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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications Networks díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 5 May 2021

Challenges Facing Travel Agents and the Aviation Sector: Discussion

The purpose of the second part to our meeting is to discuss the challenges facing travel agents and the aviation sector. On behalf of the committee, I welcome to the meeting Mr. Pat Dawson, CEO, and Mr. Paul Hackett, board member, of the Irish Travel Agents Association. I thank the witnesses for attending the meeting at such short notice.

All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that witnesses comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House or the Convention Centre Dublin, in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will, reluctantly, be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask members participating via Microsoft Teams to confirm their presence on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making their contributions to the meeting.

We have 45 minutes for this discussion and I want to allow as many questions as possible. Mr. Hackett submitted a very good statement, which members will have read. I ask him to summarise in order that we can move to questions as quickly as possible.

Mr. Paul Hackett

I start with some good news. The airline refund process, specifically with regard to Ryanair, has improved. It is not complete and is not working for everybody but compared with where we were when we first addressed this committee in October 2020, the position is much improved. We attribute that in no small part to the coverage the matter received when raised at this committee. For this reason, we thank the Chairman and members for the committee's assistance in helping to resolve this issue.

The travel industry, airports and airlines need clarity as to when we can restart trading with the safe reopening of international travel for our corporate and leisure markets. Hotels in Ireland need to know if they can accept international visitors in 2021. It is important to remember that 75% of income in the hospitality sector comes from the international market. Until such time as full restart plans are announced, we are very keen to support the regional airports of Cork, Shannon and Knock. We call on the Government to be generous in its support for all Irish airports and to support the pillar airlines on which we in Ireland rely. We have heard that Cork airport will be closed for ten weeks from September. To close a key regional airport just when international travel is restarting is not good.

The European Commission launched the digital green certificate on 17 March, almost two months ago. The European Parliament last week voted to approve the certificates and recommended that they be renamed "EU Covid19 certificates". This will be law in June and must be implemented by all member states within six to eight weeks. This is a regulation. It is not a pick-and-mix option, as mentioned by the Minister for Health on RTÉ news last week. It is mass harmonisation legislation, the objective of which is to have travel within the EU reopened safely with all EU member states adopting the certificates. The Government must do this and, in so doing, it must revoke the advice against nonessential international travel.

As referenced earlier this week, on Monday, 3 May, we also need to open up to travel within and outside of the EU. The UK and United States are core markets for Ireland's corporate and leisure travel. The European Commission has announced a plan for Schengen member states to allow travel by fully vaccinated people and we urge the Government to adopt this proposal.

As matters stand, it is illegal to travel to a port or airport for nonessential travel. Those who do so face a fine of €2,000 per person. There are 35 different statutory instruments, implemented since January this year, that control and limit international travel. We need a plan and commitment to unwind these statutory instruments once the vaccination roll-out hits the level of 82% by the end of June, as is the current target. On "The Week in Politics" programme last week, the Taoiseach stated we are an interconnected global island and we cannot seal off the island forever. Taking all of this into account, as well as the improving position in our hospitals, the overall levels of Covid and the positivity around the vaccine roll-out, Ireland needs to implement the EU Covid19 certificates in full and without delay, open up to international visitors and allow Irish citizens the right to travel, at least within the EU to begin with.

We note our concern about the cost of PCR testing. At approximately €100 per person, PCR test costs are too high, antifamily and a cost deterrent for international travel. We are surprised the Government has not adopted the recommendations of Professor Mark Ferguson's report on antigen testing and we note the irony that the HSE is using antigen testing in some facilities.

One important consideration around continued travel restrictions in the Republic is that international travel will recommence from Northern Ireland’s airports some time between midMay and midJune. We have already seen Ryanair open a new base in Belfast City Airport adding ten new routes. Moving assets from the Republic of Ireland is very easy to do for both Aer Lingus and Ryanair. Both airlines have been forced to do so given there is no plan to open Ireland for international travel.

Bookings for international travel are still around 85% down and there will be no recovery until consumer confidence returns. No other sector has had little or no income since March 2020. Irish hotels had some income last summer but travel agents had none. A reduction in income of between 85% and 95% effectively amounts to minus income as our cost base, even with massive reductions, is still substantial. We have met Ministers in the Department of Transport, members of all political parties and countless Deputies and Senators, all of whom have been understanding and sympathetic to our plight, but what pocket do we put that into? Sympathy and understanding are not something we can pass on to our landlords, IT providers, insurance companies and the staff we must retain.

