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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 6 Jul 1939

Vol. 23 No. 2

Air Raid Precautions Bill, 1939—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be read a Second Time."

This Bill will enable us to organize precautions against air-raids. For the past few years we have been doing preliminary organization and training work, and for the last year or so we have been doing it somewhat more intensively. We have in the City of Dublin and elsewhere throughout the country some hundreds of men trained to the point at which they could take charge of air-raid wardens, first aid parties or decontamination squads and enable them to deal with the dangers of air-raids. Here in Dublin, the Dublin Corporation have taken certain steps and incurred certain expenses and this Bill will be retrospective to the extent that it will make legal the expenses they incurred and it will empower for the future local authorities to co-operate with the Government in taking precautions in their towns. The whole expenditure that we contemplate in the country will amount, roughly, to £500,000, and of that about £320,000 will be direct State expenditure on the provision of gas masks, decontamination equipment and additional fire-fighting appliances. That will leave about £180,000 to be borne by the State and local authorities. Of this £180,000, 30 per cent. will at least be borne by the local authority and perhaps more. We have linked the local authority with this particular item of expenditure in order to get their co-operation in keeping down expenses and avoiding an unnecessarily lavish type of precautions. This local authority fund, paid into by the State, will be spent on training air-raid wardens, organising shelters and first-aid posts and things of that nature which will not be very expensive if done by voluntary workers but which could mean a huge expense to the community as a whole if they were not done in a voluntary way but were paid for either by the State or the local authority. We have got to rely on the good sense and co-operation of the people throughout the various communities to have an organisation prepared in peace-times that will minimise the effect of air raids. I think that, without any vast expenditure here we could so minimise the effects of air-raids as to reduce greatly the temptation of any foreign power to inflict them on us. If we were not prepared, there would be a very big temptation indeed, because the result of even one rather small air-raid might inflict very vital destruction on the community and on the community's property, but, with a modest amount of expenditure of money and a modest amount of expenditure of time and energy on the part of the citizens, I think we can reduce that temptation to practically nil, because, with the community fairly well prepared, no air-raid would cause disastrous consequences.

This Bill, as I say, will give the Government and the local authorities power to spend the money and gives power to organise the people. There is really no necessity to go into the various sections in any detail because they are written in rather simple language. It is the first Bill and, being such, there are not very many cross references. It is the first Bill but I am afraid it will not be the last because if things get worse in Europe there are certain things that we are leaving optional on the various sections of the community that we would have to make compulsory. At the present time we are making it compulsory on certain named local authorities to make a scheme of air-raid precautions and that scheme is subject to approval or amendment by the Department of Defence. Apart from the half-dozen or so large towns which we propose to compel to carry out such schemes, we propose to have a nucleus organisation in the various counties which will enable them to co-operate effectively with the scheduled towns. For instance, there would be no use at all in blacking out the City of Dublin if the lights in the surrounding counties enabled hostile aircraft to mark down the city in relation to those lights. We hope the amount of money required to be spent by the various county councils in non-scheduled areas will be very small but the activities that they might have to carry out, while not costly, might be very vital. We are taking power to extend the scheduled districts and to lay them on the Table of both Houses of the Oireachtas. The same thing will happen in regard to the air-raid precaution schemes which we make compulsory.

Apart from the local authorities, we are taking power to give grants to certain factory owners and people who have large establishments of that kind towards the provision of air-raid shelters for their workers. That grant will amount to their rate of income-tax. We are also taking power to exclude as from valuation new structures to be used solely for the purpose of air-raid shelters or additions to structures which will enable them to be used solely for that purpose. Such new structures or additions will not be subject, therefore, to rates or calculable for income-tax purposes.

We are taking power to give grants, also, of 50 per cent. to certain public utilities or manufacturing organisations of such a character that their products would be vital. We are taking power to give them 50 per cent. towards such expenditure as they might make to enable them to carry on in the case of air raids. Take the Electricity Supply Board, for instance, or gas companies, or people like that; it may be necessary that they should put in extra equipment in order to enable them to carry on, or to lay aside certain equipment that would be used should their services be interrupted. They will get 50 per cent.

I think that covers the really essential parts of the Bill and I do not wish to take up the time of the House in going into more detail. If any Senator raises any question now or on the Committee Stage I will deal with it in detail.

