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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 25 May 2022

Shannon Group: Chairperson Designate

The joint committee resumes in public session for an engagement with Mr. Conal Henry, chair-designate of Shannon Group. I welcome Mr. Henry to the committee and thank him for his patience. We look forward to hearing from him.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statement is potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that they be physically present in the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. Reluctantly, I will not permit a member to participate when he or she is not able to meet this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. I ask any member participating using Microsoft Teams to confirm that he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making his or her contribution. Members attending in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I ask Mr. Henry to make his opening statement.

Mr. Conal Henry

I thank the committee for inviting me to attend today’s meeting. I was honoured to have been asked to take on the role of chairperson at Shannon Group by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, with the agreement of the Government. It is a privilege to attend this committee as chair-designate of Shannon Group. I will start by telling the committee about my background. I am originally from Belfast and now live in Dublin. I graduated in law from Queen's University Belfast in 1991 and I am a member of the Chartered Institute of Management Accountants. I have over 15 years of experience at board level in both executive and non-executive roles across the aviation, telecom, retail and banking sectors. Over the years, I have gained comprehensive board and corporate governance experience, both in chair and non-executive director positions. I am the founder and chair of Fibrus, a telecommunications provider which has raised £500 million to invest in broadband infrastructure in the North of Ireland. Before Fibrus, I spent 12 years as CEO of Limerick-based Enet, a telecoms provider, taking it from start-up to its £200 million acquisition by the Irish Infrastructure Fund in 2017. As CEO of Enet, l also led what is now known as National Broadband Ireland, NBI, to become the winning bidder for the €2 billion Irish national broadband plan. Prior to Enet, I was commercial director at Ryanair, which gave me a good insight into how airlines think and operate, in particular into how the airline identified and developed new routes. It is important to stress that I have spent a significant amount of my time in the mid-west over the years. As well as running Enet for 12 years, I also served two terms as a director of the Shannon Foynes Port Company so I have a good understanding of the challenges associated with the region and with its economic issues.

This is an unprecedented period of challenge for airports globally and for the entire aviation industry. This sector has been devastated by Covid-19 and there is no one in the industry that is not facing significant challenges. We need to recognise that and, as we emerge from the pandemic, that the aviation landscape has changed. The aviation industry, route patterns and work patterns are different. We must quickly learn what is temporary and what is permanent. We must develop plans to adapt to that and find ways to identify and deal with the new threats and opportunities that emerge from this landscape in post-pandemic Ireland.

I want to talk about the Shannon Group's potential. The importance of the Shannon Group in supporting the regional economy does not escape me. It is the beating heart at the centre of prosperity in the mid-west and our entire Atlantic corridor. At the core of this group is Shannon Airport, which provides essential air connectivity that supports businesses and the livelihoods of thousands of people in the west of Ireland. It is a vital national strategic interest that plays an essential part in bringing business people, tourists and cargo into the region. As a gateway, the airport assists with the dispersal of international tourists, particularly US visitors, to the benefit of tourism, hospitality and service businesses right along the Wild Atlantic Way. Over the years, Shannon Group has contributed significantly to economic activity and growth in the mid-west region. I am already confident it will rebound fully, and the committee has my full commitment to assisting with this in whatever way I can.

I also believe that working together with the team in Shannon, the board and stakeholders across the region, we can build back stronger. All of the ingredients are there for this to happen. The group is uniquely placed to act as a catalyst for future economic growth through its mix of business activities. It has a successful property portfolio, a strong investment strategy and the airport is recovering well from one of the worst catastrophes in the history of global aviation. There is a strong management team at Shannon Group with a good business plan in place. One only has to look at last week’s announcement by Ryanair of a €10 million investment, creating 200 jobs at the airport, as a clear vote of confidence in the group’s CEO, Mary Considine, and her team, from our largest airline. The group has made huge strides in its ambition to build back air traffic. The immediate focus at Shannon has concentrated on restoring passenger traffic and I am pleased to see the airport already recovering, with 26 services to 11 countries on offer this summer.

Prior to the outbreak of the pandemic, 1.7 million passengers travelled through Shannon Airport per year. It is important to remember that in early 2020, Shannon Airport was set for a year of growth, with new routes and having secured locally-based aircraft. Since its establishment, the Shannon Group has invested €146 million, demonstrating its commitment to stimulating regional growth. As part of this, it has regenerated the Shannon free zone on its campus, stimulating foreign direct investment and indigenous investment and jobs for young people around the region. Recovery is not a given, however, and it will only happen through the concerted efforts of all stakeholders pulling in the same direction.

In my role as chair, but also as a citizen, I remain deeply concerned at the widening gap between Dublin and our other four airports. In Ireland, the east coast airport captures 87% of all travellers, while the four other airports in the west compete for the remaining 13%. This undermines balanced regional development and will destroy competitiveness unless a way is found to create a more coherent airport offering. Government support to date for Shannon has been welcome and I thank the committee for its role in securing this. In the medium term, however, to allow them to fulfil their potential, airports like Shannon need continued support. I would advocate for the airport to remain in the regional airports programme and I ask the committee today to support this move.

I want to assure the committee that I have not sought the role of chair on a whim. It is something which I have sought for some time. I know there will be challenges ahead but I have dealt with many challenges in my time and I am looking forward to working with the team to bring whatever expertise I have and whatever support I can to bear to make the most of the opportunities that I know exist for Shannon Group. My focus as chair will be on working with the CEO and board on the recovery of Shannon Airport in the aftermath of what has been one of the most challenging periods the global aviation industry has ever faced.

I am ambitious for the group. While restoring pre-pandemic traffic levels will be crucial, that does not mean we stop there. I will do everything in my power to support the group to fulfil its vision of reaching further to build a thriving, connected place. In a wider context, I strongly believe that, with the right policy supports, it should be possible to grow Shannon and to provide the vital air connectivity into our airport that will deliver a balanced economy for our citizens.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, it has not escaped my attention that Shannon has an unparalleled reputation for driving innovation. As chair, I hope to ensure the group builds on that tradition. As we decarbonise our economy, there is an opportunity to develop the Shannon Estuary into what might be called the Aberdeen of offshore wind. That will require a clear, co-ordinated approach. I will ensure Shannon Group plays a full and proactive role in realising this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for the mid-west. As chair, it will be my privilege to lead the board and to guide Shannon Group on its journey through recovery, rebuilding and growth. I am committed to pursuing Shannon Group's mission of restoring airport traffic and to building on its strong property investment strategy, all of which will enhance the group's economic contribution to the mid-west and nationally. I welcome the opportunity to work with the CEO and the board to ensure Shannon Group continues to deliver successfully through the years ahead. I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it. I would be happy to take Members' questions.

Before I move to Members for questions, I acknowledge the presence of Irish Naval Association members from Limerick and Cork along with my colleague from Limerick City and County Council, Sarah Kiely, in the audience. I thank them for their work. It is great to have them here.

Mr. Henry is very welcome to the committee. I thank him for his opening statement. I had the pleasure of meeting him in Shannon a couple of weeks ago. His passion and his ambition for Shannon are very clear and he has set them out in his opening statement.

It is clearly evident that Shannon has not reached its potential. One of the key reasons for that is national aviation policy. Mr. Henry will be aware from his movements around the mid-west and the western seaboard, working with different organisations, that this is a glaring omission. As he said in his opening statement, the importance of an airport as an economic driver in a region cannot be overstated. As he says, Shannon Airport is the heartbeat of the mid-west. One aspect of that is the inclusion of Shannon in the Regional Airports Forum, which I advocate strongly. It was right that Shannon was included this year, but I want to see a stronger statement from the Government and the Minister. I look forward to working with Mr. Henry, this committee and the Shannon Airport Oireachtas group to put a robust case to the Government for our inclusion in that stream going forward. This is fully coherent with EU state aid rules because any airport with fewer than 3 million passengers should be incorporated into that fund, yet this year was the first in which Shannon Airport received funding. We can see the impact of that funding in the X-ray scanners and the security apparatus. It is cutting-edge stuff. Shannon Airport was the first airport in Ireland and, dare I say, one of the first airports in Europe where passengers can just go through the airport. Passengers in Dublin Airport, for example, have to go through two security checks to go to the US. In Shannon, they have to go through just one. It is fantastic. It has got a lot of coverage recently. I congratulate those involved on that. I look forward to working with Mr. Henry closely on that.

