that will bring in in the next three to five years? It is very much a business case that we are trying to put forward. I do greatly appreciate the social value of this.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

In the original Grant Thornton report, there was chapter and verse in respect of numbers.

Those are still valid at the moment.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

They are. They were only produced 18 months ago. We got an update. I am not sure another Grant Thornton report is needed at this stage. There is enough information available. An Post is the main source of that information. There is enough information to provide whatever is required by the Department to justify or make a business case for it. We firmly believe that.

Mr. Sean Martin

Due to the time constraints, it is probably difficult to put a transaction fee on each of the services we offer. Mr. O'Hara stated that we can do something relating to the green agenda, and I hope the committee would endorse that. It relates to being a conduit for retrofitting nationally. We are a trusted organisation. If a person asks us to send a trusted person to look at his or her house to see what he or she can do in respect of retrofitting it and upgrading the insulation, we can do that. We believe we are well placed to do it. We could then set in motion the person to actually deliver that service. It is difficult to put a price on that, however, because of the amount of time and effort that may be involved. That is why we are kind of saying it needs to be a whole-of-government approach. It cannot be a case of an individual Department giving us €1 million from its budget because it thinks we can offer a particular service. The Government as a whole has to say that this is value for money and an important national asset that we have to ensure survives not for the next three, four or five years, but for the next 100 years. We have been there for the past 100 years and I think we have something to offer for the next 100 years.

Sure. I think Deputy Smith made the point earlier that it is a trusted entity that knows the community so well. That is part of its value as well.

I am almost out of time but I did not quite understand the point in respect of the pandemic relief fund point with reference to June and six months.

I ask our guests to go through that issue.

It is an important point.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

In 2018, we made an agreement with An Post for a three-year transformation agreement. There was evidence that transformation was working before the pandemic. The pandemic impacted our efforts to transform ourselves. We made an agreement with An Post that it would support us for another 18 months because of the pandemic. Our transformation agreement, if one likes, was extended by 18 months to allow us to transform ourselves from being service providers to being agile retailers, if members will pardon the clichés. That runs out at the end of the year, so we will be on our own two feet.

Would it be fair to say, in layman's terms, that the IPU has come to an arrangement with An Post whereby An Post is providing a pandemic support that will continue up to 31 December of this year?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Yes.

As they are self-employed, postmasters have to give six months notice to An Post if they decide to terminate their contract.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Yes.

If that pandemic support payment is to conclude on 31 December, the postmaster has to give that notice by 30 June at the latest.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Yes.

That brings significant urgency in terms of planning for postmasters. To put it in context, looking at this as an accountant, one always goes back to basics. The IPU is seeking €12 million. It is probably reasonably accurate to say there are 888 post offices. I make it out to be €13,500, on average, per post office per year, €1,126 per month, or €260 per week. Is that a reasonable overall view?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

That is a calculation we have not yet reached because-----

I am taking an average. The moneys that are involved per individual post office-----

Mr. Ned O'Hara

We have not even------

Is it fair to say the sums of money will not be huge?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

They will not be huge. We have deliberately avoided any discussion in respect of the dispersal of any funds.

I can discuss it. The committee can discuss it

Mr. Ned O'Hara

The Chairman can discuss it but we------

Is that fair to say that the average amounts involved per individual post office are small?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Yes.

That may be lost in the overall context, yet its importance to the local village and for the postmaster is enormous. Members of this committee are dealing with matters on the ground and we know that.

That is fine. I thank the Chairman for clarifying that.

Mr. O'Hara does not mind that; does he?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

No, that is fine.

I welcome Mr. Martin, Mr. O'Hara and Mr. McEntee to the committee. I was following the proceedings from my office and I have read the written statement they provided. I will get to the finances in a moment because that is why they are here. It is what will save the network.

First, I wish to touch on the human aspects of this matter. I have homed in on two things Mr. O'Hara's opening statement. He stated that postmasters are "independent small and medium enterprises contracted by An Post to run post offices". They are not State employees and they are not paid a fixed salary. He later stated: "We receive calls daily from burnt-out postmasters in all areas of the country who are seriously considering their immediate future." In recent months, Dáil Éireann has heard of soldiers who have had to sleep in cars and of nurses who could not pay their mortgage. Are some postmasters - pillars of the community who provide a vital service in rural Ireland - impoverished by the current model of payment they receive?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

I am not sure I can answer that question. As I said, every post office is different. It is my experience in dealing with them on a daily basis that they are all on the economic margin. Are any of them sleeping in cars? I do not think so. They run businesses and why would they stay in business if it is not sustainable? I do not understand the question. They are under pressure economically but they are not sleeping in cars, if that is the question.

No, I referenced that as an example. We have heard from other groups and people come before the Houses of the Oireachtas and they explain how they are pressurised. I used the example of our armed forces and members of the Defence Forces sleeping in cars, which they referenced. In this very room just a few months ago we had representatives of the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation, INMO, telling us their members - front-line nurses - were under savage financial pressure and some were unable to afford their mortgages and had gone into arrears. I was asking about postmasters, given they are not on a salaried system but deal with transactional payments. In certain rural post offices, transactions may be slim enough and footfall might be pretty low, so are some of them struggling to a point where they are pretty much impoverished?

In my rural county, one or two postmasters have told me they stay open because of family tradition. It is quite similar to the case of the rural pub and it is not that they are making any great wage packet or income out of it. There is, instead, a cultural obligation to the community and surroundings to stay open. Does Mr. O'Hara feel some of those which he represents are in that category of being on the bread line?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

I suppose the answer to that is "Yes".

