I move:—
"That in the opinion of the Seanad the system of Irish Local Government and of Irish Local Finance is unsuited to the practical needs and resources of the Free State ratepayers generally; and that steps should be taken by the Minister for Local Government and Public Health to ensure that expensive works of permanent utility should be financed by means of Local Loans, with appropriate periods of repayment."
I have to express my appreciation to Senators for giving me this opportunity of discussing the question of local administration. I am aware that many Senators have attended at personal inconvenience to themselves, and I appreciate their action very much indeed. Their only reward will be, I suppose, that they will know they have assisted in ventilating a very important question. I hope that will be sufficient reward for their assistance. I make no apology, really, for inviting a discussion on local administration. Some three weeks ago I gave notice of this motion in response to a general invitation from the Cathaoirleach. We have discussed some details of it in the meantime, though I did not take part, but I followed the discussion, and I was rather interested to gather from the remarks of Senators that, on the whole, their minds seemed to be proceeding very much in the same direction as my own. I am not going into details generally, in respect to local administration, but, on the whole, I foresee a measure of general agreement, from questions raised by Senators, as to the lines on which an improvement of local administration might proceed. To prevent any misunderstanding I would like at the outset of my remarks to make this statement. I have had very long experience of local administration in this country. I have had considerable experience of local administration in England. I worked for many years with the Irish Local Government Board. Sometimes I opposed it on questions of public policy, but most times I was in complete harmony and collaboration with it.
As a result of my experience of local government I have a very great respect for that Department. I consider the Department compares exceedingly well with any similar government department in any other country. I have a very great admiration for the intelligent and public-spirited way in which our Local Government Department attends to the duties it has to discharge. If I make any slip in the course of my remarks I hope it will not be taken that I intended in any way to reflect on the Irish Local Government Department. As I say, it is a most efficient Department, perhaps the most capable that this or any other country possesses. I worked too long with it to wish in any way to carp, criticise, or make any unfair remarks as to the administration or the capacity, generally, of that Department. In any remarks that I may make to-day, or in the future, when discussing this question I hope it will be understood that I do so in a spirit of friendliness to the Department. Having mentioned the Local Government Department there is another matter to which I would like to draw the attention of the Seanad and the public, generally. In a sense, I think our Local Government Department is the most important Department of administration we have. No Department affects the public more generally than that concerned with local administration, and none touches our daily lives at so many points. There is no Department that comes home more constantly, that is, I may say, more ubiquitous, to the ratepayer or taxpayer as that concerned with questions of local administration. Perhaps, in a sense, it may be described as the most important Department we possess.
In view of the importance of the duties which the Local Government Department has to transact I think it is only fitting that the head of that Department should be, ex-officio, a member of the Executive Council. That is my view. Of course, I make no complaint about the present arrangement. The present arrangement, as far as the composition of the Government is concerned is transitory, more or less, but I hope when this country settles down to transact business in a normal way, that the Minister for Local Government will be, ex-officio, a member of the Executive Council. I throw out that suggestion for the consideration of the public generally. May I say that in the short time we have been managing our own affairs, in spite of all the difficulties, the question of local administration has not been neglected. Last year, or the year before, we passed a very comprehensive amending Act, as far as local government is concerned. As far as it went, and speaking generally, I think that Act was drawn up on right lines. No doubt, the advantages of that Act will become more apparent in the near future. In my opinion we are only at the beginning of our reform, or adaptation of a system of local government. The amending Act that I referred to will probably be followed by other Acts as there are many ways in which local administration can be improved, notably in the direction of making it more adapted to the circumstances of this country. I am not complaining of the action or inaction of the Government in this matter. As I say, they have already introduced and passed an Act which is useful so far as it relates to local administration.
There is no doubt that our local administration will have to be further adapted to the circumstances of the country. I would like, with the permission of the Seanad, to lay down certain lines according to which, in my humble judgment, the adaptation of our local administration might usefully proceed. It will be understood that in any remarks I make I am simply making suggestions for the purposes of discussion. It does not follow that because I make a statement I consider that statement to be a good one, but I believe it to be true and the best and the most suitable to deal with the situation for the time being, at all events. It does not follow that I am infallible, and the Seanad will understand that in making these suggestions I am simply laying down a basis for discussion. I do so in a friendly way towards all our existing institutions, such as they are. If it be found that my proposals are not suitable, of course, they will not be agreed to, and I shall not be in the least bit disappointed. I think we have come to recognise in this country that there is no use in a man getting up in a public assembly merely to carp and criticise. I think everybody who chooses to take the public into confidence in relation to our public affairs, should deal with all issues in a practical, common-sense way. He has a right, of course, to express his opinion, but he should not indulge in the very easy task of criticising simply in a destructive fashion.
