I understand the President has been good enough to attend for the purpose of answering two questions of which notice has been given to him, though they do not appear on the Agenda, by Senator Moore.
REVENUE COMMISSIONERS.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
I should like to ask the President if he can give us the names of the proposed Revenue Commissioners, and also is it a fact that a British Civil Servant, who did not opt for service in Irish Free State prior to 6th December, 1922, has been invited to accept an appointment on the Board, and if this is to be a precedent?
As soon as the Order has received the approval of both Houses the personnel of the Revenue Board will be announced, and I am not at present prepared to anticipate that announcement. I must point out that the Order merely creates machinery for the administration of revenue. I may, however, say that the Government has in mind for appointment as Commissioners three Civil Servants who are highly experienced in Revenue matters, and who, in the opinion of the Government, are the best qualified officers available for appointment. Two of the Commissioners proposed have served in London, one in the Inland Revenue Department, and one in the Customs and Excise Department. In neither case did opting for the Free State arise, as there was no vacancy in their grade in the Free State requiring to be filled. I am advised that these officers hold better qualifications for appointment than any others in the Free State.
The only question that is not answered is, is it to be a precedent that those who have not opted within the prescribed period can be brought into the Irish Free State?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
You see it cannot be a precedent if your previous assumption does not apply to the case.
But bringing over might be a precedent, although this does not exactly apply. This is a matter in which Civil Servants are very keenly interested, and the Civil Service is very intensely interested in it.
Is there not a limit as to the extent to which a Senator is allowed to wander in the matter of questions?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
I think he should be kept within very strict limits. What I was pointing out to Senator Moore is that the President has already by anticipation answered this question, because he has pointed out that this consideration about these gentlemen opting did not arise, and could not have arisen having regard to the position they occupied. Consequently there is no possibility of its becoming a precedent.
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
I think as the Minister for Home Affairs is here we will take this Revenue Commissioners Order, 1923. If you remember that was on a former occasion fully discussed, but the question was reserved as to whether the names of the gentlemen who were going to be the Commissioners would be announced. That has been dealt with now by the President. I do not know whether any Senator wishes to speak on that. The question now is that the Seanad approves of this Order.
I would like to say a word or two on the subject. We discussed this question the other day, and we discussed it not very intelligently, because the notice was very short and we did not exactly know what the situation was. We agreed to one of those resolutions, but we held up the other one for the purpose of getting some further information. We have heard an announcement from the President as to who those very important officials are to be. And as I understand his statement I think we have every reason to believe, and to be satisfied, that the Government will succeed in obtaining the services of the best men available. That apparently is the situation, and that certainly is very satisfactory to the Seanad. But we must remember that in agreeing to this resolution we are now setting up one of the most important administrative portions of our machinery, and that those Commissioners of Revenue, or whatever they are going to be called, touch every single tax-payer of this country in his tenderest point. These are the gentlemen who will have control, I understand, of the taxation of the country, both revenue and excise. At all events, they will be the authorities in the matter of assessments and so forth as far as the taxpayers are concerned.
What I would like to be quite clear about is—is there to be any appeal to anybody from the decisions of those gentlemen? And, if so, what is the nature of that appeal to be? And is the appeal to be so arranged that it will be within the reach of the ordinary citizen? Because we know quite well in these matters of administration the ordinary citizen knows nothing whatever about his rights. He is busily engaged in the ordinary business of life, and he has not time very often to inquire into the minutiae of office, nor has he time to take note of dates and things of that sort. Therefore, we are asked to pass this Order or Warrant, or whatever it may be called. But we do not quite understand it. We do not understand how far it goes and what exactly it means. It is based, I take it, upon English practice and English arrangements. I have listened to very many Budget speeches and taken part in discussions on the framing of Budgets on the other side, and I have always thought that, however good their machinery was, it was not certainly applicable to Ireland; and that, whatever arrangements were made for the collection of taxes on the other side, they are not the sort of arrangements that would be agreed to readily if this country had a Government of its own. What I would suggest to the Ministry is this: could they not have some sort of enquiry into the whole system of the collection of taxes in this country? and could they not see whether in some respects the machinery could not be simplified or could not be amended so as to enable the taxpayer in this country to understand more clearly what his liabilities were? and also whether the claims upon him could not be made more in accordance with the fiscal or financial or commercial or agricultural system of this country? I hope that if we agree to this Resolution we are not stereotyping the system that has prevailed with us so far. We are anxious to assist the President and his Government in agreeing to this Warrant of theirs, and I hope that they will bear the question seriously in mind and investigate the entire system of taxation in this country, with a view to making the operation of the taxing machinery more in accordance with the feelings and interests of this country.
