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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 4 Mar 1936

Vol. 20 No. 28

Private Business. - Spanish Trade Agreement Bill, 1936— Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

By the commercial agreement, which was made on the 1st of April of last year, between the Saorstát and Spanish Governments, and which was subsequently presented to both Houses of the Oireachtas, the Saorstát undertook to provide by legislation for the protection of Spanish wines; in other words, to prevent the wrongful use of geographical applications in connection with wines so as to ensure that the wines exported from Spain would be protected in that regard, and also to ensure that the importation of these wines would be subject to the production of certificates of origin delivered by the competent Spanish authorities. This Bill is for the purpose of implementing that portion of the commercial arrangement to which I have referred. It is similar, in effect, to the Bill that was introduced in 1930 to protect the names of Portuguese wines arising from the commercial agreement made with Portugal in that year, with this difference, that the previous Bill protected the names of the Portuguese wines permanently, whereas under this Bill provision is made for the making of orders for the same purpose. The difference is due to the fact that the commercial agreement with Spain is of temporary duration only. Under Section 5 of the Bill, it is provided that any order made under it will not apply within a year from the date of the passing of the Bill to any wines or other liquors imported into the Saorstát before that date. That is for the purpose of giving ample time for the disposal of stocks of wines which were imported without a certificate of origin which becomes necessary for importation as soon as an order has been made under the Bill.

I think it is true to say that any measure introduced that gives us an opportunity of extending our trade is always welcome. However, one ought to be satisfied that such measures are going to be advantageous to our citizens. With regard to this agreement, I think it is true to say that up to the present, as a result of it, most of the advantages have gone to the people of Spain. Many of our people have suffered considerable disadvantages under it. I have no desire to say anything that would have the effect of creating difficulties, or of adding to the hardships of those who are trying to establish a trade between Spain and this country. The remarks which I propose to make are put forward for the purpose of getting those who are engaged in the trade to do something which up to the present they have not done. If they are not prepared to do what I think they should do, then I think the Minister should intervene and take steps to see that our people who are selling their products to Spain will get paid for them.

The position is this: we have been importing wines and oranges from Spain. I have had no experience of the wines. The experience I have had of the oranges was, that they were not very palatable. In the beginning they were anything but acceptable. They may be slightly better to-day. On the other hand, we are exporting eggs to Spain. Our purchases from Spain are much larger than the Spanish purchases from us, and I believe that we have paid for everything that we have purchased from that country. Unfortunately, our people who have exported eggs to Spain are not in that happy position. There are people who have had personal experience of selling eggs to Spain as far back as May, 1935, and they are still without their money. This trade in the export of eggs would not, I believe, have been entered upon at all by our people except for the fact that, as it was encouraged by the Government, it was considered to be a safe trade. Our people have sent thousands of pounds worth of eggs to Spain. They have not been paid for them. They now and again get £100 or so, but thousands and thousands of pounds are still due to them for eggs sent to Spain nearly 12 months ago.

In a case like this, where trade has been established between two countries on a sort of exchange basis, the people here taking wines and oranges and sending eggs to Spain, it seems to me that the Minister, instead of leaving our exporters at the mercy of the very unstable conditions that exist in Spain at the moment and that are likely to continue for some considerable time, should see that their position is safeguarded. The Government should see that, when Irish money is paid for Spanish goods, some arrangement is made whereby that money will be made available to pay immediately for the Irish eggs sent to Spain. The position at the moment is that, when people export eggs, there is neither Spanish nor Irish money available to pay for them. I have no doubt that this matter has been brought to the notice of Ministers. When the eggs are sent out of the country it is not easy, apparently, to have the money required to pay for them taken out of the Spanish banks. So far this trade agreement has been operated in a rather one-sided way, and is going to add to our unfavourable trade balance. I have no wish to press the matter further, but I think it is absolutely essential if this trade agreement is to continue and while you have the present unstable conditions in Spain, that a guarantee should be given to our exporters that they will be paid within a reasonable time for the eggs they send away. If something cannot be done along that line, then I believe the responsibility is on the Government to devise another type of agreement whereby the money that we pay for wines and oranges will be held in our banks until the debts due to our citizens for eggs have been cleared. I do not see why the Spaniards should get both the eggs and the money.

