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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Jul 1924

Vol. 3 No. 14

THE DRAINAGE OF THE RIVER BARROW.

I beg to move:—

That the Seanad is of opinion that, in view of the urgent need for the relief of unemployment in, and to prevent the future flooding of, the affected area, the Government should proceed without further delay with the work of draining the River Barrow.

All Irishmen are interested in this matter. It is not necessary to tell Senators that deputation after deputation waited on English Chief Secretaries during their occupation in this country in connection with this matter. They received a favourable reception every time, and occasional offers of help, but for one reason or another the contributions which the British Government promised to give in aid of the work were turned down. At all events, nothing has been done so far to relieve the destitution occasioned in the district by reason of the devastation caused by the flooding of the Barrow. The Barrow is a river about 100 miles in length. It stretches from the Slievebloom Mountains to the ocean. It is 80 miles from its source to St. Mullin's, where it joins the tidal waters. It has been divided by the engineers into two separate areas, one called the upper area, which reaches from its source to Athy, a distance of about 40 miles; and the lower area, which reaches from Athy to St. Mullin's, where it joins the tidal waters. The lower area is not so much affected by the flooding as the upper area. The upper reaches of the Barrow affected by the flooding, I mean the catchment area, covers an area of 408,000 acres, while the lower reaches cover an area of about 300,000 acres. It is in the upper reaches of the river that the flooding takes place.

It was estimated fifty years ago that there were 50,000 acres affected, and now it is calculated that at least 70,000 acres are affected by the flooding. Commission after Commission has sat to consider the question of the flooding of the River Barrow, and plan after plan has been prepared with the idea of relieving the flooding. It has been calculated that ten or twelve thousand pounds have been spent on Commissions and on engineers' plans, and yet nothing practical has been done as far as removing the flooding is concerned. Not a shovelful of sand has been lifted. I ask the Seanad to support this motion for several reasons. One reason is unemployment. In the area from Mountmellick, where I come from, to Athy, I am told that about 1,000 men are on the unemployment list. About £1,000 a week is being paid to these men, who are able and willing and quite anxious to work, if the work were provided for them. When we approached the Minister for Finance on the question, we were told that the question of providing money to do the work was the difficulty; but here we find that £1,000 a week is being paid to men who are able and willing to work—to men who are doing nothing, but who are being made unemployable. There is not one of these men but would be quite anxious to work to save their own homes and the homes of their friends from the encroachments of the floods on the River Barrow. So far, we have been met with all sorts of excuses, but nothing practical has been done.

I have been acting as temporary chairman of the Barrow Drainage Committee. A deputation from that Committee has gone privately into the matter with the Minister for Finance, but the matter has been shelved every time. On the last occasion it was shelved with the proposition that a great firm of German engineers were coming over to Ireland, and, so to speak, were going to drain the Barrow by a stroke of the hand. We were told that that was going to be done by some great German invention discovered in the last war. We think, as the old woman said, that the old plan is the best plan, and we, ordinary people, think that this flooding is not going to be removed by any sort of fairy tales. In my opinion, we will have to depend on ourselves, instead of on the Germans, and I am of opinion that the engineers who have been engaged on this work know more about it than any German engineer could ever know. That has been given as a reason privately for not going on with the work. We are told that the Board of Works is in favour of the drainage of the Barrow. Everybody seems to be in favour of it, but no one seems to make any advance. As regards the finance of the question, we calculate that £400,000 would drain the Barrow— £300,000 the upper part, and £100,000 the lower part. The upper portion is the portion affected by the floods.