Limerick Chamber completed the Copenhagen Economics report in conjunction with Ennis, Galway and Shannon chambers. That is a very significant piece of work. It was completed in late 2019, in a pre-pandemic era, but highlights that Shannon Airport was not reaching its potential then, with 1.7 million passengers and only 36% of the capacity of the airport being used. We can do far better but we need the support of the national aviation policy to kick in behind us. I think that is recognised in other countries such as the Netherlands, Finland and Austria, which are referred to in the report. We need to build on that and to place it as part of our robust engagement with the Government on the issue.

I compliment the Shannon Group on its property portfolio. It has been a roaring success since the establishment of Shannon Group. Ten years ago vast tracts of the Shannon Free Zone were derelict and unoccupied. I think the zone was only 40% occupied. There is now an occupancy rate of over 90% and nearly 100%. There are very strong companies based there such as Jaguar Land Rover and MeiraGTx, and there is the expansion of Ei Electronics. That is really significant. Only the other day Ryanair took over hangar 5. I encourage Shannon Group to continue to do the work it is doing in that regard. I look forward to a major logistics company coming to the region, on the apron of the airport. I will not mention its name. It is doing really well there.

The Shannon Heritage sites are a blot on the Shannon Group.

You may wish to conclude, Deputy.

I will. I will come back. I would like Mr. Henry to give an update on the transfer from Shannon Group to Clare County Council and to touch on the issues I have raised with him.

Mr. Conal Henry

I thank Deputy Carey for what in parts amounted to a rolling advertisement for Shannon Airport. I really appreciate the support. He is absolutely correct that the services available in Shannon Airport now are state of the art. I think members of the committee came to see the new scanning facility. It is incredible. The time it takes to pass through security in Shannon Airport versus the time it takes in the major airport in this State is chalk and cheese. I think using Shannon Airport can remind travellers what using an airport can be like. I passed through another airport this week and put out a tweet stating it felt more like an evacuation than a departure. We were told to stand here and to go there. It is a very unsatisfactory experience to be put through an airport in that way, and it is not like that in Shannon Airport. It is very important we, as a group of stakeholders, remind potential consumers that Shannon Airport is a joy to use.

As for the Regional Airports Forum, I agree 100% that that level of financial support from the State is crucial in allowing us to invest in the likes of new scanning infrastructure, new air bridges and so on, and to continue to enhance the experience for our travellers. That is crucial. The Deputy is right that this year was the first year of Shannon Airport's inclusion in the forum, even though it is available to airports with passenger numbers under 3 million. We really need that and we will work hard to try to convince the Government of that. The committee's support in that regard is greatly appreciated, both in the past and going forward.

As for airport policy, I am very clear on the problem. I have read the Copenhagen Economics report. It is an excellent report. It illustrates the problem with our airport structure in this State. It is very lopsided. There are four airports in the western and south-western half of the State and one on the eastern seaboard, and the latter takes 87% of all the State's traffic. The region does not contain 80% of the State's population. Today I came straight through Vienna International Airport, an airport of 25 million passengers. It is a much more integrated airport. We need to think about our airport policy in this State. I appreciate that it brings up very local and very political issues, but for the sake of what the State looks like to the outside world, we really need to address the issue of the imbalance in airport traffic.

I thank Deputy Carey for mentioning the property portfolio. As is always the case with property portfolios, occupancy is important, but all the occupants of Shannon Commercial Properties sites are job creators and they generate and create economic value in the mid-west. In my previous life running a company called Enet, we could see the use of the Shannon Free Zone really take off. It is a very important engine for economic growth in the mid-west.

I asked about the heritage sites.

Mr. Conal Henry

I think work is ongoing between Clare County Council and management on that. We hope to complete the transfer in the near future. Some issues need to be ironed out. I am confident they can be ironed out with willing engagement on all sides, which I think we will get.

Will Mr. Henry give a timeframe for-----

Mr. Conal Henry

I cannot right now.

I am approaching my role as if that is a piece of work, and I have left it to management to get it done. Management is telling me that it is on its way. I might be wrong in that. Heritage used to be part of this portfolio, so I am not addressing it as the incoming chair. I may need to, but I do not believe I will.

The Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, has agreed to a corporate governance review of the Shannon Group. Has that work started and does Mr. Henry know when it will be completed?

Mr. Conal Henry

I do not know when it will be completed. The Shannon Group's focus needs to be on external factors in terms of the changes in the economic environment and the airline industry. As a board and a management team, we will give our full support to that review, but I cannot give the Deputy an arrival date for it.

I thank Mr. Henry.

I welcome Mr. Henry and am delighted to see him at this meeting. I thank him for hosting us at the airport recently. It was appreciated.

I have one eye on the screen because I am due to speak in the Dáil Chamber in seven minutes, so I will get straight into my questions. People in Clare and the wider mid-west are excited by Mr. Henry's appointment. They see it as giving new life and new hope to the airport yet again. However, there is a lingering question over Mr. Pádraig Ó Céidigh's resignation. How will Mr. Henry's tenure be different from his? Is Mr. Henry there to stay and does he feel that the current managerial configuration allows him a meaningful function in the airport's running?

Mr. Conal Henry

I am not going to discuss my predecessor in any great depth because I am not him and am not here to represent him. I am here to represent myself, the management and the board. As far as I am concerned, there is an excellent management team in the airport. I have come down and spent the past eight weeks working with the team. I have seen my fair share of management teams in my time and this is a good one. I feel confident about that and that the team can deliver for the organisation, with the right level of support from the board. I will work with the board to ensure that happens.

I am here to stay. I did 12 years at Enet and two full terms with the harbour company. I am not a guy who passes through.

How often does the board meet?

Mr. Conal Henry

I believe there are eight board meetings per year and there are a number of sub-committees as well, but I am essentially in daily contact with management. If a body is only doing its business at board meetings, it is not doing its business.

That answers the question I was going to ask next. If the chair of a board is solely a chair, he or she arrives at board meetings, has knowledge of what happens but does not know the day-to-day workings. I would use the analogy of a school in this regard, with the principal running the school and the chairperson of its board rubber-stamping decisions. I believe Mr. Henry understands that the airport needs more than that. The fact that he has daily contact is reassuring, as that is what is required. Since the time of Mr. Brendan O'Regan, there has been a vision of where Shannon needs to go. Those who have led the airport down the years have not been managing it in the here and now. Instead, they have been thinking five to ten years ahead and positioning the airport for that.

I wish to ask two questions about the airport's positioning. We are on the cusp of preparing a new national aviation policy. The current one is defunct and bears no relevance as we exit Covid. What are Mr. Henry's thoughts on what needs to happen to rebalance aviation and give a larger share back to Shannon? I spoke to Mr. Henry about another matter when we met him at the airport. Shannon has a considerable role to play in sustainable aviation, which is where the sector will go over the next six to seven years. What role has Shannon to play in this?

Mr. Conal Henry

I will pick up on the Deputy's question on how I engage with management. A balance needs to be struck. It is management that manages the business. If someone becomes an executive chair, it can sometimes confuse matters. I have been both a CEO and a chair previously and I believe I have a good understanding of how that balance is struck. It is not my intention to tell management how to run the business - it is doing a good job already. My intention is to support and evaluate the plan, ensure everything is on track and report back to the stakeholders and shareholder. It is management's job to manage the business and I am confident that it is doing a good job.

