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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Apr 1936

Vol. 20 No. 33

Public Business. - Dáil Eireann Loans and Funds (Amendment) Bill, 1936—(Certified Money Bill).—Report and Final Stages.

Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

When the Dáil Loan was issued I took a very active part in collecting funds. At the time I was told that the Ward of St. Michan's, Dublin, was the best district in Ireland as far as subscriptions to the loan went. I have in my possession a book which the Department of Finance had as long as was necessary for the checking of subscriptions. This Bill is giving an extension of time for a refund of subscriptions to people in America. I have two loan certificates, signed "Micheál O Coileán, Minister of Finance," in the Government of the Republic, to the 1920-30 Internal Loan. I want the Minister to understand that there is nothing political about this, because one of the certificates comes from a supporter of his, and the other from a supporter of mine. When the time was extended for repayment of the American loan it should also have been extended for repayment of the Irish loan. I would have put in an amendment on the Committee Stage if I knew about this matter. I understand there are a few cases outstanding, and I imagined the Minister had power to deal with them. If we are paying the American subscribers, we ought to pay the subscribers at home, if the Minister can see his way to do so. I understand I am late in putting in an amendment now, but I think it is only fair that the claims of people in Ireland should be admitted. I know the trouble that people went to in this country to subscribe to the loan. At that time things were much better in America than they were here. Those who subscribed at home really made great sacrifices, and I ask the Minister sympathetically to consider the question of repaying them.

We have got to deal with the Bill to-day as the 21 days will have expired. An amendment could not be moved at this stage.

I understand that.

I am in great difficulty with regard to this matter. My personal sympathies are, of course, with the people who subscribed to the Dáil Eireann Internal Loan, but, as against that, I have a responsibility to the public and to the Exchequer. In regard to the Internal Loan the date for payment was extended from time to time so long as it was in the Minister's power to grant an extension by regulation, and the final date was definitely fixed. The Act would require amendment by the Dáil to deal with these cases. The matter was brought to my notice by a number of Deputies, some of them close associates of Senator Staines, and some great political and personal friends of mine, and while I was anxious to meet the case they put up I was driven to the conclusion that we must draw the line somewhere at some time. We have already given a considerable number of extensions. We have had great difficulty in connection with the work of repayment of the Dáil Eireann Loans. The Internal Loan has been going on for virtually over eight years, and we are in the position in which we cannot keep a staff and a Department going simply because people did not come along and make application within the final date.

It has been quite different in regard to the External Loan because the records there have been very complete and we shall close down definitely inside, at the latest, six or nine months from the passage of the Bill. The difference between the two cases is that whereas these people must have known that we were open to repay the Internal Loan over a period of years, and whereas that had been communicated and made known to them by debates in the Dáil and statements in the Press, they have not troubled to come along until now. In the circumstances in which we found ourselves, we felt compelled to say that the title of these people to secure repayment had lapsed. I do not know whether it would be possible for us to reconsider the position. I am afraid it will not, for the reason I have stated, that we have closed down the Internal Loan. The staff of the Department has been absorbed elsewhere and even if we reopened the matter, the difficulties in the way of securing clear proof to entitlement of repayment increase with the lapse of time. The original collectors disappear, the records are destroyed and people come along and put in claims which on examination, may be found to be very doubtful, if not entirely unwarranted. If they are unwarranted, you might think that it is easy to dispose of them, but once a person gets the idea into his head that he has a claim against the State for the repayment of any sum or for any purpose whatever, nothing will disabuse him of it. Even though, as I say, the title may be of the slenderest and proof of such a claim may in fact be virtually non-existent, nevertheless he will come along worrying Deputies, Senators and Ministers, and imposing burdens on Departments of State in dealing with correspondence and refuting claims which would make it impossible to carry on the work of administration. Accordingly, for that reason, I feel on the whole that it is in the best public interest not to reopen this matter. The last date fixed expired in 1934. There was widespread publicity given to that in the Press and elsewhere, and if between 1927 and 1934 people had not time to fish up these claims, furnish us with proof and ask for repayment, they have allowed the matter to go by default and we cannot do anything further in regard to it.

Would the Minister clear my mind on this point? I take it that the bond referred to is still good and that on the date named in the bond the promise given in the bond will be fulfilled? Will it carry 5 per cent. interest?

In so far as the Government mentioned in the bond is concerned, I have no doubt they will honour it.

When it matures.

When it matures. The position is that we have been redeeming these bonds before maturity.

Let them try it on the Stock Exchange.

Question put and agreed to.
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