Mr. Sean Martin

I can answer that and they are. The difficulty they have has been expressed by the Deputy. Over the next couple of weeks they need to make the decision of whether they will let down their community or incur debt. It is the big decision they must make. It is now becoming unviable for many post offices. We probably have 200 post offices throughout the country and when we strip costs from them, the people in them are working for less than the minimum wage. The Deputy is right.

It is the very point I am trying to get to. We are supportive of the delegation's position, which Mr. O'Hara explained really well in his opening statement. We are supportive of this financial model and it must be actioned. The postmasters need certainty on this in the next two to three weeks. We are fast approaching June and the uncertainty that brings for all of the witnesses' colleagues throughout the country. It concerns me.

The delegation is representing a national organisation but I know of individual cases where I am concerned for people's welfare because the post office struggles. It must offer more services and income streams and in its current form, it does not.

There is the idea of somebody retiring and resigning a contracted position with An Post. Some of the contractors are under huge pressure because the current rationalisation model in a county like Clare means there should be a post office at every 15 km of map radius. It is worked out from the GPO and circles are drawn on maps around each post office. Some of the circles overlap and some do not. There is much pressure if a postmaster or postmistress decides he or she has had enough and wants to pack it in and go for an easier life. There is much pressure on the retirement, whether it is on age or health grounds or because of financial pressure or family reasons. When they retire, the rationalisation process kicks in and the post office closes. Very often, that contract is not awarded to somebody else and it becomes a survival game.

When Broadford post office in Clare closed, there was an unintentional and inadvertent consequence of making Kilkishen post office over the road stronger because of the ludicrous rationalisation rule. Has the postmasters' union a position on the 15 km rule? It should not be operating and it is shutting post offices that should be viable and remain open.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

We have no view on that. It is a policy decision for either the Government, the Department or An Post. The protocol was brought in by An Post in 2018 and before that there was no protocol. Before that, post offices closed as postmasters retired whether or not the service was required. At least now there is some structure in that regard. The current protocol is that there should be a post office for every population centre of 500 people or one for every 3 km radius in an urban area or 15 km in a rural area. The union has no view on that protocol. We recognise that there cannot be a post office for everyone in the audience. Is 500 a good number? I have no view on that. There is a census this year and it may lead to a review of the protocol. I presume that number will go up.

We know there are 750 post offices and if their postmaster retires, they will stay open. There are approximately 130 or 150 other post offices and if their postmaster retires, it would not be advertised. We are not involved with that protocol. We have no view on the size, for example. We see it as either Government or An Post policy. We welcome the structure it gives because before it the process was totally unstructured.

The delegation will come before the committee again and I would love to hear an analysis of that. The union may not have a position currently and feel it is beyond its realm but in County Clare that 15 km rule can be damning. Deputy Matthews is beside me and if he and I were postmasters and I decided to retire, it would make his position stronger. In my local village the service for that 15 km radius would be gone. It does not work and it is slowly shutting things. Postmasters are then working until their late 70s or early 80s because they feel the minute they turn the key in the door and walk out, the service will be gone, not just in their village but in the 15 km radius around it. It is doing major damage in rural areas. I would love an analysis of that in due course.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

If the population figure stays at 500, there would have to be, by definition, more post offices if that protocol is followed. If the post offices of Deputies Crowe and Matthews, to use the Deputy's example, were within the protocol, the service would not be closed. Both would be advertised.

I will fire out the last few questions quickly if Mr. O'Hara does not mind. On the Grant Thornton report, the postmasters' union engaged on that a few times over the years. The most up-to-date report recommending Government intervention dates to September 2020. Given Covid-19 and everything that has happened in between, is that report current or is it slightly outdated?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

We have an updated report from this year. The answer is "Yes" and "No", at the risk of giving an Irish answer.

There was a report in April.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

It is as up to date as it was 15 months ago. Inflation has kicked in since. We got an updated report in April and it has identified the gap from our perspective as being €12 million. The costs may have gone up from €70 million but we have got no pay increase. The cost of providing the network remains at €70 million. The revenue was €53 million. We get additional revenue from Bank of Ireland and the customs service, arising from Brexit, as well as one or two other things. The gap has been closed by €5 million but the network now needs a minimum of €12 million.

Nobody is envisaging that this will happen but will Mr. O'Hara spell out what would come about if there was no Government intervention? If nothing happened or everything remained static, what would happen in June and the months that follow?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

The Deputy may have missed the point earlier but an unrestricted number of postmasters would tender their resignation. I do not know how many postmasters would do that and I do not know where those postmasters would be. In his opening remarks, the Deputy referred to the economics of each individual post office and each post office is an individual business. It is down to those postmasters on the economic margin. Those who do not see an economic future for themselves will tender their resignation. It is an unrestricted number. Could it be 100 or 200 postmasters? It would be in that order. These are the people-----

Mr. O'Hara believes up to 200 postmasters of the 833 would resign.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Potentially.

I ask about agency banking. Some of the postmasters with whom I have communicated around home tell me that from a consumer perspective, that is very attractive. A customer can use banking services, which would be good, as there have been bank closures in rural Ireland too. I am hearing this could be worth an average of between €1,100 to €1,200 per year. Mr. McEntee is shaking his head so what does he think?

Mr. Ciarán McEntee

It depends.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

It depends on the post office. It depends on whether the Bank of Ireland or AIB branch nearby has closed.

It is transactional again.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Yes.