The engineers calculate that the floods from the upper reaches will go to the lower part and do an infinite amount of harm. The engineers have made provision against that. All the plans are in Dublin Castle or in the offices of the Board of Works. As far as the finance of the question is concerned, the money that we pay at present for unemployment, if capitalised, would pay 5 per cent. on a million, so that we would lose nothing as a nation financially. If at the present time we started to drain the Barrow and were to go ahead with the work, we could pay the interest on a million for nothing. Then, again, from the local standpoint, it is really a good commercial proposition. There are 408,000 acres in the catchment area, and by levying a rate of 1s. per acre on that area, you would derive a revenue of £20,000 a year. The area that is most seriously affected by the flooding covers about 70,000 acres, and if you were to levy a rate of 10s. per acre on these 70,000 acres, it would bring in about £35,000, so that the actual resources of the nation would not be taxed to any great extent.

The inhabitants in the reaches of the Barrow do not want the Government to take the whole thing in hands. They are quite willing to contribute their share, but what they want the Government to do is to start the work immediately and thus help to relieve the large amount of unemployment in the district. A Committee could be formed that would demand from the inhabitants of this flooded area a reasonable contribution annually towards the payment of sinking fund and interest. Such a payment would not weigh very much on the inhabitants of the benefited area, because their income if the floods are removed will be greatly increased. I am sure the farmers in the area would not object to pay a small tax, if they were assured that when they cut their crops they would be able to save them and bring them home. At present they cut their meadows and save the hay, but perhaps in a day or two the floods rise and carry away all the hay. If this drainage problem were settled it would, I am sure, put from £2 to £3 per annum in the pockets of the farmers by reason of the fact that their crops were saved from all danger by the floods. At present they may spend £1 or £2 in labour in saving the crops, and when the floods come along not only is their farm produce swept away, but they also lose the amount that they have expended on labour.

I appeal to the Seanad to support this motion and to put it forward to the Dáil. I hope that all parties in the Seanad will support it. First of all I call on labour to support it so that work of this kind may help to relieve the unemployment we have in that part of the country. I call on the farmers to support it so as to help their kinsmen living on the Barrow river whose property and crops have been devastated for years by the heavy floods and finally I appeal for patriotic reasons to all parties in the Seanad to support this motion. There are at least 100 square miles of land that we can save by undertaking this work from the ravages of the Barrow and I do not see why we should not do it.

I have great pleasure in supporting the motion moved by Senator McEvoy. This question of the drainage of the Barrow has been before the country for half a century. Some very important commissions were appointed by the British Government to inquire into the matter. The first was the Castletown Commission appointed in 1885; later there was a more important Allport Commission, and some 10 years ago there was the Binny Commission. Now various proposals were suggested by these Commissions and the first proposal was that the river should be widened and deepened. That proposal was turned down on the ground of expense because the Barrow at certain seasons has not a great flow of water and the result would be that the bed of the river would fill up with silt and the removal of that silt could only be done at considerable cost. Then came the Allport Commission in 1887. That was a very elaborate affair. A large staff of engineers were appointed to survey the river, and so anxious were the British Government to relieve unemployment at that time, that the staff worked night and day until they got out their reports and laid their proposals before Parliament. They proposed and Parliament put in hands at the time certain works. I saw the report which is in the hands of the only surviving engineer who was employed in the works —Mr. Bergin of County Kildare. He was one of the three engineers appointed to make the survey and prepare the plans for the execution of the work. That again occupied three years on the part of the three engineers. The consulting engineers engaged in the work are well known to the engineering world and in fact they are names to conjure with—Messrs Dillon, Haddock, and Braithwaite, the latter of whom became Chief Engineer of the Board of Health in England.