There is a delay of between six and nine months between booking and travel, which means our sector must work for between six and nine months before we count the income generated from advance bookings. So long as there is no income, the travel industry needs to see ongoing support from the Government. We are getting the wage subsidy and the Covid restrictions support scheme, CRSS. The CRSS needs to be repurposed and linked to guidance on international travel. We hope to see extensions of support beyond 30 June. The travel industry needs to see supports continue until we no longer meet the qualifying criteria. The support is needed now ahead of the restart to financially rebuild in order to reduce our dependency on the State. Without ongoing and targeted sector-specific supports, there will be more failures in our industry. There is no need for that to happen. Customers have full protection because all travel agents are licensed and bonded, so additional support will prevent company failures.

Before I finish, we need to bring a matter to the committee's attention. As a result of Covid19 and the impact on the travel industry, some merchant service providers are taking a very hard line and demanding substantial cash deposits from travel agents. This is a direct challenge to the bonding and licensing arrangements the Government has in place for travel agents. Some of the companies involved are associated with our partially Stateowned banks. This is a very serious issue for the sector and the Government must address it given that it has poured millions into supporting the sector during the pandemic, only to have the very future of the sector put at risk by these staggering demands for cash security. I thank the Chairman.

I thank Mr. Hackett. We will now move to questions.

I welcome Mr. Dawson and Mr. Hackett to the meeting. The final paragraph of Mr. Hackett's contribution mentions a very worrying development about merchant service providers. What is happening with merchant service providers? I would be concerned if a bullyboy attitude is being taken towards our travel agents. I hope that will not be tolerated.

Mr. Paul Hackett

I will explain. The merchant service providers are the companies that facilitate merchant retailers, including travel agents like us, to accept credit cards. It is the technical piece whereby we accept the card from the consumer. We are bonded and licensed by the Commission for Aviation Regulation and therefore there is zero risk. There has been some exposure to the merchant service providers for travel that is outside the bonding and licensing arrangement. People who book accommodation only or flight only directly with an airline are not covered under the bonding and protection. However, our sector is fully protected. The merchant service people are effectively requesting a double bonding mechanism whereby we provide them with additional cash security over and above the bonding that we are providing through the Commission for Aviation Regulation.

This is a cash drain. There simply is no risk attachable to what they are talking about. It is really important for the Commission for Aviation Regulation, the Department of Transport and the Department of Finance - because some of these entities are regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland - to look at and get transparency from these companies as to where they assess the risk. We have asked them to quantify this risk and show us where they have been left out of pocket. We do not believe it exists within the bonded sector.

Have they replied to that request from the Irish Travel Agents Association? Is this a new development? If it is a new development the committee should take action.

Mr. Paul Hackett

This has happened intermittently. This is the third time I have seen it with my business. The first time was when we were starting up, which was understandable. The second time they approached us, we explained the bonding mechanism. The commission was involved and all parties were happy about the risk element being controlled. We see this as a reaction to what has happened with Covid whereby chargebacks have effectively landed on their desks but not from within the licensed and bonded travel agent sector. We are saying that we are unique. The Commission for Aviation Regulation licenses us. The bond is in place for our turnover. There is no risk to the merchant service providers. This is double bonding.

It is a very worrying development that an industry that has been hardest hit is getting demands from a merchant service provider in a very unfair manner. I propose that the committee should take action in support of the travel agents. I thank Mr. Hackett for his contribution.

In that regard, Mr. Hackett might give us the specific details of whom we should follow up with. We very much take onboard Senator Buttimer's proposal. We want to support the industry.

Mr. Paul Hackett

I will do so.

Sinn Féin has agreed to facilitate Deputy Cathal Crowe who needs to go to another meeting.

I thank Deputies Ó Murchú and O'Rourke for kindly obliging. I welcome the witnesses. We have heard from representatives of the aviation sector and others in the tourism industry of the need for a lead-in period. The opening statement indicates that there is usually a six- to nine-month period from the time of booking to the time of travelling. Has the lead-in period for summer 2021 already passed by? We are all anticipating some form of resumption. We hope there will be a fairly buoyant domestic tourism market. Representatives of the Irish Travel Agents Association are heavily dependent on international tourism and we all expect a return to international travel in the mid-summer period.

The big concern is that consumers are fickle. At the moment people are clambering over each other to get bookings in west Clare, Westport, Killarney and all over Ireland. However, as soon as it is possible for them to fly to Gran Canaria and other such places, I expect we will see a shift in demand. I am concerned that as Irish consumers move from west of Ireland hotel breaks to international travel, it may create a vacuum. Will we see a return of the North American travellers to fill that vacuum? How are the witnesses strategising for the shoulder season beyond the summer? What lead-in period do they need? Has some of that already passed them by? Other than what they have already mentioned, what supports should the Government and this committee be championing on their behalf?