Mr. Ciarán McEntee

It depends on local business. The Deputy spoke about post offices struggling. Some post offices have three staff and the postmaster may be getting less than a staff member. It is a big problem and that will happen. I have a small post office and survive because I run it by myself with my wife in a rural area. Some offices have three staff and there is no backup. A neighbour of mine closed the post office and gave it up, leaving somebody else to take it up. That happened because she had no wages for herself after she paid staff.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Getting back to banking services, there is a post office in Tramore and he will not benefit from providing Bank of Ireland services at all because there is a bank branch in town.

However, a town up the country with no Bank of Ireland is benefiting. It makes sense at a gross level, but it may not at an individual level. There are winners and losers in a relationship like this one.

Mr. Sean Martin

The Chairman put it elegantly when he talked about bringing it back to simple accountancy. By December of this year, there will be a reduction of between 20% and 40% in post offices' income if the pandemic funding stops and there is no other Government support. Effectively, the post office system as we know it will collapse.

I wholeheartedly support the points that the witnesses are making. They are seeking State intervention, which needs to happen urgently. The witnesses will have our support and I hope that our committee will lobby the Government for it.

Beyond financial supports, there is a need for greater footfall through post offices' doors.

We need to move on, Deputy. I have a good number of members wishing to contribute.

I will wrap up in the next ten seconds. If I go to a post office, it is for a parcel, stamps or whatever. There needs to be a greater range of services available there. People have turned away from getting their passports through the post office because that process takes too long. Last July, the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, committed to unveiling a suite of offline services that people could avail of at their post offices. To save the sector, we need to see those now in tandem with the financial package.

The Minister of State will be appearing before us the week after next. I got my dates wrong.

I thank the witnesses for attending. I also thank them for their leaflets. I receive their IPU updates every two months or whenever the case may be, and those are informative and helpful.

In his statement, Mr. O'Hara outlined that An Post, of which post offices are the customer-facing part, was one of the most trusted brands in the country. It is probably more trusted than any bank or other financial institution. There is a great deal that is positive about it. Equally, though, I just asked a couple of people in their 20s upstairs about when they were last in their post offices. One could not remember and another said it was last Christmas to buy stamps for Christmas cards. What is the age profile of the people who come in the door every day and every week and where is that going? I get the impression that it is mostly older people. My mother uses the post office regularly and thinks it is a fantastic service to have.

I could probably name seven or eight post offices within two miles of me in my area of Dublin, but two have closed. One had a bakery in the shop as well and probably achieved higher margins by making that part of the shop bigger and getting rid of the post office. The post office is much more essential in less densely populated areas because the next one is so much farther away.

I was listening to the earlier contributions from my office. The witnesses are asking for €12 million on the one hand and, on the other, saying that they do not want money for nothing and that they are looking for other services. What other services can we deliver? I do not understand why An Post's tender for the driver licence service included 300 facilities if the tender process was only seeking 30. I do not know why it did not compete on what the tender process was seeking. Nor do I know why we need to set up a driver licence system when the post office could have provided the service across the country.

What is the future of the business in terms of transactions? I worry about broadband, in that, as broadband becomes available across more of the country, more services will go online and people may use post offices less. Where is the area of expansion and what can we do, as a Government and as a committee lobbying the Government, to give post offices more services that they do not currently have? The customer profile is changing, as is the business profile. Since the pandemic, I presume that the number of cash transactions in post offices is down. What else can we give the post offices to improve the viability of their business and allow them to generate that €12 million through services as opposed to just giving each office a lump of cash?

I will add to that. Could a formula be found whereby, to ensure post offices continued, they had an annual contract payment and new services coming on stream would reduce the level of the €12 million?

To add to that, we are all supportive of the network and individual postmasters and postmistresses. We understand the strain they are under. None of us is familiar with the situation unless we know a postmaster or postmistress. The funding model is per transaction. Presumably, some post offices in urban areas are doing well because they have many transactions. I do not know the range. When the Vintners' Federation of Ireland appeared before the finance committee three or four years ago, it stated that half of its members had a turnover of less than €200,000 per year. Do the witnesses have that breakdown as regards their members? Do 20% of them have turnovers of less than €10,000 or €30,000 per year and a couple are making more than €500,000 per year? Do we have those figures?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

None is making more than €500,000 and there are many in the lower segment of offices earning up to €50,000. For the vast majority, the amount is less than €50,000 or €60,000.

Regarding services, it depends on how one views the network. Someone could say that there will be no post offices in ten or 15 years’ time, but we are looking at the next three to five years. There will be a post office and services provided for the next three to five years. The agreement we reached with An Post in 2018 saw us transforming from being service providers into agile retailers, if the committee will pardon the clichés. We depend on An Post to provide the services to us, and I had to ask about some of them myself, for example, the Gift Voucher Shop, One4All service and chip and PIN gaming. I do not understand what they are, but they are for young people. We also handle mobile top-ups. An Post is working hard to develop new products and services aimed at all sections. It looks at the age profile of customers and realises that it has to get younger customers-----

Is it fair to say that most of a post office’s customers are in the older band?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Yes, although it depends on the service. At a macro level, we have identified services that we can provide. For example, in this digital world, we can perform identity verification to ensure that the correct people are in the various systems and we can complete forms online.

We do not try to think beyond three to five years. If one were to ask any business person developing a three-to-five-year business plan whether he or she knew what was going to happen, that person might know what would happen this year, would guess at the next year but would make it up for the third. Unless a business is an Amazon or-----

Every post office is different, but what is the greater revenue generator across the network?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Social welfare payments and the spin-off BillPay transactions.

People come in, collect their social welfare payments and then pay their phone bills, ESB bills and so on.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Yes. We get a spin-off from those bill payments.

