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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 Dec 1923

Vol. 2 No. 8

SEANAD IN COMMITTEE. - CIVIL SERVICE REGULATION (No. 2) BILL, 1923.— (THIRD STAGE.)

Question—"That Sections 1, 2 and 3 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 4.
(1) Subject to such exceptions as are or may be made by or under this Act, every appointment to any situation to which this Act applies shall be made by means of competitive examinations conducted according to regulations to be made by the Commissioners with the consent of the Minister for Finance.
(2) Every such competitive examination (with the exceptions hereinafter in this Section mentioned) shall be open to all persons desiring to attend the same who are born in Ireland of Irish parents or who are the children of such persons or who are citizens of Saorstát Eireann or the children of such citizens, and who pay the fees, and possess the qualifications as to age, health and character, prescribed by the regulations made under this Section.
(3) The Commissioners may with the consent of the Minister for Finance by special regulation confine any such competitive examination to persons belonging to a specified class or being in a particular employment or possessing some other similar special qualification, and where an examination is so confined only persons possessing such special qualifications shall be admitted thereto.
(4) Every special regulation made by the Commissioners under this Section shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas at least one month before the examination or any of the examinations to which such regulation relates is held, and if both such Houses shall, within the next twenty-one days on which either House has sat after such regulation is laid before both Houses, pass resolutions annulling such regulation, such regulation shall be annulled, but such annulment shall not prejudice or invalidate any matter or thing previously done under such regulation.

I beg to move the following amendment to Sub-section 2:

"To delete all after the word ‘in' in line 37 up to and including the word ‘Eireann' in line 39, and to substitute therefor the words ‘any of the countries forming the British Commonwealth of Nations, or who are citizens of such Commonwealth.'"

The object of this amendment is to leave competition open to citizens of other countries acting with us in the Commonwealth of Nations, and I move it principally in the interests of our young people, a great many of whom apply for positions in the British Civil Service. I fear that if we were to adopt the clause as it originally stood, it might interfere with our young men and women being admitted to competition for the Civil Service in England.

I beg to second the amendment. Further down on the agenda paper I have an amendment on similar lines. As I said on Second Reading, I think it would be lamentable to exclude citizens of the British Commonwealth of Nations—that is to say, the other Dominions—from these examinations. It might very possibly lead to retaliation which would be disastrous. At present, in our schools and universities, there are a number of men preparing for examinations for the Indian and other services in the Dominions and Colonies of the Crown. If the clause were passed as it now stands, it is, I think, exceedingly likely that Great Britain might say that as Ireland has excluded the children of Great Britain from competing for examinations in Ireland, they, on their side, would exclude Irish Nationals from competing for examinations under the British Crown. Had this been suggested a good many years ago, personally I would not have spent a great many years of my life in the service of the Government of India. As an Irishman, had retaliation been enforced, I would have been precluded from competing under the Civil Service Regulations. I think it would be very undesirable that the children of other Dominions should be excluded from the operations of the Bill now before us.

I should like to be able to support this amendment if I thought there were reciprocal arrangements with regard to other Dominions, but I am afraid this amendment is a little premature. Our terms of citizenship are at present wide, but we have hardly yet decided as to how citizenship is to be acquired, and we are not yet clear as regards our relationship in regard to citizenship with Great Britain, and the other parts of the British Commonwealth of Nations.

This amendment proposes to go much further than they go in England. A German can become a naturalised citizen of Australia, but that does not make him a citizen of Great Britain, and he would not be entitled to enter for the British Civil Service in England. Under this amendment a German, or a Russian, or anybody else who becomes a naturalised citizen of Canada, becomes eligible to compete for the Irish service. If we have reciprocal arrangements with Canada, could a German or a Russian become a naturalised citizen of the Free State, and at the same time go over to Canada and compete for the Canadian Civil Service? I doubt if he could. I think the amendment is not quite clear with regard to its wording. With regard to the phrase "Citizens of Ireland," there is no such thing as citizenship of Ireland. There is citizenship of Saorstát Eireann. I would urge the Seanad to be slow in adopting the sweeping terms of this amendment.

I am very disappointed at the remarks which have fallen from Senator O'Farrell. There are hundreds of young Irishmen in the medical and other professions whose prospect it is to enter the Civil Service of Great Britain, and that of the British Commonwealth.