Could the Minister tell us, of that £500,000 which he says the Bill will cost, how much of that money is to be spent on the provision of gas masks, approximately?

I really could not say offhand.

Not even approximately?

They will probably cost something between £100,000 and £150,000.

It is sheer waste of money.

I do not know about that. There are a lot of other people wasting money in that way.

We will be in the fashion.

I fully appreciate the difficulty the Minister is in over this whole Bill. In connection with a private establishment I have, in a small way, experienced a similar difficulty, that is, how far to go, having regard to what might happen and having regard to the expenditure involved. My feeling is that anything that is not essential should be put off. Anything of a permanent character has to be done, but a lot of the trimmings and details could safely be left until the emergency became more apparent. If, unfortunately, war should break out, it is inconceivable that we are going to be raided for the first fortnight or three weeks. We probably would not be raided for some months. By the time we receive attention a lot of experience will have been gained and it may be that we will find that it is too risky for a possible enemy to attempt to come and give us any attention at all.

I hope the Minister will be aware of the 100 per cent. war-mongers. It may be that they have got their ideas from the other side where the need is much more pressing. It is only natural, I suppose, that they would want to apply their 100 per cent. standard here, and that they would be averse from any modifications or any rough and ready improvisations. I hope the Minister will not do more than what is barely necessary at the start. He should not go spending money on anything that does not need to be done in a hurry. He should have his plans ready by all means. As I have said, we are likely to have at least a month's warning here before people will have to run certain risks. Even if you had a declaration of war to-morrow, I do not think there would be any danger of air-raids in Dublin within, say, a couple of days.

I suppose the Minister for Defence must be doing something, even though he may not be too clear of what is the right thing to do. I suppose that is a problem for Ministers of Defence everywhere, so that our Minister for Defence must be in the fashion. I was surprised by the answer he gave to Senator MacDermot's question about gas masks. What is the policy with regard to them? Where are they going to be used? Is it only the people in the cities who are going to get them? Are places along the eastern seaboard such as Drogheda, Dundalk and Wexford being taken into account at all? Would the Minister tell us something about his scheme for the use of gas masks, if there is a scheme? Is there any definite plan about the methods to be adopted to meet a possible air-raid attack?

I know, of course, it is difficult for the Minister to say exactly what he is going to do in every eventuality, but there are certain things that he ought to be clear about, and if the Minister and his Department are not clear about them, then the citizens cannot be clear. If it is felt that there is going to be a necessity for gas masks, then they ought to be available in the parts of the country and in the areas where it is thought they will be most needed.

The part of the Bill that concerns me most is that which applies to remote areas in the West and Midlands. If the people in those parts are expected to make a contribution towards a defence scheme which may have no application to their areas, then, surely they may very well say that in those circumstances they should not be asked to contribute. How does the Minister expect them to be satisfied to make a contribution to the rates levied by the local authority for the purposes of this Bill if the defence scheme has no application to their areas? The sum of money that is going to be spent on defence is no inconsiderable figure. We may have in this Bill possibly only the thin end of the wedge. It seems to me that what we find outlined in this Bill may look foolish and absurd to the people living on our hillsides, and away back in counties like Cavan, Leitrim, Monaghan, Mayo or Sligo. I would like to hear from the Minister what his plan is with regard to the application of this measure to those parts of the country.

The powers and duties of local authorities are set out in Section 10. Who is going to determine that it is necessary for a scheme-making authority to make a scheme Will the Minister consult with the local authority about that, or will he just issue an order telling the local authority to make a scheme and to raise a certain amount of money? If that is to be the procedure, while it may look all right to the Minister, I think it will cause considerable apprehension to ratepayers down the country and to people away back in the bogs. The Minister's whole plan with regard to the application of this Bill to the country ought to be laid before the House. We all realise that if the country is attacked a great many things may have to be forgotten, because self-preservation is the first law of nature. It will bring home to our people that, however valiant they are, they will have to set about meeting that attack, and the more prepared they are the better they can face it. They can only do that when they know what the Minister's plan is. If he has any clear plan in his mind, he ought to give it to the country. I think he has not given anything like enough information to the House as to the lines he is thinking on in the matter of defence.