A deputation recently waited upon our Government in regard to this matter, and one of the objections raised was that it would be necessary to get further expert advice on the matter which would involve considerable cost. But the plans that this commission got out are available and the whole thing cost between £20,000 and £30,000. They are there and available for the Government to act upon them. One month from hence with the passing of a small Bill by the Oireachtas they would be enabled to work, and on time-and-material principle the contract could be taken up immediately without any further expense in regard to engineering. I understand that was one of the great obstacles they raised. Senator McEvoy said the Barrow is divided into two sections, both the upper and the lower. One of the things that caused difficulty in the past was the contention that if the upper section was drained it would flood the lower section. The proposal of the Allport Commission was to straighten and slightly improve the bed of the river, together with the building of embankments to 4 or 5 feet and in some cases 6 feet, extending along the whole range of the river. I am informed on the best authority that this work on the upper portion of the river could be started on Monday morning next. These embankments, with the big drains, would convey water from the higher stretches to the lower levels. That could be easily all started without the slightest danger of flooding in the lower levels, if that scheme were carried out. They might start above Monasterevan in the morning and at the same time start lower down between Carlow and Athy. It would not be necessary for the Government to advance money.

The whole scheme would cover the period of four or five years, and if the Government took the matter in hands a small yearly advance would meet the situation. In view of the amount of unemployment in the country I think that the case was never more urgent than it is now. Unemployment is the problem which the Government have to tackle. It is becoming a great danger, and if it is not met the cry of the hungry child going out to the man will drive him into adopting an attitude towards the Government that will not be good for the country. I would urge the Seanad to accept this motion and press it upon the Government. It will relieve the immediate wants and from the point of view of health from a national standpoint, and also on the grounds that it involves very little expense, I would urge the Seanad to press on the Government to take up this matter in the way indicated in the resolution.

I am strongly in favour of the motion. Senator McEvoy made a most excellent speech, and I wish we heard his voice more frequently. In former days the Barrow was a great barrier against invasion of the country, as its floods prevented people from invading the country, but now the floods have become embarrassing, and we would like to do away with them. I would like to add to what has already been said. The drainage of the river is very important, but it is not the only important factor connected with the river. There are various interests to be considered, and they should all be taken together. One is drainage, another is transport, another is power, and another is fisheries. All these things work into one another, and when the drainage portion is being carried out one should consider how these other things should also be dealt with. In this case drainage is undoubtedly more important than the others. I would suggest to Senator McEvoy that these words be added to the resolution, "provided that the interests of fisheries, power and transport are each duly considered."

That has already been considered, in the scheme put forward.

What has been said has tended towards the correction of floods, but nothing has been said as to the averting of floods. That is a very important consideration. We know that where a country is denuded of trees, rain falls and flows in increasing masses down the rivers, with nothing to lessen its power, but much to increase it, whereas where a country is well supplied with trees, and well planted, when the rain falls it does not flow away. The forest lies upon the surface of the ground. Like a vast sponge it absorbs, from the surface and the ground beneath, the water, and carries it up into the air, from which it passes sometimes largely, and is carried away by the winds.

Wherever there are forests of that kind there are few and small floods. That was perfectly well known for instance in Paris which in recent years has been subject to certain unusual floods and the cause was that the trees along the sources of the rivers flowing into Paris and conjoined in the Seine, have been more or less carried away. Consequently the remedy they suggest and are carrying out is the plantation of trees above the river which will absorb the water to a large extent leaving only a comparatively small stream which flowing down the river will augment its quantity no doubt, but not to a dangerous or sudden extent. It is, therefore, to this question that engineers and others who desire to see the Barrow amended should turn their minds because there has been no tendency up to the present to increase the growth of forest trees but rather to diminish them. All over the country trees have been cut down for fuel, the more so because the weather has been damp. That rain which injures the turf and makes it incombustible would have increased the forest trees which would have served for fuel. Remember that in France, Germany, Spain, and Italy, these woods are used for fuel and would have been of great service in supplementing the peat. Want of fuel has been a source of great suffering to the poor. Want of fire means want of power for cooking food and as a consequence, suffering and disease. I will support the resolution with the suggestion that efforts should be made to replant the areas of the water-sheds which pour their sources now into the Barrow.