Post offices are getting a fee for providing social welfare payments. Do post offices handle the identity verification part of those payments as well?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

No. We perform identity verification for money laundering purposes. This is unpaid, I might add. To comply with money laundering procedures, someone must present himself or herself at a post office with his or her photographic ID and two household payments-----

To collect social welfare payments.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

No. It is done for money laundering and State savings banking purposes, not social welfare payments. We could do it for those, though.

During the pandemic, many people’s social welfare payments were paid directly into their banks. What percentage of people-----

Mr. Ned O'Hara

It is declining constantly. I believe it is 10%.

Mr. Sean Martin

It is approximately 15% or 20%. When discussing social welfare, it is important to put on the record what the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, has done for us in recent months, that being, to ensure that jobseeker’s payments are handled through post offices again.

That was the identity verification issue to which I was referring.

Mr. Sean Martin

It is very important, not for us, but for the Government because it helps to eliminate fraud. We understand what happened during the pandemic as regards fraud.

Even for those whose payments are being moved electronically into their bank accounts, post office accounts or whatever directly, there is a value in them presenting themselves to post offices-----

Mr. Sean Martin

Absolutely.

-----and the post offices would get a fee. Having to turn up physically would address the allegation that people who had left the country, were now in employment or were doing nixers were still drawing down payments. If post offices were in every community, people would not have to travel long distances to social welfare offices. Is that service provided already?

Mr. Sean Martin

No. It is something for which we have been looking.

As we have seen during the pandemic, the future of pure cash transactions is receding, but there are many other services that the post office could provide. The driver licence service was a missed opportunity and I do not see the post offices being able to get it back, given that the other network has been set up. What other services can post offices provide? I am interested in what they could do in terms of the electoral register.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

We could handle that work, but we understand that the matter will be examined by a commission set up by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

The commission has not been set up yet so there is scope within the commission to involve that. Social welfare represents the post office’s biggest chunk of money. What is the next biggest payer of the bills of post offices?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

State savings-----

Mr. Sean Martin

The National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

-----and mails. It is approximately 30% mails, 30% social welfare, 20% commercial, including BillPay.

Where is the State savings in that?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

State savings is 20%, so 50% is Government revenue. That is 50%, between social welfare and state savings. NTMA and-----

Is there another 30% in BillPay?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

No, in mails. There is then another 20% for BillPay and all of the rest of it.

At this stage, do mails comprise mostly of parcels?

Mr. Sean Martin

Yes, and letters.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Yes, and parcels are not a growth area for us because parcels are generally generated from Amazon or from big companies who sell-----

It only arises when someone is sending a package to a son or daughter in Australia or America.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Or when it involves returns from online shopping.

Mr. Sean Martin

One of the biggest opportunities we have is in agency or community banking, as we call it. We call it banking for everyone, which is being able to do AIB and Bank of Ireland business. We are still doing Ulster Bank business even though they are pulling out of the country. This is of great importance for us from the point of view of access to a branch, to a person or to cash. I attended a public forum on banking during the week and cash, we are told, is not going out of the system. Approximately 20% to 25% of people are still using cash exclusively and are not using a card and there is also a mixture of both usages. Cash is of great importance for communities because it is the cash that we hand out locally that sustains the local communities. It is of great importance, therefore, that we continue our use of cash. Agency banking can certainly be an opportunity for us where banks are pulling out of rural Ireland and out of the country. We can fill that gap and have been filling that gap up until now.

This revenue stream has reduced mostly from €17 million to €12 million.

Mr. Sean Martin

Yes, but let us not get caught up on the €12 million. That is needed to ensure we have the network of post offices that we have at present. Yes, the Senator is correct in that the transactions are falling. It is a challenge for us to try to get new people and younger people into the business but we are working hard at it and agency banking is bringing in that younger generation. One of the issues that came out of the banking forum in the Behaviour and Attitudes survey that it conducted was that it asked consumers what they wanted out of their bank, not their post office. They said that they wanted value, access, trust and security and we can deliver all of those four requirements and are well placed to fill the gap that some of the banks-----

Various services such as Postbank came and went. Are there any proposals from An Post as an entity in this regard? I acknowledge I am putting that to IPU officials. Postbank existed but did it then die?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Yes, it did ten or 15 years ago. The issue in banking and serious loans is a capital issue. For instance, 40,000 or 45,000 mortgages were issued in the country last year. If one mortgage was done by each post office per month, approximately €2.7 billion would be needed; that is 12,000 mortgages a year. To finance one mortgage a month, then, for 1,000 post offices there is a capital requirement of €2.7 billion. Who will generate that kind of capital?

The post office comprises the withdrawals, lodgements and the cheque clearing. Have An Post or the union had any discussions with Bank of Ireland or AIB about this? I get the impression that the banks would love to leave retail banking, or certainly reduce their footprint significantly, and have done this.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

We are doing Bank of Ireland business since last August or September and we have the full range of their services. We do not have the full range of AIB services and we understand that An Post is negotiating with AIB to provide more services. We do not have Permanent TSB but we see a future for us in doing transactions. We are accessible, secure and trusted.

To conclude, because I am conscious of time as other members wish to contribute, but what else can this committee do and what government services does the IPU want the Government to give to the union that it does not have? Is it the electoral register, more social welfare, verification of jobseekers’, or what else? Can the union give me a list of five services it wants and let us go to look for them?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

We have listed them already. We want identity verification, form generation, the green conduit as in local access to all government services.

With the greatest respect, they all sound a bit vague. Can the union tell me that it wishes to do A, B, C and D? Is it identity verification for jobseekers?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Yes.