I propose to deal with this question, firstly, from the executive, and secondly, from the financial point of view, and I shall make certain suggestions for the public consideration. We all know that our system of local administration is based upon the English model. There was no other active model in operation 30 years ago when we reformed our local administration. In the same way as many years before, when we established our Poor Law system, there was no other model or exemplar by which to go except the English one. The English system of local administration is suited to the needs and the circumstances of England. It is an easy thing for England, with her teeming population and her gigantic wealth, to indulge in an expensive system of local administration. My experience of local administration in this country—I spent a great many years at it in every shape, from Co. Councils to Harbour Boards—is that we could have quite as efficient a system of local administration in this country, much less expensively if it were not modelled as our present system is, on the English plan. At the same time, I am not a destroyer, and I would prefer, without scrapping anything, to utilise the machinery and structure we have. I say at the outset that our local administration is too expensive for the capacity of the country. It is founded upon the English model. The English can afford an expensive system, but I do not think we can. The taxpayers—and by taxpayers we mean ratepayers as well, because it is the same people who pay all the taxes—are carrying a burden which is beyond their capacity. There is no doubt about that. In fact, the whole country, in my opinion, is keeping up an establishment which is too expensive for its income. I think that we could simplify and centralise our local administration very advantageously. I think we could enlist in the practical operation of local adminstration, expert management. No business nowadays can be conducted without expert management, and it is no argument to tell me that we cannot find experts in this country in local administration as in everything else if we choose to look for them.
Thirty years ago when local administration was amended this country was given a multiplicity of councils, and one of the reasons for the multiplication of these councils was that their operation would be instructive. Well, we have 30 years experience of that administration, and I do not think really that we have anything more to learn. I do not think the people of this country in any case are inept at local administration. I know that in other countries where Irishmen manage local administration they manage it with considerable success, and I do not think that in this country we really need—in fact it has been shown that we do not need—the multiplicity of councils we have under the old system. I think the time has come for us now not so much to make speeches and attend to procedure or to deal in legal technicalities and matters of that kind. The time has come for us to administer and administer capably. That is the problem before the country, and it is with a view to a solution of that problem I intend to make certain suggestions. In the first place, we need administration adapted to the country's capacity to pay. I have stressed the point that in our local administration we ought to enlist the services of specialists in many directions. I reaffirm my belief in the abundance of capacity in the country, and my conviction that if that capacity is to succeed it must specialise. I will ask the Seanad for a moment to consider the wide range of local administration, and the services that we have to administer.
First we have relief of the poor. Then we have housing, we have our hospitals, we have our roads; we discussed our roads for two days last week. We have sanitation. We have, as part of our local administration, the very important question of marine works. We have forestry, as we were reminded yesterday by one of the Senators, and we have many other things besides. I simply note these various matters to emphasise the wide range of the scope of local administration, and to enforce the view I hold, that for proper local administration of so many subjects, specialised administration is necessary. I read you just now a long list of subjects, and I could read you many more. The Seanad will realise that the administration in all these matters is not a question for either officials or amateurs. We were governed in the old days by officials. Now some people tell us that we are governed by amateurs. I do not believe that myself, but others may disagree with me.
Local administration is not a proper field for officials, no matter how good they may be, for officials are hidebound, and the amateur in local administration is simply hopeless. That is my experience. I throw this out now as a basis for discussion. If it is not found to be a good scheme let us have another scheme. Let us put forward practical proposals in the discussion of public questions in this country. I would suggest that we should appoint a Local Government Advisory Commission. I would not have a large Commission. I would have a Commission, say, of four. I would have as a member of that Commission a representative of Irish Labour; I would have a representative of the Irish medical profession; I would have a representative of Irish engineering, and, finally, I would have a representative who would be expert in business finance. I would call all these people experts. I suggest a Commission of four, but that is a matter for discussion. I would start with this Commission of four. I would entrust to this Commission the devising of a common policy of local administration. There are various directions in which we spend the ratepayers' money year after year. These matters are not coordinated. It seems to me that very often the ratepayers' money is not spent to the best advantage.
I would entrust to this Commission the duty of devising a common policy for local development in all its different branches. I am not just now going to say anything about the roads. I would give this Commission power to see that this continuous policy is carried out. Of course, this policy would be spread over many years, and in all probability none of us would be alive to see the completion of it. What I would like to have in this country is a continuous policy, not a happy-go-lucky policy of sporadic administration but a continuous policy devised by the best minds on matters relating to Irish local administration.