With regard to the question of appeal, I should like to be given some information, and possibly the President may be able to give it. I do not want in any way to hamper him or the Government in the carrying out of the administration in this respect. I do welcome one proposal they make, that is to amalgamate the two Commissions, as thereby we shall have a fewer number of officials, and our administration will be less expensive. No matter what Government you have, and no matter what party they belong to, the foundation of that Government is their fiscal policy. I have often thought that the entire fiscal administration of this country should be reorganised, amended and improved, and made more in accordance with Irish feelings and needs. I hope the President, if we agree to give him his Warrant to-day, will give us some undertaking that this matter will not escape his attention, and will receive the serious and prompt attention of the Government he represents.
We adjourned the consideration of this Order until to-day because some of us could not understand it. We did not really know the inward meaning of it, and it shows us, I think, where, in matters coming before the Seanad, we somehow or other want somebody to look into them before they are considered, because placed in our hands as it was, merely allowed us time to read the order and the references in it to a large number of Acts. It was totally impossible for any of us to see what was really meant. Now I have had time to look into it since. As far as one can judge there are only two or three things that alter the practice, and alter it considerably from what it has been in the past. I take it for granted that all the whereases on the first page refers to the various Acts that are continued, as for instance in the Income Tax Act of 1918, Sections 57 and 58, as to the General Commissioners, and 67 as to the Special Commissioners, will apply, and that other persons who, according to that Act, may be appointed to assist and act with the Commissioners of Inland Revenue as Special Commissioners, will also apply the powers given to the Special Commissioners of Income Tax by that, making them the persons to whom people who are aggrieved as regards income tax can appeal, and the power is given to associate certain other individuals with them. The Supervisor, or whoever the leading official of the Income Tax Department is, makes the claim on the individual. It is through these Special Commissioners that the individual can appeal as against that, and there have been several cases, I believe, where the Commissioners acting as a Court of Appeal have given a decision against which the taxing authorities have appealed, and have gone to the High Courts.
Now I am not at all sure, and I doubt if any of us reading this could be clear that all those privileges which are given to the taxpayer by the special Income Tax Act of 1918, are given to them as clearly in this country when this Order is passed. Again, when we come to the Revenue Commissioners, this is under Clause 7, you will see that they are removable only by the Executive Council. Now, the Commissioners in Great Britain, who have acted hitherto for the United Kingdom, are appointed, I believe, under the authority of the King's pleasure, and they can only be dismissed for some breach of their duty. If they are placed under the control of the Executive Council, and if you follow into Part 3, there are various sections of the Inland Revenue Act of 1890 which do not apply to the Revenue Commissioners. I believe, as far as one can see from reading it, that that practically amounts to making the Revenue Commissioners officers who practically go in and out of office with the Government of the day. I may be wrong, but as far as one can read it it seems to be so, and I doubt if this is a wise provision that officers of that high standing dealing with these matters should have this disability applied to them. Of course, if they have under the Order which we are now asked to pass just as good a standing as they have in the United Kingdom, which means that when appointed at the pleasure of the King only a breach of duty can put them out, then I am answered. But as far as I can read this Act their status is entirely altered.
The point I said something on the last day about, that is, as to two or three Commissioners is, I believe, a technical thing, and there is not a great deal in it. I think the answer that was given by the Minister that day, that that signature would only be given on the advice of his departmental officers, was quite correct, and I really do not think there is very much in it. But as to the question of the standing of these Commissioners, there is another point, which, I think, probably arises from the fact that we have really no Treasury Department in Southern Ireland at present, because this Order takes the Commissioners from under the control of the Treasury and hands them over entirely to the Finance Minister. Now, that is a very considerable departure, but I believe it may be necessary, because there is not a properly constituted Treasury or Treasury Commissioners at present in Southern Ireland.
The Free State, not Southern Ireland.
Quite right, the Free State. If the present regulations of placing these Commissioners entirely at the disposal of the Finance Minister is a necessity because of the present condition of affairs in the Free State, then one could understand it, but it is not accompanied by any undertaking that they will be put back under the Treasury if the Treasury is established. There is no mention of any sort in this that we are ever going to have a Treasury and Treasury officials, so that really to my mind this Order requires a discussion, which I doubt very much it can be given unless all these questions are so simple, that I may be wrong in putting them, and that the answers are quite simple. It seems to me a more complicated thing than we could possibly pass after a few questions had been asked. I do not know whether I am right or wrong, but if we had some Committee which could have gone into all these technical matters in the Order and quietly discussed them, and then gave their opinion to the Seanad, it would have been far more easily dealt with than by having the Order sent down, which certainly on the face of it has all these defects, and makes it harder for us to make up our minds in a hurry.