I do not think that there is any work that the Government could address itself to with more advantage, or anything that would meet the present needs of the moment more by relieving unemployment and providing work for the great body of the unemployed who are unskilled than this. This is a class of work where no skill is required, and here the work would be distributed over large areas. Also, there are districts included where unemployment is hard to relieve. We know that, owing to depression in agriculture, those who formerly relied on employment are now not employed. A very large percentage of their services are not needed. It was stated here that work of this sort may be entered on under such conditions that it will not mean any considerable loss or outlay to the State. I am sure that any of those who hold land which is subject to flooding will only be too eager to enter into any arrangement that may be made by way of an impost per acre on the territory where flooding goes on. Those people will only be too glad to enter into an arrangement to pay an annual stipend, or other reasonable charge which the Government might see fit to make in working out the finance of an undertaking like this. There are other areas than the Barrow, not so extensive, subject to floods, right throughout the Free State. Senators here will have areas in their own localities, and I might suggest to the Government in this connection that there is a very great opportunity for relieving unemployment at various points, and particularly giving employment to the entirely unskilled.

Near the City of Waterford there is a large area within a mile of the city. Part of it is flooded and is within the city boundary. The rest is in the county. I am sure the city council and the private owners of that land would only be too happy to-morrow to enter into an arrangement with the Government. It is too large for a private undertaking, and can only be carried out by the Government and the Board of Works. The need is there, and most of the ten or twelve hundred unemployed in the City of Waterford could be absorbed in that work. Here to-day one has hardly time to read the titles of the Bills sent along. Glancing at this list, I came upon the Telephone Extension Bill, which will cost £500,000. That will probably relieve some unemployment. The commercial community may not be very much incommoded by not having this extension, but here are matters which we always understood would, when we had charge of our own affairs, be the first matters to be taken into account. It would give relief to unemployment, and would give the people work. Here is an opportunity where they can be most usefully and reproductively employed, and where the people, so far as vested interests are concerned, are only too anxious to help us with the minimum of liability to the State. Why does not the Government address itself to efforts of this sort and relieve this present need and distress of the moment? I am sure that if we take a strong attitude in the matter—this resolution has been already very much supported, and the case for it has been put up in such a way that the arguments used are unanswerable— we will bring forcibly home to the Government the great opportunity that presents itself at the moment for doing a very useful thing. It will be a popular measure, and I think the Government could do with a little popular legislation at the moment. It will be a popular, beneficial and reproductive measure, and it has everything from that point of view to commend it.

A great deal has been said already, and I agree with Colonel Moore that the case was put clearly and definitely by Senator McEvoy. He touched on ancient and modern history, but perhaps his modern history is what we should deal with. It showed that it was a scheme which, if entertained by the Government, would really result in producing something that would give a good return for the money expended on it. Colonel Moore said we have not heard Senator McEvoy as frequently as we would like. I think we all agree that the case put forward will meet with a hearty response from the Ministry. I heartily congratulate Senator McEvoy on bringing forward such a scheme.

I have genuine sympathy with the desire associated with this motion to bring a large acreage of land under cultivation, also with the desire to give unemployment relief in the form of useful work as against doles. I cannot vote, however, for this motion. In fact, I am bound to vote against it. That may seem, at least to the supporters of this motion, who, presumably know a great deal about the subject, an uncalled for and an unfriendly act on my part, as I do not claim to know anything about it. It is precisely for that reason that I feel bound to vote against it. If the Seanad adopts this, it is the same as saying that we all believe there is a satisfactory scheme which ought to be put into operation at once. I know quite well one member of the Seanad who knows nothing of the kind. That is myself. I dare say there are a great many others in the same position. Before I associate myself with the motion to expend a large sum of money, I want to know what that is going to produce.

