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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 18 Dec 1935

Vol. 20 No. 20

Land Purchase (Guarantee Fund) Bill, 1935—Committee of Privileges. - Message from the Dáil.

Consequent on proceedings in Dáil Eireann, a Committee of Privileges under Article 35 of the Constitution is required.
Dáil Eireann has this day passed the following resolution:—
That Deputies Conor A. Maguire, James Geoghegan and William Norton be elected to a Committee of Privileges to whom is referred the question whether or not the Land Purchase (Guarantee Fund) Bill, 1935, is a Money Bill.

I move:—

That Senators Blythe, Douglas and O'Hanlon be elected to the Committee of Privileges to which has been referred the question whether or not the Land Purchase (Guarantee Fund) Bill, 1935 is a Money Bill.

I move the following amendment:—

"To delete the words ‘Blythe, Douglas and O'Hanlon' and to substitute therefor the words, ‘Fitzgerald, Lynch and O Máille.'"

I second.

This House always claims to be the superior House in the Parliament of this State. This House also claims to be impartial in all its dealings and in all its actions. To-day we have an exhibition on both sides of the House——

Is this in order?

I must hear the Senator further before I can decide.

To-day we have an exhibition on both sides of the House of the impartiality of the superior House of Parliament in this State. I think that the action of this House to-day is one of the most scandalous that has ever taken place in it in showing up its partiality on Party principles. I am as much opposed to the resolution that comes from the other side of the House as I am to the amendment that comes from this side of the House. I only wish that I was in a position to defeat both of them and, if possible, to propose a Committee that would have some signs of impartiality.

Is there any objection, Sir, to the Senator who has just spoken proposing a further amendment and nominating himself if he chooses?

None whatever, Senator.

With all due respect to Senator O'Hanlon, the Senator who has just spoken does not want to be on any Committee, and it comes badly from the Senator, when the Seanad is on the point of execution, to suggest to do so now when he had an opportunity for five long years.

I am not going to propose the Senator.

Mr. Milroy rose.

Any Senator is entitled to speak. I am not going to hurry the matter in the slightest.

I only wish to say, Sir, that the procedure indicated by the proposer of the first motion must be regarded as absolutely essential if the matter which has to be considered is to get any kind of equitable or a judicial consideration. This procedure has been rendered inevitable and essential because of the action taken in the other House where that House, which will represent half of this Committee of Privileges, has sent as its quota to that Committee a quota that, if one may describe it in such words as Senator O'Neill's words compel us to use, has already prejudged the question at issue. In order to secure that the matter at issue shall be considered, it is essential that this House shall send to that Committee a quota that has before it the idea of having the matter considered. It is for that reason and for no other reason, that the course suggested by the motion from this House was taken.

I regret greatly that this question has arisen in the House. I think it is a very great pity that the other House—and I speak with the utmost respect—did not adopt the practice, as this is a constitutional question, of electing one representative from each of the political groups in that House. Instead of that, they have elected two members of the Government Party and one member of the Labour Party, who support the Government Party. Now, that, Sir, is very regrettable. It has happened, however, and, in order that there may be a fair tribunal, as far as having the same number on each side is concerned—the same political numbers on each side, although, really, politics ought not to enter into this question at all—it has become necessary in this House to propose the resolution which was moved by Senator Wilson. I am sorry that the question has arisen, but I put it to the House if it is not in the interest of fair play and decency that the three members who were named in that resolution should be elected.

I think, Sir, that there is a danger of the position being somewhat misunderstood. It has to be remembered that the signatures which had to be secured numbered, I think, 62 or 64 in the other House, and I think it was clearly an indication of the attitude of mind of the entire Opposition in the other House when these signatures were secured.

Not necessarily.

Well, that is a question of interpretation. It is reasonable, I think, to assume that those people who signed the contention that this was not a Money Bill had already made up their minds and, in the circumstances, I do not see how you would expect the Government in the other House to nominate people who had clearly indicated already their prejudgment in that way. Accordingly, they did what was reasonable in the circumstances, I think, and two Government nominees and a Labour representative were nominated on the panel. I am quite prepared to say that, in this House, if we felt that there was any reasonable chance of getting an unbiassed view from the Opposition here, we would be quite prepared to stand by it. I want merely to explain the reason why the constitution of the three representatives of the other House was made as it worked out. Obviously, the people who signed the declaration that this was not a Money Bill, or that the matter should be brought into question, had made up their minds already.

As one of those who allowed his name to be nominated for this Committee, I should like to reply personally to the remarks made by Senator Connolly. This is a constitutional matter. The persons who signed the declaration did not say that this was not a Money Bill. They asked that it should be referred to a Committee of Privileges. I consider it highly desirable that in this matter we should have a judicial decision. I admit that the matter is debatable. It is not a certain matter by any means. It is a matter in which there is room for two perfectly honest opinions, to my mind, and it is desirable that the matter should be decided by the judge who will have to preside over the Committee and, personally, I hope that will happen.

