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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Jun 2022

Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy 2022-2042: National Transport Authority

The purpose of the meeting is for the joint committee to discuss the draft transportation strategy for the greater Dublin area. It is the final draft for 2022 to 2042. In accordance with the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008, the National Transport Authority, NTA, recently forwarded a draft strategy to committee for consideration. I am very pleased to welcome, on behalf of the committee, Ms Anne Graham, CEO, and her colleague, Mr. Hugh Creegan, deputy CEO, NTA. I thank them for coming in at an unusual time. Nevertheless, the time does not make it any less important.

I must read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that they be physically present in the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not able to meet this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be reluctantly asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member participating using Microsoft Teams to confirm that he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making his or her contribution. Members attending in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I invite Ms Graham to make her opening statement.

Ms Anne Graham

I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the invitation to attend. I understand that the committee wishes to focus upon the Draft Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area 2022-2042, which I will refer to as the draft transport strategy. To assist me in dealing with members' subsequent questions, I am joined by Mr. Hugh Creegan, deputy chief executive with the NTA. As the committee will be aware, the NTA published the draft transport strategy for public review and feedback in November of last year, with the period for submissions running until 10 January last. The NTA received 1,020 submissions in response to this consultation process.

The main issues raised, in no particular order, were as follows: ambition and delivery timelines; public consultation and engagement; details of the cycle network plan; fare structure on commuter rail services; Navan rail line and the Dunsany rewilding project; MetroLink and Charlemont station; metro to south-west Dublin; BusConnects network and core bus corridors; details of the DART+ project; delivery of DART+ tunnel; extension of DART+ services to commuter towns; new rail stations; accessibility and catering for disabled people; safety and security of the transport system; equality in transport; and enforcement of traffic laws. Beyond these 16 main issues, which covered the vast majority of representations made, there were a large number of other matters raised across the spectrum of transport and planning themes.

All the submissions were carefully reviewed and considered. Arising from this process a number of changes have been made to the draft transport strategy. While a considerable number of amendments have been incorporated, many of these are minor in nature and, overall, the amendments have not altered the fundamental features of the transport strategy. It is also worth noting that a considerable number of the submissions raised items that are more appropriately dealt with at the project development level, rather than at the strategy level. Many of the changes which have been made are in the nature of clarifications, making clearer the intent of the particular measure proposed. In other cases additional measures have been added, such as requiring sustainable transport to be a critical consideration in the site selection process for new schools.

Various additions and changes have been made to the cycle network proposals, informed by issues identified in submissions. Other sections of the draft transport strategy were expanded to take account of feedback received, such as the section on equality in transport which has received further elaboration. The draft transport strategy was also updated to take account of additional transport policies, such as the national sustainable mobility policy which was published earlier this year. In addition, an explicit provision has been included requiring the NTA to prepare and publish a demand management scheme in accordance with the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008, within two years of the adoption of the strategy, to ensure the achievement of the transport emissions target for 2030. In accordance with the relevant legislation, the draft transport strategy has been now been forwarded to the Minister for Transport for his consideration and determination. We look forward to the outcome of the process and the subsequent progression of the various proposals set out in the draft transport strategy.

That concludes my introductory statement. I trust that I can answer any queries that arise.

Thank you, Ms Graham. I will now call on members. The order we have is that members who are present in the committee room will be called in the sequential order we have picked, non-members who are substituting for members are next and then other non-members. First is Deputy Matthews, who has ten minutes. However, I will be quite liberal with the timing.

The point of this meeting is that the committee has assessed the draft strategy and from this meeting we can make our recommendations or observations to the Minister before he approves the final plan. That is my understanding, and my questions will all relate to the document provided to us. I thank Ms Graham and Mr. Creegan for attending the meeting. They have always been very generous with their time to members and we appreciate that.

I will move to the document that was presented to us. The first item I wish to raise is the timelines for projects. Depending on the answer we could make a recommendation to the Minister. We need very clear and consistent timelines for transport projects. When the draft strategy was produced there was some confusion and I believe a press release was issued by the NTA clarifying the greater Dublin area, GDA, strategy proposals. The public and public representatives expect to have clear and realistic timelines for projects. We have fallen foul of unrealistic timelines in the past. As well as realistic and clear timelines, there are the different stages within the timelines for the delivery of a project. For example, where there is a project to be completed by 2040 or 2030, what has to be set out is what the different stages would likely be, such as design, planning, compulsory purchase order, CPO, processes and so forth, so we have a clear breakdown of the different stages within a timeline, the reasons those timelines exist and the rationale behind apportioning two years for planning or two years for design or whatever it may be. Also, I suggest that a document such as this should suggest ways in which those timelines may be reduced, for example, parallel processes within a project.

There is a section which commits to decide and provide. It is an improvement on the predict and provide model. We often look at these projects and say that when we have reached saturation point, for example, on buses, then we will update the rail system, knowing full well that people prefer to travel by rail. If we went with the decide and provide method, we would probably decide that we are going to put in rail before we wait to exhaust the current transport proposals that are in place. It is a build-it-and-they-will-come scenario. I realise the NTA has to support its decisions with evidence and research and that it is public money and must go through a public spending process, but we know from many projects that when it gets built, it gets used and that the use might not be completely apparent or obvious when one builds it. The Phoenix Park tunnel link, for example, reached very high capacity, much higher than we expected. Even on the western rail corridor the numbers just shot up. I would like Ms Graham to comment on the decide and provide aspect because the NTA seems to commit to that, but then it seems to rely on the predict and provide methodology.

The climate emissions target in it is set for 2042. We raised this previously when the draft strategy was in place. I am sorry, Chairman, these may not necessarily be questions, but they are points that I would like to have recorded that we could pass to the Minister. This target is set for 2042. It sets out the emissions from transport in the GDA to be below one 1 megatonne equivalent of CO2 by 2042. However, we do not have information on what emissions reductions would be achieved by 2030, which is a Government marker in time when we want a 51% reduction in emissions. That is not clear to me in this. In addition, it does not set out clear scenarios. We will have to cut emissions by 51% across all sectors. There are a number of ways of doing that, whatever way one is going to slice the sectoral pie or within those sectors themselves. What would be helpful would be the scenarios that we could suggest or choose to give a 51% reduction in emissions by 2030, and to design a range of options. Those who decide what options to go with can choose from those options. Regardless of what suite of measures they may choose in terms of public transport, active transport, demand management or whatever it might be, they could rely on the fact that they can choose the right range of options. It is much like what one does in energy retrofit of a home. One is given a range of options which will give the energy cut. That is what we need to do in terms of emissions.

Regarding how the DTA assesses a project, that is, the way the DTA calculates a project, assesses whether it is going to be successful or deliverable or whether it should invest in it, it appears to focus a lot on time-based savings. In other words, somebody takes a car journey and the journey takes the person 30 or 40 minutes whereas the alternative might be a ten-minute walk and a 30-minute, 35-minute or 40-minute bus service. Then, through BusConnects or other improvements, that bus service becomes more reliable with a faster journey time, and measures we might put in place, such as with BusConnects in Dublin, where we might restrict or reduce car accessibility through an area, the car journey time becomes less favourable and the bus and walking time remains consistent. Does the NTA assess projects on the basis of the cumulative impact of measures that we take?

There is a section on page 172 on roads. It suggests a link road, the M3 to the M4, parallel to the M50 - I think it is the M50 over-bridge at Liffey Valley - as a parallel or alternative route to cater for accidents or blockages on the M50.

It is my understanding that the link road was removed from the county development plans of both local authorities but the NTA has still included it in this draft strategy. Why is that the case? I know the reasoning for it but I believe it was removed from both county development plans, although I may be corrected on that point. The proposed road goes through some sensitive areas, which is concerning. Would that road only be used in the event the M50 was blocked? What stops us from inducing demand onto that road if we provide it? In taking traffic from the M50, that road could become just as full and busy as other roads.

Part of the text of the strategy relates to home zones. I cannot find the relevant notes but from memory, the draft strategy refers to the vulnerability of users, including children walking to school, cyclists and pedestrians. The text of the 2021 draft states, "A Home Zone is [a] street or group of streets designed to meet the needs of pedestrians, cyclists, children and residents and where the dominance of the car is reduced." It is stated on page 181 of the final draft that a home zone is a street or group of streets designed to balance the needs of pedestrians, cyclists and children with those of motorists. That is a retrograde definition. I prefer the text in the 2021 draft and suggest we keep that definition of home zones.

The section on school site selection was also amended. The 2021 draft included stronger wording. It stated, "In the site selection process for new schools sustainable transport shall be a critical consideration." I do not need to read it out; our guests are familiar with the text. What was produced in the later document is weaker. I suggest we keep the original drafting of the school site selection definition for school placement.

On the freight section, is there mention of how we would support rail freight connection in Dublin and the conflict that arose in Dublin Port last year when rail freight seemed to be sidelined? Has that been analysed sufficiently? What is required in Dublin Port to maintain rail freight connectivity? I will return to the issue of freight. Will I have a chance to come back in?

I suggest we go with initial slots of ten minutes. Members can then take it as a guarantee that we will come back to them. Rather than 20-minute slots, we will initially stick to ten to allow everyone the chance to come in at an early stage.

Does the Deputy want Ms Graham and Mr. Creegan to deal with those questions now?

We can deal with it all afterwards.

That would probably be more productive.

I will come back in during the second round.

Are members and non-members happy enough with that approach? It will keep things flowing. The next committee member is Deputy O'Rourke.

I thank our guests. I wish to touch on a number of points. I will emphasise the point that there were approximately 4,000 submissions, 2,000 of which came from County Meath. There are issues which include Navan rail. Will our guests give the committee an update on Navan rail, where it stands and what the next steps will be?

I am conscious that a number of the submissions related to the Dunsany rewilding project and concerns about route selection. I am very concerned that no matter what decision is made in that regard, we will end up in a planning quagmire. Where are we in that regard? What will be the next steps? How will issues such as route selection that are related or unrelated to the Dunsany rewilding project be handled?

I think Deputy O'Rourke would like a bit of interaction from our guests.

Ms Anne Graham

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Creegan, to respond.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

The Navan rail line is in the strategy at this stage but we are not at the stage of moving on it. If the strategy is adopted, the intention is to at least start the planning process for the project. I believe there is sufficient money in the capital programme we have been allocated to at least start the planning side of the project. There will be challenges later to figure out the implementation side.

How much is allocated?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

Nothing is allocated yet. I am saying there should be sufficient funding available-----

There should be sufficient funding.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

-----to be able to start the planning process on the Navan rail line. Irish Rail will have to balance this against all the other projects and free up resources to get started on it.

Talk me through that process. We have had our consultation and the project is now in the draft document. This is to be adopted. What decision-making gate does the project go through? If my interest is to try to support this to move as quickly as possible, what are the next steps? Does the NTA make a decision? Does Irish Rail? Does it fall to the Department or the Minister? How will it move from the draft to making its way through the planning process, however long that may take?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

On the basis that the planning side of it is included in the national development plan, it falls to us to see can it be fitted within the funding we have available. I think we have the money to get the process started. Discussions will probably take place between us and Irish Rail to see if we can give it an allocation next year to start the project then.

When will that decision be made?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

At year end. It will probably happen in December or January.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

The Deputy also asked about the rewilding of Dunsany. That is at the level of the project itself. The project has to go through a route selection process. All we have done is to take a high level at this stage. We have done a piece of work on it. More granular detail now needs to be developed. There will, I am sure, be a couple of options on the table. There will be a consultation and out of that we will select the preferred route. We will also be live to the issue the Deputy mentioned. We do not want to be caught in legal challenges for years to come.

That is welcome. I am seeking a short update on another big issue. I note that a Fine Gael parliamentary party meeting supported a proposition for fare parity between Balbriggan, Gormanston, Laytown and Drogheda. Where are we in that regard, particularly in the context of the broader fare review on which I am keeping a close eye?

Was that on the Fine Gael parliamentary party-----

I heard it reported on LMFM. That is what we go for.

Ms Anne Graham

We have responded to a number of parliamentary questions on this issue. We are undertaking a comprehensive review of fares on our regional bus services and our regional rail services. We have spoken many times about the problem where the short-hop zone goes into the intercity rail fares. There is too big a jump and it is not as fair a structure as we would like. Work is ongoing to see can we smooth that out and provide a more balanced and fairer move between the short-hop zone and the intercity fares and avoid a jump in price at those boundaries. That work is still ongoing. It is quite a complicated piece of work. We want to be in a position to put forward what is required to be done by the end of the year so that can go into the budgetary discussions because, obviously, an increased public service obligation, PSO, could be required to implement that. That is where we are on those.