Very considerable sums of money have been voted for the defence of the country. The taxpayers and the ratepayers are now going to be asked to give more pennies. Where are we going to stop? Personally, I think the Minister should face up properly to this whole question of defence. Additional provision for defence is being made in the Finance Bill which we had before us this afternoon. I believe it is going to prove very exasperating to people living in remote parts of the country if they are to be asked to make further contributions towards the expenditure outlined in this Bill. What will farmers and others living away back in the hills think of it? Many of them would be just as pleased to be in an air-raid as where they are to-day. I think that the consequences will be anything but satisfactory from the point of view of getting voluntary assistance. In my opinion, the people in the parts of the country to which this defence scheme will not be applied ought not to be asked to pay for it.

I am informed that the gas mask that is now in use will shortly become obsolete. I understand that no sooner is a gas mask made than some form of gas is made that makes the mask useless. I think that it would be rather inadvisable to lay in a large stock of gas masks at the moment, that it would be more advisable to delay purchasing these articles until the danger is almost upon us and we know exactly what we have to face. It appears to me that we get rather frightened about this possibility of air-raids in this country. At any rate, if air raids were to take place, surely no one would take notice of small towns in this country; they would seek out the fortified areas or the large manufacturing towns. Now, in this country, we have practically no fortified areas, apart from those on the coast, and we have no munition works or large factories making war material; and I think the parts likely to be subject to air-raid attacks are very few. It would, therefore, be advisable not to go to too much expense at the moment.

As Senator MacDermot remarked, a lot of the expense may be useless. That is quite possibly so. On the other hand, I suppose we have to take every precaution that we can not to be caught out. Still, it would be advisable to go slowly, and not to spend £150,000 or £200,000 on gas masks which may become obsolete in a few months.

I would like to know what steps the Minister has taken in regard to possible air attacks. I have seen rehearsals of the preparations for air raids and pictures of some of the damage caused by air raids on the Continent and it is easy to realise that if bombers dropped bombs they will utterly destroy buildings. I feel just as Senators do about these gas masks: they are horrible things to wear. If they are ineffective and do not work as they should, it would be a pity to waste so much money in purchasing them. We should go a little more slowly in this matter, as it is improbable that there will be air raids here without some kind of warning— we may even be given a week or a fortnight. The schemes for evacuation are excellent, but elaborate preparations in the way of shelters and gas masks should receive a little further consideration. It will involve such an amount of interference with ordinary civil quiet life.

I rise to support this measure and I must say that I am amazed at some of the speeches which have been made. It will be very interesting to see if we will have a division and, if we have, to see who will vote against the measure. Even Senator Goulding—whom I always regarded as a sensible man——

He is getting contaminated by sitting too near you.

He could be in a worse place—over near you. Even Senator Goulding suggests that it is ridiculous to spend so much money on gas masks. I cannot understand that.

How many gas masks are being made available?

I have not the exact figure.

Approximately?

It would be advisable to have several thousand over and above the number required rather than to be one short; and I am sure that if Senator Goulding were the man who was short he would be lucky if he survived the ordeal.

As to whether we are going to get any warning of an air raid several Senators have suggested that we are never going to have any such thing as an air attack on Dublin. I hope they are right, but I would certainly not like to take the chance, and I would not suggest that the Minister for Defence should take the chance. Probably the Minister for Defence has more knowledge than anybody else has, but nobody can avoid having some conception of the position if they read the papers during the last 12 months. It is amazing the suddenness with which swoops have been made in other places. They must know the air forces attached to the various countries. Anybody knowing that must at least anticipate that, if hostilities are to open in Europe at all, it is quite on the cards that we may have a very serious attack on this country even in the first couple of days. Senator Baxter suggested that some of the farmers would rather be in an air raid than in the position they are in at present. That, in my opinion, is a ridiculous fashion in which to treat a serious measure.

Though I do not know anything about an air raid or a gas attack, as far as I can gather it is something that it is absolutely the duty of the Government to do everything possible to protect our citizens against. I would like to see people taking a far more serious view of this kind of thing. Many people are ready to criticise the construction of air raid shelters. If we were to have an air raid here, it would probably take place in the big centres, and, regardless of what anybody may say to the contrary, I believe that people living in the farthest corner of Ireland are quite prepared to do their part and to take their share of the expense to defend the citizens of Ireland in any part of the country in which we may be attacked. I think the Minister is perfectly justified in the steps he is taking to defend the people.

I agree with Senator Quirke to the extent that I think the citizens of the remote parts of Ireland ought not to take a parochial view of a measure of national defence. Whether or not they would do so is a different question, but I agree that they ought not do so.