Is it form filling for passports or driver's licences? Can the union give the committee a list that it wants and let us prepare a report and send it to each relevant Department, be it the Departments of Social Protection, Transport, Public Expenditure and Reform, or whichever else?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

My understanding is that has been done and is currently being examined by an interdepartmental committee. All the services that-----

When was that done because I am relatively new to this committee? Was that done three years or three months ago?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

The committee was set up by the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, in March of last year and is currently compiling its report, which we understand is imminent.

We can follow that up.

Yes, we can follow that up as time is of the essence. My last point is-----

Please, Senator Horkan.

Can the union representatives explain the cliff edge in June?

The Senator had one question and he made reference to the previous speaker. I have four to five more members who wish to make a contribution and we are caught for time. I thank the Senator and we now move, with the indulgence of Senator Buttimer, to Deputy Ó Murchú, who will contribute ahead of the Senator.

Gabhaim buíochas and I thank, in particular, Senator Buttimer. I will go straight into this as to when exactly is the cliff edge meant to occur?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

It will occur at the end of June.

It will occur in the end of June. This is the cliff edge that we had spoken about previously before the pandemic.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Yes.

To talk turkey, the union very much needs a solution.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

We need a solution by the end of June because, as we have explained earlier, we have an agreement with An Post to support us financially until the end of this year. If that support is not extended by Government investment, postmasters will decide if they are staying in business or not

Is Mr. O Hara willing to put a financial figure on that pandemic support and on what that is worth on an annual basis at the moment?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

I believe An Post has the exact figure. An Post is currently negotiating what we will get for the next six months.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

I do not have the exact figure.

The question then is: how does that equate to the €12 million referred to?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

It is almost the same.

That is the figure I need.

That is the figure that will cover it. I am not going to repeat what has been said. We all accept the fabulous work that is done and the complete necessity of the post office network, whether that is in urban settings - what the union is saying about post offices in urban settings being in danger of closing is frightening - but it is an absolute necessity and is a major part of rural infrastructure.

We are talking about the necessity of the €12 million, in a perfect world, for the services that the post office is offering at this point in time. On the issue of any other services, such as the wider banking services referred to, or if the post offices are offered State services, is that money on top of that €12 million, which would make the system more sustainable? I know that the union will not engage in a negotiation here, and certainly not with this speaker.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

We are open to what that solution would be. For instance, if the Government comes up with more services, perhaps that €12 million figure will reduce.

There is an algorithm of sorts then. It is what Deputy O’Rourke said earlier, which is that we need the Government to come up with and offer a solution as soon as possible because there is not a great deal of time left.

Mr. Sean Martin

If I may interject, please, Chairman. I will put another solution to the committee, which is around banking. We all understand the importance of banking in a functioning society. We are saying now that we have the biggest branch network out there with 900 post offices. We have that access of being available in every community.

The broadband is good enough.

Mr. Sean Martin

We have cash, broadband, trust and we welcome the customer coming in the door, unlike some of the banks who will push the customer towards the machine rather than towards the friendly personal service. The State receives a banking levy at the moment in the region of €90 million. The banks are pulling out of rural Ireland and some are pulling out of the country. Let us say to the banks that we use a portion of that money so that people can access everyday banking in our communities throughout Ireland for the next three, five, six or ten years, and we are only looking at €12 million of that levy. The Government is not now paying anything towards the survival of the post office network but the banks are paying it to ensure that communities still have banking.

I am very glad that Mr. Martin has offered that suggestion because my next point was on banking services. While I might not like to let banks off the hook, the fact is that we are dealing with the reality that they have left and are leaving a significant number of even sizeable rural towns.

The post office, as Mr. Martin said, is trusted, is there and has the capacity, so it makes complete sense. It may be a solution at both ends, for want of a better phrase, and something we probably need to do a piece of work on. I thank him for that. We had heard constantly everything was going to come from this interdepartmental review process. Is that now imminent?

Mr. Sean Martin

We are hopeful.

Okay. It needs to be because both things are overlapping and linked. I am not going to hold everything up. Mr. Martin said it is €12 million but there is a negotiation. The IPU has offered everything with respect to what services and also a solution to the fact banks are leaving. I thank our guests for their time.

I thank our guests for attending. Everything I wanted to say has been said. The important point is we listen to the contributions today, recognising the four pillars of a post office network in the context of reliability, reach, resilience and relevance should be at the forefront of everything we do.

Mr. Tom O’Callaghan from Limerick, whom the Chairman knows, of the Independent Postmasters Group made an important point to us, stating: "There must be a focus on new products, capital investment and government services for the network". I support the post office network. We all live in challenging times. A modern approach is needed, as Mr. O'Hara has said and I look forward to meeting the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, in the coming weeks.

I have a question on the €12 million. It is a per annum figure. Is it the minimum or the maximum? Is it just about enough?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

It is a minimum.

It is a minimum and a per annum figure.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Yes. In our view it should be reviewed every three to five years.

All right. I thank the Chairman.

In that context, I assume the pandemic supports from An Post back to postmasters were subject of negotiation between parties. Let us say the figure is approximately €12 million. What was the basis of that?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

It was complicated.

I ask because if that payment is to go now, what was the financial basis that underpinned it? That would obviously provide huge validity to what is currently happening in negotiations with Government.

Mr. Sean Martin

If the Chairman does not mind my interrupting, the way they worked it related to the business lost throughout the pandemic. They put a value on that, which was close enough to €12 million. That is why they said the €12 million was needed to sustain that network for the next 12-month period.