Regarding national aviation policy, I am clear on what the problem is but I am not as clear on what the solution is. The problem is the imbalance. It is a very severe problem. There are two elements to it. First, there is only one airport on the east coast. Second, there are five airports on the west coast, with four effectively competing for the same business.

And competing with Dublin.

Mr. Conal Henry

And losing passengers to Dublin. Each of those four airports is undermining the competitiveness of the western airport offering, and reducing its ability to compete with the eastern airport offering. Even though there are four airports in the west, there is a significant leakage of people from the west to the east because there is not enough route density at any of those airports. People almost forget that they can fly from them. The routes and frequencies they need are not there. This is a significant problem, one that requires an understanding of how airports function and how people use them. It will require tough political thought processes. I am not sure-----

The terms of reference of the national aviation policy review will be key, and we will look to work with Shannon and Cork in that regard.

I will be speaking in the Chamber in two minutes, so I will be breathless after running there, but I have two final questions. Bringing passengers from the east coast to Shannon needs to be a priority for the airport. The parking charges at Dublin are extortionate.

Mr. Conal Henry

They are.

That someone has to queue for hours at security checks is wrong and off-putting for passengers. Ticket prices are important, but addressing those alone will not get people to fly out of Shannon. We need to improve connectivity. We have dithered around for a long time waiting to see whether coach operators will apply for licences to travel to and from Shannon Airport and make drop-offs there. Mr. Henry is helmsman of the board. Will Shannon Group take this situation by the neck and apply to the National Transport Authority, NTA, to run a service? The group could contract it out to whomever, but such a service would ensure that there are drop-offs at the departure hall of Shannon Airport and that its passenger catchment area is the whole west coast and the midlands.

Will Mr. Henry give an interim commitment to the Shannon Heritage staff and those who depend on tourism in the region? A process is under way and four Departments are convening to consider the transfer, fund it and do it right, but Shannon Group cannot take its eye off the issue. It has managed these sites for a long time. Ms Mary Considine has been CEO since before Mr. Henry entered his role. There is a feeling among staff and people with a grá for these sites that the Shannon Group has taken its eye off the issue. It is like a divorce, in that the ship has sailed and is no longer on the group's priority list. Will Mr. Henry give an interim commitment?

Mr. Conal Henry

I will take the second question first. Shannon Heritage is effectively an exiting issue for me as incoming chair, so it is not high on my list of priorities. However, we are committed to good governance and good practice and, as a management team and board, we will ensure that everyone involved in Shannon Heritage is dealt with in a fair and appropriate manner. There is nothing within how management is dealing with the Shannon Heritage transfer that suggests to me that it is being done other than in the right way. If there is, though, I will deal with it.

Regarding the NTA, I will not give the committee specific commitments because we are working hard on how to maximise bus connectivity. I agree with the Deputy's analysis, in that we need to deepen bus connectivity to the airport. Management is working on that and there will be developments, but I do not want to get hung up on committing to individual actions that may not be the right ones.

I need to run. I thank Mr. Henry and wish him the best of luck in his tenure.

Mr. Conal Henry

I thank the Deputy.

Before we move on, I wish to welcome further members of the Irish Naval Association from Limerick and Cork. It is great to have them here. They are here in great numbers and bringing great colour to Leinster House.

I do not have much to say. I thank Mr. Henry for attending. We had a good visit to Shannon Airport last week. I was able to see as a Dublin-based person who has never flown out of Shannon - it is not unreasonable that I have never flown out of Shannon, given that-----

The Senator is always welcome.

He can fly out more now.

I might. It does not make sense from a State perspective that we have an airport with a capacity of between 4.5 million and 7 million - Mr. Henry might clarify that - but that was only seeing 1.5 million before the pandemic.

Considerable capacity is built, ready and deliverable. National aviation policy can do a certain amount. I would love to see Shannon Airport at 5 million passengers and not in need of any State subsidy. I would love for it not to qualify for a subsidy because it is processing that many passengers. However, we are not there now. It makes sense that the smaller airports qualify for subsidies and the threshold should be raised so Shannon qualifies. However, the market cannot be rigged to force people into flying from Shannon because I do not think that logic works in the long term. That said, Shannon has an awful lot going for it. Travelling through the airport is a pleasurable experience. It is straightforward to get from the car park into, and through, the terminal. The security machines that we saw are amazing because passengers do not have to remove their liquids, laptop, cables and all the rest of it from their bag, as we are used to doing now. Deputy Carey made the point that if someone is travelling across the Atlantic from Dublin, he or she has to pass the ordinary security gates and then pass through security again for the pre-clearance. All of that is included in the first round of security checks in Shannon. The shoes are the main difference between one check and the other.

Shannon has a lot going for it and I am not sure that message is sufficiently understood. I am not having a go at Mr. Henry when I say that, nor am I having a go at Shannon. This is an opportunity for me to say that anybody living in the midlands should be thinking about travelling from Shannon Airport long before they think about travelling from Dublin Airport. Anybody within 50, 100 or 150 miles of Shannon should consider that even though the distance to that airport may be a tiny bit longer, the journey will be completed much more quickly. People travelling will get to the car park quicker and will get through the airport quicker. Their travelling experience will be much more pleasurable.

I once went through London Southend Airport, a smaller airport, and was off the plane and on the train in approximately 12 minutes. They did not even check passports because they did not have to do so under the common travel area arrangements. Because the airport had no other international passengers, its staff were able to waive the requirement to check passports.

I support an examination of national aviation policy. Mr. Henry has skills and knowledge. He is originally from Belfast, lives in Dublin and worked in Limerick. That gives him an all-island experience and understanding of the various demographics involved. He has worked with, and understands, Ryanair, which operates 22 of the 26 scheduled routes out of Shannon. There are three Aer Lingus routes, one United Airlines route and 22 Ryanair routes. I am sure Mr. Henry is still on good terms with Ryanair and that connection is helpful.

I note he is in daily contact with management at the moment and a chairman probably should not be in daily contact over the course of a five-year term. I know he and the management team are on a learning curve. He might touch on how much time he spends, and how much time he envisages spending, doing the job. I am aware he also has other things on his plate and the fee for this job is not exactly a full-time salary.

Mr. Henry has his work cut out, as has Shannon Group, in letting the world, Ireland and the travelling public know how good the airport is. I was not aware how good it is until I got there. I have a great interest in aviation and if I am not that familiar with how good Shannon is, I am sure the rest of the travelling public is not familiar with it either. I presume Shannon is more competitive in respect of landing charges. It is certainly more competitive on car parking. It does not have the density of population in the catchment; that much is obvious. It does not make any sense from a climate change perspective that people should travel from Dublin to Shannon to get on a plane to fly back towards Berlin or the Continent generally. However, there is a positive message to sell about the travelling passengers. It is also all about, dare I say it, bums on seats. It is about volume. The fixed costs are there. The airport needs a volume of passengers.

I am giving a speech rather than asking questions. I would like to hear how Mr. Henry intends to get out the message. Ryanair, for whom he worked, has the best publicity machine ever invented and I do not mean that only with regard to Michael O'Leary as a personality. Ryanair is very good at getting the word out. How does Mr. Henry see his role in that regard? How does he see Shannon being able to tell the world and the Irish public how good it is for travelling out of the country? How can Shannon be marketed as a place where Americans want to land because they want to do the Wild Atlantic Way and go to Connemara, the Burren, Kerry and Limerick? All those places are right beside Shannon. There is no point in flying to Dublin and travelling to the Burren, Limerick or Connemara when Shannon Airport is on the doorstep. Mr. Henry might touch on what skills he can bring to help the management team to sell Shannon.

On the Senator's point, what does Mr. Henry consider the role of a chair of an independent State organisation such as Shannon Group? The Senator asked that question, which I thought a good one.