I will move on to the issue of taxis, the late-night economy and public transport availability during the night, particularly at weekends but also more generally. I saw the NTA respond to some of those issues on RTÉ's "Prime Time" last week. There are a couple of specific issues I wish to raise. The NTA has done this review of maximum fares, which will kick in during August. Ms Graham indicated that there will be a recruitment campaign. However, I hear very clearly from those in the taxi industry that there are issues related to the ten-year rule and the number of vehicles, more than 5,000, that will be off the road at the end of the year. The transferability of plates and how it is impacting people who might be eager to transfer their licences is also an issue. Is the NTA looking at either of those areas? Will Ms Graham speak to those points?

Public transport providers are eager to take on additional 24-7 routes. Does the NTA have any immediate plans in that regard? Parts of the BusConnects plan involve 24-7 routes. Can these be expedited?

Ms Anne Graham

On the question of the age of vehicles, as the Deputy will know, in light of emergency Covid-19 restrictions, we made allowances for vehicles older than normally allowed under the regulations to operate. This was an attempt to protect and retain as many drivers and vehicles within the industry as possible. We still need to focus on maintaining the fleet operating in the market in good condition to ensure quality, however. That is something we continue to do. We do not believe that there are significant barriers to entering the small public service vehicle, SPSV, market in Ireland, particularly for the last two decades. There is no cap on the number of SPSV drivers or the number of licences issued. Any person or vehicle meeting the prescribed criteria, which we believe are reasonable, may be licensed to provide SPSV services.

In 2011, there was a widespread Government and stakeholder review of the taxi industry. That was at the height of the recession. Even then, the maximum age limits for vehicles were considered in depth and subject to full public consultation. In that same year, given the importance of the matter to the industry, we carried out a separate public consultation on vehicle standards with an emphasis on the question of maximum age limits, which was included in the overall review. The review found that the vehicle age limit for standard taxis and hackneys should be less than ten years and that the limit for wheelchair-accessible vehicles, WAVs, should be less than 15. This means that, when a standard taxi or hackney reaches its tenth birthday, it must be replaced with a younger vehicle. However, this replacement does not have to be brand new. Most vehicle licence holders tend to choose a replacement vehicle that is three to five years old. Data from before the pandemic show that 51% of SPSVs were to be five years old or younger at the end of 2021. This proportion has fallen to 35%.

With regard to international comparators, the age limits that apply to SPSVs in different jurisdictions vary but Ireland is on the end of the scale that allows for older vehicles. In the UK, local authorities usually apply either an age limit or an emissions standard. This age limit rarely exceeds ten years for saloon vehicles. Where emissions standards apply, diesel vehicles usually must meet or exceed the Euro 6 standard while petrol vehicles must meet or exceed the Euro 4 standard. In most regions in continental Europe, age limits lower than ten years apply. A limit of seven years is common in France and Belgium. We therefore think it is reasonable to ask the industry to return to a limit of ten years on the age of vehicles.

The taxi industry has always raised the issue of transferability. It is possible to identify a family member to whom a vehicle licence can be transferred on the death of the holder. We are not looking at any other transferability measures at this time.

On public transport, we have always wanted to extend public transport services, particularly in our cities, and to offer a 24-hour service, seven days a week, across key routes in the city. As part of the roll-out of BusConnects, we have put a number of such services in place. Even in advance of this roll-out, we had a number of 24-hour services in operation. These have proven to be very popular. We want to extend those as much as possible but whether we can make those increases and alleviate the problems customers and the people of Dublin and our other cities are experiencing at peak times, that is, the two hours on Friday and Saturday night when demand is at its highest, will come down to driver resource availability and funding.

I will come in again later but for now I will finish on these points on the ten-year rule. In my opinion, 2011 was a different time. Vehicles will still have to be tested for suitability and their standard maintained. Many of these vehicles have been off the road for an extended period because of the Covid pandemic. The price of second-hand vehicles in 2022 is very different from what it was in 2011. The availability of electric vehicles at this time is also an issue. We know there are supply chain issues. There is a strong argument to be made for an extension. This would help us in our transition to an electric fleet. I will leave that with Ms Graham although I may come in again.

We will now move to non-members and those substituting for members. Deputy Lahart is substituting for Deputy Cathal Crowe. He has ten minutes.

I ask the Chairman to signal when there is two minutes left. I am always happy to meet with representatives of the NTA. I thank them for their public service. I want to raise a number of issues. I raised one of these with the deputy chief executive outside. We are going to follow up on that. It related to buses in the constituency. I thank him for his commitment on that. I will leave the question of BusConnects and additional routes for that meeting.

I have a question on taxis for both the CEO and the deputy CEO. I do not believe taxi drivers and organisations are of the view that the NTA is on their side and is protecting them. There is obviously a dearth of taxis at the moment. Will the witnesses briefly outline the impact of the Covid pandemic because it is clear that many taxis did not return? Coming home from Croke Park the other night, I hailed a taxi and then had to hail a second taxi. The driver would only take cash, by the way. I only had plastic on me. The witnesses might comment on that. As a punter and a real supporter of taxis as public transport, I find that unacceptable. I also want to represent very strongly the concerns and anxiety of taxi drivers, particularly with regard to what are known internationally as ride-sharing services. The most popular of these is Uber. These are not regulated. Given the shortage of taxis, which has a significant impact on consumers travelling in and out of cities from a safety perspective, without mentioning the movement perspective, I would hope that the NTA shares my view that this is not something we should enter into with our eyes shut. Taxis are regulated. There is a certain amount of vetting and other things that people have to go through. New apps allow people to know who the driver is and provide a record of the journey for them and for the driver, which provides security for people who might feel vulnerable using this aspect of public transport.

What are the NTA's plans around the shortage of taxis? I am not sure that I favour the ride-sharing model. It is a kind of free-for-all thing. On the ten-year element, in the past two years of Covid when I have requested assistance or remuneration for taxi drivers I have found the NTA challenging enough to deal with in that respect and in communication. The NTA has the right and entitlement to rebut that. That was the kind of feeling I had. It was very difficult to get answers from the NTA and particularly around taxi concerns.

I took a taxi recently. The taxi driver had bought a brand-new electric car. It is not hybrid, it was just electric. The taxi driver was sharing it with another member of the family. He said, "We are guinea pigs and it is running 24 hours a day." It is saving them €250 per month. The drivers are very pro that and they are very thankful and grateful for the considerable grant but they did have to top it up with a credit union loan. I have made this point previously in the Dáil Chamber and it applies also to many energy and retrofitting schemes, including much that is in the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, space. The taxi driver told me that they went to the garage they purchased the car from. Say, for example, the car cost €50,000 and with the grant it cost €30,000: €50,000 is unaffordable to them but €30,000 might have been affordable. The garage charged them €30,000 for the car and the garage pursued the grant. I do not believe it is widely known that this is allowable. Suddenly it makes a new electric car much more affordable because a person can pay for it without the grant included. It can reduce the price for an electric car for taxi driving from €40,000 to €28,000 or from €50,000 to €30,000. Is that practice widespread? Clearly, it is allowed. Has it been advertised among taxi drivers that if they have X amount they do not need to borrow it and that the garage will pursue the grant? It makes it much more affordable for taxi drivers. I would welcome the NTA's comments on that.

My next question is, very respectfully, directed at the Chairman. For a number of months the metro to south-west group has sought a brief meeting with the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport and Communications. The group represents close to 40 residents associations. The group wants to make a short 30 minute pitch. They made a pitch to Oireachtas Members in the audio visual room, which was facilitated by Senator Seery Kearney. They also made a pitch to the Fianna Fáil parliamentary group for Dublin. They just keep getting acknowledgements but time is running out. I appeal to the Chairman's very good nature to facilitate this if possible before that the Dáil recess. It is actually coming to a critical time. They all know that a metro to south-west is not going to be built tomorrow, and that some of them will never see the sod turned on it. As a strategic piece of infrastructure they, and I as their public representative, want the National Transport Authority to look at it and take them more seriously. They have built up quite a body of work on this and especially around where the metro coming from the north will stop in the city. The committee is familiar with this. The group's argument is that it goes on to Charlemont and then there is the possibility of it turning south west and serving areas such as Rathmines, Harold's Cross, Terenure, Templeogue, Rathfarnham, Knocklyon, Firhouse and maybe connecting with Tallaght; it becomes a forlorn prospect because of the direction of the boring machine. There are plenty of issues on the table. Will the Chairman be able to respond to that request?

It is something we collectively look at as a committee. The timescale on this is very short. We have had a lot of groups looking to come in. We have looked for submissions from groups that we can bring up with the NTA. It is very difficult but it is something we will consider as a committee.

I would be very grateful if the committee would consider it positively. I thank the Chairman.

I thank the witnesses for coming to the committee. On 4 May, in reply to a question from Deputy Steven Matthews, Mr. Creegan stated that for the NTA to look at transport initiatives they must be within the transport plan. Arising from that I want to look at the transport provisions within the plan. Section 12 of the plan sets out all the really big ticket items such as the MetroLink to the airport and to Lucan-Poolbeg, and the second line to Bray. There is no provision in it for the south-west city. The most recent census figures for those areas show: the south-west inner city population is 49,000; the Rathmines and Terenure population is 42,000; the Crumlin and Kimmage population is 41,500; the Templeogue and Rathfarnham area population is 43,000; the Ballyboden and Firhouse area population is 42,700; and in Tallaght the population is nearly 68,000 people. There is a great anxiety, which has already been articulated by Deputy Lahart, that a metro to south-west gets put into this plan as an addendum. We can put forward what we would really love to be put in as a paragraph. Like Deputy Lahart, I implore this committee to exercise its power under section 12 of the Dublin Transport Authority Act to make recommendations to the Minister: that metro to south-west be included; that we have an overturning of the feasibility study, which was inadequate; that there is a proper and fully comprehensive feasibility study put in for the inclusion of metro to south-west; and that this be included in this plan.

On top of these figures, the city edge development is being talked about. That is planned to be in place in ten years, which will add another 75,000 to 85,000 people resident there. The NTA has already acknowledged that it may need two Luas lines for that area. Within that, there are planned disruptions in the construction of BusConnects, which is reasonable and required to deliver on that. There will also be Luas construction on the same streets that will have just been set up and disrupted over a number of years. There is also potentially other forward planning for the likes of a metro to south-west, or otherwise. It makes much more sense to have a comprehensive overview of all of these provisions for the south-west area of the city. I would strongly ask that we would engage in that and to include it so the NTA can consider a metro to south-west in some form or other, even if it is in forward planning. Otherwise, this is going to be kicked down the road. It does not make sense to move ahead with other provisions when there is a very comprehensive possible solution here that should be included.

Attendant to that, I ask that the NTA comment on and reply, hopefully positively, to my next question. In early June, subject to a motion from Councillor Anne Feeney in Dublin City Council, an invitation was issued to the NTA to come into the council to discuss the issue of the MetroLink Charlemont terminus and the significant impact it has for commuters in the area and future transport needs. That was unanimously approved by the councillors. I ask that the NTA would reply positively to that invitation.

I apologise that I missed the NTA's opening statements as I was at another meeting. The draft plan was published in November. We are here now and there have been thousands of submissions in the meantime. The NTA encouraged those submissions, for which I am very grateful. Can the NTA give us a summary of what has changed on foot of those submissions? What changes have been put in place because of those particular submissions? I would really appreciate that.

A Deputy referred to timelines. Within that, I note the original timeline for BusConnects was for six applications by the end of June.

There were only two. What is the timeline now for BusConnects? How can that be delivered so that we have a definitive future plan and idea?

Ms Anne Graham

I still start with the questions from Deputy Matthews and ask Mr. Creegan to answer those.

How did the witnesses wish to proceed?

Ms Anne Graham

It is up to the Chairman.

Is Ms Graham happy to allow further speakers in? Does Deputy Murphy wish to speak?

If Senator Seery Kearney wishes to interact with the witnesses, that is fine.

Does Senator Seery Kearney wish for an interaction?

I am happy to wait. It would allow us to go to a second round.

That is the way we will do it. Deputy Catherine Murphy has ten minutes.

I have a few issues to raise. One relates to the road objective in chapter 13, which outlines the strategic importance of the M50. An area between the N4 and N3, close to the toll bridge, is regarded as having inadequate resilience. The plan states: "The NTA, in collaboration with TII and the relevant local authorities, will seek the development and construction of an appropriate road link between the N3 and N4 national roads, which can provide a satisfactory alternative in the event of incidents arising on the M50 between Junctions 6 and 7." The problem is that it will not only be used for that. Eleven possible routes have been identified. Eight go through Liffey Valley, which is a special amenity area. One, which was formerly identified in the Fingal county development plan and the Kildare development plan, was removed in the review of the development plan following significant involvement of local communities. St. Catherine's Park and Lucan Demesne is a relatively recent development, being approximately 30 years old. The land was purchased by the State and jointly developed by three local authorities. The communities on either side raised funds for playgrounds and other amenities.

The Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly submitted concerns, citing climate action as an issue, about the development of new roads in the Liffey Valley area. Councillors removed the indicative line from the Kildare and Fingal county development plans in 2017. A third world war would erupt if there was an intention to take away a park that people feel invested in and that is heavily used. A road there would bisect the park and make it unusable. There are 11 possible locations, but none of them is easy.

The second issue I wish to raise relates to timelines and low-hanging fruit. DART+ is to be extended to Kilcock. It is described as a new station west of Maynooth. In fact, there will be a depot 350 m east of Kilcock. Rail will be laid all the way up to that depot. The only thing that will not be available when the depot is developed is a place for people to access the train. That is a very short distance. There is a project under way with a railway audit and separate process. This could be combined with a small extension under a different process, which it could be done in conjunction with. It would connect quite a sizable town that has developed on both the Meath and Kildare side.

There is confusion about whether the station 1.1 km west of the existing station in Sallins is a new station or additional to the existing one. Clarity on that would be useful. The population in the area of Naas, Sallins, Kill and Johnstown in 2016 was in excess of 42,000. One would wish to keep that traffic out of the city. It is a commuter area. There is a fair argument to be made for an extension to Newbridge too. It is 24 miles, or 39 km, from Dublin. In 2016, it had a population of 22,000. People drive to the Sallins station and park their cars there. The matter requires consideration.

I have raised the DART tunnel since the 1990s. A timeline is essential if we are going to have a networked service. The Phoenix Park tunnel is useful but it has limitations.

Regarding BusConnects, railways will be key, but the workhorse of the public transport system is bus services because they are much more permeable. A combination of both is important. There is an issue relating to reliability of bus services, whether Go-Ahead, Bus Éireann or Dublin Bus. People will not use public transport to go to work or wherever else they want to go if they feel they cannot get back. There is a significant issue at the moment. I know it is an operational issue rather than strategic. If there is to be a significant investment, it has to be reliable. I know I keep annoying the NTA about this. I experienced one of the first BusConnects routes and there are problems. It is not working in some locations, though it is working well in other areas. Lessons can be learned from the roll-outs and how quickly aspects that are not working can be rectified. The witnesses know about the issues I have raised with them on a number of occasions.

The population of County Kildare is now 246,000. It greatly exceeds the population of Limerick but it tends not to be noticed because it does not have a city in the middle. There are many commuters. County Meath has the same issue. They are rapidly growing areas. When the Dublin Transportation Initiative was embarked on all those years ago, the population of Kildare was half its current size. Not having a consolidation in the centre was not an ideal spatial scenario. The reality is that it is there and has to be provided for. Much additional traffic is being generated by the growth in population.

The Sallins bypass is a great benefit to Sallins but it has had knock-on consequences on towns such as Clane. AA Roadwatch now mentions traffic jams in places that did not have them previously, where the Sallins bypass and the roads from it, or the roads to Maynooth, are acting as a national secondary route more than anything else. That requires additional consideration because it has already manifested.

As we are looking at a strategy with a 20-year horizon, consideration must be given and factored in at this point as to how it can be dealt with.

I thank the Deputy. I will go back to a member of the committee, Senator Buttimer, and then to Deputy Leddin.

I am happy to let Deputy Leddin go first if he wants, just to be fair to him. He has been here a while.

Go ahead, Deputy.

I thank the Chairman and thank Senator Buttimer for letting me in. I wish to pick up on an issue raised by what Deputy Catherine Murphy described about the Sallins bypass and the knock-on effect with the issue in Clane. It proves that when we build these roads and bypasses, they just beget more roads and more bypasses, so we need to think differently about transport. I welcome the NTA's strategy for the GDA. There is different thinking in it around transport and a lot of good stuff in there.

My reason for popping down to the committee was to ask the officials about the gap between the emissions targets we have nationally and the gap in the GDA strategy currently. I think the latter is a 35% cut by 2030, so there is still a significant gap. I was chairing the climate committee earlier and we had officials in from the Department of Transport. They were not really able to tell me whether they had appropriately or adequately modelled for, or considered, the potential for electric bike uptake to meet the ambitious emissions reduction targets. We know from quite recent research from UCC that 40% of all our transport emissions are caused by private car journeys of up to 8 km. Many of those in the upper end of that range, say 4 km to 8 km, might be cyclable but they are certainly doable and comfortable by electric bike. Has the modelling that underpins the GDA strategy considered the potential for very ambitious uptake of electric bikes? We are seeing across Europe and the world that where safe networks are provided, people are using e-bikes for those mid-range journeys. Is that part of the answer to filling that gap? I am not a member of this committee but should it be recommending to the Minister that he explore all possibilities around electric bikes and do all we can do as a Government and a State to facilitate their uptake and usage?

First, I endorse the remarks of my colleague, Senator Seery Kearney, about metro south west. We have had much engagement from members of that group and principals in that area who are articulating strong views. The officials have received a couple of emails, as we have as correspondence, from that committee around the whole Dublin transport authority and Dublin transport plan. I welcome Ms Graham and Mr. Creegan once again. They seem to be permanent fixtures at our committee. They could both take up residence here, no bother at all. They may be surprised that I, a Cork person, am speaking on Dublin but I have a number of points I want to raise on behalf of Councillor Joe Neville, who has engaged extensively with me on the matter, as well as Councillor Pádraig McEvoy, to which I will come back in a second.

In a manner similar to Deputy Catherine Murphy, Councillor Neville has expressed concerns on the issue of St. Catherine's Park. The Deputy is correct the three local authorities took a deliberate stance on that development and I support the remarks she made. I thank Councillor Neville for his engagement with me. The concerns he has raised are articulated in the context of the previous plans and references to putting a road through the park. There is genuine concern at a residential level and at a local authority level because St. Catherine's Park is a special area of conservation in the Liffey Valley area. As the officials will know from the remarks this evening and their own extensive deliberations, it is bordering counties Kildare and Dublin and everybody is concerned that we should not allow it to happen. Councillor McEvoy is a member of the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly, EMRA. It met yesterday and considered the NTA transport strategy for consistency and has put forward amendments around the "Measure ROAD8" proposal.

In the context of what has been said today, I wish to articulate on behalf of Councillors Neville and McEvoy that neither Kildare nor Fingal county councils supported a roadway development between the N3 and N4 across the Liffey Valley in their county development plans. The objective was not added and was removed from the respective plans. The big thing with the NTA's draft transport strategy for the GDA is it has an objective in Measure ROAD8 to develop a new road as a resilience alternative to closure of the M50 between junctions 6 and 7. We have done much work on the committee on changing speed limits on the M50 already but the EMRA continues to have concerns. Deputy Catherine Murphy rightly made reference to climate action in the context of the development of a new road but the concerns expressed to both Councillors Neville and McEvoy rest with the county development plan going back as far as 2017. There is an issue around the transport strategy, given the climate emergency, with additional road development. There is the matter of recommending alternative studies be undertaken if we are talking about reducing car journeys and movement and the whole issue around Measure ROAD8 remaining in the latest draft of the transport strategy. As a committee, and with the NTA, it is about having the Department and the Minister give their attention to the real concerns of local communities. To be fair, both Councillors Neville and McEvoy are outstanding public representatives who rarely engage in terms of the level of concern around this piece of work. I ask that the NTA, in the context of the proposals, give consideration to the full range of options and that it would either engage with the councillors in question or meet the EMRA as a matter of urgency.

As we have heard not just today but on an ongoing basis, it is important to getting it right that there be consultation and co-ordination. There has been on the draft. We have had the Metro South West group engaging extensively with us and Senator Seery Kearney has articulated that but I wished to give a platform to members of the local authority on the issue before us tonight.

I thank the Senator. I suggest the officials, in this first round, go back to the questions put by members and other Oireachtas colleagues. We started with Deputy Matthews, then went to Deputy O'Rourke. Thereafter, I think we went to Deputy Lahart, Senator Seery Kearney, Deputies Catherine Murphy and Leddin and Senator Buttimer.

Ms Anne Graham

I will ask Mr. Creegan to deal with Deputy Matthews's questions, if that is okay.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

I think one of the things the Deputy started off with was the issue of timelines. It is important to say at the outset that, in terms of our legislation, we have two related documents that get produced. One is a transport strategy that takes a look at what needs to be done over the next 20 years. As soon as that is adopted, we are required within nine months of that to have completed what is called an implementation plan, which takes the first slice of six years and provides more detail in that time period about how we are going to deliver the strategy over that period. That is the place to put in the type of details the Deputy was referring to, in order to give greater detail on what is happening in the first six years. At the end of that six years we have to do a new implementation plan covering the next six years, and so on.

We have shaped the strategy in the way we have done knowing that we need to do this separate implementation plan immediately once it is adopted. It must focus on delivery.

We have put in a commitment that decide and provide is much better than predict and provide. Transport must be policy-led as opposed to purely demand-led - certainly in terms of cars. We think we have used that tool correctly. By predict and provide, we do not mean that we look at what the State is like 30 years from now and decide we need to provide it but that we make sure we are providing something that will last for a reasonable design life, for example at least 15 or 20 years. In the case of all the BusConnects corridors, we are comfortable they can cater for the next 15 or 20 years. Members will have seen in the strategy that we believe we need to transition to light rail lines or something else at a point in time. That is part of the decide and provide scenario.

Emissions reductions are set out in the transport strategy. In 2018, the geotechnical design report calculation had about 3.2 million megatonnes equivalent of CO2. We did a calculation to find out what it would be if it was business as usual by 2030 taking account of various other things and we got 3.4 megatonnes. The strategy infrastructure and services measures, the planned electrification under the Government's plan and the biofuels transition only reduce it to 2 megatonnes. I am overcomplicating that. The target we should have by 2030 is 1.6 megatonnes. Everything in the strategy only gets us to 2 megatonnes so there is a shortfall of 0.4 of a megatonne. It does not look like a lot when you put a decimal point in front of it but it is actually quite hard to achieve it. We set out three scenarios in the strategy about how it could be achieved. Some of them are outside our ambit like fuel pricing. In theory, we could electrify further if that was possible and that would deal with it. The third approach was to do more demand management measures, be they parking restrictions, tolling, low-emissions zoning or congestion charging. In the strategy, we committed to using one of the tools in our legislation, which is the tool to do a demand management scheme. Within two years of adopting the strategy we will produce a demand scheme, the objective of which is to set out clearly how we will bridge that gap to get down to the 2030 target.

I will finish off by saying that we think we have done all the positive things we can do to deliver the change that is required. The cycling infrastructure is the right infrastructure and the bus infrastructure is the right infrastructure along with rail and Luas. All that can be done by 2030 will be done. After that, it is more on the minus side where we are going to have to put in more parking restraint, some additional charging in some places and so on. The strategy does all the infrastructure and services sides that are needed. The demand management scheme will have to set out what additional measures are required to meet that target but that is the objective.

The N3 to N4 road link was mentioned by several members. We included it because we think it is the right thing to do. That is why we put it in the strategy. We think there is a case for requiring that road link for the resilience of the M50. If the old West Link Bridge collapsed on the M50, there would be no good alternative and it is the only segment of the M50 where you do not have a reasonable alternative so it is a significant issue from a resilience point of view. We also think there is orbital movement that needs to be catered for in the growing areas of Kildare that is not currently catered for. We are not saying the road needs to go through St. Catherine's Park. At least 11 options have been identified so far. It will be a matter for whoever is taking the project forward to tease their way through those options and come up with the best option. Nowhere in our strategy are we proposing to go through St. Catherine's Park. Of the 11 options, from memory, I think only two involve going through the park. There were a number going east and west of that.

Regarding home zone change, we got feedback on the strategy and took on board what we felt was appropriate. We got some feedback in that area. The main change involves the word "meet". I think we used the word "balance" and instead of changing the word "car dominance", we just said "motor vehicles". I do not have it in front of me but it is something like that. I take the point. The original wording might look better. I do not think there is much difference between the two. I would be happy with either of them.

We got feedback on school site selection. I thought we ended up with quite strong language saying that in selecting the site for a school, you must take account of the sustainable transport needs to serve that school. That is in there as a measure. That is something that has troubled us for a long time. Schools are being built in places where we are finding it very difficult to put in the type of connections that are needed to make it sustainable.

We recognise and committed in several places that rail freight will have to increase. It is definitely going to be part of the tools to meet the climate change target. I am not familiar with the issue in Dublin Port so there are probably details that are beyond what should be in the strategy.

Ms Anne Graham

Regarding assessing a project and focusing on time-based savings, that is a methodology we are obliged to follow because it is the methodology set out by the Department. We have made the case that this methodology should be changed to assess projects in a different way, which would then provide a lot more benefits for those sustainable projects, particularly walking and cycling projects. At the moment, the methodology is as set out so we are obliged to follow that at this time.