I would have preferred that we should have some members from each Party in this House and from each Party in the Dáil. I fear that, unfortunately, things being as they are, the matter may be a Party vote and, without making any reflections—and I do not think any Senator will accuse me of it in this case—I believe there would be a danger that, if you appointed six members of one Party, there might not be a judicial decision at all and that, to my mind, would be highly undesirable.

As I proposed three names, I wish to say, with regard to the three Senators concerned, that Senator O Maille is very well qualified to determine this question because, for many years he was Vice-Chairman of the other House; Senator Lynch is a lawyer of great learning and experience; and Senator Fitzgerald is a member of this House who has spoken very frequently and very sensibly in this House. Accordingly, so far as the personnel of the Committee which I propose is concerned I think there can be no reasonable objection to it.

Adverting to the remarks of Senator Connolly, in which he stated that, because 62 members of the Dáil signed this petition to set up a Committee, therefore, they had decided in their minds that this was not a Money Bill, I could just as easily remark to the Senator that those who did not sign could also be conceived by us as saying that this is a Money Bill. Therefore, that argument of his falls by the board. It is entirely with a view to having a judicial decision on the merits of the question that we on this side of the House have tried to bring about that that Committee will have on either side a proportionate representation of Opposition and Governmental members, and I have no doubt that the men we have selected are admirably suited for their task. Senator O'Hanlon has been LeasChathaoirleach for a period. Senator Douglas has also been Leas-Chathaoirleach and is very closely in touch with the Standing Orders. Senator Blythe has been a Minister for ten years. I contend that those three candidates, whom I ask you to select, are very well suited for the position and, if they are placed on the Committee, will do justice both to the other House and to this House.

With regard to what Senator Connolly and Senator Wilson said, stressing the advantages of both panels, let us assume for a moment that the panel in which Senator Wilson is interested is passed and accepted by this House. If there are three men on your side and three from the Dáil on the Government side, it would obviously devolve on the Chief Justice to make the final decision on the matter at issue. However, I am inclined to the view of Senator Brown. I think his suggestion a good one. There is no reason why, even for once, this House should not assert its independence of thought and action by not following what has been done in the other House. I suggest to Senators that, for once, they should take up a typically independent attitude, and say that on this question they will not follow the example of the other House but will nominate one from each Party on this committee. Senator Brown has suggested that and I do think his suggestion should be followed, but I suppose it is too much to expect that this House would do that in view of its past record, its past history and its partiality. I suppose that in this matter it will abuse the majority that it has by overthrowing us, and also abuse the opinions of the majority of the people in this country.

I think the Senator is a bit premature in saying that.

The position that we have to-day is this: that there is a provision in the Constitution put there purposely, I take it, in order to defend the minority. The minority in the other House has made use of that provision in order to table such a motion as we have before us to-day. With all due respect, I submit that the minority in this country, by doing that, has not only done itself a grave evil but that it has done a grave injustice to all minorities in the future. That provision was put in for the protection of minorities, but the minority on this occasion have hopelessly abused that provision by bringing forward a motion to decide such a simple matter as this. Perhaps simple is not the proper word to use.

Senators

Hear, hear.

At any rate it is obvious to anyone, certainly to anyone who has respect for constitutional procedure and usage, that "money" is written all over the Bill which is the subject-matter of this motion. Again I suggest to the minority that they ought to be very careful in using an Article in the Constitution put in for their special protection, and that they should not abuse the power which it gives to them as regards such a trivial matter as this is, because it is perfectly obvious to everyone that the Land Purchase (Guarantee Fund) Bill is a Money Bill.

This Article in the Constitution has been put in, as I have said, for the protection of minorities. They are people who are supposed to have great respect for the Constitution, but I suggest to them that in the action they are taking on this matter they are doing greater harm to themselves than they are to the Government. May I suggest to them that at this, the eleventh hour, they ought to leave personalities and Party politics out of this and take up an independent attitude for once by nominating to this committee one from each Party? If they do that we will vote for their motion.

I suggest to Senators that we ought to get down to rock-bottom on this. The Oireachtas of this country is elected on the principle of proportional representation. The Dáil is elected on that principle, and so were some of the members of this House. The remaining members of the Seanad were elected on the principle of proportional representation by the combined vote of the Dáil and Seanad. I suggest to Senators that we cannot have it both ways. When the Dáil was electing its representatives on this committee it should have given a fair show to all Parties in the Dáil. The Government did not do that because the President thought that the Seanad was gone and that he could set himself up in this country as an absolute dictator. The Seanad is not gone yet. In order to balance things up, it is our duty to-day to put on this committee three members of the Opposition.