Mr. Paul Hackett

Effectively nobody is making bookings for summer 2021 at the moment. There is a small improvement in trading, but from being 95% down to being 85% down is not much to brag about. Consumers need confidence and that will come from the vaccine roll-out and the implementation of the digital green certificates. Until that is clear, we will not see consumers booking. Consumers have had so many lost opportunities and cancellations on holidays last year and earlier this year that with the vaccination piece now in sight, they are waiting until they have clarity on that.

As regards the internal market, naturally if we open within the EU, I am sure that Irish hotels and the Irish hospitality sector will dearly welcome internal traffic from other EU states into Ireland. That should be in place. Regarding our booking period, that is the lag-time between when people pay a deposit and when they travel. We do not count the profit until they travel. Having had practically zero trading for nine months, we are looking at another six to nine months of very low levels of trading before we can return to breakeven, let alone profitability.

Mr. Pat Dawson

On several occasions we have spoken to people in Aer Lingus, as a large carrier to and from this country. They tell us it will take two to three months to get 40% or 50% of their fleet in the air. It is not just a switch-on-the-oven situation and away we go. Airlines need to know what will be happening in two or three months' time. If we are slow in getting moving, everybody will be affected, both inbound and outbound., including the airports.

As the Deputy said, home holidays are the thing at the moment. Travel agents are looking at September bookings. We had a nightmare getting refunds and making changes for people. We have advised all our customers to make sure their booking is refundable or changeable. Last year we had the discussion about ghost flights, which was the biggest scandal in the industry in Ireland where aeroplanes flew empty and airlines kept the people's money. Thousands of families were affected by this. We are very much aware of the risk of that recurring. We do not need that uncertainly and the customers do not need it.

I thank the witnesses. I ask them to excuse me as I need to go to another meeting. I am more than happy to engage with them after the meeting also. I thank the Chairman and Sinn Féin for facilitating me.

We now move to the facilitators. Deputy O'Rourke has three to four minutes.

I think Mr. Dawson and Mr. Hackett. There has been news in recent weeks of big companies in the sector closing down. I was sorry to see that and I extend my solidarity to all the companies they work with.

What opportunities do travel agents envisage with the implementation of the digital green certificate? What do prospective customers want to see from that programme? I ask the witnesses to touch on the opportunity that antigen testing might provide. In the past hour we had a very good meeting with Professor Ferguson.

Mr. Pat Dawson

The digital certificate must be uniform and it must be rolled out everywhere at the same time. We do not want to see Ireland again being an outlier. We have been outliers in respect of international travel. Of course, we take the health situation into consideration. However, we want to avoid using traffic lights which may change, leaving people stuck away on holidays, without insurance and what not. It must be uniform.

We see flags with some Government statements regarding the six- or eight-week parameter that is now supposed to happen. We get the sense that Ireland might stretch this out to 12 or 14 weeks. Now is the time to get ready. It is a big task to get ready. This flag has been raised for many months.

It may have been announced by the EU only a couple of days ago and agreed with it. We need action as soon as possible. We do not want the Government deviating and being an outlier. As Mr. Hackett said, it is not a pick and mix. One is either in or out and we fear Ireland may be dodging this and trying to put back inbound and outbound travel, which the country cannot afford.

Mr. Paul Hackett

Our concern is that we are aware that this currently sits with the Department of Health, which has a lot on its plate. There will be technical requirements in order to put this digital certificate in place for all EU countries within the envisaged timeframe. Without casting aspersions on the ability of the Department, our concern rests with the fact that this is another job it has to do. Could that lead to an inadvertent delay? On the requirement relating to the technical piece, where is the Government up to in that regard? This is the clearest, most straightforward proposal in terms of fully vaccinated people, those who have recovered from Covid or individuals who have had PCR testing. It is a clear path that makes harmonisation and simplicity of travel within the EU straightforward and something that is possible for the aviation and airline sectors and the travel industry to adopt. It needs to happen and we need to know when it will happen. When it happens, confidence will follow. Consumers have heard about it but they are hearing mixed messages and they are not sure when it will come into effect. We also have all our advice against international travel, so that has to be wound down to coincide with the digital certificates. We are on a pathway. This is a very different year to 2020 in terms of the vaccination roll-out being in place across Europe.

I think the Chair will agree there is much that mirrors the first hour in terms of the window of opportunity for preparation and making sure that preparation happens.

Yes. I will follow up with Mr. Hackett. First, in terms of travel agents in Ireland, is it just outgoing traffic his organisation deals with or does it deal with people coming in as well?

Mr. Paul Hackett

The ITAA deals mainly with outbound traffic and some domestic traffic. Quite a number of us offered domestic holidays last year through our shops and retail websites. Inbound is looked after by a different organisation, namely, the Irish Tourism Industry Confederation, ITIC.