Mr. Conal Henry

The Chairman knows that I have been a CEO with a chairman and I have been a chairman with a CEO. I have also acted as a non-executive chairman in a number of different industries and sectors. I think I have a clear sense of this. For me, the most successful relationship between a chair and a management team is one where there is a written plan that is agreed upon by all involved. The process is then for the chair and the CEO to consider how they are doing with respect to the plan. If things change, they must consider what that means for the plan and they must consider whether anything needs to be changed. It is a matter of touches to the tiller. As a chairman, one does not go in and do stuff. One lets the management do the stuff and just checks all the time that stuff is getting done that is in line with the plan and that things are as they should be.

There might be some music fans among the committee members. I have another requirement that I talk about as my Radiohead requirement, which is no alarms and no surprises. This year marks the 25th anniversary of OK Computer. Some people might get that reference.

Mr. Henry has good taste in music.

Mr. Conal Henry

I thank the Chairman. No alarms and no surprises is an important requirement between a CEO and management. I do not want to encounter something we did not expect to happen. There will be bad news. Things will start to develop, for better or worse, and we must manage them. I have selected and worked with management teams across a number of industries in the past. I am very impressed with what I see in Shannon and I do not mean that lightly; I really am. It is a very strong team.

The Senator asked about the marketing of the airport. We are conducting a review of our marketing activity and will always review it. I think we can do better but to be honest with him, policy is the issue here. The issue is route density. The airport is not used because there are not enough routes into it because all routes go to Dublin. We put a second runway into Dublin Airport when we should have thought about alternatives. A number of members of the committee will know I am a broadband guy. I said for a very long time that policy can make a difference with regard to broadband. Big policy changes can be delivered in that area, and we can discuss that on a different day. There is a way to do things through policy that can make a big difference. We need to think long about that. National aviation policy should not be rushed out. We should have an honest conversation about how we want our airport infrastructure to look in the long run.

What would Mr. Henry like to see in the national aviation plan?

Mr. Conal Henry

I would like to see more competition on the east coast and less competition on the west coast, if I am honest.

How would that be done?

Mr. Conal Henry

I do not know. I know that is not something the committee hears said very often.

I could play devil's advocate and say that more competition on the east coast would suggest we should build another airport or follow the famous Ryanair suggestion that we develop Baldonnel Airport. All of a sudden we would have even more airports.

Mr. Conal Henry

We need to create a competitive force to the east coast on the west coast. We need to use transportation links, route density and a whole bunch of-----

We are not a huge island.

Mr. Conal Henry

Exactly. We are going to have to be a little bit imaginative when we look at this. We are probably going to have to do things that might be politically hard to swallow. I do not have the answer but I think I can see the problem quite clearly.

We can all see the problem. There is an airport in Dublin that is creaking at the seams, as is evident every day in the footage coming out. There are more people in that airport than it can tolerate comfortably. At the same time, we have massive underused capacity in Shannon and probably also in Kerry and Knock.

The Senator could mention Cork as well.

I absolutely could. I am glad Senator Buttimer is still listening in. Donegal is a different kind of airport, as is acknowledged. The question is what Mr. Henry wants to see. We all know the problem. What does he think aviation policy needs to have in it? He is more of an expert than I am. What would he like to see in the policy?

Mr. Conal Henry

I am not a functional expert. I was in Ryanair but that was 15 or 17 years ago. I have worked in broadband since then so I am not an aviation expert. I am a corporate governance guy and that is what put me in this role. I am also from the mid-west. I do not have the here-and-now expertise in the aviation industry.

I am reading my way into the job, listening to what people like the committee members are telling me and trying to work out how this can be fixed because it seems to be very obvious what the problem is, but unless-----

I thank Mr. Henry for taking on the role. I wish him the very best with it. By all means, do not be a stranger. Let the committee know if there are problems. I want to hear about it as much as the people representing the mid-west, such as the Chair and Deputies Carey and Cathal Crowe, do. It does not make sense for us to build extra capacity and spend a fortune doing it at a time when we have airports with massive underutilised capacity. I wish Mr. Henry the very best in his role.

From Cork, I call Senator Buttimer.

First, I wish to express my absolute confidence in Mr. Henry as chair. Despite his very modest assertion that he is not an aviation expert, he brings a wealth of experience to the position and has demonstrated that today in his presentation.

We all come with competing interests in terms of Cork, Dublin and Shannon, but we should operate in the realm of policy change, as Mr. Henry said. He spoke about the issue of route patterns changing. How can we build route density? Part of the difficulty with airlines is that they vote by passenger loads and incentivisation to use an airport. Ultimately, because Dublin Airport is a hub destination and meeting point for the north, south, east and west, it is a place for people outside of the State to connect. It is a connectivity airport as well. How can capacity be built in the context of route density and route patterns changing? It is not just about Government aviation policy. It is about the policy of airlines. We have seen, in a post-pandemic context, Aer Lingus's policy towards short-haul connectivity. It has literally abandoned, to a great extent, its short-haul operations in Europe.

Mr. Conal Henry

On that last specific point, it is not something I would like to comment on. Airlines in Europe are almost entirely privately owned enterprises. They make decisions based on what they think will maximise their shareholder value in the short and long term. Aircraft, by definition, are moveable assets and are very easily moved. An airport is never at a point that it can fix it because it is always under threat of the removal of that capacity. As a result, we always have to stay on it.

Routes beget other routes, and the Senator said that in terms of Dublin Airport being a hub. The more routes there are in an airport, the more likely it is to get other routes. Each of the four western airports does not have enough routes to do that. There are European hub routes coming into Cork and US routes coming into Shannon. There are routes into London from Knock and routes into Germany from Kerry. Those four airports are watching and trying to steal business off each other, meanwhile most of the traffic is going to the east coast. There are enough passengers and demand for travel in the western half of Ireland to create a fairly significant aviation proposition. How do we do that? We will probably have to rethink the whole lot.

I agree. That is why, arising from our meeting in Shannon and, hopefully, from our meeting in Cork, we will see the importance of the points Mr. Henry made in his presentation and how advocating that all airports outside of Dublin remain in the regional airports programme is essential. The Shannon stopover was removed. The whole aviation policy has changed. IATA will tell us that there is pent-up demand. Mr. Henry is right in that it makes no sense - I am wearing my Cork hat for a second - for people from Portlaoise or Thurles who are travelling out of Ireland to go east. They should come to Cork or, in some cases, go west. As a committee, we need to sit down with the Government and the airports to rethink and re-imagine aviation policy. There are major issues in Dublin Airport as we have seen. We need to return to this and invite the DAA to come back before us. I commend Mr. Henry on his proactivity in respect of that matter. We supported him in that regard during the private meeting in the context of the whole strategy.

I will conclude by wishing Mr. Henry well. The day we were in Shannon, he demonstrated great ability. Today, he has done the same. I look forward to the transport committee having a strong influence, with the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Hildegarde Naughton, on aviation policy in the coming months

Does Mr. Henry wish to comment on anything?

Mr. Conal Henry

Not unless there are any specific asks.

In that case, where does Mr. Henry see the interaction between the two State airports outside of Dublin, namely, Shannon and Cork, going? What is the dynamic there?

Mr. Conal Henry

I do not have a view at the moment. It is something that needs to be considered. I am acutely aware that this brings us on to a very sensitive political pitch. As a Northerner, I am not given to sensitivity.

It is an issue that needs to be addressed, however.

Mr. Conal Henry

Exactly. I am just putting my business strategy head on. If we were a private business that had five factories and one of them produced 87% of our widgets and the other four produced 13%, we would re-evaluate our factory strategy. It is as simple as that.

I thank Mr. Henry for coming before the committee. A part of me wants to ask him questions about broadband, but we might leave that for another time. It might have been very useful during the Northern elections. When people brought up that issue, he could have been useful to me at that stage.

