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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 9 Apr 1930

Vol. 13 No. 17

Agricultural Produce (Fresh Meat) Bill, 1929—Report Stage.

I move.

Section 8, sub-section (3). To delete the sub-section and to substitute therefor a new sub-section as follows:—

"(3) Before refusing an application for the registration of any premises under this Part of this Act, the Minister shall send by post to the applicant at his address as stated in the application one fortnight's notice of the Minister's intention to refuse such application and of the reasons for such refusal and shall consider any representations made by the applicant before the expiration of such notice."

The object of the amendment is to enable an exporter to carry on business for some time until he has the opportunity of putting the slaughterhouse in proper order so as to get a licence.

Amendment put and agreed to.

I move:—

New section. Before Section 10 to insert a new section as follows:—

"10.—(1) Where an application is made, before or within twelve months after the commencement of this Act, for the registration of any premises in a register of slaughtering premises and the Minister is not satisfied that such premises comply with the general conditions of cleanliness and suitability of slaughtering premises or the appropriate particular conditions of suitability of slaughtering premises the Minister may, if he so thinks fit, provisionally register such premises in such register for such period not exceeding twelve months as he shall think proper and shall specify at the time of such registration.

(2) Premises provisionally registered under this section in a register of slaughtering premises shall, while they continue to be so registered, be deemed for all the purposes of this Act to be registered in such register in accordance with this Act and this Act shall apply to and have effect in relation to such premises accordingly.

(3) Where any premises are provisionally registered under this section in a register of slaughtering premises and the Minister, before the expiration of the period for which such premises were so registered, is satisfied that such premises have been brought into compliance with the general conditions of cleanliness and suitability of slaughtering premises and the appropriate particular conditions of suitability of slaughtering premises, he may, before the expiration of the said period, confirm such provisional registration, and thereupon such premises shall become and be registered in such register as fully in all respects as if they had, on the date of such provisional registration, been registered in such register under this Part of this Act other than this section.

(4) Where any premises are provisionally registered under this section in a register of slaughtering premises and such provisional registration is not confirmed under this section before the expiration of the period for which such premises were so registered, such premises shall, at the expiration of the said period, cease to be registered in, and shall be removed from such register and shall not again be provisionally registered under this section in such register."

The amendment, which is a Government amendment, speaks for itself. It is deemed to meet the case where, if an inspector considers slaughtering premises not up to the standard for a licence, the Minister may provisionally give a licence for a specified time so as to allow the premises to be put into proper order.

I accept.

Amendment put and agreed to.

I move:—

New section. Before Section 16 to insert a new section as follows:—

"16.—(1) Where owing to special circumstances existing at the time the Minister considers it desirable so to do, he may grant to any person, to whom he could under this Part of this Act grant an exporter's licence to export fresh meat and offals of a particular kind, a permit (in this section referred to as an exporter's permit) to export fresh meat and offals of that kind during such period not exceeding one month as the Minister shall think proper and shall specify in such permit.

(2) Every exporter's permit to export fresh meat and offals of a particular kind shall during the period for which it is granted be deemed for all the purposes of this Act save as otherwise expressly provided to be an exporter's licence to export fresh meat and offals of that kind and this Act shall apply to and have effect in relation to such exporter's permit accordingly.

(3) Section 12 (which relates to fees on exporter's licences) of this Act shall not apply in relation to an exporter's permit.

(4) There shall be paid in respect of every exporter's permit by the holder thereof at the expiration of such permit a fee (in this section referred to as the permit fee) computed by multiplying the appropriate sum as defined by rule 2 of the Schedule to this Act by the number of animals presented under such permit to a veterinary examiner for examination during the period for which such permit was granted, and for the purpose of such computation sub-rule (3) of rule 4 of the Schedule to this Act shall apply in like manner as it applies for the purposes of that rule.

(5) As soon as may be after the expiration of an exporter's permit the Minister shall ascertain and certify the amount of the permit fee payable in respect of such permit and shall issue a certificate (in this section referred to as a certificate of indebtedness) in the prescribed form certifying the person by whom such fee is payable and the amount of such fee.

(6) Every certificate of indebtedness shall be conclusive evidence of all matters purported to be certified therein and any document purporting to be a certificate of indebtedness issued under this section shall, on production thereof in any proceedings to recover the amount thereby certified to be payable, be deemed until the contrary is proved to be a certificate of indebtedness duly issued under this section and shall be admitted in evidence accordingly.