I think the motion Senator Linehan brought forward is one which deserves our very sincere support. We largely overlooked the fact that the export and import trade between Ireland and England exceeds 150 millions in normal times. I think Great Britain is our best friend, and we should cherish every opportunity we have of cultivating that friendship.

I think care should be taken before an amendment of this kind is passed. In the first place some of the arguments of Senator Haughton seem to be arguments that suggest that there is reason to suppose that because we protect our own nationals, there is going to be immediately hostile action on the part of the English Government. I should conceive of the Commonwealth as a number of nations which protect their rights while at the same time there would be negotiations, and goodwill and give and take. This Bill does not exclude any mutual agreements applicable to citizens of this country. I think I am correct in stating that there is no such thing as citizenship of the British Commonwealth. If for the sake of argument we take a German under laws which we have yet to pass, and give him the rights of citizenship, and make him a citizen of the Free State, he will not be a citizen of England when he goes across to England. If a person is admitted, as he might be, into citizenship in Canada are we, without examination, going to include that person as we would under this amendment, amongst persons suitable for our Civil Service, a body which must have the confidence of the whole country? I am in favour of preference for Irish citizens which I think every man will admit is reasonable. I am, further, in favour of mutual agreements being made with England and the other nations of the Commonwealth, but a sweeping amendment like this, passed here, it seems to me, would weaken our position in making suitable arrangements which we can make. Instead of being an amendment made in confidence of our position in the Commonwealth, it would really represent a want of confidence. I hope the Minister will make the position clear. And I would also be glad if the Minister would say whether this Bill makes obligatory that such competition would exclude some other arrangements with the other countries of the Commonwealth if it were found desirable.

The amendment has been referred to as being far-reaching, and it does look a far-reaching condition to put in the Bill. It practically limits competition to Irish people alone, and anyone who knows the number of Irishmen across the water and the splendid positions they fill there will, I think, admit that it would be a very dangerous thing to go forth that we are starting this new Government with more or less parochial ideas. I am quite satisfied that Irishmen will be able to hold their own in their own country, but I should be very sorry to see the field closed to them on the other side. We have many enemies there who will be only too glad to take hold of this Clause and use it to our very great detriment. It has been quite a pleasure to me in the past, in travelling through England and Wales, to find men at the head of the medical, engineering and other professions from Ireland, and in most cases from the South of Ireland. You have been striving to improve university education for all creeds and classes, and there is not a day in my life but young fellows are coming to me asking me to give them recommendations to firms across the water. There is no room for all these in our country at present. I may not see the day, but I hope it will come, when you will be able to cater for all. Meanwhile I think this is an exceedingly dangerous clause to insert.

I cannot support this amendment, for reasons which have not been stated by others. Let us consider where people would come from. Is it supposed that people who are not Irish, or of Irish descent, and who have no connection with Ireland, will come from South Africa, Australia and New Zealand? I think it is not likely that they will, or that they will want to. They have positions of their own to get over there, and it is not likely that they will come to compete here. Therefore, the people whom we are really concerned with are English. England is a very over-crowded country at present, with a million and a half of people unemployed, and as soon as opportunities arise in this country, which is not so thickly populated, they will be crowding over. Really I think that English people have done pretty well in Ireland in the last seven hundred years. They occupied all the land, all the positions in the Church, in the law, in business, and in everything else for the last seven hundred years, and really I think it is about time that the poor Irish people, who have been left out and excluded—forcibly excluded—from all these things, should have some little chance. It is my idea and my wish, and the wish of everybody, to bring back as many Irish people as possible. As has already been said, there are Irish people who occupy high positions all over the world, and they are a great loss to Ireland. I must say I have not so much sympathy for those who leave Ireland to earn their bread. I have no objection to their doing so, but my interest is in the people who live in Ireland, who stop here and try to work and raise up the country as best they can. I should like to collect all the best Irishmen from all parts of the world, if it were possible, to come over here to help in our professions and our Parliament. But I would not like to see English people coming over. We have had enough anglicisation for the last seven hundred years, and I am not anxious to see more. If we could bring back the best Irishmen who have made good all over the world we would be rich indeed, and would have plenty of people to do our work for us. At present we are not very well off in that respect. I do not think reprisals are likely. Ireland is different from other countries. Ireland is not a cosmopolitan or an imperial country like England. We have set up a new Government and it is time for us to try to provide positions for our own people instead of having them snapped up by Englishmen, who have always been trying to get in. Plenty of English people have been coming along and there are people now who are wanting to get employment. English people have come to me to try to get employment. Why they should come to me I do not know, because I could not give employment to anybody, but they come to anybody that they can get hold of. I do not want to see them in the country at all. The less we see of them the better. I think that the Government should try to protect and keep for the people of Ireland as many places as possible and not bring in all kinds of strangers and foreigners who can do very well in their own countries.