The difficulty we are in about this Bill is that there is a very general scepticism as to the effectiveness of what is likely to be done. Certainly, the Minister has not uttered anything here to-day that is likely to shake that scepticism. He has given us no sort of picture of what he really proposes to do to protect this country against air raids. He has not told us how many aeroplanes we have, how many chasers he is going to send out after the enemy bombers, how many aircraft guns he possesses or proposes to acquire; he has not indicated where the whole of this £500,000 is to be spent. As I rather gather—though the Minister has not clearly said so— it is to be spent on purely passive measures of protection. In other words, he has not indicated whether he depends on any degree on attack as a measure of defence, or whether it is just a question of creeping out of danger as far as we can.

I am far from being a blind optimist about the European situation I would say that the chances of a European war within the next few months are rather more than even. We all hope to Heaven there will not be such a war. But I must say that I am an optimist on the question of the likelihood of an air raid on this country. There are other objectives of so much more importance to a potential enemy of Britain that it would be a considerable time at least before any thought of bombing this country would enter the enemy's head. After all, I imagine that the desire on the part of an enemy of Britain would be to abstain from any action that would drive us into active and cordial co-operation in the war alongside Britain, and I imagine that a few bombing raids would do that very effectively. I doubt very much if anything that they are likely to gain by such raids would compensate them for that. Surely as regards our cattle trade, for example, they could operate to interfere with that as effectively by bombing Liverpool or Birkenhead as by bombing the City of Dublin, and they could do that without any infringement of the neutrality which, apparently, it is the policy of this country to preserve as long as possible.

One thing I would like to appeal to the Minister to do, if he can, in replying to this debate, is to give us a clearer picture of what action he is proposing to take. He is asking practically for a blank cheque for £500,000. I should like a little assurance that that is going to be used in a really intelligent way, and that, assuming that protection is required by somebody, that somebody will really get the protection. Certainly, I think that whatever is done to counter air-raids, considering what the resources of this country are, instead of being scattered over a wide field, where we cannot possibly afford to do anything effective, should be concentrated on the very few areas where one could imagine an enemy thinking it worth while to come.

With regard to gas masks, I believe the provision of gas masks for everybody, even in Great Britain, has been a colossal blunder. The very last form of air-raid that is likely to be made in this war, if it comes, is a gas air-raid. It is the least effective and most expensive, and the one that excites most moral reprobation of all the forms of air attack. I think it is the very last sort that is likely. The distribution of gas masks was decided upon in England more to save the Government's face than anything else, because it was something that was comparatively easy to do and that brought home to every citizen that the Government, was doing something. It was, therefore, thought that it would have a good moral effect on the public. As a matter of fact, it had a very bad moral effect, and I think the downfall of British diplomacy at Godesberg and Munich was not totally unconnected with the evil influence on British morale of the distribution of gas masks.

I had an example of it in my own house in London where, up till the day when a municipal official came around distributing gas masks, my domestics had announced that, even if I wanted to shut up the house and remove my own family entirely to Ireland, they were determined to stay on and do war work. A municipal official came around distributing gas masks, and, as a result, they all announced that, even if we were to stay on in London, nothing would induce them to do so. The general effect of distributing gas masks, especially on uneducated people, is enormously to add to their terrors, and to give them, as I think, quite a false picture of anything that is likely to take place. My objection to gas masks is not so much that, as Senator Goulding said, they might become obsolete. I think that would be a risk you would have to take, if the distribution was justifiable on other grounds.

That is the optimistic view, I suggest. What he suggested was that we would never need them.

No, he said that gas masks went out of fashion so quickly, owing to the invention of new gases, that we would soon have to get a different type. That, however, is not my objection to them. My objection is simply that I think they are very poor value for the money. If we want to spend £500,000 on precautions against air raids, I would save that particular £150,000 which is destined for gas masks, and apply it to other forms of precautions against air raids, because I honestly think that, especially in our relatively thinly populated country, the use of gas in enemy air raids is fantastically improbable.