Mr. Conal Henry

The Deputy may be aware but my company in Northern Ireland was actually awarded Project Stratum.

That is it. You know what I mean.

I hope they are putting out plenty of fake news.

It is dreadful what you have to listen to.

Senator Craughwell, you will have to retract that. I take that as retracted-----

I immediately retract it.

-----unless you wish to get us all into an issue. Can we take that as retracted?

That is utterly dreadful. We might have to take disciplinary proceedings afterwards, but not at the moment.

Mr. Henry has stated that he is listening. We all get an understanding of the problem in that everyone would like to see a more distributed, dissipated - whatever term one wishes to use - a more logical, regional infrastructure as regards transport in general and, specifically, airlines. In speaking to DAA or anyone else on this, as was mentioned earlier, Dublin Airport is a hub. We are not competing with Shannon. The issue is that we are competing with Vienna, London, Paris and elsewhere. That is where the slots will go, and maybe that is easy from them to say. I am wondering how one bridges that gap where we can have this conversation. We can go round and round the gardens on this, which happens quite often. We can all do that from the point of view that it will sound okay, particularly to a local audience, but that it will never actually happen. How does one make it happen?

Mr. Conal Henry

I come back to my earlier point, which is that I did not come before the committee with a view on what policy should be. Coincidently, I came here today from Dublin Airport having flown from Vienna. I literally used both products today. In terms of passenger numbers, Vienna International Airport can handle 25 million and Dublin Airport can handle 33 million. They are quite comparable. The difference in product is immense. One of the reasons for that is because Bratislava Airport is 25 minutes from Vienna and acts as its competitor so they have to keep their noses clean. The likes of Ryanair can quite happily move that capacity out of Vienna and into Bratislava. They are competed with on a local level as well, as are most of those other airports. There is intranational and international competition for airports. Dublin Airport is competing in an international environment, but it is not competing intranationally.

I suppose it is about how one puts a co-operative setting together, whether it is competitive or co-operative. People have said that there may be logic in the context of certain routes as regards Shannon, but half the services that operate out of Dublin cannot suddenly move to the west coast. It would not make sense to do that.

I know Mr. Henry is not necessarily proposing that but what is doable?

Mr. Conal Henry

One gets the sense that the airport worries that its charges are too high because it is losing customers. If the airport charges in Shannon are too high, the customers will go to Cork but if the airport charges in Dublin are too high, they are still going to go to Dublin. Dublin's record is 33 million passengers, which is a serious number for a country of our size. That is a hell of an achievement but the product is challenged. The airport is at or ahead of capacity. That same flight I talked about was actually stacked and that was a first for me. Flights used to be stacked over Heathrow but my flight was actually stacked, flying up and down the coast. From an emissions point of view, it is not good when aircraft are waiting to land. That has never happened to me before.

How long were you waiting to land?

Mr. Conal Henry

It was probably 15 or 20 minutes. We were just flying up and down between Howth and Dún Laoghaire.

As I said earlier, policy bravery pays off. We did that with broadband and it will pay off. It is probably taking longer than it should but we did it on broadband and we should do it on aviation.

That is possibly not the analogy to use at the minute.

Mr. Conal Henry

I accept that.

Perhaps into the future it might be. I was at National Broadband Ireland's, NBI, offices this week and while a number of deadlines and targets have been missed, what the company is saying at the minute would make one somewhat more hopeful. I will be very glad when NBI can appear before this committee and state that it has met its targets.

Mr. Conal Henry

The only thing I would add is that I was in Vienna this week for a European fibre conference. Comparisons were made across various nations in terms of broadband connectivity and Ireland is shooting up the league table.

Yes, I have seen that-----

Mr. Conal Henry

That is a direct result of policy.

Mr. Henry is saying it is policy but he is also saying that this really needs to happen at a governmental level or it is not going to happen at all.

Mr. Conal Henry

No one ingredient makes the recipe. Aviation policy is complex. The marketing mix, the way we sell the airport, the charging environment and what we charge the airlines, the route development work that we do and the infrastructure that we have, are all part of the recipe. What I am saying to this committee today is that aviation policy is a significant reason the airport is not fulfilling its potential.

Mr. Henry is going to have a difficulty with getting all of those parts that are competitive operations of their own to co-operate. That can only happen if the piece at the top is right, if there is a plan-----

Mr. Conal Henry

If we do not fix our aviation policy, we are just going to continually have this meeting about Shannon Airport.

We have had this meeting on Shannon Airport over and over again. That is no disrespect to anyone; it is just what happens. That will continue until such point in time when somebody grasps it and puts an entire aviation plan in place across the board. Then there will be difficulties in dealing with individual stakeholders that have their own agendas because not everyone is as sound as me.

Senator Craughwell is next.

I always put it on the record when a chair-designate comes before us that I hate wasting his or her time because as a committee, we cannot say "No, the individual should not be employed." At the end of the day, it is a courtesy call really. That said, the engagement this afternoon has been really interesting.

My impression of Shannon Airport, the cohesiveness and dedication of the staff and the desire of the people we met on the ground down there to make this airport work and to challenge the 87% who are travelling east was remarkable. My experience of Shannon will live with me for a long time. I would happily sit into my car in July and drive to Shannon and fly from there to a holiday resort rather than face the bedlam I am going to have to face at Dublin Airport. It is a remarkable resource. I see Senator Buttimer looking at me and I am sure Cork Airport will prove to be equally as remarkable when we visit it.

Cork is remarkable.

I was in Galway at the weekend and I purchased the Connacht Tribune. When I opened it, a piece of marketing material about Shannon fell out. It gave me a little bit of confidence that somebody somewhere is doing something to try to drive the airport. I do not understand why there is not a bus route from the major population centres straight to Shannon Airport four or five times a day, even if it is loss making for the time being. At the end of the day, the old adage applies that if you build it, they will come. As far as I am concerned, a bus service would actually pay off. It would make the airport really viable. I have relations who fly over and back to Portugal and Spain. They have moved from Dublin to Shannon in recent times purely because of the ease of getting out of the airport. It is only a short hop down from Galway for them.

Mr. Henry has the team in place and he has the infrastructure within the airport itself. What he is lacking is policy and connectivity. Those are the two big issues right now. The Government must take a serious look at its transport policy. In the context of a greener, cleaner environment and reducing our carbon footprint it makes absolutely no sense to drive from the west to Dublin to fly out of the country.

I put up some social media posts after I visited Shannon complimenting the airport on my experience. The response was remarkable. I used all of the main social media platforms and a number of people were thankful that I was talking about the positives in Shannon. However, a certain number came back and called me a dozy so-and-so, asked why I did not see that one cannot get into the airport and pointed out that there are no buses or trains to Shannon. Not only that, they pointed out that the routes are limited and are only on certain days of the week.

If Mr. Henry is to be successful and if we are to measure his success at the end of his time, he must be provided with the mechanisms to drive success for the airport. That requires a serious shift in policy. Having appraised the situation, how close is Mr. Henry to coming up with policy shifts that he would like to see?

Mr. Conal Henry

I was asked by the Minister to take on the job eight weeks ago and I have been looking at it since then. This is not something we can magic out of fresh air. Frankly, it is not something I would do on my own. What I am doing is asking questions of myself and other stakeholders to see if we can have a dialogue on the art of the possible. The Senator mentioned the connectivity to Shannon, and the issue of route density is key. If there are not enough routes to feed the buses, there will not be any buses and if the buses do not come, there will not be enough routes. We have to break that cycle. That will happen but it is not trivial.

The Senator spoke about the great service that Shannon provides and said he has friends and family using it now. I urge all committee members to tell their friends. This is a small country and we can get the word out just by reminding people or urging them to use the airport once. Once they start using the airport, people tend to reuse it. Lots of frequent and regular travellers use it.