Has that business come back since the pandemic has in some way lifted?

Mr. Sean Martin

Social welfare has come back due to what the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, has done on jobseeker's but some of the mails business has depleted, so we are probably just balancing ourselves out as things are.

What is depleted? Mr. Martin means postage.

Mr. Sean Martin

The postage side of it and the mails because as more and more shops opened the online business fell back.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

And foreign exchange.

Mr. Sean Martin

Yes.

I will come back in later just to give context. We move to Senator Craughwell.

I thank the Chairman. The gentlemen are very welcome. As a leader of a trade union in a former life, I only wish I had the commitment the IPU officers have. Their work on behalf of the members is second to none.

The more questions we have heard this afternoon the more depressed I have become. I am almost about to go over to our guests and tell them to do themselves a favour by shutting down, going home and forgetting about it because it is just not going to work. I look at the services post offices provide. Mr. O'Hara made the point there about the community services post offices provide. I have been lost in rural Ireland and called into the local post office to get directions. Whoever gave me those directions gave me their time and got nothing for it in return. I certainly did not put my hand in my pocket and ask how much per hour I should pay for that. There is tourist information and everything else that was mentioned. There is the bereaved family. The first place they can go is the postmaster who will sit down with a widow or widower after a funeral and help them through the complexities of dealing with Government. Has the IPU at any stage quantified the effort in time post offices devote to those type of activities in order that it could be valued?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

No, we have never done time and motion on it. We have not because it just gets too complex. It is about the size of the network. People need to understand the scale of the network as well. When we are talking about solutions, we used to talk about if we had the CAO forms, of which there are approximately 70,000 each year, and if we got half of them. It would not even be one transaction per week for the year for 1,000 post offices. It is about the scale of this. We know we provide the service. We have not tried to quantify it because we try to keep on a level about that. We are trying to get a macro solution rather than go into the nitty-gritty of each individual service we provide.

It is provided willingly, as Mr. Martin said earlier. It is not that we do not want to do it. We provide the service willingly. Most postmasters will say they like their job. I do not get depressed when I think about it because most postmasters, when I deal with them, are positive people who provide a service and they look forward. They assume the thing is going to get fixed up. They assume somebody in government will have enough sense to say this service is important and we do not need to lose it but there is danger it will be lost through inaction. I said to the Chairman earlier that what we want is a decision. We do not want a "Maybe" decision. We want either a "Yes" or a "No" decision. It is not a forever decision. It is something that needs to be reviewed. The world is changing. We are celebrating our 100th conference in two weeks. We are providing completely different service now than we did 100 years ago. Will we be around in 100 years? None of us will be around to know but we will be around for the next five to ten years. I expect there will be post offices. We just need to plan for them and have somebody make a decision and say this is a service and it is worthwhile.

Mr. Sean Martin

I will come in on my own private experience, though I know it is not exclusive to me. We talk about social value. I ended up going to a funeral of one of our social welfare recipients recently. The daughter of the person who died came to me and said her mother would have been delighted I had come because I was the only person she had seen outside her family for the past year. That is the sort of service we give that is not recompensed or not recognised. We are valuable and we are just hoping the Government sees that and works on it and actions it.

I would like the following to find its way into any report we might do: modern life and modern governance requires there is a return on investment by way of profit or whatever to the State. If we are going to give post offices €12 million we want to see what we are going to get back out of it. However, some things in life simply are not quantifiable. Mr. O'Hara put his finger on it when he said the IPU never assessed this and there is no way, really, to assess it. Mr. Martin made the point of attending the funeral of somebody whose only point of contact with the outside world was him. I am sure Mr. McEntee and his wife have a key position within the community where people can trust that if they go down to the McEntees with a problem they do not know how to resolve, he will have an answer for it. He might spend three quarters of an hour with them trying to assist them in working their way through the system. There is no way to quantify that service to the public. In a way it is a sort of social service and all sorts of other things. Sometimes we must be willing to put capital into those things that keep communities together.

We are losing banks and petrol pumps in local villages. We are losing everything in the drive for profit. Some things cannot be based on profit and must be recognised as a public service. In keeping communities in rural Ireland together I believe, as I have always believed, the post office is the central key point for all of them.

I do not know how this works, but if I want to get an An Post credit card or one of its other services such as a current account or whatever, I assume I can process my form through one of the witnesses' post offices. Do they get anything after my form is submitted? I am sure they get a payment for the form but what happens after that?

Mr. Sean Martin

Most of the banking is done online through An Post so there is very little personal interaction but we do have the application form and on the back of it is our GROF - post office - number. If people use that number when applying online, we get a small payment.

Do the post offices get a transaction payment?

Mr. Sean Martin

We get a transaction payment only if people come into a post office either to lodge or withdraw with their card, but if they do their business online, we get no payment.

If I buy stuff online or whatever-----

Mr. Sean Martin

No payment.

Banks get a kickback on everything they do. I appreciate what Grant Thornton did and the macro view from a purely commercial point of view, but there is a side to the post office that is not commercial and cannot be quantified. I do not know how we can square that circle, and there is no answer the witnesses can give me today. I have listened to their answers and everything else. Mr. O'Hara has been very clear there things that cannot be quantified, yet Mrs. Murphy knows that next Thursday she can go to the local post office and, when she walks in there, she will get the same welcome as she has always got, and if she has something she needs to be sorted out, the staff will always find a quiet corner in which they can talk to her and solve the problem. That situation is worth a damn sight more than €12 million to the economy as far as I am concerned.