I would give our existing county councils advisory powers as to the finances of the general policy. I am sure there would be no necessity to urge upon them to exercise their powers. But I would see that they did exercise their powers, and exercised them fully, and on all proposals, all estimates, all schemes for public improvement, I would give the county council advisory powers. In the event of their disagreeing with the Local Government Commission, I would give them the right of appeal. I would give them the right of appeal to an accessible tribunal here in Dublin, which would be appointed, half by the Local Government Board, and half by the General Council of Irish County Councils. I think that a tribunal of that sort would see that there was fair play between the Local Government Commission and the county councils in general.
How would you find your Commissioners? There is no lack of capacity in this country. It is only a question of finding the men. They are there. It does not always follow that the gentleman who talks the loudest, or whose name you see most in the newspapers, is the most capable person. But you can find the capable persons. You can find them through the Civil Service Commission or through their Selection Board. I think you have a Selection Board that could lay its fingers tomorrow or next day on capable men to fill all these four different appointments. There was a time when I thought that the politician was a very splendid person, when I used to be a politician myself. There is always, in connection with popular or public appointments, the difficulty, particularly in local government bodies, of making appointments from some political aspect or another.
There is always the possibility of political influence being brought to bear on appointments. I would eliminate that altogether. I would leave the selection to the Civil Service Selection Board, and therefore there would be no politics in it. I would have no advertence to a man's politics in connection with local administration. Local administration is not so much to make speeches or support one side more than another, but to administer. Now I come to the sheet anchor in my scheme, as far as the ratepayer is concerned. Before appointing the Local Government Commission, I would fix, in every locality throughout the Free State, the maximum standard rate beyond which local taxation in no instance could ever possibly go. Of course, if, under the administration of the Commission and the assistance of the County Councils, you could reduce the rates, so much the better.
I think the fixing of a figure beyond which the rates could not be raised would be an essential part of the programme, and it would be to the advantage of the ratepayer. It may be that the standard rates would not be reached in many cases. But if you could co-ordinate your local administration, you could give them some central direction, you could have a common policy on which the administration of the country would proceed and you would be able in due time to effect economies in many directions. We know how much overlapping there is, and how much money is wasted and spent in utterly unreproductive directions. If we are to have a central administration and a centralised policy, we can get economics in many directions. I cannot conclude this speech without saying something about voluntary help.
I think that in local as in other branches of administration local help is of the utmost value. My opinion is that in local matters every important local establishment, whether an hospital, industrial school, or whatever it may be, should have a voluntary visiting committee which would inquire into the condition of these institutions, look after the people in them, provide them with newspapers and magazines, and generally assist in the improvement of these institutions in their various spheres. One great advantage of volunteer help in these matters is that you foster and preserve a healthy interest in local matters. The best way of discovering how improvements can be made and carried on is by voluntary investigation. May I remind the Seanad that I notice an extraordinary increase in the interest taken in the Oireachtas in local matters. When we first started operating we used to have, occasionally, questions. I went to some pains to look up this matter in the records of the Seanad and the Dáil, and I found that for one question asked a year or two ago on local matters there are now fifteen. That shows how much interest the public are taking in local administration, and it also shows how an efficient voluntary local association can assist our services. These associations, of course, would have free access to the Local Government Commission, and if they had any views to express regarding local matters they would be considered.
So much as to the administrative side of the question, and now I turn to the financial side. That side in a sense is all-important. There is no use telling me that the financial condition of this country is satisfactory. It is not. Neither is there any use in telling me that the financial position of our local authorities is satisfactory, because it is not. I have good reason for knowing what I am talking about, and it is really time that the public should begin to give this question of national housekeeping their very serious attention. There is no short cut to prosperity. Some people tell the Minister for Finance that if he does this, that, or the other thing, the country is going to bloom like a garden, and that all our troubles are going to end if you put a tax on some things. That will not happen. There is no short cut to prosperity. All these developments and evolutions in a useful and sensible direction are a question of time. What is of importance is that people should have a definite idea, and consider how best and most efficiently to carry it out. That is my strong view as regards administration. Now, the taxpayer and the ratepayer, who is the same person in this country, is over-burdened, and the consequent financial position of the local authorities is most unsatisfactory.
I would like the Seanad to look at this matter from an angle at which it has not been hitherto approached, although you, Leas - Chathaoirleach. went very near it yesterday, and I thought you had stolen my thunder. What is the population of this country? We do not know exactly, but we shall know when the census returns are available, and I hope we will not have as long to wait for them as we had for the results of the Seanad elections. However, we can make a guess that the population of the Free State must be in or about 3,000,000. We are not the whole, but only the three-quarters of Ireland. Of that 3,000,000 the people who pay the taxes are the heads of families, the breadwinners, roughly speaking. The children and the very old people do not pay taxes. The main burden of the taxation falls on the heads of the families. How many of such are there in the Free State? It would be a very liberal computation to assume that there are 1,000,000. The Free State with that 1,000,000 heads of families is now paying at least £30,000,000 sterling a year.