I wish also to deal with the subject that Senator Jameson has dealt with. I have no fault to find with the gentlemen I have heard named; neither have I any fault to find with the Finance Minister, but I think it is a mistake for the Finance Minister to take all the responsibility that he will have to take with regard to the direction of these Commissioners. It is very possible that he might find himself in very needy circumstances, and it is also possible that he would have to give stringent orders to his Commissioners to turn on their big guns and get in a large amount of taxes. I myself and some others here know that business at present is in a very rickety condition in this country, and never in my experience, which I am sorry to say extends over a very long time, have I known business to be in as bad a state as it is at the present moment in this country, and particularly in the twentysix counties. Wholesale merchants are not forcing the collection of their accounts, for the simple reason that if they did so it would mean bankruptcy. We are holding back, but certainly if the Minister for Finance and his Commissioners are going to stampede this country for taxation it will be a very serious matter for the country. I understand that in a large number of counties income tax is due for the past three years. Now, I do not think that any person in business in this country to-day could possibly afford to pay any more than one year's tax. I think that to collect three years', or anything approaching three years', would mean general bankruptcy in the country, a condition of things, I assume, that neither the Minister himself nor his Commissioners, nor this Seanad want brought about. The ordinary course, I believe, under the British Statute was that the British Treasury appointed those Commissioners. They were not appointed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer; they were appointed or they were suspended by the British Treasury, by the British Parliament. It is proposed to take the appointment of those Commissioners from the Executive Council, which is the substitute we have for an Irish Treasury, to vest the appointment of those Commissioners in the Minister for Finance. Nobody objects to the Minister for Finance at the moment, but we will not always have the same Minister for Finance, and we do not know who we may have. I do not think myself that it is a prudent thing that he should take all the responsibility that this duty puts upon him of appointing or directing, nominating or suspending these Commissioners. I think that this duty ought to rest on a broader basis, and the broader the basis the sounder the edi- . It ought to rest on the Executive Council of the Free State.
Another point raised by Senator Jameson is very important: that when the income tax and other taxes were assessed in Ireland, and when any tax-payer had cause to dissent from the amount of the assessment, he had the option of an appeal. That appeal was heard by Commissioners known as Special Commissioners, men of the very highest standing in the service. Usually they were Secretaries of the Ministry. They were drawn not from the lower grade of the Civil Service, but from the very highest, and we all know that in hearing cases these men acted in a most humane manner. In some instances the British Treasury absolutely appealed against their decisions. That is the type of men we want, who will hold the balance evenly between the taxpayer and the Treasury. Therefore, before we let this Order go through, I think we ought to have a very full and a very satisfactory explanation from the Minister for Finance.
I am inclined to agree with the last speaker that the appointment, and also the removal, of these very important officials should be carefully safeguarded and if the removal is vested in the Executive Council so also should the appointment, but I am not prepared to go further in the matter of limiting the powers of the Finance Minister. It has been suggested that we might set up a body somewhat analogous to the British Treasury. The British Treasury is a thing which has evolved out of very old traditions and out of very old and somewhat out-worn conditions, and I do not believe if they had a clean slate to-morrow in England they would necessarily re-appoint it in its exact present form. I think there is a great danger and we are missing a great opportunity when we have got a clean slate if we do not start on the most business-like and economical basis. I do not know if many members of the Seanad have had experience of the Treasury, but I have suffered under it on many occasions and I cannot say that in all respects their methods are those which we could usefully, or with economy, copy. As regards the appeal, I would ask the Minister who replies to reassure the Seanad on that point. I understand that the existing law, so far as the appeal is concerned, remains, and I understand also in the present case that there is an appeal from the judgment of these Revenue Commissioners, in the form of Special Commissioners of Income Tax, to the County Courts, but no doubt the Minister for Finance will inform us on that point.
I take the last point that has been mentioned first. There is no restriction of any of the powers or authority or rights of taxpayers interfered with by this Order. We are simply setting up machinery to enable the taxpayers to benefit by any such powers or appeals that they would have had in the present instance if the Saorstát had not been brought into existence. In other words, it may be taken that the rights and privileges and appeals which hitherto prevailed, when the collection of taxation was under the British Government, are kept for the taxpayers if this Order should be passed. The machinery for appeals is not affected in the least by the Order. Until the Oireachtas otherwise determines we will have Special Commissioners and the taxpayer will continue to have all the rights of appeal to the Courts, including the right to appeal to the County Court. The Commissioners in England are appointed under a Royal Warrant on the nomination of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; that is my information. In this case this particular Order was considered and passed by the Executive Council. The Executive Council was satisfied that the appointment should be made in the manner set out in the Order and it would have been for them, I think, in the first instance, should there have been any misgivings as regards future appointments by the Minister for Finance, to have taken them into consideration. I would like to point out to the Seanad in considering this Order, that having been passed by the Executive Council it could only be changed by the Executive Council. That is to say, it is not open to amendment. It was not open to amendment in the Dáil and it would be nullified if amended and if it had not been so passed by the Executive Council.