My first flight out of Shannon was in 1968. It was a comfortable place to visit then and is still a very comfortable place. I am not going to waste any more of Mr. Henry's time. I am very happy for him. I think the Minister has picked a good man for the job and I wish him the very best as he moves forward. I am sure my colleagues from County Clare will have lots more questions for him so I will give way now.

Thanks very much, Senator Craughwell. Senator Dooley is next.

I welcome Mr. Henry, whom I have known for some time. He has been before committees of these Houses previously and has a good understanding of the issues in the mid-west and the west generally.

He said that he is in there, having a look around and will be back in due course. What would be success for him? He is a man driven by success. He has been very successful in virtually everything he has been involved in over the years. How would he measure success in a year, two years or three years? Is his appointment for three years?

Mr. Conal Henry

I think it is for five years.

All the better.

Mr. Conal Henry

The committee is stuck with me for five years.

Mr. Henry will have longer than some of us will have here.

Mr. Conal Henry

My first success would be not to create any hostages to fortune, so I am not about to.

That is not a bad approach.

Mr. Conal Henry

The immediate focus is to try to build traffic back to pre-pandemic levels. We are making good progress in that. We need to reinvigorate the marketing of the airport and work is ongoing on that. We need to look at road and bus connectivity into the airport. Those are some short-term objectives. In the longer term we need to work with all the stakeholders to come up with an aviation policy that makes sense. I hope there will be one at the end of my five years. It is one of those things where people plant trees they will never sit under. The restructuring and this aviation policy will probably be a decade-long process. I would like to think that is something we can start. The Senator and I know each other from the broadband arena where we did it again.

We have not spoken about this. While have spoken about the threat to Shannon, there is a massive opportunity for Shannon in two areas. We have talked about the Shannon Estuary becoming the Aberdeen of offshore wind energy. That will require a co-ordinated approach from all the stakeholders. There is a real opportunity to do something very special there. A number of people are working on it and I can get quite excited about it.

There is also the change in aviation technology and the aviation usage patterns related to decarbonisation. Future Mobility Campus Ireland is located in Shannon. Shannon's heritage of being involved at the cutting edge is almost second to none. It has been at the cutting edge of every major aviation development since the advent of the aviation industry. As we move to non-jet transport, drone-based electricity stuff, hydrogen fuels and all these sorts of things, we need to ensure Shannon is at the centre of all that. It has great relationships with all the airlines, all the aircraft manufacturers and many of the leasing companies and, therefore, there is a way we can position ourselves to do that. I would be really excited and hope that by the end of my term that will be-----

That is really important. I thank Mr. Henry for that. I believe he has answered it correctly. Far too many people who have appeared before this committee in the past have talked about Shannon Group. Shannon Group has been used as a methodology of hiding the failure of the entire entity to increase passenger traffic. The whole thing is about aviation, but when Shannon Development was subsumed into the broader group, it was then started to be presented to us as a business and it was about profit and loss.

The Shannon Group did very well because it was created at a time there was a demand for property. The property assets were put in under the umbrella of the airport and it took off. They were given to the group for nothing, revalued, borrowed against and new buildings were built, which was all brilliant. There is no issue with property development in the mid-west. Any property developers given the Shannon Development asset would have made a success out of it. Well done to the people in the group who did it, but the difficulty was it masked the considerable decline of aviation traffic at a time passenger numbers through the country were growing exponentially and Shannon did not even get its fair slice of it. That is not to take away from the wonderful management in place. In my view it was a failure of strategic direction by the then board.

I am heartened that everything Mr. Henry has said here focuses on aviation and not the ancillary stuff. That is brilliant; that is really important. However, people do not need to come in here to get a slap on the back for something that is going well. It is about the challenge because aviation matters to the region. It matters to the small businesses in Kilrush, Kilkee, Mountshannon, Scariff and elsewhere. It matters for the small hospitality business that depends on three French tourists turning up today and four Americans tomorrow. It is about the coffee shop in Labasheeda, the glamping facility there and others. They depend on people passing.

Jaguar Land Rover is brilliant and creates great employment. However, Shannon exists to support passengers coming through the airport, people going on holidays and people coming here. If Mr. Henry sticks to that mantra, does not get lost in the profit and loss of the group, and challenges it every time it is presented to him that it is just about profit and loss, then he will have achieved success.

I compliment Mary Considine and her team. They went through a lot during the pandemic. She has done an amazing job. Mr. Henry has an amazing person beside him there. She has managed to handle it without strategic direction from a chairman for some time. Hats off to the people working on the ground. They are ready, willing and able if they get the strategic direction. Mr. Henry's challenge will be to take the board in a direction that goes back to focus on key air connectivity. His inbox will be filled with reports every day about which airport to go to. I will not get into that. He knows the key hubs in Europe that we need.

He needs to keep the focus on passengers through the airport, more airlines and more business for the region. He should not get caught up on the profit and loss account. I accept the company must be successful. However, it has a significant property asset, which it got for nothing. I know there are cross-compliance issues there. He can come back with that as a policy request if that is what it is because that was put into a document at a later stage. It could have been excluded and maybe it can be done now. I wish Mr. Henry the best of luck and continued success.

Mr. Conal Henry

I endorse the Senator's view of the management team. I believe we have a very strong management team in place. I am not committing to fix the passenger number issue in Shannon Airport. That is an issue that is beyond my personal level of competence. It will require everybody to work together to do that. I am committing my best endeavours to do whatever I can personally. However, unless we all pull together and make the right policy interventions, we will continue to have this type of meeting.

We will work with Mr. Henry on that. I am not asking him to commit to anything. However, I do not want to hear on Clare FM some morning or read a national press release with another line of slurry about how great the group is doing because there is-----

Mr. Conal Henry

I must defend the group there. Regarding the property assets, the Shannon Group exists in a mutually supportive way to generate value for the users of the airport, value for the airport and a hinterland for the airport. It works really well.

That can be spun out. If a policy decision must be taken to spin out the property aspect and allow it be privatised, that is fine. Mr. Henry should not lose sight of this and he should not take the Kool-Aid that he may be presented with in certain quarters of society. The only thing that matters to the people who vote for Deputies McNamara, Carey, Cathal Crowe, me and whoever else is a demand to see the airport achieve what it can achieve. I know some people believe Shannon can go back to the halcyon days, but it cannot. Mr. Henry needs to be honest with people and come out and have that discussion. He needs to say what Shannon can and cannot be. However, he should not present us with success because another company has decided to locate there. IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland will take credit for that. Brian O'Connell up on the hill would take credit for it and what he does in a wonderful facility. Mr. Henry must not fall into the property asset component.

Mr. Conal Henry

I will not. The Senator knows me. We built a privately funded business up North and we built that with a purpose, not just to generate profit. It is a business of purpose. I am in the business of building businesses of purpose. The purpose of Shannon Group is to regenerate and be the heartbeat of the economic mid-west. The most important part of that is to bring people into and out of the region.

Through the airport.

Mr. Conal Henry

We will never lose sight of that.

While I am not asking Mr. Henry to comment, in my view sight was lost. Figures were presented to this committee and to the public about how great the group was doing. It was just being presented as a block and an entity. Of course, employment came to the region because Shannon Group built factories. However, that was because IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland went after them. That is where the credit goes in that regard. We were getting a rehash of that about how great things were going. Anyway, we will not go back there. Let us be positive. Let us learn from that mistake. As was always the case, Mr. Henry will have a friend here in supporting the initiative. I am motivated by the region that I have had the privilege to represent.