I rise to get an interpretation of the clause as it stands before I can decide my attitude towards the amendment. I take it that those who are born in Ireland, or of Irish parents, or who are children of such persons, are eligible. Might I ask if the children of people who are born in Ireland, of Irish parents, and who go to England and bring up a family there are eligible to come over and compete under this clause? I think, in the strict reading of it as it stands, that that is the interpretation. The clause says:—"Or who are citizens of Saorstát Eireann." If that were:—"Who are children of such parents and who are citizens of Saorstát Eireann," that would possibly be what is meant. That, by the way.

I do not think that any narrow view actuated the framers of that clause, because, surely it is due to us to narrow down the competition. We have not had very exceptional educational advantages in our history, and we are now broadening the basis of education and allowing those who are not very fortunate in the way of worldly endowment to get an opportunity of exercising and developing their intellectual gifts. Surely, at this stage of the formation of our nation, seeing that there is such an inclination on the part of those who are born here to go abroad when they reach the age of budding manhood or womanhood, we ought to see that we should keep them at home where possible. I do not think that in any circumstances you will have very many people coming from abroad to compete at your examinations.

I think straining that argument is unnecessary. The effect, no matter whether you pass this amendment or not, will be just the same so far as candidates sitting for examination are concerned. I can foresee the time when Ireland will offer such opportunities to people in New Zealand or Australia to leave their own homes and families and interests and come to Ireland to sit for a Civil Service examination. I hope the time will come, but I do not think it will be within the lifetime of any of us here. If that is the interpretation of the Bill as it stands, then I think it is sufficiently wide, and I will oppose the amendment.

One must view this amendment from two points of view. I think the attitude suggested by Senator O'Farrell, in which he said: "Are we convinced that reciprocity exists" has not, so far, been cleared up. I sympathise thoroughly with the mover of this amendment, and I quite agree we have had advantages from being allowed to enter the Civil Service in other countries. Is it not wiser for us in our infancy to adopt the policy of festina lente, make haste slowly, and consider whether this Bill as it stands leaves us room to argue that? The English nation recently considered the big question of tariffs. Tariffs are used by nations for reciprocal agreements, and the only thing we have to consider is whether we, an infant State, with education, as has been suggested, in a rather puerile condition, are to open all our examinations to other countries, the whole Commonwealth of Nations, without being satisfied that their examinations are also open to our people? If we did so we would be adopting an unwise course. Under the circumstances I think it is wiser not to pass the amendment. There is nothing to prevent the Government from bringing in an amending Bill at any moment, if satisfied it is wise to do so, and if the reciprocity, which Senator O'Farrell feels has not so far been extended to us, has been extended to us. On that account I will vote against the amendment.

I rise to oppose the amendment. When this Bill was being drafted, the first proposal was to confine the Civil Service to citizens of Saorstát Eireann and their children.

Afterwards it was thought wiser to extend that a little, in view of the partition of the country, which we hope will end in our time; in view of the fact that we have an indeterminate boundary; and that we have many of our people on the other side of the boundary, who, we hope, will be in the Saorstát when the boundary is determined. We thought it desirable to alter it to its present form, which simply confines the Civil Service to citizens of Saorstát Eireann and their children. I think we should look at this from the point of view of doing the best here in the matter of administration, and confidence in the administration and of harmony between the machine of Government and the people. The talk of reprisals and retaliation on the part of the British Government or Dominions, at any rate on the part of the British Government, seems to me to be utterly without cause. They have their own problems and their own reasons for their arrangements. Anybody, whether he is a Zulu, Hindoo, or Eskimo, if a British subject, can go into the British Civil Service. The conditions we have to face in Ireland are nothing like the circumstances the British Government has to face. Great Britain is an Imperial power, which we are not, and it has very good reasons for allowing everybody who has the status of a British subject to compete in its Civil Service examinations. It would be very destructive of its Imperial interests if it did not allow them to compete. There is no such thing as what you might call British citizenship, as apart from the status of British subject. We here have adopted a form of citizenship. We do not allow a man to vote here simply because he is a citizen of one of the Commonwealth of Nations, or because he is a British subject from India or elsewhere. He only votes here when he is a citizen of the Irish Free State. It would be quite reasonable and proper in my mind to restrict our services to citizens of the Free State. We must not lose sight of the extreme importance of the Civil Service in administration and legislation, even although it does not come directly into legislation, but we know the influence the Civil Service will always exert on legislation. It exercises a very great influence on administration. It is most desirable that our Civil Servants should be people whose interests and whose roots are in this country.