Now the appeal, as I have stated, lies to the Commissioners of Income Tax. It is, I am sure, appreciated that it would be rather difficult to meet one point that was raised by a Senator who complained that the fiscal system as adopted and practised in England does not suit this country. I think it will be scarcely possible for anyone living in the present generation to see the day when a Minister for Finance will adopt a fiscal system which will appeal to, and get the cordial support of, every section of the community. At present there are two Boards, the Board of Inland Revenue and the Board of Customs and Excise. They are amalgamated here. We have not got anything like the same extent of business for the operations of the two Boards as exists in England, and it would not improve matters for us to have two Boards instead of one. The urgency of this matter will be appreciated when it is recollected that we have but a short period between this and the beginning of the financial year. There is also a matter which must be borne in mind. There is a very heavy task in arranging for the collection of Customs and Excise, which includes the setting up of a Customs frontier on the Six County boundary. The customs must be temporarily collected on this boundary pending the decision of the Boundary Commission. There was a reference made here to Southern Ireland. I do not know what particular part of Southern Ireland Donegal is, but it certainly is not in Southern Ireland.
Might I ask the President what are the facts connected with the Treasury?
AN CATHAOIRLEACH
Do you mean the tenure?
The President has answered that quite all right; but the question is whether if this Order passes, these officers will continue until some change is made, to be under the orders of the Finance Minister instead of under the Treasury? This Order appears as if there was going to be no Treasury, and, perhaps, the President will tell us what are the facts connected with that situation?
We had not had under consideration the setting up of the Treasury. We have only had under consideration a Ministry of Finance. That is prescribed for in the Constitution and there is no provision in the Constitution for a Treasury. I am inclined to agree with Senator Sir John Keane that there is scarcely any necessity for a Treasury, and in any case I would put it to the Seanad that it would be more advisable to see how the machinery of the Ministry of Finance would work before you consider the appointment of the Treasury, which there might be some difficulty in getting rid of once it was appointed.
I desire to raise one matter in connection with the appeal. As I understand the situation an appeal now lies by an aggrieved tax-payer to the Special Commissioners of Income Tax, and if there is a disagreement with that, the taxpayer on the one hand, or the Surveyor on the other hand, has a right to ask for a case to be stated. That case being stated the matter can be brought before the High Court. I then understand if there is, as there is always bound to be, disagreement between two litigants, one or the other may wish to appeal. Then there is a further appeal to what, under the Constitution, corresponds to an appeal to the House of Lords. It has to go, I think, with the permission of the Executive Council. The point I want to emphasise is that some of the Senators are under the impression that there was no appeal from a decision of this Board of Revenue Commissioners, whereas, in fact, the appeal lies to all the Courts that any taxpayer had access to previous to the establishment of the Free State.
I should have stated that there may have been some misinterpretation in the Order regarding the Treasury. The Finance Ministry is the Treasury here. The Treasury as mentioned ordinarily is the British Treasury. An appeal does lie to the High Court, and appeals to the Court still continue. There is no restriction, no limitation, and no interference whatever with any right a person had previous to the passing of the Order or previous to the setting up of Saorstát Eireann. There is no right or privilege which the taxpayer formally had that he is deprived of once this Order is passed.
Has this Special Commission been set up?
The Special Commissioners for Income Tax were English officials. Some time last year, I think it was during the period I was acting as Minister for Finance, a Special Commissioner of Income Tax was appointed. He is one of the highest graded Civil Servants in the service of the Government, and has had a long and varied experience of administration. I think he has accountancy qualifications. I believe he has, and he was appointed. It was proposed at the time that he should sit for this term with one of the Special Commissioners to be sent over from England, so that he would gain the necessary experience of that sort of work during that period. He is one of the Commissioners. His name is Mr. F. J. McCarthy, and he was in the Local Government service.
I wish to ask the Minister if he is prepared to consider the question, when appointing the Special Commission, of giving representation to men drawn from the best, and some of the largest, interests in this country. It is evident that this Special Commission has not yet been constructed, and there is plenty of time, I hold, to consider the suggestion I make. I am certain it would give considerable satisfaction to the taxpayers of Ireland if they had a Board to appeal to composed of their own class. That is not the professional class, but the large business men of undoubted standing. I ask the Minister to consider the suggestion.
There are two parties to the dispute, the large taxpayer and the State. My money is on the State, and in this business I have to consider the State. I am satisfied that no taxpayer will have any cause for complaint that by reason of the change that has come about his interests are prejudicially affected. I am perfectly satisfied as regards that.
Motion put and agreed to.