(7) As soon as may be after the issue of a certificate of indebtedness a copy thereof shall be served by post on the person thereby certified as liable to pay the fee the subject thereof and immediately upon such service the amount certified by such certificate as payable by such person shall become and be payable by such person to the Minister and shall, after the expiration of four weeks from such service, be recoverable by the Minister as a civil debt in any court of competent jurisdiction."

This new section proposes to give the Minister further powers in addition to those he already possesses. Under the Bill, the Minister has power to grant ordinary licences to export, and also under Section 41 to grant special licences. The object of this new section is to meet a situation that may arise if for any reason there should be an embargo on the export of live stock due, for instance, to an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease. No matter what care may be taken an outbreak may occur, and there is always the possibility that the export of live cattle may be held up for some weeks. There are a number of cattle exporters who buy cattle each week in the Dublin cattle market in order to supply their customers in England. In the past, when an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease occurred and live cattle could not be shipped they were able to have the cattle killed in Dublin and to keep their customers supplied. If the Bill is passed as it stands, these exporters would not be able to send their cattle across, as it would not be worth their while to take out an ordinary licence under the circumstances, but if the new section is inserted the Minister would be able to give a special permit to ship for the time being. I do not believe that it will ever be necessary for the Minister to exercise his powers under this new section, but it is well to be prepared for any eventuality that may arise.

I am in agreement with the views put forward by Senator Butler.

I accept the amendment.

Amendment put and agreed to.

I move:—

3a. Section 17, sub-section (3). Before the word "pork" in lines 61 and 64 to insert in each case the word "beef."

I accept the amendment.

Amendment put and agreed to.

I move:—

Section 23, sub-section (3). Before sub-paragraph (h) to insert a new sub-paragraph as follows:—

"(h) that a person upon whom a notice under sub-section (6) of Section 20 of this Act has been served has failed to comply with the requirements of such notice, or."

I do not know whether the Minister has given any consideration to this amendment. It was left over to allow the Minister to make sure that the Bill did already contain provisions such as are sought to be in serted by the amendment.

Under Section 23 the Minister may cancel registration if there has been any contravention of the Act. I consulted the draftsman, and he is quite clear that failure to comply with the requirements of the Act is a contravention of the Act.

If the draftsman is clear on that, I am not going to put my opinion against his, but it seems to me that a notice is not the same as a regulation issued by the Minister. I thought there was a gap, but if the Minister is satisfied with the draftsman's advice I do not wish to press the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move:—

Section 24. To add at the end of the section a new sub-section as follows:—

"(2) Every regulation for the preparation of fresh meat made by the Minister in regard to the matters specified in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of sub-section (1) of this section shall provide—

(a) that every animal, except swine, shall be instantaneously slaughtered or shall by stunning be instantaneously rendered in sensible to pain until death supervenes, and that such slaughtering or stunning shall be effected by means of a mechanically-operated instrument in proper repair and of a type approved by the Minister, and operated by a male person of the age of eighteen years or upwards who is, in the opinion of the Minister, a fit and proper person to operate such instrument:

(b) that all animals, including swine, penned or assembled for slaughter shall be kept in a place so separated from the slaughterhouse or place of slaughter that they are not able to see any animal slaughtered."

This is an amended form of the amendment which I moved and subsequently withdrew on the Committee Stage, for the purpose of making the use of the humane killer compulsory for the slaughter of animals except swine in slaughterhouses licensed in connection with the export trade. The first part of the amendment is a verbatim copy of the provision in the Scottish Act dealing with the same question, but I omitted swine although I am informed that swine are sometimes killed by a humane killer of a smaller form than that used in the case of cattle. The second part of the amendment is merely a provision to prevent one animal witnessing another being slaughtered. It is quite simple to have a small partition or other obstacle erected which will prevent one animal seeing another animal being slaughtered, if the people in charge of the slaughterhouses so desire. These slaughterhouses, one would imagine, are to be well-equipped and properly supervised and consequently this provision should offer no difficulty whatever. Of course, I realise that this amendment would only cover a limited number of slaughterhouses, but I think a commencement should be made, and I hope these provisions will eventually be included in a Bill which will be introduced making the use of the humane killer compulsory in all slaughterhouses. The instrument most favoured at the present time is one which fires a captive bolt which penetrates into the brain of the animal causing instant death or insensibility and is returned to the instrument from which it is fired by a spring attachment. It is perfectly safe and requires little or no previous experience. The instrument is simply placed at the exact spot on the forehead of the animal which does not know what is going to happen, and the pressure of the trigger ensures instant death. As against that there are one hundred to one chances of the pole-axe doing all sorts of things, the man missing the blow, the axe itself being ineffective, or the man being inexpert in its use. It has been argued by various people that the pole-axe in the hands of an expert is just as humane and as satisfactory as the humane killer. Even if we grant that contention the question might be asked: when does a man slaughtering cattle become an expert? Only after considerable experience. Experience of what? Experience on the living animal which is endowed by nature with all the capacity for pain and terror with which human nature itself is endowed.