I am motivated by driving activity through the airport. The rest of the business is self-sustaining, based on the way it was constructed from the start. What has deteriorated, sadly, is a focus on driving more business through the airport. It is not easy, to be honest, if passenger numbers drop. There was some good work done. Reaching out to Norwegian Air did not happen. Other things have fallen through the cracks and that needs to be addressed. Mr. Henry need to get his head around that and understand. Mary Considine and others will know what is needed. We will not be found wanting as a group of Oireachtas Members. Through Deputy Carey we have ongoing engagement with management and the board and we will continue that. When Mr. Henry has figured out what he wants, he should come calling. We will not be afraid to challenge our party leaders, Ministers and so on. Until we know what he wants in order to assist in the growth of that connectivity, less is more. We do not want to overplay the profit and loss piece.

We have finished with the committee members. I will go to Deputy McNamara in a moment. It is a five-year term, which I welcome. The role of a board is to make strategic decisions about the way the group evolves, which are then implemented by management. Management does a very good job on that. We have to be honest here. There would be a perception that over the last number of years, pre pandemic, the property side of the Shannon Group had become the main focus, as distinct from aviation. That is just the perception and we have to be honest about that. The group was there to ensure the airport could function as an independent body. That is the missing ingredient. Mr. Henry spoke about being a driver of the region and the group. The airport is a significant key driver for the entire western region. I have a few quick questions. Everyone is coming to the consensus that an urgent review needs to be commenced on the national aviation strategy, not only for Shannon Airport but for the likes of Cork Airport and other airports. As incoming chair of the Shannon Group, I ask Mr. Henry to go through what he believes are the short, medium and long-term challenges facing the airport. What policy initiatives does he see the board taking with regard to linking with Galway, Limerick and even Cork over that period? What are the challenges and opportunities for the airport to grow? From a strategic viewpoint there would have been a view that the group was very successful on property. Mr. Henry said it himself. Over the last number of years Dublin Airport increased its share of the market by 12% to 13% while Shannon and Cork's fell back by the same amount. Those are the facts. I ask Mr. Henry for an overview on that.

Mr. Conal Henry

It would not be my view that when I walked into the Shannon Group there was an undue focus on property and a lack of focus on-----

That would be the perception.

Mr. Conal Henry

Sometimes you can never-----

We are talking about an honest dialogue. We need to understand.

Mr. Conal Henry

That would not have been my perception. I would have gone in and said they had lost sight of the knitting but that is not what is going on. The members of the management team are aviation people. They understand the aviation business.

I think the point Senator Dooley was making was about the strategic direction from the board. He was not in any way making any comment on management. They implement the strategic direction as set out by the board. That is the role of a board.

Mr. Conal Henry

I am absolutely clear that the only way the Shannon Group will succeed is if the airport succeeds. The property portfolio is very supportive and the structure of the group works well. It is not something-----

We accept that.

Mr. Conal Henry

I mentioned to Senator Dooley that in the short term the immediate focus is on bringing those passenger numbers back up towards, if not beyond, the levels they were at pre pandemic. The ongoing, consistent and never-ending focus is on driving passenger numbers. That never stops. That is a piece of activity-----

When does Mr. Henry see us getting back to the pre-pandemic figure of 1.7 million?

Mr. Conal Henry

I am not going to give a date on that but I am confident it will happen at some point.

Are we talking within the next two years?

Mr. Conal Henry

I am not going to give a date. It is a very strong aviation product. The airport has good relationships with the airlines and the airlines seem to like using the airport.

Mr. Henry believes that can be done within the existing national aviation policy.

Mr. Conal Henry

I think so. I hope so. It is a bit of a hope. We are trading into a fungible market and the level of control we have over passenger numbers is not what people think. Decisions can be quite peremptory in airlines. They can be made for reasons completely outside our control and they can have a massive impact on numbers.

The routes that were there pre-pandemic are back, in the main.

Mr. Conal Henry

I am not sure. We will see what the route configurations are. The recent announcement of an investment in Hangar 5 by Ryanair is a huge endorsement of how the industry feels about the airport as a service. On the perception issue, maybe the need for change is around how we have made people perceive us rather than what we have been doing. Senator Dooley knows I am a good man for creating perceptions. We will drive towards all the issues we need to address that we can control. There is nothing the management team is not working on in terms of the stuff the committee has identified. There is a focus there.

Shannon needs to link up with Cork, Galway and Limerick with a bus service. There is also the matter of establishing European hub connectivity, which is in the Copenhagen report. How important is that to Shannon? How realistic is it to get to that point? There is a Brexit adjustment fund available and we have had discussions about applying for that fund. I ask Mr. Henry to deal with that. It comes up in a lot of discussions.

Mr. Conal Henry

It is an example of the issue we are facing in terms of policy. There is a European hub connection.

Through Heathrow.

Mr. Conal Henry

No, through Cork Airport. There are two Amsterdam routes out of Cork and there is no US route out of Cork. Cork is looking at Shannon and wishing for US connectivity while Shannon is looking at Cork wishing for European connectivity. Meanwhile, there is little competition provided through the other airports. I am sue that upsets people and creates poltiical problems but that encapsulates the issue. The four airports on the western seaboard are all competing with each other and that removes the competition for the airport on the eastern seaboard.

Specifically on putting a European hub into Shannon, we are working hard on that but these decisions are made in a fairly unpredictable manner within airlines. The committee will have heard from my opening statement that I was involved with this a million years ago when I worked in Ryanair so I have some insight into the matter. With the way those decisions are made, we can do our best but even our best might not be good enough. The decisions are made with regard to a bunch of other factors that are outside our control. What we have to do is go in, deeply understand what each of the airlines is looking for, deeply understand how we can provide for those airline requirements and be in constant contact with the airlines. As I understand our route development work, that is exactly what is going on.

It is an active policy function and policy objective and is being actively worked on by Shannon Airport board and management.

Mr. Conal Henry

That is 100%. We cannot promise success. We can only control the controllables.

Great. Our only interest is the region. I am based in Limerick city so I know how important Shannon Airport is. We are all working in the same field. Before I conclude, I will address a more local issue.

I wish Mr. Henry well. He has our full support. We will be writing to the Minister to let him know we met with Mr. Henry. How realistic does he believe it is to have a rail link between Shannon Airport and Limerick city?

Mr. Conal Henry

I have a personal view based on very little expertise in rail policy. We need to do with railways what we did with motorways during the Celtic tiger period. We need to throw the big shot and build a national fast-rail infrastructure across all 32 counties. We also need to pick up Limerick. Limerick and Shannon in particular are underserved by our railway network. I have spent 12 years coming down to Limerick from Dublin. I hope to never have to go through Limerick Junction again. It just does not really work, particularly if you are coming from Dublin because it is the early morning. Railways are one of those things that need to be done in the round and as a big policy. I know there is a national rail review. I strongly recommend that, regardless of what comes out of it, Shannon and Limerick should be at the centre of that network. I believe they would be. Those of us who have travelled all around Europe will know that there are wonderful rail links in Italy. Everyone thinks of Italy as a slightly dysfunctional economy but you can go from Venice to Rome in a day. It is something we need to do in Ireland. That would be central to rebalancing passenger movement in airports.

As a Deputy for Clare, I congratulate Mr. Henry on his imminent appointment and on his nomination. I wish him every success in what is a very important role for Clare. I was interested in his comments on the role of a chair, which suggested that it was to gently touch the tiller to make sure the plan is implemented. What is the role of the board and the chair in developing the plan?

Mr. Conal Henry

The board has to be central to the plan. The board should be involved in developing and reviewing the plan.

What about the chair?

Mr. Conal Henry

The chair works with the board and basically arbitrates between management and the board, if that makes sense.

It does. In that regard, I was not clear with respect to what the Chair said about connectivity to a hub. Mr. Henry's predecessor said that he was not supported in his vision to bring about greater connectivity to a hub. I am not asking Mr. Henry to comment on that at all.

The Deputy mentioned hubs. Is that European hubs?