I do not know what it is going to produce because, I believe, that the very fact that this subject has occupied the attention of successive commissions makes it a very difficult question. We have got no proof that any of these schemes that have been recommended by various engineers have any assured prospect of solving the problem. I have, myself, talked with engineers of some distinction about this question, though not in a very serious way, because it was none of my business, but I understood from them that it is a very difficult question and the thing that makes it so difficult is the preservation of the navigation of the Barrow. The danger from flooding will remain after this drainage is carried out. It is well known from experience that highly developed countries, which are drained by ordinary agricultural drainage, are the greatest producers of floods. Floods are much more serious in most of the highly developed countries of Europe than they used to be. There is an enormous increase in the floodings in such places for the reason that the water finds its way into the river more quickly than it can be drawn off. The difficulty is enormously increased where you have a river dammed up in a great number of places. If you continue to have navigation you must have these dams.

While I have strongly supported the motion for the spending of a large amount of public money for the rebuilding of the Four Courts, to be reasonably consistent I wish to give a reason why I supported that. If we were to spend £180,000 on the Four Courts, we know what we would get. This matter of the Barrow is a thing that I know nothing about. I certainly would never urge upon the Government that they should immediately proceed with work about which I know nothing. For that reason I must vote against this motion. Senator Colonel Moore, in the course of his speech, referred to the necessity for taking all the aspects of a question like this together. You must do so unless you are to do more harm than good. It is on that very ground that I think it is very undesirable that we should take a plunge in a thing of this kind, and urge upon the Government to take a step of this kind when, as a body, we know very little about it. I have been told by people whose word carries weight with me that the drainage and the navigation of the Barrow are diametrically opposed to each other. It may be that if I knew as much about this question as Senator McEvoy does, I would support his Motion. Without his knowledge I find it my duty to vote against the Motion.

Perhaps if these words were added to the Motion it might satisfy Senator Bagwell, "Provided that the interests of all fisheries, power, and transport are each duly considered."

If I may speak again on what has been suggested by the mover of this resolution, I would be inclined to alter it in the following way. It would be so drastic an alteration that I hesitate to make the suggestion. But as Colonel Moore has suggested an alteration I would now suggest that this alteration be made:

"That the Seanad is of opinion that in view of the urgent need for the relief of unemployment, and to prevent the future flooding of the affected area, the Government should consider again the question of the drainage of the River Barrow."

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Would you be satisfied to say that the Government should take into their earnest consideration the question of the drainage of the River Barrow?

Would you make it "urgent and immediate consideration"?

I would accept the Chairman's words because if consideration is not earnest it is not consideration at all.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

The Motion would then read:—

"The Seanad is of opinion that in view of the urgent need for the relief of unemployment in and to prevent the future flooding of the affected area the Government should take into their earnest consideration the question of the drainage of the River Barrow."

Motion put, and agreed to.

AN CATHAOIRLEACH

Now in regard to our business, I wish to inform the Seanad that there are nineteen Bills for our consideration when we meet to-morrow. Twelve months ago it would have occurred to me that that would mean two days' protracted sitting of the Seanad. But seeing that we have despatched fifteen Bills to-day in the space of an hour I see no limit to the speed and the powers of this House. Therefore, I think we will be quite able to dispose of these nineteen Bills to-morrow. The question that I want the Seanad to advise me upon is whether they would prefer to sit at 11 o'clock to-morrow or at 3. We will not require to sit on Friday. We can dispose of all the available business of this week to-morrow.

I might point out that while I agree that the majority of these Bills do not provide material for much discussion, at the same time I think it is quite certain that so far as they deal with commercial interests or with questions affecting the interests of labour, that a perusal of them by those Senators interested in the particular Bills would suggest desirable amendments. When we resume after the Recess it would be well for the Seanad to see whether we could not provide some means by which those Bills should receive a preliminary examination by certain Senators. I am convinced that there is not a single Bill that we have put through the Seanad but might have been improved. It seems to me that at present there is nothing for us to do but to proceed with the Bills before us with the same rapidity with which we have been progressing for some days past. But when we resume after the Recess I would ask the Seanad to consider the suggestion I have made.

The Seanad adjourned at 5.15 p.m., to 11 a.m. on Thursday, 17th July.

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