I have every sympathy, like everybody else, with the Minister in the difficulties which this whole problem of defence produces for him at present. I think, however, it would be really a derogation of duty on the part of the Seanad, if it were to let the Bill go through without the most careful and far-reaching scrutiny, and I think it spoke rather badly, if I may say so, for the Dáil that this Bill was allowed to go through in almost a casual fashion, without any real downright criticism at all. I do not know whether I would be described as an optimist or an absurd person by Senator Quirke, but I believe, and I think that 99 per cent. of the people of the country, believe with me, that we stand in practically no danger at all, either in the towns or in the country, from air-raids in any prospective war. That being so, it is the nearest thing to lunacy for us to propose, in our present circumstances, to expend the enormous sum of £500,000 on preparations of this sort.

I am not a military expert by any means, but I have read a good deal about wars, about air-raids and about the possibility of air-raids in war, and so on, and, so far as I can understand, if there is going to be a European war, the great objective of the Powers that use the air weapon in such a war will be to strike terror into the civilian population. I cannot for the life of me see in what circumstances it would be of any value for any European Power to try to strike terror into the population of Ireland. It seems to me that there could be nothing more senseless, from a practical point of view, for a European Government at war with Great Britain than to imagine that they could affect the course of that war by creating a panic in Dublin, and that is the great use of the air weapon in war. It is not military destruction. I think the Spanish war went a long way towards proving that, from the military point of view, the effect of air-raids is comparatively slight.

The great objective in a war, if there is such a thing, will be to strike such terror into the population of Great Britain that they will be prepared to surrender in a comparatively short time. That certainly will be the primary object; the destruction will come secondary to that, and, to my mind, a long way secondary to that. I do not see what circumstances could arise in which it would pay any European Government to send over even one bomber in order to strike terror into the population of Dublin. Remember that if there is a war every ounce of petrol and every ounce of explosive in that war will be costly, and it will be the object of the Government hostile to Great Britain to see that the maximum possible value is got from every ounce expended.

The thing is bad enough if you apply it only to Dublin. It might be argued, in a rather fanciful way in my view, that Dublin, because it is an agglomeration, a large city with a lot of people, does stand in a certain amount of danger and that certain measures of protection should be taken, although, as I say, I fail to see in what circumstances there is any real danger at all even to Dublin. When you come to counties like Westmeath, Roscommon, Galway and Leitrim, to all of which it is proposed to apply this Bill, in Heaven's name how can anyone believe that the people living down in those counties are going to be subject to air-raids in any conceivable European war, and to be subject to air-raids to the extent that it would be worth the while of any Government to inflict the loss of one sixpence on the people of these counties? Here we are proposing to extract from the people in County Leitrim, County Cavan and County Roscommon, a great many of whom have not been able to eat meat more than once a week for the last two years, a lot of money to take precautions against dangers which only nightmares could cause us to fear.

We might as well spend a whole lot of money and set up very elaborate machinery to protect the people of Roscommon, Galway and Mayo from an outbreak of homicidal mania on the part of some of their own neighbours as set up machinery to protect them against air raids. In view of the financial position of the country, and in face of the expenditure that we are asked to undertake here, I think we should not allow this Bill to go through without a protest and a demand that a much fuller explanation should be given than has been given. There should be a much more elaborate inquiry as to our needs in case of war. If there is to be a European war in the future, we stand in far greater danger from other sources than we do in the matter of air raids. It would be much more pertinent if the Government would take steps to produce a united policy for general defence. If we are to be faced with a European war, we shall have to face dangers quite apart from air raid dangers, and these will come internally as well as externally. These are the dangers to which we should devote our attention. We should make sure that if such a situation arises we will have a Government which will represent the whole of our people to deal with that situation. If we do not do that, I believe that anything spent in precautions against air raids might as well be thrown down a drain because it will be entirely wasted.

I have heard that some consignments of gas masks that have already come in have had duty charged on them by the Revenue Commissioners. I do not know if that is true, but if it is, it is surely an extraordinary state of affairs, and it throws a queer light on our whole attitude towards these defence problems. A few days ago here we passed the Second Reading of a Bill to spend £45,000, and a capital sum of £600,000 was set aside to encourage people to come here from Blackpool.

Now we are going to spend another large sum. And these sums are to be extracted from people who are being mulcted of the last penny they have by way of taxation. It is not the income-tax payers who will have to pay the bulk of this money. It is not the wealthy people who will have to pay it. It is the poorest people in the cities and towns and in the country who will ultimately have to pay this money which we are proposing so lightheartedly to spend and all that to provide against a danger which is far less than the danger of being struck by lightning. I regard this Bill as a fantastic proposal and I would say that nothing like a sufficient reason has been presented to the House to warrant us on behalf of the people to whom we are responsible to spend money on this measure.