I remember speaking to one or two people about the time of the split, when the Treaty came along. We had a few English people in the Sinn Fein movement who had no roots in the country, and who took the most violently Republican attitude. I remember likening some of them to one of the women who came before Solomon in the dispute about the child. When it was proposed the child should be cut in two to divide, the real mother said: "Let the other one have it." The person who was not the mother was willing to have the child divided. I had an example of the doctrinaire point of view that people who have no roots or interests in this country will sometimes take up when extreme differences arise. I think it is most desirable that in our Civil Service we should have people whose interests are here, who look at everything from an Irish point of view, and who are in touch with the ordinary people of the country, so that there may be harmony and sympathy between the administration in every branch and the ordinary citizens. I think that is what we have to look to in determining the people who are to go into the Civil Service. The British Government have other things to look to, and will continue to look to them, and I venture to prophesy there is not the slightest risk of any exclusion of Irishmen from the British Civil Service. I do not think anyone here who looks into it will believe that there is a risk that the British Government, if we pass this clause in the form in which it stands, will exclude Irishmen from the British Civil Service. I do not think that the amendment to the clause would make a great deal of difference, because our Constitution prescribes that Irish is the national language of this country, while English is equally the official language. It certainly must be anticipated that, as time goes on, people who have no knowledge of the Irish language will be considerably handicapped in competition at examinations for our Civil Service. I believe the very fact of the position that has been given to the Irish language will automatically mean that the Civil Service of the Free State will not be particularly attractive to people from outside it. I do not think that in actual practice a great deal of difference will come, but I think it is well to lay down that in all circumstances we are going to have people in our Civil Service, just as we would have them in our Seanad and Dáil, who are interested in the country, and who have some tie binding their citizenship, or some hereditary tie linking them up with this country and its interests.

May I say with regard to the few remarks made by the Minister that they have absolutely convinced me that I ought to vote for this amendment, and especially for this reason. After all, it is a question of the balance of advantage to Ireland. Ireland is a very small place; the Saorstát is smaller still, and I fancy that all that is proposed to give away is to open up the Civil Service of the Saorstát of Ireland to other candidates, and that is a very small matter. We neither give salaries likely to attract people nor give them any other great advantage. I fancy there are very few people from England likely to avail of the advantage to be derived from our Civil Service. On the other hand, there are a great many Irishmen who gain their livelihood in the British Empire, not only in the British Civil Service, but in private companies and from private individuals. We all remember the time when notices used to appear in England, "No Irish need apply." I feel certain that if we in this, one of the first Acts of this Parliament, make a provision limiting the Civil Service to people of Irish parentage, we will be met by reprisals from the other side, and that not only will the cry, "No Irish need apply" be put in force again, but it will be put in force with far greater venom than before. The Minister said that the British Civil Service is open to everyone who is a citizen of the British Empire, whether he be a Zulu or an Esquimo. He said no matter what they did they would be allowed to compete. That I doubt. If Zulus or Esquimos, excluded from office Englishmen in their country, then I fancy reprisals would very soon take place. The balance of advantage to be derived by this very small country in comparison with the risks in eliminating this would be so much to our advantage that I strongly urge the Seanad to pass it.

I would like to ask whether the Minister or anyone else here could give us any authoritative information as to whether the Government of South Africa or Australia would allow persons not citizens of these countries to enter their Civil Service?

I am perfectly prepared to state that the citizens of Canada are allowed to compete for the Civil Service in England. It was so in the Service I was in.

I am quite sure that is correct but the question I am asking is as to whether the reverse is allowed; that is whether persons who are not citizens of Australia, or Canada or South Africa, are eligible to compete for the Civil Service in either of these countries. I doubt it very much, and I would like to have authoritative information on the subject. It would make a great difference in the matter of one's vote.