The Estimates for the coming year in this State may disclose something between £25,000,000 and £26,000,000 with rebates. Local taxation in the old days, when I was associated with it, used to be about £4,000,000 a year. Therefore, if I allow £5,000,000 a year for our local taxation, and I think with that figure I am under the mark, then your one million heads of families are paying £30,000,000 a year. The head of a family in this country cannot afford to pay £30 a year in taxation. That being so, we must come to our Minister for Finance and ask him to relieve us, but the poor man cannot. He has got his Estimates, his liabilities, certain outgoings to meet, and he has to find money for all these things. He cannot give us relief right away; he can only do it by degrees. I do not hesitate to say that you can reduce what I must call your excessive taxation, both national and local. It is the same persons who pay the taxation, local and national. There are two directions in which you might improve matters. There are certain branches of expenditure which I would place in the category of permanent expenditure. I think the public money in this country, as far as possible, should be spent under the aspect of an investment. There are many things which are now developed and promoted by annual contributions from the central or the local rates that might, advantageously, be left to the liquidation of posterity.
There is no more important question before the country or before the city of Dublin than the question of housing. For the last three years I will not say unfortunately, but certainly against my will, I have to a certain extent become a citizen of Dublin. I do not want to compare the streets of Dublin with any other capital. You would find just as bad streets in New York, Paris, Sheffield or Liverpool, but I do say that your back streets in Dublin are a disgrace to civilisation. I say that the slum quarters in all great cities are a disgrace to civilisation. This country is now beginning its career with a clean slate, and it has a magnificent future before it. Therefore, I see no reason why the people of this country should not tackle seriously and gravely this question of housing, not merely in our cities, where it is a burning issue, but also in the rural districts. I am glad to say that the Local Government Department has already taken steps in this direction. I think in view of the circumstances of the country and the times we have passed through, that our Local Government Department has behaved magnificently. It will be news, I think, to many, that within the last two years, with the assistance of our Local Government Department, ten thousand houses have been built in the Free State. That, I think, is a magnificent record. About half that number was built in urban areas, and the other half in rural areas.
The time has come, I think, when the present policy in regard to housing cannot be further pursued, because the country cannot afford it. The question, I think, must be dealt with in another way. In this country you have some excellently managed local councils. Some of these bodies have the power to issue local municipal stock. I think more of them should get that power, and that such stock should be given the status of a trustee investment. In that way, I think you would get, within limits, a very large sum of money. There would be the additional advantage of securing Irish capital for a perfectly sound Irish investment. That is one of the things I would urge. As I say, I would make the stock of first-class councils, and there are quite a number of them, a trustee investment. That is a way, I think, in which the housing problem might be tackled. For general operations carried on by local administrative bodies, such, for instance, as road-making up to a certain point, marine works, sanitation and water supply schemes, etc., I would issue local stock. The carrying out of works which had met with the sanction of the Minister for Local Government and were certified as being useful, I would finance by means of a local development stock, the stock to be repayable in a period of years.
In connection with this I would have a sinking fund. I would not issue all my stocks at once. I would issue, say, stock to the value of one, two or three millions, or whatever the amount might be that was required to start some undertaking with. I would make each issue of local stock autonomous in this respect, that it would end itself automatically at a certain time. That would enable you to take advantage by and by of the fall in the price of money. The price of money at the present time is very high, but it is not always going to remain high. In five, ten, or twenty years' time it will be much less than what it is now. I would start my local loans stock on the understanding that a certain proportion would be repayable, say, in sixty-five years, at the current price of money to-day. When the next stock was issued the money might be much cheaper. It would run for the same period of years, but would be redeemable at a correspondingly cheaper price. These, of course, are all details. Once the principle is admitted, I venture to submit that some reorganisation of our local system of administration on those lines would be beneficial. We are beginning in this country to-day with practically a clean slate, and we want to make it a happy country. We want to give everyone a chance of living decent lives, and, as far as we can help it, happy lives.
The Local Government Department can exercise an important influence as regards the future development of the country. It is time, I think, that we took the matter in hands. I would like to point out, of course, that none of the reforms I have referred to can be expected to bear immediate fruit, but the sooner you arrange your machinery to carry out your permanent policy the sooner will the future administration of this country be placed on a permanently satisfactory basis.