I will not waste the time of these men by asking questions that have already been asked. I appreciate their time and envy the commitment from their members. It is tremendous. They are some guys because they rarely ever leave a month go by without making some contact. Well done and congratulations.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

I thank the Senator and we appreciate his kind words.

Mr. Ciarán McEntee

Earlier the Senator made a comment that the post office is for older people. The post office is for young people. People would want to get it into their heads that not everyone has a car. If the husband is out working during the week, the wife and children can come from school and go into the post office, get the children's allowance or even take money out to do the shopping. Around where I live, it is all young people and people in their 30s who have families who are using the post office. We do not have many old age pensioners now and a lot of young people use post offices now. As Mr. O'Hara has said, young people use the post office far more for banking because they need money for the school, football and others things, so they are in and out of the post office as well as using it for parcels and sending different things. There is a young generation who use post offices now.

On that very question, back in the day when I was a kid myself, when we were at school we had a post office savings book. I think it was stamps at the time, if I am not mistaken. We used to buy penny stamps or something and we would save up a fiver for Christmas or whatever. Do children use the saving services of the post office or do they all use the bank?

Mr. Ciarán McEntee

Many people open post office saving, POS, books for young children and put money in them. This morning I had to ring Mr. Martin as a lady had contacted me to learn what to do with an account as she had put away money for her daughter but now her daughter had reached 21 years and the account has matured. So there are a lot of people using this service. All of our members are self-employed so we promote post office services to people all of the time. Many people open a POS book as a means to save money for their children's college or secondary school fees. There is a young generation and if we get the chance, we will market post office services. We are self-employed so we must sell services. If we want to get people into post offices, we will go out and sell it.

Mr. Sean Martin

The Senator has made an important point. The post office savings bank book is a manual book, so it is not electronic, there are no charges and we take cash, cheques and coins for free from everyone. The number of people who use that service on an ongoing basis is growing because they have access. Plus, it is harder to get money out of it because it is now a savings product. If I am out having a few jars, I cannot go to the ATM and take out €20 that I was saving for a holiday or Christmas. It is harder to do it. More and more people are beginning to realise that and, thankfully, that is a huge help. I thank the Senator for bringing the matter to our attention.

I hope I have not reduced the union's argument by insisting there should be a public service fee available to postmasters and postmistresses. The sum of €12 million is a small amount of money to keep them alive.

I wish to raise an issue and then Deputy Healy-Rae, who is not a member of the committee, wants to comment.

I want to encapsulate this issue so that it is not abstract. I am a Deputy in Limerick city and I cover the area of north County Tipperary. I am also an accountant by training and I have looked at this on a practical level. I am aware this is causing difficulties for urban, rural and city areas regardless of their size.

A critical dates is 30 June because that is the date by which postmasters must decide and must give six months' notice, while the pandemic supports from An Post will last until the end of December. We will have the Minister before the committee on 1 June, which is two or three days prior to the annual conference, and we are looking for representatives of An Post to attend as well. I know there have been difficulties getting new people to take up the contracts as people have retired or are retiring. People setting up as a postmaster cannot do it in a hole in the wall, as it were, anymore. They have to rent, and in many cases rent good premises.

A question we did not touch on today is how many people are employed in the post offices run by the members Mr. O'Hara represents.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Not counting the postmasters, there are about 1,500 full-time equivalents, FTEs.

That is 1,500, and adding another 800 gives the bones of 2,500 people. That is a substantial number of people. Did the Bank of Ireland contract contribute significantly to a reduction of the figure of €17 million to €12 million?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Not seven numbers but the figure is growing.

If extra services come from AIB, will that make a big difference to the return for Mr. O'Hara's members?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

It will make a big difference but not enough to close the gap of €12 million.

What about the likes of Ulster Bank and KBC, which are pulling out?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

We imagine that the transactions will translate to other retail banks. I am an Ulster Bank customer and I will switch to the Bank of Ireland whenever I get around to it. I presume customers will become Bank of Ireland customers and so on.

I remember many years ago when people were looking at setting up businesses and creating networks, a now very prominent businessman spoke about setting up a network for a particular type of business. It was the network that was going to cost the money. I have always been of the view that there is an inherent value in the An Post network. On the question of dismantling it, we dismantled the railway network and now we are trying to restore it. Has the question been discussed of An Post, as distinct from the State, providing for the retention of that €12 million per annum until such a time as extra services come on board to get the network to a point where it is able to re-establish commercial viability?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Not with us.

Why not?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

I do not know. I cannot speak for An Post in the matter. We recognise the immediacy of our situation, but there are several different opportunities that need to be examined. For instance, there is going to be a banking commission. That is not going to report for 12 to 18 months. The urgency of our situation needs to be recognised.

What if €12 million was put in place in the form of a bridging payment over the next three years?

This would mean that extra services would come on board for the likes of AIB. Mr. Martin has made reference to many services postmasters provide at present for which they are not being paid. I have no doubt that they have fed that into the commission. The problem for the Irish Postmasters Union is that if something is not put in place, it runs the risk that one in four postmasters will terminate their contracts. In my experience, the bulk of those will not be taken up by new postmasters under the current arrangement. Is that a fair comment?

Mr. Ned O'Hara

There is a risk.

Are we at a cliff edge? Decisions have to be made by 30 June, but I assume the cliff edge for the Irish Postmasters Union is the middle of June.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

The cliff edge for us will be the conference because people will be looking to us for direction.

That is on 4 June.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

Yes. Postmasters will be looking to us for direction. They will ask us what is happening and what they should do. We have been stalling people from making decisions, pending something happening.