Even when a man does become an expert as a killer the landing of the axe on the exact spot is affected by different considerations—the state of his nerves at a particular time, the state of his liver, and the state of his general health. Any of these things may make an expert a non-expert on certain occasions. There is no such thing as a changeless expert, a man who never misses, any more than there is such a thing as an expert golfer. There is nothing like taking the views of people who are themselves experts in these matters. Here is what the late superintendent of the Carlisle public slaughterhouses, with twenty-three years' experience of the use of the humane killer, says:

I have little patience with those of my trade who state that the pole-axe and other methods are not the producers of immense suffering. If the battering to death of an animal, the knocking out of an eye, the driving of the pole-axe into the nostrils and other parts of the head through a misdirected blow, the breaking away of an animal from the slaughterhouse after having been struck with the axe, sheep lying with three of their legs tightly bound within sight of their companions slaughtered, the jumping off the crutch, as some sheep do, when a youth attempts to stick it with a blunt knife, the hanging up of calves by hind legs till they bleed to death—if these things are not suffering then tell me what really is. These sights are not tales of the past, but present-day realities.

That is the view of a man who had twenty-three years' experience as a superintendent of the public slaughterhouses in Carlisle. Here is what he says about the humane killer:

Having given you these facts may I state my candid opinion of the humane killer? With the use of these all this suffering among these tens of thousands of animals is swept away. My experience is that these instruments save much time and remove all pain.

The humane killer is in operation in Northern Ireland. Its use is compulsory there and we hear no complaints about any hardship or any undue expense being inflicted on anybody. Its use is compulsory in Scotland, in Germany, in Sweden, in Switzerland and many other countries. Although it is not universally compulsory in England, the Local Government Board some years ago promulgated a model bye-law known as Bye-law "9 B," which is now issued by the Ministry of Health and can be adopted by local authorities that so desire. It reads:—

A person shall not in a slaughterhouse proceed to slaughter any animal until the same shall have been effectively stunned and such stunning shall ... be effected with a mechanically-operated instrument suitable and sufficient for the purpose.

That bye-law has been put in force by about 60 of the principal local authorities in England, including the London County Council. The London County Council, in a recent report, state:—

It appears to us that in comparison with other methods of stunning, the greater reliability of mechanically-operated instruments as the means of rendering animals, large and small, insensitive to pain has been satisfactorily demonstrated.

Some years ago the Admiralty set up a Committee of Inquiry to consider the humane slaughtering of animals, and it recommended:—

That no man should be permitted to use the pole-axe on a living animal until he has gone through a thorough course of training, firstly upon a dummy animal, and then upon dead bodies.

Anyone with any knowledge of slaughterhouses knows that butchers undergo no such training, that they start on the living animal and that it is only after mutilating scores of animals they can in any sense of the word claim to be experts. Then having become so-called experts they are open to all the chances that are applicable to human nature, where so much depends on the conditions, such as health. Defending the pole-axe as against the humane killer is tantamount to defending the executioner's axe of the Middle Ages as against the guillotine and the electric chair of the present day. There are 148 slaughterhouses in and around Dublin, and a fairly good proportion of them—forty— voluntarily use the humane killer. They display notices stating that only the humane killer is used by them, and I am informed that they have secured numerous new customers as a result. Doubtless that is making a commercial use of humane methods, but the fact that it has brought them new customers is a sign that public opinion favours the infliction of the minimum amount of suffering on animals. I have here a letter from an eminent veterinary surgeon who is an inspector for two local urban district councils, in which he says:

I have no hesitation in pronouncing in favour of the pistol, as being the best method of slaughter and likely to cause the animal less dread, as the swing of the axe and the action of striking causes the beast terror, whereas the pistol can be quietly placed on the right spot on the skull, and as inspector for meat for two urban councils, I have never seen a miss with the pistol, but have with the axe. I certainly advocate the extension to sheep, for which there is a different pistol.