I think we responded to Deputy O'Rourke's questions. Obviously, we will respond further if there is any further follow-up. Deputy Lahart also looked at the taxi industry. I will give some facts and figures regarding where we are in terms of the numbers of vehicles in the industry post Covid. We are down about 11% in terms of vehicle licences from pre-Covid. Out of that, there are a number of inactive vehicle licences so there are about 3,200 that could return to the industry in the next 24 months post expiry - they remain connected to the industry and we hope to see as many of them as possible coming back to the industry. The number of those who are available to drive in Dublin has reduced by 5.5% since 2019. We are undertaking a driver recruitment campaign to encourage new applicants to take up driver licences. We hope that this campaign results in new driver licences, as was the case when we did a campaign a number of years ago, so that we can start building back up the sector post Covid. There is no doubt that it is still having an impact on availability at those core hours on Friday and Saturday nights.

As to whether it would make any difference if we were to allow what we would consider a more deregulated market in terms of ride hailing, there is a misconception that the old-style Uber, which was what it was offering, still operates in the UK and western Europe. This involved unlicensed drivers and unlicensed vehicles. In fact, in the UK, the regulations have been changed to permit only police-vetted and licensed drivers to operate even for ride share in London. The same is true for Belgium, Germany, Italy, Spain and France and many cities further afield in which Uber operates. Uber does not operate with unlicensed drivers in London. It is regulated by Transport for London in the same way as any private hire offering. Drivers must have a private hire vehicle driver licence from Transport for London. We would suggest that this regulatory model would also be used in Ireland so that Garda-vetted drivers would be used in terms of Uber services.

That is currently the case with licensed taxi drivers. We would encourage that this remain the case for vehicle licences going through the regulatory model as well as driver licences.

Deputy Lahart spoke about communication around electric vehicle grants. We will ensure that we communicate more around the fact that we can pay the grant directly to the garage rather than the individual. The Deputy made the case that this seemed much more affordable for the taxi industry. If that is not clear in our guidelines, we will make it clearer.

Metro south west was the next issue.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

It was raised by a number of members. A piece of work that we have done - I appreciate that not everyone agrees with it - indicates that metro south west does not stack up economically at the moment. That may change. The terminal point of the tunnel for the MetroLink, assuming it gets the go ahead and is built, is designed to facilitate a connection going either to the green line or to the south west. Alternatively, it could head over to UCD slightly circuitously. However, it most definitely facilitates a connection to metro south west, so it does not preclude such a connection in the slightest. Some groups are concerned that, by bringing it to Charlemont, we are effectively trying to prevent it from going to the south west. Absolutely not. Equally, there is an idea that St. Stephen's Green is the better location, but it is not. The location we have chosen allows the MetroLink to connect with the green line, if required in future, or into the south west, which is more likely.

In reviewing the strategy, which we have to do every six years, we have given a commitment - it is on page 143 of the strategy - that we will assess the requirement to provide additional metro lines in the greater Dublin area based on the updated forecast for travel and demands, emerging significant changes in line use, etc., including previously considered options for extending MetroLink southwards towards UCD, along the existing green line or towards south-west Dublin. We have committed in the strategy to re-examining the matter at the next review, which will be six years from now. Assuming MetroLink is allowed to proceed, nothing we are doing now will preclude a metro link from going to the south west. I hope this gives some comfort.

I will come in on that point. The metro south west group has sent us a great deal of documentation and has made a suggestion, that the witnesses are probably fully aware of, that it would like to see included in the draft strategy. Its correspondence reads:

Metro South West Group would request that the text beneath goes into section 12.3 dealing with light rail as this is where the Strategy deals with both Metrolink and Luas type projects. We suggest that a new paragraph 12.3.15 be added dealing with the south west city and that this conclude with a Measure LRT14. Here is the suggested text:

“Paragraph 12.3.15:

The provision of public transport in the south west city was the subject of many submissions in the consultation process leading to this Strategy. The specific issues in the south west city include:

- The population in the area between Red and Green lines of nearly 350,000 people [I believe from the recent census that this has increased];

- The predominantly narrow road infrastructure in the area;

- The excessive concentration of buses in Terenure and Rathmines;

- The greater modal shift to public transport needed to meet the city target;

- The implications of the City Edge development.

Measure LRT14::

NTA will in the early stages of the plan examine the extension of the Metrolink into South West Dublin. This work will include a full reconsideration of the document entitled "Metro to Knocklyon Feasibility Study" and an extensive public consultation on the options available.”

I am assuming that the witnesses are familiar with this. Has it been catered for in the latest draft?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

Yes, although perhaps not as explicitly as the group would like. We are committing in LRT2-----

What is LRT2?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

It is on page 143 of our document. We-----

Six years is a long time away. Can the NTA carry out that review earlier?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

It has to be completed within six years and we will be starting it within four. These reviews take time. That is the timeline to which we should be working.

The NTA will carry out the feasibility study that the group is requesting.

Ms Anne Graham

In four years' time at the earliest.

Can it be done any earlier?

Ms Anne Graham

No.

Why not?

Ms Anne Graham

A strategy has to have a life of a particular time. This strategy will have a life of six years. A great deal of work is coming out of that strategy in terms of what is set out in the-----

But the NTA is committed to meeting the request of the metro south west group.

Ms Anne Graham

At the review stage of this strategy, which is in four years' time.

In layman's terms, why did the NTA not choose a light rail system in that area?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

We believe that the right solution is to get on with building the BusConnects corridors in that area. It has a number of BusConnects corridors. In looking forward 20 years, we believe that the right measure will be to upgrade two of those corridors to Luas lines instead of pursuing a metro solution, which would be very expensive. However, we are committed to revisiting this decision. If it needs to be changed in future, it can be. Right now, though, the strategy boils down to the need to get on with building the BusConnects corridors and delivering something. There is the potential for light rail in the longer term. If we need to reconsider the metro, we can do so. That is what our position boils down to.

Within the latest draft, the NTA is giving a commitment that this review will take place.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

Yes.

I apologise to Senator Seery Kearney. I did not wish to take up her time. It was just on that specific issue.

I thank the Chair for being so specific. I appreciate it.

A couple of issues are arising that are likely to affect the plans for the bus corridors, for example, large-scale developments. I support the encouragement of public transport, given the closeness of public transport. A proposed development in Terenure has 364 apartments and is likely to have nearly 1,000 residents, but only has 120 parking spaces. The plans for BusConnects are based on current and predicted traffic. There will be future growth. The development in question is only at the application stage, but were it to proceed, there would likely be an overspill of cars parked in the local area. On 4 May, I hounded the witnesses about the double yellow lines on Fortfield Road. We will need to return to a time of double yellow lines being needed because of an overspill of cars. Future elements will affect the effectiveness of BusConnects. There are concerns about that, which I hope that we will revert to. If the witnesses gave me a timeline on the three corridors, it would be great. If we were pursuing MetroLink, we would not have such concerns because it would not be on the road and would not be dependent on factors that we cannot-----

Senator Kearney-----

It is Seery Kearney, thank you, Chair.

My apologies. I am bad with names.

(Interruptions).

I intervened with questions. I will allow the witnesses to answer the Senator's questions, and then we will go around to other members. I just wanted to speak because I had not spoken myself.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

I believe I was dealing with Senator Seery Kearney's queries, metro south west being the first one. Regarding the invitation to attend the council, it was actually an area committee. We struggle with our availability to attend all area committee invitations. It has written to us again and we still have to respond. We try to meet councils in their full format once per year to go through many issues. We get invited to more area committees and other committees than we can manage to attend.

The Senator is correct about BusConnects. There are two submissions with An Bord Pleanála and another is on the way, with a notice appearing in the newspapers tomorrow, namely, Blanchardstown to the city centre. It is being submitted tomorrow, we might say.

The fourth one, from Liffey Valley to the city centre, will be submitted in about two weeks and we hope to get in two more during July. It will be the second half of the year before we have a further six to go, which will include several in the south east and south west of the city. I do not have dates for them but our target is to get them all in by the year end.

In summary, by tomorrow we will have three in, in two weeks' time we will have four and we will then try to build on that.

Ms Anne Graham

Deputy Catherine Murphy raised the issue of the N3 and the N4, which I think we have covered-----

On that, is there any hope the NTA could meet either the regional assembly or the council, on foot of both Deputy Catherine Murphy and me raising it during this meeting? There was reference to 11 options, only two of which are going through St. Catherine's Park, but genuine concerns have been articulated during this meeting, although I appreciate the demands on the authority’s time.

My other point is a housekeeping one. I do not mean to be precious about this, but if there is to be a launch of BusConnects in any part of the country, will our guests invite public representatives, particularly members of the Oireachtas transport committee, to attend it, if that is not too great a request? I appreciate there is to be a virtual meeting and a physical meeting in Cork on Thursday, but it would be unfair to us as members of the committee that there were a launch and we were not invited. That is not a criticism but rather a request.

Ms Anne Graham

We are perfectly happy to extend the invitation-----

There was a launch of BusConnects in Cork last week and there were no-----

Ms Anne Graham

There was not a launch.

Okay. That is why there were no invitations.

Ms Anne Graham

We just published the new-----

The Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, attended an event in Cork a couple of weeks ago, however, and no member of the transport committee, as far as I know, was invited. It is just something to think about.

These are issues for another occasion and I am conscious of our time. Many issues are being raised here. I ask that with future plans, there be much greater consultation at council level and local level, given they have far more information than I have on these issues in the areas. There is an element of frustration on my part because there are issues coming to us about which I have concerns in respect of the level of consultation. We have had a lot of queries coming to members in this regard.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

To return to Deputy Catherine Murphy’s questions, she is absolutely correct that the extension of DART+ covers only a short distance but, as of now, we do not have a policy in place to extend the DART to Kilcock. The national development plan, our transport strategy and probably all the local development plans provide for it being to Maynooth, and we do not want to walk into An Bord Pleanála with something that leaves us open to legal challenge. Irish Rail intends to submit its planning application within the next two months. Our intention, as we have said before, is that it will be a short extension to get from the depot to as far as Kilcock. Some steps are required but they are definitely doable, and we see no difficulty in doing that as a parallel project and in having it come on stream when DART+ West is completed or shortly thereafter. What we do not want to do is delay or cause a problem for the main DART+ project as it goes through its planning process. I hope that within a number of years, we can get that project out to Kilcock given, as the Deputy mentioned, it is a short distance.

On extending it to Newbridge, we do not have that in the strategy. We have only as far as Kilcock in the strategy. On the Sallins question, the intention was that there would be new stations along the bypass. We considered relocating the existing station but it would be too great a move for people who live in the village of Sallins to go up to-----

Mr. Creegan is referring to two stations.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

Unfortunately, there will be two stations and we will have to work out the timetabling to ensure there will not be two trains stopping unnecessarily close together. Perhaps the park-and-ride could have a service starting there and the mainline service might stop in Sallins village. That is to be worked out, but we believe the correct step to take is to put a second station on the Cork side of the existing Sallins station.

On traffic congestion in other areas, I think we will pass that back to the local councils to see what needs to be done. We are not going to resolve it in a strategy; that is for sure.

Ms Anne Graham

The DART+ tunnel is the difficult one.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

Opening the Phoenix Park tunnel has made a big difference to the case for the DART tunnel. When we carry out modelling work, as we do for all these things, we have roughly 1.4 million public transport trips a day in the Dublin region. When we test with and without the DART tunnel in place, there are about 10,000 additional trips due to the tunnel. The tunnel will have lots of people coming through it but they come off the Phoenix Park tunnel link, in the main, and off the bus system. Because the Phoenix Park tunnel link is open, the case for that DART underground is not immediately strong. As we say in the strategy, we think it will be required in the future and we think the line should be preserved and the issue should be revisited and reviewed. When we analyse it in depth, that is what we are getting, although that is different from the situation six or seven years ago, before the Phoenix Park tunnel link was opened. Once it opened, it changed the possibilities and we will now, I hope, have the DART running through it in three or four years.

Ms Anne Graham

On BusConnects, Deputy Catherine Murphy asked about the reliability of bus services, which is an issue throughout our bus system at the moment. We are seeing a reduction in kilometres operated of an order that is not acceptable at the moment and we are not happy with the level of lost kilometres, which is impacting on the reliability of the services. It is an operational issue. We are finding that driver absences are at a level that, even post Covid, we do not feel is acceptable, and it is impacting on the delivery of services.