We may or may not have a war, but I think the chances are two to one in favour of war. If we do have a war we will have a panic. We will have very great panics in the densely populated areas. We will have the surplus population of another country coming over here. Much though I would like to hear the details of how the Minister proposes to spend this £500,000, it may be that the disclosure by the Minister might defeat the objects he has in view. We heard from Senator Goulding that gas masks have been rendered obsolete by modern methods. However, I would direct the attention of the Minister to the fact that there will be evacuations from the cities and large towns to the rural areas and there will be an influx of people into the country. In order to cater for these people it would be well that reserves of foodstuffs might be built up. There will also be the need of housing. Much already has been done in the country to provide housing; that will come in well in the case of a war breaking out. Provision should be made for building up stores of food. That should be provided for in any scheme. I think that would be far more important than the provision of gas masks. These, to my mind, are the most important things to which we should attend.

I would like, also, to support the Air Raid scheme. I am satisfied that in view of the international situation it would be very foolish of us to do nothing—to make no preparations to safeguard the people. Now such preparations are being made even in remote countries and countries far from the seat of war. I would like to suggest that, perhaps, the most effective precaution would be the installation of anti-aircraft guns. It is quite possible that aeroplanes when raiding towns and cities will swoop very low and do more damage thus than they otherwise would. I suggest that the Minister should instal as far as possible anti-aircraft guns along the eastern coast.

I have not the slightest intention of following Senators Tierney or MacDermot into debating European affairs. This is purely a technical Bill. I am not here to-day to ask sanction for the money. I did, however, give the Senators a general indication of the amount of money involved. Last someone might say that I was putting through a technical Bill without at all telling what it would cost, I gave a rough indication. Now, the present-day gas-masks may be obsolete just as the gas masks of 20 years ago are obsolete to-day. We do not know. What I am concerned with are not the present-day gas-masks or any other equipment we might have but the effectiveness of our organisation to keep some discipline amongst our people and to prevent panic. People dread the unknown more than anything else. If we have a certain number of people trained to identify the various gases in certain densely populated districts they will be the back-bone of the people in a time of crisis. If the unfortunate thing should happen that air raids might come about these people could stave off panic in the case of gas, and where ignorant people might think the gas was upon them. Now, the actual destruction caused by gas in the quantities in which it might be imported into this country would be very small. But if we were not able to cope with it, gas combined with, say, incendiary bombs, which people would normally deal with and put out, might cause the destruction of a vast amount of property.

I am not as great an expert as most of the Senators who have spoken on this subject to-day, but, in my opinion, we need not fear a pure gas attack in any eventuality. I could imagine a military commander who was given the job of destroying a city, when packing up with incendiary and high explosive bombs saying, "I will put in a few gas bombs to create a diversion." We do not propose either to buy and distribute or to store sufficient gas masks for all the people of the country. We have bought a few hundred thousand. That would be sufficient for our largest and most populous areas. We are endeavouring to get a number manufactured here, in addition. That would deal with a few of the cities and larger towns. We hope, in the purchase of these gas masks of home manufacture to bring into being reserve equipment which could be made to turn out further supplies of gas masks if a crisis were to bring about the necessity for them. I believe that gas masks are essential for preventing panic in case of an air raid.

They are much more likely to impede effective action in the case of an air raid.

Gas masks, coupled with a knowledge of gases, in which air wardens are being instructed, should operate to prevent panic. If it is necessary to use these masks, it is better that the people should know how to do so. The amount of money involved is very small.

£150,000.

How many millions are we spending on ordinary health services throughout the country in a year? After all, this is a health precaution. We hope the outbreak of the particular disease about which we are concerned will never occur but, if it does, I hope we shall be able to cope with it. I am not sufficient of an optimist to take responsibility for doing nothing, knowing the destruction that might be caused. Senator Tierney said that there was as much chance of our being struck by gas bombs as by lightning. My house was struck by lightning three times—on one occasion when I was in it. The second time it was struck, while I was lying in bed during a lightning storm I thought I was a fool not to put up a lightning rod for the sake of the small amount involved. The following morning I put it up. In the same way, these steps may not be an absolute safeguard but it is worth while to spend the small sum that we propose to spend in addition to the amounts expended for the protection of the public health.