ITIC is Irish-based as well?

Mr. Paul Hackett

Absolutely. Eoghan O'Mara Walsh and Ruth Andrews have, I think, addressed different parts of the committee at different times.

Clearly, the ITAA has done quite a bit of research into the process by which the digital green pass comes into operation, particularly from the Irish side. Will Mr. Hackett give his view on who will ultimately make the decision here as to whether Ireland adopts the digital green certificate in the generic model that is coming from Europe? Mr. Hackett referred to the Department of Health. Where does it sit in respect of the Departments of Transport, the Taoiseach and Justice? It is clear that Mr. Hackett has looked at this in depth so I ask for his perspective. We will follow up on that. I do not know if Mr. Hackett had an opportunity to listen to Professor Ferguson's presentation in the first session.

Mr. Paul Hackett

Unfortunately not.

We are looking at writing to get a pilot programme up and running, particularly in respect of antigen testing, which would link into the digital green pass coming on stream in a European context. The pilot programme would maybe have an air travel route to the UK, which would enable the logistics to be set up to have an operation in place when the digital green pass is introduced. What does Mr. Hackett believe is the mechanism to get this signed off at domestic level? It is a hard question but a key one.

Mr. Paul Hackett

Our understanding is that the digital green cards sit with the Department of Health. It is also our understanding that the Department of the Taoiseach has oversight of this area. There has been reference to the e-commerce piece being involved with one of the Ministers of State. That is where it stands. Where we need the certainty is-----

Does the Department of Transport have a role in this?

Mr. Paul Hackett

It will have a role. It is the line Department that all the airports, airlines and the travel sector engage with. It should be closely involved. This should be something in respect of which the Department can bring its intelligence to play.

In terms of the process by which the digital green certificate is being examined at Government level, is the heavy lifting being done by the Department of Health?

Mr. Paul Hackett

That is our understanding.

I cut Mr. Hackett off at the pass there. Will he conclude what he was saying on the key point for him?

Mr. Paul Hackett

There are some key points in terms of communication. I do not think the communication from different spokespeople has been clear on this. This is an EU regulation. It is not an opt-in, opt-out clause. It is not pick and mix. These digital green certificates have been approved by the European Commission and were passed last week by the European Parliament. They are clear as to what they do and their objective is to have mass harmonisation in Europe subject to the public health guidance around vaccination, recovery from Covid and PCR testing. This is not something we should be afraid of; it is our certificate to freedom in terms of inbound and outbound travel in this country. The key points are around the clarity of communication, clarity on when this will be implemented and for consumers to know when this will happen and what it means. Is it-----

As far as Mr. Hackett is concerned, it has legal status in a European context-----

Mr. Paul Hackett

Yes.

-----which all the individual countries have signed up to. What-----

Mr. Paul Hackett

As a regulation, there is no option for Ireland to veto this or opt out.

What flexibility do the Government and the authorities here have in respect of the implementation of the digital green certificate? Is there any?

Mr. Paul Hackett

Our understanding is that there is a time lag between when it is passed in Europe and when it is implemented here. Our other concern rests with the technical ability to deliver this in our country.

What is Mr. Hackett's understanding in terms of the timescale that must be implemented?

Mr. Paul Hackett

Six weeks is our understanding.

From what date?

Mr. Paul Hackett

The start of June or mid-June. There is talk that 8 June is when it will be passed because there is still quite a bit of work to be done.

Will Mr. Hackett elaborate on his concerns regarding the technical capability to roll it out? We are still six weeks from the middle of June. Is there time to overcome that?

Mr. Paul Hackett

We are a very technically creative island, with some of the best tech companies operating in our economy. We should engage with these companies to ensure that we have the technical ability to do it. We cannot have various bits of paper. This will be a QR code-type scenario. We need it to be fast, efficient and really robust so the public health authorities are confident in how it is being implemented. There is quite an amount of work to be done. That needs to be happening and hopefully it is happening behind the scenes.

Mr. Pat Dawson

Our worry is there is nobody taking ownership of this. Everyone is involved but nobody is involved. We need to know who is carrying this ball to get the job done. That is why we are concerned. We do not know who the go-to Minister or other person in the Government is.

Does Mr. Dawson believe the Department of Health is the reluctant carrier of the ball at the moment?

Mr. Pat Dawson

On form, yes, I think it is. This is something we should be proud of. We should see it as good news, just as the vaccination is good news. We know from dealing with this situation over the past 12 months that there are brakes being put on this somewhere. We do not know who to go to. I think the Chairman probably spots that, as well.

Does Mr. Hackett have concluding comments before we move to the next speaker?