Driver recruitment is also an issue during this period of effective full employment in Ireland at the moment. All operators are finding it difficult to recruit drivers and the attrition rate for drivers in our bus operators is also very high. All of this is impacting on reliability and we have a number of actions with the operators to try to improve the recruitment timeline for drivers, but we are also looking at our service levels and seeing whether there are places - the Deputy already has identified some for us - where we might move services from one alignment to another to improve the reliability of those services. Even during the summer months, where the demand is not as high as it would be in September, we might reduce services to improve the reliability, given our operators are struggling with driver resources. That is an issue we are tackling with our operators at the moment. The contracts are structured such that they are not paid for services they do not operate, which we thought would be a sufficiently strong incentive to ensure we would get that level of performance, but at the moment, unfortunately, they are all struggling in this space. We have to apologise to our customers because the service is not at the level of reliability at which we want it to be.

On the delivery of the C spine of BusConnects, Deputy Catherine Murphy asked us to look at the lessons to be learned, which we will do, and we will also look at how quickly we can rectify aspects of the services. In terms of the underlying growth in passenger numbers that we have seen over the implementation of the C spine, it has grown by 11% to 12% above what would be a normal growth and recovery after Covid. There has certainly been a good response to some of the services and changes, while recognising there remain some issues on which we will need to revert to the Deputy in regard to how we will respond to them.

I think that we covered Deputy Leddin's question about the electric bikes.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

There was a query about the electric bikes. Our transport model includes a facility to model the propensity of people to use cycling more, including the use of electric bikes. That tool is available and we have used it. On it being part of the answer to plug the gap, it undoubtedly is but we are finding we need to move the longer distance trips to non-combustion engine powered trips, whether public transport or electric. The demand management scheme that we have to prepare will have to tackle that and propose measures that push that changeover more strongly than is the case without it.

Ms Anne Graham

I think that we responded to Senator Buttimer's question in other answers.

We will now move to Senator Horkan who is a member of the committee. He was not in during the last round so I will allow him the liberty of going first this round.

I thank Ms Graham and Mr. Creegan for being here once again. Much of what I would have liked to have said about the strategy I have told them in previous meetings. No doubt Deputy Lahart and Senator Seery Kearney have articulated very strongly the metro south west proposal which I have seen. I live in Dublin Rathdown. I have mentioned the upgrade of the existing green line Luas to our guests before, from Charlemont onwards, although it is not part of this strategy. I do not want to see it being shelved or relegated any further. I would like to see it come back at some point or other versions via UCD and potentially the eastern bypass corridor, which I will return to. In this strategy the NTA is talking about an extension of the green line to Bray. What is happening in Cherrywood and in Sandyford is very substantial. That line is under enormous pressure. I take on board all the points about increasing capacity, the length of carriages and increasing the frequency but the green line is a very popular line. All Luas lines are very popular. They are like magnets. They suck people in because they are so reliable that people are willing to walk or use other ways of getting to those lines because they know they do not have to worry about timetables or it being every half hour because it is just so frequent. They are brilliant but we do not want them to kill themselves by being so popular that they are impossible to use. There were people getting on at Dundrum, going up to Kilmacud to cross the tracks and come back into town because they just could not get on at Dundrum to head towards town prior to the pandemic. I know that happened and I am sure our guests did too. I do not want to see metro south west replace it. There is space for both metro south west and a green line upgrade or a version of the green line upgrade. In terms of the green line being extended to Bray, it is already under pressure. Cherrywood is only starting to take off and it is not remotely close to its capacity. Sandyford has endless amounts of potential. That is before we even mention Dundrum and all the places around it, including Goatstown and all the other areas. I could not sit here without mentioning that the green line needs attention, watching and managing. I accept people might look at this strategy and say it is 2022 to 2042 but we had a strategy from 2016 to 2035 six years ago. It is not that we lock this in now and we never touch it again until 2042. As was pointed out by the NTA, the strategy is a six-year rolling review. It is effectively a living document that gets tweaked and adjusted based on populations, growth, development plans and all the other things. That is important. People might say that we are stuck with this until 2042. Where will we all be, if we are lucky enough to be here at all, in 20 years' time?

I was at an event earlier in Cabinteely. I cycled out there and the whole way back in. Here I am now and I will cycle home later. I am doing my bit for active travel as best I can. I have the best, most secure car park in Ireland on this campus but I know that many people, particularly with the better bikes people have been getting on the cycle to work scheme and so on, are deterred from cycling by the uncertainty that if they lock their bike to a Sheffield stand, or other type of railing or fence, that it will be there when they come back. That is a huge problem. There is reference to secure parking but I do not know how that mechanism works. I do not know how it works in other countries. The weather is not the barrier for a lot of cyclists - it is not the barrier for me because it is not as wet as we might think - but rather if I go to the cinema or a meal will the bike still be there when I return. In many relatively safe places people's bikes go missing; they are stolen. Many more safer places are needed whether they are guarded, locked in a bike-locker type system or in car parks where a credit card or swipe card is needed to get in or out. It is really important that we give people fewer reasons to not use the bike. I probably went for 20 years without being on a bike but am back on one for the last ten. People will realise how quick it is to get into town or to go from A to B on a bike and that is before we even talk about electric bikes, which I kind of feel is slightly cheating but are a real solution for many people and which takes up much less road space than anything else.

Many people will have been to places such as Vienna or Prague where there are huge amounts of civic space. That is not entirely the NTA's remit but it has invested in improving the civic space and public realm generally. The more attractive it is made for cyclists then the more people will shift to it. That does not mean you need to make it less attractive for cars, although there is an element of that. They will move because it is good for their health and their pocket. As petrol gets more expensive, the less you have to buy the better. I am not asking people to cycle in from Maynooth, although I know some people do but there are many journeys that people make in the urban area. I was a councillor for Stillorgan for 12 and a half years and I know that many people make a lot of journeys that are less than 2 km or 3 km that they could probably do far more quickly cycling when you factor in getting to the car, congestion, parking and walking to where you are going. This is a strategy and it is a high-level document and I accept that. I accept many of the points that were made that the public submissions were more operational than strategy but you need to get the small stuff right and you need to have people on board. With BusConnects, people must understand it better. My part of south Dublin has not seen too much of it yet. I think people are willing to embrace it but they need to understand that it will not make their system worse and that it is designed to make their system better. People are fearful of change but then all of a sudden there is a sense that it is fine. There was a big hoo-ha about the number 10 bus being gone and becoming the number 39A. People moved on. There is fear of change so the communications strategy is important.

I mentioned the metro. I am sorry that the green line is being not moved on. I make the point again about the eastern bypass corridor. The proposal for the motorway is gone, that is understood - there is a very significant reservation that cannot be lost or built on because that will never come back - but whether it is a Luas, a linear park with a cycle way or whatever, there are lots of opportunities there. The trip generator is between Sandyford, Dundrum town centre, across to UCD, RTÉ, St. Vincent's hospital right down to the DART line. They are enormous trip generators. There should also be an off-road route. Other countries have done it and we are trying to do it with greenways, although they have been more tourism greenway.

I met people from Dún Laoghaire Rathdown County Council some weeks ago and I am not overly convinced that Mount Anville Road is the best road in the world to put a dedicated path on because the gradient is so steep. Maybe it will work for electric bikes but I know if I was going to go from UCD to Goatstown I would not climb Mount Anville Road to do it. I would go another way that would get me from A to B but without that gradient. There is an opportunity along that eastern bypass corridor with less of a gradient and I would like the NTA to talk to the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council about this. There is also the bit heading towards the city but the bit I am talking about is all in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. There is scope there for a very high-quality off-road linear park with a pedestrian walkway and a cycleway. There is so much traffic and trip generators, particularly to UCD. It is an enormous generator of traffic.

It is also an enormous generator of parking difficulties around the campus and on all of the neighbouring estates on every side of the campus, including the Blackrock, Clonskeagh and Roebuck Road sides, and even towards Donnybrook. Anything that could make it easier to get to those places must be done.

RTÉ is a very significant employer. There are around 20,000 students and 5,000 or 6,000 staff at UCD. We must make it easier to get to and from the campus and connect it up, mainly by cycling if that can be done. A bus corridor or Luas line would be a good idea. We have talked about that a little. There is scope for the green line extension to be brought up to the eastern bypass corridor and along the dual carriageway, up from the DART and on to Sandyford. Currently, the biggest generator of Luas traffic is Sandyford, as the witnesses will acknowledge. Cherrywood will be similar to Sandyford both in terms of residential population and business. It will create more traffic towards Bray. I was asked by councillors in south Dublin and Greystones about building a twin track on the line between Bray and Greystones. I spoke to Deputy Matthews about it, who said it was not possible from an engineering perspective. Maybe that is case, or maybe not. Councillor Jim Gildea contacted me about it and there was a meeting of the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly yesterday to discuss the issue. I was the first chair of the assembly a long time ago, so I am familiar with the work it does on regional and spatial economic strategies. If there was a possibility to introduce a twin track on that line, it would be helpful. If not, the issue deserves attention. We are trying to get people to move from aviation travel to travelling by boat and using Rosslare Port. The better that railway line is and the greater the frequency of trains, the greater the modal shift will be.

I apologise for giving the witnesses a long spiel. I ask them to respond to the points I have made as best they can. The strategy is a 236-page document. There is a lot of good stuff in it. I believe there is a reference in it to the option of introducing metro south west or something else. I would prefer to see metro south west and something else. It looks like it is being presented as an "or" scenario. I would like to see all of the projects progressing, the extension of the green line in particular.

Following up on Senator Horkan's point, Councillor Jim Gildea also contacted me about the Bray to Greystones railway line. My understanding is that the line as far as Bray is a double line and from Bray to Greystones and onwards, it is a single line. Once again, the most important question is why a double line was not considered. Is the NTA going to have a feasibility study of the plan?

I do not know if my next point was raised earlier. Councillor Sharon Tolan has highlighted the issue of fair fares and the 90-minute fare. I ask the witnesses to address why an extension of the application of the fare outside Dublin was not considered. I think some were asking for it to be extended for travel as far as Drogheda. That particular issue has been raised in numerous areas. In my capacity as a Deputy representing Limerick city, I must highlight that the Minister for Transport wrote to the NTA about the draft Limerick-Shannon metropolitan area transport strategy, LSMATS. Did he do anything similar with the greater Dublin area strategy? Has anything in the strategy been included at the request or on the direction of the Minister for Transport that would not otherwise have been included in the view of the NTA?

Ms Anne Graham

We will respond to Senator Horkan's points first.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

On the extension of the green line, we agreed that the green line will be a watch project for a long time. As the Senator is aware, we have the ability to add capacity but at some point, more is needed. As the Senator rightly said, it needs attention. When that intervention is required, plans will be put in place to deliver it. We will wait and see what the plans are.

On the issue of bike parking, there is a whole section in the strategy on bike parking. The Senator is right that bikes are getting more expensive now, particularly electric bikes, and theft is an issue. The strategy addresses the issue of bike parking. On a more practical level, we support local authorities and Irish Rail in putting in secure bike parking places. Irish Rail, in particular, has installed secure bike lockers at various stations around the country, which we have funded. We will and must do more of that. We accept the Senator's point entirely. We need the local authorities to work with us. I know Dublin City Council has extensive plans to put a lot of off-street cycle parking in different places. That will be needed.

The installation of off-street cycle parking is fine but it needs to be secure.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

I understand.

Otherwise, it is just a magnet for criminals, who will see a lot of bikes and pick the best ones. Security is the most important issue.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

I agree. There are plenty of bike locker solutions that can be put in place.

On the eastern bypass reservation, the Senator is probably aware that we have included in the strategy a commitment to carry out an assessment with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council to identify sustainable transport use for that southern corridor that runs through Dún Laoghaire. We have engaged with the council on the matter. The council is anxious to use the corridor for the same purpose. There is no deviation there. We will wait and see what the solution is.

I am sure the Mount Anville Road solution is fine. However, I am conscious that I do not want the NTA to decide that it has spent a lot of money on the Mount Anville Road solution, so the eastern bypass solution will not be implemented. That needs to happen as well.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

I agree.

The eastern bypass solution is preferable to the Mount Anville Road solution. If the Mount Anville Road solution is an interim one, that is great, but I do not want the NTA to tell us we do not need the eastern bypass solution because the Mount Anville Road solution has been implemented.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

That is not the case. The eastern bypass reservation provides a lot of connections between key locations, particularly UCD.

On the rail link between Bray and Greystones, there is a single track there. I am always reluctant to say that something is not possible, because usually it is possible to deliver it in some way. However, in this case there are environmental designations on Bray Head that make it exceedingly challenging.

What does that actually mean?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

It means that there are special areas of conservation there. It is very difficult to go in and-----

That term covers a multitude. I often find it covers a multitude.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

We would like to put in a twin track there.

The NTA would?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

We would. What we are doing instead is taking a section of twin track as far as we can out of Bray and as far as we can northwards out of Greystones. We are left with a short distance of single track. Through controlling that short distance with signals, we know that we can run a 20-minute DART service in both directions. That is three trains an hour in both directions.