I am amazed to hear that the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals have indicated that in their opinion it would be undesirable to make this law compulsory at the present time, solely on grounds of diplomacy—that for the Oireachtas to show certain humane considerations would cause organised opposition to the use of the humane killer, and would make it very difficult to supervise the various slaughterhouses, and that they would much prefer to proceed by the method of peaceful persuasion. If this amendment is turned down the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals will have to accept responsibility for it, after, of course, the people who may vote against it as a result. I put down this amendment without consultation with anyone and merely from the desire to try to a limited extent to enforce the principle of inflicting no suffering that could be avoided on dumb animals. I have been approached since by numerous members of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals expressing appreciation of the amendment, giving it their whole-hearted support, and stating that they would approach members of this House to induce them to vote for it.

In view of that I cannot understand the representations which it is alleged have been made to the Government in regard to the matter, and I hope the House will act with a full sense of responsibility, irrespective of what any society, no matter how admirable it may be, may do. If the responsible authorities in other countries and in the North of Ireland have not felt that it was impracticable to enforce a law of this kind, I do not see why there should be any such insuperable difficulty here. I have already had intimation from a representative of the cattle trade here that he will oppose the amendment. As I said before, that is very largely a development of tradition, as I know having been reared in the country, that to show anything like consideration for a dumb animal is a sign of human weakness, that in order to be considered a strong man you must, to a certain extent, be brutal, be a sort of cave-man, particularly where dumb animals are concerned. Of course I do not say that that is the general idea in the country. I could not say that, because I come from the country myself and I would be long sorry to plead guilty to such an idea; but there is a type of man who will defend the most brutal treatment of dumb animals, who will faint if he only cuts his finger, forgetful of the fact that dumb animals are endowed with all the power and capacity for pain and terror that affect human nature. There is nothing to gain by inflicting hardship, suffering and terror that can be avoided. I hope the House will be as up-to-date in matters of this kind as the Governments of the other countries I have mentioned. By enforcing this provision, as far as export slaughterhouses are concerned, we will be making a start to eliminate the brutalising scenes that are to be witnessed in slaughterhouses throughout this country, which are now becoming obsolete because of the development of civilisation and the development of a more intelligent and a more humane point of view. As I said on the last occasion we have imposed a mountain of suffering on brute creation, suffering which presumably is avoidable, and there is no justification, good, bad or indifferent for imposing suffering on dumb animals which we can possibly avoid.

I wish to oppose the amendment that Senator O'Farrell has so ably lectured us on regarding the humanity that should be exercised in the killing of cattle. I would be sorry to subscribe to anything that would not be humane. I have years of experience in the cattle trade and Senator O'Farrell has only heard of it. I felt, in the course of the model language he used, that he more or less alluded to Senator Counihan and myself. He could hardly explain why we favoured the pole-axe except that we were brought up in surroundings in which there were cattle which more or less gave a turn to our outlook in that respect. I can assure the Senator that the greatest cruelty I witnessed occurred not very long ago during the dockers' strike we had at the North Wall. I never saw as much cruelty as was inflicted on cattle at that time, and I did not hear of anyone coming forward from his section of the community out of motives of humanity to complain of cattle having to be sent away to Belfast and Glasgow and that were destroyed. I have had about 40 years' experience of the use of the pole-axe in the Dublin abattoir and in the Government abattoir on the Curragh, and the missing would not amount to 1 per cent. on the number of cattle killed. I know of two cases where the pistols misfired and two men were shot dead. The humane killer was more or less looked upon as being a great source of danger. Everyone who had experience of it was more satisfied with the pole-axe. I made inquiries in the butchers' shops in Dublin last week and all those I asked were in favour of discretion being left with them to use the humane killer if they chose and to have no compulsion. It was stated that beasts are more or less sensitive when about to be killed. I saw the humane killer in use. It is an admirable instrument, and personally I would have no great objection to it. I think it is a first-class instrument and that it does not require expert practice to use it on cattle, but I think it is ridiculous to suggest that it should be used on sheep, lambs, or pigs. That is a ridiculous proposal, as it is not at all suitable for that purpose. Without being disrespectful to a good many of my lady friends who have notions about humanity, I would remind them of what can be seen in the streets of Dublin. Let them look at the beautiful animals and birds that come from North America and that they use for their adornment. It is like painting the lily to see how they use furs. Does it ever occur to them that there is cruelty in that?

No woman has spoken in this debate.