Mr. Paul Hackett

No.

We will follow up on the matters raised at our two sessions. We will write to various people in order to get a sense of clarity and to get a pilot programme up and running in order that there will be action. We see the key gateway in getting a roll-out and the digital green certificate up and running. We need a pilot programme and antigen testing, and these need to be linked to a timeframe in the context of the roll-out.

Six weeks from the middle of June brings us up to the end of July. That is too late.

That is way too late. You are right, Chairman.

It is too late. There is urgency and we want to work proactively with all Departments to get a pilot programme up and running, with the ultimate objective of getting the digital green certificate functioning at a European level that is safe from a public health perspective and provides public safety for all passengers and the Irish public as well.

I thank Mr. Dawson and Mr. Hackett. In fairness, they have been very comprehensive in setting out what they require. What Professor Ferguson spoke about and the possibility of a pilot programme could provide us with a roadmap for aviation, combined with the digital green certificate but there is a necessity for us to follow up to ensure that we have the capacity at both levels. There is no point in us being willing to do something and then not being able to deliver on it. We have had IT issues before. I accept what has been said, that it is unacceptable in such a technically proficient State as this.

I have heard anecdotally that the Ryanair refund situation has improved. What are the issues that still remain? Is it just the numbers or do we still have an issue with group refunds? I accept what has been said about double bonding and banks. That is something we have to follow up.

The witnesses have asked that the CRSS would be repurposed and connected to travel guidance. That makes sense. What other sector-specific ask do the witnesses have? I know that is still a particular issue with a number of travel agents to whom I have spoken, who are very glad that the witnesses are here today, but they need something that is industry-specific to ensure that we get to the other end of this pandemic.

Mr. Pat Dawson

We are grateful for the supports we have seen so far for salaries and wages. They have been very helpful. It should be remembered that we only qualified at level 5 for the CRSS. It might have been 40% of last year. When non-essential retail reopens, that is when we are supposed to fall out of the CRSS. As I said to the Department at a meeting that we had a couple of weeks ago, there is no doubt that without the CRSS 50 travel agencies would have failed. There is no question about that. That was a saviour and if it is not reinstated or kept going until the end of the year we will have similar collapses to that of JWT last week.

The witnesses have won the argument in this committee, so it is a matter of what other requirements they have. We probably need some detail in that regard that we can chase up because we are probably in the final discussions on what supports will be offered into the future for all sectors. Travel agents need to be considered as part of that conversation.

Mr. Paul Hackett

What we could do is share with the committee the documentation that we presented to the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, and to the Department of Transport. We are also in discussions with them again this week on the possibility of some additional cash flow funding which will overcome that time lag between bookings and profitability and the industry returning because, as Mr. Dawson says, the supports have prevented collapse. While the collapse last week was very unfortunate, considering this sector has had no income it is a sign of its resilience and strength to have so few collapses, but that is contingent on the supports continuing.

I appreciate that. Could I get a quick response to the question on where we are with the outstanding refunds from Ryanair and whether there is still a problem with group bookings?

Mr. Paul Hackett

This came from the conflict that exists between two pieces of EU legislation, Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 and the package travel directive, PTD. The numbers are really the issue and the time delay in getting this sorted out. Some agents are still having issues with Ryanair but for the most part Ryanair has processes in place. That is not ideal in terms of how it works for the travel industry, but Ryanair has processes in place and, for the most part, they are working. It is an ongoing process and it has improved no end since October. It is still far from ideal, but we are getting there, and consumers are getting their refunds, albeit more slowly.

Go raibh maith agat, Mr. Hackett.

I confirm that I am in the Leinster House complex. I thank Mr. Dawson and Mr. Hackett for their presentation to the committee. I have an observation to make on what has been going on here in recent months that has very much damaged the entire industry - travel agents, international travel, aviation and all of the jobs in tourism that stem from that. I refer to the attitude taken by some to international travel. Something I hear from a lot of people working in tourism in Ireland is that they are very worried about the current level of public confidence in international travel. That is something I have spoken about in this committee previously and it is an issue that the Oireachtas as a whole needs to address. Thankfully, we are heading for a situation whereby at the end of June 80% of the Irish population are expected to receive either their first dose or to be fully vaccinated. That should very much put us on a springboard to allow people to start international travel for inbound travellers into Ireland, which is obviously fantastic for hotels in this country, and for travel in general but also to allow Irish citizens to travel abroad.