I have dealt with two local cases recently: one was the temporary closure of a post office which caused panic among people in the area and the other was getting someone to replace a retiring postmaster. I am aware of this. I assume that postmasters want to be self-financing. Are there any circumstances whereby if the money is not put in place, they can stay in business?

Mr. Sean Martin

I do not think so. As Senator Craughwell said, we provide many invaluable services and cannot be valued. Economics should never come into it. The role of the post office in community is so much more than economics-----

That goes without saying.

Mr. Sean Martin

-----and therefore €12 million, to be able to access banking services in one's locality alone, is good value for money. This is a good news story for the Government because-----

Is a postmaster regulated by any State entity at present?

Mr. Sean Martin

We are regulated by Central Bank requirements with regard to State savings.

Are postmasters required to file returns to the Central Bank?

Mr. Sean Martin

No. The company is required to file them on our behalf.

Do An Post staff file them?

Mr. Sean Martin

Yes.

Postmasters are, in essence, being regulated.

Mr. Sean Martin

Yes.

Mr. Martin spoke about a banking levy which would obviously be in regard to the regulation of banking services. What can be done, in terms of €12 million, to quantify the services that will be provided for that money? That is the key for me at this point. Everyone accepts that the post office network must be maintained. The question is one of finding the solution or conduit which enables the network to get to that point. Bank of Ireland appears to have made a difference. AIB will make a difference. Obviously, some other State contracts should come up along the way. There will be a concentration-----

As the Chair is speaking, I am thinking of my home county of Galway and the town of Athenry. Monivea and Menlo which are two small villages outside of Athenry. All have post offices. The banks are moving away from places such as Athenry and it is difficult to carry out any banking transaction. If Monivea and Menlo post offices close, then it does not matter what age I am, if I want to carry out a transaction, I have to travel to Athenry. I am looking at an eight-mile or nine-mile journey.

I know that.

One cannot pay for that.

I know what is going on. Mr. O'Hara will be aware that the negotiations here are about finding the fit in order that everyone can effectively say money is being given for activities. We all know how great the post office network is and what services it provides. I was an accountant in a past life. When someone was setting up in business back then, I would want to see a post office, a school, a bank and a church. Church numbers are down. What is left? The post office. I would have had clients such as chemists who were looking to set up. We wanted to see footfall. Post offices gave a significant indication of footfall. They were vital. That goes without saying.

However, the clock is ticking. The post office network is facing into what will happen in a short number of weeks. My worry is that something is being missed in the services postmasters are providing for which they are entitled to be paid. Mr. O'Hara made reference to the UK in terms of postmasters being paid. I am not saying the Irish Postmasters Union has not done so, but I ask that it cast a cold eye to see whether services are being provided by An Post for which it is not being paid. We know all about the community service that postmasters provide, but we are down to ensuring that €12 million comes forward from the Government to ensure the post office network can survive in rural and urban areas. What is being missed is that city post offices, in many cases, are under just as much pressure. I ask those present to recap on the services.

Mr. Sean Martin

The one service that could represent considerable value for money is with regard to formal identification.

I ask Mr. Martin to explain that.

Mr. Sean Martin

This is specifically with regard to social welfare. We all understand the fraud that is in the system. We believe we should be the ID verification agency for a pensioner or a person on jobseeker's allowance, one-parent family payment or disability allowance every two years, to make sure the person is still in the State and in the community.

Postmasters would get paid for that.

Mr. Sean Martin

Yes. I think that €12 million would be considerable value for that service.

Does Mr. Martin believe it is possible to come up with a mechanism to use that €12 million for a service or activity that is based on a fee per item? We need to show that all postmasters are being paid on the same model and that rather than it being a lump sum, the service is basically based on transactions. I know I am asking a lot but for me it is very simple. We have to find a mechanism whereby post offices get the money and the State can show value for money. That goes without saying. The post office network's model has always been around transactions on items. Can it find a way of getting the €12 million to fit into that?

Mr. Sean Martin

I think we could.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

An Post is an experienced bureaucracy with regard to measuring stuff. I am sure we would be able to devise a system to measure.

For me, it is about the result. This committee is completely behind the post office. We support the Grant Thornton report but, ultimately, we want to get a result for the Irish Postmasters Union's members. Some 2,500 people are employed. There are postmasters up and down the country, in both urban and rural areas. We will support the post office. We will follow up with the Minister, the Department and An Post. Would Mr. O'Hara, Mr. Martin or Mr. McEntee like to make any closing comments?

Mr. Sean Martin

The Irish Postmasters Union, as a group of ordinary people who look after their communities, is optimistic that the Government will do the right thing. It is a good-news story and a win for the communities and the 1.3 million customers who use us on a weekly basis. It is a win for the local businesses and shops that rely on the money we hand out locally. It is a win for the banks that are pulling out of communities because they want to see access being made available. It is a win for the marginalised, the financially excluded, the computer illiterate and people with disabilities. It is a win for An Post and postmasters but, overall, this is a win for the Government.

Mr. Ned O'Hara

I cannot argue with that.

We will be following up with the Minister on Wednesday, 1 June, which is three days before the Irish Postmasters Union conference. We will be following up with An Post and we will look for it to come into us. Obviously, we will follow up with the Government. We wish postmasters well and thank them for the service they provide. However, we aware it is a business for people who are making a livelihood. If the figures do not add up and from what we are hearing back, they do not, there is a problem and that has to be resolved. We thank Mr. O'Hara, Mr. Martin and Mr. McEntee for assisting in today's meeting on the future of the post office network.

Sitting suspended at 3.29 p.m. and resumed at 3.35 p.m.
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