I think they ought to leave humanity out of the matter, and that it is a waste of time to be dealing with it in this way. People in the trade ought to be allowed to carry on to the best of their ability. I remember my good father teaching me this maxim: "An inadvertent step may crush the snail that crawls in the evening on the public path, but humanity forewarned will step aside and let the reptile live." That was the humanity that was taught to me in my young days. Many people kill hares and rabbits, and indulge in fox hunting. That is also cruelty to animals. I think we should draw the line and let the people who have spent their lives at a business, and who are as interested in the humane killing of animals as anyone else, carry on as they think best. I saw it stated that the meat of animals slaughtered by the humane killer was kinder than that of the animals slaughtered with the pole-axe. It is trash to think that it makes any difference. To come back to the housekeepers, people will say that the best way to kill turkeys is to choke them and that they will then cook better. That is another mistake. I think these suggestions are ridiculous and that people should be left to do as they wish. I suggest that the Minister should leave it to the discretion of the trade to use the humane killer or the pole-axe, whichever is in the interests of their business.

I am opposed to the amendment, not because I am brutal or callous, but because I do not believe there is any more humane method than the pole-axe. Like Senator O'Connor, I want to take exception to Senator O'Farrell's remarks about those who were opposed to the amendment. It was said that they were callous and had no consideration for dumb animals. I want to deny that statement, and the Senator should know that he was not stating a fact when he made the assertion. Senator O'Connor and myself have done more within the last twenty-five years to prevent cruelty to animals at fairs, markets, railway stations and shipping yards than Senator O'Farrell and the Society he represents could ever hope to accomplish. Something may be said for the use of the humane killer for cattle, but I have not heard any Senator who has any experience of cattle advocate the use of the humane killer in preference to the pole-axe. They have got that idea because some members of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals have canvassed them. They have put forward a very plausible case, like that put forward by Senator O'Farrell. But it is only one side of the question. They have not seen the practical side. I say, as Senator O'Connor has already said, that it is all nonsense. Whatever can be said for the use of the humane killer with cattle nothing can be said for its use on sheep, pigs or little lambs. Imagine a little lamb being killed by the humane killer when one gash with a knife will cause its death.

Senator O'Farrell mentioned that a number of slaughterhouses in Dublin have the humane killer in use. Has he any proof that they use the humane killer? They use it as an advertisement in order to get customers from members of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. It is a very admirable Society. I do not want to denounce it in any shape or form, but I think it is going too far in interfering with this business. I have no axe to grind for the butchers. I have no connection with them, but as a representative of the cattle trade I am opposed to the amendment. I am instructed to do that by practical men in the trade who are as humane in their outlook as the Senator and the Society.

There is no sense in the second part of the amendment. I disagree with it. The animals cannot be conscious that they are going to be slaughtered. It is suggested that pigs and sheep should be screened off and should not be allowed in sight of where cattle are slaughtered. It might inflict unnecessary hardship on the users of slaughterhouses to put up partitions and to carry out such regulations as the amendment proposes. The only thing that will affect animals is the sight or the smell of blood, which cannot be completely eradicated from slaughterhouses. The smell will remain there, and so will the sight, to some extent, and I cannot see that there is any sense in the second part of the amendment. If the House agrees to carry out the Senator's wishes—and I suppose a number of Senators who have been canvassed by the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals will—I would suggest, if the Senator is not satisfied to leave it to the Minister, that an independent expert should be got to decide which is the more humane form of slaughter, and if he is satisfied, a Bill could be introduced making the use of the humane killer compulsory for the whole State. There is no use in making it compulsory in licensed slaughterhouses where only exported meat will be dealt with. If the Senator will withdraw the amendment, and if the Minister will give an undertaking to have an inquiry held, I think that would be going a long way to meet those interested in the amendment and, if necessary, legislation could be introduced making the use of the humane killer compulsory for the whole country.

The making compulsory of the humane killer might cut across all possibility of meat being purveyed to the Jewish people, because it would be against Mosaic law to slaughter meat in this way.

That is, of course, a very important point, but it is not affected by the Bill at all.

It would be affected by the amendment.

No, it would not, because this Bill only deals with meat for export, and meat killed here for the Jewish community is not exported. The meat that is killed for the Jewish community in London is killed at Birkenhead, so that this would not affect that meat at all.

There is a great possibility that meat will be killed and exported to England for the use of Jews.