The witnesses have identified two very significant issues in their contributions today and I wish to pick up on them. One is the fact that Ireland was part of the common travel area with the United Kingdom, in the sense that we had an existing arrangement prior to Brexit and that we are not part of the Schengen Agreement, which is ploughing ahead with its own plans for international travel. I want to utilise my time in the committee today to say, as a Fianna Fáil Deputy and its spokesperson on transport, how important it is that we would follow suit with the Schengen plan and work with the countries in the Schengen area to allow Irish travellers to go to the United States once we have reached a satisfactory level of vaccination of the population. We are getting there very quickly. There is no doubt that we are making progress. We all know it was difficult and slow to start but, thankfully, it is now progressing. Reopening the US-Ireland travel channel is incredibly important for the travel industry. To put it into perspective, I spoke to one hotelier yesterday who told me that 65% of his bookings in a luxury 5 star hotel on the west coast comprised travellers coming into Ireland from the United States, and 75% of his revenue was as a result of bookings from the United States. That just shows the level of importance it has for the economy. If we want people coming in, we need to let people go out as well, which is important. I know a lot of people give out that it is money exiting the economy, but travel agents in Ireland are doing well out of it and domestic airlines do well from international travel and business as well as people working in Irish airports. That must all be stated.

The Chairman asked a question earlier about where the calls need to go. It is obvious that NPHET must be involved. From my reading of the situation, NPHET is the one causing the difficulties for the witnesses. In fairness, I think at a ministerial level many of the Departments want to see travel open up again. I heard off the record from many different Ministers and people working in Departments that they want to see antigen testing being put in place and they want to see movement in that regard following on from the academic reports that have been done, but the issue seems to be NPHET. That is my reading of the situation. To do some justice to everybody who has come before the committee, perhaps it is time for us to look for NPHET to come before the committee again. It obliged us before and it is high time that we would bring it back again. I will ask one question and finish up then.

We have made the decision to invite NPHET.

That is great. How important is United States travel to travel agents in Ireland?

Mr. Pat Dawson

It is absolutely huge. The business section of our business is worth €500 million a year and the vast majority of that involves long-haul travel to the United States. I see Aer Lingus has pulled some routes from the United States already. US visitors do at least one if not two years planning in advance so this summer is now a write-off for American visitors.

What we do now will affect next year for tourists. We must be seen to move and get our act together quickly to get tourists back because Americans can go to plenty of other countries. They do not necessarily need connections in Ireland but many of them come here to see this green country, and Irish and American people get on well together. The problem is that this season is lost and we must now work on the next season. In terms of inbound and outbound tourism, not alone do we send many hundreds of thousands of people on city breaks to San Francisco, Florida, New York and Las Vegas, etc., but there have also been increased flights out of Ireland over the last number of years with American carriers and Aer Lingus. There has been growth but we will lose it because everyone is running after the business so we must not be left behind. Mr. Hackett would like to add to my comments.

Mr. Paul Hackett

Deputy O'Connor is correct. The Schengen proposal that was announced on Monday is the way for us to open up to the UK and the US, which is vital. Whenever we speak, even though the ITAA is involved in outbound activity, we would always be focused as well on our inbound counterparts and the domestic travel industry, which is hugely important in this country.

As the Deputy quite rightly said, 75% of the income for the hotel and hospitality business in Ireland comes from the international market. One cannot have outbound without inbound. The ITAA and ITIC work in hand in glove. We support the airlines because the airlines and the airports need traffic both ways. No route is going to be a single directional route and traffic must go both ways in order for it to be viable so our connectivity is critically important. It was great to hear An Taoiseach the other day recognise that we are a global connected island. We have got to get back to that.

As the Deputy quite rightly said, international travel has been very unfairly demonised when other things are still sorely missing such as the community transmission numbers, and test and trace stack up to that. A lot of the time international travel has been a very convenient distraction and that is where the demonisation has come from. We have proposals on the table for the digital green certificate, and the Schengen area for the UK and the US. Our proposals need to be acted on.

Mr. Pat Dawson

We also need to extend. The world is not built around Dublin as I know and we all know. The airports like Shannon Airport need to be heavily assisted with transatlantic travel as there is no travel there at the moment. Cork and Knock airports also really need big assistance. Dublin Airport is doing a wonderful job and had 32 million passengers so its recovery will be quicker.

Mr. Dawson, I think, raised the important point that we need to look at the digital green certificate in a more positive way.

Mr. Pat Dawson

Yes.

We must be supportive of the certificate and safe travel without compromising anyone's support of strong public health policy. They are both things that are worthy of support. The digital green certificate is needed for the aviation sector, and that is unequivocal. I have one question because time is our enemy. Page 2 of the ITAA statement reads: "There are 35 different Statutory Instruments, implemented since January 2021". Why so many?