Has the Minister made arrangements for fitting the people with these masks?

We have not gone that distance. We are training air-raid wardens. We had an air-raid precaution school under military instructors. They trained a few hundred other instructors who can train air raid wardens. Dublin Corporation issued an advertisement for air raid wardens who would take charge of districts throughout the city, and these wardens will finally deal with the fitting of the masks and the education of private individuals.

Is it intended to hand over the masks to private individuals?

No. We have the masks and these air-raid wardens will be trained in fitting the masks to individuals. It may be that an effort will be made to classify the various individuals in particular districts in the City of Dublin and give them numbered tickets so that they could go along to a store and ask, say, for a No. 6 mask.

Where? If there is a gas air raid, do I proceed to take a tram and drive to some place where a mask can be got?

I shall not follow that any further. We have not given the gas masks out to the people. We have them in central stores. If, in times of crisis, we feel that things are warming up a bit, we shall further distribute them throughout the city and, if there were an immediate crisis, an order would be given for distribution of the masks to individuals. At the present time, we have reached the stage where we have the masks in a central store. Senator Sir John Keane said I should not be led away so as to engage in 100 per cent. expenditure in regard to air-raid precautions. We are very far from 100 per cent. in the expenditure we propose and the precautions we are taking. We are doing the minimum necessary if we are to do our duty in preparing the people for a possible eventuality. To take such precautions as would render everybody perfectly safe from high explosives, gas and incendiary bombs, we should have completely to reorganise and utilise all our resources and energy.

We could not do it even then.

It could be done over a number of years if the people were prepared to accept the standard of living necessary, but I do not think that that would be worth while. It is not worth while living if life is not worth living, or if we should have to take such precautions against dying as would render life not worth living. In the modern world, however, we should, I think, take some steps to stave off an air-raid. The better we are able to deal with the results of an air-raid, the more likely we are to be left alone. Senator MacDermot and Senator Tierney said that nobody would make an air-raid here in order to strike terror or panic into our people. There may be something in that, but the chance of such a raid will be rendered less the better we are able to cope with the results of such an attack, if attempted.

Various Senators asked what other precautions besides these passive precautions we were taking against air raids. That does not come into this Bill at all. The military precautions, active precautions, are in a different category altogether. We are, however, taking such steps as we think the country can afford to actively resist air raids if they should come. We have a certain number of anti-aircraft guns and more on order; we have a certain number of aircraft and more on order; but even if we had all the aircraft at the disposal of one of the Continental Powers and all the anti-aircraft guns, you could not guarantee that a bombing raid would not come through. Therefore, we still come down to the individuals on the ground, who will more or less have to look after themselves. All we want to do is to teach the community to look after itself and to take care of itself— to get out of harm's way as best it can. We are not going to ask the people of County Leitrim to spend any vast sum of money.

There is a schedule here of towns where we propose to put fairly intensive precautions into operation, that is, Dublin, Limerick, Cork, Waterford, Bray, Cobh, Drogheda, Dundalk, Dun Laoghaire and Wexford. Apart from those, very little money will be required, but, as I say, there would be no use in dimming lights in Dublin if the lights in County Dublin were not dimmed, or if some of the lights in Meath were not dimmed. There are certain little things that will have to be done throughout the country if a signal is given that an air raid is coming. There are certain other things, such as fire apparatus, that are badly required even for peace-time purposes, that should be organised so as to put the temptation out of anybody's way of attacking a town, knowing that it will be destroyed if only a few incendiary bombs are dropped on it. All that we contemplate asking the county councils to do would not amount to a decimal point of a penny in the rates.

Why ask them at all if it is so small? Why bother with it at all?

If we do not ask them to contribute they will be asking us for precautions. Senator Baxter may be pretty easy in his mind that we are not going to force them to pay much in the rates, because whatever they pay in the rates the State funds will have to bear twice as much. You have the assurance, from the governmental point of view, that they will not be anxious to do more in air-raid precautions than is absolutely necessary because they would be paying twice as much as the local authority. The State has to safeguard itself against being asked to undertake unnecessary works in counties or towns or villages in which there is very little danger of anything happening.

The Minister spoke of a schedule of cities. I only see one schedule in my copy of the Bill.

There is a schedule of urban areas. The towns I have mentioned, Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford, are also being covered as well as this schedule.

But they are not in the schedule.

They are in the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 11th July.
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