That is unlikely. At present all meat for the Jewish community in London and elsewhere is killed in Birkenhead, and there is no export of Kosher meat at all. I intervened for this reason: I would like to see this question approached from the proper point of view. I take it that everybody in the Seanad would agree that there is nothing manly at all in cruelty, and that it should be common cause that it is highly desirable that the killing of every animal should be carried out with the least possible cruelty. The Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals is a very energetic and efficient body which has no point of view other than the prevention of cruelty to animals, and I think the Seanad should have before it at this stage their considered views for what they are worth. I do not say that the Society is infallible, but it is right that at this stage the Seanad should have them, as we got them in a letter. I had some correspondence with the Society, and they, in fact, invited me to see the humane killer being used in a certain place in Dublin, but I did not accept their invitation, because I have often seen the humane killer and the pole-axe being used here and elsewhere. I had another letter from Miss Edna Power, the Secretary, dated 3rd April, 1930, as follows:—

"Sir,—Referring to my letter to you of 21st ult. and to your reply of the 25th ult., I am desired by my Committee to place before you the reasons why they are at present opposed to compulsory legislation to enforce the universal use of the Cash Captive Bolt Pistol, throughout the Irish Free State when animals are being slaughtered for food.

The pistol referred to is, of course, the expensive £5 humane killer, with the captive bolt. There are two classes of humane killer, one which uses an ordinary bullet which enters the animal's head, and the other with a captive bolt which shoots out and comes back.

Their reasons are:—

(1) Because any attempt at compulsory legislation would at once arouse organised opposition on the part of the licensed victuallers.

(2) Because several hundred inspectors would be required to see that the humane killer was always used; and a check kept on its use by records of the ammunition sold. The cost of this to the State would cause its rejection at once. It is one thing to pass an Act making a certain thing compulsory and quite another matter to ensure that the law is obeyed.

The humane killer, like any other weapon, needs to be kept oiled and clean. Slaughtermen are often careless themselves about doing so, and when the killer fails to work perfectly owing to their own carelessness, the men are apt to throw it aside and revert to the pole-axe. Our inspector regularly visits every licensed victualler who has bought a humane killer from us and sees that his weapon is in working order; and, if not, either puts it into order himself or we get it done.

Further, we have means of telling whether a licensed victualler is constantly using his humane killer or not, because we keep a register of the cartridges sold to every owner, and if he fails to purchase cartridges when he ought to require them, our inspector immediately pays him a visit, and if necessary can remove the placard which we supply him with, the display of which in his shop brings him custom.

In England and Scotland the practical objections to having humane killers made compulsory are almost negligible compared with this company, because in those countries the Swedish killer can be used. It only costs 19/-, against £5 for the Cash Captive Bolt humane killer in use here, but the Swedish killer requires a cartridge containing a bullet which fits any ordinary revolver, and for this reason we do not believe that the Government here would allow it to be used by butchers all over the country, although a few people such as O'Keeffe, the Dublin knackers, have used it for years and are still doing so. Further, although the chance of any accident with the Swedish killer is almost negligible, yet, a few years ago a man when using it to kill an animal in England managed in some clumsy way to injure another man standing by. This accident put many butchers against it, although an accident might not occur in more than one case in a million. No accident can occur with the Cash Captive Bolt pistol.

When the abattoir in Dublin has been reconstructed, and all the small slaughterhouses closed, then the policy of the Society might possibly change as regards Dublin and suburbs only, where proper inspection could be enforced, but they regard an attempt to force compulsory legislation on the point, to be applied throughout the whole of the Irish Free State immediately, as unwise. In this matter the policy and advice of this Society, is summed up in Festina lente, and employ persuasion —not compulsion.

It is obvious that many of the small butchers throughout the country do not kill enough beasts in the year to make it worth their while to spend even £5 on a Cash Captive Bolt pistol, and if this should go out of order they would need to have a spare one for use until the first one had been repaired. In such cases they would be apt to revert to the use of the pole-axe, which, being only a heavy hammer, is perfectly unbreakable. After a few years, but certainly not now, the Government would probably be able to allow the 19/- Swedish killer to be used, and it is practically unbreakable, but until then compulsory legislation to be applied outside Dublin (and perhaps other cities) is not in our opinion practical politics.

That is a stupid letter.

That may be, but I thought it right that the considered views of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, which, as far as I know, is about as efficient a society of the kind as there is in the country, should be known to the Seanad before they come to a conclusion on the matter. Of course, there is one obvious comment to be made on this letter, and that is, that they do not seem to realise that the proposal here applies only to slaughterhouses which are used for export, and is not to apply to the ordinary butchers. But at the same time, even with that, there are considerations which show quite clearly and obviously that there is a good deal in this letter which is quite sound. Take paragraph 2:—"Because several hundred inspectors would be required to see that the humane killer was always used; and a check kept on its use by records of the ammunition sold. The cost of this to the State would cause its rejection at once. It is one thing to pass an Act making a certain thing compulsory, and quite another matter to ensure that the law is obeyed."