I thought a siding was to be constructed to allow the single track to be more effective. Councillor Gerry Walsh in Greystones and Councillor Jim Gildea in Dún Laoghaire brought the issue to my attention and stated they would like to see an upgrade. I am sure they also contacted the Chairman about the issue.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

It is part of the DART+ project. It is DART+-----

Will any of it be a double track?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

A section coming out of Bray and a section coming out of Greystones and heading north will be a double track. Where there are environmental restrictions, we stick with single track.

What is the timeframe for delivering that work?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

It is part of the current DART+ project. It is probably six or seven years away from being fully completed.

What about getting initial works under way, including the design and planning?

Ms Anne Graham

A consultation is planned for that part of the project. It has not started but it is planned.

There will be a consultation.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes.

Is that imminent?

Ms Anne Graham

Yes,

That is positive.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

The Chairman asked the same question about that line.

I have no doubt Councillor Gildea and other colleagues will get back to me on the issue. From the NTA's response, we know something is happening in that part of the project.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

I will answer-----

There is a lot of growth in that general part of the world and more is forecast. The area is relatively close to Dublin. It is Deputy Matthews's area more than mine. If we can get people living in those areas and commuting - if they need to - in a sustainable way using rail, it would be much better than all of them trying to get into Dublin on the Rock Road or the N11.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

The Chairman asked if we received any requests or direction from the Minister on the strategy. We have not.

Not yet anyway.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

In fairness, it is a different process. It is a statutory process. It is for the Minister to ultimately approve the process. The answer to the Chairman's question is that we did not receive any requests or direction on the strategy.

What powers does the Minister have over the document?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

According to legislation, we have to prepare the strategy. The committee can provide observations to the Minister, but it is the Minister's function to decide to approve it, reject it or request that it be modified.

It is the Minister's function to decide whether to approve, reject or require the strategy to be modified.

What is the process if the Minister does not reject the strategy but requires a modification?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

That would come back to us and depends on the type of modification. If the modification is a very large one, it may take us a bit of time and may require extra work.

Would the NTA request further public consultation?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

I do not know the answer to that question. We have not been there before.

Ms Anne Graham

No, so it would be a new area. It would depend on the level of change. My understanding is that once the Minister adopts or approves the strategy with changes then that is it, effectively.

What is the timeframe for the Minister to give his approval or make a decision?

Ms Anne Graham

The Minister has no time constraint.

The committee was given a month, which is an impossible time limit.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes, that is within the legislation.

A month is an impossible time limit for us yet it is open-ended at the Minister's end. Am I correct?

Ms Anne Graham

That is my understanding, yes.

Is the NTA's timeline confined?

Ms Anne Graham

We are confined in that we are obliged to conduct a review every six years and, unfortunately, it is set out that the committee has just four weeks.

A county development plan is done every six years. Does the NTA start this process two or four years out from the six years? When will the next review of this process commence?

Ms Anne Graham

In four years.

It is, therefore, a two-year process. We, as a committee, should seek a larger window and show that in legislation.

We sought an extension of time but that was not forthcoming.

Apparently, the law says, "No".

Obviously one wants to be fair. A public forum such as the committee affords us an opportunity to raise the issues of concern to people. The timeframe that has been set out for the committee is unsatisfactory.

It is a tight timeframe.

Yes, it is only a month. The Senator has made an imminently sensible suggestion.

I thank the witnesses for answering the first round of my questions and I will come back on some of their answers. I will continue from where I left off and acknowledge there are some positive freight measures. I got caught up discussing rail freight and I want to discuss the last mile of freight or cargo delivery. The strategy suggests that we should examine the feasibility of how we introduce those, which not only cuts down on emissions but improves road safety. We should go further by identifying and tackling the barriers, and develop the incentives to have low-emissions cargo-bike-type freight last mile delivery.

Another issue is parking charges, which is quite extensively mentioned both in this and the previous document. We know that low parking charges or free parking at workplaces and shopping centres encourage people to drive. How does the NTA assess the benefits and where is the best place to introduce them?

The Safe Routes to School programme is very positive and I know from the document that it was introduced in 2021. Has the NTA identified the barriers to creating safe routes to school? The strategy mentions: "To accelerate the delivery of walking and cycling infrastructure". The delivery of safe cycling infrastructure encourages uptake and creates a safe route to school, not just cycling infrastructure, which we know has been quite poor in the past and, therefore, it is about creating segregated safe routes as much as possible.

I will review some of the answers. I raised the issue of the timeframe and the witnesses said that in nine months there will be an implementation plan that sets out a six-year timeframe and give more detail on the delivery of projects. How does the NTA decide what goes into the six-year plan? Is that information set out anywhere? What influences the authority's decision? Is it emissions reduction, a modal shift or what gives the best return? Is the information on the best return used by the authority to decide what to introduce first? 2030 is not far away and is getting closer the whole time but transport emissions are not reducing. That aspect must be a guiding principle when it comes to the deciding the timeframe. Similarly, with decide and provide. There is induced demand when a road is built and it fills up with cars but the same is true for public or active transport. As we have seen in many places, when infrastructure is built, demand is induced and it fills up pretty quickly. It is difficult to accurately work out what is going to happen but we have seen enough examples to say that if infrastructure is built, people will use it.

On a further emissions reduction of 0.4 MtCO2eq, the witnesses mentioned that there are demand management measures required to reach the target of zero emissions. After two years of the plan being passed and published, the NTA will introduce demand management measures to reduce the 0.4 MtCO2eq but how long will it take to introduce the measures? I ask because these measures are critical but will not happen for two years, 2030 is looming and we will probably be into the next term of government.

Reference has been made to orbital movements for the N3 and N4 national roads. I gather from what the witnesses have said that the measure facilitates car orbital movements. Essentially, it is a road that will create more car use in the area. If we have learned one thing from the way that we build roads is that they fill up with cars. I understand why the NTA feels that there is a possible weak link on the M50 at the Liffey Valley Bridge and that traffic would be in chaos if an incident were to happen. If that link road were to be used purely for public transport or active travel links and in the event that an incident happened on the M50, we could probably consider it more favourably but at the moment it is not something that I would favour or see as being required because it facilitates more car usage.

On page 136, there is a map of regional bus corridors and I think that the regional bus corridor ends where the page ends. Where exactly does the regional bus corridor end or was it simply a case of fitting the map nicely on the page? We talked about the Bray to Greystones rail service. For years, I tried to get an assessment done in order to improve rail services or have electrified rail services to Wicklow but it was never in the strategy so it could not be accounted for in an N11 roads assessment. Again, does the regional bus corridor go further than what is displayed on the map? Is the map for indicative purposes or can one rely on it to show the actual bus corridor?

Deputy Leddin asked a question about electric bikes. Of course, electric bikes will play a role but we need to reduce our long distance journeys by providing bus and rail services. In addition, a high percentage of car journeys last between 4 km and 8 km.

We have made it convenient for people to jump in a car and to drive those short distances. We must make it much more convenient and safer, in the context of e-bikes and scooters, for people to have the choice to go on safe infrastructure. That is where we will get that modal shift. We must assess what road infrastructure and road allocation will be required to put in that safe infrastructure to facilitate people to travel safely. If we do that, then people will use those forms of transport. It is a recommendation I suggest as well. As Senator Horkan said, there is some good stuff in this document. I wish we had seen something like this 20 years ago and that we could have implemented it. We would be refining it even further now. It is a very good document, though, and I thank the witnesses for presenting it.

Will Ms Graham deal with the issue of fairer fares and the distances involved? It is the last remaining item outstanding.

Ms Anne Graham

It is and I was going to come back to it. In the answer to a previous question, I outlined that we are undertaking a study of fares, particularly on the regional commuter fares, to try to ensure we have a fairer structure in place when people are going from the short hop zone, which is where the Leap zone is, compared with intercity fares. There is too big a jump now. We want to have a smoother, distance-based fare when people are going from Dublin city centre-----

Ms Graham is talking about the 90-minute fare.

Ms Anne Graham

Then we have the 90-minute fare. This was chosen for the area where there would be what would be considered the metropolitan fare. It is more or less inside the M50. Some of the rail and DART services go beyond that area. We think a more appropriate 90-minute fare, where there are interchangeable bus, rail and Luas services, would be one terminating at the zone we had indicated. If people are coming on the DART from stations outside that 90-minute zone, however, they can avail of free fares on buses and Luas trams within the 90 minutes. Therefore, they will only pay their DART fare, and it is not-----

We have seen the changing demographics in the recent census. We have had great population growth in Meath and Westmeath. We can see what has happened. The commuter belt has all gone like that. Many people are commuting to Dublin for work. Based on this aspect, is this something the NTA is examining?

Ms Anne Graham

We are not currently looking at extending the 90-minute fare zone.

Why not?

Ms Anne Graham

We think that is the appropriate distance from the city centre to be able to do the interchange and to connect with the bus services. If people are, however, in the Leap zone but beyond that 90-minute zone, they will still pay their rail fare and not any more than that to interchange on the Luas and rail services. That is not the case for people beyond the DART zone, where it is necessary to pay for any additional bus or rail services.

How far does that zone go?

Ms Anne Graham

It currently goes as far as Bray. I will have to check.

An issue that has been raised by people such as Councillor Sharon Tolan regarding towns such as Drogheda, which are now large commuter-----

Ms Anne Graham

Those towns are beyond the DART and current Leap fares. They would be-----

People are now living further out and commuting to work in Dublin, much more than was the case ten to 15 years ago. Therefore, should the NTA public transport policy not follow the changes in the demographics?

Ms Anne Graham

That is what I am trying to outline. This is the detailed fare study we are doing. We must have a structure in our fare that-----

A study is being carried out now.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes.

How far advanced is that?

Ms Anne Graham

It is very advanced. If we are in a position to seek additional funding to be able to put that in place, we want to put this forward as part of the budgetary discussions this year.

In layman's terms, what is in that study?

Ms Anne Graham

It is not fully developed yet.

How far will that go out? What areas will it cover? Will it be nationwide, or is it just concerned with extending the commuter belt?

Ms Anne Graham

It is looking at the commuter belt and outwards. It is the boundary between what is the Leap zone, the short hop zone, and the commuter fares. That is where we are having particular issues. It is deemed to be unfair and we agree.

The information will be presented as part of the budget submission from the Department of Transport.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes.

Will it go in before September?

Ms Anne Graham

It will be in around September. That is what we are aiming for.

Have there been public consultations on this?

Ms Anne Graham

No.

If people wish, can they submit questions on this to the NTA?

Ms Anne Graham

We have had many requests to look at this aspect, so we know what the issues are in this regard. We are still working on the solutions.

Fine. We will go back to Deputy Matthews.

I call Deputy O'Rourke.

I thank the witnesses for their responses. Following on from that last question and regarding the modelling being undertaken, is that being done in the context of the 20% fare reduction built in or is it based on a situation where that reduction is not carried on?

Ms Anne Graham

We must do both. The Government may decide to continue that 20% reduction in fares. Equally, that reduction may not be there and we will have to see what the associated changes would be in that context.

Both scenarios are being modelled. That is fine. Turning to a few things that have come up, and again concerning the modelling, is there any decent study or information of which Ms Graham is aware that explores the relationship between service frequency and demand? If a service runs more regularly, does that increase the demand for it? Is that something the NTA sees?

Ms Anne Graham

It depends on what area we are talking about.

Just as a rule of thumb, is there information that indicates this type of situation occurs or does it depend on the context?

Ms Anne Graham

Yes, it depends on the place.

The data will show that-----

Ms Anne Graham

It depends how many people are living in a location and how many jobs there are, for example. We examine the census data to see what trips people are making. If they are making a proportion of those trips by car but there is potential to increase the frequency of public transport, then we might get a shift from the car to public transport. This is what Connecting Ireland is all about. It is concerned with trying to improve the frequency of services, to provide new services where there are none to try to encourage people to use public transport, and to make those services as frequent as is reasonable for the local demand. Anywhere we have increased frequency across our urban services to our rural services, we have seen a good response in the numbers of people using those services.

I refer to that information not existing. I would have presumed in the context of Ms Graham's response that it is all relative. My question should not really depend on how many people live in an area. If my question is about whether there is a correlation between an increase in frequency and an increase in demand, then there could be a smaller increase in demand relatively speaking. I wonder about this point. It would be an important consideration in developing services if we had that information and to know if it exists internationally. The Connecting Ireland context refers to services that run three times a day.

Ms Anne Graham

That is a minimum service, and that is to serve the very small towns. Service development is usually done on a very local basis. The team would look at the circumstances in the local area. They would examine the public transport services there now.

It might be a useful exercise to collate work done on this topic in the past to see if there are patterns in respect of demand versus service.