Mr. Paul Hackett

That is a very good question. Over 200 statutory instruments have been enacted this year alone and, as we all know, they do not require a vote. If anything, it is evidence as to how controlled and limited international travel is now. We are where we are and we must move on. What we need is a plan to have these unwound. We need a date on which it will no longer be illegal to travel to an airport or port and no longer subject to a €2,000 fine now that we have inter-county travel resuming next week. The reality is they have all been enacted under the Health Acts. Unfortunately, I have a page with the list, which I could share with the committee, and it does not make for pleasant reading. Ireland is an outlier due to how we have managed international travel. We are hearing that again because we had the French ambassador on the radio this morning and the Italian ambassador was on the radio last week. We are losing friends in Europe and beyond over the list.

The list may not make good reading but it is vital reading and I ask Mr. Hackett to send his list to the committee.

Mr. Paul Hackett

The list is on a Government website, statutoryinstruments.ie.

As it is 2.25 p.m. I will leave it there in the interests of allowing other members to speak. I thank the witnesses. It is depressing how often we see each other and I think they understand why I have said that.

Mr. Pat Dawson

We do.

I will be brief because most of the territory has been covered. I welcome our guests and thank them for their interesting and informative contributions. We have had them here on a number of occasions. I hope they will agree that the committee has listened and supported their case. I am very much in favour of reopening the economy. To do so we must reopen airports and allow our people to travel out and others to come in.

I raised the issue of a digital green certificate with the Taoiseach some months ago. At that stage, the Government had set its face against a digital green certificate. I firmly believe that there should be a vaccination dividend and if somebody is fully vaccinated he or she should be allowed the freedom to move around. The analogy I would draw is that somebody who refuses to take a vaccination damages our prospects of recovering from the pandemic. Therefore, the people who are fully vaccinated should be able to travel in a safe way. We, as a country, were reluctant and hesitant about using a digital green certificate. The only reason Ireland is in it is because we were forced into it by the EU. I fear that the Irish Government will drag its heels when it comes to implementation. I ask the witnesses to forward to us the statements they issued to the Government and the Department of Transport on this matter so that we can be aware of what we need to push. I certainly will push for advancing the digital green certificate, in line with other European Union countries, as quickly as possible.

We certainly must be cognisant of the Schengen Agreement and be on a level playing pitch. There is no doubt that inward traffic is required to reboot the industry and, in particular, get the people who work at our airports back into meaningful employment and start to rebuild so much that we have lost over the last two years.

Do Mr. Hackett and Mr. Dawson view the digital green certificate pass as the single most important element to getting the aviation industry, and by extension the economy, reopened in Ireland?

Mr. Pat Dawson

I do. It is the only show in town and it will get us across the line. It is going to save the 400,000 jobs, both inbound and outbound, at the airports. I refer to our pilots and to all of the people who work around the different airports. The certificate is the only thing that is going to get us out of this mess and that is why it is nearly but not quite as urgent as vaccination. We cannot play ducks and drakes with the certificate. We must get somebody in the Government to take charge of the certificate and we need this committee to push for it, and check where we are. A couple of weeks have elapsed and there are another six or eight weeks so how long does this thing take? We have the technology in this country so let them get it done quickly.

I thank the gentlemen for their presentations this morning. My heart goes out to the members of the ITAA. We have seen one of the biggest travel agents go and it was synonymous with Irish travel for many years. Having lost a business many years ago, I can say that it was my fault. For those who are going out of business in the travel industry at the moment, it is not their fault and the situation is most unfortunate.

There is one theme that is the elephant in the room. The Department of Health is running everything and the master of the witnesses' organisation is the Department of Transport. I am concerned that the Department of Health has too many tentacles and that one cannot keep all the balls in the air without dropping some. So, I am interested in hearing what the witnesses have to say about the matter.

Yesterday, at the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence, the Minister for Foreign Affairs was very positive in his support for trying to get the economy back running as normal as possible.

With that in mind, I note the witnesses constantly referenced the IT sector. Are they aware of the development of a mobile app that will allow people to present their phone at the airport to show that they have been vaccinated or had the virus or both, or have not been vaccinated, as the case may be, in order to facilitate travel? We have to get people back in the air. There are airline pilots who are desperately trying to keep their licence up to date. There are travel agents struggling to keep their business going. I learned today that there will be a sort of six to nine month lag before the small few travel agents that will still be in business will start to see profits coming back in.

Do the witnesses see the same elephant in the room that I see? I ask them to also address the mobile app. Those are the two issues of concern to me.

Mr. Paul Hackett

If I may deal with the issue of the mobile app first, I have heard that IBM and Salesforce have been tasked with developing the technology to implement the digital green certificates. However, as Mr. Dawson stated, it is unclear who is the project manager of this issue and that is what we need to have. I agree with the Senator. The focus of the Department of Health at the moment must be, quite rightly, on the vaccine roll-out. The hospital numbers seem to be under control and case numbers are where they are but, in broad terms, the vaccine roll-out is its absolute focus.

