This is the Schedule that defines pensions and the rates of pensions. Without entering into any criticism, or in any way questioning these pensions, may I ask, for the sake of information, are they on the same rate as the British Army pay pensions? I have not heard any statement of the rates at which these pensions are granted. I believe this Bill is certified as a Money Bill, but it would be worth while knowing at what rate these pensions are calculated, and whether they are calculated on the same basis as the British Authorities calculate their pensions. I ask the question merely as a matter of information.
THE SEANAD IN COMMITTEE. - SECOND SCHEDULE—ALLOWANCE FOR DEPENDANTS OF OFFICERS.
I am sorry I am not able to answer this question as fully, perhaps, as it ought to be answered. It might be well if the Senator would raise it on the Report Stage, when the Minister for Defence himself will be here. I know that in the case of officers' pensions they are not exactly along the same lines as the British Army pensions. For certain grades of officers they would work out a little higher, but the scale is practically a flat one. In the British Army, a General and a Captain would have a different rate of pension, but in our circumstances we thought it better to have a flat rate, and to pay all officers equally. That means that a Captain would have a higher rate than he would have had if he had been receiving a pension on account of disablement incurred in the British Army. It was felt that in our circumstances it would be very difficult to have the same number of grades, and to have all the distinctions and differences that are observed in the British Army Pension Scheme. Sometimes it was largely a matter of chance whether a man held a higher rank or a lower rank. Men were promoted sometimes very quickly, while others in somewhat different circumstances, but in a different area, who were equally meritorious, were not promoted. The whole question of rank rose up very suddenly, and often there would have been changes in the grades that men would have held if time had elapsed, and their work had been scrutinised. Consequently, the feeling was that it would be better to take the thing in bulk, and have a flat rate for all officers. That works out slightly more to the advantage of the lower rank officer than to an officer in the same rank under the British scheme. At the moment I could not, without notice, give the details that the Minister for Defence himself would be able to give, and hence I think it would be better if this question were raised on the Report Stage when the Minister himself will be here, or, if he is not here, there will be some Minister present with the necessary documents to answer the question.
AN LEAS-CHATHAOIRLEACH
I ought to say that the Minister for Local Government is not in charge of this Bill, but as he was the only Minister present when the Bill came on for consideration I asked him if he would be good enough to remain in case any questions might be raised by Senators, and he kindly agreed to do so.
Question: "That the Second Schedule stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.
Question:—"That the Third Schedule stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
Motion made and question put:—
"That the Preamble stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
Motion made and question put: "That the Army Pensions Bill, 1923, be reported to the Seanad with the two recommendations attached."
Agreed.