I desire to support the Minister in the attempt he is making to open up an alternative market with Spain. I quite realise that, in any country with the exchange situation as it is at the moment in Spain, difficulty will be experienced in getting payment for the Irish goods sent there. This question has been tackled in England and an exchange clearing house set up to deal with Spanish trade. Into that clearing house every pound in English money that is paid for Spanish goods has to be lodged or, alternatively, Spanish purchases in England have to be paid for in English money. I am sure that it is not beyond the powers of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to devise a similar exchange clearing house for the Free State. If the Irish people can dispose, as they are disposing, of their surplus eggs, that is of enormous help, because it is the surplus that kills the price. If our surplus supply of eggs is cleared, then our people will get the normal market value for their goods. I am sure, now that the attention of a Minister has been called to the matter, that we will have an Irish clearing house established and that our people will have no difficulty in getting paid for their eggs. At the moment, we are taking £80,000 worth of fruit from Brazil, but the exchange in Brazil is in such a chaotic state that the Irish trade with that country is at a stand-still. I mention that to show that we are doing much better with Spain than we can possibly do with other fruit-supplying alternative markets.

This is a very serious matter. It is serious in this way, that the dealers in eggs have to pay cash for them, and that unless there is a great deal of new money put into the business the trade will soon come to an end. I do not suppose that the egg-dealers in this country could put up enough money to buy Irish eggs and then afford to be out of their money for six months or more. They must get paid promptly for the eggs they export. Otherwise the trade will come to an end. Senator Parkinson has indicated that they have devised a plan in England to overcome the difficulty referred to by Senator Baxter. I think it should be possible for our Minister to establish some sort of a pool into which both sides would pay. The Minister could control it, and in that way help to safeguard the position of our exporters. Unless something of that kind is done, then this trade will inevitably come to an end.

Would the Minister say if there is a bounty paid on eggs exported, and if it is paid to the exporters?

The question of payment for exports to Spain is one which has given us some concern. Certain difficulties have arisen in that regard. Article 5 of the agreement with the Spanish Government provides that:

"The Spanish Government undertake to take all the measures necessary to ensure that the Spanish importers will be able to obtain the necessary foreign exchange for the payment of their purchases of Saorstát Eireann goods under conditions similar to those which apply to other countries enjoying most-favourednation treatment"

But, despite that article of the agreement, there has been delay in securing payment. I do not think there is any case of an exporter who exported eggs as long ago as May, 1935, and who, as stated by Senator Baxter, has not been paid for them. Nevertheless, the situation is not satisfactory. It may not be as easy for us, as it has been for the British Government, to establish a clearing house arrangement. From many points of view it would be a much simpler and a better arrangement to secure voluntary measures to enable payment to be made without the necessity for legislation; but if the situation should require it, legislation for the establishment of a clearing-house system will be introduced. The question whether that legislation should be applicable only to conditions affecting Spanish trade, or should be of wider scope, is a matter for consideration. Certainly, in present circumstances trading with a number of countries is made difficult by exchange complications, and it may be necessary for us to have legislation providing for the institution of a clearing-house system in respect of trade with a number of countries if world conditions do not improve.

I can assure the Seanad that the matter to which reference has been made has not been overlooked. At the present time it is receiving very close attention. I do not know that the statement that Spanish oranges were not very acceptable at the beginning is quite accurate. During the only period that any serious complaint was voiced in the Press or in the Houses of the Oireachtas concerning the quality of Spanish oranges, no Spanish oranges were, in fact, being imported. They did not become available until some time about the middle of November, while we had many complaints during August and July when Spanish oranges could not be bought. Out of some 300,000 cwts. of oranges last year, 60,000 cwts. came from Spain, so that it will be seen the total supply of Spanish oranges is only a small proportion of our total imports.

It is true that a bounty at a reduced rate is paid upon eggs exported to Spain. That is being done by us for our own purposes and is no part of the agreement with the Spanish Government. It is merely to keep the prices higher for producers of eggs and, in some measure, also to establish our eggs on the Spanish market. It is a market which offers very considerable possibilities. The prospects incidentally of a permanent trade are good, if the necessary arrangements can be made to secure it. However, the particular matter dealt with in this Bill is incidental to that agreement, and one which, I think, should commend itself to the Seanad. It is undesirable, from the point of view of the Spanish exporter, and also perhaps undesirable from the point of view of the importer, that wines should be imported under Spanish geographical trade names which are not Spanish. The purpose of the Bill is to make that impossible. We are doing that in fulfilment of our agreement with Spain.

I want to assure the Minister that the statement I made is correct, because I ascertained its accuracy before I made it.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, March 11th.
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