'Se mo thuairim go mba ceart do lucht an Choiste seo a mbarúil a thabhairt do réir an chirt agus gan baint a bheith acu le ceisteanna poiliteachta. If I understand rightly the contention put forward by Senator Douglas and Senator Wilson, it is this: that the function of the three representatives on this Committee to be selected by the Seanad is to vote directly opposite to the way in which the Dáil representatives will vote, so that the onus of deciding the question at issue will be thrown upon the Chief Justice. I think that is a very wrong point of view to take. Anyone elected on the committee from this House ought to vote on the question at issue on its merits. It is one that ought to be above Party consideration. With Senator O'Neill, I deplore the fact that the Seanad is approaching this question in a Party spirit. A decision on this question ought to be given on the merits alone, and ought not to be influenced by Party considerations.

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 21; Níl, 29.

  • Boyle, James J.
  • Chléirigh, Caitlín Uí.
  • Comyn, Michael, K.C.
  • Connolly, Joseph.
  • Cummins, William.
  • Dowdall, J.C.
  • Farren, Thomas.
  • Fitzgerald, Séamus.
  • Foran, Thomas.
  • Healy, Denis D.
  • Honan, Thomas V.
  • Kennedy, Thomas.
  • Keyes, Raphael P.
  • Lynch, Patrick, K.C.
  • MacEllin, Seán E.
  • MacParland, D.H.
  • O Máille, Pádraic.
  • Phaoraigh, Siobhán Bean an.
  • Quirke, William.
  • Robinson, David L.
  • Ruane, Thomas.

Níl

  • Bagwell, John.
  • Barniville, Dr. Henry L.
  • Baxter, Patrick F.
  • Bellingham, Sir Edward.
  • Bigger, Sir Edward Coey.
  • Blythe, Ernest.
  • Brown, Samuel L., K.C.
  • Browne, Miss Kathleen.
  • Counihan, John C.
  • Dillon, James.
  • Douglas, James G.
  • O'Hanlon, M.F.
  • O'Rourke, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Dr. William.
  • Parkinson, J.J.
  • Duggan, E.J.
  • Fanning, Michael.
  • Garahan, Hugh.
  • Gogarty, Dr. O. St. J.
  • Griffith, Sir John Purser.
  • Hickie, Major-General Sir William.
  • Kennedy, Cornelius.
  • McGillycuddy of the Reeks, The.
  • MacLoughlin, John.
  • Milroy, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Joseph.
  • Staines, Michael.
  • Toal, Thomas.
  • Wilson, Richard.
Tellers:—Tá: Senators Fitzgerald and Robinson; Níl: Senators Wilson and Staines.
Amendment declared lost.

Am I in order in proposing another amendment?

There can be no further amendment.

Original motion put.

The Seanad divided: Tá: 29; Níl, 21.

  • Bagwell, John.
  • Barniville, Dr. Henry L.
  • Baxter, Patrick F.
  • Bellingham, Sir Edward.
  • Bigger, Sir Edward Coey.
  • Blythe, Ernest.
  • Brown, Samuel L., K.C.
  • Browne, Miss Kathleen.
  • Counihan, John C.
  • Dillon, James.
  • Douglas, James G.
  • Duggan, E.J.
  • Fanning, Michael.
  • Garahan, Hugh.
  • Gogarty, Dr. O. St. J.
  • Griffith, Sir John Purser.
  • Hickie, Major-General Sir William.
  • Kennedy, Cornelius.
  • McGillycuddy of the Recks, The.
  • MacLoughlin, John.
  • Milroy, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Joseph.
  • O'Hanlon, M.F.
  • O'Rourke, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Dr. William.
  • Parkinson, James J.
  • Staines, Michael.
  • Toal, Thomas.
  • Wilson, Richard.

Níl

  • Boyle, James J.
  • Chléirigh, Caitlín Bean Uí.
  • Comyn, Michael, K.C.
  • Connolly, Joseph.
  • Cummins, William.
  • Dowdall, J.C.
  • Farren, Thomas.
  • Fitzgerald, Séamus.
  • Foran, Thomas.
  • Healy, Denis D.
  • Honan, Thomas V.
  • Kennedy, Thomas.
  • Keyes, Raphael P.
  • Lynch, Patrick, K.C.
  • MacEllin, Séan E.
  • MacParland, D.H.
  • O Máille, Pádraic.
  • Phaoraigh, Siobhán Bean an
  • Quirke, William.
  • Robinson, David L.
  • Ruane, Thomas.
Tellers:— Tá: Senators Wilson and Staines; Níl: Senators Fitzgerald and Robinson.
Motion declared carried.

Will Senators Blythe, Douglas and O'Hanlon, who have been elected to the Committee of Privileges, kindly meet the Clerk in his room so that they may be put in touch with the President?

Barr
Roinn