Ms Graham will appreciate we are always told locally there is a need to go on high to the NTA to get approval-----

Ms Anne Graham

What we can give the committee information on, if it is interested, is some of the recent improvements we have made, especially to our rural services. We can show the committee the growth and success we have had in respect of the number of people now attracted to those services.

Does the NTA have data showing that the 20% reduction in fares and the student reductions have resulted in more people using public transport?

Ms Anne Graham

We need to do a little bit more work on that to see whether there was an underlying recovery in public transport post Covid. We need to compare it to previous years to see what the growth was. We tend to see a reduction in the number of passengers at this time because colleges and schools are closed

Looking at public transport at the moment, I would say numbers are way up. I use the train.

Ms Anne Graham

The train has recovered.

It is incredible. Even buses have recovered. There is definitely a modal shift.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes.

The question is whether the fares reductions contributed to that. Following on from Deputy O'Rourke's point, will the NTA do work around that area?

Ms Anne Graham

We will because this is a very-----

On policy.

Ms Anne Graham

It is policy and we do not often get an opportunity to have that level of reduction and see how people respond. On the initial response, outside of Dublin there has been a growth in the number of trips. It is about 10% across all services, buses and rail. In Dublin, there is not the same recovery in terms of the fare reductions. It is much lower.

Is that because a higher percentage of the population uses public transport already?

Ms Anne Graham

Yes. We need to delve into what is and is not attracting people.

The numbers travelling by train are incredible at the moment.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes, we have seen strong growth.

It is an efficient and timely service, and is good value in the main. For the committee to have that discussion around policy, we must do it, as Deputy O'Rourke said, with defined data.

Ms Anne Graham

We would be happy to provide that data and to do more of an in-depth customer sentiment discussion to see whether customers changed their patterns associated with the fares reduction, rather than just relying on figures.

When will the NTA get the opportunity to put someone on that?

Ms Anne Graham

It will be around September. September is always a good indication of how things will recover, even more so because the fare reductions for young adults and students are quite significant. I think that will drive more of them to public transport.

Mr. Creegan mentioned the propensity to shift towards bicycles or e-bikes. If the models do not adequately factor in human behaviour, we could underestimate or overestimate. The big risk is to underestimate the modal shift opportunity that is there.

Returning to the late-night economy, taxis and public transport, the situation every weekend, particularly in Dublin, is not satisfactory. The system is broken in terms of transport for people. Will the witnesses spell out where they envisage it going? We are coming into July. The witnesses say in September the increased taxi fare will come in. When will the NTA introduce the campaign to recruit people into the industry? Notwithstanding increased fares and the recruitment drive, I hear from the taxi industry that, due to transferability and the ten-year rule, there might be a drop-off on the other side and we might not be in a better scenario. The NTA has to do calculations on that but that scenario may arise. How is the NTA continually reviewing this? Will it review transferability or the ten-year rule? What if there is not a significant uptake on the recruitment drive and the new fare structure does not bring people out during those important hours? I have a personal concern about the taxi industry, which I see reflected in the industry generally.

A related question concerns when the public transport options will come on stream. We meet with transport providers and they say they are ready to go and if the NTA gives them the green light, they will deliver. The witnesses may have a different perspective and I would be interested to hear it. We are in an unsatisfactory situation. The witnesses are aware of that and have been contacted by the media and others in relation to it, including, I am sure, public representatives, and, I hope, the Minister. Will they project forward the solution? At what points will they consider everything I am outlining in terms of transferability and the ten-year rule?

Ms Anne Graham

I do not believe the system is broken as the Deputy outlined. We have a demand issue for four hours per week, two on a Friday night and two on a Saturday night. It is Dublin-specific. I understand there are problems with demand in Cork throughout the day but in Dublin there are four hours when the number of taxis required are not available. We do not believe the licensing and regulatory system is broken. We are still recovering from the Covid period. I was surprised to hear the Chair mention earlier that the taxi drivers found it difficult, or one of the members of the committee mentioned it.

It was not me. It was probably Deputy O'Rourke.

Ms Anne Graham

No, I think it was another member of the committee who said they found it difficult to engage with the NTA during that period, which-----.

That was Deputy Lahart.

Ms Anne Graham

Apologies, Chairman.

One should never comment on someone who is not present, but we will-----

In defence of Deputy Lahart-----

Ms Anne Graham

We all have to recognise that significant Government and NTA support was given through the Covid period to protect the industry and retain vehicles and drivers to be there when the demand grew, as it is now growing, for their services.

The actions we have taken to support the industry are as follows. They currently have no licence fees to pay. We believe entry to the industry is at a relatively low level and cost. The driver recruitment campaign we are about to undertake will begin immediately. We will give information to the public to encourage new drivers into the industry to boost the general availability. There is no doubt that the drivers in the industry are not attracted to operate at night time between 1 a.m. and 3 a.m. The maximum fare proposal that has been approved is set out to incentivise that by providing they will be paid at a higher rate for operating at peak hours, which are 8 p.m. to 8 a.m. We hope that will encourage more drivers to operate at that time. A number of supports are available for entrants to the industry. We provide grants for the provision and conversion of vehicles to be wheelchair-accessible and now the e-SPSV grant as well.

On the public transport side, we are committed to providing additional bus services which operate on a 24-7 basis. Our operators are struggling to provide the services they are contracted to operate at the moment.

While we can try to do as much as possible with the resources that are available to see if we can extend the working hours of our public transport services, we must be realistic about what driver resource is available to be able to do those additional 24-7 services. However, they are built into the improvements in BusConnects. One more 24-hour service was put in place recently, the N4, and there will be additional services provided this year. We said we would look at the Nitelink bus services to see if we could extend them and have them operating more frequently. We are also looking at the fares charged on Nitelink to see if we can encourage more usage of those services. We will do as much as we can on the public transport side to provide for additional service and to provide for that additional demand as we grow and encourage the taxi market to grow and recover post Covid.

What timeline does the NRA envisage for the public transport piece and the taxi piece? Regarding the notion that the system is working or is not broken, people are waiting an hour and a half for a taxi or are unable to get a taxi. Then there is the idea that it is just four hours at the weekend. It is like the Dublin Airport Authority appearing before the committee and saying the system is working fine apart from 7 a.m. until 12 noon, when there are thousands of people outside.

Ms Anne Graham

That is the peak time.

The system is either working or not working. It is not working for those people, and there are thousands of them. They are on social media and will contact public representatives, particularly in this city. It is not a satisfactory or acceptable position. I firmly hold that view. With due respect, it is the NTA, the Department and the Minister who have responsibility to ensure that services are provided for people, or at least to regulate so we have a healthy taxi environment and public transport system to respond to people's needs. What Ms Graham is saying is really unsatisfactory in terms of the waits that people have, the frustrations and the delays. Those delays have potentially serious implications. Some of them might be hospital trips or other important trips. For me, that is a system that is not working, even if it is for just four hours at the weekend and is localised in the city. It is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Ms Anne Graham

As I said previously, this is an industry where we do not cap the numbers of people or vehicles entering it. We are the regulator for that system and we set out a regulatory framework to ensure that the vehicles and the drivers are appropriate to operate a taxi and SPSV system. Even though we are not required to encourage more drivers, we are undertaking to do that. That is something we are taking on ourselves even though it is not appropriate because we are not contracting operators to provide-----

Yes, the NTA regulates the system and it is up to people-----

Ms Anne Graham

To respond.

Yes, of their own volition.

Ms Anne Graham

They are individual operators who respond to the demand. If the demand is there, and we know it is, we are doing whatever we can within the regulatory system to be able to encourage them to meet that demand.

Has the NTA been able to look at the number of taxis operating in the greater Dublin area before and after Covid-19?

Ms Anne Graham

Yes.

What is the result?

Ms Anne Graham

I indicated earlier in my answers that there was a reduction.

How much was it?

Ms Anne Graham

It was 5.5% of drivers in the Dublin region.

Does the NTA, as the regulator, have a sense of what is an appropriate number of taxis for the Dublin area that it is aiming for and hopes to have in place by mid-July, the end of July and by the end of summer? To follow up on that, if the NTA takes these measures, and I see it is limited in the levers it has to the fare structure piece and the recruitment campaign piece, and we end up in a situation, at the end of October coming up to Hallowe'en, that is no better than it is now, will the NTA consider the ten-year rule? There will be 5,300 vehicles off the road before this time next year, which is going to compound a difficult situation. Will the NTA look at that issue and at the transferability? Is it open to the prospect of things not improving in the medium term?

Ms Anne Graham

There are a number of different questions there. The Deputy asked if we set an optimum number in terms of the availability of taxis in an urban region such as Dublin. We do not set a cap on that but we compare ourselves and the numbers of available SPSVs per capita both in Ireland and in Dublin. For all of Ireland there are 3.7 SPSVs per 1,000 population. That far exceeds the number for most countries in Europe. The average number of SPSVs in western Europe is 1.3 SPSVs per 1,000 population. Only in the UK is it more than that at 4.4 SPSVs per 1,000 population.

What about Dublin?

Ms Anne Graham

In Dublin we have 7.4 SPSVs per 1,000 population. Cities of comparable size such as Oslo, Hamburg, Vienna, Seville and Brussels have between 0.6 and 1.9 SPSVs per 1,000 population. If we are compared to other cities and other regions, we should be considered as well served in terms of the numbers of SPSVs per head of population. However, as I said previously, there is still an issue with demand at a particular time. While we have that availability, they are all not coming out at the peak time. That is why we are undertaking the measures I outlined earlier to encourage drivers to be available at those peak hours.

There is another activity that is running in parallel. It is part of the night-time economy working group under the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin. I am involved in the working group and it is looking at how to spread the demand across the night-time economy, which is looking at the licensing-----

Extending opening hours.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes. It would mean there would be less of that peak, and it is difficult to serve that peak because everyone is coming out at the same time. Along with the actions being taken by other Departments and by us in trying to encourage more activity in the taxi sector, as well as trying to provide as much as we can with the driver resources we have on our bus services, and we are committed to do more where we can, we hope that it will meet customers' demands.

On the other regulatory suggestions the Deputy made regarding the vehicle age and transferability, it is not something we are going to consider at this time.

When might we hear about the night-time economy piece? That is obviously something that would help. I have to say that I am hearing in Ms Graham's responses that she recognises that there is a problem, even if she does not agree with me-----

Ms Anne Graham

It is a demand not meeting supply problem. I understand that but I do not believe the entire system is broken as a result. These are issues we have had at particular times. Years ago, it always seemed to be a Christmas problem, with queues at ranks at those times. We were able to manage that by growing the sector to deal with that.

The sector was deregulated at the time, basically overnight. It was a supply issue at the time and the then Minister deregulated it overnight.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes.

It was a supply issue. The question is: why is it different now?

Ms Anne Graham

There is no cap on supply and the barriers to entry are very limited. The cost of entry into the market is also very limited. It is really down to how we can attract more people into the industry.

Particularly for that time of the night.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes, particularly for that time of the night.

Obviously, we all use taxis and such night work is very difficult for many of the drivers.

Ms Anne Graham

Challenging.

It is very difficult for a lot of people.

Something will have to looked at in respect of the offer because it is a very difficult job.

Ms Anne Graham

To be fair to them, yes.

It is seriously difficult.

At a time of relatively full employment, there are other opportunities that might not have been there in a different economic climate. People who might have been driving taxis during the pandemic discovered other things to do with their existence and, to a certain extent, have not gone back.

It is all very well saying we have more SPSVs than many other places. That may be true and I am not doubting the NTA's figures. It would be fair to say, however, we have an awful lot less public transport provision than cities such as London, Berlin, Rome or Paris, which have metros, overnight metros, night buses and all kinds of other transport. The taxi service is doing everything from about 12.30 a.m. onwards. There is nothing else in town. There are a couple of Nitelinks-----

Ms Anne Graham

There are Nitelinks but we have now-----

-----and there are a couple of Luas trams at Christmas but that is it.

Ms Anne Graham

No. There are eight 24-hour services now operating in Dublin. That is-----

Where are we going with that?

Ms Anne Graham

To deliver as many as we possibly can through our BusConnects proposals, and even to look at the Nitelinks to see-----

That is my question about night routes and Nitelink. It was possible to get on a Nitelink bus in town but nowhere else, apart from the odd one or two stops.

Ms Anne Graham

That is why we are looking at those.

On a night route, someone can get on or off anywhere.

Ms Anne Graham

Exactly. It is a much reduced fare as well. We are even having capacity issues on some of our 24-hour services now because we need to put in increased-----

I can probably look this up, but what routes are there in the south-east or south of Dublin now? The number 16 route is there.

Ms Anne Graham

The number 15 is a 24-hour service.

That goes to Rathfarnham or somewhere.

Ms Anne Graham

I think it is Ballycullen across to Clongriffin.

Heading east, is the number 16 to Ballinteer a 24-hour route?