I only quote that section of the letter for the reason that it shows that a great deal of consideration and, if I may say so, of wisdom is behind the point of view of the Society. One of the points that enthusiasts always forget is that it makes bad worse to pass a law that cannot be efficiently administered, and that will lead to a reaction in the exact opposite direction to that intended. There is the letter for what it is worth, and I think that the Seanad should advert to it before coming to a decision on the matter. With regard to the amendment, Senator O'Connor made a number of points that cannot be answered and that were quite right. He said that there was far and away more cruelty in the killing of wild animals and birds in this country than in the killing of cattle and sheep, and cruelty that is participated in by all sorts of respectable people belonging to all sorts of benevolent institutions and that there is not a word about it. That may be irrelevant, but it is a fact, and there is really no answer to it. Of course, Senator O'Farrell would answer that it is better to stop cruelty wherever we can, and that that is the business before us now. Senator O'Connor suggested that there was no great objection to the humane killer for cattle, and I think Senator Counihan more or less agreed with him. I would suggest to Senator O'Farrell and to the Seanad generally that they should consider that.

This amendment covers cattle and sheep so far as paragraph (a) is concerned, and as far as paragraph (b) is concerned it covers cattle, sheep and pigs—that is to say, so far as (a) is concerned it provides that both cattle and sheep shall be killed by the humane killer. It may be that you can enforce with some sort of success the use of the humane killer for the killing of cattle, but I am absolutely satisfied that if you try to enforce it in regard to the killing of sheep you will fail and that you will give rise to a rather bad state of affairs where people, without very good reason, are being forced by law to use an instrument that is unsound and to evade the law with impunity. It would be very absurd to attempt to slaughter lambs with a humane killer. I genuinely believe that as lambs and sheep are slaughtered at present they are slaughtered with as little cruelty as it is possible to have in such an operation. I agree that the cruelty is mainly not in the very act of slaughtering, but the surroundings, the smell of blood, the bringing of the animal into a place where, by instinct, it knows it is going to be killed, and it comes in to a certain limited extent by the use of the pole-axe in unskilled hands, where there is a miss. I am absolutely certain that you have neither of these present where pigs are concerned, from observations of my own and from conferences I have had with veterinary surgeons and other people. There is never any chance of missing as far as sheep are concerned. There is in their case nothing like a pole-axe, where a man would hit an eye or a nostril. I do not believe that sheep advert to or realise what is happening, and I am absolutely certain that pigs do not. I am certain that when slaughtering is taking place in the presence of pigs they do not advert to it, and I have watched them often in slaughterhouses in different parts of the world, in Chicago and Canada. In England, Scotland and Ireland pigs are all slaughtered in the one way, and in any slaughterhouse where pigs are killed in the world that I know of there is no other way of slaughtering pigs. So that you may take it that if you apply paragraph (a) to pigs you will completely upset the whole trade, and needlessly upset it. I am absolutely certain that pigs are put out of pain instantaneously, and that when the operation takes place in the presence of other pigs the other pigs do not advert to it. If you are used to seeing these animals killed you will see that there is no terror in the case of pigs until the act occurs. It would be out of the question for pigs, and it would completely dislocate the present trade arrangements. Equally, I think, it would be to a lesser extent out of the question for swine, and in view of what Senator O'Connor and Senator Counihan said, and of the letter from the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, which the Seanad should take some cognisance of, I suggest you would be going a long way if you would make the humane killer compulsory for cattle and omit paragraph (b) entirely, because it is not needed. We have our regulations prepared, and so far as sheep and cattle are concerned one of our regulations is that the slaughter of sheep and cattle shall not take place in the presence of any other animals.

I would like to say a word in favour of the amendment. I have had experience for a great many years of cases in the army where animals had to be destroyed—I think I may say thousands of them—chiefly horses, oxen and mules. I have seen every kind of instrument used to destroy these animals, and my experience is that the humane killer is far and away the best. No suffering is caused to the animal by it, death being instantaneous, and I support Senator O'Farrell's amendment. At the same time, I think if he would confine himself to cattle in this matter it would meet the case.