Amendment put and declared lost, on a show of hands.

I beg to move amendment No. 3:

Section 4, Sub-section (4). To delete all after the word "if" in line 53 up to and including the word "resolutions" in line 56 and to substitute therefor the words:—"either of such Houses shall, within the next twenty-one days on which either House has sat, after such regulation is laid before the Houses, pass a resolution."

The Section as it stands provides that any regulation made by the Commissioners should be laid on the tables of both Houses, and, if approved by one House only, shall operate. In other words, the Seanad may pass a resolution, disapproving of the regulations issued by the Commissioners, but, unless the Dáil passes a similar resolution, the regulation stands. In the reverse direction, if the Dáil passes a resolution proceeding to annul regulations, and this House does not, the regulation likewise stands. The only effect is that the Commissioners are practically autocrats unless they can get unanimity between the two Houses. When this matter was up the other day, the Minister defended the clause.

On a point of personal explanation, may I say that there was no discussion of this Section in the Dáil.

Perhaps it was Section 9, on which the same principle arises? He defended it principally on the ground that these regulations would mainly affect money matters, but there will be regulations other than money matters, upon which the Seanad would have a right to make recommendations. Now, if you take up another very important Bill—the Courts of Justice Bill—we find that, under Section 97, the rules of the court must be laid before both Houses, and if either passes a resolution seeking to annul the regulations, the regulation falls. If that is the case with regard to rules of the courts, there does not seem to be any strong reason why the same regulation should not govern the rules in regard to recruitment for the Civil Service. Naturally as the Minister is responsible to the Dáil, the decision of that House will, in most cases, prevail, and the result is that this House would be completely smothered in regard to these regulations. If the Seanad thinks that is a desirable state of affairs, it will defeat the amendment, but if it considers the resolution of any House should be sufficient to cause the withdrawal of the regulations made by the Commissioners, then those who have at heart the dignity of the State and the efficiency of the Civil Service, must vote for the amendment.

The attendance is now getting very thin, and I should suggest an adjournment when we get through the amendments, and before we reach the resolutions on the paper.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

That is a matter entirely for the decison of the House. But I wish to say with regard to the motions on the Paper, I think before these are moved the Seanad would like to hear what the conditions are with regard to the two dealing with certain outstanding matters. I think the House would come to the conclusion that these motions should be held over until all the facts are in the possession of the House. I do not intend to give them until the motions are reached, but if the information was given, I think Senators would see the wisdom of holding them over until after the Christmas recess. There are still a number of amendments on the Paper to the Civil Service Regulation Bill, and I think when we get these disposed of we should then be in a position to adjourn over Christmas.

There seems to be a considerable amount on the Agenda for this meeting, and I suggest that, after we dispose of the amendment in the name of Senator Farrell, we should adjourn until to-morrow.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

What do you propose to do to-morrow?

I propose that we should finish this agenda.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I do not think that would take the House more than two hours.

Might we not dispose of the amendments on the paper before we adjourn to-day?

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Perhaps Senators Col. Moore and Sir John Keane are not aware that there is a Committee, which the Seanad appointed, sitting at present, dealing with the particular matters referred to in the motions standing in the names of both these Senators, and if so, I am quite sure they would not wish to move their motions until the report of that Committee is complete. That Committee did send in an interim report, and there was then appointed a Committee consisting of your Chairman, An Ceann Comhairle of the Dáil, and the Minister for Finance, to go into the whole question of the staffs and to determine which were to be the common staffs of the two Houses. We have prepared a report which will be finally settled this week, and until that comes up before the Seanad I do not think it would even be in order to discuss the matters contained in the motions of Senators Moore and Keane.

With all respect to that, I should like to say——

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I do not want to discuss the Senator's motion now.

May I say that the facts, as stated, have been brought to my notice privately. I was going to argue that my motion is rather more comprehensive——

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

I quite agree, but a considerable part of the motion is covered, and I do not think the Seanad would like to take it until they have the views of the Committee to which I have referred, and which will report as to portion of the motion. I just mention the matter now, so that, should the Seanad adjourn until to-morrow, Senators will realise that the sitting may conclude in a very brief period.