Ms Anne Graham

Not yet.

Is there anything east of Rathfarnham and that number 15 route?

Ms Anne Graham

Not at the moment. The Luas operates beyond 11.30 p.m. up to about 1 a.m.

It does. The last Luas tram is at 12:17 a.m. or something.

Ms Anne Graham

That is right.

The last tram leaves at 12:41 a.m. from St. Stephen's Green. Do not worry, I have been on it and I will use it again.

Ms Anne Graham

There are then Nitelinks on a Friday and Saturday.

Yes, but they are quite limited. There are none for my area. There is one for Dundrum.

Ms Anne Graham

There is. There would be.

There is nothing for Goatstown, unless the NTA is introducing one. There was one, the 44 route, but it vanished a long time ago. On the airport link, when will we be able to get the MetroLink to Dublin Airport?

Ms Anne Graham

The business case is about to go to the Government for approval.

I know. What is the timeline for when we think people will actually get on and off trains and metros to the airport?

Ms Anne Graham

I will allow Mr. Creegan to take that one.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

One answer is the Minister will announce that shortly.

That is an ecumenical matter, obviously.

Nobody is watching. It is fine.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

It is hoped construction works can start. We have to go through a planning process and, we hope, come out the other side successfully. We are assuming it will take two years or so to do that, which is the length of time previous projects have taken. Some of the advance construction works will possibly start, assuming the project is approved, in 2025, but there is a long period of construction for this project. It will be after 2030, probably in the window of 2031 to 2034, before it is fully complete.

Somewhere between the window of 2031 to 2034, passengers will be able to get on and off a metro at Dublin Airport.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

Yes. That is because it takes that length of time to build something as big as this. The Elizabeth line in the UK only opened-----

I remember former Deputy Seamus Brennan proposed a busway on the Luas corridor in 1987. I was at the opening of the Luas in 2004. I get the point but I would still like some level of window, even if it is a three-year window. I thank Mr. Creegan for that, as far as it goes.

We talked about safe routes. There are so many housing estates where there is a wall or something that stops them. Local authorities are looking at this. These routes can sometimes be controversial because people think they will have the Tour de France going through their estate every day, but is there an element of permeability? Sometimes, when these things are opened, people say they never realised they could get from there to there. It takes 25 minutes in the car or in traffic, or an hour to walk but, all of a sudden, if the wall is knocked down, it is different. Does the NTA do any work on that? Does it fund local authorities doing work on this? Does it promote that kind of thing?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

We have guidance on permeability projects that we published a few years ago. We think these projects are super-useful for the reasons the Senator outlined. There are walled estates where nobody can access the bus service. People can almost throw a stone at it but they cannot get to it. As the Senator is aware, it is very controversial. We have not been able to do as many as we would like. I am pretty sure we have done some before and after surveys. I am sure we have that-----

Is it something the NTA is encouraging local authorities to look at?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

Absolutely. One of the recent BusConnects proposals to An Bord Pleanála that was mentioned earlier contains an example of that on the northside of Dublin, where we have opened up an estate and propose to connect it to the bus corridor.

People are often fearful of change but the minute it happens, they are delighted it has. They are still fearful of the change until it is-----

Mr. Hugh Creegan

If we were to go back to people a year after these things have been put in to ask if they want to close them, in most cases, there would be greater opposition to that than there was in the first place.

I saw a couple of them on the way, including Cabinteely today. I remember being a councillor at the opening of the old Harcourt Street line through to Leopardstown. It was said this would be the end of the world but it is now there. Fences are gone from places that had them and people are using the route, which is brilliant to see. It is so cheap, delivers such a good service, and people can get to the Luas, DART, BusConnects and cycling.

On new bus routes, the 175 is the kind of route we look at and wonder why it was never there before. Admittedly, I looked at it a couple of days ago and two buses in a row were cancelled. I accept that is possibly related to Covid. Who looks at new routes and who plans them? Do Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead representatives come to the NTA to say they think a particular route will work? Does the NTA plan these routes? Who does that work?

Ms Anne Graham

We plan the routes more and more so now. In our early days, the operators came to us with improvements for routes, but we now set out the plans for new routes. That is what BusConnects is all about. At present, we are not doing any new routes in Dublin. Our focus is on delivering BusConnects, which will take a number of years. We did all the multiple consultations associated with that. We believe we have a network of services that can meet current and future demand. As I said to Deputy Murphy, we are always willing to look back to see if there are things that looked good on paper in terms of delivery but may not be working on the ground.

I accept the point. It is something worth looking at and continuing to look at. Factories, offices and schools appear. People in that demographic then realise that if they can get from place to place on a particular bus, they will not need to be driven to school, football, rugby or whatever it happens to be.

The safety and security of public transport is quite a controversial issue. I will not rehash all the taxi issues raised by Deputy O'Rourke but I certainly agree with much of what he said. There are challenges. I have been on late-night Luas trams -not very late but the last one home or whatever. People need their wits about them. Where does the NTA see that at present and where does it see it going? We have to make sure public transport is not just safe for able-bodied young people but for everybody, including those who are older and may not be as agile, slightly infirm people in wheelchairs, and those with rollators, walking sticks and so on. I am not saying it is unsafe but it is not as safe as people would like it to be. What is the NTA's take on that at present?

Ms Anne Graham

A number of different issues are associated with that. To get a good sense of how people feel about safety on public transport, we monitor that sentiment. We survey regularly how people feel about their safety at the bus stop, on their bus service, on their Luas service and on their DART and rail services. The perception of safety is relatively high overall, even for night-time services. It is slightly lower for women, which we expected. We saw a fall in the higher level of perception of safety, as in people feeling very satisfied with their level of safety. The overall levels between "very" and "good" did not drop significantly, but the higher levels dropped during the Covid period.

We will run that sentiment survey again later this year to see whether the perception of safety has improved as a result of some of the activity we have undertaken with our operators and An Garda Síochána, working very closely together to ensure there is more visibility not only in the city centre but also across the public transport services, particularly at night-time.

On the monitoring of incidents on public transport, does the NTA do that?

Ms Anne Graham

We do, yes.

Has the number of incidents gone up or down?

Ms Anne Graham

It had gone up during the Covid period but has begun to come down again as people have started to travel more.

There is, therefore, passive surveillance where big crowds keep everyone-----

Ms Anne Graham

They tend to keep numbers down, yes. We track that with our operators. We have an anti-social behaviour group that meets regularly. We include An Garda Síochána in that.

I know members have been asked to focus on the metro and the green line but this issue is important.

Ms Anne Graham

Absolutely.

If we want to get footfall back on the services, this must be done. The Chair is getting very agitated at this stage, not that he ever gets agitated.

I want to get some answers to my questions.

I thank Ms Graham and Mr. Creegan for their three hours of engagement this evening.

Ms Anne Graham

That is no problem.

It is quite a late hour, relative speaking, for us. I thank the witnesses for their ongoing commitment to the greater Dublin transport strategy and many other things.

We might come back on the questions asked by Deputy Matthews.

While the NTA representatives are gathering their thoughts, I will put a question. When does the point come where light rail is considered over BusConnects? The document states there could be a transition from BusConnects to light rail. What is it? Is it down to modelling?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

It is down to the predicted level of public passengers. We use a transport model to assess what is likely to happen on a corridor-----

How far forward does the model go?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

We can go to any year but generally we go about 15 or 20 years after opening. If there are only two people on a corridor, a taxi is needed for them. If there are 10,000 people, it is a DART or metro. In between those two, a bus route will serve between 2,000 and 3,000 passengers per direction in an hour. With a figure above that, one goes to light rail. That will take 7,000 passengers an hour. After that, one moves to metro or heavy rail.

Returning to Deputy O'Rourke's point about the argument for light rail that "if you build, they will come", I find rail the easiest form of travelling by a mile. People do not get car sick and are not caught in traffic. I know there are bus lanes. Has the NTA looked at modelling that?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

Our transport models recognise that people prefer heavy rail and light rail to bus transport. We have a factor built in, based on empirical research, on what needs to be applied to reflect the higher likelihood of people using a rail solution.

On the last-mile delivery for goods, because of our remit, our strategy is predominantly focused on passenger and people movement. There are lots of parties involved in the freight side. We think that for the last mile or final section delivery for goods, an emphasis will have to be placed on low-emission use, whether it is cargo bikes or electric vehicles. We believe we need to insert in the demand management scheme I mentioned requirements about what needs to happen for deliveries in certain areas, such as times and modes of deliveries. We envision that we will do a chunk of research and insert its findings in the demand management scheme. That is largely because a very large part of the residual emissions will come from freight vehicles by 2030.

The Deputy asked how we carry out the assessment on parking charges. I know I keep mentioning transport models but we have the tool that can assess what happens if parking charges are changed or applied where they are not in place. We use that assessment tool.

On what goes into the implementation plan, it is largely driven by the national development plan. There are also other factors such as the funding that is available over the six-year period because that is a subset of the NDP. That is the biggest driver of all. We end up replicating a segment of the NDP for it.

We addressed emissions reductions earlier. The Deputy asked when the demand management scheme would be available. We have committed to publishing it two years after the strategy is adopted but we will hold a public consultation in advance of that. I expect that we will have something published in 12 to 15 months.

On the regional bus corridors and the drawing the Deputy picked, he should take it that it is an indicative map. There are a good few corridors that slice off at the end of the graphic. The Deputy will be aware that on the N11 corridor we hope to bring bus priority down as far as the Glen of the Downs and see what happens then.

We accept entirely the need to support e-bikes more.

Ms Anne Graham

There was one final question about the safe routes to school and the barriers to that. That will form part of the assessment of how we are doing on the safe routes to school. There is a significant number of projects that we need to get on with and get delivered. Once we see those delivered, we will review them to see what is stopping the remaining schools from having the frontage of the schools become safe, while recognising that it is not just about the front of school but also about having safe walking and cycling infrastructure to get to the school too.

I have one final comment that aligns with the Chair's love of the train. It is very positive to note that the first of 41 intercity railcars, ICRs, left Korea yesterday to be shipped to Ireland. When these come into operation we will see additional rail services in many parts of the country that need them, so that is good. We also expect to see 95 electric units which are probably in production at this stage. I thank Ms Graham and Mr. Creegan for their time.

What is the difference between statutory and non-statutory? This is important. Dublin is the only are where the plan is statutory. What is the difference and what are the implications? The NTA document is quite high level in one sense but it is also quite specific. BusConnects has impacts on people's homes, so there is a human dimension. Do the local transport plans in any way feed into BusConnects or are they separate?

Ms Anne Graham

The greater Dublin area transport strategy is statutory because it is set out in legislation.

What is the practical import of that?

Ms Anne Graham

The practical one is that we have to follow the legislation in terms of how we produce and publish it and go for public consultation. It is also an important document for the regional spatial and economic strategy of the Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly as well because its plan has to be consistent with the transport strategy and our transport strategy has to be consistent with the regional-----

It is a bit like the national development plan.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes. There is a connection between land-use planning and transport planning.

It is more the process but the delivery of the project will come down to funding and the NDP.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes.

With the non-statutory plans, it is just the process. Are they required to align with the other?

Ms Anne Graham

No.

That is the big difference. Okay.

Ms Anne Graham

We would hope that the local authority would adopt those in their development plans to give them some statutory basis, but there is no requirement on the local authority to do so.

The review process is a recurring issue raised by the groups that have appeared before the committee. The NTA has a particular policy statement in the strategy indicating it will start the review, particularly of light rail, in areas including the south west. Is there a mechanism to identify early on how the initiatives are working and to examine population shifts in the first year or two of the plan? This could show that volumes are at a level that would allow the NTA to move to light rail for some areas, Rather than setting the examination at the end of four years, can we not do some continual assessment?

Ms Anne Graham

We always continually assess. For example, there is a lot to be delivered around BusConnects in the coming years. When we implement BusConnects on the core corridors, that should provide for the demand across most of corridors for a good period.

I think it will be beyond four years, to be honest.

If the NTA finds that there is considerable population growth and demand for transport, could it move to a space where it moves from BusConnects to light rail for certain areas?

Ms Anne Graham

I could not see that happening in the next four years.

Never say never.

Ms Anne Graham

However, one could see it happening beyond that. The level of demand might increase in the next six to 10 years, dependent on developments. Realistically, our focus will be on delivering BusConnects and DART+ in Dublin and, it is hoped, MetroLink, in the future.

It must be the latest Oireachtas committee meeting Ms Graham has attended.

Ms Anne Graham

Yes.

I thank Ms Graham and Mr. Creegan for assisting the committee in this important matter. National Broadband Ireland, NBI, will be before us at tomorrow's meeting for a review of the national broadband plan. I also thank the staff, Mr. Sheridan and Mr. Larkin, for staying this late.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.11 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 28 June 2022.
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