I spoke in favour of the humane killer the last time this Bill was before the House, and I am of the same opinion still but in view of the letter which the Minister has read, and in view of the character of the Minister, whose worst enemy will not deny that when he is convinced that a thing is right neither fear nor favour will prevent him from doing the right thing, I think his suggestion might be accepted. He has had a good deal of experience and has given the matter great thought, and I think that Senator O'Farrell might agree to the suggestion that he has made. We are all most anxious to save animals that have to be killed from suffering, and when we consider that the humane killer is compulsory in a country like Scotland, which perhaps leads the world in the matter of the slaughtering of animals, I think we might safely leave it in the hands of the Minister and that he will do what is right. Senator O'Connor referred to one matter on which I would like to challenge him, and that is with regard to the killing of turkeys. We kill them by dislocating the neck, the quickest and most humane method, in the same manner as human beings are killed by hanging, so that there is no cruelty there.

I want to ask Senator O'Farrell one question. Why did he not include swine as well as sheep and cattle?

I am not a member of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, although I do not say that that is to my credit. I was not approached by any member of the Society in regard to this until after it was moved, and then only in support of it, so that to that extent it was not inspired; it was simply my own idea, which was a very obvious one, in view of the type of Bill we have before us. I am very much obliged to the Minister for the manner in which he has dealt with this question. I think he has approached it from an eminently reasonable point of view and that he has made a very helpful suggestion. The letter from the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals which he read was quite obviously written under a misapprehension of the scope of the Bill. I was speaking to a couple of members of the Society who approached me within the last week, and I had to enlighten them on the fact that this Bill was a Bill that applied to certain slaughterhouses only. That being the case, the whole argument about the hundreds of inspectors that would be required, the difficulty of enforcing the regulations, and so on, falls to the ground. For instance, under Section 24 you must have inspection in connection with the following matters in any case:—The manner in which animals the meat of which is intended for export are to be assembled and penned for slaughter—that is perpetual supervision; the manner of slaughtering such animals—that is supervision; the times at which slaughter may take place; the manner of dressing, cleaning, hanging, cooling and weighing fresh meat and offals intended for export; the preservatives (if any) which may be used in fresh meat or offals intended for export; and Section 25 contains a whole series of regulations, all of which will require continuous supervision on the part of Government inspectors, without the acceptance of this amendment at all.

A breach of any of these would involve penalties, and the introduction of this amendment of mine would only mean that the penalties would also apply in the case of a person who was found guilty of not using the humane killer after it had been made compulsory. There is always the possibility of the withdrawal of the certificate of registration from a registered slaughterhouse, and that is the very best means of causing the proprietors of these slaughterhouses to use the humane killer. Everybody has admitted in one form or other that the humane killer is preferable to the pole-axe, that it inflicts less cruelty, that it requires less experience, and that in every respect it should be used if at all possible. I accept the suggestion of the Minister, with the permission of the House. The Minister suggests this form of amendment:—

Section 24. At the end of the section to insert a new sub-section as follows:—

(2) Regulations made under this section in regard to the manner of slaughtering animals shall provide that all cattle shall, before being slaughtered, be effectually stunned by means of an efficient mechanically operated instrument of a type approved by the Minister and operated by a male person of not less than eighteen years who is certified by the Minister to be competent to operate such instrument

If the Minister is prepared to accept that, as I expect he is, I hope that the House will approve of it. I ask leave to withdraw my own amendment and to move this as a substitute.

Senator the Countess of Desart raised a point that I had in mind, and that is, of course, an important point. Senator Counihan met it by saying that it may be possible that Jewish meat will be killed in this country. I do not think that is likely. I know that there is at present no Jewish meat killed for export, and in view of the treatment it has to undergo I think it is absolutely certain that all Jewish meat must be killed in Birkenhead.

I am quite satisfied.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I second the new amendment.

Amendment put and declared carried.

Cathaoirleach

There is a motion standing in the name of Senator Gogarty to suspend the Standing Orders.

I will move it.

Does this refer to the four Bills on the Paper, or merely to the Agricultural Produce Bill?

Cathaoirleach

It refers to this Bill, to the Military Service Pensions Bill, to the State Lands Bill, and to the Illegitimate Children Bill.

Could we not take the Final Stages of all these Bills by agreement by means of several motions?

Cathaoirleach

It could be moved to suspend the Standing Orders in order to take the Fifth Stage of the Agricultural Produce Bill.

I second the proposal.

Question: "That the Standing Orders be suspended for the purpose of enabling the Fifth Stage of the Agricultural Produce (Fresh Meat) Bill, 1929, to be taken to-day."

Question put and agreed to.
Question—"That the Agricultural Produce (Fresh Meat) Bill, 1929, be received for final consideration and do now pass"—put and agreed to.
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