There is a motion on the Order Paper in my name which is exciting a good deal of interest in the South, and I would like to have an opportunity of discussing it before we adjourn for the Christmas holidays.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

If the Seanad adjourns until to-morrow, as soon as we dispose of the amendment under discussion, the Senator will have an opportunity of moving his motion to-morrow.

I propose that the Seanad adjourns until to-morrow, as soon as the amendment under discussion is disposed of.

Motion put and agreed to.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

We will now resume discussion on Senator O'Farrell's amendment.

I would like to point out, as regards this provision of laying rules before the Oireachtas and the annulling of them, that in the case of the majority of the Bills which have been passed so far, it was provided that the resolution must be passed by each House, or both. That was done in the case of the Local Government (Temporary Provisions) Act, the Local Authorities Extension of Time Act, the Electoral Act, the Censorship of Films Act, the Army Pensions Act, and the Damage to Property Act. In the case of the Courts of Justice Bill, it is provided that before a regulation is made it may be annulled by the resolution of one House. It seems to me as regards this particular matter, that the provision as it stands should be allowed to remain. The regulation deals only with the matter of confining a particular examination to a special class of candidate. For instance, recent examinations were held for certain minor posts in the Customs and Excise, and in view of the fact that 20,000 men have been demobilised from the army, and that 10,000 more are due to be demobilised in the next few months it was thought desirable and proper to confine that examination—which was a competitive examination for which a large number of men entered—to men who had served in the National Army, and hence a special regulation was made.

This clause simply deals with the making of such special regulations. It seems to me that these are matters practically of administration, and matters where it is not desirable to hold up the making of appointments or the holding of examinations unless you can get a resolution of the two Houses agreeing to the making of such regulations. The regulation does not affect the ordinary citizen at all, in the way, for instance, that the regulations dealing with the Rules of Court would affect him. The regulation is not legislative; it is not legislating by regulation, but simply the carrying out of certain acts of administration, and providing for the ordinary work of Government machinery by regulation. It is not a matter that in any way affects the rights or the liberty of the subject or anything of that nature. If you provide that one House may annul such a regulation, you then provide the possibility of a deadlock. For instance, in a matter like this: Suppose it happened that the Government, with the support of the Dáil, felt it absolutely necessary, in the circumstances of the country, to confine these examinations to men who had served in the National Army, and supposing that, for some reason which might appear good to a majority of the Seanad, they decided to annul such a regulation, there would be no way out of the impasse. We would require to promote a new Bill; it would not even be a matter of allowing a certain time to elapse, but a new Bill would have to be provided.

Under a regulation of this sort it seems to me there can be no particular abuse. It will never be a popular thing to prevent a certain number of people from competing, and even with these competitive examinations you cannot ensure that any particular candidate will get an appointment. It is not a matter that can lead to any serious abuse, and it is not desirable that there should be any possibility of a deadlock which might be created by the adoption of this amendment. There is no doubt that if the Dáil passes or rejects an amendment, and it is the Dáil that is principally concerned with administration, the Minister responsible to it will almost certainly have to give way. He will have to give way, unless it is simply a chance or a snatch vote. In the case of legislation by regulation or by order, it is a different matter altogether. I submit that this is purely a matter of administrative detail and one in which no abuse can arise, and that the Seanad ought not to make an amendment that would provide the possibility of a deadlock arising.

I just want to say that the arguments of the Minister are pretty familiar. We have heard them before, at least half a dozen times, in regard to similar amendments. The net result of his arguments is this that the Seanad may pass as many resolutions as it pleases seeking to annul a regulation, no matter how that regulation may encroach on the rights of competition in the matter of recruitment to the Civil Service, but unless the Dáil passes a similar resolution the result is that the resolutions passed by the Seanad are so much waste paper. The Minister has painted for us a terrible picture as to what might happen in regard to a deadlock if a resolution were annulled; but he has slided over what should be a far more serious deadlock, and that is, if a resolution passed by this or the other House should annul any of the rules of Court, how would the deadlock in that case be overcome? I desire to ask if it would mean the introduction of a new Bill or the withdrawing of regulations already issued, or would it mean that fresh regulations would have to be made to meet such a position. There is no use, I suggest, in putting this bogey man before us, and telling us that if you annul the regulations of the Commissioners you are going to pull down the pillars of the State. The Seanad has to say whether it shall have any effective voice in regard to regulations of this kind or not.

Amendment put and declared carried.
Barr
Roinn