Who contracted IBM and Salesforce to develop that app? Is the contract with the Department of Health? Did Mr. Hackett hear of the app anecdotally?

Mr. Paul Hackett

I heard on the RTÉ news this week that the contract is in place or being signed. It would be great to know that this is in hand, there is a timeline, the app will be delivered according to that particular timeline and it will be a QR code. It is not for us as an association to dictate which Departments are best placed to implement tasks but-----

We will follow up on that.

Mr. Paul Hackett

-----as business people - CEOs or whatever - none of us can run our businesses on our own. One has a board, a senior management team and a great complement of staff. One needs to spread the load, get the work done and meet the guidelines and deadlines that are in place.

If I may interject, one of the things that concerns me is that this green certificate we are speaking about will require a database which will underpin the data flowing into it. I have a niece in Galway who has been called eight times to be vaccinated. She is a front-line worker and is actually full vaccinated. This week she got an eighth phone call inviting her to come in to be vaccinated. If that is the current state of knowledge among those who manage the vaccination process, I do not see how this green certificate can work under any circumstances.

We will think a little more optimistically than that. I note the Senator's reservations. I invite Mr. Hackett and Mr. Dawson to offer concluding remarks, maybe in a positive light, in terms of what should be done now. I believe the capacity is there and we have a timeframe but it needs to get under way immediately. In summary, what are their principal asks of the committee and the Government in terms of the digital green certificate being developed?

Mr. Paul Hackett

We are optimistic. That is an amazing thing to say as a representative of a business and an industry that has gone 14 months with zero trading. However, we are in a different place now. The vaccine roll-out is happening and the numbers are moving. We are not unduly critical of the Department of Health in that regard. We have the digital green certificate, which is this EU-wide result that will open airports, put pilots back in the air and get airport staff back working. The hospitality sector, including hotel staff, restaurants, cafés and bars, are relying on it.

We have to think of Ireland as a global interconnected island. We have amazing connectivity and an amazing hospitality industry. We have to get back our welcome to outside visitors and get them in. The digital green certificate has to be seen as something that is respectful of public health and is the solution in that regard. It is not a passport; it is a certificate. It covers one's vaccination status. If one has not been vaccinated, one needs a PCR test. If one does not wish to do that and has recovered from Covid, that is it. It is very fair. It is not some demonised additional passport or control mechanism; it is a route to freedom in terms of international travel into and out of this island to restore us to some sort of economic sensibility.

Mr. Pat Dawson

The Irish Travel Agents Association will speak to the Department of Transport tomorrow. We will enlighten it further regarding where we are at with the digital certificate and the urgency the committee has put on the matter. We recognise from the contributions of all the members that the committee needs urgency on this issue. It needs to happen tomorrow. With the support of the committee and all the people of this country, we will get back flying, but we need fast help from the Government.

In summary, I ask Mr. Hackett to send information to the committee on the credit card companies with which there are difficulties, as well as the ITAA's correspondence with various Departments. The committee will be following up with the Department of Transport and other Departments, including the Department of Health, to fast forward the roll-out of a pilot programme and the piece around antigen testing to feed in with the digital green certificate and get it up and running as quickly as possible. If there is a six-month delay or time lag such that it is not implemented until 1 August, we all agree that would be too late.

Does Senator Buttimer wish to come back in briefly?

As regards the merchant service providers, how widespread is the issue?

Mr. Pat Dawson

It is widespread. The Senator would not believe the way these companies act. They have no manners as such. I know of small travel agencies that were told that unless they sent €40,000 or €30,000 to the merchant service provider within two weeks, they would be cut off. These companies have no manners or ethics whatsoever and they will shut businesses down. It is a widespread issue but it comes out of the blue. It is not flagged in advance. The companies just say this is the rule and that the businesses can take it or leave it. They do not care who they close down. The Central Bank and the other agencies that regulate these companies really need to get involved. I hope the committee will be able to assist in that regard.

The committee will follow up on the specific proposal made by Senator Buttimer but in order to do so we need details of exactly which merchant service providers are causing an issue. It may be the case that some of them are operating in a very fair way. There is no doubt that it is not a homogenous group. Is the Senator happy for us to conclude on that point?

Yes. I thank the Chairman.

I thank the witnesses for attending and engaging with the committee at such short notice. The meeting is now adjourned. The next meeting of the joint committee will be a private virtual meeting at 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 11 May. I thank all present. We will all work together in an optimistic way.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.38 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 11 May 2021.
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