Yes, absolutely. Schiphol is the obvious one but there are others in Europe. I am not asking Mr. Henry to comment on whether his predecessor was supported but does he believe that is an essential part of the plan?

Mr. Conal Henry

What the plan will and does say is that we should be pulling out all of the stops to try to achieve that. It does not say that we definitely will achieve it. That is not what it says and that is a point I want to make.

I have heard that, yes.

Mr. Conal Henry

I am confident. One of the jobs of the board is to regularly check in to ensure the work needed to do that is still going on. Even when you have won it, you have to work just as hard to keep it because these are mobile assets. It is never-ending work. It is probably not even in the plan to work hard to develop this because it is such a core part of the job that it goes without saying.

What does Mr. Henry regard as the hinterland of Shannon? What should a plan contain with regard to promoting Shannon within its hinterland? You can sometimes forget what is in your own area. I live near Holy Island. It is a very beautiful place. Senator Dooley also lives near it. I do not know about him but I sometimes forget it is there. You do not go out there or do not go back for a number of years but, when you do, you think it is a really nice place. You can forget about something that you look at almost every day. What is Shannon's hinterland and what needs to be done to create a greater awareness of Shannon in that hinterland?

Mr. Conal Henry

I am not an aviation economist so any answer I give will be my own back-of-the-fag-packet view. The hinterland today is probably Munster and a little bit of the Offaly side of Leinster. It probably starts running out around Charleville to the south. We could be better at attracting people from Galway. I sometimes think Galway is too close to Dublin. It should be anyone outside of the M50 south of the M5. The whole southern half of the State should be using Shannon if we could get the connectivity right. Perhaps that is a pipe dream but we do not seek to achieve it just because it would be great craic to make Shannon a better airport but because it would deliver a better aviation and tourism policy for the State and the 32 counties of Ireland.

I am very encouraged by that and particularly by Mr. Henry's mention of Galway because Galway is one of those destinations for people who want to go somewhere for a weekend and who do not want to spend three hours on a bus or a train. Shannon is more or less an hour away from Galway. This allows for synergies between the two. Obviously, Limerick is a weekend destination too but it perhaps marketed more as a destination for sporting occasions such as rugby weekends and other sports events.

On the mobility of assets Mr. Henry discussed - he may not have the answer to this question and, if he does not, that is fine - there was a difference in aviation policy between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland during the pandemic. This resulted in a lot of Ryanair flights starting from Belfast. I appreciate that Mr. Henry may not know the answer but does he know whether Belfast has managed to retain much of that business?

Mr. Conal Henry

Despite my accent, I actually do not. I do not think I have every flown out of Belfast with Ryanair although I am a big user of Ryanair out of Dublin and Shannon, in case anybody is listening. I do not know the answer but I could check. I genuinely just do not know.

The reason I am asking is the difficulties in Dublin, which are not unique to Dublin. Manchester has its own difficulties. The CEO at that airport fell on his sword as a result. Other big airports in the UK are also having difficulties with security. They are well documented in Dublin. These issues and the lengths of queues present an opportunity for Shannon in the very short term. I am intrigued by the extent to which Belfast has managed to hold on to any additional business that went its way during the pandemic. Those are my questions. I will not delay Mr. Henry any further. I congratulate him again and wish him the very best of luck in his tenure at Shannon Airport and in the Shannon Group more broadly. I am glad to hear that he views Shannon Airport as the key asset of the Shannon Group.

I have one quick question. The passenger numbers at Shannon and Cork did not actually go down but went up over the period. The numbers at Dublin went up exponentially, however. Mr. Henry has a background in aviation. It is not a question of passenger numbers at Shannon not increasing because they did. However, they did not increase exponentially. I believe it is the same case for Cork Airport. I am working from memory but I believe I am not too far wrong. Despite this, the numbers at Dublin increased exponentially. Why is that?

Mr. Conal Henry

Again, I do not want the committee to overestimate my actual expertise at this level. I did work in aviation but that was 20 years ago. What we are seeing is something I call route density. When IAG acquired Aer Lingus, it started trying to reroute traffic away from Heathrow and into Dublin. That has driven a lot of passengers there. That is doable at Shannon. There is no reason it could not be done at Shannon if you had the right level of route density. If a passenger booking a flight from Newcastle or Bristol to JFK, who would currently go through Dublin, went through Shannon-----

Is that not about engaging with the airlines?

Mr. Conal Henry

It is about this route density issue. You are not going to do that with transiting passengers alone.

It is a question of critical mass.

Mr. Conal Henry

You need point-to-point passengers and all of that sort of stuff as well. It is complicated. Of course, if you get those passengers, the bus routes show up and it all starts to work.

Does Mr. Henry believe at this stage that Shannon can do it on its own? Will it require, as has happened in Holland, some method of looking at a more strategic distribution of passengers across the island? I refer, in particular, to our own jurisdiction, but it would probably involve all of the island. Is that what we are looking at? Can Shannon do it on its own?

Mr. Conal Henry

It is unquestionable that it cannot.

Although I only invented the phrase during this engagement, I have said we will continue to have this meeting. We will work really hard on developing new routes and on refining the marketing. We will manage that business as well as we can. There will be ups and downs. Sometimes, we will do a really good job but-----

Does Mr. Henry believe that, in the absence of a national aviation policy, there is a ceiling or limit?

Mr. Conal Henry

I am not promising that will get fixed. In fact, I am concerned that it will not.

What will not get fixed?

Mr. Conal Henry

I am concerned that a national aviation policy will not rebalance aviation. We missed a trick when we let a second runway be built up here.

Are we saying this expansion cannot happen in Shannon Airport unless there is a national aviation policy?

Mr. Conal Henry

I am the incoming chair and I am not an expert, but that is my view in the here and now.

We will assist Mr. Henry and call for an urgent review. We will take the matter up with the Ministers. It is something we are collectively committed to, as a committee. I will call on the other non-member who wished to speak, Senator Conway.

I wish Mr. Henry well in his new appointment. I tuned into some of the engagements with colleagues today and I was very impressed with Mr. Henry's knowledge and commitment in taking on this role, which is not easy. There has been a turbulent period in terms of the last couple of nominees for chair. I refer particularly to the last man, who was not in a position to continue. I am delighted and wish Mr. Henry well. He has engaged and has covered quite an amount in this meeting. I suggest that we have a further engagement six or 12 months into Mr. Henry's term in office. The committee met in Shannon with Deputy Carey and others last week. I believe a progress report to the committee would be worthwhile. I presume Mr. Henry would be willing to provide one.

Mr. Conal Henry

The State is the shareholder. We report to the State.

As a committee, we have ongoing engagement with the airports. That is a natural feature. That will happen as a matter of course.

Mr. Conal Henry

Absolutely.

Absolutely. I wish Mr. Henry well.

Mr. Conal Henry

In the end, the only hard promise I can make is that I will commit to giving this my best shot. With regard to outcomes, there is a lot of stuff that is not within our control.

We have reached that critical point where we need to look at national aviation policy and have an honest and open discussion. It should not be rushed but it needs to be put in place. It will not happen overnight. If, as the board collectively looks at this issue under Mr. Henry's leadership over time, it comes to believe a specific policy is required once the review gets under way, I hope he will engage with us as a committee so that we can assist in ensuring we have an overall national aviation strategy that drives passenger numbers up exponentially for Ireland Inc., benefiting the airports at Shannon, Cork, Kerry and Knock. I thank Mr. Henry for attending today's meeting and engaging with members. We will now write to the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, to say that we have met with him. We wish him well in his tenure and look forward to working with him collectively as a committee. Bon voyage.

The meeting is now adjourned. The next meeting of the joint committee will be a private session on MS Teams tomorrow, Thursday, 26 May, at 2 p.m. when we will consider the communications Bill. The next meeting in public session is on Wednesday, 1 June, at 1.30 p.m. with the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.23 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 1 June 2022.
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